If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The mere fact that one is being proposed is the best reason to not want one.
It shouldn't be about winning or losing, but about delivering the best result for the country. A decision was taken three years ago that is turning into a disaster and increasingly looking like a mistake. Now we have more details it is only reasonable to ask people whether they wish to proceed with it.
It's not the decision that was a disaster - it's the implementation.
A referendum on that would be a General Election.
A GE is not a referendum!
A GE is to elect a government. And in a referendum every vote is given the same weight, unlike in the FPTP parliamentary election.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
We already won, three years ago. And nothing has been done. Why wait longer with the added risk of losing what we have?
What have you got? May's deal that Parliament won't vote for, a unicorn No Deal option Parliament doesn't want and ???
Parliament should not have been asked. That is the entire reason for this mess
No, it's the people who should not have been asked.
I think MP's forget who they are , servants of the people but they are only serving themselves not the people , they think the are the plebs too thick to understand. Time to dissolve this wretched bunch of expense grabbing, sleazy, hypocritical liars.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
The view of many Leavers is summed up by Isam on a recent post : "We won". Basically everyone else can go and screw themselves, we want to enjoy our pyrrhic victory, whatever the consequences. Not the best way to run a so-called democracy
I know it’s an old fashioned thing, but in competitions there are winners and losers. There is nothing wrong in the winners wanting their reward
I’ve never said any such thing about the losers, but the best way to run a so called democracy is to act on the results of democratic elections, not ignore them
You cannot claim that the result of the election has been ignored: it has dominated politics for the last couple of years. That's hardly 'ignoring'.
The question is whether it's deliverable ...
It's not deliverable by the current PM.
Con MPs are to blame - they should have ditched her before Xmas - huge mistake not to.
Not too late though..
That doesn't mean it is, or was, deliverable by anyone else, either. There just is an unwillingness in parliament to compromise, and I don't buy the bullshit that a true beleaver automagically would have found the yellow brick road to getting it past parliament.
Jeremy Corbyn is a lifelong conviction socialist politician. He has not changed his mind on any political principle of importance since he was 17. On a personal level he has his flaws but is fundamentally a decent enough person. He is not possessed of a truly bad character.
Donald Trump has no principles at all. He is about nothing but self-aggrandizement. He would have masqueraded as a liberal if he thought there were more votes in that. He is driven purely by personal vanity and a hatred of Barack Obama. He is petty, mean spirited, small minded, and he panders to the worst in human nature. He is, in summary, an utterly repulsive creature with no redeeming features whatsoever.
The British Trump? Thankfully there isn't one and let us hope it stays that way.
As Cyclefree points out, it is not their widely different characters which are the point of the article; rather the troubling things which their very different politics have in common.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
There's also the indisputable fear that (say) a 51-49 remain result would be insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and would immediately lead into calls for a third go. It would rip a badly torn country in half
There's also the indisputable problem that a 52-48 leave result was insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and immediately led to calls for a second go. It has already ripped a badly torn country in half.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
There's also the indisputable fear that (say) a 51-49 remain result would be insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and would immediately lead into calls for a third go. It would rip a badly torn country in half
There's also the indisputable problem that a 52-48 leave result was insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and immediately led to calls for a second go. It has already ripped a badly torn country in half.
I don't dispute that, so mitigating the damage rather than cutting another limb off seems sensible
The ERG amongst many are whipping up a betrayal narrative , using dangerous rhetoric . They have decided to view Mays deal as not proper Brexit . They have spent 4 months trashing it and now only a complete rupture with the EU will satisfy them.
They frame no deal now as what 17 million people wanted when it’s clear that was not the case in 2016 . The chaos and current impasse is down to them and not Remainers.
The ERG knew there was no real appetite for what they wanted so they kept schtumm during the referendum campaign and went along with the idea that there would be an easy deal, Norway was an option, No Deal was Project Fear etc. The y never had any real intention of going along with it. They were happy to let Farage reel in leavers on the immigration issue. Stage 1 of their project was to get a leave majority by hook or by crook.
Once they had the victory in the bag they have sought to usurp the result for their own purposes. I suspect that that was always the plan, it was dishonest and deserves to be defeated.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The mere fact that one is being proposed is the best reason to not want one.
It shouldn't be about winning or losing, but about delivering the best result for the country. A decision was taken three years ago that is turning into a disaster and increasingly looking like a mistake. Now we have more details it is only reasonable to ask people whether they wish to proceed with it.
It's not the decision that was a disaster - it's the implementation.
A referendum on that would be a General Election.
A GE is not a referendum!
A GE is to elect a government. And in a referendum every vote is given the same weight, unlike in the FPTP parliamentary election.
The government is rubbish - we need a new one.
Agreeed, but a GE would not be a referendum on Brexit.
I think MP's forget who they are , servants of the people but they are only serving themselves not the people , they think the are the plebs too thick to understand. Time to dissolve this wretched bunch of expense grabbing, sleazy, hypocritical liars.
That seems manifestly untrue. You only have to listen to politicians' speeches on all sides. They are wrestling with how to discharge their duties to implement a policy that they don't necessarily agree with but mostly feel an obligation to carry out.
The only group without any realism are the hardline Leavers who are choosing to interpret the referendum result as a mandate for a highly disruptive form of Brexit that was explicitly disavowed by them before the referendum was held.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
Sell another referendum to someone who won the last one three years ago and has yet to see the result implemented.
The mere fact that one is being proposed is the best reason to not want one.
It shouldn't be about winning or losing, but about delivering the best result for the country. A decision was taken three years ago that is turning into a disaster and increasingly looking like a mistake. Now we have more details it is only reasonable to ask people whether they wish to proceed with it.
It's not the decision that was a disaster - it's the implementation.
A referendum on that would be a General Election.
A GE is not a referendum!
A GE is to elect a government. And in a referendum every vote is given the same weight, unlike in the FPTP parliamentary election.
The government is rubbish - we need a new one.
Agreeed, but a GE would not be a referendum on Brexit.
It will be on what ever the voters want it to be on.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
The view of many Leavers is summed up by Isam on a recent post : "We won". Basically everyone else can go and screw themselves, we want to enjoy our pyrrhic victory, whatever the consequences. Not the best way to run a so-called democracy
I know it’s an old fashioned thing, but in competitions there are winners and losers. There is nothing wrong in the winners wanting their reward
I’ve never said any such thing about the losers, but the best way to run a so called democracy is to act on the results of democratic elections, not ignore them
You cannot claim that the result of the election has been ignored: it has dominated politics for the last couple of years. That's hardly 'ignoring'.
The question is whether it's deliverable ...
It's not deliverable by the current PM.
Con MPs are to blame - they should have ditched her before Xmas - huge mistake not to.
Not too late though..
That doesn't mean it is, or was, deliverable by anyone else, either. There just is an unwillingness in parliament to compromise, and I don't buy the bullshit that a true beleaver automagically would have found the yellow brick road to getting it past parliament.
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
There's also the indisputable fear that (say) a 51-49 remain result would be insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and would immediately lead into calls for a third go. It would rip a badly torn country in half
There's also the indisputable problem that a 52-48 leave result was insanely damaging to politics, public order and harmony, just about everything and immediately led to calls for a second go. It has already ripped a badly torn country in half.
I don't dispute that, so mitigating the damage rather than cutting another limb off seems sensible
There is quite a lot new information now about what a Brexited Britain looks like and what the trade offs might be.
Mr. Divvie, do you object to Aussies calling us poms?
*sighs*
I do wonder if you're being contrary just for the sake of it.
Couldn't give a feck. However I imagine you do on the 'gammon is racist' metric, since it refers 'to the fact that the harsh Australian sun could turn British immigrants' skin pomegranate red'.
I think MP's forget who they are , servants of the people but they are only serving themselves not the people , they think the are the plebs too thick to understand. Time to dissolve this wretched bunch of expense grabbing, sleazy, hypocritical liars.
That seems manifestly untrue. You only have to listen to politicians' speeches on all sides. They are wrestling with how to discharge their duties to implement a policy that they don't necessarily agree with but mostly feel an obligation to carry out.
The only group without any realism are the hardline Leavers who are choosing to interpret the referendum result as a mandate for a highly disruptive form of Brexit that was explicitly disavowed by them before the referendum was held.
Exactly. And it is precisely because of this second point that I think there ought to be a second vote on whether we want to go ahead on this basis.
One Matt in Hancock and the world's your oyster The bars are temples but the pearls ain't free You'll find a god in every Tory cloister And if you're lucky then the god's a she I can feel Theresa sliding up to me
I have to say I am very impressed with Yvette Cooper and compare and contrast her responsible attitude with Mark Francois furious response to the ERG defeat quoting Jesus saying
'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'
I had no idea that my party contained so many unpleasant mps
I made the same point downthread Big_G. A Labour party led by Cooper would probably be in power by now, let alone out of sight in the polling.
I am not so sure, she is capable but in the electorate's current mood for populism Cooper might get squeezed
She has no hope, her last attempt was pathetic and when a cabinet minister she was totally useless.
Do you prefer Coffee or tea Yvette
Yvette - well they both have their merits
Jess Philips: [tears in eyes] "this government's failure to chose for me is hurting real people, do you not care about how your inability to help me make up my mind is harming people out there"
If Theresa May agrees to a second referendum she will have successfully destroyed the Conservative Party. It will simply implode. I don't know if Philip Hammond was authorised by May to suggest second referendum, but would not surprise me if he was. FWIW According to Guido a government source has told him nothing is off the table except revoke.
The sense of utter betrayal this will create in the country will divide this nation forevermore, and resentment for the EU will grow and grow
And if we Remain, either because we revoke or because Brexit is in name only, then a large chunk of this country will lay every one of our country's ills at the failure of politicians to deliver a "proppa Brexit".....
I am not keen on another referendum for various reasons, but why are Leave supporters so terrified of one? Surely, they have the support of the will-o-the-people, and that is an absolute?
You know the answer. They worry that the people - or enough of them - may have changed their mind, in part because of the utter incompetence displayed over recent months by Leavers.
The view of many Leavers is summed up by Isam on a recent post : "We won". Basically everyone else can go and screw themselves, we want to enjoy our pyrrhic victory, whatever the consequences. Not the best way to run a so-called democracy
I know it’s an old fashioned thing, but in competitions there are winners and losers. There is nothing wrong in the winners wanting their reward
I’ve never said any such thing about the losers, but the best way to run a so called democracy is to act on the results of democratic elections, not ignore them
If people want it now they see it, they can have it. If they don't, not. That is the way we are heading.
Mr. Divvie, do you object to Aussies calling us poms?
*sighs*
I do wonder if you're being contrary just for the sake of it.
Couldn't give a feck. However I imagine you do on the 'gammon is racist' metric, since it refers 'to the fact that the harsh Australian sun could turn British immigrants' skin pomegranate red'.
It's a good job then that God spares the Scots much sight of the sun....
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
"‘There’s this massive disengaged centre that the elite would have us think are just not interested in politics. That is rubbish. They have never been more connected. They are just waiting to be set on fire by good, competent, modern, centre, centre-right aspirational future politics. It’s really exciting. I honestly believe it will be like dropping a match into petrol. They want to be engaged, they want something to vote for. But we have to go and earn it.’ The last election, he says, was a case study in what not to do. ‘You can’t just go around saying: “Did you know about Jeremy Corbyn and the IRA?” Everyone was like: “Yes, all right, it sounds bad. But Granny’s operation has been cancelled for the third time, what are you actually going to do about that?”’"
I think MP's forget who they are , servants of the people but they are only serving themselves not the people , they think the are the plebs too thick to understand. Time to dissolve this wretched bunch of expense grabbing, sleazy, hypocritical liars.
That seems manifestly untrue. You only have to listen to politicians' speeches on all sides. They are wrestling with how to discharge their duties to implement a policy that they don't necessarily agree with but mostly feel an obligation to carry out.
The only group without any realism are the hardline Leavers who are choosing to interpret the referendum result as a mandate for a highly disruptive form of Brexit that was explicitly disavowed by them before the referendum was held.
On the remain side, Ken Clarke has put forward proposals to break the logjam, but what of Dominic Grieve. He's said he finds all forms of Brexit unacceptable ? At least near me, Mann, Flint and Barron are trying to do the right thing on the Labour benches.
I have to say I am very impressed with Yvette Cooper and compare and contrast her responsible attitude with Mark Francois furious response to the ERG defeat quoting Jesus saying
'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'
I had no idea that my party contained so many unpleasant mps
I made the same point downthread Big_G. A Labour party led by Cooper would probably be in power by now, let alone out of sight in the polling.
I am not so sure, she is capable but in the electorate's current mood for populism Cooper might get squeezed
She has no hope, her last attempt was pathetic and when a cabinet minister she was totally useless.
Do you prefer Coffee or tea Yvette
Yvette - well they both have their merits
Jess Philips: [tears in eyes] "this government's failure to chose for me is hurting real people, do you not care about how your inability to help me make up my mind is harming people out there"
Jeremy Corbyn: The first gooseberries are coming on nicely and I've chitted the potatoes for planting
ON topic (slightly) the question is what makes populists popular?
Essentially, it's saying the things people want to hear - in that respect, our biggest populist by some way is Boris Johnson. He tailors whatever he says to the audience to whom he is speaking. They love it and they love him because he articulates what they themselves want to articulate but don't feel empowered or enabled so to do.
A populist has no problem telling two different audiences two different things and the coherence is there is always someone or something else to blame. Crudely - "you can't make profits, it's those greedy workers demanding too much money" is also "you can't afford to make ends meet, it's those greedy capitalists making too much money from you". Two audiences, two different messages and yet the same message.
Populism flourishes when there are actual societal problems - when the existing economic model isn't working for the many and when, as a result, the many feel no one represents them and no one listens to them. For those scared of change, the populist tells you what you want to hear. If you want hope, the populist will dish it out by the bucketful but it's not the Obama-type message of hope, this is the negative hope - "elect me, I'll sort out those capitalists/workers/immigrants (delete as appropriate)".
This is the hope tainted with violence and fear where change comes from a beating or two or a repressive new law.
For all the efforts of those on here and elsewhere who defend capitalism to the hilt, the fact is the current economic model isn't working for many people who find themselves trapped in low-paying and let's be honest, soul destroying employment at the bottom end of the service sector. Some on here rejoice at the numbers in work but what that means is never properly discussed. The people I see on the tube at 7am aren't relishing in the joys of capitalism, they are surviving. We must do better.
I have to say I am very impressed with Yvette Cooper and compare and contrast her responsible attitude with Mark Francois furious response to the ERG defeat quoting Jesus saying
'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'
I had no idea that my party contained so many unpleasant mps
I made the same point downthread Big_G. A Labour party led by Cooper would probably be in power by now, let alone out of sight in the polling.
I am not so sure, she is capable but in the electorate's current mood for populism Cooper might get squeezed
She has no hope, her last attempt was pathetic and when a cabinet minister she was totally useless.
Do you prefer Coffee or tea Yvette
Yvette - well they both have their merits
Jess Philips: [tears in eyes] "this government's failure to chose for me is hurting real people, do you not care about how your inability to help me make up my mind is harming people out there"
What does ref mean? Does it mean re running the last one? Does it mean remain or leave?
No it doesn’t have to.
“A withdrawal bill has passed parliament, do you wish to leave the EU under these terms yes or no?”
Where it is explicit no is not remain merely changing the withdrawal bill and trying again.
A No result wouldn’t happen anyway, because yes would win comfortably. Whatever ideological factors there in a such a question concerning the type of leave is not brexity enough or the best deal is the current deal would be slaughtered by the populations utter weariness with the argument and fear of prolonging it with a no. Hence why national plebiscites are beloved by fascists.
Not that I am saying such a fascist approach as the ref above is bad. I am actually endorsing the ref above as our best way out of this! And argue with me at your peril, because what I have described here is exactly what is going to happen, complete with the comfortable yes win.
What does ref mean? Does it mean re running the last one? Does it mean remain or leave?
No it doesn’t have to.
“A withdrawal bill has passed parliament, do you wish to leave the EU under these terms yes or no?”
Where it is explicit no is not remain merely changing the withdrawal bill and trying again.
A No result wouldn’t happen anyway, because yes would win comfortably. Whatever ideological factors there in a such a question concerning the type of leave is not brexity enough or the best deal is the current deal would be slaughtered by the populations utter weariness with the argument and fear of prolonging it with a no. Hence why national plebiscites are beloved by fascists.
Not that I am saying such a fascists approach as the ref above is bad. I am actually endorsing the ref above as our best way out of this! And argue with me at your peril, because what I have described here is exactly what is going to happen, complete with the comfortable yes win.
There is no way we are ever going to go through the grief of another referedum where one of the answers doesn't resolve the matter. Nor would the EU accept this. It is Deal or Remain.
Mr. Divvie, do you object to Aussies calling us poms?
*sighs*
I do wonder if you're being contrary just for the sake of it.
Couldn't give a feck. However I imagine you do on the 'gammon is racist' metric, since it refers 'to the fact that the harsh Australian sun could turn British immigrants' skin pomegranate red'.
It's a good job then that God spares the Scots much sight of the sun....
Thankfully the ever inventive English find other contexts to think up 'light-hearted mockery'.
Porridge w*g is my particular favourite, though Haggistani is one I was recently tickled by.
I have to say I am very impressed with Yvette Cooper and compare and contrast her responsible attitude with Mark Francois furious response to the ERG defeat quoting Jesus saying
'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'
I had no idea that my party contained so many unpleasant mps
I made the same point downthread Big_G. A Labour party led by Cooper would probably be in power by now, let alone out of sight in the polling.
I am not so sure, she is capable but in the electorate's current mood for populism Cooper might get squeezed
She has no hope, her last attempt was pathetic and when a cabinet minister she was totally useless.
Do you prefer Coffee or tea Yvette
Yvette - well they both have their merits
Jess Philips: [tears in eyes] "this government's failure to chose for me is hurting real people, do you not care about how your inability to help me make up my mind is harming people out there"
I have to say I am very impressed with Yvette Cooper and compare and contrast her responsible attitude with Mark Francois furious response to the ERG defeat quoting Jesus saying
'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'
I had no idea that my party contained so many unpleasant mps
I made the same point downthread Big_G. A Labour party led by Cooper would probably be in power by now, let alone out of sight in the polling.
I am not so sure, she is capable but in the electorate's current mood for populism Cooper might get squeezed
She has no hope, her last attempt was pathetic and when a cabinet minister she was totally useless.
Do you prefer Coffee or tea Yvette
Yvette - well they both have their merits
Jess Philips: [tears in eyes] "this government's failure to chose for me is hurting real people, do you not care about how your inability to help me make up my mind is harming people out there"
Mr. Divvie, do you object to Aussies calling us poms?
*sighs*
I do wonder if you're being contrary just for the sake of it.
Couldn't give a feck. However I imagine you do on the 'gammon is racist' metric, since it refers 'to the fact that the harsh Australian sun could turn British immigrants' skin pomegranate red'.
It's a good job then that God spares the Scots much sight of the sun....
Thankfully the ever inventive English find other contexts to think up 'light-hearted mockery'.
Porridge w*g is my particular favourite, though Haggistani is one I was recently tickled by.
Nothing will ever top the 'Waffen Yes Yes' and the 'Yestapo.'
What does ref mean? Does it mean re running the last one? Does it mean remain or leave?
No it doesn’t have to.
“A withdrawal bill has passed parliament, do you wish to leave the EU under these terms yes or no?”
Where it is explicit no is not remain merely changing the withdrawal bill and trying again.
A No result wouldn’t happen anyway, because yes would win comfortably. Whatever ideological factors there in a such a question concerning the type of leave is not brexity enough or the best deal is the current deal would be slaughtered by the populations utter weariness with the argument and fear of prolonging it with a no. Hence why national plebiscites are beloved by fascists.
Not that I am saying such a fascists approach as the ref above is bad. I am actually endorsing the ref above as our best way out of this! And argue with me at your peril, because what I have described here is exactly what is going to happen, complete with the comfortable yes win.
There is no way we are ever going to go through the grief of another referedum where one of the answers doesn't resolve the matter. Nor would the EU accept this. It is Deal or Remain.
You are not listening. IT DOES RESOLVE IT. and we move on
I have to say I am very impressed with Yvette Cooper and compare and contrast her responsible attitude with Mark Francois furious response to the ERG defeat quoting Jesus saying
'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'
I had no idea that my party contained so many unpleasant mps
I made the same point downthread Big_G. A Labour party led by Cooper would probably be in power by now, let alone out of sight in the polling.
I am not so sure, she is capable but in the electorate's current mood for populism Cooper might get squeezed
She has no hope, her last attempt was pathetic and when a cabinet minister she was totally useless.
Do you prefer Coffee or tea Yvette
Yvette - well they both have their merits
Jess Philips: [tears in eyes] "this government's failure to chose for me is hurting real people, do you not care about how your inability to help me make up my mind is harming people out there"
I think MP's forget who they are , servants of the people but they are only serving themselves not the people , they think the are the plebs too thick to understand. Time to dissolve this wretched bunch of expense grabbing, sleazy, hypocritical liars.
That seems manifestly untrue. You only have to listen to politicians' speeches on all sides. They are wrestling with how to discharge their duties to implement a policy that they don't necessarily agree with but mostly feel an obligation to carry out.
The only group without any realism are the hardline Leavers who are choosing to interpret the referendum result as a mandate for a highly disruptive form of Brexit that was explicitly disavowed by them before the referendum was held.
Somewhat one-sided. I don't sense a whole lot of wrestling happening on the Labour benches, other than on how to not get blamed for whatever ultimately happens.
I have to say I am very impressed with Yvette Cooper and compare and contrast her responsible attitude with Mark Francois furious response to the ERG defeat quoting Jesus saying
'Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do'
I had no idea that my party contained so many unpleasant mps
I made the same point downthread Big_G. A Labour party led by Cooper would probably be in power by now, let alone out of sight in the polling.
I am not so sure, she is capable but in the electorate's current mood for populism Cooper might get squeezed
She has no hope, her last attempt was pathetic and when a cabinet minister she was totally useless.
Do you prefer Coffee or tea Yvette
Yvette - well they both have their merits
Jess Philips: [tears in eyes] "this government's failure to chose for me is hurting real people, do you not care about how your inability to help me make up my mind is harming people out there"
Jess me me me me me me me Phillips
Whose side are you on BJ?
Leaves.The Many.
Jess is not the worst Lab MP but she loves talking about Jess too much for me.
When was the last sentence she used without me or my in it?
Mr. Divvie, do you object to Aussies calling us poms?
*sighs*
I do wonder if you're being contrary just for the sake of it.
Couldn't give a feck. However I imagine you do on the 'gammon is racist' metric, since it refers 'to the fact that the harsh Australian sun could turn British immigrants' skin pomegranate red'.
It's a good job then that God spares the Scots much sight of the sun....
Thankfully the ever inventive English find other contexts to think up 'light-hearted mockery'.
Porridge w*g is my particular favourite, though Haggistani is one I was recently tickled by.
Nothing will ever top the 'Waffen Yes Yes' and the 'Yestapo.'
I hadn't come across those. Makes me more sympathetic towards malcolm's occasional diatribes.
Mr. Divvie, do you object to Aussies calling us poms?
*sighs*
I do wonder if you're being contrary just for the sake of it.
Couldn't give a feck. However I imagine you do on the 'gammon is racist' metric, since it refers 'to the fact that the harsh Australian sun could turn British immigrants' skin pomegranate red'.
It's a good job then that God spares the Scots much sight of the sun....
Thankfully the ever inventive English find other contexts to think up 'light-hearted mockery'.
Porridge w*g is my particular favourite, though Haggistani is one I was recently tickled by.
Married to a Scot, I find endless opportunties.....
Mr. Divvie, do you object to Aussies calling us poms?
*sighs*
I do wonder if you're being contrary just for the sake of it.
Couldn't give a feck. However I imagine you do on the 'gammon is racist' metric, since it refers 'to the fact that the harsh Australian sun could turn British immigrants' skin pomegranate red'.
It's a good job then that God spares the Scots much sight of the sun....
Thankfully the ever inventive English find other contexts to think up 'light-hearted mockery'.
Porridge w*g is my particular favourite, though Haggistani is one I was recently tickled by.
Nothing will ever top the 'Waffen Yes Yes' and the 'Yestapo.'
To quote the late Bob Monkhouse, they're not laughing now.
Mr. Divvie, do you object to Aussies calling us poms?
*sighs*
I do wonder if you're being contrary just for the sake of it.
Couldn't give a feck. However I imagine you do on the 'gammon is racist' metric, since it refers 'to the fact that the harsh Australian sun could turn British immigrants' skin pomegranate red'.
It's a good job then that God spares the Scots much sight of the sun....
Thankfully the ever inventive English find other contexts to think up 'light-hearted mockery'.
Porridge w*g is my particular favourite, though Haggistani is one I was recently tickled by.
Nothing will ever top the 'Waffen Yes Yes' and the 'Yestapo.'
I hadn't come across those. Makes me more sympathetic towards malcolm's occasional diatribes.
They were names created by Scots towards the Nats during the Indyref.
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
It might have been entertaining to watch Ken Clarke have a go.
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
It might have been entertaining to watch Ken Clarke have a go.
Cuddly Ken who proposed we go through another 2 and a half years of this shit
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
What aspects of being a PM has May done even an average job of ?
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
She agreed a deal with the EU that reflected the result, and annoyed hard brexiters and remain refuseniks. To me that’s a good deal, and, had we left without MPs getting to fuss over it, we would be better off than we are now.
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
What aspects of being a PM has May done even an average job of ?
He was a good shout at 100-1 but as soon as a MSM journo pumps someone at below 15-1 or so, it's normally a betting swerve (Hancock at 12-1 is dire). Obviously I back plenty of 15-1 political shots and lower but I'm using my own judgement there.
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
It might have been entertaining to watch Ken Clarke have a go.
Cuddly Ken who proposed we go through another 2 and a half years of this shit
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
What aspects of being a PM has May done even an average job of ?
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
What aspects of being a PM has May done even an average job of ?
She's utterly crap.
The deal, for one. Go back six or nine months, and you;ll see loads of posts on here about how she'll never get a deal, she's mucked up, etc, etc. Yet she got a deal, and one that, despite its inherent compromises, has the support of many leavers on here.
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
Customs union and the WA will pass on Monday and we will be out on the 22nd may - mays withdrawal and corbyns CU and free vote on the package, no referendum
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
What aspects of being a PM has May done even an average job of ?
She's utterly crap.
The deal, for one. Go back six or nine months, and you;ll see loads of posts on here about how she'll never get a deal, she's mucked up, etc, etc. Yet she got a deal, and one that, despite its inherent compromises, has the support of many leavers on here.
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
Customs union and the WA will pass on Monday and we will be out on the 22nd may - mays withdrawal and corbyns CU and free vote on the package, no referendum
New Con leader, new approach, kick the CU into touch after a GE next May.
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
It might have been entertaining to watch Ken Clarke have a go.
I agree. However go back to the referendum, and see what people on here were saying about the arch-remainer Clarke. I doubt anyone - especially Conservative Brexiteers - would have given him a shot. You might as well have offered it to Soubry.
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
It might have been entertaining to watch Ken Clarke have a go.
Cuddly Ken who proposed we go through another 2 and a half years of this shit
Yes, that one. Are you proposing revoke ?
Nah, indicative Monday and proceed with the winner- which will be WA plus CU
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
Customs union and the WA will pass on Monday and we will be out on the 22nd may - mays withdrawal and corbyns CU and free vote on the package, no referendum
New Con leader, new approach, kick the CU into touch after a GE next May.
And what's more that one vote is from a convicted criminal rocking up to the House Of Crooks on tag (and god knows why she isn't subject to an evening curfew like everyone else released on licence) to subvert a democratic referendum result.
Not only do we need an election to get a new government that can actually function as a government we need an election to get a new House Of Commons.
We need electoral reform to get rid of Lab and Con rotten boroughs (would Cooper be going against her 70%+ leave voting constituency is she was sitting on a majority less than 1000 rather than a majority of 15,000+? I doubt it) .
And finally we need a referendum on abolition of House Of Lords.
One good thing Brexit has done is that is that its shone a pretty big searchlight on the political class.
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
What aspects of being a PM has May done even an average job of ?
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
What aspects of being a PM has May done even an average job of ?
She's utterly crap.
The deal, for one. Go back six or nine months, and you;ll see loads of posts on here about how she'll never get a deal, she's mucked up, etc, etc. Yet she got a deal, and one that, despite its inherent compromises, has the support of many leavers on here.
The incredibly grudging support....
In some cases - but in others it is more fulsome. But the ones who give it their incredibly grudging support - especially those whose self-proclaimed negotiation skills rival Trump's - should ask themselves if they're being realistic.
Given that May is abject at every aspect of being a PM, not just Brexit, it is worth a go.
She has to deal with Brexit. Whilst she has many flaws, so does every other politician - albeit different ones. I fail to see *anyone* who could have negotiated the differing personalities, ambitions and desires of her fellows any better.
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
She agreed a deal with the EU that reflected the result, and annoyed hard brexiters and remain refuseniks. To me that’s a good deal, and, had we left without MPs getting to fuss over it, we would be better off than we are now.
She negotiated her fucking shit deal in bad faith because she knew she couldn't get it through the HoC and was expecting to be able to get the EU to fuck over Ireland.
And what's more that one vote is from a convicted criminal rocking up to the House Of Crooks on tag (and god knows why she isn't subject to an evening curfew like everyone else released on licence) to subvert a democratic referendum result.
Not only do we need an election to get a new government that can actually function as a government we need an election to get a new House Of Commons.
We need electoral reform to get rid of Lab and Con rotten boroughs (would Cooper be going against her 70%+ leave voting constituency is she was sitting on a majority less than 1000 rather than a majority of 15,000+? I doubt it) .
And finally we need a referendum on abolition of House Of Lords.
One good thing Brexit has done is that is that its shone a pretty big searchlight on the political class.
And it's not pretty...
You aren't upset by the criminal whose voted cancelled out her vote though?
Edit - Lots of people on HDC have late curfews so they can do their jobs.
Actually, in order to punish the DUP for being utterly useless partners not worth a billion of anyone's money get Corbyn on board for the WA in return for a referendum on uniited Ireland. The people are due a say, and to be fair, the DUP need to be told where to shove it.
I think MP's forget who they are , servants of the people but they are only serving themselves not the people , they think the are the plebs too thick to understand. Time to dissolve this wretched bunch of expense grabbing, sleazy, hypocritical liars.
That seems manifestly untrue. You only have to listen to politicians' speeches on all sides. They are wrestling with how to discharge their duties to implement a policy that they don't necessarily agree with but mostly feel an obligation to carry out.
The only group without any realism are the hardline Leavers who are choosing to interpret the referendum result as a mandate for a highly disruptive form of Brexit that was explicitly disavowed by them before the referendum was held.
On the remain side, Ken Clarke has put forward proposals to break the logjam, but what of Dominic Grieve. He's said he finds all forms of Brexit unacceptable ? At least near me, Mann, Flint and Barron are trying to do the right thing on the Labour benches.
I was somewhat disappointed by the broad range of options the SY Labour people you mention were against during the indicative votes. None of them are the kind of broad spectrum dealers I had hoped. None are a Labour Ken Clarke.
And what's more that one vote is from a convicted criminal rocking up to the House Of Crooks on tag (and god knows why she isn't subject to an evening curfew like everyone else released on licence) to subvert a democratic referendum result.
Not only do we need an election to get a new government that can actually function as a government we need an election to get a new House Of Commons.
We need electoral reform to get rid of Lab and Con rotten boroughs (would Cooper be going against her 70%+ leave voting constituency is she was sitting on a majority less than 1000 rather than a majority of 15,000+? I doubt it) .
And finally we need a referendum on abolition of House Of Lords.
One good thing Brexit has done is that is that its shone a pretty big searchlight on the political class.
And it's not pretty...
You aren't upset by the criminal whose voted cancelled out her vote though?
Edit - Lots of people on HDC have late curfews so they can do their jobs.
There should be no convicted criminals in our law-making legislature.... Although at least the Con MP isn't rocking up on tag to vote.
But no. Anyone with any criminal conviction should of course be immediately disbarred from taking any role in the law making process.
And what's more that one vote is from a convicted criminal rocking up to the House Of Crooks on tag (and god knows why she isn't subject to an evening curfew like everyone else released on licence) to subvert a democratic referendum result.
Not only do we need an election to get a new government that can actually function as a government we need an election to get a new House Of Commons.
We need electoral reform to get rid of Lab and Con rotten boroughs (would Cooper be going against her 70%+ leave voting constituency is she was sitting on a majority less than 1000 rather than a majority of 15,000+? I doubt it) .
And finally we need a referendum on abolition of House Of Lords.
One good thing Brexit has done is that is that its shone a pretty big searchlight on the political class.
And it's not pretty...
You aren't upset by the criminal whose voted cancelled out her vote though?
Edit - Lots of people on HDC have late curfews so they can do their jobs.
There should be no convicted criminals in our law-making legislature.... Although at least the Con MP isn't rocking up on tag to vote.
But no. Anyone with any criminal conviction should of course be immediately disbarred from taking any role in the law making process.
And argue with me at your peril, because what I have described here is exactly what is going to happen, complete with the comfortable yes win.
Your prognosticatory track record is thus far 0%.
You think asking the electorate “do you wish to prolong this shit or move onto tackling housing crisis etc” doesn’t resolve this with a clear answer, you carry on there in deluded corner.
The ERG amongst many are whipping up a betrayal narrative , using dangerous rhetoric . They have decided to view Mays deal as not proper Brexit . They have spent 4 months trashing it and now only a complete rupture with the EU will satisfy them.
They frame no deal now as what 17 million people wanted when it’s clear that was not the case in 2016 . The chaos and current impasse is down to them and not Remainers.
The ERG knew there was no real appetite for what they wanted so they kept schtumm during the referendum campaign and went along with the idea that there would be an easy deal, Norway was an option, No Deal was Project Fear etc. The y never had any real intention of going along with it. They were happy to let Farage reel in leavers on the immigration issue. Stage 1 of their project was to get a leave majority by hook or by crook.
Once they had the victory in the bag they have sought to usurp the result for their own purposes. I suspect that that was always the plan, it was dishonest and deserves to be defeated.
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
Customs union and the WA will pass on Monday and we will be out on the 22nd may - mays withdrawal and corbyns CU and free vote on the package, no referendum
New Con leader, new approach, kick the CU into touch after a GE next May.
will they be legally able to "kick the CU into touch"
And argue with me at your peril, because what I have described here is exactly what is going to happen, complete with the comfortable yes win.
Your prognosticatory track record is thus far 0%.
You think asking the electorate “do you wish to prolong this shit or move onto tackling housing crisis etc” doesn’t resolve this with a clear answer, you carry on there in deluded corner.
You are suggesting that they'll choose the "prolong this shit" answer.
The ERG amongst many are whipping up a betrayal narrative , using dangerous rhetoric . They have decided to view Mays deal as not proper Brexit . They have spent 4 months trashing it and now only a complete rupture with the EU will satisfy them.
They frame no deal now as what 17 million people wanted when it’s clear that was not the case in 2016 . The chaos and current impasse is down to them and not Remainers.
The ERG knew there was no real appetite for what they wanted so they kept schtumm during the referendum campaign and went along with the idea that there would be an easy deal, Norway was an option, No Deal was Project Fear etc. The y never had any real intention of going along with it. They were happy to let Farage reel in leavers on the immigration issue. Stage 1 of their project was to get a leave majority by hook or by crook.
Once they had the victory in the bag they have sought to usurp the result for their own purposes. I suspect that that was always the plan, it was dishonest and deserves to be defeated.
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
Customs union and the WA will pass on Monday and we will be out on the 22nd may - mays withdrawal and corbyns CU and free vote on the package, no referendum
New Con leader, new approach, kick the CU into touch after a GE next May.
will they be legally able to "kick the CU into touch"
After a GE they can do what they like, no parliament can bind the next
And what's more that one vote is from a convicted criminal rocking up to the House Of Crooks on tag (and god knows why she isn't subject to an evening curfew like everyone else released on licence) to subvert a democratic referendum result.
Not only do we need an election to get a new government that can actually function as a government we need an election to get a new House Of Commons.
We need electoral reform to get rid of Lab and Con rotten boroughs (would Cooper be going against her 70%+ leave voting constituency is she was sitting on a majority less than 1000 rather than a majority of 15,000+? I doubt it) .
And finally we need a referendum on abolition of House Of Lords.
One good thing Brexit has done is that is that its shone a pretty big searchlight on the political class.
And it's not pretty...
You aren't upset by the criminal whose voted cancelled out her vote though?
Edit - Lots of people on HDC have late curfews so they can do their jobs.
There should be no convicted criminals in our law-making legislature.... Although at least the Con MP isn't rocking up on tag to vote.
But no. Anyone with any criminal conviction should of course be immediately disbarred from taking any role in the law making process.
Only because he hasn't been sentenced yet.
I agree.
At the point of conviction any MP should be disbarred from taking any part in the law-making process.
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
Customs union and the WA will pass on Monday and we will be out on the 22nd may - mays withdrawal and corbyns CU and free vote on the package, no referendum
It won't. More MPs see that it is a trap. New Tory MP can scrap CU. We're in for the euros.
And argue with me at your peril, because what I have described here is exactly what is going to happen, complete with the comfortable yes win.
Your prognosticatory track record is thus far 0%.
You think asking the electorate “do you wish to prolong this shit or move onto tackling housing crisis etc” doesn’t resolve this with a clear answer, you carry on there in deluded corner.
You are suggesting that they'll choose the "prolong this shit" answer.
If you put the confirmatory y/n ref on the deal Parliament passes to the electorate the people will back it. For the reasons I described.
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
Customs union and the WA will pass on Monday and we will be out on the 22nd may - mays withdrawal and corbyns CU and free vote on the package, no referendum
It won't. More MPs see that it is a trap. New Tory MP can scrap CU. We're in for the euros.
Depends on what may and Corbyn come up with. Corbyn not whipping against the WA means it passes I think, if paired with an IV winner
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
Customs union and the WA will pass on Monday and we will be out on the 22nd may - mays withdrawal and corbyns CU and free vote on the package, no referendum
New Con leader, new approach, kick the CU into touch after a GE next May.
will they be legally able to "kick the CU into touch"
The ERG amongst many are whipping up a betrayal narrative , using dangerous rhetoric . They have decided to view Mays deal as not proper Brexit . They have spent 4 months trashing it and now only a complete rupture with the EU will satisfy them.
They frame no deal now as what 17 million people wanted when it’s clear that was not the case in 2016 . The chaos and current impasse is down to them and not Remainers.
The ERG knew there was no real appetite for what they wanted so they kept schtumm during the referendum campaign and went along with the idea that there would be an easy deal, Norway was an option, No Deal was Project Fear etc. The y never had any real intention of going along with it. They were happy to let Farage reel in leavers on the immigration issue. Stage 1 of their project was to get a leave majority by hook or by crook.
Once they had the victory in the bag they have sought to usurp the result for their own purposes. I suspect that that was always the plan, it was dishonest and deserves to be defeated.
And argue with me at your peril, because what I have described here is exactly what is going to happen, complete with the comfortable yes win.
Your prognosticatory track record is thus far 0%.
You think asking the electorate “do you wish to prolong this shit or move onto tackling housing crisis etc” doesn’t resolve this with a clear answer, you carry on there in deluded corner.
You are suggesting that they'll choose the "prolong this shit" answer.
If you put the confirmatory y/n ref on the deal Parliament passes to the electorate the people will back it. For the reasons I described.
Not going to happen. People don't want a referendum, but it is becoming the least worst option. Politicians are only going to go for it if both answers settle the matter.
Interesting header. It reminds me of Frank Muir's answer to 'what has a Robin and a cow got in common' and he answered that they both have four legs except for the Robin which has two'.
In truth I think it would be as easy to compare Mrs May to Mrs Thatcher or even Mrs May to Mr Corbyn or either of them to George Bush or Ronald Reagan. They're politicians. And if Jeremy Corbyn is as you've described he's a very elusive one because I don't recognise him at all
I would describe Jeremy Corbyn for all his faults is the antithethis of Donald Trump. The essense of Trump is his narcissism his dishonesty and his belief in his omnipotence. Corbyn appears to have none of these failings/qualities depending on how you like your politicians.
A few for instances....
"Us and Them....."
Corbyn has a 'disregard for a free press'? Is this really a feature of Corbyn? Or an abnormal 'dislike of criticism'. Really! Comparable to the seriously paranoid Trump? Gordon Brown perhaps but where's the evidence for Corbyn?
Or his 'disregard for opposition' or his 'tendancy for petulence'?
Which is the 'fake news' he's been peddling? All leaders put their best foot forward -it's called PR- but peddling fake news is something different and is it meaningful to compare 'the anti racists in Liverpool with the white supremecists in Charlston'?
The Corbyn you're describing is not one I recognise. I have a lot of issues with him but weirdly you've missed them all. The biggest being he's a poor leader with a history of disloyalty.
How about this? May and corbyn agree to promote CU and the WA with parliament oversight/approval of the negotiation. Victory for parliament but keeps May and the Tories in place as a GE would reset things? Will they fudge something like that?
And argue with me at your peril, because what I have described here is exactly what is going to happen, complete with the comfortable yes win.
Your prognosticatory track record is thus far 0%.
You think asking the electorate “do you wish to prolong this shit or move onto tackling housing crisis etc” doesn’t resolve this with a clear answer, you carry on there in deluded corner.
You are suggesting that they'll choose the "prolong this shit" answer.
Posted at 1034. Confirmatory y/n gets public backing for reason I described. No good for PV or remainiacs or ERG but they would be buried in such a ref. Like in 75. What I intended when I began writing the post is warning Isam and others what is a ref? Truth is people think what they choose to think when they hear the word, but it could take all sorts of crafted forms
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
Customs union and the WA will pass on Monday and we will be out on the 22nd may - mays withdrawal and corbyns CU and free vote on the package, no referendum
New Con leader, new approach, kick the CU into touch after a GE next May.
will they be legally able to "kick the CU into touch"
After a GE they can do what they like, no parliament can bind the next
Didn’t corbyn say he wanted any agreement writing into law to stop a future Tory reneging
Comments
Once they had the victory in the bag they have sought to usurp the result for their own purposes. I suspect that that was always the plan, it was dishonest and deserves to be defeated.
The only group without any realism are the hardline Leavers who are choosing to interpret the referendum result as a mandate for a highly disruptive form of Brexit that was explicitly disavowed by them before the referendum was held.
https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1113733509368225792
However I imagine you do on the 'gammon is racist' metric, since it refers 'to the fact that the harsh Australian sun could turn British immigrants' skin pomegranate red'.
The bars are temples but the pearls ain't free
You'll find a god in every Tory cloister
And if you're lucky then the god's a she
I can feel Theresa sliding up to me
"Who is that vacuous prick?" was her take on him.
[tears in eyes] "this government's failure to chose for me is hurting real people, do you not care about how your inability to help me make up my mind is harming people out there"
If she's a crap PM, then she was a crap PM who is trying to perform a crap task with a bunch of shits behind her and in front of her.
I fail to see anyone, remainer or leaver, who would have got a substantially different result.
A better longshot
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/johnny-mercer-the-tories-would-be-wiped-out-in-a-snap-election/
"‘There’s this massive disengaged centre that the elite would have us think are just not interested in politics. That is rubbish. They have never been more connected. They are just waiting to be set on fire by good, competent, modern, centre, centre-right aspirational future politics. It’s really exciting. I honestly believe it will be like dropping a match into petrol. They want to be engaged, they want something to vote for. But we have to go and earn it.’ The last election, he says, was a case study in what not to do. ‘You can’t just go around saying: “Did you know about Jeremy Corbyn and the IRA?” Everyone was like: “Yes, all right, it sounds bad. But Granny’s operation has been cancelled for the third time, what are you actually going to do about that?”’"
At least near me, Mann, Flint and Barron are trying to do the right thing on the Labour benches.
The first gooseberries are coming on nicely and I've chitted the potatoes for planting
ON topic (slightly) the question is what makes populists popular?
Essentially, it's saying the things people want to hear - in that respect, our biggest populist by some way is Boris Johnson. He tailors whatever he says to the audience to whom he is speaking. They love it and they love him because he articulates what they themselves want to articulate but don't feel empowered or enabled so to do.
A populist has no problem telling two different audiences two different things and the coherence is there is always someone or something else to blame. Crudely - "you can't make profits, it's those greedy workers demanding too much money" is also "you can't afford to make ends meet, it's those greedy capitalists making too much money from you". Two audiences, two different messages and yet the same message.
Populism flourishes when there are actual societal problems - when the existing economic model isn't working for the many and when, as a result, the many feel no one represents them and no one listens to them. For those scared of change, the populist tells you what you want to hear. If you want hope, the populist will dish it out by the bucketful but it's not the Obama-type message of hope, this is the negative hope - "elect me, I'll sort out those capitalists/workers/immigrants (delete as appropriate)".
This is the hope tainted with violence and fear where change comes from a beating or two or a repressive new law.
For all the efforts of those on here and elsewhere who defend capitalism to the hilt, the fact is the current economic model isn't working for many people who find themselves trapped in low-paying and let's be honest, soul destroying employment at the bottom end of the service sector. Some on here rejoice at the numbers in work but what that means is never properly discussed. The people I see on the tube at 7am aren't relishing in the joys of capitalism, they are surviving. We must do better.
No it doesn’t have to.
“A withdrawal bill has passed parliament, do you wish to leave the EU under these terms yes or no?”
Where it is explicit no is not remain merely changing the withdrawal bill and trying again.
A No result wouldn’t happen anyway, because yes would win comfortably. Whatever ideological factors there in a such a question concerning the type of leave is not brexity enough or the best deal is the current deal would be slaughtered by the populations utter weariness with the argument and fear of prolonging it with a no. Hence why national plebiscites are beloved by fascists.
Not that I am saying such a fascist approach as the ref above is bad. I am actually endorsing the ref above as our best way out of this! And argue with me at your peril, because what I have described here is exactly what is going to happen, complete with the comfortable yes win.
Porridge w*g is my particular favourite, though Haggistani is one I was recently tickled by.
Jess is not the worst Lab MP but she loves talking about Jess too much for me.
When was the last sentence she used without me or my in it?
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1111904483729203200
https://twitter.com/_SeanToner_/status/1113517629204045824
Fascinating to look at the breakdown of the 313-312 vote overnight. The Conservatives overwhelmingly against but 14 rebels supported Cooper-Letwin but 9 Labour MPs and three Independents opposed. Had the Conservatives stayed united, Cooper-Letwin would have fallen so do we call this another Government defeat? Possibly.
In truth, it doesn't mean a great deal. Presumably the May/Corbyn talks will achieve little or nothing - the signs yesterday, for all the early bravado, weren't positive so it looks as though come Monday it will be MV4 in some form but again little evidence it will clear the Commons.
On then to Wednesday next and the Prime Minister at the EU Summit where the road really begins to run out. If I understand the EU line, May will be told it's either game over on Friday or she has to sign up to an 18-24 month extension involving the EU elections.
The Conservative Party now seems to be moving toward the former and would the latter even be politically acceptable now? As is often the case, with the passage of time and the course of events, opinions have evolved and hardened. The "let's get it over with" camp now see "No Deal" being a better option than months of interminable limbo status.
I genuinely don't know how an 18-24 month extension would be viewed by the Cabinet and the wider Conservative Party - resignations? Seems possible but there's no mechanism I can see that would force May out short of a complete split in the Party which still seems improbable at this time.
She's utterly crap.
Are you proposing revoke ?
Not only do we need an election to get a new government that can actually function as a government we need an election to get a new House Of Commons.
We need electoral reform to get rid of Lab and Con rotten boroughs (would Cooper be going against her 70%+ leave voting constituency is she was sitting on a majority less than 1000 rather than a majority of 15,000+? I doubt it) .
And finally we need a referendum on abolition of House Of Lords.
One good thing Brexit has done is that is that its shone a pretty big searchlight on the political class.
And it's not pretty...
I don't think they are.
Edit - Lots of people on HDC have late curfews so they can do their jobs.
What's that you say, she was?!!
I mean what does Gove know about Conservatism?
But no. Anyone with any criminal conviction should of course be immediately disbarred from taking any role in the law making process.
At the point of conviction any MP should be disbarred from taking any part in the law-making process.
It says what a sewer The Spectator is that they employ him.
Or sign up to a CU then leave.
Neither Brexit or Bremain is permanent.
In truth I think it would be as easy to compare Mrs May to Mrs Thatcher or even Mrs May to Mr Corbyn or either of them to George Bush or Ronald Reagan. They're politicians. And if Jeremy Corbyn is as you've described he's a very elusive one because I don't recognise him at all
I would describe Jeremy Corbyn for all his faults is the antithethis of Donald Trump. The essense of Trump is his narcissism his dishonesty and his belief in his omnipotence. Corbyn appears to have none of these failings/qualities depending on how you like your politicians.
A few for instances....
"Us and Them....."
Corbyn has a 'disregard for a free press'? Is this really a feature of Corbyn? Or an abnormal 'dislike of criticism'. Really! Comparable to the seriously paranoid Trump? Gordon Brown perhaps but where's the evidence for Corbyn?
Or his 'disregard for opposition' or his 'tendancy for petulence'?
Which is the 'fake news' he's been peddling? All leaders put their best foot forward -it's called PR- but peddling fake news is something different and is it meaningful to compare 'the anti racists in Liverpool with the white supremecists in Charlston'?
The Corbyn you're describing is not one I recognise. I have a lot of issues with him but weirdly you've missed them all. The biggest being he's a poor leader with a history of disloyalty.
May and corbyn agree to promote CU and the WA with parliament oversight/approval of the negotiation. Victory for parliament but keeps May and the Tories in place as a GE would reset things? Will they fudge something like that?
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1113714909311840256?s=21
What I intended when I began writing the post is warning Isam and others what is a ref? Truth is people think what they choose to think when they hear the word, but it could take all sorts of crafted forms