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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,183

    dots said:

    dots said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    The interesting thing is that she knew all of this in 2016, but still chose to test hard Brexit to destruction.
    Are you happy brexit is now going to happen William? Relieved? Where does your fight go from here?
    Brexit going to happen? What makes you think that?
    Mays deal + CU plus confirmatory ref is still brexit isn’t it?
    May's deal + CU is a long way from being a done deal, and a confirmatory ref would mean a strong chance we vote Remain.
    Deltapoll had CU + Deal on +7% net at the weekend to just +1% for revoke and +2% for EUref2
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited April 2019

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Can you explain how the ERG call a vonc
    Hypothetically speaking; If Corbyn is informed he has the numbers, he'll call one. The only thing he wants is a GE.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    There's a breathless hush in the Close tonight
    Ten to win and the last man in
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    kjohnw said:

    The Tory’s will split and never be in government again . The brexit party will become the home of many tories now and will bring disaffected labour leavers with it too. TM has torched her own party tonight to do a deal with a terrorist sympathising Marxist

    No - TM has put the ERG back in their box and hopefully seen the UKIP infiltrators resign on mass
    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    dots said:

    dots said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    The interesting thing is that she knew all of this in 2016, but still chose to test hard Brexit to destruction.
    Are you happy brexit is now going to happen William? Relieved? Where does your fight go from here?
    Brexit going to happen? What makes you think that?
    Mays deal + CU plus confirmatory ref is still brexit isn’t it?
    May's deal + CU is a long way from being a done deal, and a confirmatory ref would mean a strong chance we vote Remain.
    Confirmatory ref won’t have remain on it. It’s a confirmatory ref like 75. Do you back Tess and Jez lovebird deal y/n
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    _Anazina_ said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    My sense is that May has more than a shred of decency and has finally realised that her country is more important than what’s left of the Tory party.
    Yes I think once she got it she did indeed realise the implications. Moreso when dolts like JRM started explaining how little of a problem border checks would be.
  • kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Can you explain how the ERG call a vonc
    Hundred plus tories side with opposition
    You are upset and not thinking this through

    A vonc would need to be called by the opposition party and any conservative vonc results in instant loss of the whip and cannot stand as a conservative in the next election

    I would expect no conservatives vonc their own government but if so, they are no loss to the party
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited April 2019
    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on backbenchers - they didn’t run the turd of a GE campaign.

    May is the PM - she has failed. Should have been punted before Xmas. We need a new PM to lead the way.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725
    dots said:

    dots said:

    dots said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    The interesting thing is that she knew all of this in 2016, but still chose to test hard Brexit to destruction.
    Are you happy brexit is now going to happen William? Relieved? Where does your fight go from here?
    Brexit going to happen? What makes you think that?
    Mays deal + CU plus confirmatory ref is still brexit isn’t it?
    May's deal + CU is a long way from being a done deal, and a confirmatory ref would mean a strong chance we vote Remain.
    Confirmatory ref won’t have remain on it. It’s a confirmatory ref like 75. Do you back Tess and Jez lovebird deal y/n
    Don't be naive. In any referendum the 'no' option would mean revocation.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    Well I am running for town council, sadly little we can do about Brexit there though
    Yes I saw. Good luck. Onwards and upwards.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
  • kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Can you explain how the ERG call a vonc
    Hypothetically speaking; If Corbyn is informed he has the numbers, he'll call one. The only thing he wants is a GE.
    Yes I know that but ERG cannot call one
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725
    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on others.

    It should tell you something that no-one is vying for credit.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    dots said:

    dots said:

    dots said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    The interesting thing is that she knew all of this in 2016, but still chose to test hard Brexit to destruction.
    Are you happy brexit is now going to happen William? Relieved? Where does your fight go from here?
    Brexit going to happen? What makes you think that?
    Mays deal + CU plus confirmatory ref is still brexit isn’t it?
    May's deal + CU is a long way from being a done deal, and a confirmatory ref would mean a strong chance we vote Remain.
    Confirmatory ref won’t have remain on it. It’s a confirmatory ref like 75. Do you back Tess and Jez lovebird deal y/n
    You seem so sure.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,183

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Can you explain how the ERG call a vonc
    Hypothetically speaking; If Corbyn is informed he has the numbers, he'll call one. The only thing he wants is a GE.
    No it isn't, there is still a very strong Unionist vote in Scotland, the fact No Deal Brexiteers could not care less about the Union and are happy to try and push Scotland over the line to independence and Northern Ireland to a United Ireland does not change the fact that a pragmatic Brexit plus eventual Devomax could secure Scotland's place in the UK
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Replace ERG with DUP and that makes some sense. Anything cobbled up with Corbyn is going to threaten the union.

    And without the DUP, the Conservatives following defections have only 312 voting MPs, compared to 326 others, so a VONC could pass.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on others.

    Pure essence of Brexit though...

    It was conceived by people for whom blaming others is a religion. And now the revolution consumes itself.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,183
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    Well I am running for town council, sadly little we can do about Brexit there though
    Yes I saw. Good luck. Onwards and upwards.
    Thanks
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    T

    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on others.

    It should tell you something that no-one is vying for credit.
    It tells us Anne Widdicombe was spot on.
  • HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    Well I am running for town council, sadly little we can do about Brexit there though
    Yes I saw. Good luck. Onwards and upwards.
    Thanks
    All the best in your efforts Hyufd
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on backbenchers - they didn’t run the turd of a GE campaign.

    May is the PM - she has failed. Should have been punted before Xmas. We need a new PM to lead the way.

    Everyone is responsible for their own choices. May has led poorly, but MPs are still responsible for how they choose to vote. They chose to reject her WA over and over again. Something else was going to be agreed instead. Those who rejected the WA knew that might happen, they were explicitly told it might happen. Their faux surprise is unconvincing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,183
    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    The Tory’s will split and never be in government again . The brexit party will become the home of many tories now and will bring disaffected labour leavers with it too. TM has torched her own party tonight to do a deal with a terrorist sympathising Marxist

    No - TM has put the ERG back in their box and hopefully seen the UKIP infiltrators resign on mass
    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here
    May has already said she will not be leading the party at the next GE, she has made the right decision for the country today but I expect the members will pick a hard Brexiteer to succeed her
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,183

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    Well I am running for town council, sadly little we can do about Brexit there though
    Yes I saw. Good luck. Onwards and upwards.
    Thanks
    All the best in your efforts Hyufd
    Thankyou
  • HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Can you explain how the ERG call a vonc
    Hypothetically speaking; If Corbyn is informed he has the numbers, he'll call one. The only thing he wants is a GE.
    No it isn't, there is still a very strong Unionist vote in Scotland, the fact No Deal Brexiteers could not care less about the Union and are happy to try and push Scotland over the line to independence and Northern Ireland to a United Ireland does not change the fact that a pragmatic Brexit plus eventual Devomax could secure Scotland's place in the UK
    I agree
  • _Anazina_ said:

    In case things weren't bad enough, Newsnight have got Barry Gardiner on.

    I’m not usually a fan, but Gardo was pretty good I thought! He used the word betokens, which was particularly pleasing.
    They've now got Paul 'midlife crisis' Mason on.


    'Things are going to get worse, nurse, things are going to get dismal'
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
  • XtrainXtrain Posts: 341
    The number of spoiled ballots will go through the roof!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    If you are a Brexit opponent and you aren't getting a belly laugh out of tweets like this you need to sign up for some Schadenfreude classes.

    https://twitter.com/Brexiteer30/status/1113184746350276615
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited April 2019

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Replace ERG with DUP and that makes some sense. Anything cobbled up with Corbyn is going to threaten the union.

    And without the DUP, the Conservatives following defections have only 312 voting MPs, compared to 326 others, so a VONC could pass.
    CU is OK for them, I think. The reason the backstop came about was because the ERG wouldn't accept an all-UK CU while the DUP wouldn't accept a border in the Irish Sea. The backstop is designed to postpone deciding which of those two is going to lose. It's better for the DUP if it gets resolved early, in their favour.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,183

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Replace ERG with DUP and that makes some sense. Anything cobbled up with Corbyn is going to threaten the union.

    And without the DUP, the Conservatives following defections have only 312 voting MPs, compared to 326 others, so a VONC could pass.
    Anything that is not No Deal reduces the threat to the Union
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    dixiedean said:

    Save BREXIT
    Save NHS
    Renationalize Railways
    Max's flat

    Anything else

    Don't forget rural buses. Can start with the twice a day service to Newcastle which used to run from the end of my street. :)
    I’d like a free owl please.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on backbenchers - they didn’t run the turd of a GE campaign.

    May is the PM - she has failed. Should have been punted before Xmas. We need a new PM to lead the way.

    Everyone is responsible for their own choices. May has led poorly, but MPs are still responsible for how they choose to vote. They chose to reject her WA over and over again. Something else was going to be agreed instead. Those who rejected the WA knew that might happen, they were explicitly told it might happen. Their faux surprise is unconvincing.
    The ERG really did think they could barge their way to a no deal whereas the only transparently obvious thing from day one was that there could not be a no deal.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    No way the May 22 one is going to work, it's going to have to go past the EU elections.
    When that becomes clear the campaigning for the European elections will get underway and that will kick any decisions on Brexit into the long grass.
    I suspect that the 6.1 million people who've signed the Revoke petition may well turn out to vote, realising that it's effectively a referendum on EU membership, even if we don't get a real referendum. So pro-EU parties may do reasonably well, getting >50% of the vote and the UKIP vote share should fall sharply vs. the ~40% they got in 2014.
    Sorry, what was the UKIP share in 2014?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387

    An awful lot of people are talking about the May-Corbyn Compromise as if it were a done deal already - but all that little address from the podium tonight did was to outline a possible plan of action.

    Until said plan yields results, nothing has changed.

    Agreed. In fact, it will probably come to nothing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,183
    edited April 2019
    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Maggie also helped create the single market and kept us in the EEC and customs union
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    edited April 2019

    dots said:

    dots said:

    dots said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    The interesting thing is that she knew all of this in 2016, but still chose to test hard Brexit to destruction.
    Are you happy brexit is now going to happen William? Relieved? Where does your fight go from here?
    Brexit going to happen? What makes you think that?
    Mays deal + CU plus confirmatory ref is still brexit isn’t it?
    May's deal + CU is a long way from being a done deal, and a confirmatory ref would mean a strong chance we vote Remain.
    Confirmatory ref won’t have remain on it. It’s a confirmatory ref like 75. Do you back Tess and Jez lovebird deal y/n
    Don't be naive. In any referendum the 'no' option would mean revocation.
    This has been the problem for weeks now, if on yes side of pv or no side, whenever referendum was mentioned people thought of what they wanted to think of.

    There’s a thousand ways to ref this. The most sensible one once it passes the commons is do you back it yes/no. Simple as that.

    Just like 75, do you accept Labours renegotiation on terms of entry. All no meant back in 75 was tweak it again, maybe back to people again. Or maybe not, don’t have to once through Parliament. Heath didn’t bother.

    That’s a confirmatory vote

    What, when you heard corbyn talking about one you thought it was something different did you?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    If you are a Brexit opponent and you aren't getting a belly laugh out of tweets like this you need to sign up for some Schadenfreude classes.

    https://twitter.com/Brexiteer30/status/1113184746350276615

    Must come as a huge relief to moderate Tory MPs.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited April 2019
    Final thought, I took that Politico Brexit quiz and got this result:

    Result: General Election

    Are you out of your mind?

    Your combination of requests is not negotiable. You need to go back to the country.


    Despite not wanting a GE it seems I am so unicorny myself it is the only option
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited April 2019
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on backbenchers - they didn’t run the turd of a GE campaign.

    May is the PM - she has failed. Should have been punted before Xmas. We need a new PM to lead the way.

    Everyone is responsible for their own choices. May has led poorly, but MPs are still responsible for how they choose to vote. They chose to reject her WA over and over again. Something else was going to be agreed instead. Those who rejected the WA knew that might happen, they were explicitly told it might happen. Their faux surprise is unconvincing.
    Nah sorry. The reason we are hearing so much from backbenchers of both sides is the huge gaping vacuums at the top of both parties. The leaders have left the stage and are cowering at the back.

    I thought one or two in the cabinet had some gumption but apparently not.

    Leave or remain we have a shoddy set of leaders and the country will never maximise potential whilst they meddle and fiddle on the minutiae.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    Well I am running for town council, sadly little we can do about Brexit there though
    Yes I saw. Good luck. Onwards and upwards.
    Thanks
    Yes good luck... Your certainty going to need it! :D
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    If you are a Brexit opponent and you aren't getting a belly laugh out of tweets like this you need to sign up for some Schadenfreude classes.

    https://twitter.com/Brexiteer30/status/1113184746350276615

    Must come as a huge relief to moderate Tory MPs.
    I think the big question is straight down the middle or at a jaunty angle?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    edited April 2019
    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Thatcher was a long time ago, it is time to stop living in the past. I don't give a crap what Margaret Thatcher would have done, I care about what parliament now, politicians now, can and will do. Might as well tell me what Pitt the Younger or Clemet Attlee would do for all it matters.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Scott_P said:
    If you're Dominic Grieve it must have been really hard to resist the temptation to hit "like" on that one.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Maggie also helped create the single market
    She didn’t advocate unlimited immigration or an unelected European superstate
  • Strange sort of evening when Mason and Gardiner are able to look calm and reasonable.

    Mind you, setting this against the Provisional ERG, who are all turned up to eleventy stupid.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Can you explain how the ERG call a vonc
    Hypothetically speaking; If Corbyn is informed he has the numbers, he'll call one. The only thing he wants is a GE.
    No it isn't, there is still a very strong Unionist vote in Scotland, the fact No Deal Brexiteers could not care less about the Union and are happy to try and push Scotland over the line to independence and Northern Ireland to a United Ireland does not change the fact that a pragmatic Brexit plus eventual Devomax could secure Scotland's place in the UK
    Oh give it a damned rest, Scotland is already gone. NI too. The trends have been going on with the tacit support of Westminster for years. To trying to blackmail people with it now is beyond a joke.

    P.S, not sure what this has to do with Corbyn wanting a GE?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Scott_P said:
    Tory PM tries to deliver Brexit by any means they can, when parliament might well remove it entirely. Cannot be allowed of course.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on backbenchers - they didn’t run the turd of a GE campaign.

    May is the PM - she has failed. Should have been punted before Xmas. We need a new PM to lead the way.

    Everyone is responsible for their own choices. May has led poorly, but MPs are still responsible for how they choose to vote. They chose to reject her WA over and over again. Something else was going to be agreed instead. Those who rejected the WA knew that might happen, they were explicitly told it might happen. Their faux surprise is unconvincing.
    The ERG really did think they could barge their way to a no deal whereas the only transparently obvious thing from day one was that there could not be a no deal.
    The ERG's strategy would have made sense if the Conservatives had a big majority, but they have not.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on backbenchers - they didn’t run the turd of a GE campaign.

    May is the PM - she has failed. Should have been punted before Xmas. We need a new PM to lead the way.

    Everyone is responsible for their own choices. May has led poorly, but MPs are still responsible for how they choose to vote. They chose to reject her WA over and over again. Something else was going to be agreed instead. Those who rejected the WA knew that might happen, they were explicitly told it might happen. Their faux surprise is unconvincing.
    The ERG really did think they could barge their way to a no deal whereas the only transparently obvious thing from day one was that there could not be a no deal.
    The ERG's strategy would have made sense if the Conservatives had a big majority, but they have not.
    For which we should be grateful.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on backbenchers - they didn’t run the turd of a GE campaign.

    May is the PM - she has failed. Should have been punted before Xmas. We need a new PM to lead the way.

    Everyone is responsible for their own choices. May has led poorly, but MPs are still responsible for how they choose to vote. They chose to reject her WA over and over again. Something else was going to be agreed instead. Those who rejected the WA knew that might happen, they were explicitly told it might happen. Their faux surprise is unconvincing.
    Nah sorry. The reason we are hearing so much from backbenchers of both sides is the huge gaping vacuums at the top of both parties. The leaders have left the stage and are cowering at the back.

    I thought one or two in the cabinet had some gumption but apparently not.

    Leave or remain we have a shoddy set of leaders and the country will never maximise potential whilst they meddle and fiddle on the minutiae.

    The points are not mutually exclusive, I said the PM had led poorly. Very poorly in fact. But treating MPs like they have no agency is a cop out for them, particularly since on the Tory side they put her in place and kept her there, and have been very open about voting against her whenever they want.

    May being crap does not take away an MPs responsibility, even if she is crapper than they are. That's infantilising them.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    edited April 2019
    isam said:

    No way the May 22 one is going to work, it's going to have to go past the EU elections.
    When that becomes clear the campaigning for the European elections will get underway and that will kick any decisions on Brexit into the long grass.
    I suspect that the 6.1 million people who've signed the Revoke petition may well turn out to vote, realising that it's effectively a referendum on EU membership, even if we don't get a real referendum. So pro-EU parties may do reasonably well, getting >50% of the vote and the UKIP vote share should fall sharply vs. the ~40% they got in 2014.
    Sorry, what was the UKIP share in 2014?
    Oddly, pro-EU parties won two thirds of the vote in 2014, a point which was stressed repeatedly by UKIP's opponents, at the time.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    You are right, Maggie would never have gone through the lobbies with Corbyn. QED.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Save BREXIT
    Save NHS
    Renationalize Railways
    Max's flat

    Anything else

    Don't forget rural buses. Can start with the twice a day service to Newcastle which used to run from the end of my street. :)
    I’d like a free owl please.
    I am very reasonable.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    kjohnw said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Maggie also helped create the single market
    She didn’t advocate unlimited immigration or an unelected European superstate
    It’s a good counter factual we will never know the answer to. If she were around now would she have joined the filthy 14 in cabinet today?

    Much like Henry VIII getting praise from pope for being a good catholic, Maggie was good European in 70s and 80s. But it’s all moved on now, a different era.

    Does the politician shapeth the era, or the era the politician?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on backbenchers - they didn’t run the turd of a GE campaign.

    May is the PM - she has failed. Should have been punted before Xmas. We need a new PM to lead the way.

    Everyone is responsible for their own choices. May has led poorly, but MPs are still responsible for how they choose to vote. They chose to reject her WA over and over again. Something else was going to be agreed instead. Those who rejected the WA knew that might happen, they were explicitly told it might happen. Their faux surprise is unconvincing.
    Nah sorry. The reason we are hearing so much from backbenchers of both sides is the huge gaping vacuums at the top of both parties. The leaders have left the stage and are cowering at the back.

    I thought one or two in the cabinet had some gumption but apparently not.

    Leave or remain we have a shoddy set of leaders and the country will never maximise potential whilst they meddle and fiddle on the minutiae.

    The points are not mutually exclusive, I said the PM had led poorly. Very poorly in fact. But treating MPs like they have no agency is a cop out for them, particularly since on the Tory side they put her in place and kept her there, and have been very open about voting against her whenever they want.

    May being crap does not take away an MPs responsibility, even if she is crapper than they are. That's infantilising them.
    Did the ERG not try and remove her whilst the “moderates” didn’t because it was impolite ?

    It’s even more shocking in hindsight that Con MPs voted to keep her on - what a staggering lack of judgement.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    An awful lot of people are talking about the May-Corbyn Compromise as if it were a done deal already - but all that little address from the podium tonight did was to outline a possible plan of action.

    Until said plan yields results, nothing has changed.

    No, it doesn't require Corbyn to reach agreement with May on outcomes. All that needs to be agreed is that between them they agree to allow the other's preferred option(s) to go forward together with what option(s) they themselves prefer.

    What has changed is that May has conceded that the Government would then commit to backing whatever option a Remainer-dominated house carries. And that is very significant.
  • XtrainXtrain Posts: 341
    TOPPING said:

    If you are a Brexit opponent and you aren't getting a belly laugh out of tweets like this you need to sign up for some Schadenfreude classes.

    https://twitter.com/Brexiteer30/status/1113184746350276615

    Must come as a huge relief to moderate Tory MPs.
    I think the big question is straight down the middle or at a jaunty angle?
    It's the cancelling of the direct debits that will hurt.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The premature letters to Graham Brady by the headbangers looking more and more like a masterstroke today...
  • Scott_P said:

    The premature letters to Graham Brady by the headbangers looking more and more like a masterstroke today...

    That is the funniest bit.

    Shot their load prematurely.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Xtrain said:

    TOPPING said:

    If you are a Brexit opponent and you aren't getting a belly laugh out of tweets like this you need to sign up for some Schadenfreude classes.

    https://twitter.com/Brexiteer30/status/1113184746350276615

    Must come as a huge relief to moderate Tory MPs.
    I think the big question is straight down the middle or at a jaunty angle?
    It's the cancelling of the direct debits that will hurt.
    If they remember to cancel them!
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    dots said:

    dots said:

    dots said:

    dots said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    The interesting thing is that she knew all of this in 2016, but still chose to test hard Brexit to destruction.
    Are you happy brexit is now going to happen William? Relieved? Where does your fight go from here?
    Brexit going to happen? What makes you think that?
    Mays deal + CU plus confirmatory ref is still brexit isn’t it?
    May's deal + CU is a long way from being a done deal, and a confirmatory ref would mean a strong chance we vote Remain.
    Confirmatory ref won’t have remain on it. It’s a confirmatory ref like 75. Do you back Tess and Jez lovebird deal y/n
    Don't be naive. In any referendum the 'no' option would mean revocation.
    This has been the problem for weeks now, if on yes side of pv or no side, whenever referendum was mentioned people thought of what they wanted to think of.

    There’s a thousand ways to ref this. The most sensible one once it passes the commons is do you back it yes/no. Simple as that.

    Just like 75, do you accept Labours renegotiation on terms of entry. All no meant back in 75 was tweak it again, maybe back to people again. Or maybe not, don’t have to once through Parliament. Heath didn’t bother.

    That’s a confirmatory vote

    What, when you heard corbyn talking about one you thought it was something different did you?
    Bottom line, ERG spitting teeth. blukip cutting up their cards leaving the party in droves. But the great remain dream also died tonight.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Save BREXIT
    Save NHS
    Renationalize Railways
    Max's flat

    Anything else

    Don't forget rural buses. Can start with the twice a day service to Newcastle which used to run from the end of my street. :)
    I’d like a free owl please.
    If a twice daily bus service is an impossible dream the country is truly fucked.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752

    An awful lot of people are talking about the May-Corbyn Compromise as if it were a done deal already - but all that little address from the podium tonight did was to outline a possible plan of action.

    Until said plan yields results, nothing has changed.

    No, it doesn't require Corbyn to reach agreement with May on outcomes. All that needs to be agreed is that between them they agree to allow the other's preferred option(s) to go forward together with what option(s) they themselves prefer.

    What has changed is that May has conceded that the Government would then commit to backing whatever option a Remainer-dominated house carries. And that is very significant.
    Provided Corbyn makes a similar commitment. Obviously if he refused he would have to take responsibility for the consequences. If he agrees, both the main parties will be committed to implementing the decision that comes out of the indicative votes.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    Scott_P said:

    The premature letters to Graham Brady by the headbangers looking more and more like a masterstroke today...

    That is the funniest bit.

    Shot their load prematurely.
    Premature decapitation
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    You are right, Maggie would never have gone through the lobbies with Corbyn. QED.
    But TM has just betrayed her promises on brexit , she has disregarded the views of the Tory membership and over half her MPs and now wants a labour style brexit , she is pathetic
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    _Anazina_ said:
    Yes they are.

    We have:-

    1. The Incompetents: Williamson, Fox, Grayling, Wright
    2. The Liars: Mordaunt, Leadsom
    3. The Ambitious: Hunt, Javid, Truss
    4. The Who The Hell Are They?: Evans, Cairns
    5. The Ones Who Look Like Posh Hotel Managers: Brokenshire, Lewis, Barclay
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on backbenchers - they didn’t run the turd of a GE campaign.

    May is the PM - she has failed. Should have been punted before Xmas. We need a new PM to lead the way.

    Everyone is responsible for their own choices. May has led poorly, but MPs are still responsible for how they choose to vote. They chose to reject her WA over and over again. Something else was going to be agreed instead. Those who rejected the WA knew that might happen, they were explicitly told it might happen. Their faux surprise is unconvincing.
    Nah sorry. The reason we are hearing so much from backbenchers of both sides is the huge gaping vacuums at the top of both parties. The leaders have left the stage and are cowering at the back.

    I thought one or two in the cabinet had some gumption but apparently not.

    Leave or remain we have a shoddy set of leaders and the country will never maximise potential whilst they meddle and fiddle on the minutiae.

    The points are not mutually exclusive, I said the PM had led poorly. Very poorly in fact. But treating MPs like they have no agency is a cop out for them, particularly since on the Tory side they put her in place and kept her there, and have been very open about voting against her whenever they want.

    May being crap does not take away an MPs responsibility, even if she is crapper than they are. That's infantilising them.
    Did the ERG not try and remove her whilst the “moderates” didn’t because it was impolite ?

    It’s even more shocking in hindsight that Con MPs voted to keep her on - what a staggering lack of judgement.
    Staggering lack of judgement but great for the country.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725
    kjohnw said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Maggie also helped create the single market
    She didn’t advocate unlimited immigration or an unelected European superstate
    https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1098179419657654272
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Can you explain how the ERG call a vonc
    Hundred plus tories side with opposition
    You are upset and not thinking this through

    A vonc would need to be called by the opposition party and any conservative vonc results in instant loss of the whip and cannot stand as a conservative in the next election

    I would expect no conservatives vonc their own government but if so, they are no loss to the party
    We don't have a majority - we could lose a VONC with every Tory voting with the Govt...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Pretty sad state of affairs when the prime concern is to try and pin the blame on backbenchers - they didn’t run the turd of a GE campaign.

    May is the PM - she has failed. Should have been punted before Xmas. We need a new PM to lead the way.

    Everyone is responsible for their own choices. May has led poorly, but MPs are still responsible for how they choose to vote. They chose to reject her WA over and over again. Something else was going to be agreed instead. Those who rejected the WA knew that might happen, they were explicitly told it might happen. Their faux surprise is unconvincing.
    Nah sorry. The reason we are hearing so much from backbenchers of both sides is the huge gaping vacuums at the top of both parties. The leaders have left the stage and are cowering at the back.

    I thought one or two in the cabinet had some gumption but apparently not.

    Leave or remain we have a shoddy set of leaders and the country will never maximise potential whilst they meddle and fiddle on the minutiae.

    The points are not mutually exclusive, I said the PM had led poorly. Very poorly in fact. But treating MPs like they have no agency is a cop out for them, particularly since on the Tory side they put her in place and kept her there, and have been very open about voting against her whenever they want.

    May being crap does not take away an MPs responsibility, even if she is crapper than they are. That's infantilising them.
    Did the ERG not try and remove her whilst the “moderates” didn’t because it was impolite ?

    It’s even more shocking in hindsight that Con MPs voted to keep her on - what a staggering lack of judgement.
    Staggering lack of judgement but great for the country.
    To keep May on as PM ? It’s a view..
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    You are right, Maggie would never have gone through the lobbies with Corbyn. QED.
    But TM has just betrayed her promises on brexit , she has disregarded the views of the Tory membership and over half her MPs and now wants a labour style brexit , she is pathetic
    So you keep saying, ignoring the fact that if the ERG and fellow travellers had not teamed up with Corbyn, trashed the possibility of an orderly Brexit, given cover to hard-core Remainers to vote against the deal, and left us at the mercy of an utterly disastrous crash-out in direct contradiction of everything the Leave campaigns promised, we'd have left the EU three days ago.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Replace ERG with DUP and that makes some sense. Anything cobbled up with Corbyn is going to threaten the union.

    And without the DUP, the Conservatives following defections have only 312 voting MPs, compared to 326 others, so a VONC could pass.
    Anything that is not No Deal reduces the threat to the Union
    Wrong, the threat comes from the backstop within May's WA and variants which would still be based on the WA. Besides, it is the DUP you need to convince and I suspect they share my view. We can though agree that Revoke is not a threat and I think the DUP would agree with that too, which is why there is I think the prospect of them pulling the plug in a VONC if faced with the prospect of a WA variant eventually passing.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    kjohnw said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Maggie also helped create the single market
    She didn’t advocate unlimited immigration or an unelected European superstate
    https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1098179419657654272
    That does not imply she advocated Unlimited EU immigration .
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Replace ERG with DUP and that makes some sense. Anything cobbled up with Corbyn is going to threaten the union.

    And without the DUP, the Conservatives following defections have only 312 voting MPs, compared to 326 others, so a VONC could pass.
    Anything that is not No Deal reduces the threat to the Union
    Wrong, the threat comes from the backstop within May's WA and variants which would still be based on the WA. Besides, it is the DUP you need to convince and I suspect they share my view. We can though agree that Revoke is not a threat and I think the DUP would agree with that too, which is why there is I think the prospect of them pulling the plug in a VONC if faced with the prospect of a WA variant eventually passing.
    Suspect the DUP will use threat of VONC to see off PM May rather than a GE. At first anyway.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    kjohnw said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Maggie also helped create the single market
    She didn’t advocate unlimited immigration or an unelected European superstate
    https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1098179419657654272
    Once upon a time, Gisela Stuart was also favourable towards the EU.

    Strange how first hand experience of the working of EU institutions often causes people to change their mind.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725
    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Maggie also helped create the single market
    She didn’t advocate unlimited immigration or an unelected European superstate
    https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1098179419657654272
    That does not imply she advocated Unlimited EU immigration .
    At which point in her 11 years did she question the principle of free movement? How can you have the "full benefit of a single large market" if you face restrictions on where you can work?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    dots said:

    dots said:

    dots said:

    dots said:

    dots said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Oh how everyone mocked when we told them it was

    *ALL ABOUT IRELAND*

    But people tried to wave it away. It was always about NI. May could never be the PM who destabilised Ireland.
    Or lost Scotland
    How come it was so obvious to us? You had better stand for the party as a sensible candidate vs what we have now.
    The interesting thing is that she knew all of this in 2016, but still chose to test hard Brexit to destruction.
    Are you happy brexit is now going to happen William? Relieved? Where does your fight go from here?
    Brexit going to happen? What makes you think that?
    Mays deal + CU plus confirmatory ref is still brexit isn’t it?
    May's deal + CU is a long way from being a done deal, and a confirmatory ref would mean a strong chance we vote Remain.
    Confirmatory ref won’t have remain on it. It’s a confirmatory ref like 75. Do you back Tess and Jez lovebird deal y/n
    Don't be naive. In any referendum the 'no' option would mean revocation.
    This has been

    There’s a thousand ways to ref this. The most sensible one once it passes the commons is do you back it yes/no. Simple as that.

    Just like 75, do you accept Labours renegotiation on terms of entry. All no meant back in 75 was tweak it again, maybe back to people again. Or maybe not, don’t have to once through Parliament. Heath didn’t bother.

    That’s a confirmatory vote

    What, when you heard corbyn talking about one you thought it was something different did you?
    Bottom line, ERG spitting teeth. blukip cutting up their cards leaving the party in droves. But the great remain dream also died tonight.
    I don't think Remain died tonight. If the outcome is that a very soft Brexit gets put up against Remain in a referendum, with Labour, Lib Dems, TIG, SNP et al campaigning for Remain, I imagine that lots of Brexit supporters would not bother to vote, and Remain would win.

    It would be a different matter, I think, if the Conservative and Labour frontbenchers struck a deal, and were both committed to campaign in favour of it in a referendum. In that case, voting for the deal would seem the sensible option.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited April 2019
    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    You are right, Maggie would never have gone through the lobbies with Corbyn. QED.
    But TM has just betrayed her promises on brexit , she has disregarded the views of the Tory membership and over half her MPs and now wants a labour style brexit , she is pathetic
    No wonder you are disappointed if you cannot differentiate between the WA, the PD, and whatever deal we eventually might have ended up with.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Maggie also helped create the single market
    She didn’t advocate unlimited immigration or an unelected European superstate
    https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1098179419657654272
    That does not imply she advocated Unlimited EU immigration .
    At which point in her 11 years did she question the principle of free movement? How can you have the "full benefit of a single large market" if you face restrictions on where you can work?
    Bruges Speech?
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    You are right, Maggie would never have gone through the lobbies with Corbyn. QED.
    But TM has just betrayed her promises on brexit , she has disregarded the views of the Tory membership and over half her MPs and now wants a labour style brexit , she is pathetic
    So you keep saying, ignoring the fact that if the ERG and fellow travellers had not teamed up with Corbyn, trashed the possibility of an orderly Brexit, given cover to hard-core Remainers to vote against the deal, and left us at the mercy of an utterly disastrous crash-out in direct contradiction of everything the Leave campaigns promised, we'd have left the EU three days ago.
    Perhaps if she hadn’t tied us into a backstop and refused to deal with the EU until they were prepared to talk future trade then the ERG could have supported her. Perhaps if she had listened to her brexit secretary and gone Canada plus we may have had a deal by now .
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725

    kjohnw said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Maggie also helped create the single market
    She didn’t advocate unlimited immigration or an unelected European superstate
    https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1098179419657654272
    Once upon a time, Gisela Stuart was also favourable towards the EU.

    Strange how first hand experience of the working of EU institutions often causes people to change their mind.
    Barbara Castle campaigned vociferously to leave and then changed her mind and became a successful MEP.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    jeepers. The suns got a Labour leader in a lightbulb. 🥴
    Creepers. mondasian cyberman staring out at us from the times 🤗
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    You are right, Maggie would never have gone through the lobbies with Corbyn. QED.
    But TM has just betrayed her promises on brexit , she has disregarded the views of the Tory membership and over half her MPs and now wants a labour style brexit , she is pathetic
    So you keep saying, ignoring the fact that if the ERG and fellow travellers had not teamed up with Corbyn, trashed the possibility of an orderly Brexit, given cover to hard-core Remainers to vote against the deal, and left us at the mercy of an utterly disastrous crash-out in direct contradiction of everything the Leave campaigns promised, we'd have left the EU three days ago.
    Perhaps if she hadn’t tied us into a backstop and refused to deal with the EU until they were prepared to talk future trade then the ERG could have supported her. Perhaps if she had listened to her brexit secretary and gone Canada plus we may have had a deal by now .
    For real?

    Have you not worked out why the backstop is so important?

    Actually you have done me a favour. To bed.

    (For tomorrow we rise at dawn...)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited April 2019
    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    You are right, Maggie would never have gone through the lobbies with Corbyn. QED.
    But TM has just betrayed her promises on brexit , she has disregarded the views of the Tory membership and over half her MPs and now wants a labour style brexit , she is pathetic
    So you keep saying, ignoring the fact that if the ERG and fellow travellers had not teamed up with Corbyn, trashed the possibility of an orderly Brexit, given cover to hard-core Remainers to vote against the deal, and left us at the mercy of an utterly disastrous crash-out in direct contradiction of everything the Leave campaigns promised, we'd have left the EU three days ago.
    Perhaps if she hadn’t tied us into a backstop and refused to deal with the EU until they were prepared to talk future trade then the ERG could have supported her. Perhaps if she had listened to her brexit secretary and gone Canada plus we may have had a deal by now .
    Perhaps. But all the evidence suggests otherwise, and even if it didn't, the fact still remains that the ERG teamed up with Corbyn to torpedo Brexit in the lobbies.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    Maggie also helped create the single market
    She didn’t advocate unlimited immigration or an unelected European superstate
    https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1098179419657654272
    That does not imply she advocated Unlimited EU immigration .
    At which point in her 11 years did she question the principle of free movement? How can you have the "full benefit of a single large market" if you face restrictions on where you can work?
    Bruges Speech?
    Nothing against free movement in that speech, but a lot in favour of freedom.

    The aim of a Europe open to enterprise is the moving force behind the creation of the Single European Market in 1992. By getting rid of barriers, by making it possible for companies to operate on a European scale, we can best compete with the United States, Japan and other new economic powers emerging in Asia and elsewhere.

    And that means action to free markets, action to widen choice, action to reduce government intervention.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Mortimer said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Can you explain how the ERG call a vonc
    Hundred plus tories side with opposition
    You are upset and not thinking this through

    A vonc would need to be called by the opposition party and any conservative vonc results in instant loss of the whip and cannot stand as a conservative in the next election

    I would expect no conservatives vonc their own government but if so, they are no loss to the party
    We don't have a majority - we could lose a VONC with every Tory voting with the Govt...
    There are also 4 fewer Tory MPs than there were 2 months ago.

    Although Boles will probably make an emotional speech tomorrow recanting his emotional speech of yesterday.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Xtrain said:

    TOPPING said:

    If you are a Brexit opponent and you aren't getting a belly laugh out of tweets like this you need to sign up for some Schadenfreude classes.

    https://twitter.com/Brexiteer30/status/1113184746350276615

    Must come as a huge relief to moderate Tory MPs.
    I think the big question is straight down the middle or at a jaunty angle?
    It's the cancelling of the direct debits that will hurt.
    If they remember to cancel them!
    Delicious thought.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Scott_P said:

    The premature letters to Graham Brady by the headbangers looking more and more like a masterstroke today...

    Who delivered the epochal final 0.00000000000000000000001 of a letter? On their shoulders rides history. I guess we’ll never know.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    According to the times, A judge told a court it is a fundamental human right for a man to have sex with his wife.

    Time for him to retire I think, about 280 years ago.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    edited April 2019
    TOPPING said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    You are right, Maggie would never have gone through the lobbies with Corbyn. QED.
    But TM has just betrayed her promises on brexit , she has disregarded the views of the Tory membership and over half her MPs and now wants a labour style brexit , she is pathetic
    So you keep saying, ignoring the fact that if the ERG and fellow travellers had not teamed up with Corbyn, trashed the possibility of an orderly Brexit, given cover to hard-core Remainers to vote against the deal, and left us at the mercy of an utterly disastrous crash-out in direct contradiction of everything the Leave campaigns promised, we'd have left the EU three days ago.
    Perhaps if she hadn’t tied us into a backstop and refused to deal with the EU until they were prepared to talk future trade then the ERG could have supported her. Perhaps if she had listened to her brexit secretary and gone Canada plus we may have had a deal by now .
    For real?

    Have you not worked out why the backstop is so important?

    Actually you have done me a favour. To bed.

    (For tomorrow we rise at dawn...)
    There are sensible technological alternatives to the backstop. It has been used as a political lever by the EU and TM to give us BINO
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Mortimer said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    The erg may as well pull the plug on the government they have nothing to lose . VONC and general election . If corbyn wins the tories will have a new leader who can campaign on real brexit platform

    Can you explain how the ERG call a vonc
    Hundred plus tories side with opposition
    You are upset and not thinking this through

    A vonc would need to be called by the opposition party and any conservative vonc results in instant loss of the whip and cannot stand as a conservative in the next election

    I would expect no conservatives vonc their own government but if so, they are no loss to the party
    We don't have a majority - we could lose a VONC with every Tory voting with the Govt...
    There are also 4 fewer Tory MPs than there were 2 months ago.

    Although Boles will probably make an emotional speech tomorrow recanting his emotional speech of yesterday.
    There are fewer Labour MPs as well. You can't count on the various independents voting with Corbyn against the government. They'll do what they think is in their interests (or their view of the country's interests, which is much the same thing).
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited April 2019
    So once the Tories have got Jezza to get them out of the shit May's got them into what on Earth are they going to say about Jezza in a general election?

    How can they attack him for being "dangerous" a "risk to the economy" a "danger to the Union" etc etc when it's Jezza who has literally saved the country from the cliff edge the Tories themselves took us towards...

    At an instant every single Tory attack line against Jezza is torn up.

    The next election (which if Jezza is smart will be within weeks) will be an election where the Tories have **** all to say. :D
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kjohnw said:

    TOPPING said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    kjohnw said:

    No most Tory members want no deal it over soft brexit . Your party is screwed after tonight. You will lose the next GE with sleeper agent Theresa at the helm , how she can do a deal with a Marxist like corbyn is beyond belief . Maggie would never have taken us here

    Hang on, I thought you were just saying that a 'hundred plus tories' would side with the Marxist Corbyn against her. Are you invoking Maggie's ghost on their side?
    Maggie wouldn’t have done a deal with such as corbyn . And she would have stood up to the EU unlike TM. She has just told half of her party to FO . That does not bode well for her or her party.
    You are right, Maggie would never have gone through the lobbies with Corbyn. QED.
    But TM has just betrayed her promises on brexit , she has disregarded the views of the Tory membership and over half her MPs and now wants a labour style brexit , she is pathetic
    So you keep saying, ignoring the fact that if the ERG and fellow travellers had not teamed up with Corbyn, trashed the possibility of an orderly Brexit, given cover to hard-core Remainers to vote against the deal, and left us at the mercy of an utterly disastrous crash-out in direct contradiction of everything the Leave campaigns promised, we'd have left the EU three days ago.
    Perhaps if she hadn’t tied us into a backstop and refused to deal with the EU until they were prepared to talk future trade then the ERG could have supported her. Perhaps if she had listened to her brexit secretary and gone Canada plus we may have had a deal by now .
    For real?

    Have you not worked out why the backstop is so important?

    Actually you have done me a favour. To bed.

    (For tomorrow we rise at dawn...)
    There are sensible technological alternatives to the backstop. It has been used as a political lever by the EU and TM to give us BINO
    No there aren't. Not credible ones.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    GIN1138 said:

    So once the Tories have got Jezza to get them out of the shit May's got them into what on Earth are they going to say about Jezza in a general election?

    How can they attack him for being "dangerous" a "risk to the economy" a "danger to the Union" etc etc when it's Jezza who has literally saved the country from the cliff edge the Tories themselves took us towards...

    At an instant every single Tory attack line against Jezza is torn up.

    The next election (which if Jezza is smart will be within weeks) will be an election where the Tories have **** all to say. :D

    They could try saying they have better policies than him.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    So once the Tories have got Jezza to get them out of the shit May's got them into what on Earth are they going to say about Jezza in a general election?

    How can they attack him for being "dangerous" a "risk to the economy" a "danger to the Union" etc etc when it's Jezza who has literally saved the country from the cliff edge the Tories themselves took us towards...

    At an instant every single Tory attack line against Jezza is torn up.

    The next election (which if Jezza is smart will be within weeks) will be an election where the Tories have **** all to say. :D

    They could try saying they have better policies than him.
    What policies?
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    I hope these Tory membership cards can be recycled, or are biodegradable.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    kle4 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    So once the Tories have got Jezza to get them out of the shit May's got them into what on Earth are they going to say about Jezza in a general election?

    How can they attack him for being "dangerous" a "risk to the economy" a "danger to the Union" etc etc when it's Jezza who has literally saved the country from the cliff edge the Tories themselves took us towards...

    At an instant every single Tory attack line against Jezza is torn up.

    The next election (which if Jezza is smart will be within weeks) will be an election where the Tories have **** all to say. :D

    They could try saying they have better policies than him.
    The Tories have policies? Who knew!!!! :D
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    GIN1138 said:

    So once the Tories have got Jezza to get them out of the shit May's got them into what on Earth are they going to say about Jezza in a general election?

    How can they attack him for being "dangerous" a "risk to the economy" a "danger to the Union" etc etc when it's Jezza who has literally saved the country from the cliff edge the Tories themselves took us towards...

    At an instant every single Tory attack line against Jezza is torn up.

    The next election (which if Jezza is smart will be within weeks) will be an election where the Tories have **** all to say. :D

    Since you are a Corbyn supporter, you should be happy.
This discussion has been closed.