Revoke will only happen if May goes for no deal and panic breaks out with the pound imploding. Panic buying and an air of utter chaos might push MPs to agree .
The no dealers either seem to think everything will turn out okay or are so idealogically obsessed with Brexit they don’t care what happens .
I have serious problems with no dealers as opposed to Leavers who want an orderly exit . To be blunt I utterly despise those pushing for no deal , they are a disgrace to the country and are acting against the national interest.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary. If they simply cannot get their manifesto committment honoured something else should take it's place. Governments roll with the punches, they don't have to collapse, even on a big issue, if they cannot get their manifesto committments through.
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. Gender aside, I feel pretty much the same about Brexit. May should have stuck to her Lancaster House speech and the manifesto. A trade deal would have been ideal but having spurned the chance to go for a Canada type deal, then no deal works.
If she can’t deliver on her manifesto she should resign. If another leader gets elected on a different manifesto commitment then that is democracy.
As John Congreve put it
"Pause Lady if you may while I recount, What obstacles you must surmount."
The polls have turned against leave. There have been a million people waving EU flags on the streets of London. A petition calling for article 50 to be revoked has pulled in over 6 million votes. The Conservative Party is in turmoil with even pro-leave cabinet ministers being threatened with deselection. The whips writ barely runs in the whips office itself. Brexit has already been cancelled once, and there is no clear plan for how to get it back on course. To do so may be impossible.
May can't deliver on her manifesto. No other potential leader can deliver the manifesto. Gandalf the fucking wizard couldn't deliver it.
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
It didn't win a majority.
Why not the DUP manifesto?
Because the gains were made by Labour who also campaigned on a Leave platform and its the Tories who are in power albeit courtesy of the DUP who are more supportive of the Tory manifesto on Brexit than many Tories.
The DUP have said they now want to remain or Common Market 2
ERG and DUP now brexit polar opposites
You could not make it up
I haven’t seen that myself but I’ll take your word for it. Last I heard the DUP wanted a long extension before Brexit kicked in rather than the WA. Can’t blame them for that.
Position has changed in the last few days. In truth they would prefer to remain but have not said so officially
However, in any vonc I expect they would support the government
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
It didn't win a majority.
Why not the DUP manifesto?
Because the gains were made by Labour who also campaigned on a Leave platform and its the Tories who are in power albeit courtesy of the DUP who are more supportive of the Tory manifesto on Brexit than many Tories.
The DUP have said they now want to remain or Common Market 2
ERG and DUP now brexit polar opposites
You could not make it up
The DUP made a mistake in supporting Leave when the status quo was their friend. They compounded that mistake by throwing their lot in with Tory Brexiteers who don't share their unionist interests.
Credit where it's due, the DUP have been principled throughout (whether you agree with those principles or not). Unlike at least half of the Tory MPs who rejected May's Deal as vassalage, and still think it is, but voted for it for tactical reasons.
You want the Tory manifesto because they lost seats to Labour...
Do you understand how elections work?
I want the Tory manifesto because the Tories are in Gov so your question is one for you to answer.
Manifestos require legislative action. The people who published the manifesto do not command a majority in the legislature. As a result they cannot pass all the legislation required to fulfil the manifesto and therefore need to find alternatives. Is that so hard to understand?
The MPs seem to want to make this unnecessarily complicated. d be it?
'A' permanent customs union will destroy a significant proportion of our non EU trade overnight.
Presumably during the two years of our transition we would negotiate the requisite FTAs with those non EU trade partners.
Go Liam.
Why would they in "a" customs union they have access to our market anyway. The only way this works is if we're in "the" customs union
It is asymmetric if it is "a" customs union. Unless we have the accompanying FTAs. Otherwise we have to let goods in tariff free but our goods are subject to tariffs.
Well that's the point, if we signal that we intend to be in "a" customs union permanently with the EU which non-EU country that currently trades with the EU would bother signing a trade deal with us?
That's why this is a disaster idea and MPs are being complete fucking idiots about it.
Maybe but, in the immortal phrase, we are where we are. It is the option that is getting the largest cross party support. We need to come up with a solution and short of CM1.0 which the voters rejected in 2016 I don't see an alternative, pragmatically.
It's getting the most cross party support because MPs are complete idiots. The WA keeps us in all the EU trade deals for two years anyway, but unless our objective is to stay in "the" customs union we'd basically be in the worst trading position of all OECD countries.
It's something that Labour have latched on to as a stick with which to beat the government, but I'm reality we're being led up the garden path by a bunch of know nothings. Honestly, it's stuff like this that makes me want to run for office but then I remember I loathe politiciansand in the end, the suit becomes the man.
The reason why the customs union is popular is because it honours the referendum result, whilst avoiding a BINO and a hard border in Northern Ireland. The fact that we would be in a poor trading position amongst OECD countries is a matter of no interest to most voters. No one cares what experts think anyway, particularly bankers, as we established in 2016. Politicians understand that this is not an objective exercise in deciding what the best option is. Politicians in a democracy are not for the most part idiots, they are heavily constrained by public opinion.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary. If they simply cannot get their manifesto committment honoured something else should take it's place. Governments roll with the punches, they don't have to collapse, even on a big issue, if they cannot get their manifesto committments through.
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. Gender aside, I feel pretty much the same about Brexit. May should have stuck to her Lancaster House speech and the manifesto. A trade deal would have been ideal but having spurned the chance to go for a Canada type deal, then no deal works.
If she can’t deliver on her manifesto she should resign. If another leader gets elected on a different manifesto commitment then that is democracy.
As John Congreve put it
"Pause Lady if you may while I recount, What obstacles you must surmount."
The polls have turned against leave. There have been a million people waving EU flags on the streets of London. A petition calling for article 50 to be revoked has pulled in over 6 million votes. The Conservative Party is in turmoil with even pro-leave cabinet ministers being threatened with deselection. The whips writ barely runs in the whips office itself. Brexit has already been cancelled once, and there is no clear plan for how to get it back on course. To do so may be impossible.
May can't deliver on her manifesto. No other potential leader can deliver the manifesto. Gandalf the fucking wizard couldn't deliver it.
Polls are not how Gov’s are decided and if May can’t deliver she should step down now.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. .
Yes, and that's a pretty stupid quote, no matter how great a PM they were. You cannot always get what you promised - sometimes you don't even want to as what you promised may, completely innocently, not be as good an idea as you thought or things may have changed - and you don't resign every time you cannot get a manifesto committment through, I bet she had u-turns in her 11 years in office.
Something this big? Sure, maybe. But Thatcher's quip about not turning is just that, a quip and nothing more. People who refuse to even contemplate changing position are recklessly inflexible, it's why Corbyn's touted 'consistency' of views over decades is so worrying.
Rawnesley's characteristically sharp piece in the Observer today cited exactly that feature as one of the reasons why May is likely to go down as one of the worst PM's in the last hundred years.
Interestingly he gave as the four worst to date Ramsay McDonald, Chamberlain, Eden and Cameron. Not sure of I agree with that last one, and personally I'd have Baldwin in my worst four, but am sure PBers will have plenty of opinions on the matter!
Why Baldwin? He strikes me as OK. He brought the Tory party into the modern age, and won elections with a quadrupled electorate. He also appointed Chamberlain as CoE, a job that he did rather well at.
The big question is whether Utd will roll over on derby day to stop Liverpool winning the title. I think they might. A title for Liverpool is a living nightmare for Utd supporters. They can live with City winning it.
Yes, it's not like Man Utd need the points, is it?
Plus United fans do not want the treble equalled/superseded.
Still think they’d trade that to avoid a Scouser title.
Wouldn't we all
People say that, and I know what you mean (we’d never hear the end of it!). But City buying the league sticks in the craw and the pseudo-Scousers on here, who have no discernible connection with Merseyside, are clearly decent folk - Eagles, KLE4
I never quite understand why TSE, a proud Yorkshireman would want anything to do with a team from LANCASHIRE!!!!!
They play in Lancashire, from Lancashire is not so
You want the Tory manifesto because they lost seats to Labour...
Do you understand how elections work?
I want the Tory manifesto because the Tories are in Gov so your question is one for you to answer.
Yes, but a Manifesto is a sort of wish list. Once in Government, a Party has to govern on behalf of the whole country, not just the bits that voted for it.
If you think No Deal is the outcome when a majority of MPs, the public, and the EU oppose it, I have a bridge to sell you.
for it if it came with a confirmatory vote, and the other half would only support it if it doesn't.
The players in the game will find a way to avoid their most disliked outcome - No Deal.
Revoke and extend beyond May are both more disliked than no deal.
Anyone who has ever been to a Tory members meeting understands that.
It isn’t about the Tory party anymore.
That’s why Brexit is failing. It’s been treated throughout as if it were a private matter for the Conservative party instead of the future of the entire country.
If Brexit ends up devouring the Conservative party it will be the purest moment of political karma in British history. Their arrogance in foisting this disaster on the country in pursuit of their own interests has been breathtaking.
Precisely. Never has so much been lost by so many to benefit so few.
A silly way of looking at it, a comforting deception even. Whatever the motivation behind it the thing being 'foisted' was requested by 17 million people, which is well more than some Tory only issue.
Brexit has diminished the UK economically, politically and socially. You may think that is what people voted for but I beg to differ.
That's not what I said at all. Whatever people wanted we were all warned it would do all of those things, the decision was not foistered on anyone, that's why it is a comforting deception to blame the political actors in all this for the decision. The people made the choice, having been told the very best and very worst that could happen, we cannot get away from that. I cannot blame my vote on the Tories, nor should I be allowed to. Some blame? Sure. But talk of it being foisted on people is simply untrue.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
So would I, but the Conservatives fell just short of a majority, so they need to adjust accordingly.
With DUP support - not really.
The DUP do not support the government over Brexit.
They don’t support the WA but then who can blame them. The manifesto said zilch about a backstop.
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
It didn't win a majority.
Why not the DUP manifesto?
Because the gains were made by Labour who also campaigned on a Leave platform and its the Tories who are in power albeit courtesy of the DUP who are more supportive of the Tory manifesto on Brexit than many Tories.
How does that work? Because Labour gained seats then that means the Tory manifesto should be honoured? They’re a minority government and minority governments don’t get to do everything in their manifesto.
Ignoring the fact that abiding by the referendum was also one of Labour's manifesto pledges.
Indeed the one UK wide party that supported reversing the referendum result actually managed to lose votes compared to the previous election.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary. If they simply cannot get their manifesto committment honoured something else should take it's place. Governments roll with the punches, they don't have to collapse, even on a big issue, if they cannot get their manifesto committments through.
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. Gender aside, I feel pretty much the same about Brexit. May should have stuck to her Lancaster House speech and the manifesto. A trade deal would have been ideal but having spurned the chance to go for a Canada type deal, then no deal works.
If she can’t deliver on her manifesto she should resign. If another leader gets elected on a different manifesto commitment then that is democracy.
As John Congreve put it
"Pause Lady if you may while I recount, What obstacles you must surmount."
The polls have turned against leave. There have been a million people waving EU flags on the streets of London. A petition calling for article 50 to be revoked has pulled in over 6 million votes. The Conservative Party is in turmoil with even pro-leave cabinet ministers being threatened with deselection. The whips writ barely runs in the whips office itself. Brexit has already been cancelled once, and there is no clear plan for how to get it back on course. To do so may be impossible.
May can't deliver on her manifesto. No other potential leader can deliver the manifesto. Gandalf the fucking wizard couldn't deliver it.
Polls are not how Gov’s are decided and if May can’t deliver she should step down now.
The big question is whether Utd will roll over on derby day to stop Liverpool winning the title. I think they might. A title for Liverpool is a living nightmare for Utd supporters. They can live with City winning it.
Yes, it's not like Man Utd need the points, is it?
Plus United fans do not want the treble equalled/superseded.
Still think they’d trade that to avoid a Scouser title.
Wouldn't we all
People say that, and I know what you mean (we’d never hear the end of it!). But City buying the league sticks in the craw and the pseudo-Scousers on here, who have no discernible connection with Merseyside, are clearly decent folk - Eagles, KLE4
I never quite understand why TSE, a proud Yorkshireman would want anything to do with a team from LANCASHIRE!!!!!
It is the product of being a child in the 80s.
Football wasn't safe in general or welcoming for non whites in the 80s so I wasn't allowed to go to football matches.
There weren't many games on telly and Liverpool were the only side that appeared a lot so they became my team. Plus my father liked them, so one of my earliest Christmas presents was a Liverpool shirt.
Plus in my lifetime Liverpool hasn't been in Lancashire.
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Any who signed the no deal letter for a start. Isn't that meant to be Hunt and Javid?
I have not seen the No Deal letter, nor the signatories. Has it been made public?
I don't think it has (which is really odd considering we can live updates from Cabinet and Tory whatsapp groups), although if that many signed it I think it highly doubful some members of the Cabinet did not back it.
You want the Tory manifesto because they lost seats to Labour...
Do you understand how elections work?
I want the Tory manifesto because the Tories are in Gov so your question is one for you to answer.
Yes, but a Manifesto is a sort of wish list. Once in Government, a Party has to govern on behalf of the whole country, not just the bits that voted for it.
Sure - but that doesn’t mean the manifesto is abandoned. It means that Gov’s are more broadly based than a single issue - usually.
You want the Tory manifesto because they lost seats to Labour...
Do you understand how elections work?
I want the Tory manifesto because the Tories are in Gov so your question is one for you to answer.
Manifestos require legislative action. The people who published the manifesto do not command a majority in the legislature. As a result they cannot pass all the legislation required to fulfil the manifesto and therefore need to find alternatives. Is that so hard to understand?
You'd think not. As much as any manifesto can be considered a mandate the Tories receive more backing for theirs than anyone else did, but simply fact is you pass what you can and don't call new elections every time you cannot. Presumably the manifesto didn't say anything about a billion more for Northern Ireland, but the money was found nonetheless.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
So would I, but the Conservatives fell just short of a majority, so they need to adjust accordingly.
With DUP support - not really.
The DUP do not support the government over Brexit.
Then don’t support the WA but then who can blame them. The manifesto said zilch about a backstop.
Well, we don't get Brexit without it. I'd rather get Brexit with the backstop, than have no Brexit.
The reason why the customs union is popular is because it honours the referendum result, whilst avoiding a BINO and a hard border in Northern Ireland. The fact that we would be in a poor trading position amongst OECD countries is a matter of no interest to most voters. No one cares what experts think anyway, particularly bankers, as we established in 2016. Politicians understand that this is not an objective exercise in deciding what the best option is. Politicians in a democracy are not for the most part idiots, they are heavily constrained by public opinion.
No, that's just stupid. Just pass the WA, avoid no deal and then see what the EU will accomodate on customs in a longer term situation after it has passed. Put it in the Labour manifesto for all I care. Just pass the bloody WA and get the no deal off the table.
Labour MPs are either cynical or stupid. Maybe both. Whatever happens we need to pass the WA and the government just offered it with no strings attached and Labour still voted it down. They are more idiotic than the Tories who voted against it.
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
It didn't win a majority.
Why not the DUP manifesto?
Because the gains were made by Labour who also campaigned on a Leave platform and its the Tories who are in power albeit courtesy of the DUP who are more supportive of the Tory manifesto on Brexit than many Tories.
How does that work? Because Labour gained seats then that means the Tory manifesto should be honoured? They’re a minority government and minority governments don’t get to do everything in their manifesto.
Ignoring the fact that abiding by the referendum was also one of Labour's manifesto pledges.
Indeed the one UK wide party that supported reversing the referendum result actually managed to lose votes compared to the previous election.
Labour's manifesto also rejected a No Deal Brexit.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary. If they simply cannot get their manifesto committment honoured something else should take it's place. Governments roll with the punches, they don't have to collapse, even on a big issue, if they cannot get their manifesto committments through.
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. Gender aside, I feel pretty much the same about Brexit. May should have stuck to her Lancaster House speech and the manifesto. A trade deal would have been ideal but having spurned the chance to go for a Canada type deal, then no deal works.
If she can’t deliver on her manifesto she should resign. If another leader gets elected on a different manifesto commitment then that is democracy.
As John Congreve put it
"Pause Lady if you may while I recount, What obstacles you must surmount."
The polls have tur
May can't deliver on her manifesto. No other potential leader can deliver the manifesto. Gandalf the fucking wizard couldn't deliver it.
Polls are not how Gov’s are decided and if May can’t deliver she should step down now.
And then what?
Magically the manifesto will be delivered, because she alone is the obstacle to that.
Revoke will only happen if May goes for no deal and panic breaks out with the pound imploding. Panic buying and an air of utter chaos might push MPs to agree .
The no dealers either seem to think everything will turn out okay or are so idealogically obsessed with Brexit they don’t care what happens .
I have serious problems with no dealers as opposed to Leavers who want an orderly exit . To be blunt I utterly despise those pushing for no deal , they are a disgrace to the country and are acting against the national interest.
I agree but revoke itself requires the HOC consent for the EU elections and frankly, I do not see the political space
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
It didn't win a majority.
Why not the DUP manifesto?
Because the gains were made by Labour who also campaigned on a Leave platform and its the Tories who are in power albeit courtesy of the DUP who are more supportive of the Tory manifesto on Brexit than many Tories.
How does that work? Because Labour gained seats then that means the Tory manifesto should be honoured? They’re a minority government and minority governments don’t get to do everything in their manifesto.
Ignoring the fact that abiding by the referendum was also one of Labour's manifesto pledges.
Indeed the one UK wide party that supported reversing the referendum result actually managed to lose votes compared to the previous election.
The manifesto said what a Labour government would do, not what a Labour opposition would do.
You want the Tory manifesto because they lost seats to Labour...
Do you understand how elections work?
I want the Tory manifesto because the Tories are in Gov so your question is one for you to answer.
Yes, but a Manifesto is a sort of wish list. Once in Government, a Party has to govern on behalf of the whole country, not just the bits that voted for it.
There's good reasons why manifesto's are not legally binding, because no one wants something pulled together at often short notice by a small group to lock them into positions forevermore. It just means there is a political cost to not doing it. Sometimes the cost is worth paying, sometimes it has to be paid. When you don't win a majority you even have a good excuse for having to pay that price.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. .
Yes, and that's a pretty stupid quote, no matter how great a PM they were. You cannot always geuse to even contemplate changing position are recklessly inflexible, it's why Corbyn's touted 'consistency' of views over decades is so worrying.
Rawnesley's characteristically sharp piece in the Observer today cited exactly that feature as one of the reasons why May is likely to go down as one of the worst PM's in the last hundred years.
Interestingly he gave as the four worst to date Ramsay McDonald, Chamberlain, Eden and Cameron. Not sure of I agree with that last one, and personally I'd have Baldwin in my worst four, but am sure PBers will have plenty of opinions on the matter!
Why Baldwin? He strikes me as OK. He brought the Tory party into the modern age, and won elections with a quadrupled electorate. He also appointed Chamberlain as CoE, a job that he did rather well at.
He was generally a sort of 'go with the flow' politician, bland but pragmatic enough. Unfortunately it was period when active management was necessary, mainly to combat unemployment and the rise of fascism. He complacency in respect of latter made him one of the 'Guilty Men' responsible from Britain's vulnerability at the start of the second world war.
The Tory manifesto in Scotland was different to the one in England and much more successful. It focussed on the union and not brexit. There is no mandate for Scottish toriy mps to support a hard brexit. With Ruth Davidson back next month their attention will come back to following their true mandate
Revoke will only happen if May goes for no deal and panic breaks out with the pound imploding. Panic buying and an air of utter chaos might push MPs to agree .
The no dealers either seem to think everything will turn out okay or are so idealogically obsessed with Brexit they don’t care what happens .
I have serious problems with no dealers as opposed to Leavers who want an orderly exit . To be blunt I utterly despise those pushing for no deal , they are a disgrace to the country and are acting against the national interest.
I agree but revoke itself requires the HOC consent for the EU elections and frankly, I do not see the political space
I agree too but face the prospect of No Deal with greater equanimity than Nico. Sometimes a Nation just has to go through these traumas.
The reason why the customs union is popular is because it honours the referendum result, whilst avoiding a BINO and a hard border in Northern Ireland. The fact that we would be in a poor trading position amongst OECD countries is a matter of no interest to most voters. No one cares what experts think anyway, particularly bankers, as we established in 2016. Politicians understand that this is not an objective exercise in deciding what the best option is. Politicians in a democracy are not for the most part idiots, they are heavily constrained by public opinion.
No, that's just stupid. Just pass the WA, avoid no deal and then see what the EU will accomodate on customs in a longer term situation after it has passed. Put it in the Labour manifesto for all I care. Just pass the bloody WA and get the no deal off the table.
Labour MPs are either cynical or stupid. Maybe both. Whatever happens we need to pass the WA and the government just offered it with no strings attached and Labour still voted it down. They are more idiotic than the Tories who voted against it.
I wouldn't say that Labour MP's are idiots for voting against the deal. Labour has an interest in a no deal Brexit, because it could lead them to power. The reality is that they have no interest in helping May's deal over the line.
Revoke will only happen if May goes for no deal and panic breaks out with the pound imploding. Panic buying and an air of utter chaos might push MPs to agree .
The no dealers either seem to think everything will turn out okay or are so idealogically obsessed with Brexit they don’t care what happens .
I have serious problems with no dealers as opposed to Leavers who want an orderly exit . To be blunt I utterly despise those pushing for no deal , they are a disgrace to the country and are acting against the national interest.
I agree but revoke itself requires the HOC consent for the EU elections and frankly, I do not see the political space
I agree too but face the prospect of No Deal with greater equanimity than Nico. Sometimes a Nation just has to go through these traumas.
Why it’s not a war . No nation should self inflict harm against itself .
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
It didn't win a majority.
Why not the DUP manifesto?
Because the gains were made by Labour who also campaigned on a Leave platform and its the Tories who are in power albeit courtesy of the DUP who are more supportive of the Tory manifesto on Brexit than many Tories.
How does that work? Because Labour gained seats then that means the Tory manifesto should be honoured? They’re a minority government and minority governments don’t get to do everything in their manifesto.
Ignoring the fact that abiding by the referendum was also one of Labour's manifesto pledges.
Indeed the one UK wide party that supported reversing the referendum result actually managed to lose votes compared to the previous election.
Labour's manifesto also rejected a No Deal Brexit.
The Labour manifesto also made no mention of 29th March 2019 being the unchangeable exit day; and it explicitly reserved the right to vote against May's deal (if it failed their "six tests").
People can say Labour's positions on rejecting May's deal / delaying Brexit are wrong, or contradictory, or that the "six tests" were impossible to meet, or whatever - but they can't say that Labour's voters in 2017 didn't give them a mandate for those positions.
The only case where Labour's arguably been in breach of their 2017 manifesto in relation to Brexit was in voting for a second referendum last week (the manifesto itself didn't rule that out, but Corbyn did say a few times in interviews during the election campaign that he opposed one).
The reason why the customs union is popular is because it honours the referendum result, whilst avoiding a BINO and a hard border in Northern Ireland. The fact that we would be in a poor trading position amongst OECD countries is a matter of no interest to most voters. No one cares what experts think anyway, particularly bankers, as we established in 2016. Politicians understand that this is not an objective exercise in deciding what the best option is. Politicians in a democracy are not for the most part idiots, they are heavily constrained by public opinion.
No, that's just stupid. Just pass the WA, avoid no deal and then see what the EU will accomodate on customs in a longer term situation after it has passed. Put it in the Labour manifesto for all I care. Just pass the bloody WA and get the no deal off the table.
Labour MPs are either cynical or stupid. Maybe both. Whatever happens we need to pass the WA and the government just offered it with no strings attached and Labour still voted it down. They are more idiotic than the Tories who voted against it.
I wouldn't say that Labour MP's are idiots for voting against the deal. Labour has an interest in a no deal Brexit, because it could lead them to power. The reality is that they have no interest in helping May's deal over the line.
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. .
Yes, and that's a pretty stupid quote, no matter how great a PM they were. You cannot always get what you promised - sometimes you don't even want to as what you promised may, completely innocently, not be as good an idea as you thought or things may have changed - and you don't resign every time you cannot get a manifesto committment through, I bet she had u-turns in her 11 years in office.
Something this big? Sure, maybe. But Thatcher's quip about not turning is just that, a quip and nothing more. People who refuse to even contemplate changing position are recklessly inflexible, it's why Corbyn's touted 'consistency' of views over decades is so worrying.
Rawnesley's characteristically sharp piece in the Observer today cited exactly that feature as one of the reasons why May is likely to go down as one of the worst PM's in the last hundred years.
Interestingly he gave as the four worst to date Ramsay McDonald, Chamberlain, Eden and Cameron. Not sure of I agree with that last one, and personally I'd have Baldwin in my worst four, but am sure PBers will have plenty of opinions on the matter!
The reason why the customs union is popular is because it honours the referendum result, whilst avoiding a BINO and a hard border in Northern Ireland. The fact that we would be in a poor trading position amongst OECD countries is a matter of no interest to most voters. No one cares what experts think anyway, particularly bankers, as we established in 2016. Politicians understand that this is not an objective exercise in deciding what the best option is. Politicians in a democracy are not for the most part idiots, they are heavily constrained by public opinion.
No, that's just stupid. Just pass the WA, avoid no deal and then see what the EU will accomodate on customs in a longer term situation after it has passed. Put it in the Labour manifesto for all I care. Just pass the bloody WA and get the no deal off the table.
Labour MPs are either cynical or stupid. Maybe both. Whatever happens we need to pass the WA and the government just offered it with no strings attached and Labour still voted it down. They are more idiotic than the Tories who voted against it.
I wouldn't say that Labour MP's are idiots for voting against the deal. Labour has an interest in a no deal Brexit, because it could lead them to power. The reality is that they have no interest in helping May's deal over the line.
Cynical, then.
But everything about this is cynical. Calling the referendum, trying to fix the result for remain, project fear, brexit means brexit, no deal is better than a bad deal, crushing the saboteurs. Why should anything change now?
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. .
Yes, and that's a pretty stupid quote, no matter how great a PM they were. You cannot always get what you promised - sometimes you don't even want to as what you promised may, completely innocently, not be as good an idea as you thought or things may have changed - and you don't resign every time you cannot get a manifesto committment through, I bet she had u-turns in her 11 years in office.
Something this big? Sure, maybe. But Thatcher's quip about not turning is just that, a quip and nothing more. People who refuse to even contemplate changing position are recklessly inflexible, it's why Corbyn's touted 'consistency' of views over decades is so worrying.
Rawnesley's characteristically sharp piece in the Observer today cited exactly that feature as one of the reasons why May is likely to go down as one of the worst PM's in the last hundred years.
Interestingly he gave as the four worst to date Ramsay McDonald, Chamberlain, Eden and Cameron. Not sure of I agree with that last one, and personally I'd have Baldwin in my worst four, but am sure PBers will have plenty of opinions on the matter!
Asquith?
Not sure he was reaching back that far, but yes, Asquith is for me one of the worst.
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. .
Yes, and that's a pretty stupid quote, no matter how great a PM they were. You cannot always get what you promised - sometimes you don't even want to as what you promised may, completely innocently, not be as good an idea as you thought or things may have changed - and you don't resign every time you cannot get a manifesto committment through, I bet she had u-turns in her 11 years in office.
Something this big? Sure, maybe. But Thatcher's quip about not turning is just that, a quip and nothing more. People who refuse to even contemplate changing position are recklessly inflexible, it's why Corbyn's touted 'consistency' of views over decades is so worrying.
Rawnesley's characteristically sharp piece in the Observer today cited exactly that feature as one of the reasons why May is likely to go down as one of the worst PM's in the last hundred years.
Interestingly he gave as the four worst to date Ramsay McDonald, Chamberlain, Eden and Cameron. Not sure of I agree with that last one, and personally I'd have Baldwin in my worst four, but am sure PBers will have plenty of opinions on the matter!
Asquith?
Gordon Brown was very bad. He deliberately made a bad situation even worse through profligate spending, embarrassing obsession with Barack Obama and complete inability to communicate to the country.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. .
Yes, and that's a pretty stupid quote, no matter how great a PM they were. You cannot always get what you promised - sometimes you don't even want to as what you promised may, completely innocently, not be as good an idea as you thought or things may have changed - and you don't resign every time you cannot get a manifesto committment through, I bet she had u-turns in her 11 years in office.
Something this big? Sure, maybe. But Thatcher's quip about not turning is just that, a quip and nothing more. People who refuse to even contemplate changing position are recklessly inflexible, it's why Corbyn's touted 'consistency' of views over decades is so worrying.
Rawnesley's characteristically sharp piece in the Observer today cited exactly that feature as one of the reasons why May is likely to go down as one of the worst PM's in the last hundred years.
Interestingly he gave as the four worst to date Ramsay McDonald, Chamberlain, Eden and Cameron. Not sure of I agree with that last one, and personally I'd have Baldwin in my worst four, but am sure PBers will have plenty of opinions on the matter!
Asquith?
It is way to early to judge either Cameron or May.
If English MPs alone had voted on May's Deal last week it would have passed 266 for, 254 against and we would now be ready to Leave the EU on the basis of the WA
ENGLAND: 266 MPs for, 256 MPs against (51%-49%) SCOTLAND: 13 for, 45 against (22%-78%) WALES: 6 for, 33 against (15%-85%) NORTHERN IRELAND: 1 for, 10 against (9%-91%)
You want the Tory manifesto because they lost seats to Labour... Do you understand how elections work?
I want the Tory manifesto because the Tories are in Gov so your question is one for you to answer.
Manifestos require legislative action. The people who published the manifesto do not command a majority in the legislature. As a result they cannot pass all the legislation required to fulfil the manifesto and therefore need to find alternatives. Is that so hard to understand?
You mean the Conservative manifesto was just a list of unrealistic aspirations which had no hope of being implemented. That was not very honest of the Conservatives, was it? But they have too many charlatans and downright liars among their leaders, so we should not be surprised.
Revoke will only happen if May goes for no deal and panic breaks out with the pound imploding. Panic buying and an air of utter chaos might push MPs to agree .
The no dealers either seem to think everything will turn out okay or are so idealogically obsessed with Brexit they don’t care what happens .
I have serious problems with no dealers as opposed to Leavers who want an orderly exit . To be blunt I utterly despise those pushing for no deal , they are a disgrace to the country and are acting against the national interest.
I agree but revoke itself requires the HOC consent for the EU elections and frankly, I do not see the political space
I agree too but face the prospect of No Deal with greater equanimity than Nico. Sometimes a Nation just has to go through these traumas.
Why it’s not a war . No nation should self inflict harm against itself .
Political trauma can be necessary. And it is tough and embarrassing while it happens. And nation's inflict self harm against themselves all the time. In FPTP countries people probably think it happens every time, given a majority don't usually vote for whoever ends up running the country.
Obviously the extent of the current divide and assessment of harm is somewhat exceptional, but nation's make choices others within and without it think are harmful all the time.
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
The Tories are in real trouble over Brexit. The people I have talked to over the last few days who usually support the Tories are starting to get really angry that Brexit is going ahead despite the likely implications of a No Deal Brexit. May has to act in the national interest and revoke article 50. If she sides with the hard Brexit crowd it is not unfeasible that the Tories could suffer a Canadian 1990s style Wipeout.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
I seem to recall the greatest peacetime PM we’ve ever had once saying,in a different context “U turn if you want to, the lady is not for turning”. .
Yes, and that's a pretty stupid quote, no matter how great a PM they were. You cannot always get what you promised - sometimes you don't even want to as what you promised may, completely innocently, not be as good an idea as you thought or things may have changed - and you don't resign every time you cannot get a manifesto committment through, I bet she had u-turns in her 11 years in office.
Something this big? Sure, maybe. But Thatcher's quip about not turning is just that, a quip and nothing more. People who refuse to even contemplate changing position are recklessly inflexible, it's why Corbyn's touted 'consistency' of views over decades is so worrying.
Rawnesley's characteristically sharp piece in the Observer today cited exactly that feature as one of the reasons why May is likely to go down as one of the worst PM's in the last hundred years.
Interestingly he gave as the four worst to date Ramsay McDonald, Chamberlain, Eden and Cameron. Not sure of I agree with that last one, and personally I'd have Baldwin in my worst four, but am sure PBers will have plenty of opinions on the matter!
Asquith?
It is way to early to judge either Cameron or May.
Indeed - many months and even years need to pass to assess their success or failure
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
The Tories are in real trouble over Brexit. The people I have talked to over the last few days who usually support the Tories are starting to get really angry that Brexit is going ahead despite the likely implications of a No Deal Brexit. May has to act in the national interest and revoke article 50. If she sides with the hard Brexit crowd it is not unfeasible that the Tories could suffer a Canadian 1990s style Wipeout.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
The one cooked up by a giant prick that was shat on by the electorate? That one?
The Telegraph reckons 13 no-dealers in the Cabinet and 10 customs union supporters (4 undecided).
Unhelpful for May - she'll presumably side with the majority, and that's too close for comfort.
Just go Customs Union I say. There's probably numbers for it in Parliament and it leaves only the option of a VONC in the government to prevent it. Trying to foster a no deal by default seems far more fraught.
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
The Tories are in real trouble over Brexit. The people I have talked to over the last few days who usually support the Tories are starting to get really angry that Brexit is going ahead despite the likely implications of a No Deal Brexit. May has to act in the national interest and revoke article 50. If she sides with the hard Brexit crowd it is not unfeasible that the Tories could suffer a Canadian 1990s style Wipeout.
You are talking to different Tories than me.....
To be fair I suspect there are many Tories taking many different views but I had a similar experience to Taxman - speaking to a Tory member who cannot understand why his party is putting business at risk and tearing themselves apart. Not all Tory members are rabid Leavers.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
The one cooked up by a giant prick that was shat on by the electorate? That one?
The Tories, and by implication their policy platform, were the most popular at GE 2017. They and it was not shat upon by the electorate. Clearly neither it nor the party were blessed with a clear lead over other parties and policy platforms, and there is no mandate to bully through what was in it, but it is demonstrably untrue to say the manifesto was shat upon when those proposing it won the most votes. Same reasoning Corbyn, despite receiving less backing personally and politically, can truthfully claim the idea his manifesto was despised or clearly rejected is nonsense.
Rawnesley's characteristically sharp piece in the Observer today cited exactly that feature as one of the reasons why May is likely to go down as one of the worst PM's in the last hundred years.
Interestingly he gave as the four worst to date Ramsay McDonald, Chamberlain, Eden and Cameron. Not sure of I agree with that last one, and personally I'd have Baldwin in my worst four, but am sure PBers will have plenty of opinions on the matter!
The worst leader since Charles 1, whom she resembles by being at the same time totally inflexible and utterly untrustworthy. A fatal combination for a leader, as King Charles found out to his cost. The compensation perhaps is that Theresa May might still be better than her successor.
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
The Tories are in real trouble over Brexit. The people I have talked to over the last few days who usually support the Tories are starting to get really angry that Brexit is going ahead despite the likely implications of a No Deal Brexit. May has to act in the national interest and revoke article 50. If she sides with the hard Brexit crowd it is not unfeasible that the Tories could suffer a Canadian 1990s style Wipeout.
You are talking to different Tories than me.....
To be fair I suspect there are many Tories taking many different views but I had a similar experience to Taxman - speaking to a Tory member who cannot understand why his party is putting business at risk and tearing themselves apart. Not all Tory members are rabid Leavers.
The Telegraph reckons 13 no-dealers in the Cabinet and 10 customs union supporters (4 undecided).
I think that's wishful thinking on the Telegraph's part:
Which of these are No Dealers?:
Steve Barclay Karen Bradley James Brokenshire Alun Cairns Greg Clark Geoffrey Cox Leo Docherty Liam Fox David Gauke Michael Gove Chris Grayling Philip Hammond Matt Hancock Damian Hinds Jeremy Hunt Sajid Javid Eleanor Laing Andrea Leadsom Brandon Lewis David Lidington Theresa May Penny Mordaunt David Mundell Caroline Nokes Claire Perry Amber Rudd Julian Smith Liz Truss Gavin Williamson Jeremy Wright
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
The Tories are in real trouble over Brexit. The people I have talked to over the last few days who usually support the Tories are starting to get really angry that Brexit is going ahead despite the likely implications of a No Deal Brexit. May has to act in the national interest and revoke article 50. If she sides with the hard Brexit crowd it is not unfeasible that the Tories could suffer a Canadian 1990s style Wipeout.
You are talking to different Tories than me.....
You probably mix with Brexiteers, I can understand some wanting to leave the EU because of immigration but I feel no advantage in swapping European immigrants for non- Europeans. A Pakistani or Indian on £1 a day will migrate to a country with a minimum wage over £7 per hour, it is a tremendous pull factor even if the rest of the economy is in the doldrums at best...
I mix with centrists, one nation types. The Tories cannot win an election without us centrist/ one nation types just as they cannot without you!
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
The Tories are in real trouble over Brexit. The people I have talked to over the last few days who usually support the Tories are starting to get really angry that Brexit is going ahead despite the likely implications of a No Deal Brexit. May has to act in the national interest and revoke article 50. If she sides with the hard Brexit crowd it is not unfeasible that the Tories could suffer a Canadian 1990s style Wipeout.
You are talking to different Tories than me.....
There were lots of people on the big march who looked and sounded a lot like the kinds of people you'd expect to be Tories. I didn't think the people protesting last Friday looked much like Tories at all.
Gordon Brown was very bad. He deliberately made a bad situation even worse through profligate spending, embarrassing obsession with Barack Obama and complete inability to communicate to the country.
By "deliberately made a bad situation even worse" you mean Gordon Brown led and coordinated the international response to contain the global financial crisis?
The Telegraph reckons 13 no-dealers in the Cabinet and 10 customs union supporters (4 undecided).
I think that's wishful thinking on the Telegraph's part:
Which of these are No Dealers?:
Steve Barclay Karen Bradley James Brokenshire Alun Cairns Greg Clark Geoffrey Cox Leo Docherty Liam Fox David Gauke Michael Gove Chris Grayling Philip Hammond Matt Hancock Damian Hinds Jeremy Hunt Sajid Javid Eleanor Laing Andrea Leadsom Brandon Lewis David Lidington Theresa May Penny Mordaunt David Mundell Caroline Nokes Claire Perry Amber Rudd Julian Smith Liz Truss Gavin Williamson Jeremy Wright
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
The Tories are in real trouble over Brexit. The people I have talked to over the last few days who usually support the Tories are starting to get really angry that Brexit is going ahead despite the likely implications of a No Deal Brexit. May has to act in the national interest and revoke article 50. If she sides with the hard Brexit crowd it is not unfeasible that the Tories could suffer a Canadian 1990s style Wipeout.
You are talking to different Tories than me.....
To be fair I suspect there are many Tories taking many different views but I had a similar experience to Taxman - speaking to a Tory member who cannot understand why his party is putting business at risk and tearing themselves apart. Not all Tory members are rabid Leavers.
Talking about me again Ben !!!
You're one of many Big_G - sensible Tories still exist but both Labour and the Tories seem to be being taken over by extremists.
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
The Tories are in real trouble over Brexit. The people I have talked to over the last few days who usually support the Tories are starting to get really angry that Brexit is going ahead despite the likely implications of a No Deal Brexit. May has to act in the national interest and revoke article 50. If she sides with the hard Brexit crowd it is not unfeasible that the Tories could suffer a Canadian 1990s style Wipeout.
The Tories have become UKIP. If you were a Conservative of a couple of years ago, who opposed UKIP at the time you will be alienated by what the party has become.
The Telegraph reckons 13 no-dealers in the Cabinet and 10 customs union supporters (4 undecided).
I think that's wishful thinking on the Telegraph's part:
Which of these are No Dealers?:
Steve Barclay Karen Bradley James Brokenshire Alun Cairns Greg Clark Geoffrey Cox Leo Docherty Liam Fox David Gauke Michael Gove Chris Grayling Philip Hammond Matt Hancock Damian Hinds Jeremy Hunt Sajid Javid Eleanor Laing Andrea Leadsom Brandon Lewis David Lidington Theresa May Penny Mordaunt David Mundell Caroline Nokes Claire Perry Amber Rudd Julian Smith Liz Truss Gavin Williamson Jeremy Wright
Fox, Leadsom, Mordaunt, Truss, Barclay, who else?
Leadsom, Hunt, "THE SAJ"
Well there's only one Leadsom (thankfully) and I included her.
Hunt and Javid - no; they may have played to the crowd a bit but no sign that when push comes to shove they'd support No Deal imho.
The Telegraph reckons 13 no-dealers in the Cabinet and 10 customs union supporters (4 undecided).
I think that's wishful thinking on the Telegraph's part:
Which of these are No Dealers?:
Steve Barclay Karen Bradley James Brokenshire Alun Cairns Greg Clark Geoffrey Cox Leo Docherty Liam Fox David Gauke Michael Gove Chris Grayling Philip Hammond Matt Hancock Damian Hinds Jeremy Hunt Sajid Javid Eleanor Laing Andrea Leadsom Brandon Lewis David Lidington Theresa May Penny Mordaunt David Mundell Caroline Nokes Claire Perry Amber Rudd Julian Smith Liz Truss Gavin Williamson Jeremy Wright
Fox, Leadsom, Mordaunt, Truss, Barclay, who else?
Leadsom, Hunt, "THE SAJ"
... Hunt and Javid - no; they may have played to the crowd a bit but no sign that when push comes to shove they'd support No Deal imho.
They are both allegedly signatories to the letter.
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
The Tories are in real trouble over Brexit. The people I have talked to over the last few days who usually support the Tories are starting to get really angry that Brexit is going ahead despite the likely implications of a No Deal Brexit. May has to act in the national interest and revoke article 50. If she sides with the hard Brexit crowd it is not unfeasible that the Tories could suffer a Canadian 1990s style Wipeout.
Actually the reverse, Deltapoll today had Tory voters backing No Deal 57% to 36%, Tory voters rejected EUref2 61% to 29% and revoke 59% to 31% so the only way the Tories suffer a 1990s style Wipeout is by backing EUref2 or revoke as they would then likely be overtaken by Farage's new Brexit Party or UKIP much as the Progressive Tories in Canada were overtaken by the more rightwing Reform Party in 1993. The only other option on Brexit Tories supported was May's Deal plus CU 42% to 27% although that still got less Tory support than No Deal
Indeed in Epping canvassing at the weekend I found on balance more voters complaining that we were still in the EU when we due to Leave last Friday than wanted to stop Brexit completely.
The Telegraph reckons 13 no-dealers in the Cabinet and 10 customs union supporters (4 undecided).
I think that's wishful thinking on the Telegraph's part:
Which of these are No Dealers?:
Steve Barclay Karen Bradley James Brokenshire Alun Cairns Greg Clark Geoffrey Cox Leo Docherty Liam Fox David Gauke Michael Gove Chris Grayling Philip Hammond Matt Hancock Damian Hinds Jeremy Hunt Sajid Javid Eleanor Laing Andrea Leadsom Brandon Lewis David Lidington Theresa May Penny Mordaunt David Mundell Caroline Nokes Claire Perry Amber Rudd Julian Smith Liz Truss Gavin Williamson Jeremy Wright
Fox, Leadsom, Mordaunt, Truss, Barclay, who else?
Leadsom, Hunt, "THE SAJ"
... Hunt and Javid - no; they may have played to the crowd a bit but no sign that when push comes to shove they'd support No Deal imho.
They are both allegedly signatories to the letter.
I find it surprising the letter's not been leaked tbh.
So, Gauke is pushing the (IMHO minority) view that May will be forced to accept a customs union if somehow it goes support this week (I’m doubtful myself).
Maybe but Gauke may not be wrong, sadly. There is one report in today’s papers that if May’s deal doesn’t pass, she’ll go for a soft Brexit which will satisfy absolutely no one
It will satisfy many and possibly the majority in the HOC
I do not agree with it but I accept the reality
I’d rather see the manifesto on which the Tories were elected honoured.
Sometimes manifestoes cannot be honoured, sometimes u-turns are justified and/or necessary
Most of the outcomes now are not what many people will have wanted. Well, half the country wasn't going to get what it wanted anyway (although they might, if we remain), and neither will many others.
Something this big?
Rawnesley's characteristically sharp piece in the Observer today cited exactly that feature as one of the reasons why May is likely to go down as one of the worst PM's in the last hundred years.
Asquith?
It is way to early to judge either Cameron or May.
Indeed - many months and even years need to pass to assess their success or failure
John Major is seen as being better now than he was in the 1990s but he never did anything to screw up the long term ability of the economy to grow. I liked John Major, I remember seeing him in Westminster a few months after the 1997 Tory wipe out. People were enthusiastic toward him despite the Tories brand being as popular as the black death in those times I felt people were boyed by the experience of seeing an ex PM!
I think the current PM has a fundamental flaw in that she has made some very poor decisions and is clearly utterly clueless. The DUP are never going to vote for her deal as it weakens the union. DUP are not interested in economics, they are principally only interested in saving the political union of UK and NI. If that means more poverty then so be it in their eyes. A bit like the Brexit fundamentalists who don't seem to care that tracts of the economy might close down.
The Telegraph reckons 13 no-dealers in the Cabinet and 10 customs union supporters (4 undecided).
I think that's wishful thinking on the Telegraph's part:
Which of these are No Dealers?:
Steve Barclay Karen Bradley James Brokenshire Alun Cairns Greg Clark Geoffrey Cox Leo Docherty Liam Fox David Gauke Michael Gove Chris Grayling Philip Hammond Matt Hancock Damian Hinds Jeremy Hunt Sajid Javid Eleanor Laing Andrea Leadsom Brandon Lewis David Lidington Theresa May Penny Mordaunt David Mundell Caroline Nokes Claire Perry Amber Rudd Julian Smith Liz Truss Gavin Williamson Jeremy Wright
Fox, Leadsom, Mordaunt, Truss, Barclay, who else?
Leadsom, Hunt, "THE SAJ"
... Hunt and Javid - no; they may have played to the crowd a bit but no sign that when push comes to shove they'd support No Deal imho.
They are both allegedly signatories to the letter.
Yes Hunt and Javid are both born again Leavers . Anyone with leadership ambitions has to prove themselves to the lunatic membership .
Hunt might be planning a bait and switch on No Dealers if he comes into power, but he's definitely in the hardline camp on Europe right now in the cabinet I think.
Perhaps this is the week the Tory Party will finally break. A division that has been predicted for much of my adult lifetime.
The Tories didn’t quite split over tariff reform, albeit they did suffer defections.
The party will not split over no deal, but it will lose 10-20 MPs. On balance I think embracing the customs union makes a split more likely, so May won’t do it.
Hunt might be planning a bait and switch on No Dealers if he comes into power, but he's definitely in the hardline camp on Europe right now in the cabinet I think.
God, him and Sajid Javid are such idiots.
Atleast the likes of Leadsom and Davis genuinely believe the nonsense they come out with.
Which government ministers will be resigning if May is forced to adopt a Customs Union?
Ben - I have given up caring
Hold fast there Big_G - it can't go on for too much longer, it really can't*.
(*He says, more in hope than expectation.)
12th April is high noon and no deal beckons
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
Well maybe a few more Labour MPs will back a WA they have no real objection to and....sorry, couldn't finish that one with a straight face.
Ultimately May has found herself in a poker game with Corbyn, Barnier and Foster. And she's not very good.
May said she was a tough negotiator! lol
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
Nobody had the balls or moral fibre to do so. All of them thought they'd let her take the blame and they'd rule over the rubble. It's good for them and if it fucks us up, well, we're only the voters...
The Tories are in real trouble over Brexit. The people I have talked to over the last few days who usually support the Tories are starting to get really angry that Brexit is going ahead despite the likely implications of a No Deal Brexit. May has to act in the national interest and revoke article 50. If she sides with the hard Brexit crowd it is not unfeasible that the Tories could suffer a Canadian 1990s style Wipeout.
The Tories have become UKIP. If you were a Conservative of a couple of years ago, who opposed UKIP at the time you will be alienated by what the party has become.
The type of Tories I meet have been lifelong supporters. The support structure for the party may have changed and this maybe why none of us are likely to vote for it again. Personally, I think the Tories made a mistake to ditch middle of the road Tories for fair weather Brexit supporters. I think I will support Change/ Independent group and failing that Lib Dems until Labour is taken back by the moderates.
Comments
The no dealers either seem to think everything will turn out okay or are so idealogically obsessed with Brexit they don’t care what happens .
I have serious problems with no dealers as opposed to Leavers who want an orderly exit . To be blunt I utterly despise those pushing for no deal , they are a disgrace to the country and are acting against the national interest.
"Pause Lady if you may while I recount,
What obstacles you must surmount."
The polls have turned against leave. There have been a million people waving EU flags on the streets of London. A petition calling for article 50 to be revoked has pulled in over 6 million votes. The Conservative Party is in turmoil with even pro-leave cabinet ministers being threatened with deselection. The whips writ barely runs in the whips office itself. Brexit has already been cancelled once, and there is no clear plan for how to get it back on course. To do so may be impossible.
May can't deliver on her manifesto. No other potential leader can deliver the manifesto. Gandalf the fucking wizard couldn't deliver it.
However, in any vonc I expect they would support the government
Credit where it's due, the DUP have been principled throughout (whether you agree with those principles or not). Unlike at least half of the Tory MPs who rejected May's Deal as vassalage, and still think it is, but voted for it for tactical reasons.
https://twitter.com/4rj1n/status/1112454535572844545
They don’t support the WA but then who can blame them. The manifesto said zilch about a backstop.
Indeed the one UK wide party that supported reversing the referendum result actually managed to lose votes compared to the previous election.
Football wasn't safe in general or welcoming for non whites in the 80s so I wasn't allowed to go to football matches.
There weren't many games on telly and Liverpool were the only side that appeared a lot so they became my team. Plus my father liked them, so one of my earliest Christmas presents was a Liverpool shirt.
Plus in my lifetime Liverpool hasn't been in Lancashire.
Mind you neither has Manchester.
The mps have to take a plausable way to stop it and there are few options due to legal constraints
Why thy do not pass the WDA is beyond me, but ERG are beyond redemption in my party and for me
https://twitter.com/SonOfAlashia/status/1112453480885694471
Labour MPs are either cynical or stupid. Maybe both. Whatever happens we need to pass the WA and the government just offered it with no strings attached and Labour still voted it down. They are more idiotic than the Tories who voted against it.
Looks like a CHP win (just)
https://twitter.com/caferaydin/status/1112456151688536065
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/8755181/tory-mps-revolt-demanding-theresa-may-rejects-long-brexit/amp/
Andrew Bridgen has confirmed to LBC that he signed it, in unsurprising news.
People can say Labour's positions on rejecting May's deal / delaying Brexit are wrong, or contradictory, or that the "six tests" were impossible to meet, or whatever - but they can't say that Labour's voters in 2017 didn't give them a mandate for those positions.
The only case where Labour's arguably been in breach of their 2017 manifesto in relation to Brexit was in voting for a second referendum last week (the manifesto itself didn't rule that out, but Corbyn did say a few times in interviews during the election campaign that he opposed one).
https://twitter.com/TurkishMinuteTM/status/1112455840634687491
I will await the morning to see the final result
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1112418694515306504
I cannot understand how someone so inadequate and completely out of their depth has survived as long as she has. She is really very bad. Embarrassingly bad!
ENGLAND: 266 MPs for, 256 MPs against (51%-49%)
SCOTLAND: 13 for, 45 against (22%-78%)
WALES: 6 for, 33 against (15%-85%)
NORTHERN IRELAND: 1 for, 10 against (9%-91%)
https://wingsoverscotland.com/independence-for-england-now/
Obviously the extent of the current divide and assessment of harm is somewhat exceptional, but nation's make choices others within and without it think are harmful all the time.
Just go Customs Union I say. There's probably numbers for it in Parliament and it leaves only the option of a VONC in the government to prevent it. Trying to foster a no deal by default seems far more fraught.
She’ll resign and pass the decision on to someone else .
Which of these are No Dealers?:
Steve Barclay
Karen Bradley
James Brokenshire
Alun Cairns
Greg Clark
Geoffrey Cox
Leo Docherty
Liam Fox
David Gauke
Michael Gove
Chris Grayling
Philip Hammond
Matt Hancock
Damian Hinds
Jeremy Hunt
Sajid Javid
Eleanor Laing
Andrea Leadsom
Brandon Lewis
David Lidington
Theresa May
Penny Mordaunt
David Mundell
Caroline Nokes
Claire Perry
Amber Rudd
Julian Smith
Liz Truss
Gavin Williamson
Jeremy Wright
Fox, Leadsom, Mordaunt, Truss, Barclay, who else?
I mix with centrists, one nation types. The Tories cannot win an election without us centrist/ one nation types just as they cannot without you!
Hunt and Javid - no; they may have played to the crowd a bit but no sign that when push comes to shove they'd support No Deal imho.
http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/polls/brexit-conservatives
Indeed in Epping canvassing at the weekend I found on balance more voters complaining that we were still in the EU when we due to Leave last Friday than wanted to stop Brexit completely.
The party will not split over no deal, but it will lose 10-20 MPs. On balance I think embracing the customs union makes a split more likely, so May won’t do it.
Atleast the likes of Leadsom and Davis genuinely believe the nonsense they come out with.
The type of Tories I meet have been lifelong supporters. The support structure for the party may have changed and this maybe why none of us are likely to vote for it again. Personally, I think the Tories made a mistake to ditch middle of the road Tories for fair weather Brexit supporters. I think I will support Change/ Independent group and failing that Lib Dems until Labour is taken back by the moderates.