<<I think a Labour-Lib Dem coalition is very likely at some point between now and the next couple of years, however unlikely that may still seem at the moment.>>
<<If labour are like 3 short, sure. If not they might as well ask the Greens>>
I think there's also a broader issue of reviving LD support in the southwest, and a ceiling on Corbyn seats. Unlikely as it may seem now, you may at some time see a kind of moderated Corbynism in alliance with both the Lib Dems and SNP.
Do you mean that LD support in the SW is reviving?
Yes.
Good; by-election results across the rest of the country are generally encouraging, too. Newport's this week as well!
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
Yes. The flags of the EU being proudly raised high in all directions away from Parliament Square as people dispersed last week was an interesting surprise to me.
Sopping wet millenials are very I'm European. Let's hope generation Z rebel against the horrific meekness
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
Petition rate picking up now after it hit 6 million
Six million emails.
Personally I've got half a dozen emails I use regularly, and can create hundreds more at the drop of a hat.
Would you also be able to assign those email addresses to valid postcodes in roughly the proportions that the 2016 vote broke down, and lodge them on the site at a rate consistent with what you'd expect people to be doing spontaneously? And how many other people doing the same would be needed to make much difference to the result?
That would actually be pretty straightforward, assuming you've got some organic traffic and you just want to amplify it. You don't have to know anything about the seats or times, just add votes for seats where you see votes added, and at times where you see other people voting.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
Very true. I gave it hardly a moment's thought before the referendum. Indeed, although I'd decided I was going to vote remain by the time the campaign started, as recently as the EU elections prior to it I seriously considered voting UKIP. Now I regard the EU as an important institution that I wholeheartedly support. Never thought I'd end up here - but there you go.
Thornberry knows it. I dont like to suggest insincerity but more and more on Brexit I cannot believe on a number of issues that so many people do not understand things.
Therefore it is cover for cynical positioning. Davis, Johnson and go are the same so it's not a partisan point. And May and co did it too when trying to change a WA they knew and had said could not be changed.
I agree with you, it is hard to believe that MPs don't understand the basics of Brexit, that said we should not exclude the possibility that there really are about 400 or so very thick MPs in Parliament. It sure as hell would explain a lot.
I think you underestimate at 400, much higher I think.
How many of us here have been on Constituency Panels picking candidates? Or otherwise mixed with MP's. Rarely met one who could really be described as thick. Single-minded, unable to see anything outside their party interest perhaps.
Well spineless , self seeking , no principles , sheep like , cannon fodder. Is that any better.
OK, malc, what you do in present circumstances?
I know, of course, that like me, you wouldn't have started from here!
OKC, admit it is a mess and revoke given they do not want the nuclear WTO option. Only party politics holding them back, a backbone and a choice of two options. Self interest will always take precedence with the Tories.
Agree, although I've always felt that the Tories basic instinct was 'my friends, right or wrong'.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
I can get it to pass the commons. A meaningful vote on 11th or 12th after the judgment of the summit where the forced option is pass the WA or it’s definitely a conscious no deal decoupling, that will ensure enough labour votes to pass it. It’s not even a gamble, it would certainly pass that forced choice.
Tick. If the EU are cruel to be kind and refuse an extension the WA will pass pronto. But will they do that? Or will they prefer to be kind to be cruel? I think the latter. If MPs do not pass the WA in the next few days we are going to be tormented with a long extension.
As I commented yesterday, it just needs one EU leader to say "I will approve no more extensions."
Leave-seat Labour MPs would no longer have the luxury to fanny about.....
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
LibDem majority ; back now while you can still get good odds!
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
LibDem majority ; back now while you can still get good odds!
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
LibDem majority ; back now while you can still get good odds!
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
There are probably vast numbers unreconciled to gay marriage. There were vast numbers unreconciled to decimalisation. We don't hear from these people en masse because these things actually happened, and those on the losing side got used to it or simply moved on. The Brexit process, due to politicians on both sides, has not yet allowed that healing to begin, and for Remainers it's a constant agony of their hopes being raised. After Brexit, these people can decide if they want to leave the country, or far more likely, they will get on with their lives.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
LibDem majority ; back now while you can still get good odds!
It sounds like a good trade option if you can get it with an alliance with the Tiggers to pay out. That's got to be one where the odds will shorten.
Whatever side of the argument we favour there is one thing on which I think we can all agree, it is proving hellish difficult to deliver on the wishes of the British people, as expressed in the Conclusion?
We need a solution which involves neither leaving nor not leaving the European Union and which lasts until 2022.
I suggest an induced coma.
Somebody should start a petition to get the Queen to decide the Brexit outcome.
She has more respect and is more trusted by the public than any politician.
No, the Queen should stay out of it, she remains popular as she does not take sides in political argument
Quite, If the queen gets involved it would be the beginning of the end of monarchy, politicians would act to prevent such use of 17th century powers again. There's a reason no monarch since flabby Anne has refused to sign a bill into law or used their prerogative outside the advice of the PM or in ceremonial use. As a Republican, go for it Liz.
I don't think Brenda would stick her gold plated oar in but if she did it would hasten the already inevitable end of the monarchy.
The monarch's end is far from inevitable, 68% of voters back the monarchy including an astonishing 61% on 18 to 24s.
The monarchy is far more popular than either the Tory of Labour parties in the UK and the Queen far more popular than either May or Corbyn
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
I don’t see how the last sentence can be true in the long term. We will be in or out, and once the issue has been decided in the next few weeks, I don’t think a majority of the public will be keen to reopen it for some time, unless we are in a prolonged state of utter chaos.
The next divide in politics will be are you for or against the policies of Corbyn’s government.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
LibDem majority ; back now while you can still get good odds!
I just saw a squadron of pigs fly past.
No, can't see it happening either. The LD majority that is; not the pigs!
Once I would have been sad; not as sure now after what the Coalition did in some areas, notably legal aid.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
There are probably vast numbers unreconciled to gay marriage. There were vast numbers unreconciled to decimalisation. We don't hear from these people en masse because these things actually happened, and those on the losing side got used to it or simply moved on. The Brexit process, due to politicians on both sides, has not yet allowed that healing to begin, and for Remainers it's a constant agony of their hopes being raised. After Brexit, these people can decide if they want to leave the country, or far more likely, they will get on with their lives.
Or, more likely, campaign to rejoin. Gay marriage and decimalisation didn’t have serious detrimental effects on the country as a whole. Brexit will. If we Brexit there will be no healing. You underestimate the passion that Farage has unleashed on the Remain side. They will be as determined to get us back in as he was to get us out. This won’t heal until a workable compromise can be reached.
I can get it to pass the commons. A meaningful vote on 11th or 12th after the judgment of the summit where the forced option is pass the WA or it’s definitely a conscious no deal decoupling, that will ensure enough labour votes to pass it. It’s not even a gamble, it would certainly pass that forced choice.
Tick. If the EU are cruel to be kind and refuse an extension the WA will pass pronto. But will they do that? Or will they prefer to be kind to be cruel? I think the latter. If MPs do not pass the WA in the next few days we are going to be tormented with a long extension.
As I commented yesterday, it just needs one EU leader to say "I will approve no more extensions."
Leave-seat Labour MPs would no longer have the luxury to fanny about.....
It's not that simple because there are other parties with options - in particular, TMay could revoke. Also that leader can't prove that they're telling the truth.
PS One of the things we can do with smart contract platforms like Ethereum is create terrifyingly effective commitment devices for situations like this.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
I don’t see how the last sentence can be true in the long term. We will be in or out, and once the issue has been decided in the next few weeks, I don’t think a majority of the public will be keen to reopen it for some time, unless we are in a prolonged state of utter chaos.
The next divide in politics will be are you for or against the policies of Corbyn’s government.
I'm sure HYFUD has the details, but I think there was a poll showing about 3 times as many people identifying as leave or remain compared to with a political party.
<<I think a Labour-Lib Dem coalition is very likely at some point between now and the next couple of years, however unlikely that may still seem at the moment.>>
<<If labour are like 3 short, sure. If not they might as well ask the Greens>>
I think there's also a broader issue of reviving LD support in the southwest, and a ceiling on Corbyn seats. Unlikely as it may seem now, you may at some time see a kind of moderated Corbynism in alliance with both the Lib Dems and SNP.
Do you mean that LD support in the SW is reviving?
Yes.
Good; by-election results across the rest of the country are generally encouraging, too. Newport's this week as well!
The LibDems had some really good by-election results too, in the run-up to the 2015 General Election.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
I don’t see how the last sentence can be true in the long term. We will be in or out, and once the issue has been decided in the next few weeks, I don’t think a majority of the public will be keen to reopen it for some time, unless we are in a prolonged state of utter chaos.
The next divide in politics will be are you for or against the policies of Corbyn’s government.
Just want to highlight the flaw in your argument above.
I can get it to pass the commons. A meaningful vote on 11th or 12th after the judgment of the summit where the forced option is pass the WA or it’s definitely a conscious no deal decoupling, that will ensure enough labour votes to pass it. It’s not even a gamble, it would certainly pass that forced choice.
Tick. If the EU are cruel to be kind and refuse an extension the WA will pass pronto. But will they do that? Or will they prefer to be kind to be cruel? I think the latter. If MPs do not pass the WA in the next few days we are going to be tormented with a long extension.
As I commented yesterday, it just needs one EU leader to say "I will approve no more extensions."
Leave-seat Labour MPs would no longer have the luxury to fanny about.....
It's not that simple because there are other parties with options - in particular, TMay could revoke. Also that leader can't prove that they're telling the truth.
PS One of the things we can do with smart contract platforms like Ethereum is create terrifyingly effective commitment devices for situations like this.
I've never seen any implementation of Blockchain that couldn't be better done both more cheaply and easily with paper / pen or a centralised database...
<<I think a Labour-Lib Dem coalition is very likely at some point between now and the next couple of years, however unlikely that may still seem at the moment.>>
<<If labour are like 3 short, sure. If not they might as well ask the Greens>>
I think there's also a broader issue of reviving LD support in the southwest, and a ceiling on Corbyn seats. Unlikely as it may seem now, you may at some time see a kind of moderated Corbynism in alliance with both the Lib Dems and SNP.
Do you mean that LD support in the SW is reviving?
Yes.
Good; by-election results across the rest of the country are generally encouraging, too. Newport's this week as well!
The LibDems had some really good by-election results too, in the run-up to the 2015 General Election.
Where they went from 57 seats to 8.....
That's not my memory. However, as always, I'm prepared to be shown I'm wrong.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
And it is ridiculous “Parliament” criticising May for not following an “alternative” course when they won’t even give her an alternative course to reject to follow.
Nail. Head.
May refused to give them an alternative until she was forced to do so just a few days ago.
She’s tried to dictate the whole process from the beginning. If it wasn’t for Gina Miller, Parliament would not have been asked at all.
And when she did offer alternatives they rejected them all. Rendering your point moot.
Gina Miller really has a lot to answer for. But Parliament has far more to answer for.
Have a good morning.
Agreed. May's main priority has always been to construct a Brexit that best suits the Conservative Party. The interests of the 58% of us that didn't vote Conservative in 2017 don't figure at all.
Corbyn is content with that because he believes No Deal is a disaster and wants the Conservatives to fall into that trap and pay the electoral price.
Since the Tories fell into further chaos and Labour came out (almost) for a people's vote, he certainly seems to be on a roll. Will be interesting to see the next YouGov and Survation VI.
It would be remiss of Corbyn to allow the Tory Party to regroup while in full retreat. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to destroy them electorally. Though Corbyn is a rubbish leader at least he's transitory which is more than can be said for the damage that has been inflicted on us by Cameron and Co
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
People who hold a European identity will never be reconciled. Just as Irish Nationalists will never be reconciled with partition, Scottish Nationalists never reconciled with the Union. The ideal that leaving will make the passions go away is misguided and patronising. As someone said below, Brexit has launched an actively pro-EU sentiment in this country that will not go away and Brexiteers are going to have to come up with some way of ameliorating it a la devolution or the Good Friday Agreement.
And it is ridiculous “Parliament” criticising May for not following an “alternative” course when they won’t even give her an alternative course to reject to follow.
Nail. Head.
May refused to give them an alternative until she was forced to do so just a few days ago.
She’s tried to dictate the whole process from the beginning. If it wasn’t for Gina Miller, Parliament would not have been asked at all.
And when she did offer alternatives they rejected them all. Rendering your point moot.
Gina Miller really has a lot to answer for. But Parliament has far more to answer for.
Have a good morning.
Agreed. May's main priority has always been to construct a Brexit that best suits the Conservative Party. The interests of the 58% of us that didn't vote Conservative in 2017 don't figure at all.
Corbyn is content with that because he believes No Deal is a disaster and wants the Conservatives to fall into that trap and pay the electoral price.
Since the Tories fell into further chaos and Labour came out (almost) for a people's vote, he certainly seems to be on a roll. Will be interesting to see the next YouGov and Survation VI.
It would be remiss of Corbyn to allow the Tory Party to regroup while in full retreat. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to destroy them electorally. Though Corbyn is a rubbish leader at least he's transitory which is more than can be said for the damage that has been inflicted on us by Cameron and Co
The same could be said of Labour. Either party could implode at any time right now
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
I'm all in favour of bringing in someone from Europe to run the show. However it is a certain former finance minister from Greece who I have in mind.
In terms of the polling support for revoke - do we have a flavour of whether revoke and remain or revoke, renegotiate and reapply art 50 is the aim?
My guess is that it's the former. If we revoke I can't see many, and certainly not those supporting revoke, having the appetite to put the country through this again any time soon.
In terms of the polling support for revoke - do we have a flavour of whether revoke and remain or revoke, renegotiate and reapply art 50 is the aim?
Your second option is the wrong order. It would have to be "revoke, reapply art 50 and renegotiate."
Part of the reason negotiations were so fraught is the EU refused to negotiate at all or even set out basic parameters in advance of article 50 being invoked - I think partly because they thought it would be a waste of time as if they broke down we wouldn't invoke at all (no irony there).
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Yep, same here. Also the prospects of preventing leave happening seemed zero until about then whatever I thought about it. Thoughtful leavers ought to be reflecting on just how badly their side played their hand.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
I regard "healing" in non-medical contexts as mere psychobabble and what I am after is just a functioning country. A *competently executed* brexit would be fine by me except that I have now concluded it's impossible. But if you like the metaphor, you haven't actually managed to inflict the wound yet after nearly 3 years of trying. Horses before carts, please.
I can get it to pass the commons. A meaningful vote on 11th or 12th after the judgment of the summit where the forced option is pass the WA or it’s definitely a conscious no deal decoupling, that will ensure enough labour votes to pass it. It’s not even a gamble, it would certainly pass that forced choice.
Tick. If the EU are cruel to be kind and refuse an extension the WA will pass pronto. But will they do that? Or will they prefer to be kind to be cruel? I think the latter. If MPs do not pass the WA in the next few days we are going to be tormented with a long extension.
As I commented yesterday, it just needs one EU leader to say "I will approve no more extensions."
Leave-seat Labour MPs would no longer have the luxury to fanny about.....
It's not that simple because there are other parties with options - in particular, TMay could revoke. Also that leader can't prove that they're telling the truth.
PS One of the things we can do with smart contract platforms like Ethereum is create terrifyingly effective commitment devices for situations like this.
I've never seen any implementation of Blockchain that couldn't be better done both more cheaply and easily with paper / pen or a centralised database...
Commitments by sovereign states are a weird exception to that. Ordinary contracts don't work because unlike us, they're not bound by laws.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
I'm all in favour of bringing in someone from Europe to run the show. However it is a certain former finance minister from Greece who I have in mind.
I bought his ‘brief history of capitalism’ book yesterday.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
The DUP could hardly object since they celebrate the adoption of a foreign leader every July.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
I'm all in favour of bringing in someone from Europe to run the show. However it is a certain former finance minister from Greece who I have in mind.
He's a shoo-in for the post of chief negotiator with Brussels in the forthcoming Corbyn government. They've already allocated a parking spot for his motorbike.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
LibDem majority ; back now while you can still get good odds!
I just saw a squadron of pigs fly past.
No, can't see it happening either. The LD majority that is; not the pigs!
Once I would have been sad; not as sure now after what the Coalition did in some areas, notably legal aid.
OKC, hard to believe but under Willie Rennie in Scotland they are even more useless, the man is dire and they have completely lost it. People will not forget their treachery with the Tories.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
I regard "healing" in non-medical contexts as mere psychobabble and what I am after is just a functioning country. A *competently executed* brexit would be fine by me except that I have now concluded it's impossible. But if you like the metaphor, you haven't actually managed to inflict the wound yet after nearly 3 years of trying. Horses before carts, please.
That's true. In fact it is worse than that. People often deploy metaphors instead of arguments, when what they mean makes no sense spelled out.
‘New Party A’ would emphasise community and society, be happy with current or higher levels of immigration, want more action to tackle climate change, support aid to poorer countries, promote rehabilitation in the criminal justice system, strongly support rights for same-sex couples and favour international co-operation, including the closest possible links with the EU after Brexit. ‘New Party B’ would aim to reduce immigration, take a tougher line on law and order, spend the international aid budget in the UK instead, prefer the UK to act independently with few formal ties to the EU after Brexit, and argue that the threat of climate change had been exaggerated, that traditional values had been wrongly neglected and that the government had become too much of a nanny state. When I asked people how they would vote in an election with these new entrants standing against the current players, the liberal ‘New Party A’ did well, with 24% of the vote, including nearly a third of 2017 Labour voters and nearly half of Lib Dems. But they were pipped at the post by the much more conservative ‘New Party B’, with 27%, including more than four in ten 2017 Tories and nearly half of Leave voters.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
I'm all in favour of bringing in someone from Europe to run the show. However it is a certain former finance minister from Greece who I have in mind.
I bought his ‘brief history of capitalism’ book yesterday.
It’s self-indulgent self-promotional nonsense, like everything he writes or says. Where some people get the idea that he a well informed, objective observer is beyond me.
Revoke and then re trigger Article 50 would be an act of bad faith and I wouldn’t support it .
Further revoke would cause huge problems socially . A long extension for another EU vote I would support .
I’m very surprised by the 41% for revoke but shows IMO that as some irresponsible MPs have pushed no deal this has polarized the Remain vote .
I've always opposed a second vote partly on timing grounds but also because with the country so divided I think it would make matters worse, not better, unless it was a huge win for Leave (which seems unlikely).
But I'm starting to think with Parliament paralysed and plainly useless it's the only option left.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
I don’t see how the last sentence can be true in the long term. We will be in or out, and once the issue has been decided in the next few weeks, I don’t think a majority of the public will be keen to reopen it for some time, unless we are in a prolonged state of utter chaos.
The next divide in politics will be are you for or against the policies of Corbyn’s government.
Just want to highlight the flaw in your argument above.
I should have said months instead of weeks.
Whether we are in or out of the EU will be decided by the autumn. The longest delay would be for a second referendum, and I don’t see that happening later than September or October.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
I'm all in favour of bringing in someone from Europe to run the show. However it is a certain former finance minister from Greece who I have in mind.
I bought his ‘brief history of capitalism’ book yesterday.
It’s self-indulgent self-promotional nonsense, like everything he writes or says. Where some people get the idea that he a well informed, objective observer is beyond me.
I don’t think he’s objective but I find him compelling to listen to.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
I don’t see how the last sentence can be true in the long term. We will be in or out, and once the issue has been decided in the next few weeks, I don’t think a majority of the public will be keen to reopen it for some time, unless we are in a prolonged state of utter chaos.
The next divide in politics will be are you for or against the policies of Corbyn’s government.
Just want to highlight the flaw in your argument above.
I should have said months instead of weeks.
Whether we are in or out of the EU will be decided by the autumn. The longest delay would be for a second referendum, and I don’t see that happening later than September or October.
I admire your optimism and hope it proves well-founded.
In terms of the polling support for revoke - do we have a flavour of whether revoke and remain or revoke, renegotiate and reapply art 50 is the aim?
I think the "Did Magna Carta die in vain?" brigade would justifiably have a fit if we just revoked and remained. Much as I loathe referendums I think we would be obliged either to hold another one* or to re apply art 50, or both.
*On the basis that it is only advisory, and so was the last one, and that mandatory referendums are impossible under our constitution because they are incompatible with parliamentary sovereignty, despite what any sleazeball on either side asserts during the campaign.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
The ultras on both sides are completely disinterested in consensus. Why would they be? Their aim is total victory at all costs. Most people sit in the no man's land between the trenches, doing their best to ignore the artillery fire or praying for it to stop.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
I'm all in favour of bringing in someone from Europe to run the show. However it is a certain former finance minister from Greece who I have in mind.
I bought his ‘brief history of capitalism’ book yesterday.
If it is anything like 'Adults in the Room' you won't be disappointed.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
People who hold a European identity will never be reconciled. Just as Irish Nationalists will never be reconciled with partition, Scottish Nationalists never reconciled with the Union. The ideal that leaving will make the passions go away is misguided and patronising. As someone said below, Brexit has launched an actively pro-EU sentiment in this country that will not go away and Brexiteers are going to have to come up with some way of ameliorating it a la devolution or the Good Friday Agreement.
You may take comfort from what you perceive to be a more active interest in the EU as a cause, others will see recent activity as very much in line with current trends in identity politics, the grievance culture, etc.. Once we've left, I highly doubt going back in will be more than a niche interest. I don't actually agree with your comments about Scottish nationalists (I live in Scotland), but to try and claim that wanting to be part of the political machinery of the EU is an issue of the same order seems deluded to me.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
You may think it's tragic. They do not.
[I'm puzzled by your last sentence: "And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively." Are you saying that the ones impacted negatively should not respond, or do not count? Perhaps if you identified the people who you think do count then it would be easier to understand]
The same language used by Kippers and Tommy Robinson types.
Take a look in the mirror will you.
I am looking rather handsome. Lib Dems abandoning their principles and being the useful idiots for the Tories is just that, they are not to be trusted ever, the big bully's little helpers. At least you know the Tories are nasty but you can never trust liars.
‘New Party A’ would emphasise community and society, be happy with current or higher levels of immigration, want more action to tackle climate change, support aid to poorer countries, promote rehabilitation in the criminal justice system, strongly support rights for same-sex couples and favour international co-operation, including the closest possible links with the EU after Brexit. ‘New Party B’ would aim to reduce immigration, take a tougher line on law and order, spend the international aid budget in the UK instead, prefer the UK to act independently with few formal ties to the EU after Brexit, and argue that the threat of climate change had been exaggerated, that traditional values had been wrongly neglected and that the government had become too much of a nanny state. When I asked people how they would vote in an election with these new entrants standing against the current players, the liberal ‘New Party A’ did well, with 24% of the vote, including nearly a third of 2017 Labour voters and nearly half of Lib Dems. But they were pipped at the post by the much more conservative ‘New Party B’, with 27%, including more than four in ten 2017 Tories and nearly half of Leave voters.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
LibDem majority ; back now while you can still get good odds!
I just saw a squadron of pigs fly past.
No, can't see it happening either. The LD majority that is; not the pigs!
Once I would have been sad; not as sure now after what the Coalition did in some areas, notably legal aid.
OKC, hard to believe but under Willie Rennie in Scotland they are even more useless, the man is dire and they have completely lost it. People will not forget their treachery with the Tories.
I thought Rennie wasn't a bad lad originally. I wouldn't go as far a s 'treachery', but Clegg was about as bad a bloke to negotiate with Cameron as you could have.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
I'm all in favour of bringing in someone from Europe to run the show. However it is a certain former finance minister from Greece who I have in mind.
I bought his ‘brief history of capitalism’ book yesterday.
‘New Party A’ would emphasise community and society, be happy with current or higher levels of immigration, want more action to tackle climate change, support aid to poorer countries, promote rehabilitation in the criminal justice system, strongly support rights for same-sex couples and favour international co-operation, including the closest possible links with the EU after Brexit. ‘New Party B’ would aim to reduce immigration, take a tougher line on law and order, spend the international aid budget in the UK instead, prefer the UK to act independently with few formal ties to the EU after Brexit, and argue that the threat of climate change had been exaggerated, that traditional values had been wrongly neglected and that the government had become too much of a nanny state. When I asked people how they would vote in an election with these new entrants standing against the current players, the liberal ‘New Party A’ did well, with 24% of the vote, including nearly a third of 2017 Labour voters and nearly half of Lib Dems. But they were pipped at the post by the much more conservative ‘New Party B’, with 27%, including more than four in ten 2017 Tories and nearly half of Leave voters.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
I regard "healing" in non-medical contexts as mere psychobabble and what I am after is just a functioning country. A *competently executed* brexit would be fine by me except that I have now concluded it's impossible. But if you like the metaphor, you haven't actually managed to inflict the wound yet after nearly 3 years of trying. Horses before carts, please.
The wound I'm referring to happened upon the result. Not to believe in psychological wounding is an interesting and seemingly rather an eccentric view, harking back to pre World War 1 days.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
I don’t see how the last sentence can be true in the long term. We will be in or out, and once the issue has been decided in the next few weeks, I don’t think a majority of the public will be keen to reopen it for some time, unless we are in a prolonged state of utter chaos.
The next divide in politics will be are you for or against the policies of Corbyn’s government.
Just want to highlight the flaw in your argument above.
I should have said months instead of weeks.
Whether we are in or out of the EU will be decided by the autumn. The longest delay would be for a second referendum, and I don’t see that happening later than September or October.
Revoke and then re trigger Article 50 would be an act of bad faith and I wouldn’t support it .
Further revoke would cause huge problems socially . A long extension for another EU vote I would support .
I’m very surprised by the 41% for revoke but shows IMO that as some irresponsible MPs have pushed no deal this has polarized the Remain vote .
I've always opposed a second vote partly on timing grounds but also because with the country so divided I think it would make matters worse, not better, unless it was a huge win for Leave (which seems unlikely).
But I'm starting to think with Parliament paralysed and plainly useless it's the only option left.
It gets Parliament (and May) off the hook.
Put May's deal to the people - Deal versus Remain. Extend A50 until the vote. Then we either Leave the EU with May's Deal or we leave... the whole sorry episode behind us.
New Tory Leader selected in parallel and GE to follow in the autumn. Simple.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
Before the referendum there was a decade or so where a whole mass of people were feeling as let down by the government/EU as the petition signers do now, and the petition signers and the politicians they admire did everything possible to ignore/silence/mock them. You would think they would reflect on that occasionally.
‘New Party A’ would emphasise community and society, be happy with current or higher levels of immigration, want more action to tackle climate change, support aid to poorer countries, promote rehabilitation in the criminal justice system, strongly support rights for same-sex couples and favour international co-operation, including the closest possible links with the EU after Brexit. ‘New Party B’ would aim to reduce immigration, take a tougher line on law and order, spend the international aidhe UK instead, prefer the UK to act independently with few formal ties to the EU after Brexit, and argue that the threat of climate change had been exaggerated, that traditional values had been wrongly neglected and that the government had become too much of a nanny state. When I asked people how they would vote in an election with these new entrants standing against the current players, the liberal ‘New Party A’ did well, with 24% of the vote, including nearly a third of 2017 Labour voters and nearly half of Lib Dems. But they were pipped at the post by the much more conservative ‘New Party B’, with 27%, including more than four in ten 2017 Tories and nearly half of Leave voters.
Hardly decisive, especially with barely half the electorate between them. Where are the other options?
The current parties.
Ok. Making some deductions from the article that would produce something like:
New social conservatives: 27% New social liberal 24% Labour around 22% Conservative around 20% LibDem around 4% Others 3%
Under our current voting system that would be a very messy election, impossible to predict.
For fun, I had a go on electoral calculus using the following shares:
New social conservatives (UKIP): 27% New social liberal (LD) 24%+4% Labour around 22% Conservative around 20%
Result was: New social conservatives (UKIP): 98 New social liberal (LD) 121 Labour around 22% 241! Conservative around 20% 115
Lab 85 short of overall majority Coalition government Lab +LD 241+121
The SDP would be the new Social Conservatives there I think, not UKIP
Labour is amazingly resilient in terms of seat numbers at low vote share. Far more than the Tories.
Under current vote spread. However if their leave vote desert they'd have a big problem as those northern strongholds would crumble at higher national vote share
For example, running labour through Scotland in 2011 at 25% wouldn't have reduced them to 1 seat
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
I'm all in favour of bringing in someone from Europe to run the show. However it is a certain former finance minister from Greece who I have in mind.
I bought his ‘brief history of capitalism’ book yesterday.
It’s self-indulgent self-promotional nonsense, like everything he writes or says. Where some people get the idea that he a well informed, objective observer is beyond me.
I don’t think he’s objective but I find him compelling to listen to.
Economics isn't an objective science, it is politics. Varoufakis has attempted to show more economic pragmatism to achieve Leftist goals than most of those he had to deal with whatever their political colours.
If Tories don't like him, then I see that as a recommendation.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
I'm all in favour of bringing in someone from Europe to run the show. However it is a certain former finance minister from Greece who I have in mind.
I bought his ‘brief history of capitalism’ book yesterday.
It’s self-indulgent self-promotional nonsense, like everything he writes or says. Where some people get the idea that he a well informed, objective observer is beyond me.
I don’t think he’s objective but I find him compelling to listen to.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
LibDem majority ; back now while you can still get good odds!
I just saw a squadron of pigs fly past.
No, can't see it happening either. The LD majority that is; not the pigs!
Once I would have been sad; not as sure now after what the Coalition did in some areas, notably legal aid.
OKC, hard to believe but under Willie Rennie in Scotland they are even more useless, the man is dire and they have completely lost it. People will not forget their treachery with the Tories.
I thought Rennie wasn't a bad lad originally. I wouldn't go as far a s 'treachery', but Clegg was about as bad a bloke to negotiate with Cameron as you could have.
OKC, you cannot trust liars. Rennie is the ultimate empty suit, absolutely useless waste of space.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
I don't think this is true, at all. I'm not seeing anyone talking about the benefits of the EU, any more than I did during the referendum campaign. All there is, is more of the same economic doom-mongering, with a huge layer of sore loserness thrown on top. Nothing about Erasmus, or trade deals, or security co-operation, or shared values.
The real problem with the referendum was that most of the country approached it like it was a football match: picked a side and are now determined to defend that position to the hilt, regardless of the actual result. Leavers got overly triumphalistic, Remainers started blaming the weather, the referee and accusing their opponents of cheating. The only way out is for one side to stop caring.
I need to bugger off, but before I go - when I saw that 170 Tory MPs are advocating No Deal I just thought 'WTF???'. The Kipperite lunatics truly have taken over the Tory parliamentary party.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
People who hold a European identity will never be reconciled. Just as Irish Nationalists will never be reconciled with partition, Scottish Nationalists never reconciled with the Union. The ideal that leaving will make the passions go away is misguided and patronising. As someone said below, Brexit has launched an actively pro-EU sentiment in this country that will not go away and Brexiteers are going to have to come up with some way of ameliorating it a la devolution or the Good Friday Agreement.
You may take comfort from what you perceive to be a more active interest in the EU as a cause, others will see recent activity as very much in line with current trends in identity politics, the grievance culture, etc.. Once we've left, I highly doubt going back in will be more than a niche interest. I don't actually agree with your comments about Scottish nationalists (I live in Scotland), but to try and claim that wanting to be part of the political machinery of the EU is an issue of the same order seems deluded to me.
We have to differ. It will be far more than a niche interest but a pressing, urgent, cause. If the EU were just “political machinery” you may have been right but many feel that not being in the EU disconnects us in a vital way from a European polity of which we are a part. We will feel politically disconnected in the same way an Irish Nationalist from Belfast feels disconnected from his compatriots in the south. The fact that you underestimate that strength of feeling is worrying. This is a chasm in British society that we will not recover from just by leaving, in fact the economic harm will exacerbate it, and spouting some psychobabble about “healing”, which is the new “get over it” it seems, won’t change that.
‘New Party A’ would emphasise community and society, be happy with current or higher levels of immigration, want more action to tackle climate change, support aid to poorer countries, promote rehabilitation in the criminal justice system, strongly support rights for same-sex couples and favour international co-operation, including the closest possible links with the EU after Brexit. ‘New Party B’ would aim to reduce immigration, take a tougher line on law and order, spend the international aid budget in the UK instead, prefer the UK to act independently with few formal ties to the EU after Brexit, and argue that the threat of climate change had been exaggerated, that traditional values had been wrongly neglected and that the government had become too much of a nanny state. When I asked people how they would vote in an election with these new entrants standing against the current players, the liberal ‘New Party A’ did well, with 24% of the vote, including nearly a third of 2017 Labour voters and nearly half of Lib Dems. But they were pipped at the post by the much more conservative ‘New Party B’, with 27%, including more than four in ten 2017 Tories and nearly half of Leave voters.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
I regard "healing" in non-medical contexts as mere psychobabble and what I am after is just a functioning country. A *competently executed* brexit would be fine by me except that I have now concluded it's impossible. But if you like the metaphor, you haven't actually managed to inflict the wound yet after nearly 3 years of trying. Horses before carts, please.
The wound I'm referring to happened upon the result. Not to believe in psychological wounding is an interesting and seemingly rather an eccentric view, harking back to pre World War 1 days.
‘New Party A’ would emphasise community and society, be happy with current or higher levels of immigration, want more action to tackle climate change, support aid to poorer countries, promote rehabilitation in the criminal justice system, strongly support rights for same-sex couples and favour international co-operation, including the closest possible links with the EU after Brexit. ‘New Party B’ would aim to reduce immigration, take a tougher line on law and order, spend the international aid budget in the UK instead, prefer the UK to act independently with few formal ties to the EU after Brexit, and argue that the threat of climate change had been exaggerated, that traditional values had been wrongly neglected and that the government had become too much of a nanny state. When I asked people how they would vote in an election with these new entrants standing against the current players, the liberal ‘New Party A’ did well, with 24% of the vote, including nearly a third of 2017 Labour voters and nearly half of Lib Dems. But they were pipped at the post by the much more conservative ‘New Party B’, with 27%, including more than four in ten 2017 Tories and nearly half of Leave voters.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
There are probably vast numbers unreconciled to gay marriage. There were vast numbers unreconciled to decimalisation. We don't hear from these people en masse because these things actually happened, and those on the losing side got used to it or simply moved on. The Brexit process, due to politicians on both sides, has not yet allowed that healing to begin, and for Remainers it's a constant agony of their hopes being raised. After Brexit, these people can decide if they want to leave the country, or far more likely, they will get on with their lives.
Or, more likely, campaign to rejoin. Gay marriage and decimalisation didn’t have serious detrimental effects on the country as a whole. Brexit will. If we Brexit there will be no healing. You underestimate the passion that Farage has unleashed on the Remain side. They will be as determined to get us back in as he was to get us out. This won’t heal until a workable compromise can be reached.
Decimalisation: agreed; gay marriage: there are a whole bunch of people who've been protesting in Birmingham who do not agree, and that situation is unlikely to improve any time soon. I could also add ending capital punishment: there are a lot of people who strongly believe that the violent crime rate is much higher than it would be if it was still around, although it's definitely a minority that will decrease rapidly over the next few decades.
The campaign in the former case has been pretty localised to date, and the the latter totally non-existent. Unless there's total identifiable chaos caused by Brexit, I don't envision much of a campaign to rejoin.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
This is certainly now a thing, and a very surprising thing. Thinking we would be better off remaining is one thing, but to actually be a flag-waving cheerleader for the EU just seems mad.
They have demonstrated a calm maturity and political common purpose of which we can only dream.
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
I'm all in favour of bringing in someone from Europe to run the show. However it is a certain former finance minister from Greece who I have in mind.
I bought his ‘brief history of capitalism’ book yesterday.
It’s self-indulgent self-promotional nonsense, like everything he writes or says. Where some people get the idea that he a well informed, objective observer is beyond me.
I don’t think he’s objective but I find him compelling to listen to.
Economics isn't an objective science, it is politics. Varoufakis has attempted to show more economic pragmatism to achieve Leftist goals than most of those he had to deal with whatever their political colours.
If Tories don't like him, then I see that as a recommendation.
Varoufakis is much less of a commie leftists than people think he is, as the internal economist for Valve he oversaw the development of a pretty wild west open market and vastly increased profitability of a private company that pays almost zero corporate tax anywhere in the world.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
But unfortunately, all this just prevents healing. If you think of the sheer vituperation, the sheer energy and effort expended on the non-acceptance of us leaving, here at PB alone, it's tragic. Some of you could have written a book! And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively.
People who hold a European identity will never be reconciled. Just as Irish Nationalists will never be reconciled with partition, Scottish Nationalists never reconciled with the Union. The ideal that leaving will make the passions go away is misguided and patronising. As someone said below, Brexit has launched an actively pro-EU sentiment in this country that will not go away and Brexiteers are going to have to come up with some way of ameliorating it a la devolution or the Good Friday Agreement.
You may take comfort from what you perceive to be a more active interest in the EU as a cause, others will see recent activity as very much in line with current trends in identity politics, the grievance culture, etc.. Once we've left, I highly doubt going back in will be more than a niche interest. I don't actually agree with your comments about Scottish nationalists (I live in Scotland), but to try and claim that wanting to be part of the political machinery of the EU is an issue of the same order seems deluded to me.
Looking at the innards of Deltapoll, Common Market 2, and Leave with Customs Union are actually the two most popular options, in net terms, 40/35 and 37/29. respectively.
Including TIG also has the effect of significantly boosting support for UKIP and the Brexit Party, to 12%, an effect I've noticed with several polls. It seems that prompting for TIG gives a boost to minor parties generally.
Including multiple options, 36% support cancelling Brexit, 26% support No Deal, 12% want May's deal, 13% want a different deal.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
I don’t see how the last sentence can be true in the long term. We will be in or out, and once the issue has been decided in the next few weeks, I don’t think a majority of the public will be keen to reopen it for some time, unless we are in a prolonged state of utter chaos.
The next divide in politics will be are you for or against the policies of Corbyn’s government.
Just want to highlight the flaw in your argument above.
I need to bugger off, but before I go - when I saw that 170 Tory MPs are advocating No Deal I just thought 'WTF???'. The Kipperite lunatics truly have taken over the Tory parliamentary party.
I had a similar reaction. Despite everything I still cannot quite believe 170+ Tory MPs are no deal suppoters now, essentially, despite protests no doubt, the same as any Baker or Francois. I was at least tentatively hopeful of the upcoming votes coming up with a softish compromise that enough Tories would back, but with more than half the parliamentary party now in the full on crash out Brexit mode, the government will collapse first.
Revoke and then re trigger Article 50 would be an act of bad faith and I wouldn’t support it .
Further revoke would cause huge problems socially . A long extension for another EU vote I would support .
I’m very surprised by the 41% for revoke but shows IMO that as some irresponsible MPs have pushed no deal this has polarized the Remain vote .
You've got the reason it is happening spot on. But that doesn't alter the fact that it is now the most popular option. I have a feeling it is growing in support. It's not an obvious that a sudden outbreak of moderation on the leave side would change the situation.
‘New Party A’ would emphasise community and society, be happy with current or higher levels of immigration, want more action to tackle climate change, support aid to poorer countries, promote rehabilitation in the criminal justice system, strongly support rights for same-sex couples and favour international co-operation, including the closest possible links with the EU after Brexit. ‘New Party B’ would aim to reduce immigration, take a tougher line on law and order, spend the international aid budget in the UK instead, prefer the UK to act independently with few formal ties to the EU after Brexit, and argue that the threat of climate change had been exaggerated, that traditional values had been wrongly neglected and that the government had become too much of a nanny state. When I asked people how they would vote in an election with these new entrants standing against the current players, the liberal ‘New Party A’ did well, with 24% of the vote, including nearly a third of 2017 Labour voters and nearly half of Lib Dems. But they were pipped at the post by the much more conservative ‘New Party B’, with 27%, including more than four in ten 2017 Tories and nearly half of Leave voters.
Hardly decisive, especially with barely half the electorate between them. Where are the other options?
The current parties.
Ok. Making some deductions from the article that would produce something like:
New social conservatives: 27% New social liberal 24% Labour around 22% Conservative around 20% LibDem around 4% Others 3%
Under our current voting system that would be a very messy election, impossible to predict.
For fun, I had a go on electoral calculus using the following shares:
New social conservatives (UKIP): 27% New social liberal (LD) 24%+4% Labour around 22% Conservative around 20%
Result was: New social conservatives (UKIP): 98 New social liberal (LD) 121 Labour around 22% 241! Conservative around 20% 115
Lab 85 short of overall majority Coalition government Lab +LD 241+121
The SDP would be the new Social Conservatives there I think, not UKIP
Yes - but similar social and economic values to UKIP so I have taken the basic UKIP vote as an indicator of the appeal of the new social conservatives in each constituency.
It's an interesting side effect of the last three years that Europhilia has now emerged as such a significant political force. Before 2016 those in favour of the EU were generally reluctant remainers, pragmatists primarily motivated by what they believed to be in the country's best interests. But their passions were not stirred by Brussels.
Now, we see EU flags everywhere, the 'ode to joy' being fervently sung in its original German, and Donald Tusk elevated to superhero status. Who know what the implications for our politics will be, but for sure the EU is now the salient issue for many more people than it used to be - and not in the direction one would have expected.
That's right. Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Farage has caused this upsurge in Europhilia. The genie is out of the bottle. It will dominate UK politics in a way it never did prior to 2016. Political parties will be defined more by their stance on the EU than by economics.
I don't think this is true, at all. I'm not seeing anyone talking about the benefits of the EU, any more than I did during the referendum campaign. All there is, is more of the same economic doom-mongering, with a huge layer of sore loserness thrown on top. Nothing about Erasmus, or trade deals, or security co-operation, or shared values.
The real problem with the referendum was that most of the country approached it like it was a football match: picked a side and are now determined to defend that position to the hilt, regardless of the actual result. Leavers got overly triumphalistic, Remainers started blaming the weather, the referee and accusing their opponents of cheating. The only way out is for one side to stop caring.
Revoke and then re trigger Article 50 would be an act of bad faith and I wouldn’t support it .
Further revoke would cause huge problems socially . A long extension for another EU vote I would support .
I’m very surprised by the 41% for revoke but shows IMO that as some irresponsible MPs have pushed no deal this has polarized the Remain vote .
You've got the reason it is happening spot on. But that doesn't alter the fact that it is now the most popular option. I have a feeling it is growing in support. It's not an obvious that a sudden outbreak of moderation on the leave side would change the situation.
In practice, I think that people who are polled who favour Revoke would correspond almost 100% with those who favour a second Referendum.
I need to bugger off, but before I go - when I saw that 170 Tory MPs are advocating No Deal I just thought 'WTF???'. The Kipperite lunatics truly have taken over the Tory parliamentary party.
I had a similar reaction. Despite everything I still cannot quite believe 170+ Tory MPs are no deal suppoters now, essentially, despite protests no doubt, the same as any Baker or Francois. I was at least tentatively hopeful of the upcoming votes coming up with a softish compromise that enough Tories would back, but with more than half the parliamentary party now in the full on crash out Brexit mode, the government will collapse first.
Are they people who want No Deal, or who can accept No Deal?
I’m very surprised by the 41% for revoke but shows IMO that as some irresponsible MPs have pushed no deal this has polarized the Remain vote .
I think you're reading too much into that poll. Answering that you would support revocation doesn't mean you're a Remainer who supports doing it without a referendum. It doesn't even mean you're a Remainer. There have been several articles from Brexiteers saying we should revoke.
I need to bugger off, but before I go - when I saw that 170 Tory MPs are advocating No Deal I just thought 'WTF???'. The Kipperite lunatics truly have taken over the Tory parliamentary party.
I had a similar reaction. Despite everything I still cannot quite believe 170+ Tory MPs are no deal suppoters now, essentially, despite protests no doubt, the same as any Baker or Francois. I was at least tentatively hopeful of the upcoming votes coming up with a softish compromise that enough Tories would back, but with more than half the parliamentary party now in the full on crash out Brexit mode, the government will collapse first.
Are they people who want No Deal, or who can accept No Deal?
Or people who don't want No Deal, but want to be seen to want it.
The only thing to note about the Revoke petition is that there are vast numbers of people who are completely unreconciled to the referendum result. That is important and rather than seeking to pooh pooh it, Leavers should ask themselves why they have completely failed to establish a consensus, even a grudging one, for their project.
They won’t, of course.
I suspect thst it would have been the same had the result been reversed. It’s just that an equivalent strength of feeling is completely unexpected to the Farage-lites.
My signing it had nothing to do with being unreconciled to the referendum result. I was 51/49 in favour of remain in 2016, I thought that a result is a result and that Leave had won the right to a reasonable shot at arranging an acceptable brexit. So I wouldn't have signed it any time up to, say, autumn 2018. This is important, because to say that it is based only on being unreconciled to the result invites a "sore loser" response.
Likewise. Day after the ref I assumed Leavers had a plan and we would leave in an orderly fashion and life would go on. Instead it turned into a shambles and my attitude has hardened the more I see and hear of the great denizens of Leave, Francois, Mogg, Farage, Banks, Robinson.
Me too. Until quite recently I thought it was fair to honour the referendum result, stupid as it was.
Comments
Leave-seat Labour MPs would no longer have the luxury to fanny about.....
If we can't persuade Sturgeon to forget Scotindy and run the whole UK, we should ask Tusk. Plenty of precedent from history shipping someone in when things got dicky at home
The next divide in politics will be are you for or against the policies of Corbyn’s government.
Once I would have been sad; not as sure now after what the Coalition did in some areas, notably legal aid.
PS One of the things we can do with smart contract platforms like Ethereum is create terrifyingly effective commitment devices for situations like this.
Where they went from 57 seats to 8.....
Part of the reason negotiations were so fraught is the EU refused to negotiate at all or even set out basic parameters in advance of article 50 being invoked - I think partly because they thought it would be a waste of time as if they broke down we wouldn't invoke at all (no irony there).
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/30/joe-biden-2020-candidate-1244375
Further revoke would cause huge problems socially . A long extension for another EU vote I would support .
I’m very surprised by the 41% for revoke but shows IMO that as some irresponsible MPs have pushed no deal this has polarized the Remain vote .
Take a look in the mirror will you.
But I'm starting to think with Parliament paralysed and plainly useless it's the only option left.
Whether we are in or out of the EU will be decided by the autumn. The longest delay would be for a second referendum, and I don’t see that happening later than September or October.
*On the basis that it is only advisory, and so was the last one, and that mandatory referendums are impossible under our constitution because they are incompatible with parliamentary sovereignty, despite what any sleazeball on either side asserts during the campaign.
[I'm puzzled by your last sentence: "And really the ones doing it are the only ones being impacted negatively." Are you saying that the ones impacted negatively should not respond, or do not count? Perhaps if you identified the people who you think do count then it would be easier to understand]
[Sorry, couldn't resist it...
Put May's deal to the people - Deal versus Remain. Extend A50 until the vote. Then we either Leave the EU with May's Deal or we leave... the whole sorry episode behind us.
New Tory Leader selected in parallel and GE to follow in the autumn. Simple.
For example, running labour through Scotland in 2011 at 25% wouldn't have reduced them to 1 seat
If Tories don't like him, then I see that as a recommendation.
The real problem with the referendum was that most of the country approached it like it was a football match: picked a side and are now determined to defend that position to the hilt, regardless of the actual result. Leavers got overly triumphalistic, Remainers started blaming the weather, the referee and accusing their opponents of cheating. The only way out is for one side to stop caring.
The campaign in the former case has been pretty localised to date, and the the latter totally non-existent. Unless there's total identifiable chaos caused by Brexit, I don't envision much of a campaign to rejoin.
Winning margin 2016 1,269,501
Difference between revoke petition and [Leave with no deal plus leave with or without deal] petitions 5,234,172
The stays have it, the stays have it.
Including TIG also has the effect of significantly boosting support for UKIP and the Brexit Party, to 12%, an effect I've noticed with several polls. It seems that prompting for TIG gives a boost to minor parties generally.
Including multiple options, 36% support cancelling Brexit, 26% support No Deal, 12% want May's deal, 13% want a different deal.
https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1112300203023970304
Sell outs.