The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond exasperated with those self indulgent prats who have voted against this document 3 times now. Their reckless disregard for British business in rejecting the transitional period is contemptible. Why are they doing this?
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
The next government will rule for its supporters as they all do. If Jezza is elected PM, will he bear in mind the wishes of the majority who voted against him?
"Oh, I won't go for full socialism, the Tories might not like it."
Yes - he is equally “If you’re not with us you’re against us”. Both parties are now in the grip of a nasty illiberal wing. It bodes very badly for our political culture and for the health of our democracy and society.
I am saddenned that Dominic Grieve has been deselected and I hope this is overturned. I do not agree with his stance but he is a fine conservative politician and the party has to be a broad church
Marc Francois, Steve Baker and other zealots should be the real ones to be deselected. After all Farage's new party is their natural home, not my conservative party.
I would also deselect my own mp, Guto Bebb, who has been at cross swords with his association for a long time and needs to go, not only over brexit, but the his natural recurring uselessness
Thank you @david_herdson for the header. I agree with you that a No Deal exit is inevitable now. I have said so for a while. It is extremely sad. The ERG - a group as loathsome, destructive and stupid as Militant Tendency and the Corbynistas - will win and are acting as the Corbynistas’ useful idiots.
What do you have to say about Corbyn whipping all of his MPs to also oppose the deal in all circumstances too then?
If we had just 30-40 Labour MPs breaking ranks on this, this wouldn’t be happening.
The Labour offer to support a deal including permanent customs union has been on the table for a YEAR, to the annoyance of the substantial No Brexit body of opinion in the party. Mrs May has declined to accept it because she believes it would split the Tory Party. Fine, but she (and you) can't then reasonably complain that Labour is dogmtically opposing any deal. To say "I am only prepared to accept one kind of deal and unless you accept that you're a wrecker" is simply silly.
I am saddenned that Dominic Grieve has been deselected and I hope this is overturned. I do not agree with his stance but he is a fine conservative politician and the party has to be a broad church
Marc Francois, Steve Baker and other zealots should be the real ones to be deselected. After all Farage's new party is their natural home, not my conservative party.
I would also deselect my own mp, Guto Bebb, who has been at cross swords with his association for a long time and needs to go, not only over brexit, but the his natural recurring uselessness
I am saddenned that Dominic Grieve has been deselected and I hope this is overturned. I do not agree with his stance but he is a fine conservative politician and the party has to be a broad church
Marc Francois, Steve Baker and other zealots should be the real ones to be deselected. After all Farage's new party is their natural home, not my conservative party.
I would also deselect my own mp, Guto Bebb, who has been at cross swords with his association for a long time and needs to go, not only over brexit, but the his natural recurring uselessness
If being useless were a disqualification they'd be down there with the LibDems
Mr. G, it remains a supreme irony that if the SNP had won their referendum Scotland would be out of the EU and England, Wales, and Northern Ireland would be in it.
MD , we would have been back in long ago
You would probably have left the UK this coming week. Then you could have applied under Article 49 for membership of the EU, which I suspect would in practice have taken three years to ratify.
3 minutes more like, they would have had us in years ago and stuck two fingers up to England earlier than they have done. The chickens have not half come home to roost, Johnny Foreigner has given England two black eyes now, when do they deliver the coup de grace of the bloody nose.
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
The Prime Minister is the individual that commands the confidence of the majority of the Commons. May has always been answerable to Parliament. Constitutional history didn’t begin in 2016. Indeed, and I’m sure people on here are tired of hearing this, the Leave campaign ran on a slogan of giving Parliament back control.
Taking back control from the EU not the PM
As I say, Parliament controls the PM, it visa versa.
So, had Remain won, Cameron’s Deal with the EU would have had to pass Parliament, and if it didn’t we would have remained on pre June 2016 terms?
I don’t know. What I do know is that the PM is answerable to Parliament
The basic fact is that Parliament was elected, May wasn’t, she was appointed by the Queen as having the confidence of Parliament. That last point is now debatable however.
But why does Mays deal, agreed with the EU, have to get parliamentary approval when Cameron’s renegotiation didn’t?
You could say as Cameron put his Deal to the people, so should have May (without parliamentary approval) in a referendum between her Deal and no deal (Cameron’s Deal/Remain having been eliminated in 2016). That’s fair enough.
Because that’s what Parliament, or at least the Commoms, which (unlike May) has a direct mandate from the people, decided. It’s their decision as the direct representatives of the people. I guess, but don’t know, they decided it because withdrawal from the EU has vastly greater economic and constitutional consequences than Cameron’s tinkering. As for referendums, you either have a representative democracy or a direct democracy, they don’t work together.
Again, May has no direct democratic mandate, it is dangerous to let her use 2016 to enable her to push through whatever fundamental changes she saw fit, and it was right for the representatives of the people sitting in Parliament to put her on a short leash. Don’t like the representatives? Then replace them at the next election.
At midnight, on referendum day, I left the pub having congratulated the Remainers on winning. I woke to a pleasant surprise, but it wasn't major.
In my naivety, I expected Brexit to go through with the usual political point-scoring but not much else. I was unprepared for the torrent of anger and spite that came from some of the losers. Slightly amused by the LDs declaring their anti-democratic credential, I'd have been very surprised by the thought of a no-deal situation.
But I assumed the HoC wouldn't expect to be able to change the result. If it could, why was the referendum called a referendum, and why did they pledge to honour it. The expenses scandal showed they were greedy, this shows they are hypocritical and amoral too.
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond exasperated with those self indulgent prats who have voted against this document 3 times now. Their reckless disregard for British business in rejecting the transitional period is contemptible. Why are they doing this?
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Scum they may be (I disagree) but what is the word for those who voted leave who are now amazed at the current situation.
You can either be amazed at the current situation and be wholly ignorant about politics or you can understand politics and not be remotely amazed.
But you cannot both understand politics and be amazed at today's events.
Grieve is a loss to the Tories, but he does not represent their voters or the Govt policy on the main issue of the day. I'm afraid he is as I'll suited to those who elected him on this matter as Kate Hoey is to hers, I'd have probably votes for his deselection last night were I a Beaconsfield Tory. I would vote to keep Boles or Letwin in place.
Grieve is a Remainer and his constituency voted to Remain. It is his local party which is out of kilter with the majority of voters in Beaconsfield.
There are some revisionists who try and portray John as a good king. They're categorically wrong.
The usual thing they cite is that he kept the nation's coffers full. Partly this was because he lacked his brother's (Richard the Lionheart's) charisma and skill and couldn't persuade men to follow him to war in France, and partly it was because John had a penchant for extorting money from people through punitive taxation.
It's no coincidence that almost the moment he died and William Marshal took over the war against the invading (and somewhat invited) French took a turn for the better.
Edited extra bit: to clarify the first half of the money point: John needed the cash to pay for mercenaries because he'd try and summon an army and it wouldn't turn up.
I am saddenned that Dominic Grieve has been deselected and I hope this is overturned. I do not agree with his stance but he is a fine conservative politician and the party has to be a broad church
Marc Francois, Steve Baker and other zealots should be the real ones to be deselected. After all Farage's new party is their natural home, not my conservative party.
I would also deselect my own mp, Guto Bebb, who has been at cross swords with his association for a long time and needs to go, not only over brexit, but the his natural recurring uselessness
We cannot have a situation where a government even with a notional majority can't put through its most important policy because people holding Conservative seats will not support it. Exactly the same applies to the likes of Bill Cash who should have been deselected decades ago. Otherwise we continue the current shambles, in office but not in power.
It would be difficult to describe how people have misjudged the British over the years. We had a priceless reputation as a creative intelligent liberal innovative cool headed people and those of us who work overseas have benefitted hugely from this misconception.
This will now vanish as quickly as Ratner's reputation for quality jewellry. Mark Francois is the new Richard Branson.
Time to leave without a deal. The loonies have taken over the asylum. To those looking for Irish passports-Adh mor!
Morning all and an excellent thread David. I have only lurked in recent weeks because I feared what I might write in response to some of the London-centric Remoaners on this site who have absolutely no idea about the anger in the country outside London and Edinburgh.
I am delighted that the constituency association of Beaconsfield has taken the first step in ditching Dominic Grieve. Although a very clever man he has set his face in opposition to stated government policy, one upon which he stood at the 2017 GE.
Now the others who opposed the PM should be subjected to similar votes and if only the good folks at Rayleigh and Wickford would prick Mark Francois little bubble, that would be great but I fear they will be cheering him on!
Personally my first priority is to get out of the EU. If we can do so on the back of MV4 fine. If not then a No-deal would do because both sides would realise quickly they need a deal. Personally I would bring the Irish to heel by crippling their economy immediately and burst the DUP bubble by announcing a discussion on a united Ireland referendum. Even Arlene Foster would shit herself then.
Just as well I am not PM because I would have all these young knife killers taking a long walk off a wooden platform with a noose around their necks and those caught carrying knives birched!
That's me back off to lurking.
Is this a misguided attempt at satire? You would cripple the economy of a friendly neighbouring state for no reason whatsoever, an action that would in many eras be considered literally an act of war (economic or otherwise), one we could not hope to win given the international sympathy the Irish have compared to our current sorry isolationism? Irish America would stop any prospect of any sort of deal with the US. Brexit has driven some people mad. Either that or you are a psychopath.
He's a Scottish Tory, ergo..
Wonder which Scottish Tory MP/MSP it was
I believe it's Easteross as was, I don't remember him being quite such a loonball. Perhaps, like so many of his party, he has reverted to deranged caveman.
Lots of mentions of Tory MPs not sticking to the manifesto and all that - especially Dominic Grieve. This is always nonsense of course as MPs are only any use in so far as they can think for themselves. If you took out of the House of Commons all the people who are at serious odds with their various leaders you would only have silly MPs left. But it is especially useless now as the Tories spectacularly failed to win the election. They have to do their best with a minority, their manifesto having been rejected by the voters along with all the others.
I am saddenned that Dominic Grieve has been deselected and I hope this is overturned. I do not agree with his stance but he is a fine conservative politician and the party has to be a broad church
Marc Francois, Steve Baker and other zealots should be the real ones to be deselected. After all Farage's new party is their natural home, not my conservative party.
I would also deselect my own mp, Guto Bebb, who has been at cross swords with his association for a long time and needs to go, not only over brexit, but the his natural recurring uselessness
The xenophobes have taken over G, time to get out.
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond exasperated with those self indulgent prats who have voted against this document 3 times now. Their reckless disregard for British business in rejecting the transitional period is contemptible. Why are they doing this?
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Scum they may be (I disagree) but what is the word for those who voted leave who are now amazed at the current situation.
You can either be amazed at the current situation and be wholly ignorant about politics or you can understand politics and not be remotely amazed.
But you cannot both understand politics and be amazed at today's events.
I think the vast majority that voted leave have the right to be amazed at how this has been handled. May's staggering incompetence and inability to lead any conversation, build any consensus, even failing to take account of the wishes of the DUP on whom her government depends. Remainers complete intransigence and dishonesty (admitted aggravated by the first factor). A Chancellor who refused to prepare for no deal. I think we were entitled to expect better than this from both sides, much better.
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
l.
Taking back control from the EU not the PM
As I say, Parliament controls the PM, it visa versa.
So, had Remain won, Cameron’s Deal with the EU would have had to pass Parliament, and if it didn’t we would have remained on pre June 2016 terms?
I don’t know. What I do know is that the PM is answerable to Parliament
The basic fact is that Parliament was elected, May wasn’t, she was appointed by the Queen as having the confidence of Parliament. That last point is now debatable however.
But why does Mays deal, agreed with the EU, have to get parliamentary approval when Cameron’s renegotiation didn’t?
You could say as Cameron put his Deal to the people, so should have May (without parliamentary approval) in a referendum between her Deal and no deal (Cameron’s Deal/Remain having been eliminated in 2016). That’s fair enough.
Because that’s what Parliament, or at least the Commoms, which (unlike May) has a direct mandate from the people, decided. It’s their decision as the direct representatives of the people. I guess, but don’t know, they decided it because withdrawal from the EU has vastly greater economic and constitutional consequences than Cameron’s tinkering. As for referendums, you either have a representative democracy or a direct democracy, they don’t work together.
Again, May has no direct democratic mandate, it is dangerous to let her use 2016 to enable her to push through whatever fundamental changes she saw fit, and it was right for the representatives of the people sitting in Parliament to put her on a short leash. Don’t like the representatives? Then replace them at the next election.
"...you either have a representative democracy or a direct democracy, they don’t work together. "
That is the problem, but, given that a referendum was granted on the issue, and the previous deal didn't require ratification from the House, it was irresponsible for someone to propose what Grieve did, as it might lead to this, which it has. So sod him.
Mr. Punter, here's a short list of John's character flaws: 1) rebelled against his father 2) rebelled against his brother 3) mostly incompetent at war 4) extorted nobles and peasants 5) starved prisoners to death, a barbaric practice even in medieval times, including the odd woman and child 6) slew his nephew 7) lost pretty much all the Angevin Empire's continental possessions 8) lost the esteem of the nobility so much they rebelled and invited the French to invade 9) taunted William Marshal, a venerated warrior who ended up saving the kingdom for John's son 10) had a bad habit of sexually molesting noblewomen
There's probably more, but that's just off the top of my head.
Edited extra bit: Dr. Spyn was quite right to raise the other, mostly different, points above as well.
I see. Not good, but not as bad as Mrs May then.......?
I jest, of course. But it was a serious question. I had thought John had been the subject of a certain amount of revisionism, but am glad to be corrected.
Btw, I really enjoy the educational history posts on here, particularly your own. Take a bow, young man!
Sometimes, even after some revisionism, you have to conclude that someone is as bad as contemporaries said. John was England's second-worst King (Ethelred the Unready was worst)
If they ever make a Family Guy live action movie Mark Francois would be the perfect casting choice, in both temperament and appearance, to play Peter Griffin.
Mr. Punter, here's a short list of John's character flaws: 1) rebelled against his father 2) rebelled against his brother 3) mostly incompetent at war 4) extorted nobles and peasants 5) starved prisoners to death, a barbaric practice even in medieval times, including the odd woman and child 6) slew his nephew 7) lost pretty much all the Angevin Empire's continental possessions 8) lost the esteem of the nobility so much they rebelled and invited the French to invade 9) taunted William Marshal, a venerated warrior who ended up saving the kingdom for John's son 10) had a bad habit of sexually molesting noblewomen
There's probably more, but that's just off the top of my head.
Edited extra bit: Dr. Spyn was quite right to raise the other, mostly different, points above as well.
8) looks a fairly statesmanlike move atm. Perhaps JackW could do the honours?
As 354,897th in the line of succession I await the call .... and regularly answer with alacrity when Mrs JackW summons me !!
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond exasperated with those self indulgent prats who have voted against this document 3 times now. Their reckless disregard for British business in rejecting the transitional period is contemptible. Why are they doing this?
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Scum they may be (I disagree) but what is the word for those who voted leave who are now amazed at the current situation.
You can either be amazed at the current situation and be wholly ignorant about politics or you can understand politics and not be remotely amazed.
But you cannot both understand politics and be amazed at today's events.
As you repeatedly predicted the WDA would be approved doesn't that suggest that you are somewhat ignorant about politics ?
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond exasperated with those self indulgent prats who have voted against this document 3 times now. Their reckless disregard for British business in rejecting the transitional period is contemptible. Why are they doing this?
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Enough of this foolery. If there is to be a fourth vote next week, then May has to make it a Vote of Confidence. Any Tory MP, be they ultra Brexiteer or implacable Remainer, who fails to support, will be automatically refused reselection and Conservative Associations that don’t comply dissolved and new candidates imposed. Yesterday there were 29 rebels, I would have thought that most will fall into line, but the likes of Bridgen, Baker, Bone, Cash, Jenkyns, Francois, Jenkin et al won’t, so let’s celebrate their political martyrdom as they vanish into obscurity. By way of ‘balance’ I don’t have much sympathy for Grieve.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
Thank you again. It really is one of the pleasures of PB that whilst debating politics and betting one also learns about all sorts of other interesting stuff, like King John for instance.
Army wouldn't turn up when he asked? Now which contemporary politician does that remind me off....? ;-)
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
l.
Taking back control from the EU not the PM
As I say, Parliament controls the PM, it visa versa.
So, had Remain
I don’t know. What I do know is that the PM is answerable to Parliament
The basic fact is that Parliament was elected, May wasn’t, she was appointed by the Queen as having the confidence of Parliament. That last point is now debatable however.
But why does Mays deal, agreed with the EU, have to get parliamentary approval when Cameron’s renegotiation didn’t? .
Because that’s what Parliament, or at least the Commoms, which (unlike May) has a direct mandate from the people, decided. It’s their decision as the direct representatives of the people. I guess, but don’t know, they decided it because withdrawal from the EU has vastly greater economic and constitutional consequences than Cameron’s tinkering. As for referendums, you either have a representative democracy or a direct democracy, they don’t work together.
Again, May has no direct democratic mandate, it is dangerous to let her use 2016 to enable her to push through whatever fundamental changes she saw fit, and it was right for the representatives of the people sitting in Parliament to put her on a short leash. Don’t like the representatives? Then replace them at the next election.
"...you either have a representative democracy or a direct democracy, they don’t work together. "
That is the problem, but, given that a referendum was granted on the issue, and the previous deal didn't require ratification from the House, it was irresponsible for someone to propose what Grieve did, as it might lead to this, which it has. So sod him.
Deselection is a party, not a constitutional, matter. The Tories don’t own Beaconsfield as of right. Grieve, who was reflecting his constituents views as an MP should, can stand again as an Independent/TIG. My home town, Canterbury, showed in 2017 what happens when a local Tory candidate is out of kilter with his constituents. Beaconsfield being a Remain town I hope that whoever the local Tory branch foist on the town gets roundly defeated at the next election. Hopefully by Grieve. Not at all likely, I accept, but not impossible.
Personally I think if there gets to be a majority for another Brexit option on Monday (big if) there should be a national government formed whose sole task is to implement it. It probably won’t happen because the government won’t surrender it’s role easily and the Labour frontbench want the Tories alone tainted by this but I genuinely think it would be the best thing for the country now.
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond exasperated with those self indulgent prats who have voted against this document 3 times now. Their reckless disregard for British business in rejecting the transitional period is contemptible. Why are they doing this?
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Scum they may be (I disagree) but what is the word for those who voted leave who are now amazed at the current situation.
You can either be amazed at the current situation and be wholly ignorant about politics or you can understand politics and not be remotely amazed.
But you cannot both understand politics and be amazed at today's events.
As you repeatedly predicted the WDA would be approved doesn't that suggest that you are somewhat ignorant about politics ?
Still predict it. My main point has always been we cannot have no deal. I am not wrong. Yet.
But the flavour of this chaos is a tactical by product of leaving. What I could have told you, and what everyone who voted leave from Michael Gove to our very own @DavidL also should have known or wargamed, is that there would be chaos.
Enough of this foolery. If there is to be a fourth vote next week, then May has to make it a Vote of Confidence. Any Tory MP, be they ultra Brexiteer or implacable Remainer, who fails to support, will be automatically refused reselection and Conservative Associations that don’t comply dissolved and new candidates imposed. Yesterday there were 29 rebels, I would have thought that most will fall into line, but the likes of Bridgen, Baker, Bone, Cash, Jenkyns, Francois, Jenkin et al won’t, so let’s celebrate their political martyrdom as they vanish into obscurity. By way of ‘balance’ I don’t have much sympathy for Grieve.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
I must admit I'm slightly mystified by Labour constantly pushing a GE as the answer to everything. The evidence for how well they'll do (Tory shiteness notwithstanding) is at the very least mixed.
'Brexit: Snap poll risks wiping out Labour in Scotland'
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
SNIP
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Scum they may be (I disagree) but what is the word for those who voted leave who are now amazed at the current situation.
You can either be amazed at the current situation and be wholly ignorant about politics or you can understand politics and not be remotely amazed.
But you cannot both understand politics and be amazed at today's events.
I think the vast majority that voted leave have the right to be amazed at how this has been handled. May's staggering incompetence and inability to lead any conversation, build any consensus, even failing to take account of the wishes of the DUP on whom her government depends. Remainers complete intransigence and dishonesty (admitted aggravated by the first factor). A Chancellor who refused to prepare for no deal. I think we were entitled to expect better than this from both sides, much better.
David, Poetic justice for the crime of stooping to bribing the sectarian bigots, against normal practice as well, to cling to power. Tories are getting all they deserve, when you sup with the devil and all that.
Might a referendum between mays deal vs a customs union deal work? Taking out no deal and revoke/remain at the same time should be palatable for most if not their first preference. Hard to argue it doesn’t respect the previous referendum, tolerable for all bar the erg in the Tory party and gives labour an opportunity to unite on a clear choice of suppprting customs union and against mays deal.
The clusterfucker-in-chief manically flinging spanners into the works. We must all vote for Corbyn. Compared with this lot he's a model of restraint and normality. Literally.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
l.
Taking back control from the EU not the PM
As I say, Parliament controls the PM, it visa versa.
So, had Remain
I don’t know. What I do know is that the PM is answerable to Parliament
The basic fact is that Parliament was elected, May wasn’t, she was appointed by the Queen as having the confidence of Parliament. That last point is now debatable however.
But why does Mays deal, agreed with the EU, have to get parliamentary approval when Cameron’s renegotiation didn’t? .
Again, May has no direct democratic mandate, it is dangerous to let her use 2016 to enable her to push through whatever fundamental changes she saw fit, and it was right for the representatives of the people sitting in Parliament to put her on a short leash. Don’t like the representatives? Then replace them at the next election.
"...you either have a representative democracy or a direct democracy, they don’t work together. "
That is the problem, but, given that a referendum was granted on the issue, and the previous deal didn't require ratification from the House, it was irresponsible for someone to propose what Grieve did, as it might lead to this, which it has. So sod him.
Deselection is a party, not a constitutional, matter. The Tories don’t own Beaconsfield as of right. Grieve, who was reflecting his constituents views as an MP should, can stand again as an Independent/TIG. My home town, Canterbury, showed in 2017 what happens when a local Tory candidate is out of kilter with his constituents. Beaconsfield being a Remain town I hope that whoever the local Tory branch foist on the town gets roundly defeated at the next election. Hopefully by Grieve. Not at all likely, I accept, but not impossible.
It's of no concern to me really how Beaconsfield votes, I have just always thought the person to blame for the situation we find ourselves in is whoever made it so that MPs had the final say on the deal. To be honest, I thought that was Gina Miller! But if the cap fits wear it, and it fits DG
We cannot have a situation where a government even with a notional majority can't put through its most important policy because people holding Conservative seats will not support it. Exactly the same applies to the likes of Bill Cash who should have been deselected decades ago. Otherwise we continue the current shambles, in office but not in power.
Might a referendum between mays deal vs a customs union deal work? Taking out no deal and revoke/remain at the same time should be palatable for most if not their first preference. Hard to argue it doesn’t respect the previous referendum, tolerable for all bar the erg in the Tory party and gives labour an opportunity to unite on a clear choice of suppprting customs union and against mays deal.
I think the Brexiters don't recognise either of those options as leaving.
If they ever make a Family Guy live action movie Mark Francois would be the perfect casting choice, in both temperament and appearance, to play Peter Griffin.
Enough of this foolery. If there is to be a fourth vote next week, then May has to make it a Vote of Confidence. Any Tory MP, be they ultra Brexiteer or implacable Remainer, who fails to support, will be automatically refused reselection and Conservative Associations that don’t comply dissolved and new candidates imposed. Yesterday there were 29 rebels, I would have thought that most will fall into line, but the likes of Bridgen, Baker, Bone, Cash, Jenkyns, Francois, Jenkin et al won’t, so let’s celebrate their political martyrdom as they vanish into obscurity. By way of ‘balance’ I don’t have much sympathy for Grieve.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
Unfortunately she can’t do that now because of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. She can make it an issue of confidence in HER, to be sure, but there won’t necessarily be another election if she resigns. There would have to be a vote under the FTPA for one. Given the current state of the polls can anyone really predict the outcome of a GE with confidence?
Enough of this foolery. If there is to be a fourth vote next week, then May has to make it a Vote of Confidence. Any Tory MP, be they ultra Brexiteer or implacable Remainer, who fails to support, will be automatically refused reselection and Conservative Associations that don’t comply dissolved and new candidates imposed. Yesterday there were 29 rebels, I would have thought that most will fall into line, but the likes of Bridgen, Baker, Bone, Cash, Jenkyns, Francois, Jenkin et al won’t, so let’s celebrate their political martyrdom as they vanish into obscurity. By way of ‘balance’ I don’t have much sympathy for Grieve.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
Unfortunately she can’t do that now because of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. She can make it an issue of confidence in HER, to be sure, but there won’t necessarily be another election if she resigns. There would have to be a vote under the FTPA for one. Given the current state of the polls can anyone really predict the outcome of a GE with confidence?
True, but Labour will join the majority of Conservatives favouring dissolution (as in 2017) so the two thirds majority will be achieved.
Might a referendum between mays deal vs a customs union deal work? Taking out no deal and revoke/remain at the same time should be palatable for most if not their first preference. Hard to argue it doesn’t respect the previous referendum, tolerable for all bar the erg in the Tory party and gives labour an opportunity to unite on a clear choice of suppprting customs union and against mays deal.
Why would you exclude an option that on the polling seems to command majority support?
Enough of this foolery. If there is to be a fourth vote next week, then May has to make it a Vote of Confidence. Any Tory MP, be they ultra Brexiteer or implacable Remainer, who fails to support, will be automatically refused reselection and Conservative Associations that don’t comply dissolved and new candidates imposed. Yesterday there were 29 rebels, I would have thought that most will fall into line, but the likes of Bridgen, Baker, Bone, Cash, Jenkyns, Francois, Jenkin et al won’t, so let’s celebrate their political martyrdom as they vanish into obscurity. By way of ‘balance’ I don’t have much sympathy for Grieve.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
Good to see there are still plenty of sound Tories to make them worth voting for!
Enough of this foolery. If there is to be a fourth vote next week, then May has to make it a Vote of Confidence. Any Tory MP, be they ultra Brexiteer or implacable Remainer, who fails to support, will be automatically refused reselection and Conservative Associations that don’t comply dissolved and new candidates imposed. Yesterday there were 29 rebels, I would have thought that most will fall into line, but the likes of Bridgen, Baker, Bone, Cash, Jenkyns, Francois, Jenkin et al won’t, so let’s celebrate their political martyrdom as they vanish into obscurity. By way of ‘balance’ I don’t have much sympathy for Grieve.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
Let's hear it for Bournemouth's most celebrated, if unexpected, tourist ....
Personally I think if there gets to be a majority for another Brexit option on Monday (big if) there should be a national government formed whose sole task is to implement it. It probably won’t happen because the government won’t surrender it’s role easily and the Labour frontbench want the Tories alone tainted by this but I genuinely think it would be the best thing for the country now.
Implement what though. Accept the WDA, as we should have done all along, but nothing the HOC agrees to go in the political declaration to leave the EU is relevant at all
I have explained this earlier, and many, including nearly all our mps do not realise that post brexit and with another government, the trade deal negotiated with the EU could be anything of many options and most likely nothing remotely similar to that the HOC agrees to achieve brexit
Grieve doesn't seem to be getting much sympathy over on ConHome
It turns out purging of MPs by reference to ideological purity tests is only a problem if your opponents are doing it.
It’s not purity in that he has, for ideological reasons, sought to undermine an elected Conservative government.
That’s very different to rebelling occasionally on a point of principle.
He’s no different to Major’s bastards or to the more fanatical members of the ERG (I’d allow those who slunk home on 2.5 a stern talking to but the others should also be deselected)
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Scum they may be (I disagree) but what is the word for those who voted leave who are now amazed at the current situation.
You can either be amazed at the current situation and be wholly ignorant about politics or you can understand politics and not be remotely amazed.
But you cannot both understand politics and be amazed at today's events.
As you repeatedly predicted the WDA would be approved doesn't that suggest that you are somewhat ignorant about politics ?
Still predict it. My main point has always been we cannot have no deal. I am not wrong. Yet.
But the flavour of this chaos is a tactical by product of leaving. What I could have told you, and what everyone who voted leave from Michael Gove to our very own @DavidL also should have known or wargamed, is that there would be chaos.
I don't think anyone could have accurately predicted the last two years and nine months on 22nd June 2016.
Two things which I expected, but got wrong:-
1. The Conservatives would win an overall majority in a snap election 2. Pro-Brexit MP's would be happy with Brexit.
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond exasperated with those self indulgent prats who have voted against this document 3 times now. Their reckless disregard for British business in rejecting the transitional period is contemptible. Why are they doing this?
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Why can't May even talk about a Customs Union or any other permissible adjustment to the Deal that might be the basis of a consensus? She has had four opportunities to do so and hasn't moved a millimetre
Enough of this foolery. If there is to be a fourth vote next week, then May has to make it a Vote of Confidence. Any Tory MP, be they ultra Brexiteer or implacable Remainer, who fails to support, will be automatically refused reselection and Conservative Associations that don’t comply dissolved and new candidates imposed. Yesterday there were 29 rebels, I would have thought that most will fall into line, but the likes of Bridgen, Baker, Bone, Cash, Jenkyns, Francois, Jenkin et al won’t, so let’s celebrate their political martyrdom as they vanish into obscurity. By way of ‘balance’ I don’t have much sympathy for Grieve.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
Didn’t your man Dave scupper that approach with the FTPA
The clusterfucker-in-chief manically flinging spanners into the works. We must all vote for Corbyn. Compared with this lot he's a model of restraint and normality. Literally.
The one good thing to have emerged from the National Fiasco is that The Guardian have established themselves as the pre-eminent serious national newspaper
The clusterfucker-in-chief manically flinging spanners into the works. We must all vote for Corbyn. Compared with this lot he's a model of restraint and normality. Literally.
Worth adding to David Herdson's piece is that a GE is a really simple way to get an extension. Parliament doesn't have to agree anything (except Corbyn agreeing an election, which he would) and the EU would almost definitely grant a (long) extension for it. And if TMay won convincingly she could probably hang on as leader, which has to be a better outlook than her current one.
Enough of this foolery. If there is to be a fourth vote next week, then May has to make it a Vote of Confidence. Any Tory MP, be they ultra Brexiteer or implacable Remainer, who fails to support, will be automatically refused reselection and Conservative Associations that don’t comply dissolved and new candidates imposed. Yesterday there were 29 rebels, I would have thought that most will fall into line, but the likes of Bridgen, Baker, Bone, Cash, Jenkyns, Francois, Jenkin et al won’t, so let’s celebrate their political martyrdom as they vanish into obscurity. By way of ‘balance’ I don’t have much sympathy for Grieve.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
Unfortunately she can’t do that now because of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. She can make it an issue of confidence in HER, to be sure, but there won’t necessarily be another election if she resigns. There would have to be a vote under the FTPA for one. Given the current state of the polls can anyone really predict the outcome of a GE with confidence?
True, but Labour will join the majority of Conservatives favouring dissolution (as in 2017) so the two thirds majority will be achieved.
That’s the perceived wisdom but given the febrile polling I’m not convinced the numbers for a GE are there.
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Scum they may be (I disagree) but what is the word for those who voted leave who are now amazed at the current situation.
You can either be amazed at the current situation and be wholly ignorant about politics or you can understand politics and not be remotely amazed.
But you cannot both understand politics and be amazed at today's events.
As you repeatedly predicted the WDA would be approved doesn't that suggest that you are somewhat ignorant about politics ?
Still predict it. My main point has always been we cannot have no deal. I am not wrong. Yet.
But the flavour of this chaos is a tactical by product of leaving. What I could have told you, and what everyone who voted leave from Michael Gove to our very own @DavidL also should have known or wargamed, is that there would be chaos.
I don't think anyone could have accurately predicted the last two years and nine months on 22nd June 2016.
Two things which I expected, but got wrong:-
1. The Conservatives would win an overall majority in a snap election 2. Pro-Brexit MP's would be happy with Brexit.
I don't think either expectation was outlandish.
2. was never going to happen because of the contradictions of Brexit. Remainers who have lost can philosophically accept damage limitation; Leavers who have won can't, because they voted to make things better, not worse.
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond exasperated with those self indulgent prats who have voted against this document 3 times now. Their reckless disregard for British business in rejecting the transitional period is contemptible. Why are they doing this?
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
You can either be amazed at the current situation and be wholly ignorant about politics or you can understand politics and not be remotely amazed.
But you cannot both understand politics and be amazed at today's events.
As you repeatedly predicted the WDA would be approved doesn't that suggest that you are somewhat ignorant about politics ?
Still predict it. My main point has always been we cannot have no deal. I am not wrong. Yet.
But the flavour of this chaos is a tactical by product of leaving. What I could have told you, and what everyone who voted leave from Michael Gove to our very own @DavidL also should have known or wargamed, is that there would be chaos.
So when do you expect the WDA to be approved ?
You might have a point about political chaos being inevitable as proper preparation and attention to details are vital during Change Management processes.
And proper preparation and attention to detail are regarded as irrelevancies by our politicians compared with the all important social media posturing.
Might a referendum between mays deal vs a customs union deal work? Taking out no deal and revoke/remain at the same time should be palatable for most if not their first preference. Hard to argue it doesn’t respect the previous referendum, tolerable for all bar the erg in the Tory party and gives labour an opportunity to unite on a clear choice of suppprting customs union and against mays deal.
Why would you exclude an option that on the polling seems to command majority support?
Might a referendum between mays deal vs a customs union deal work? Taking out no deal and revoke/remain at the same time should be palatable for most if not their first preference. Hard to argue it doesn’t respect the previous referendum, tolerable for all bar the erg in the Tory party and gives labour an opportunity to unite on a clear choice of suppprting customs union and against mays deal.
If I was a current Labour MP I'd think that an offer worth considering (and you don't get more Europhile than me), on the basis that it really does respect the referendum but offers a comprehensible choice.
As Topping says, hardline Brexiteers wouldn't like it, and nor would hardline Remainers like me. But as a rational basis for proceeding, I can see its appeal.
Mr. F, interesting. I only know a little about Aethelred. Didn't he face stern opposition from Swein Forkbeard and then Canute?
He got driven out of England by them. By the end, most Saxon nobles had turned against him due to vicious incompetence.
His response to Danish raids was to slaughter thousands of people of Danish descent who had lived peacefully in England for decades. Unsurprisingly, the survivors rebelled.
Might a referendum between mays deal vs a customs union deal work? Taking out no deal and revoke/remain at the same time should be palatable for most if not their first preference. Hard to argue it doesn’t respect the previous referendum, tolerable for all bar the erg in the Tory party and gives labour an opportunity to unite on a clear choice of suppprting customs union and against mays deal.
Why would you exclude an option that on the polling seems to command majority support?
Because of the obvious resentment it would cause to leavers (whether that resentment is justified or not is another matter but it would exist and create problems for years to come). And would be very hard to get a remain referendum thru the current parliament or any that is likely to follow a general election.
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond exasperated with those self indulgent prats who have voted against this document 3 times now. Their reckless disregard for British business in rejecting the transitional period is contemptible. Why are they doing this?
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Why can't May even talk about a Customs Union or any other permissible adjustment to the Deal that might be the basis of a consensus? She has had four opportunities to do so and hasn't moved a millimetre
Enough of this foolery. If there is to be a fourth vote next week, then May has to make it a Vote of Confidence. Any Tory MP, be they ultra Brexiteer or implacable Remainer, who fails to support, will be automatically refused reselection and Conservative Associations that don’t comply dissolved and new candidates imposed. Yesterday there were 29 rebels, I would have thought that most will fall into line, but the likes of Bridgen, Baker, Bone, Cash, Jenkyns, Francois, Jenkin et al won’t, so let’s celebrate their political martyrdom as they vanish into obscurity. By way of ‘balance’ I don’t have much sympathy for Grieve.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
Didn’t your man Dave scupper that approach with the FTPA
Possibly the voting public don't care and will rally around, but what a terrible day for decent politics.
The Tories are now an unthinkable option for anyone under the age of 108.
They should elect Chope as leader and be done with it, focusing their energies on upskirting and furriner-baiting.
Detoxification lasted 10 years. Well done, Mrs May.
The Tories are according to polling, for what that is worth, either the most popular party in the country or level pegging as the most popular.
Whatever people think they deserve, and however much of the support is an anti Corbyn one, it is definitely not the case that they are demonstrably unpopular compared to other parties. Even if they lose the next election they will have the support of millions.
I know you were engaging in hyperbole, but as also happens with Corbyn people do sometimes forget that those they hate are still commanding much support.
Might a referendum between mays deal vs a customs union deal work? Taking out no deal and revoke/remain at the same time should be palatable for most if not their first preference. Hard to argue it doesn’t respect the previous referendum, tolerable for all bar the erg in the Tory party and gives labour an opportunity to unite on a clear choice of suppprting customs union and against mays deal.
Why would you exclude an option that on the polling seems to command majority support?
Because of the obvious resentment it would cause to leavers (whether that resentment is justified or not is another matter but it would exist and create problems for years to come). And would be very hard to get a remain referendum thru the current parliament or any that is likely to follow a general election.
Interesting idea of democracy, seeking to prevent the public choosing what looks like their preferred option.
Irish Times suggesting that Merkel is potentially coming to the rescue. Move the backstop into the PD and keep talking about it in the future relationship discussions. This could potentially fly.
I reiterate I do not like Grieve and that he has done a lot more in opposing the whip than most - many have eagerly at times suggested he was the real leader of the opposition- but that it us a troublesome path the Tories are on - he is respected and liked and far from alone in repeatedly defying the whip even the point of threatening the government.
Just a tiny, tiny flavour of what would be coming at us under a Corbyn government. And it's sod all to do with saving the planet. It's to ban the banks.
The WA is a 800 odd page document that in large part seeks to tidy up our departure from the EU and identify and resolve our various outstanding obligations. It does 2 other things of substance.
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Scum they may be (I disagree) but what is the word for those who voted leave who are now amazed at the current situation.
You can either be amazed at the current situation and be wholly ignorant about politics or you can understand politics and not be remotely amazed.
But you cannot both understand politics and be amazed at today's events.
As you repeatedly predicted the WDA would be approved doesn't that suggest that you are somewhat ignorant about politics ?
Still predict it. My main point has always been we cannot have no deal. I am not wrong. Yet.
But the flavour of this chaos is a tactical by product of leaving. What I could have told you, and what everyone who voted leave from Michael Gove to our very own @DavidL also should have known or wargamed, is that there would be chaos.
I don't think anyone could have accurately predicted the last two years and nine months on 22nd June 2016.
Two things which I expected, but got wrong:-
1. The Conservatives would win an overall majority in a snap election 2. Pro-Brexit MP's would be happy with Brexit.
I don't think either expectation was outlandish.
Definitely not outlandish but should have been assigned a probability.
Of course I don't think everyone should have done extensive scenario analysis but certainly the official Vote Leavers should have.
On the rebel numbers, I think Drax will move away from the deal next time round.
Drax said same this morning.
I hadn't seen this, I inferred it from his comments last night.
Drax was on 5Live this morning indicating that he felt intolerable pressure to vote Aye to MV3 and did so, but now felt it was an unprincipled move and he would vote No should the PM return the measure to the HoC.
Might a referendum between mays deal vs a customs union deal work? Taking out no deal and revoke/remain at the same time should be palatable for most if not their first preference. Hard to argue it doesn’t respect the previous referendum, tolerable for all bar the erg in the Tory party and gives labour an opportunity to unite on a clear choice of suppprting customs union and against mays deal.
Why would you exclude an option that on the polling seems to command majority support?
Because of the obvious resentment it would cause to leavers (whether that resentment is justified or not is another matter but it would exist and create problems for years to come). And would be very hard to get a remain referendum thru the current parliament or any that is likely to follow a general election.
Interesting idea of democracy, seeking to prevent the public choosing what looks like their preferred option.
It's what parliament have done for three years to what was definitely the public's preferred option!
Morris dancer is right about the commons. Still refusing to say yes to things and the logic of many of them means really they should revoke but they lack the guts.
A lot rests on Monday yet apparently they still dont plan to iron things out then and all May is focused on is that her deal has now technically become the most popular by votes recieved.
Grieve is a loss to the Tories, but he does not represent their voters or the Govt policy on the main issue of the day. I'm afraid he is as I'll suited to those who elected him on this matter as Kate Hoey is to hers, I'd have probably votes for his deselection last night were I a Beaconsfield Tory. I would vote to keep Boles or Letwin in place.
Except last nights Vote was one of confidence, not of deselection. Whether he is subsequently selected to stand for the Tories is another matter.
Might a referendum between mays deal vs a customs union deal work? Taking out no deal and revoke/remain at the same time should be palatable for most if not their first preference. Hard to argue it doesn’t respect the previous referendum, tolerable for all bar the erg in the Tory party and gives labour an opportunity to unite on a clear choice of suppprting customs union and against mays deal.
Why would you exclude an option that on the polling seems to command majority support?
Because of the obvious resentment it would cause to leavers (whether that resentment is justified or not is another matter but it would exist and create problems for years to come). And would be very hard to get a remain referendum thru the current parliament or any that is likely to follow a general election.
Interesting idea of democracy, seeking to prevent the public choosing what looks like their preferred option.
Hearing so many people claiming their view is the democratic one from all sides in this toxic debate. It is not a logical argument. Democratic opinions are not black and white, shift over time, expressed through many ways including not just referendums but also general elections (so need MPs on side), choice of government (so need pm and cabinet onside). Of course each side can pick and choose parts of democracy that support their view and claim that trumps the oppositions claims, but it will not lead anywhere when the country is so split.
Grieve’s problem is not so much that he is opposed to May’s deal but he has led the charge in undermining his own Gov.
LOL
At worst, what Grieve has succeeded in doing is allow Parliament to "Take Back Control"
Any Brexiteer who wasn't a charlatan would be cheering him to the rafters...
In criticism of Grieve, and not connected to his politics - 'Taking Back Control' for Parliament would only have been of use if the third rate Oedipus complexers could actually decide what the hell to do with it.
Indeed. Unless one is enamoured of the process alone it's not a good thing that mps have so called taken control until we see it achieve something. Maybe it will. But until it does snappy comments and smug posturing from mps about it is very misplaced
Might a referendum between mays deal vs a customs union deal work? Taking out no deal and revoke/remain at the same time should be palatable for most if not their first preference. Hard to argue it doesn’t respect the previous referendum, tolerable for all bar the erg in the Tory party and gives labour an opportunity to unite on a clear choice of suppprting customs union and against mays deal.
Why would you exclude an option that on the polling seems to command majority support?
Because of the obvious resentment it would cause to leavers (whether that resentment is justified or not is another matter but it would exist and create problems for years to come). And would be very hard to get a remain referendum thru the current parliament or any that is likely to follow a general election.
Interesting idea of democracy, seeking to prevent the public choosing what looks like their preferred option.
Hearing so many people claiming their view is the democratic one from all sides in this toxic debate. It is not a logical argument. Democratic opinions are not black and white, shift over time, expressed through many ways including not just referendums but also general elections (so need MPs on side), choice of government (so need pm and cabinet onside). Of course each side can pick and choose parts of democracy that support their view and claim that trumps the oppositions claims, but it will not lead anywhere when the country is so split.
If this fiasco has proved anything it's that there is no need for centrist Remainers to fear Corbyn. He will be as impotent as May. A majority of his MPs wont support a return to his 70s socialist utopia. He'll preside over a middle of the road centre left government. Just what we need after the insanity of the last 4 years.
Mr. Roger, an utterly wrong argument. May doesn't have the support of her party, yet witness her own ability to frustrate some options and demand others. The idea an impotent and feeble-minded PM can't cause huge damage is being disproven on a daily basis, and that's without the PM in question being a Hamas-befriending, wreath-laying, socialist cretin.
Enough of this foolery. If there is to be a fourth vote next week, then May has to make it a Vote of Confidence. Any Tory MP, be they ultra Brexiteer or implacable Remainer, who fails to support, will be automatically refused reselection and Conservative Associations that don’t comply dissolved and new candidates imposed. Yesterday there were 29 rebels, I would have thought that most will fall into line, but the likes of Bridgen, Baker, Bone, Cash, Jenkyns, Francois, Jenkin et al won’t, so let’s celebrate their political martyrdom as they vanish into obscurity. By way of ‘balance’ I don’t have much sympathy for Grieve.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
On the rebel numbers, I think Drax will move away from the deal next time round.
Drax said same this morning.
I hadn't seen this, I inferred it from his comments last night.
Drax was on 5Live this morning indicating that he felt intolerable pressure to vote Aye to MV3 and did so, but now felt it was an unprincipled move and he would vote No should the PM return the measure to the HoC.
He sounds like a fool. Either it was the right thing to do or it wasn't, it's not like voting in the commons is the hitting of a button he had plenty of time to wake up in the division lobby and rush round to the other and correct the record.
I'll put him in the column of MPs whose main concern is feeling embarrassed and avoiding blame for their actions, given he made a call and is apparently now whimpering about it. Especially since yesterday he seemed upset hed switched and it lost, which everyone expected.
Comments
Firstly, it commits us to the backstop so that if we fail to come to any other deal the NI border remains largely unregulated. Secondly, it provides a transitional period in which we retain many of the benefits of being in the EU so that our businesses can continue to trade without additional impediment.
The first of these might be thought to tie our hands to some degree on the future relationship and is thought to be problematic. The second of these is genuinely important given the incompetent and inept way this government has sought to facilitate preparations for our departure.
I am just beyond exasperated with those self indulgent prats who have voted against this document 3 times now. Their reckless disregard for British business in rejecting the transitional period is contemptible. Why are they doing this?
Obviously most just do not want to leave. They want longer extensions, second referendums, pretty much anything that stops us from actually leaving. When these people were re-elected as recently as 2017 on an undertaking to implement Brexit that is disgusting behaviour, truly shameful.
Some do want to leave (they say) but not on these terms. When asked what is wrong with these terms they immediately start discussing the future relationship which is non binding and in the PA. The fact that these things are up for grabs in the second stage really seems to pass them by.
I am beyond fed up with our politicians, their stupidity, their self important arrogance, their ignorance and their complete indifference to the consequences of this continued uncertainty on our economy. They are scum.
Yes - he is equally “If you’re not with us you’re against us”. Both parties are now in the grip of a nasty illiberal wing. It bodes very badly for our political culture and for the health of our democracy and society.
Marc Francois, Steve Baker and other zealots should be the real ones to be deselected. After all Farage's new party is their natural home, not my conservative party.
I would also deselect my own mp, Guto Bebb, who has been at cross swords with his association for a long time and needs to go, not only over brexit, but the his natural recurring uselessness
A great and historic party is in real trouble.
Again, May has no direct democratic mandate, it is dangerous to let her use 2016 to enable her to push through whatever fundamental changes she saw fit, and it was right for the representatives of the people sitting in Parliament to put her on a short leash. Don’t like the representatives? Then replace them at the next election.
At midnight, on referendum day, I left the pub having congratulated the Remainers on winning. I woke to a pleasant surprise, but it wasn't major.
In my naivety, I expected Brexit to go through with the usual political point-scoring but not much else. I was unprepared for the torrent of anger and spite that came from some of the losers. Slightly amused by the LDs declaring their anti-democratic credential, I'd have been very surprised by the thought of a no-deal situation.
But I assumed the HoC wouldn't expect to be able to change the result. If it could, why was the referendum called a referendum, and why did they pledge to honour it. The expenses scandal showed they were greedy, this shows they are hypocritical and amoral too.
You can either be amazed at the current situation and be wholly ignorant about politics or you can understand politics and not be remotely amazed.
But you cannot both understand politics and be amazed at today's events.
There are some revisionists who try and portray John as a good king. They're categorically wrong.
The usual thing they cite is that he kept the nation's coffers full. Partly this was because he lacked his brother's (Richard the Lionheart's) charisma and skill and couldn't persuade men to follow him to war in France, and partly it was because John had a penchant for extorting money from people through punitive taxation.
It's no coincidence that almost the moment he died and William Marshal took over the war against the invading (and somewhat invited) French took a turn for the better.
Edited extra bit: to clarify the first half of the money point: John needed the cash to pay for mercenaries because he'd try and summon an army and it wouldn't turn up.
This will now vanish as quickly as Ratner's reputation for quality jewellry. Mark Francois is the new Richard Branson.
Time to leave without a deal. The loonies have taken over the asylum. To those looking for Irish passports-Adh mor!
Roger O'Reilly
That is the problem, but, given that a referendum was granted on the issue, and the previous deal didn't require ratification from the House, it was irresponsible for someone to propose what Grieve did, as it might lead to this, which it has. So sod him.
Sure, the Govt would fall, and Corbyn and far left Labour will take over and probably win the subsequent election, but we simply cannot go on like this. Oh, and sod the DUP.
Thank you again. It really is one of the pleasures of PB that whilst debating politics and betting one also learns about all sorts of other interesting stuff, like King John for instance.
Army wouldn't turn up when he asked? Now which contemporary politician does that remind me off....? ;-)
Have a very nice weekend.
But the flavour of this chaos is a tactical by product of leaving. What I could have told you, and what everyone who voted leave from Michael Gove to our very own @DavidL also should have known or wargamed, is that there would be chaos.
'Brexit: Snap poll risks wiping out Labour in Scotland'
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8df2448a-5269-11e9-ab3c-aad12815c817
https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1111754601848598528
Edit and welcome!
https://twitter.com/benjaminbutter/status/1111390701185490944
Mr. Above, welcome to PB.
That might risk annoying both sides as the options would be 'soft' departure or an even softer version.
For all their flaws, remaining and leaving with no deal do have the advantages of at least being clear-cut.
However, the problem of what to have as options in a theoretical second referendum is not to be underestimated.
Agree with all that.
I have explained this earlier, and many, including nearly all our mps do not realise that post brexit and with another government, the trade deal negotiated with the EU could be anything of many options and most likely nothing remotely similar to that the HOC agrees to achieve brexit
That’s very different to rebelling occasionally on a point of principle.
He’s no different to Major’s bastards or to the more fanatical members of the ERG (I’d allow those who slunk home on 2.5 a stern talking to but the others should also be deselected)
Two things which I expected, but got wrong:-
1. The Conservatives would win an overall majority in a snap election
2. Pro-Brexit MP's would be happy with Brexit.
I don't think either expectation was outlandish.
You might have a point about political chaos being inevitable as proper preparation and attention to details are vital during Change Management processes.
And proper preparation and attention to detail are regarded as irrelevancies by our politicians compared with the all important social media posturing.
As Topping says, hardline Brexiteers wouldn't like it, and nor would hardline Remainers like me. But as a rational basis for proceeding, I can see its appeal.
His response to Danish raids was to slaughter thousands of people of Danish descent who had lived peacefully in England for decades. Unsurprisingly, the survivors rebelled.
Whatever people think they deserve, and however much of the support is an anti Corbyn one, it is definitely not the case that they are demonstrably unpopular compared to other parties. Even if they lose the next election they will have the support of millions.
I know you were engaging in hyperbole, but as also happens with Corbyn people do sometimes forget that those they hate are still commanding much support.
Irish Times suggesting that Merkel is potentially coming to the rescue. Move the backstop into the PD and keep talking about it in the future relationship discussions.
This could potentially fly.
Dopey sod. John's only real rival, it seems, for King of Idiots.
Of course I don't think everyone should have done extensive scenario analysis but certainly the official Vote Leavers should have.
"He's behind you, Dominic!"
"Oh no I'm not...."
A lot rests on Monday yet apparently they still dont plan to iron things out then and all May is focused on is that her deal has now technically become the most popular by votes recieved.
40 odd weeks holiday a year, nice job!
https://twitter.com/Sneekyboy/status/1111923610929844224
Mr. Roger, an utterly wrong argument. May doesn't have the support of her party, yet witness her own ability to frustrate some options and demand others. The idea an impotent and feeble-minded PM can't cause huge damage is being disproven on a daily basis, and that's without the PM in question being a Hamas-befriending, wreath-laying, socialist cretin.
I'll put him in the column of MPs whose main concern is feeling embarrassed and avoiding blame for their actions, given he made a call and is apparently now whimpering about it. Especially since yesterday he seemed upset hed switched and it lost, which everyone expected.
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