The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
People who hold a European identity will never be reconciled. Just as Irish Nationalists will never be reconciled with partition, Scottish Nationalists never reconciled with the Union. The ideal that leaving will make the passions go away is misguided and patronising. As someone said below, Brexit has launched an actively pro-EU sentiment in this country that will not go away and Brexiteers are going to have to come up with some way of ameliorating it a la devolution or the Good Friday Agreement.
You may take comfort from what you perceive to be a more active interest in the EU as a cause, others will see recent activity as very much in line with current trends in identity politics, the grievance culture, etc.. Once we've left, I highly doubt going back in will be more than a niche interest. I don't actually agree with your comments about Scottish nationalists (I live in Scotland), but to try and claim that wanting to be part of the political machinery of the EU is an issue of the same order seems deluded to me.
If we have a hard Brexit and keep being a democracy, effectively remain swaps places with UKIP.
I’m very surprised by the 41% for revoke but shows IMO that as some irresponsible MPs have pushed no deal this has polarized the Remain vote .
I think you're reading too much into that poll. Answering that you would support revocation doesn't mean you're a Remainer who supports doing it without a referendum. It doesn't even mean you're a Remainer. There have been several articles from Brexiteers saying we should revoke.
Revoke now has one feature that no other option does. It stops the clock. It gets the ball back in our court and undoes the error of invoking Article 50 without a plan. It will appeal to anyone who doesn't positively want no deal.
Unless there's total identifiable chaos caused by Brexit, I don't envision much of a campaign to rejoin.
How soon do you think there will be a stable status quo for the United Kingdom as a political entity outside the EU?
Political? Five to ten years. Economically? As far as most people are concerned, it should be more or less overnight, subject to the WA being signed in an orderly fashion, followed by an FTA within the transition period.
I need to bugger off, but before I go - when I saw that 170 Tory MPs are advocating No Deal I just thought 'WTF???'. The Kipperite lunatics truly have taken over the Tory parliamentary party.
I had a similar reaction. Despite everything I still cannot quite believe 170+ Tory MPs are no deal suppoters now, essentially, despite protests no doubt, the same as any Baker or Francois. I was at least tentatively hopeful of the upcoming votes coming up with a softish compromise that enough Tories would back, but with more than half the parliamentary party now in the full on crash out Brexit mode, the government will collapse first.
Are they people who want No Deal, or who can accept No Deal?
Both sides have tacked to the hard extremes - revoke and No Deal - and Parliament is responding to this.
Revoke and then re trigger Article 50 would be an act of bad faith and I wouldn’t support it .
Further revoke would cause huge problems socially . A long extension for another EU vote I would support .
I’m very surprised by the 41% for revoke but shows IMO that as some irresponsible MPs have pushed no deal this has polarized the Remain vote .
You've got the reason it is happening spot on. But that doesn't alter the fact that it is now the most popular option. I have a feeling it is growing in support. It's not an obvious that a sudden outbreak of moderation on the leave side would change the situation.
In practice, I think that people who are polled who favour Revoke would correspond almost 100% with those who favour a second Referendum.
‘New Party A’ would emphasise community and society, be happy with current or higher levels of immigration, want more action to tackle climate change, support aid to poorer countries, promote rehabilitation in the criminal justice system, strongly support rights for same-sex couples and favour international co-operation, including the closest possible links with the EU after Brexit. ‘New Party , including nearly a third of 2017 Labour voters and nearly half of Lib Dems. But they were pipped at the post by the much more conservative ‘New Party B’, with 27%, including more than four in ten 2017 Tories and nearly half of Leave voters.
Hardly decisive, especially with barely half the electorate between them. Where are the other options?
The current parties.
Ok. Making some deductions from the article that would produce something like:
New social conservatives: 27% New social liberal 24% Labour around 22% Conservative around 20% LibDem around 4% Others 3%
Under our current voting system that would be a very messy election, impossible to predict.
For fun, I had a go on electoral calculus using the following shares:
New social conservatives (UKIP): 27% New social liberal (LD) 24%+4% Labour around 22% Conservative around 20%
Result was: New social conservatives (UKIP): 98 New social liberal (LD) 121 Labour around 22% 241! Conservative around 20% 115
Lab 85 short of overall majority Coalition government Lab +LD 241+121
The SDP would be the new Social Conservatives there I think, not UKIP
Yes - but similar social and economic values to UKIP so I have taken the basic UKIP vote as an indicator of the appeal of the new social conservatives in each constituency.
Straight swing doesn't really work with big swings in vote, particularly for smaller parties, as we saw in 2015 with the LibDems losing 15% from 23% to 8%; quite obviously this wasn't going to be the same swing in every seat. Conversely if the LibDems ever put on 15% they're not suddenly going to gain 15% of the vote in every seat, but bounce back more strongly in their previously better areas.
I need to bugger off, but before I go - when I saw that 170 Tory MPs are advocating No Deal I just thought 'WTF???'. The Kipperite lunatics truly have taken over the Tory parliamentary party.
Hardly decisive, especially with barely half the electorate between them. Where are the other options?
The current parties.
Ok. Making some deductions from the article that would produce something like:
New social conservatives: 27% New social liberal 24% Labour around 22% Conservative around 20% LibDem around 4% Others 3%
Under our current voting system that would be a very messy election, impossible to predict.
For fun, I had a go on electoral calculus using the following shares:
New social conservatives (UKIP): 27% New social liberal (LD) 24%+4% Labour around 22% Conservative around 20%
Result was: New social conservatives (UKIP): 98 New social liberal (LD) 121 Labour around 22% 241! Conservative around 20% 115
Lab 85 short of overall majority Coalition government Lab +LD 241+121
The SDP would be the new Social Conservatives there I think, not UKIP
Labour is amazingly resilient in terms of seat numbers at low vote share. Far more than the Tories.
The Tories should have supported PR over the years like Hannan does. Their vote is too evenly spread to survive a meltdown/major realignment. Another ghastly thought is that under FPTP the likes of Fysh, Francois, Bone, Chope, Bridgen, Paterson and Wiggin will almost certainly survive the apocalypse.
‘New Party A’ would emphasise community and society, be happy with current or higher levels of immigration, want more action to tackle climate change, support aid to poorer countries, promote rehabilitation in the criminal justice system, strongly support rights for same-sex couples and favour international co-operation, including the closest possible links with the EU after Brexit. ‘New Party , including nearly a third of 2017 Labour voters and nearly half of Lib Dems. But they were pipped at the post by the much more conservative ‘New Party B’, with 27%, including more than four in ten 2017 Tories and nearly half of Leave voters.
Hardly decisive, especially with barely half the electorate between them. Where are the other options?
The current parties.
Ok. Making some deductions from the article that would produce something like:
New social conservatives: 27% New social liberal 24% Labour around 22% Conservative around 20% LibDem around 4% Others 3%
Under our current voting system that would be a very messy election, impossible to predict.
For fun, I had a go on electoral calculus using the following shares:
New social conservatives (UKIP): 27% New social liberal (LD) 24%+4% Labour around 22% Conservative around 20%
Result was: New social conservatives (UKIP): 98 New social liberal (LD) 121 Labour around 22% 241! Conservative around 20% 115
Lab 85 short of overall majority Coalition government Lab +LD 241+121
The SDP would be the new Social Conservatives there I think, not UKIP
Yes - but similar social and economic values to UKIP so I have taken the basic UKIP vote as an indicator of the appeal of the new social conservatives in each constituency.
Straight swing doesn't really work with big swings in vote, particularly for smaller parties, as we saw in 2015 with the LibDems losing 15% from 23% to 8%; quite obviously this wasn't going to be the same swing in every seat. Conversely if the LibDems ever put on 15% they're not suddenly going to gain 15% of the vote in every seat, but bounce back more strongly in their previously better areas.
The biggest ever fail of democratic representation that dare not speak its name doesn't get a mention yet again! #prayforthe13%
I've just had a thought. This would have been booked months ago as a publicity stunt following our withdrawl from the EU. So it doesn't look like leading Brexiters were planning to be conciliatory towards the large number of people who disagreed with them.
Pretty sure it'll be the EU flag with one star missing which is what passes for biting agitprop in Leaverdom.
The flag has had twelve stars since the days when it only had six members, the number having been chosen to represent the French idea of numerical perfection. Cutting a star out doesn't really make sense.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
But the short term problem is a problem. None of the other solutions are any better.
Pretty sure it'll be the EU flag with one star missing which is what passes for biting agitprop in Leaverdom.
The flag has had twelve stars since the days when it only had six members, the number having been chosen to represent the French idea of numerical perfection. Cutting a star out doesn't really make sense.
Unless you don't subscribe to French notions of perfection.
I've just had a thought. This would have been booked months ago as a publicity stunt following our withdrawl from the EU. So it doesn't look like leading Brexiters were planning to be conciliatory towards the large number of people who disagreed with them.
A lot of them have been campaigning their whole lives for exit; even I wouldn't deny their right to a moment of celebration. Even though it will surely prove phyrric.
Minting a coin on something so divisive and potentially damaging is however a mistake.
Perhaps if they had won the train would have been going forwards?
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
I do not want the country's future to be dictated by threats from the far right.
It looks like we're heading back to the 2005-15 period where support for the big two is in the mid-60s % range, but this time, the other third are split between multiple parties.
Pretty sure it'll be the EU flag with one star missing which is what passes for biting agitprop in Leaverdom.
The flag has had twelve stars since the days when it only had six members, the number having been chosen to represent the French idea of numerical perfection. Cutting a star out doesn't really make sense.
It will be far more than a niche interest but a pressing, urgent, cause. If the EU were just “political machinery” you may have been right but many feel that not being in the EU disconnects us in a vital way from a European polity of which we are a part. We will feel politically disconnected in the same way an Irish Nationalist from Belfast feels disconnected from his compatriots in the south. The fact that you underestimate that strength of feeling is worrying. This is a chasm in British society that we will not recover from just by leaving, in fact the economic harm will exacerbate it, and spouting some psychobabble about “healing”, which is the new “get over it” it seems, won’t change that.
I'm doubtful of the scale of it but its existence is undeniable. Ardent pro EU sentiment, like its anti opposite, is primarily a matter of feelings and identity. Neither come from a detached and dessicated analysis of material pros and cons. It is rare for this to be admitted because people like to present themselves as extremely rational, their head governing their heart, and it helps to do this if they manage to believe it themselves.
Gosh I'm coming over as very wise and worldly with that, I must say.
It will be far more than a niche interest but a pressing, urgent, cause. If the EU were just “political machinery” you may have been right but many feel that not being in the EU disconnects us in a vital way from a European polity of which we are a part. We will feel politically disconnected in the same way an Irish Nationalist from Belfast feels disconnected from his compatriots in the south. The fact that you underestimate that strength of feeling is worrying. This is a chasm in British society that we will not recover from just by leaving, in fact the economic harm will exacerbate it, and spouting some psychobabble about “healing”, which is the new “get over it” it seems, won’t change that.
I'm doubtful of the scale of it but its existence is undeniable. Ardent pro EU sentiment, like its anti opposite, is primarily a matter of feelings and identity. Neither come from a detached and dessicated analysis of material pros and cons. It is rare for this to be admitted because people like to present themselves as extremely rational, their head governing their heart, and it helps to do this if they manage to believe it themselves.
Gosh I'm coming over as very wise and worldly with that, I must say.
I'd say that it's much as a Conservative must have felt in 1946. A feeling that the natural order of things has been overturned.
Pretty sure it'll be the EU flag with one star missing which is what passes for biting agitprop in Leaverdom.
The flag has had twelve stars since the days when it only had six members, the number having been chosen to represent the French idea of numerical perfection. Cutting a star out doesn't really make sense.
Unless you don't subscribe to French notions of perfection.
The notion of 12 symbolising perfection considerably predates the French state. 12 olympians, labours, apostles, etc.
It will be far more than a niche interest but a pressing, urgent, cause. If the EU were just “political machinery” you may have been right but many feel that not being in the EU disconnects us in a vital way from a European polity of which we are a part. We will feel politically disconnected in the same way an Irish Nationalist from Belfast feels disconnected from his compatriots in the south. The fact that you underestimate that strength of feeling is worrying. This is a chasm in British society that we will not recover from just by leaving, in fact the economic harm will exacerbate it, and spouting some psychobabble about “healing”, which is the new “get over it” it seems, won’t change that.
I'm doubtful of the scale of it but its existence is undeniable. Ardent pro EU sentiment, like its anti opposite, is primarily a matter of feelings and identity. Neither come from a detached and dessicated analysis of material pros and cons. It is rare for this to be admitted because people like to present themselves as extremely rational, their head governing their heart, and it helps to do this if they manage to believe it themselves.
Gosh I'm coming over as very wise and worldly with that, I must say.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
But the short term problem is a problem. None of the other solutions are any better.
The deal and a long extension are still plausible options and better than no deal, in my view.
Pretty sure it'll be the EU flag with one star missing which is what passes for biting agitprop in Leaverdom.
The flag has had twelve stars since the days when it only had six members, the number having been chosen to represent the French idea of numerical perfection. Cutting a star out doesn't really make sense.
Unless you don't subscribe to French notions of perfection.
The notion of 12 symbolising perfection considerably predates the French state. 12 olympians, labours, apostles, etc.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
I am coming round to:
1. Revoke. Gets us off the crazy conveyor belt those agitating for A50 , before we were ready, put us on. Certainty for business. Chance to return to what should be the real political priorities. 2. Quickly finalise what is the consensus Brexit. Probably somewhere close to Clarke. 3. Referendum between consensus Brexit or staying as we are. 4. In the event Brexit wins, the new A50 period replaces what would have been the transition period under May's WA. After two years we move to the new terms.
It will be far more than a niche interest but a pressing, urgent, cause. If the EU were just “political machinery” you may have been right but many feel that not being in the EU disconnects us in a vital way from a European polity of which we are a part. We will feel politically disconnected in the same way an Irish Nationalist from Belfast feels disconnected from his compatriots in the south. The fact that you underestimate that strength of feeling is worrying. This is a chasm in British society that we will not recover from just by leaving, in fact the economic harm will exacerbate it, and spouting some psychobabble about “healing”, which is the new “get over it” it seems, won’t change that.
I'm doubtful of the scale of it but its existence is undeniable. Ardent pro EU sentiment, like its anti opposite, is primarily a matter of feelings and identity. Neither come from a detached and dessicated analysis of material pros and cons. It is rare for this to be admitted because people like to present themselves as extremely rational, their head governing their heart, and it helps to do this if they manage to believe it themselves.
Gosh I'm coming over as very wise and worldly with that, I must say.
I'd say that it's much as a Conservative must have felt in 1946. A feeling that the natural order of things has been overturned.
If only the Conservatives had stuck to being conservative, then.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
I do not want the country's future to be dictated by threats from the far right.
But what incentive have the far right got to work within democracy, if the result isn't honoured? There is a lot of support for no deal. It seems to me that the threat from the far right is greater if we revoke.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
But the short term problem is a problem. None of the other solutions are any better.
The deal and a long extension are still plausible options and better than no deal, in my view.
How many times does the deal need to get pummelled or do you believe in fairies as well.
Revoke and then re trigger Article 50 would be an act of bad faith and I wouldn’t support it .
Further revoke would cause huge problems socially . A long extension for another EU vote I would support .
I’m very surprised by the 41% for revoke but shows IMO that as some irresponsible MPs have pushed no deal this has polarized the Remain vote .
You've got the reason it is happening spot on. But that doesn't alter the fact that it is now the most popular option. I have a feeling it is growing in support. It's not an obvious that a sudden outbreak of moderation on the leave side would change the situation.
Thanks . The no deal fantasists have only themselves to blame. Not content with us leaving they now want to rub Remainer noses in it by a complete rupture with the EU .
Whilst 70000 Britannia may have seemed like an appropriate locomotive for , The Brexit Express, I think 70013 Oliver Cromwell would be better for the sequel.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
But the short term problem is a problem. None of the other solutions are any better.
The deal and a long extension are still plausible options and better than no deal, in my view.
How many times does the deal need to get pummelled or do you believe in fairies as well.
the fact that it might not pass doesn't make it a bad option.
Hardly decisive, especially with barely half the electorate between them. Where are the other options?
The current parties.
Coalition government Lab +LD 241+121
The SDP would be the new Social Conservatives there I think, not UKIP
Yes - but similar social and economic values to UKIP so I have taken the basic UKIP vote as an indicator of the appeal of the new social conservatives in each constituency.
Straight swing doesn't really work with big swings in vote, particularly for smaller parties, as we saw in 2015 with the LibDems losing 15% from 23% to 8%; quite obviously this wasn't going to be the same swing in every seat. Conversely if the LibDems ever put on 15% they're not suddenly going to gain 15% of the vote in every seat, but bounce back more strongly in their previously better areas.
The biggest ever fail of democratic representation that dare not speak its name doesn't get a mention yet again! #prayforthe13%
Even as anoraks we cling to UNS because of its simplicity and the absence of any better model (surely there is a PHD project here for someone?). But UNS was designed for the two-party era where there was an unpopular government and a popular opposition, and it was noticed that the government lost proportionally more support in its weak areas than in its strong areas.
The only two rationales for this phenomenon that I have ever seen are the social interaction one - that government supporters n its strong areas are surrounded by friendly voices whereas in its weak areas the pub and corner shop are full of people moaning aboout the government, hence encouraging its supporters to switch, and the vested interest one - that the government in power has favoured through its policies the interests of its stronger areas (urban v rural, north v south, etc) and therefore holds onto more support in these than in the unfavoured areas.
It is hard to see how this model has that much relevance to the current state of politics? And certainly nothing to do with the change in support for any third party.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
But the short term problem is a problem. None of the other solutions are any better.
The deal and a long extension are still plausible options and better than no deal, in my view.
How many times does the deal need to get pummelled or do you believe in fairies as well.
the fact that it might not pass doesn't make it a bad option.
The more that MPs spend time going through the options, the more May's Shit Deal risies to the surface as the least worst....
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
I am coming round to:
1. Revoke. Gets us off the crazy conveyor belt those agitating for A50 , before we were ready, put us on. Certainty for business. Chance to return to what should be the real political priorities. 2. Quickly finalise what is the consensus Brexit. Probably somewhere close to Clarke. 3. Referendum between consensus Brexit or staying as we are. 4. In the event Brexit wins, the new A50 period replaces what would have been the transition period under May's WA. After two years we move to the new terms.
Sounds good, but we live in a democracy and it isn't politically possible.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
But the short term problem is a problem. None of the other solutions are any better.
The deal and a long extension are still plausible options and better than no deal, in my view.
How many times does the deal need to get pummelled or do you believe in fairies as well.
the fact that it might not pass doesn't make it a bad option.
everyone knows it is not just bad but the absolutely crappiest option.
<<I think a Labour-Lib Dem coalition is very likely at some point between now and the next couple of years, however unlikely that may still seem at the moment.>>
<<If labour are like 3 short, sure. If not they might as well ask the Greens>>
I think there's also a broader issue of reviving LD support in the southwest, and a ceiling on Corbyn seats. Unlikely as it may seem now, you may at some time see a kind of moderated Corbynism in alliance with both the Lib Dems and SNP.
Do you mean that LD support in the SW is reviving?
Yes.
In much of the SW Labour has replaced the LDs as main anti-Tory option on basis of 2017 results.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
But the short term problem is a problem. None of the other solutions are any better.
The deal and a long extension are still plausible options and better than no deal, in my view.
How many times does the deal need to get pummelled or do you believe in fairies as well.
the fact that it might not pass doesn't make it a bad option.
The more that MPs spend time going through the options, the more May's Shit Deal risies to the surface as the least worst....
I don't think so, only for saving Tory skins not the country.
<<I think a Labour-Lib Dem coalition is very likely at some point between now and the next couple of years, however unlikely that may still seem at the moment.>>
<<If labour are like 3 short, sure. If not they might as well ask the Greens>>
I think there's also a broader issue of reviving LD support in the southwest, and a ceiling on Corbyn seats. Unlikely as it may seem now, you may at some time see a kind of moderated Corbynism in alliance with both the Lib Dems and SNP.
Do you mean that LD support in the SW is reviving?
Yes.
In much of the SW Labour has replaced the LDs as main anti-Tory option on basis of 2017 results.
<<I think a Labour-Lib Dem coalition is very likely at some point between now and the next couple of years, however unlikely that may still seem at the moment.>>
<<If labour are like 3 short, sure. If not they might as well ask the Greens>>
I think there's also a broader issue of reviving LD support in the southwest, and a ceiling on Corbyn seats. Unlikely as it may seem now, you may at some time see a kind of moderated Corbynism in alliance with both the Lib Dems and SNP.
Do you mean that LD support in the SW is reviving?
Yes.
In much of the SW Labour has replaced the LDs as main anti-Tory option on basis of 2017 results.
Amazing to think they came 6th behind Mebyon Kernow in the euros before last in Cornwall
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
But the short term problem is a problem. None of the other solutions are any better.
The deal and a long extension are still plausible options and better than no deal, in my view.
How many times does the deal need to get pummelled or do you believe in fairies as well.
the fact that it might not pass doesn't make it a bad option.
The more that MPs spend time going through the options, the more May's Shit Deal risies to the surface as the least worst....
The only way May’s deal is going to pass is if the EU agree to move the backstop from the WA to the political declaration. I saw one newspaper report saying that was an idea favoured by Merkel but I doubt it has substance. Frankly WA plus the political declaration as it stands is virtually the same as the Norway deal. That doesn’t have a lot going for it in my view. I think it’s a binary choice between no deal or no Brexit myself.
Opinion, fieldwork Thursday-Friday, finds the two main parties neck and neck on 35% and barely any change in Party support at all, barring a slight uptick for the LibDems. Completely different picture from Deltapoll.
I'd say that it's much as a Conservative must have felt in 1946. A feeling that the natural order of things has been overturned.
There is that but I'm more thinking of the 'ordinary people' who feel very passionately pro and anti EU.
Unless Brexit is coupled with a radical move left or right in our domestic politics, and assuming that we do manage to leave in an orderly fashion, the odds are that its practical impact on the life of such people will not be anywhere near large enough to adequately explain the passion.
Nevertheless it will still be felt and it will be real. Post Brexit the ardent Brexiteer / Remainer will go to Aldi / Waitrose as normal, they will buy their scratch cards / humous dip just as before, but they will feel liberated / diminished as they do so.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
As someone who campaigned and voted for Remain I am not in favour of revoke. We have to see this through to its conclusion, even if it is no deal. In the long term, revoke would polarise politics even more, and embolden the far right. not a good move, even if it seems to solve short term problems.
I do not want the country's future to be dictated by threats from the far right.
But what incentive have the far right got to work within democracy, if the result isn't honoured? There is a lot of support for no deal. It seems to me that the threat from the far right is greater if we revoke.
If they want to work outside democracy, that is something for the police to sort out.
And it is ridiculous “Parliament” criticising May for not following an “alternative” course when they won’t even give her an alternative course to reject to follow.
Nail. Head.
Not at all. It has been evident for some time - and will hopefully become clear tomorrow - that there is a majority in Parliament for a softer route to Brexit. May's delay and obfuscation have since the beginning been intended to thwart this majority from expressing itself.
It will be interesting to watch what the DUP does now the English nationalist Tory loons have abandoned them.
Whether its principle or stubborn politicking, we would all be better off if no one had to deal with the DUP.
The DUP has been honest and principled from the start. Tories should not blame the DUP for their own government's failures. Of course, the problem with the DUP is that there is no nuance, no flexibility and no compromise. How does that differ from our own dear Prime Minister with her red lines?
As we wait for today's drama I hope there is still time for April Fools' stories in the papers. However, there is no escape from Brexit in this one.
According to the Express the UK will be kicked out of the Eurovision song contest if we leave with no deal. This is according to the Paris based L’Institute de Eurovision Song (or LIES for short).
The requirement to be an EU member might of course be a shock to this year's hosts and last year's winners - Israel!
Comments
Baker is a secret fan.
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1112300203023970304
Minting a coin on something so divisive and potentially damaging is however a mistake.
Perhaps if they had won the train would have been going forwards?
Gosh I'm coming over as very wise and worldly with that, I must say.
1. Revoke. Gets us off the crazy conveyor belt those agitating for A50 , before we were ready, put us on. Certainty for business. Chance to return to what should be the real political priorities.
2. Quickly finalise what is the consensus Brexit. Probably somewhere close to Clarke.
3. Referendum between consensus Brexit or staying as we are.
4. In the event Brexit wins, the new A50 period replaces what would have been the transition period under May's WA. After two years we move to the new terms.
The only two rationales for this phenomenon that I have ever seen are the social interaction one - that government supporters n its strong areas are surrounded by friendly voices whereas in its weak areas the pub and corner shop are full of people moaning aboout the government, hence encouraging its supporters to switch, and the vested interest one - that the government in power has favoured through its policies the interests of its stronger areas (urban v rural, north v south, etc) and therefore holds onto more support in these than in the unfavoured areas.
It is hard to see how this model has that much relevance to the current state of politics? And certainly nothing to do with the change in support for any third party.
Well I'll take that obviously.
NEW THREAD
That must an April Fool’s day story. No matter who wins he won’t make the Cabinet.
Unless Brexit is coupled with a radical move left or right in our domestic politics, and assuming that we do manage to leave in an orderly fashion, the odds are that its practical impact on the life of such people will not be anywhere near large enough to adequately explain the passion.
Nevertheless it will still be felt and it will be real. Post Brexit the ardent Brexiteer / Remainer will go to Aldi / Waitrose as normal, they will buy their scratch cards / humous dip just as before, but they will feel liberated / diminished as they do so.
Going to disappear up a Turkey's arse once I've disappeared up my own.
According to the Express the UK will be kicked out of the Eurovision song contest if we leave with no deal. This is according to the Paris based L’Institute de Eurovision Song (or LIES for short).
The requirement to be an EU member might of course be a shock to this year's hosts and last year's winners - Israel!
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1107899/Eurovision-song-contest-uk-leaving-brexit-latest-news-eurovision