PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
Mr. G, it remains a supreme irony that if the SNP had won their referendum Scotland would be out of the EU and England, Wales, and Northern Ireland would be in it.
Morning all and an excellent thread David. I have only lurked in recent weeks because I feared what I might write in response to some of the London-centric Remoaners on this site who have absolutely no idea about the anger in the country outside London and Edinburgh.
I am delighted that the constituency association of Beaconsfield has taken the first step in ditching Dominic Grieve. Although a very clever man he has set his face in opposition to stated government policy, one upon which he stood at the 2017 GE.
Now the others who opposed the PM should be subjected to similar votes and if only the good folks at Rayleigh and Wickford would prick Mark Francois little bubble, that would be great but I fear they will be cheering him on!
Personally my first priority is to get out of the EU. If we can do so on the back of MV4 fine. If not then a No-deal would do because both sides would realise quickly they need a deal. Personally I would bring the Irish to heel by crippling their economy immediately and burst the DUP bubble by announcing a discussion on a united Ireland referendum. Even Arlene Foster would shit herself then.
Just as well I am not PM because I would have all these young knife killers taking a long walk off a wooden platform with a noose around their necks and those caught carrying knives birched!
That's me back off to lurking.
“Personally I would bring the Irish to heel by crippling their economy immediately”
Ah, we have a time traveller from the 17th century.....
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
The DUP aren't my kind of people. They made a big mistake in supporting Leave when the status quo is their friend. They compounded that mistake by throwing their lot in with Tory Brexiteers who don't share their interests. They aren't the wily operators some think them to be. Nevertheless they have acted with principle throughout unlike those Tory Brexiteers who were going to fight to the death against the vassalage of May's Deal only to support it tactically later on. The DUP aren't getting much credit on here from people who have principles, but will find others if they turn out too inconvenient.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
I would like to agree with you, but if there is one thing we have learned from the past 2 years is that from bean to cup, they fuck up.
Grayling will be put in charge of the letter to revoke
The UKIP candidate who stood against Grieve in 2017 orchestrating his deselection in 2019 is an exact mirror image of what has been happening in Labour, where far-left entryists are taking over CLPs. This is all enabled by our ridiculous first past the post voting system.
...which delivered 0.15% of the seats for 13% of the vote for UKIP in 2015, possibly the least fair GE result of all time. But no one cared.
A parliament more representative of the country May have dealt better with the referendum result.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
I suspect May will choose no deal over a compromise. Look at who she is talking to and is influenced by. She has done next to nothing with her left flank. There is no mechanism to remove her in time for April. If she goes for no deal she leaves having delivered Brexit. We will get one more MV and then we will exit. That’s my hunch. Anything else requires taking May out of the equation.
Good luck with that in St. Albans, of all places. Waitrose central.
The only thing I know about St Albans is it was the site of two major battles in the Wars of the Roses, neither of which would have happened if the town had had walls.
Morning all and an excellent thread David. I have only lurked in recent weeks because I feared what I might write in response to some of the London-centric Remoaners on this site who have absolutely no idea about the anger in the country outside London and Edinburgh.
I am delighted that the constituency association of Beaconsfield has taken the first step in ditching Dominic Grieve. Although a very clever man he has set his face in opposition to stated government policy, one upon which he stood at the 2017 GE.
Now the others who opposed the PM should be subjected to similar votes and if only the good folks at Rayleigh and Wickford would prick Mark Francois little bubble, that would be great but I fear they will be cheering him on!
Personally my first priority is to get out of the EU. If we can do so on the back of MV4 fine. If not then a No-deal would do because both sides would realise quickly they need a deal. Personally I would bring the Irish to heel by crippling their economy immediately and burst the DUP bubble by announcing a discussion on a united Ireland referendum. Even Arlene Foster would shit herself then.
Just as well I am not PM because I would have all these young knife killers taking a long walk off a wooden platform with a noose around their necks and those caught carrying knives birched!
That's me back off to lurking.
Is this a misguided attempt at satire? You would cripple the economy of a friendly neighbouring state for no reason whatsoever, an action that would in many eras be considered literally an act of war (economic or otherwise), one we could not hope to win given the international sympathy the Irish have compared to our current sorry isolationism? Irish America would stop any prospect of any sort of deal with the US. Brexit has driven some people mad. Either that or you are a psychopath.
Thank you @david_herdson for the header. I agree with you that a No Deal exit is inevitable now. I have said so for a while. It is extremely sad. The ERG - a group as loathsome, destructive and stupid as Militant Tendency and the Corbynistas - will win and are acting as the Corbynistas’ useful idiots.
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
Morning all and an excellent thread David. I have only lurked in recent weeks because I feared what I might write in response to some of the London-centric Remoaners on this site who have absolutely no idea about the anger in the country outside London and Edinburgh.
I am delighted that the constituency association of Beaconsfield has taken the first step in ditching Dominic Grieve. Although a very clever man he has set his face in opposition to stated government policy, one upon which he stood at the 2017 GE.
Now the others who opposed the PM should be subjected to similar votes and if only the good folks at Rayleigh and Wickford would prick Mark Francois little bubble, that would be great but I fear they will be cheering him on!
Personally my first priority is to get out of the EU. If we can do so on the back of MV4 fine. If not then a No-deal would do because both sides would realise quickly they need a deal. Personally I would bring the Irish to heel by crippling their economy immediately and burst the DUP bubble by announcing a discussion on a united Ireland referendum. Even Arlene Foster would shit herself then.
Just as well I am not PM because I would have all these young knife killers taking a long walk off a wooden platform with a noose around their necks and those caught carrying knives birched!
That's me back off to lurking.
Is this a misguided attempt at satire? You would cripple the economy of a friendly neighbouring state for no reason whatsoever, an action that would in many eras be considered literally an act of war (economic or otherwise), one we could not hope to win given the international sympathy the Irish have compared to our current sorry isolationism? Irish America would stop any prospect of any sort of deal with the US. Brexit has driven some people mad. Either that or you are a psychopath.
Grieve is a genuine old school conservative, but also smart and outward looking. It is shocking that he has no place in today’s Conservative Party, which seems to prefer ideological purity over conservatism. Real Tories need to take a hard look at what is going on and act before it’s too late.
Grieve’s failing is that he has insisted on MPs having a vote. He has been no ruder about the Tory manifesto than Ken Clarke.
Today’s Tory party has been taken over by UKIP. The nasty little rally in Parliament square last night with Farage talking about “enemy territory” and Tommy Robinson ranting about immigrants is where the road the Tories have embarked on leads to.
Grieve's failing is that he voted for A50 and against the WDA.
Thank you @david_herdson for the header. I agree with you that a No Deal exit is inevitable now. I have said so for a while. It is extremely sad. The ERG - a group as loathsome, destructive and stupid as Militant Tendency and the Corbynistas - will win and are acting as the Corbynistas’ useful idiots.
If there is an overwhelming majority against No Deal in Parliament, and the comparatively tiny ERG win -- well them, the blame belongs to the majority who couldn't work together.
They are just as "destructive and stupid" as the ERG.
Morning all and an excellent thread David. I have only lurked in recent weeks because I feared what I might write in response to some of the London-centric Remoaners on this site who have absolutely no idea about the anger in the country outside London and Edinburgh.
I am delighted that the constituency association of Beaconsfield has taken the first step in ditching Dominic Grieve. Although a very clever man he has set his face in opposition to stated government policy, one upon which he stood at the 2017 GE.
Now the others who opposed the PM should be subjected to similar votes and if only the good folks at Rayleigh and Wickford would prick Mark Francois little bubble, that would be great but I fear they will be cheering him on!
Personally my first priority is to get out of the EU. If we can do so on the back of MV4 fine. If not then a No-deal would do because both sides would realise quickly they need a deal. Personally I would bring the Irish to heel by crippling their economy immediately and burst the DUP bubble by announcing a discussion on a united Ireland referendum. Even Arlene Foster would shit herself then.
Just as well I am not PM because I would have all these young knife killers taking a long walk off a wooden platform with a noose around their necks and those caught carrying knives birched!
That's me back off to lurking.
Is this a misguided attempt at satire? You would cripple the economy of a friendly neighbouring state for no reason whatsoever, an action that would in many eras be considered literally an act of war (economic or otherwise), one we could not hope to win given the international sympathy the Irish have compared to our current sorry isolationism? Irish America would stop any prospect of any sort of deal with the US. Brexit has driven some people mad. Either that or you are a psychopath.
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
Astonishing comments. So you’d rather May just forced through anything. I didn’t realize the UK had turned into a dictatorship .
And secondly the suggestion that the WDA could be ratified, if necessary, after No Deal.
The EU specifically ruled out the latter option yesterday in response to yesterday’s vote.
And they're correct. A Withdrawal Agreement can't be implemented after withdrawal. It's a contradiction in terms. Nor can a transition period after the transition has taken place.
Although if we're honest the EU themselves, with their silly pressure on the CJEU to allow unilateral revocation, bear a huge share of blame for what's happening. If they had said revocation required unanimous consent, or was impossible, the Withdrawal Agreement would have passed with ease months ago. Because they tried to find a way to keep us in altogether, they look like forcing the messiest divorce imaginable.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
The current Tory party are governing only for 17.4 million people (well 17.4 million minus those who have changed their mind). The remaining 49,458,910 people in the country are of no interest to them. Fuck them seems to be the new Tory manifesto.
Thank you @david_herdson for the header. I agree with you that a No Deal exit is inevitable now. I have said so for a while. It is extremely sad. The ERG - a group as loathsome, destructive and stupid as Militant Tendency and the Corbynistas - will win and are acting as the Corbynistas’ useful idiots.
What do you have to say about Corbyn whipping all of his MPs to also oppose the deal in all circumstances too then?
If we had just 30-40 Labour MPs breaking ranks on this, this wouldn’t be happening.
Mr. G, it remains a supreme irony that if the SNP had won their referendum Scotland would be out of the EU and England, Wales, and Northern Ireland would be in it.
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
Astonishing comments. So you’d rather May just forced through anything. I didn’t realize the UK had turned into a dictatorship .
It was always accepted until three years ago that international treaties were a matter for the Executive. Therefore Parliament could advise, but not impose, conditions on them. This was for reasons that, to quote Dr Strangelove, are at this moment all too obvious.
Grieve is a genuine old school conservative, but also smart and outward looking. It is shocking that he has no place in today’s Conservative Party, which seems to prefer ideological purity over conservatism. Real Tories need to take a hard look at what is going on and act before it’s too late.
Grieve’s failing is that he has insisted on MPs having a vote. He has been no ruder about the Tory manifesto than Ken Clarke.
Today’s Tory party has been taken over by UKIP. The nasty little rally in Parliament square last night with Farage talking about “enemy territory” and Tommy Robinson ranting about immigrants is where the road the Tories have embarked on leads to.
The rally in the square last night had nothing to do with the Tories.
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
The Prime Minister is the individual that commands the confidence of the majority of the Commons. May has always been answerable to Parliament. Constitutional history didn’t begin in 2016. Indeed, and I’m sure people on here are tired of hearing this, the Leave campaign ran on a slogan of giving Parliament back control.
Mr. G, it remains a supreme irony that if the SNP had won their referendum Scotland would be out of the EU and England, Wales, and Northern Ireland would be in it.
MD , we would have been back in long ago
You would probably have left the UK this coming week. Then you could have applied under Article 49 for membership of the EU, which I suspect would in practice have taken three years to ratify.
And secondly the suggestion that the WDA could be ratified, if necessary, after No Deal.
The EU specifically ruled out the latter option yesterday in response to yesterday’s vote.
And they're correct. A Withdrawal Agreement can't be implemented after withdrawal. It's a contradiction in terms. Nor can a transition period after the transition has taken place.
Although if we're honest the EU themselves, with their silly pressure on the CJEU to allow unilateral revocation, bear a huge share of blame for what's happening. If they had said revocation required unanimous consent, or was impossible, the Withdrawal Agreement would have passed with ease months ago. Because they tried to find a way to keep us in altogether, they look like forcing the messiest divorce imaginable.
I rather got the impression at the time that they were giving us a ladder to enable us to climb out of the hole we had got ourselves into, should we wish to do so.
Thank you @david_herdson for the header. I agree with you that a No Deal exit is inevitable now. I have said so for a while. It is extremely sad. The ERG - a group as loathsome, destructive and stupid as Militant Tendency and the Corbynistas - will win and are acting as the Corbynistas’ useful idiots.
Not sure that No Deal is now inevitable. While lots of angry people want a No Deal, I cannot think of anyone who has or who shares executive responsibility in the UK, Ireland or the EU quite saying that they themselves do. The angry people give an impression of wanting someone else to own the No Deal....just in case. As long as it is still possible to kick the can down the road - and it is - I think those with executive power to do so will in fact do so. Not one of them wishes to own the No Deal. The spectre of the Long Extension has not only been raised as an ogre, it is also a genuine option. We are already getting used to the idea of EU elections.
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
The Prime Minister is the individual that commands the confidence of the majority of the Commons. May has always been answerable to Parliament. Constitutional history didn’t begin in 2016. Indeed, and I’m sure people on here are tired of hearing this, the Leave campaign ran on a slogan of giving Parliament back control.
I don't think they're going to be trying that line again in a hurry!
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
Astonishing comments. So you’d rather May just forced through anything. I didn’t realize the UK had turned into a dictatorship .
Yes, whoever was PM (I thought it would be Cameron at the time) can make deals with other countries without having to get parliamentary approval, and this should be no different. They’re not a dictator if they do that, they’re elected to lead the country and can be thrown out if we don’t like what they’ve done.
And secondly the suggestion that the WDA could be ratified, if necessary, after No Deal.
The EU specifically ruled out the latter option yesterday in response to yesterday’s vote.
And they're correct. A Withdrawal Agreement can't be implemented after withdrawal. It's a contradiction in terms. Nor can a transition period after the transition has taken place.
Although if we're honest the EU themselves, with their silly pressure on the CJEU to allow unilateral revocation, bear a huge share of blame for what's happening. If they had said revocation required unanimous consent, or was impossible, the Withdrawal Agreement would have passed with ease months ago. Because they tried to find a way to keep us in altogether, they look like forcing the messiest divorce imaginable.
What's the evidence that someone put pressure on the CJEU, and who did what specifically?
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
The Prime Minister is the individual that commands the confidence of the majority of the Commons. May has always been answerable to Parliament. Constitutional history didn’t begin in 2016. Indeed, and I’m sure people on here are tired of hearing this, the Leave campaign ran on a slogan of giving Parliament back control.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
The current Tory party are governing only for 17.4 million people (well 17.4 million minus those who have changed their mind). The remaining 49,458,910 people in the country are of no interest to them. Fuck them seems to be the new Tory manifesto.
Miss Cyclefree, I have a fuzzy memory of suspecting May would say, after that revocation judgement, that it was her deal or revocation.
She didn't, of course.
She also didn't say it was her deal or no departure.
Either one could've swayed significant numbers to back her deal, reluctantly. By trying to keep her options open she's been unable to convincingly threaten the hardline supporters of either side.
Absolutely terrible PM. She'll make a fascinating chapter in political history.
Thank you @david_herdson for the header. I agree with you that a No Deal exit is inevitable now. I have said so for a while. It is extremely sad. The ERG - a group as loathsome, destructive and stupid as Militant Tendency and the Corbynistas - will win and are acting as the Corbynistas’ useful idiots.
What do you have to say about Corbyn whipping all of his MPs to also oppose the deal in all circumstances too then?
If we had just 30-40 Labour MPs breaking ranks on this, this wouldn’t be happening.
I have made clear repeatedly my loathing of Corbyn and all his works. He is, IMO and notwithstanding what @NickPalmer has said, in favour of no deal since it allows his socialist nirvana to be enacted. And the Tories have been stupid enough to enable him.
FPT: The Tories are now an unthinkable option for anyone under the age of 108.
They should elect Chope as leader and be done with it, focusing their energies on upskirting and furriner-baiting.
Detoxification lasted 10 years. Well done, Mrs May.
Yet useless as they are the Conservatives lead in the polls.
And do you know why that is ?
Because there's a whole country outside of Hackney.
Indeed. But that’s more a sign of Corbyn’s uselessness than the Conservatives’ strength. I don’t see any great affection for May outside London.
The Tories are exceptionally fortunate that Labour is showing no sign of coming to its senses any time soon.
There's no sign of great affection for ANY politician.
But plenty of signs of various levels of disdain, contempt and hatred for the whole lot of them.
I think that is why the public enthusiasm for TIG, compared to the 1980s surge in new members for the SDP, has so far been relatively muted. Back then, there was real enthusiasm for a new way of politics. Nowadays people have had enough of politics period, and although many would agree things need to change, take more convincing that a new bunch of politicians (or more correctly rebranded current ones) is the answer. Which is a shame, as we are in desperate need of political reform.
And secondly the suggestion that the WDA could be ratified, if necessary, after No Deal.
The EU specifically ruled out the latter option yesterday in response to yesterday’s vote.
And they're correct. A Withdrawal Agreement can't be implemented after withdrawal. It's a contradiction in terms. Nor can a transition period after the transition has taken place.
Although if we're honest the EU themselves, with their silly pressure on the CJEU to allow unilateral revocation, bear a huge share of blame for what's happening. If they had said revocation required unanimous consent, or was impossible, the Withdrawal Agreement would have passed with ease months ago. Because they tried to find a way to keep us in altogether, they look like forcing the messiest divorce imaginable.
I rather got the impression at the time that they were giving us a ladder to enable us to climb out of the hole we had got ourselves into, should we wish to do so.
However well-intentioned, if it was a ladder it has led to a scaffold.
I think what this does also show is just how little understanding European politicians have of British differences from the mainland and how complicated they make this. Martin Selmayr has apparently said that Britain should be forced to withdraw from Northern Ireland so Ireland can be 'reunified as Germany was,' which shows a total lack of understanding of the very different circumstances that apply there and the very real risk that such a move imposed by the EU would cause a civil war.
Admittedly, Selmayr is a man of limited intellect and even more limited self-awareness. But the belief the British all love the EU really and will revoke if they just have a sniff of a chance is equally delusional. What it has done instead is allow those people in the Commons who do hope to remain to vote against the one realistic way forward, with the collusion of Hard Brexiteers who have rightly concluded all they have to do to attain their goal is sit tight.
It does not show anyone in a flattering light, if we're honest. But our parliament still comes out worst of all.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
The current Tory party are governing only for 17.4 million people (well 17.4 million minus those who have changed their mind). The remaining 49,458,910 people in the country are of no interest to them. Fuck them seems to be the new Tory manifesto.
Do you really think that's different to how governments have acted before ?
For example Cameron and Osborne were quite happy to ruin the lives of the young through tuition fees increases and subsidising house prices while bribing the oldies with triple lock pensions and granny bonds.
Grieve is a genuine old school conservative, but also smart and outward looking. It is shocking that he has no place in today’s Conservative Party, which seems to prefer ideological purity over conservatism. Real Tories need to take a hard look at what is going on and act before it’s too late.
Grieve’s failing is that he has insisted on MPs having a vote. He has been no ruder about the Tory manifesto than Ken Clarke.
Today’s Tory party has been taken over by UKIP. The nasty little rally in Parliament square last night with Farage talking about “enemy territory” and Tommy Robinson ranting about immigrants is where the road the Tories have embarked on leads to.
The rally in the square last night had nothing to do with the Tories.
It is where it leads to. The Tories - the ERG wing - are enabling this sort of nastiness.
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
The Prime Minister is the individual that commands the confidence of the majority of the Commons. May has always been answerable to Parliament. Constitutional history didn’t begin in 2016. Indeed, and I’m sure people on here are tired of hearing this, the Leave campaign ran on a slogan of giving Parliament back control.
Taking back control from the EU not the PM
As I say, Parliament controls the PM, it visa versa.
And secondly the suggestion that the WDA could be ratified, if necessary, after No Deal.
The EU specifically ruled out the latter option yesterday in response to yesterday’s vote.
And they're correct. A Withdrawal Agreement can't be implemented after withdrawal. It's a contradiction in terms. Nor can a transition period after the transition has taken place.
Although if we're honest the EU themselves, with their silly pressure on the CJEU to allow unilateral revocation, bear a huge share of blame for what's happening. If they had said revocation required unanimous consent, or was impossible, the Withdrawal Agreement would have passed with ease months ago. Because they tried to find a way to keep us in altogether, they look like forcing the messiest divorce imaginable.
What's the evidence that someone put pressure on the CJEU, and who did what specifically?
The Advocate General, a political appointment, wrote the ruling, which bears no resemblance to anything in the Lisbon Treaty. It was then simply endorsed by the CJEU.
Miss Cyclefree, I have a fuzzy memory of suspecting May would say, after that revocation judgement, that it was her deal or revocation.
She didn't, of course.
She also didn't say it was her deal or no departure.
Either one could've swayed significant numbers to back her deal, reluctantly. By trying to keep her options open she's been unable to convincingly threaten the hardline supporters of either side.
Absolutely terrible PM. She'll make a fascinating chapter in political history.
First the Nazi allusion and then Neville Chamberlain "missed the bus" reference. Give us a "blood, sweat and tears" or a "fight them on the beaches" .... Go on you know you want to ....
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
The current Tory party are governing only for 17.4 million people (well 17.4 million minus those who have changed their mind). The remaining 49,458,910 people in the country are of no interest to them. Fuck them seems to be the new Tory manifesto.
Do you really think that's different to how governments have acted before ?
For example Cameron and Osborne were quite happy to ruin the lives of the young through tuition fees increases and subsidising house prices while bribing the oldies with triple lock pensions and granny bonds.
I have never before heard a party talk about one group as if they represent The People and completely ignore everyone else.
Thank you @david_herdson for the header. I agree with you that a No Deal exit is inevitable now. I have said so for a while. It is extremely sad. The ERG - a group as loathsome, destructive and stupid as Militant Tendency and the Corbynistas - will win and are acting as the Corbynistas’ useful idiots.
What do you have to say about Corbyn whipping all of his MPs to also oppose the deal in all circumstances too then?
If we had just 30-40 Labour MPs breaking ranks on this, this wouldn’t be happening.
And furthermore, if all the Tories had supported yesterday TM would have won without the DUP.
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
The Prime Minister is the individual that commands the confidence of the majority of the Commons. May has always been answerable to Parliament. Constitutional history didn’t begin in 2016. Indeed, and I’m sure people on here are tired of hearing this, the Leave campaign ran on a slogan of giving Parliament back control.
Taking back control from the EU not the PM
As I say, Parliament controls the PM, it visa versa.
So, had Remain won, Cameron’s Deal with the EU would have had to pass Parliament, and if it didn’t we would have remained on pre June 2016 terms?
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
If you ever want to predict what May will do just imagine what she thinks will get her the most favourable headline in The Telegraph the next day. No deal is less of a short term hit for the tories than revoke so that's what she'd do.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
The current Tory party are governing only for 17.4 million people (well 17.4 million minus those who have changed their mind). The remaining 49,458,910 people in the country are of no interest to them. Fuck them seems to be the new Tory manifesto.
Do you really think that's different to how governments have acted before ?
For example Cameron and Osborne were quite happy to ruin the lives of the young through tuition fees increases and subsidising house prices while bribing the oldies with triple lock pensions and granny bonds.
I have never before heard a party talk about one group as if they represent The People and completely ignore everyone else.
Really? I would have said that was how Blair talked all the time about his 35% of voters.
"the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution."
You're right, but unfortunately, nor does the Labour party, and that's why all other options will be voted down. Then you have all the minor parties who believe only in selective democracy.
A hung parliament with a majority of Remainers was always a recipe for disaster and should have had no part in the discussions. Had I been dictator, I would have appointed a group of civil servants with negotiating experience (and no excessive love for either side) to get us the best deal possible.
This pandering to MPs with axes to grind was asking for trouble. They are amateurs, liars, and have the morals of feral tom cats.
Grieve is a genuine old school conservative, but also smart and outward looking. It is shocking that he has no place in today’s Conservative Party, which seems to prefer ideological purity over conservatism. Real Tories need to take a hard look at what is going on and act before it’s too late.
Grieve’s failing is that he has insisted on MPs having a vote. He has been no ruder about the Tory manifesto than Ken Clarke.
Today’s Tory party has been taken over by UKIP. The nasty little rally in Parliament square last night with Farage talking about “enemy territory” and Tommy Robinson ranting about immigrants is where the road the Tories have embarked on leads to.
The rally in the square last night had nothing to do with the Tories.
The ugly strand of intense yet poorly articulated autochthonous rage was completely a creation of the post 2016 tory party.
Own it.
(I did a Casino style coup-de-grâce line at the end just to try it on for size.)
Miss Cyclefree, I have a fuzzy memory of suspecting May would say, after that revocation judgement, that it was her deal or revocation.
She didn't, of course.
She also didn't say it was her deal or no departure.
Either one could've swayed significant numbers to back her deal, reluctantly. By trying to keep her options open she's been unable to convincingly threaten the hardline supporters of either side.
Absolutely terrible PM. She'll make a fascinating chapter in political history.
Worst leader since King John?
You surprise me, Morris.
Was King John really that bad?
Apart from the foreign invasion, the excommunication, the civil war, Magna Carta and losing the his jewels in The Wash, John wasn't a bad ruler.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
The current Tory party are governing only for 17.4 million people (well 17.4 million minus those who have changed their mind). The remaining 49,458,910 people in the country are of no interest to them. Fuck them seems to be the new Tory manifesto.
Do you really think that's different to how governments have acted before ?
For example Cameron and Osborne were quite happy to ruin the lives of the young through tuition fees increases and subsidising house prices while bribing the oldies with triple lock pensions and granny bonds.
I have never before heard a party talk about one group as if they represent The People and completely ignore everyone else.
Really? I would have said that was how Blair talked all the time about his 35% of voters.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
If you ever want to predict what May will do just imagine what she thinks will get her the most favourable headline in The Telegraph the next day. No deal is less of a short term hit for the tories than revoke so that's what she'd do.
Well, the term is about two days, before it actually happens and the government gets crucified by remainers and leavers alike for their incompetent planning.
The danger is that she pulls a Cameron and crashes out, then immediately resigns and leaves some other poor sod to deal with the consequences.
Mr. Punter, here's a short list of John's character flaws: 1) rebelled against his father 2) rebelled against his brother 3) mostly incompetent at war 4) extorted nobles and peasants 5) starved prisoners to death, a barbaric practice even in medieval times, including the odd woman and child 6) slew his nephew 7) lost pretty much all the Angevin Empire's continental possessions 8) lost the esteem of the nobility so much they rebelled and invited the French to invade 9) taunted William Marshal, a venerated warrior who ended up saving the kingdom for John's son 10) had a bad habit of sexually molesting noblewomen
There's probably more, but that's just off the top of my head.
Edited extra bit: Dr. Spyn was quite right to raise the other, mostly different, points above as well.
No deal is by no means inevitable. I still don’t think it will happen. But dear god they are taking it to the wire.
Currency markets unmoved by yesterday's shenanigans.
Agree. Also agree with David Herdson that a WA can be agreed after exit. Art 50's words "Shall negotiate and conclude (a WA)" are not qualified or altered by the 2 year time limit for leaving.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
The current Tory party are governing only for 17.4 million people (well 17.4 million minus those who have changed their mind). The remaining 49,458,910 people in the country are of no interest to them. Fuck them seems to be the new Tory manifesto.
Do you really think that's different to how governments have acted before ?
For example Cameron and Osborne were quite happy to ruin the lives of the young through tuition fees increases and subsidising house prices while bribing the oldies with triple lock pensions and granny bonds.
I have never before heard a party talk about one group as if they represent The People and completely ignore everyone else.
Really? I would have said that was how Blair talked all the time about his 35% of voters.
Not that it's a happy parallel, of course.
Eh? Blair was nothing if not a Centreist.
Seems that left wing rebels are content to stay in the party when a centrist takes charge, but not vice versa
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
Astonishing comments. So you’d rather May just forced through anything. I didn’t realize the UK had turned into a dictatorship .
It was always accepted until three years ago that international treaties were a matter for the Executive. Therefore Parliament could advise, but not impose, conditions on them. This was for reasons that, to quote Dr Strangelove, are at this moment all too obvious.
Yes obvious that the executive should not be allowed to run a bath never mind handle international treaties, we see clearly the shambles they have made of it over 3 years.
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
The Prime Minister is the individual that commands the confidence of the majority of the Commons. May has always been answerable to Parliament. Constitutional history didn’t begin in 2016. Indeed, and I’m sure people on here are tired of hearing this, the Leave campaign ran on a slogan of giving Parliament back control.
Taking back control from the EU not the PM
As I say, Parliament controls the PM, it visa versa.
So, had Remain won, Cameron’s Deal with the EU would have had to pass Parliament, and if it didn’t we would have remained on pre June 2016 terms?
I don’t know. What I do know is that the PM is answerable to Parliament. The executive authority excercised by the PM is delegated from the Crown which is why the PM is appointed by the Queen and not directly elected. We had a civil war and a revolution to demonstrate that the Crown in Parliament is sovereign, not the Crown alone. Such Parliamentary sovereignty is the most basic fact of the constitution. The PM is answerable to Parliament, indeed is a member of that body by convention, and they can tell her to do what they like.
The basic fact is that Parliament was elected, May wasn’t, she was appointed by the Queen as having the confidence of Parliament. That last point is now debatable however.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
The current Tory party are governing only for 17.4 million people (well 17.4 million minus those who have changed their mind). The remaining 49,458,910 people in the country are of no interest to them. Fuck them seems to be the new Tory manifesto.
Do you really think that's different to how governments have acted before ?
For example Cameron and Osborne were quite happy to ruin the lives of the young through tuition fees increases and subsidising house prices while bribing the oldies with triple lock pensions and granny bonds.
I have never before heard a party talk about one group as if they represent The People and completely ignore everyone else.
You know that's not true.
There's always been a strong element of 'people like us, not people like them' in politics.
Perhaps its more electorally obvious or perhaps the bitterness is magnified by social media or perhaps our politicians are of a lower standard or perhaps people find themselves on the opposite side of the line they thought they would be.
The next government will rule for its supporters as they all do. If Jezza is elected PM, will he bear in mind the wishes of the majority who voted against him?
"Oh, I won't go for full socialism, the Tories might not like it."
Excellent article David and the one truth that has become apparent since yesterday, and should have been from the onset, is simply the appalling ineptitude of most of the mps not to realise that all the talk of customs unions, Norway, Canada, etc is a mirage and irrelevant to the brexit deed
The only absolute in all brexit divorce procedings with the EU is the WDA.
TM quite rightly identified this issue and 285 mps voted for it. It is the divorce and anything else, even agreed next week by the HOC, is not part of the WDA.
Any future government can negotiate the future relationship on any combination they want and completely ignore anything that may be amended to the political declaration in the next few weeks
The reality is we leave with a WDA or we remain, and nothing else matters
Grieve is a genuine old school conservative, but also smart and outward looking. It is shocking that he has no place in today’s Conservative Party, which seems to prefer ideological purity over conservatism. Real Tories need to take a hard look at what is going on and act before it’s too late.
Grieve’s failing is that he has insisted on MPs having a vote. He has been no ruder about the Tory manifesto than Ken Clarke.
Today’s Tory party has been taken over by UKIP. The nasty little rally in Parliament square last night with Farage talking about “enemy territory” and Tommy Robinson ranting about immigrants is where the road the Tories have embarked on leads to.
The rally in the square last night had nothing to do with the Tories.
The ugly strand of intense yet poorly articulated autochthonous rage was completely a creation of the post 2016 tory party.
Own it.
(I did a Casino style coup-de-grâce line at the end just to try it on for size.)
Grieve is a loss to the Tories, but he does not represent their voters or the Govt policy on the main issue of the day. I'm afraid he is as I'll suited to those who elected him on this matter as Kate Hoey is to hers, I'd have probably votes for his deselection last night were I a Beaconsfield Tory. I would vote to keep Boles or Letwin in place.
Thank you @david_herdson for the header. I agree with you that a No Deal exit is inevitable now. I have said so for a while. It is extremely sad. The ERG - a group as loathsome, destructive and stupid as Militant Tendency and the Corbynistas - will win and are acting as the Corbynistas’ useful idiots.
Not sure that No Deal is now inevitable. While lots of angry people want a No Deal, I cannot think of anyone who has or who shares executive responsibility in the UK, Ireland or the EU quite saying that they themselves do. The angry people give an impression of wanting someone else to own the No Deal....just in case. As long as it is still possible to kick the can down the road - and it is - I think those with executive power to do so will in fact do so. Not one of them wishes to own the No Deal. The spectre of the Long Extension has not only been raised as an ogre, it is also a genuine option. We are already getting used to the idea of EU elections.
No politican currently wants to own the European elections that are unavoidable if we don’t fall into no deal in 13 days time
Mr. Punter, here's a short list of John's character flaws: 1) rebelled against his father 2) rebelled against his brother 3) mostly incompetent at war 4) extorted nobles and peasants 5) starved prisoners to death, a barbaric practice even in medieval times, including the odd woman and child 6) slew his nephew 7) lost pretty much all the Angevin Empire's continental possessions 8) lost the esteem of the nobility so much they rebelled and invited the French to invade 9) taunted William Marshal, a venerated warrior who ended up saving the kingdom for John's son 10) had a bad habit of sexually molesting noblewomen
There's probably more, but that's just off the top of my head.
Edited extra bit: Dr. Spyn was quite right to raise the other, mostly different, points above as well.
I see. Not good, but not as bad as Mrs May then.......?
I jest, of course. But it was a serious question. I had thought John had been the subject of a certain amount of revisionism, but am glad to be corrected.
Btw, I really enjoy the educational history posts on here, particularly your own. Take a bow, young man!
Grieve is a loss to the Tories, but he does not represent their voters or the Govt policy on the main issue of the day. I'm afraid he is as I'll suited to those who elected him on this matter as Kate Hoey is to hers, I'd have probably votes for his deselection last night were I a Beaconsfield Tory. I would vote to keep Boles or Letwin in place.
First the Nazi allusion and then Neville Chamberlain "missed the bus" reference. Give us a "blood, sweat and tears" or a "fight them on the beaches" .... Go on you know you want to ....
Jack, I am amazed they have not come out with them so far, they are definitely not right in the head.
Thank you @david_herdson for the header. I agree with you that a No Deal exit is inevitable now. I have said so for a while. It is extremely sad. The ERG - a group as loathsome, destructive and stupid as Militant Tendency and the Corbynistas - will win and are acting as the Corbynistas’ useful idiots.
Not sure that No Deal is now inevitable. While lots of angry people want a No Deal, I cannot think of anyone who has or who shares executive responsibility in the UK, Ireland or the EU quite saying that they themselves do. The angry people give an impression of wanting someone else to own the No Deal....just in case. As long as it is still possible to kick the can down the road - and it is - I think those with executive power to do so will in fact do so. Not one of them wishes to own the No Deal. The spectre of the Long Extension has not only been raised as an ogre, it is also a genuine option. We are already getting used to the idea of EU elections.
No politican currently wants to own the European elections that are unavoidable if we don’t fall into no deal in 13 days time
Of things to worry about, elections are well down my list.
Grieve is a genuine old school conservative, but also smart and outward looking. It is shocking that he has no place in today’s Conservative Party, which seems to prefer ideological purity over conservatism. Real Tories need to take a hard look at what is going on and act before it’s too late.
“Ideological purity” = “Mainfesto on which he was elected”
Grieve has not (yet) been de-selected - and if he turns out to be one of the unintended handmaidens of No Deal Brexit May not be....
And on what date was that manifesto published and on what date did the election campaign begin?
If Dominic Grieve was the person responsible for MP’s having the final say on Brexit, then he is the person responsible for the chaos we are in and deserves to be punished.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
The Prime Minister is the individual that commands the confidence of the majority of the Commons. May has always been answerable to Parliament. Constitutional history didn’t begin in 2016. Indeed, and I’m sure people on here are tired of hearing this, the Leave campaign ran on a slogan of giving Parliament back control.
Taking back control from the EU not the PM
As I say, Parliament controls the PM, it visa versa.
So, had Remain won, Cameron’s Deal with the EU would have had to pass Parliament, and if it didn’t we would have remained on pre June 2016 terms?
I don’t know. What I do know is that the PM is answerable to Parliament. The executive authority excercised by the PM is delegated from the Crown which is why the PM is appointed by the Queen and not directly elected. We had a civil war and a revolution to demonstrate that the Crown in Parliament is sovereign, not the Crown alone. Such Parliamentary sovereignty is the most basic fact of the constitution. The PM is answerable to Parliament, indeed is a member of that body by convention, and they can tell her to do what they like.
The basic fact is that Parliament was elected, May wasn’t, she was appointed by the Queen as having the confidence of Parliament. That last point is now debatable however.
But why does Mays deal, agreed with the EU, have to get parliamentary approval when Cameron’s renegotiation didn’t?
You could say as Cameron put his Deal to the people, so should have May (without parliamentary approval) in a referendum between her Deal and no deal (Cameron’s Deal/Remain having been eliminated in 2016). That’s fair enough.
And secondly the suggestion that the WDA could be ratified, if necessary, after No Deal.
The EU specifically ruled out the latter option yesterday in response to yesterday’s vote.
And they're correct. A Withdrawal Agreement can't be implemented after withdrawal. It's a contradiction in terms. Nor can a transition period after the transition has taken place.
Although if we're honest the EU themselves, with their silly pressure on the CJEU to allow unilateral revocation, bear a huge share of blame for what's happening. If they had said revocation required unanimous consent, or was impossible, the Withdrawal Agreement would have passed with ease months ago. Because they tried to find a way to keep us in altogether, they look like forcing the messiest divorce imaginable.
What's the evidence that someone put pressure on the CJEU, and who did what specifically?
The Advocate General, a political appointment, wrote the ruling, which bears no resemblance to anything in the Lisbon Treaty. It was then simply endorsed by the CJEU.
I don't think the Advocate General is a political appointment particularly - the standard process of the court making a decision involves their recommendation, so it's not like them making a recommendation is leaning on the court. And the court didn't accept it as is, they changed parts of it.
Mr. Punter, here's a short list of John's character flaws: 1) rebelled against his father 2) rebelled against his brother 3) mostly incompetent at war 4) extorted nobles and peasants 5) starved prisoners to death, a barbaric practice even in medieval times, including the odd woman and child 6) slew his nephew 7) lost pretty much all the Angevin Empire's continental possessions 8) lost the esteem of the nobility so much they rebelled and invited the French to invade 9) taunted William Marshal, a venerated warrior who ended up saving the kingdom for John's son 10) had a bad habit of sexually molesting noblewomen
There's probably more, but that's just off the top of my head.
Edited extra bit: Dr. Spyn was quite right to raise the other, mostly different, points above as well.
PBers appear to be split into two camps - those who think there is a strong chance we will leave with No Deal and those who think it cannot happen.
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
The trouble is - as Lewis just demonstrated on R4 - the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution.
The current Tory party are governing only for 17.4 million people (well 17.4 million minus those who have changed their mind). The remaining 49,458,910 people in the country are of no interest to them. Fuck them seems to be the new Tory manifesto.
Do you really think that's different to how governments have acted before ?
For example Cameron and Osborne were quite happy to ruin the lives of the young through tuition fees increases and subsidising house prices while bribing the oldies with triple lock pensions and granny bonds.
I have never before heard a party talk about one group as if they represent The People and completely ignore everyone else.
Really? I would have said that was how Blair talked all the time about his 35% of voters.
Not that it's a happy parallel, of course.
Ah yes - there was that silly speech about Labour being the political wing of the whole British people. Nonsense on stilts. But he was trying - however vaingloriously - to reach out. May seeks to exclude not include. The 17.4 million have been elevated to a Golden Calf to be worshipped.
Mr. Punter, here's a short list of John's character flaws: 1) rebelled against his father 2) rebelled against his brother 3) mostly incompetent at war 4) extorted nobles and peasants 5) starved prisoners to death, a barbaric practice even in medieval times, including the odd woman and child 6) slew his nephew 7) lost pretty much all the Angevin Empire's continental possessions 8) lost the esteem of the nobility so much they rebelled and invited the French to invade 9) taunted William Marshal, a venerated warrior who ended up saving the kingdom for John's son 10) had a bad habit of sexually molesting noblewomen
There's probably more, but that's just off the top of my head.
Edited extra bit: Dr. Spyn was quite right to raise the other, mostly different, points above as well.
8) looks a fairly statesmanlike move atm. Perhaps JackW could do the honours?
Comments
For what it's worth I'm in the latter camp - even if May is so stupid as to be prepared to go along with No Deal I believe there are enough in cabinet to grab hold of the steering wheel and swerve to Revoke at the last minute if necessary.
However, I don't think we will get there - a compromise deal with CU and-or confirmatory referendum should pass.
Ah, we have a time traveller from the 17th century.....
Grayling will be put in charge of the letter to revoke
A parliament more representative of the country May have dealt better with the referendum result.
If you were going to choose just one party...
And do you know why that is ?
Because there's a whole country outside of Hackney.
Firstly that May's Deal is also the EU's Deal.
And secondly the suggestion that the WDA could be ratified, if necessary, after No Deal.
Or possibly because of Corbyn.
One or the other.
The referendum wasn’t about MPs taking back control from the PM.
The manifesto will be interesting though
The Tories are exceptionally fortunate that Labour is showing no sign of coming to its senses any time soon.
Ken Clarke did the opposite.
They are just as "destructive and stupid" as the ERG.
Although if we're honest the EU themselves, with their silly pressure on the CJEU to allow unilateral revocation, bear a huge share of blame for what's happening. If they had said revocation required unanimous consent, or was impossible, the Withdrawal Agreement would have passed with ease months ago. Because they tried to find a way to keep us in altogether, they look like forcing the messiest divorce imaginable.
But plenty of signs of various levels of disdain, contempt and hatred for the whole lot of them.
If we had just 30-40 Labour MPs breaking ranks on this, this wouldn’t be happening.
If a fear arises in the PCP of a purge, might that not fuel significant defections to CUTIG?
https://twitter.com/jonholmes1/status/1111898308249878528
Ken: Do you know who this looks like?
Taking back control from the EU not the PM
She didn't, of course.
She also didn't say it was her deal or no departure.
Either one could've swayed significant numbers to back her deal, reluctantly. By trying to keep her options open she's been unable to convincingly threaten the hardline supporters of either side.
Absolutely terrible PM. She'll make a fascinating chapter in political history.
Worst leader since King John?
I think what this does also show is just how little understanding European politicians have of British differences from the mainland and how complicated they make this. Martin Selmayr has apparently said that Britain should be forced to withdraw from Northern Ireland so Ireland can be 'reunified as Germany was,' which shows a total lack of understanding of the very different circumstances that apply there and the very real risk that such a move imposed by the EU would cause a civil war.
Admittedly, Selmayr is a man of limited intellect and even more limited self-awareness. But the belief the British all love the EU really and will revoke if they just have a sniff of a chance is equally delusional. What it has done instead is allow those people in the Commons who do hope to remain to vote against the one realistic way forward, with the collusion of Hard Brexiteers who have rightly concluded all they have to do to attain their goal is sit tight.
It does not show anyone in a flattering light, if we're honest. But our parliament still comes out worst of all.
For example Cameron and Osborne were quite happy to ruin the lives of the young through tuition fees increases and subsidising house prices while bribing the oldies with triple lock pensions and granny bonds.
Was King John really that bad?
First the Nazi allusion and then Neville Chamberlain "missed the bus" reference. Give us a "blood, sweat and tears" or a "fight them on the beaches" .... Go on you know you want to ....
Not that it's a happy parallel, of course.
Boris Johnson is losing the true believers.
Have a good morning.
Currency markets unmoved by yesterday's shenanigans.
"the Tories simply can't bear the idea that any other party should have a hand in the solution."
You're right, but unfortunately, nor does the Labour party, and that's why all other options will be voted down. Then you have all the minor parties who believe only in selective democracy.
A hung parliament with a majority of Remainers was always a recipe for disaster and should have had no part in the discussions. Had I been dictator, I would have appointed a group of civil servants with negotiating experience (and no excessive love for either side) to get us the best deal possible.
This pandering to MPs with axes to grind was asking for trouble. They are amateurs, liars, and have the morals of feral tom cats.
The people were asked to decide, not the MPs.
Own it.
(I did a Casino style coup-de-grâce line at the end just to try it on for size.)
The danger is that she pulls a Cameron and crashes out, then immediately resigns and leaves some other poor sod to deal with the consequences.
1) rebelled against his father
2) rebelled against his brother
3) mostly incompetent at war
4) extorted nobles and peasants
5) starved prisoners to death, a barbaric practice even in medieval times, including the odd woman and child
6) slew his nephew
7) lost pretty much all the Angevin Empire's continental possessions
8) lost the esteem of the nobility so much they rebelled and invited the French to invade
9) taunted William Marshal, a venerated warrior who ended up saving the kingdom for John's son
10) had a bad habit of sexually molesting noblewomen
There's probably more, but that's just off the top of my head.
Edited extra bit: Dr. Spyn was quite right to raise the other, mostly different, points above as well.
The basic fact is that Parliament was elected, May wasn’t, she was appointed by the Queen as having the confidence of Parliament. That last point is now debatable however.
There's always been a strong element of 'people like us, not people like them' in politics.
Perhaps its more electorally obvious or perhaps the bitterness is magnified by social media or perhaps our politicians are of a lower standard or perhaps people find themselves on the opposite side of the line they thought they would be.
The next government will rule for its supporters as they all do. If Jezza is elected PM, will he bear in mind the wishes of the majority who voted against him?
"Oh, I won't go for full socialism, the Tories might not like it."
The only absolute in all brexit divorce procedings with the EU is the WDA.
TM quite rightly identified this issue and 285 mps voted for it. It is the divorce and anything else, even agreed next week by the HOC, is not part of the WDA.
Any future government can negotiate the future relationship on any combination they want and completely ignore anything that may be amended to the political declaration in the next few weeks
The reality is we leave with a WDA or we remain, and nothing else matters
I jest, of course. But it was a serious question. I had thought John had been the subject of a certain amount of revisionism, but am glad to be corrected.
Btw, I really enjoy the educational history posts on here, particularly your own. Take a bow, young man!
You could say as Cameron put his Deal to the people, so should have May (without parliamentary approval) in a referendum between her Deal and no deal (Cameron’s Deal/Remain having been eliminated in 2016). That’s fair enough.
12) Closet Vegan
13) Shocking carbon footprint