...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
If the public refuse to ratify the new deal, then HMG must either a) revoke, b) extend, c) do a new new deal, or d) exit with no deal. A) is politically appalling, b) and c) may be rejected by the EU, and d) would be the only one left.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Where in the legislation setting up the referendum did it say it would be acted upon?
It appears that Labour have successfully hoodwinked the second ref brigade into believing that their proposal is an actual second referendum. Got to hand it to them!
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
If the public refuse to ratify the new deal, then HMG must either a) revoke, b) extend, c) do a new new deal, or d) exit with no deal. A) is politically appalling, b) and c) may be rejected by the EU, and d) would be the only one left.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
If the public refuse to ratify the new deal, then HMG must either a) revoke, b) extend, c) do a new new deal, or d) exit with no deal. A) is politically appalling, b) and c) may be rejected by the EU, and d) would be the only one left.
No no no no ...
The ratification vote will be:
Should the UK...
Leave the EU with this deal or Remain in the EU
Where does it say that?
The proposal is "leave the EU with this deal? Y/N"
Boris hinting he'll vote for the WA if May agrees to go.
Which further proves that Boris is an unprincipled chancer willing to sacrifice the national interest for his own personal advancement. Either the deal is in the national interest, in which case he should support it. Or it is not, in which case he should oppose it. The identity of the PM has no bearing on the acceptability of the deal.
Hold the front page
" Boris is an unprincipled chancer " We never knew
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Where in the legislation setting up the referendum did it say it would be acted upon?
Sent out in the Gov't leaflet to every household before purdah "This is your decision, the Gov't will implement it".
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Where in the legislation setting up the referendum did it say it would be acted upon?
That comment sums it up really. A profound misreading of the relationship between parliament and the people by reducing it to that of a dodgy salesman exploiting a gullible pensioner.
The power of government to duck the hard choices facing the country has simply moved to MPs who are doing their best to duck the same hard choices. Bercow could force MPs back to reality but does he have the political capital to be able to do so, when so many are in denial?
Revocation is looking increasingly sensible.
The country already made the hard choice. So has the government to a degree... parliament is making the easy choice of ignoring it and hoping it will go away, like a smoker deciding not to give up after the doctor told him to... it will catch up with them in the end
The hard choice was made in 1975 which you choose to ignore.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
If the public refuse to ratify the new deal, then HMG must either a) revoke, b) extend, c) do a new new deal, or d) exit with no deal. A) is politically appalling, b) and c) may be rejected by the EU, and d) would be the only one left.
No no no no ...
The ratification vote will be:
Should the UK...
Leave the EU with this deal or Remain in the EU
Where does it say that?
Clearly it should be leave with or without the deal; the decision to leave has already been made.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Totally agree - they are all an abject failure to our nation
The power of government to duck the hard choices facing the country has simply moved to MPs who are doing their best to duck the same hard choices. Bercow could force MPs back to reality but does he have the political capital to be able to do so, when so many are in denial?
Revocation is looking increasingly sensible.
The country already made the hard choice. So has the government to a degree... parliament is making the easy choice of ignoring it and hoping it will go away, like a smoker deciding not to give up after the doctor told him to... it will catch up with them in the end
The hard choice was made in 1975 which you choose to ignore.
"Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?"
Extending Kyle/Wilson to make *any* form of Brexit contingent on a second referendum must surely reduce its appeal.
The Brexits on offer are already of the lite, vegetarian and vegan varieties. Parliament won't allow the 3000 calorie full english cooked in a vat of lard on the basis it might clog our arteries.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Where in the legislation setting up the referendum did it say it would be acted upon?
It is a convention in this country, and most successful societies, families or firms, that promises are kept. The government promised the result of the referendum would be enacted.
The number of Liberal Democrat MPs returned in the 2015 election shows what happens when politicians adopt a carefree attitude to solemn commitments. The public don’t like it.
Extending Kyle/Wilson to make *any* form of Brexit contingent on a second referendum must surely reduce its appeal.
Yeah, surely they were hoping for government support in order to get the WA over the line. Without that it's a weird yes/no question on some undefined deal. I'm not sure if the MPs are that idiotic, though I'm sure they will prove me wrong.
Ffsake 2nd ref is now being labelled as "confirmatory"...
If Corbyn wins the next GE do we get a confirmatory referendum where he 'll need over 50% to approve him getting in ? Obviously the alteirnative is the Tory status quo.
The idea a second referendum will feature in any GE post 12th April assumes we will have sitting MEPs
Which the public may not like. But politicians do. They like elections. They also like well-paid jobs for the party faithful. Not convinced it is an insurmountable hurdle. Besides. If we are still in, we should have representatives. To not have would be the worst of all outcomes.
I agree but it is how the EU elections are mandated by the HOC by the 12th April
Expect fireworks once the public realise what is happening
The power of government to duck the hard choices facing the country has simply moved to MPs who are doing their best to duck the same hard choices. Bercow could force MPs back to reality but does he have the political capital to be able to do so, when so many are in denial?
Revocation is looking increasingly sensible.
The country already made the hard choice. So has the government to a degree... parliament is making the easy choice of ignoring it and hoping it will go away, like a smoker deciding not to give up after the doctor told him to... it will catch up with them in the end
The hard choice was made in 1975 which you choose to ignore.
Not allowed to change our minds? An odd stance to take.
Begs the question what's Malthouse Compromise Plan B?
One in a series of airport novels. Titles in the series include:
Malthouse Compromise Chequers Plan Letwin Amendment Norway Option
Harry Potter and the ...goes before all of them. In which our intrepid band of MPs come up with ever more incredible wheezes to ensure they are defeated...
Off-topic:
Many years ago, Mrs J and I realised that you could replace the last word in every title of the Harry Potter series with the word 'cum' and get a very different set of books: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's ... Harry Potter and the Chamber of ... Harry Potter and the Prisoner of ... Harry Potter and the Goblet of ... Harry Potter and the Order of the ... Harry Potter and the Half-Blood ... Harry Potter and the Deathly ...
Although some work better with the word in the middle: for instance, 'Harry Potter and the Cum of the Phoenix' is a rather mind-boggling title ...
I've just laughed so much that my skull aches!
The Goblet of Cum sounds like the sort of thing you'd be offered at one of Caligula's parties.
As it happens, there's a huge cottage industry of fanfics dedicated to pornographic "reinterpretations" of Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Frozen, My Little Pony etc.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Well said. Come the next election it will be time to vote accordingly... We'll have our day of reckoning.
The HOC has to agree a brexit that commands majority support in the HOC but that is also able to meet the 12th April deadline
TM deal, (or similar), and no deal are the only relative straight forward ones
The rest including revoke, anthing with a referendum, or a GE requires the HOC to mandate the UK EU elections, starting on the 12th April as confirmed by Mark Stone, Sky's Europe editor, today
So in 17 days we have to have reach a majority agreement for a course of action, some complicated by the EU elections, and pass relevant legislation to enact the decision
No deal or TM deal still remain the most likely by the 12th April
#CCU replaces dead as a Do Do Deal tomorrow night IMO
I feel like the poor dodo gets overmentioned as far as extinct, flightless birds go. Perhaps it could be dead as a great auk instead?
The power of government to duck the hard choices facing the country has simply moved to MPs who are doing their best to duck the same hard choices. Bercow could force MPs back to reality but does he have the political capital to be able to do so, when so many are in denial?
Revocation is looking increasingly sensible.
The country already made the hard choice. So has the government to a degree... parliament is making the easy choice of ignoring it and hoping it will go away, like a smoker deciding not to give up after the doctor told him to... it will catch up with them in the end
The hard choice was made in 1975 which you choose to ignore.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Where in the legislation setting up the referendum did it say it would be acted upon?
That comment sums it up really. A profound misreading of the relationship between parliament and the people by reducing it to that of a dodgy salesman exploiting a gullible pensioner.
It is perfectly legitimate to point out that legally there was no commitment, but equally it is pretty silly to pretend that therefore it should be easy or simple to disregard the referendum. Revokers and remainers have always known this, hence why for a long time plenty pretended they were not seeking remain all along, and why even now when people are honest about such things, most are still seeking the cover of an additional democratic mandate to counter that of the 2016 vote - because they are not so blase as to act like the lack of legal obligation is irrelevant, even though the argument many use, that any leave is terrible, would suggest that revocation should be used if that is how they feel, and face the consequenes at a GE, rather than risk any form of deal at a referendum again.
Begs the question what's Malthouse Compromise Plan B?
One in a series of airport novels. Titles in the series include:
Malthouse Compromise Chequers Plan Letwin Amendment Norway Option
Harry Potter and the ...goes before all of them. In which our intrepid band of MPs come up with ever more incredible wheezes to ensure they are defeated...
Off-topic:
Many years ago, Mrs J and I realised that you could replace the last word in every title of the Harry Potter series with the word 'cum' and get a very different set of books: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's ... Harry Potter and the Chamber of ... Harry Potter and the Prisoner of ... Harry Potter and the Goblet of ... Harry Potter and the Order of the ... Harry Potter and the Half-Blood ... Harry Potter and the Deathly ...
Although some work better with the word in the middle: for instance, 'Harry Potter and the Cum of the Phoenix' is a rather mind-boggling title ...
I've just laughed so much that my skull aches!
The Goblet of Cum sounds like the sort of thing you'd be offered at one of Caligula's parties.
As it happens, there's a huge cottage industry of fanfics dedicated to pornographic "reinterpretations" of Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Frozen, My Little Pony etc.
To the extent that plenty of people assume any fanfiction is sexual in nature.
I'm sure I heard of a popular Harry Potter fanfic which is literally longer than the series itself, which is impressive given it is not a short series.
Extending Kyle/Wilson to make *any* form of Brexit contingent on a second referendum must surely reduce its appeal.
Yeah, surely they were hoping for government support in order to get the WA over the line. Without that it's a weird yes/no question on some undefined deal. I'm not sure if the MPs are that idiotic, though I'm sure they will prove me wrong.
Labour knows the main effect of revocation or any sort of referendum will be to absolubtely crucify the Tories. Hence why they're pushing it !
Boris hinting he'll vote for the WA if May agrees to go.
Which further proves that Boris is an unprincipled chancer willing to sacrifice the national interest for his own personal advancement. Either the deal is in the national interest, in which case he should support it. Or it is not, in which case he should oppose it. The identity of the PM has no bearing on the acceptability of the deal.
Hold the front page
" Boris is an unprincipled chancer " We never knew
Well I agree it's hardly news. But it remains incredible that many Tories believe that such an appalling and manifestly unsuitable character is a serious candidate for PM.
The power of government to duck the hard choices facing the country has simply moved to MPs who are doing their best to duck the same hard choices.
Hang on, at least let them have the votes first, at least there's a plan to move from straight votes to whatever ranking preference plan they're coming up with to try and find some sort of consensus.
May doesn't do consensus. Corbyn doesn't do consensus. The SNP doesn't do consensus.
Ranking unicorns by height won't solve anything.
Does one rank unicorns by height with or without the horn?
You measure to the withers I believe, so without the horn.
Besides, judging by height is ridiculous, since proper unicorn judgement should be on the ostentatiousness of the horn alone. All about that horn.
Begs the question what's Malthouse Compromise Plan B?
One in a series of airport novels. Titles in the series include:
Malthouse Compromise Chequers Plan Letwin Amendment Norway Option
Harry Potter and the ...goes before all of them. In which our intrepid band of MPs come up with ever more incredible wheezes to ensure they are defeated...
Off-topic:
Many years ago, Mrs J and I realised that you could replace the last word in every title of the Harry Potter series with the word 'cum' and get a very different set of books: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's ... Harry Potter and the Chamber of ... Harry Potter and the Prisoner of ... Harry Potter and the Goblet of ... Harry Potter and the Order of the ... Harry Potter and the Half-Blood ... Harry Potter and the Deathly ...
Although some work better with the word in the middle: for instance, 'Harry Potter and the Cum of the Phoenix' is a rather mind-boggling title ...
I've just laughed so much that my skull aches!
The Goblet of Cum sounds like the sort of thing you'd be offered at one of Caligula's parties.
As it happens, there's a huge cottage industry of fanfics dedicated to pornographic "reinterpretations" of Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Frozen, My Little Pony etc.
To the extent that plenty of people assume any fanfiction is sexual in nature.
I'm sure I heard of a popular Harry Potter fanfic which is literally longer than the series itself, which is impressive given it is not a short series.
Harry Potter And The Methods of Rationality is an enormous fanfic, which quite a few people prefer to the original.
Most fanfic (of any genre) is horrible, but a small percentage is very good, and another small percentage is so bad it's good.
Extending Kyle/Wilson to make *any* form of Brexit contingent on a second referendum must surely reduce its appeal.
Yeah, surely they were hoping for government support in order to get the WA over the line. Without that it's a weird yes/no question on some undefined deal. I'm not sure if the MPs are that idiotic, though I'm sure they will prove me wrong.
Labour knows the main effect of revocation or any sort of referendum will be to absolubtely crucify the Tories. Hence why they're pushing it !
But that's why the government will never revoke. I'd stop being a Tory voter the next minute along with 80% of the rest of them.
Anyway, the proposal is a yes/no on the deal question not deal/remain. A no vote simply brings us back to this point.
Extending Kyle/Wilson to make *any* form of Brexit contingent on a second referendum must surely reduce its appeal.
Presumably, although once you've considered the point that a deal will need 'confirmation' I don't see how one justifies disagreeing with 'confirming' any deal. They haven't done the former yet, of course.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Totally agree - they are all an abject failure to our nation
This is all a making of Tory party internal politics...one of the most disingenuous statements is to bring other parties into it like they have equal culpability....
The Tories got into this mess..they need to get us out, and not at the expense of making poor people poorer/ or our public services worse funded...
Begs the question what's Malthouse Compromise Plan B?
One in a series of airport novels. Titles in the series include:
Malthouse Compromise Chequers Plan Letwin Amendment Norway Option
Harry Potter and the ...goes before all of them. In which our intrepid band of MPs come up with ever more incredible wheezes to ensure they are defeated...
Off-topic:
Many years ago, Mrs J and I realised that you could replace the last word in every title of the Harry Potter series with the word 'cum' and get a very different set of books: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's ... Harry Potter and the Chamber of ... Harry Potter and the Prisoner of ... Harry Potter and the Goblet of ... Harry Potter and the Order of the ... Harry Potter and the Half-Blood ... Harry Potter and the Deathly ...
Although some work better with the word in the middle: for instance, 'Harry Potter and the Cum of the Phoenix' is a rather mind-boggling title ...
I've just laughed so much that my skull aches!
The Goblet of Cum sounds like the sort of thing you'd be offered at one of Caligula's parties.
As it happens, there's a huge cottage industry of fanfics dedicated to pornographic "reinterpretations" of Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Frozen, My Little Pony etc.
To the extent that plenty of people assume any fanfiction is sexual in nature.
I'm sure I heard of a popular Harry Potter fanfic which is literally longer than the series itself, which is impressive given it is not a short series.
Harry Potter And The Methods of Rationality is an enormous fanfic, which quite a few people prefer to the original.
Most fanfic (of any genre) is horrible, but a small percentage is very good, and another small percentage is so bad it's good.
Boris hinting he'll vote for the WA if May agrees to go.
Which further proves that Boris is an unprincipled chancer willing to sacrifice the national interest for his own personal advancement. Either the deal is in the national interest, in which case he should support it. Or it is not, in which case he should oppose it. The identity of the PM has no bearing on the acceptability of the deal.
Hold the front page
" Boris is an unprincipled chancer " We never knew
Well I agree it's hardly news. But it remains incredible that many Tories believe that such an appalling and manifestly unsuitable character is a serious candidate for PM.
Given the way Parliament is behaving towards the people why shouldn't we have an "appalling and unsuitable" character as PM? Why not Boris? Why not Jezza? Why not Farage?
Nothing can be any worse than the betrayal Parliament is inflicting at the moment so yeah... Whatever the consequences are that flow from what it currently going on, the establishment will just have to suck it up.
And I would say things can and probably will get a lot worse than Boris Johnson being Prime Minister in the end.
Ffsake 2nd ref is now being labelled as "confirmatory"...
If Corbyn wins the next GE do we get a confirmatory referendum where he 'll need over 50% to approve him getting in ? Obviously the alteirnative is the Tory status quo.
The idea a second referendum will feature in any GE post 12th April assumes we will have sitting MEPs
Which the public may not like. But politicians do. They like elections. They also like well-paid jobs for the party faithful. Not convinced it is an insurmountable hurdle. Besides. If we are still in, we should have representatives. To not have would be the worst of all outcomes.
I agree but it is how the EU elections are mandated by the HOC by the 12th April
Expect fireworks once the public realise what is happening
And of course your last sentence cannot happen
I do wonder how many have twigged we are not leaving on Friday yet? That Rubicon has been crossed with relatively little fuss. Suspect all other rivers may be forded a little easier now. It really is mind-boggling that it is March 26 and we still have no clue what is happening.
Why on God's green earth is Huw Merriman supporting Kyle-Wilson, I haven't seen him remain-rebel in any divisions so far.
I predicted earlier (half-joking) that we might soon see some Tories hoping for the Kyle/Wilson referendum between May's Deal and Remain. If they realise that May's deal is the hardest Brexit on offer, and that even that will only go through with a referendum clause.
Extending Kyle/Wilson to make *any* form of Brexit contingent on a second referendum must surely reduce its appeal.
Yeah, surely they were hoping for government support in order to get the WA over the line. Without that it's a weird yes/no question on some undefined deal. I'm not sure if the MPs are that idiotic, though I'm sure they will prove me wrong.
Labour knows the main effect of revocation or any sort of referendum will be to absolubtely crucify the Tories. Hence why they're pushing it !
Sure, but all but six Tories will vote against (and probably more Labour MP's would vote against than Tories vote in favour). Both motions seem likely to get the Tories off the hook. Either they'll be defeated, or they'll pass in the face of United Tory opposition, and a very weak Labour government will have to try to implement them.
Begs the question what's Malthouse Compromise Plan B?
One in a series of airport novels. Titles in the series include:
Malthouse Compromise Chequers Plan Letwin Amendment Norway Option
Harry Potter and the ...goes before all of them. In which our intrepid band of MPs come up with ever more incredible wheezes to ensure they are defeated...
Off-topic:
Many years ago, Mrs J and I realised that you could replace the last word in every title of the Harry Potter series with the word 'cum' and get a very different set of books: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's ... Harry Potter and the Chamber of ... Harry Potter and the Prisoner of ... Harry Potter and the Goblet of ... Harry Potter and the Order of the ... Harry Potter and the Half-Blood ... Harry Potter and the Deathly ...
Although some work better with the word in the middle: for instance, 'Harry Potter and the Cum of the Phoenix' is a rather mind-boggling title ...
I've just laughed so much that my skull aches!
The Goblet of Cum sounds like the sort of thing you'd be offered at one of Caligula's parties.
As it happens, there's a huge cottage industry of fanfics dedicated to pornographic "reinterpretations" of Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Frozen, My Little Pony etc.
To the extent that plenty of people assume any fanfiction is sexual in nature.
I'm sure I heard of a popular Harry Potter fanfic which is literally longer than the series itself, which is impressive given it is not a short series.
Harry Potter And The Methods of Rationality is an enormous fanfic, which quite a few people prefer to the original.
Most fanfic (of any genre) is horrible, but a small percentage is very good, and another small percentage is so bad it's good.
Boris hinting he'll vote for the WA if May agrees to go.
Which further proves that Boris is an unprincipled chancer willing to sacrifice the national interest for his own personal advancement. Either the deal is in the national interest, in which case he should support it. Or it is not, in which case he should oppose it. The identity of the PM has no bearing on the acceptability of the deal.
Hold the front page
" Boris is an unprincipled chancer " We never knew
Well I agree it's hardly news. But it remains incredible that many Tories believe that such an appalling and manifestly unsuitable character is a serious candidate for PM.
Given the way Parliament is behaving towards the people why shouldn't we have an "appalling and unsuitable" character as PM? Why not Boris? Why not Jezza? Why not Farage?
Nothing can be any worse than the betrayal Parliament is inflicting at the moment so yeah... Whatever the consequences flow from what it currently going on, the establishment will just have to suck it up.
And I would say things can get and probably will get a lot worse than Boris Johnson being Prime Minister in the end.
Ultimately, I think history will point the finger at the likes of Farage and Johnson for this nonsense. I'm no Corbynista...but seriously you cannot drag him into the same metaphorical lows as the Brexit ideologues and their self serving henchmen...
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Totally agree - they are all an abject failure to our nation
This is all a making of Tory party internal politics...one of the most disingenuous statements is to bring other parties into it like they have equal culpability....
The Tories got into this mess..they need to get us out, and not at the expense of making poor people poorer/ or our public services worse funded...
Aided and abetted by a hopeless opposition but I do agree with your general point
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Ffsake 2nd ref is now being labelled as "confirmatory"...
If Corbyn wins the next GE do we get a confirmatory referendum where he 'll need over 50% to approve him getting in ? Obviously the alteirnative is the Tory status quo.
The idea a second referendum will feature in any GE post 12th April assumes we will have sitting MEPs
Which the public may not like. But politicians do. They like elections. They also like well-paid jobs for the party faithful. Not convinced it is an insurmountable hurdle. Besides. If we are still in, we should have representatives. To not have would be the worst of all outcomes.
I agree but it is how the EU elections are mandated by the HOC by the 12th April
Expect fireworks once the public realise what is happening
And of course your last sentence cannot happen
I do wonder how many have twigged we are not leaving on Friday yet? That Rubicon has been crossed with relatively little fuss. Suspect all other rivers may be forded a little easier now. It really is mind-boggling that it is March 26 and we still have no clue what is happening.
Begs the question what's Malthouse Compromise Plan B?
One in a series of airport novels. Titles in the series include:
Malthouse Compromise Chequers Plan Letwin Amendment Norway Option
Harry Potter and the ...goes before all of them. In which our intrepid band of MPs come up with ever more incredible wheezes to ensure they are defeated...
Off-topic:
Many years ago, Mrs J and I realised that you could replace the last word in every title of the Harry Potter series with the word 'cum' and get a very different set of books: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's ... Harry Potter and the Chamber of ... Harry Potter and the Prisoner of ... Harry Potter and the Goblet of ... Harry Potter and the Order of the ... Harry Potter and the Half-Blood ... Harry Potter and the Deathly ...
Although some work better with the word in the middle: for instance, 'Harry Potter and the Cum of the Phoenix' is a rather mind-boggling title ...
I've just laughed so much that my skull aches!
The Goblet of Cum sounds like the sort of thing you'd be offered at one of Caligula's parties.
As it happens, there's a huge cottage industry of fanfics dedicated to pornographic "reinterpretations" of Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Frozen, My Little Pony etc.
To the extent that plenty of people assume any fanfiction is sexual in nature.
I'm sure I heard of a popular Harry Potter fanfic which is literally longer than the series itself, which is impressive given it is not a short series.
Harry Potter And The Methods of Rationality is an enormous fanfic, which quite a few people prefer to the original.
Most fanfic (of any genre) is horrible, but a small percentage is very good, and another small percentage is so bad it's good.
Let’s not forget My Immortal.
I've seen extracts - a masterpiece. In one sense.
I remember doing a reading with friends for which we took it in turns to read chapters. We had to stop because some people were crying with laughter.
I don't get the madness of those yearning for revoke.
I'm sure I recollect the notion that doing the same thing and expecting a different result was madness.
Revoke puts us in the position that caused us to choose to leave. How would revoke and remaining in the EU change that dynamic?
The assumption is enough people will have been worn out by the Brexit process that they will just put up with it from now on. But I think the ongoing situation will be bitter and unhelpful for the wider EU.
In fairness, there are a lot more people effusive in their support for the EU and a european identity than 3 years ago.
I feel sure that if there was one thing that Leave voters in Hartlepool really wanted it was for the government to spend $16 million on a penthouse apartment for a senior UK civil servant in New York to live in while pursuing post-Brexit trade deals. With a couple of 'staff bedrooms' smaller than the master bedroom's walk in wardrobe, natch. Liam Fox has probably already had a wank in the bath.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Where in the legislation setting up the referendum did it say it would be acted upon?
That comment sums it up really. A profound misreading of the relationship between parliament and the people by reducing it to that of a dodgy salesman exploiting a gullible pensioner.
It is perfectly legitimate to point out that legally there was no commitment, but equally it is pretty silly to pretend that therefore it should be easy or simple to disregard the referendum. Revokers and remainers have always known this, hence why for a long time plenty pretended they were not seeking remain all along, and why even now when people are honest about such things, most are still seeking the cover of an additional democratic mandate to counter that of the 2016 vote - because they are not so blase as to act like the lack of legal obligation is irrelevant, even though the argument many use, that any leave is terrible, would suggest that revocation should be used if that is how they feel, and face the consequenes at a GE, rather than risk any form of deal at a referendum again.
Plus, I'm sure it would have been totally fine if Remain had won 70:30 and Cameron had then said, "Actually, I've realised my renegotiation was total crap, so I'm invoking Article 50 tomorrow anyway. What are you all complaining about? The referendum was only advisory."
I feel sure that if there was one thing that Leave voters in Hartlepool really wanted it was for the government to spend $16 million on a penthouse apartment for a senior UK civil servant in New York to live in while pursuing post-Brexit trade deals. With a couple of 'staff bedrooms' smaller than the master bedroom's walk in wardrobe, natch. Liam Fox has probably already had a wank in the bath.
Well now that just makes me wonder if there is a policy on such activities in a government owned property, even for the person assigned to live in it. Putting in an expenses claim for damaging furnishings during fun times, in off hours, might be frowned upon for instance.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
I feel sure that if there was one thing that Leave voters in Hartlepool really wanted it was for the government to spend $16 million on a penthouse apartment for a senior UK civil servant in New York to live in while pursuing post-Brexit trade deals. With a couple of 'staff bedrooms' smaller than the master bedroom's walk in wardrobe, natch. Liam Fox has probably already had a wank in the bath.
Boris hinting he'll vote for the WA if May agrees to go.
Which further proves that Boris is an unprincipled chancer willing to sacrifice the national interest for his own personal advancement. Either the deal is in the national interest, in which case he should support it. Or it is not, in which case he should oppose it. The identity of the PM has no bearing on the acceptability of the deal.
Hold the front page
" Boris is an unprincipled chancer " We never knew
Well I agree it's hardly news. But it remains incredible that many Tories believe that such an appalling and manifestly unsuitable character is a serious candidate for PM.
Given the way Parliament is behaving towards the people why shouldn't we have an "appalling and unsuitable" character as PM? Why not Boris? Why not Jezza? Why not Farage?
Nothing can be any worse than the betrayal Parliament is inflicting at the moment so yeah... Whatever the consequences flow from what it currently going on, the establishment will just have to suck it up.
And I would say things can get and probably will get a lot worse than Boris Johnson being Prime Minister in the end.
Ultimately, I think history will point the finger at the likes of Farage and Johnson for this nonsense. I'm no Corbynista...but seriously you cannot drag him into the same metaphorical lows as the Brexit ideologues and their self serving henchmen...
No the point I'm making is now that Parliament in breaking the bond of trust with the people any and all consequences could flow from that.
We might have PM Boris but I don't think he'd be anywhere near as damaging to the establishment as PM Farage would... But then again a marxist PM and Chancellor in Corbyn would probably be worse for the establishment than either of them...
Whatever consequences flow from what's happening at Westminster right now they'll just have to suck it up.
MPs have made their choice. Voters will have to act accordingly...
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Well said. Come the next election it will be time to vote accordingly... We'll have our day of reckoning.
But who will you vote for on this day of reckoning?
Boris hinting he'll vote for the WA if May agrees to go.
Which further proves that Boris is an unprincipled chancer willing to sacrifice the national interest for his own personal advancement. Either the deal is in the national interest, in which case he should support it. Or it is not, in which case he should oppose it. The identity of the PM has no bearing on the acceptability of the deal.
Hold the front page
" Boris is an unprincipled chancer " We never knew
Well I agree it's hardly news. But it remains incredible that many Tories believe that such an appalling and manifestly unsuitable character is a serious candidate for PM.
Given the way Parliament is behaving towards the people why shouldn't we have an "appalling and unsuitable" character as PM? Why not Boris? Why not Jezza? Why not Farage?
Nothing can be any worse than the betrayal Parliament is inflicting at the moment so yeah... Whatever the consequences flow from what it currently going on, the establishment will just have to suck it up.
And I would say things can get and probably will get a lot worse than Boris Johnson being Prime Minister in the end.
Ultimately, I think history will point the finger at the likes of Farage and Johnson for this nonsense. I'm no Corbynista...but seriously you cannot drag him into the same metaphorical lows as the Brexit ideologues and their self serving henchmen...
No the point I'm making is now that Parliament in breaking the bond of trust with the people any and all consequences could flow from that.
We might have PM Boris but I don't think he'd be anywhere near as damaging to the establishment as PM Farage would... But then again a marxist PM and Chancellor in Corbyn would probably be worse for the establishment than either of them...
Whatever consequences flow from what's happening at Westminster right now they'll just have to suck it up.
MPs have made their choice. Voters will have to act accordingly...
They may not react anywhere near as much as we think they should, whether to reward or punish various parties and individuals.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Totally agree - they are all an abject failure to our nation
This is all a making of Tory party internal politics...one of the most disingenuous statements is to bring other parties into it like they have equal culpability....
The Tories got into this mess..they need to get us out, and not at the expense of making poor people poorer/ or our public services worse funded...
Aided and abetted by a hopeless opposition but I do agree with your general point
Labour's hopeless and hapless lurch to Corbyn hasn't helped of course.
I just want Brexit to stop...it's like a slow motion nightmare that you cannot wake up from. You know it ends badly..and there is nothing you can do.
I know you are a little bit older BigG....I hope that this Brexit diversion doesn't eclipse your later experiences of UK politics. My very good friend has just been diagnosed with late stage terminal cancer...and his main gripe is that he will never be able to live through this fog
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
Have you seen the wording of the ballot already?
It's a "confirmatory" referendum. It has to be a Yes/No question.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
Have you seen the wording of the ballot already?
Have you?
I'm going from what has actually been proposed, a "confirmatory vote" that's a yes/no question. If it was a second referendum they would have said it.
As I said before, I'm impressed as to how well Labour have hoodwinked the second referendum supporters into thinking this would be what they want.
Boris hinting he'll vote for the WA if May agrees to go.
Which further proves that Boris is an unprincipled chancer willing to sacrifice the national interest for his own personal advancement. Either the deal is in the national interest, in which case he should support it. Or it is not, in which case he should oppose it. The identity of the PM has no bearing on the acceptability of the deal.
Hold the front page
" Boris is an unprincipled chancer " We never knew
Well I agree it's hardly news. But it remains incredible that many Tories believe that such an appalling and manifestly unsuitable character is a serious candidate for PM.
Given the way Parliament is behaving towards the people why shouldn't we have an "appalling and unsuitable" character as PM? Why not Boris? Why not Jezza? Why not Farage?
Nothing can be any worse than the betrayal Parliament is inflicting at the moment so yeah... Whatever the consequences flow from what it currently going on, the establishment will just have to suck it up.
And I would say things can get and probably will get a lot worse than Boris Johnson being Prime Minister in the end.
Ultimately, I think history will point the finger at the likes of Farage and Johnson for this nonsense. I'm no Corbynista...but seriously you cannot drag him into the same metaphorical lows as the Brexit ideologues and their self serving henchmen...
No the point I'm making is now that Parliament in breaking the bond of trust with the people any and all consequences could flow from that.
We might have PM Boris but I don't think he'd be anywhere near as damaging to the establishment as PM Farage would... But then again a marxist PM and Chancellor in Corbyn would probably be worse for the establishment than either of them...
Whatever consequences flow from what's happening at Westminster right now they'll just have to suck it up.
MPs have made their choice. Voters will have to act accordingly...
Maybe they’ll go for a really radical change and vote in the TIG
I feel sure that if there was one thing that Leave voters in Hartlepool really wanted it was for the government to spend $16 million on a penthouse apartment for a senior UK civil servant in New York to live in while pursuing post-Brexit trade deals. With a couple of 'staff bedrooms' smaller than the master bedroom's walk in wardrobe, natch. Liam Fox has probably already had a wank in the bath.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
Have you seen the wording of the ballot already?
It's a "confirmatory" referendum. It has to be a Yes/No question.
The closest I can think of is the Greek referendum on the austerity deal. That was a stupid idea as well.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
Have you seen the wording of the ballot already?
It's a "confirmatory" referendum. It has to be a Yes/No question.
It doesn't 'have' to be so. They can call it that, but if they have the votes they can legislate for whatever options and outcomes they want.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Well said. Come the next election it will be time to vote accordingly... We'll have our day of reckoning.
But who will you vote for on this day of reckoning?
It's Jezza for me at the next general election (as I think he's most likely to cause the most damage to Westminster and the especially the Tories)
After that I don't know. Maybe I'll never vote again...
Why on God's green earth is Huw Merriman supporting Kyle-Wilson, I haven't seen him remain-rebel in any divisions so far.
I predicted earlier (half-joking) that we might soon see some Tories hoping for the Kyle/Wilson referendum between May's Deal and Remain. If they realise that May's deal is the hardest Brexit on offer, and that even that will only go through with a referendum clause.
But this new version of Kyle-Wilson doesn't even agree in principle to this deal going to the referendum. It simply rules out any deal without one, which is not the same thing.
The House of Commons is a, & is in, complete disgrace.
The grandest establishment of the land is acting like a celebrity getting off a ban for speeding on a technicality by hiring an expensive lawyer, filibustering the voters in order to deny them what was promised to be ‘your decision’ in a ‘once in a generation vote’. Absolutely disgusting.
Totally agree - they are all an abject failure to our nation
This is all a making of Tory party internal politics...one of the most disingenuous statements is to bring other parties into it like they have equal culpability....
The Tories got into this mess..they need to get us out, and not at the expense of making poor people poorer/ or our public services worse funded...
Aided and abetted by a hopeless opposition but I do agree with your general point
Labour's hopeless and hapless lurch to Corbyn hasn't helped of course.
I just want Brexit to stop...it's like a slow motion nightmare that you cannot wake up from. You know it ends badly..and there is nothing you can do.
I know you are a little bit older BigG....I hope that this Brexit diversion doesn't eclipse your later experiences of UK politics. My very good friend has just been diagnosed with late stage terminal cancer...and his main gripe is that he will never be able to live through this fog
You are kind Tyson and my wife knows I will not give up on politics though I do say it everyday as I share your utter frustration, and just want it done, one way or another but not no deal
So sorry to hear of your friend and it is so hard in those circumstances and hope your friend and their family find strength and support at this most dreadful time.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
Have you seen the wording of the ballot already?
It's a "confirmatory" referendum. It has to be a Yes/No question.
It doesn't 'have' to be so. They can call it that, but if they have the votes they can legislate for whatever options and outcomes they want.
How? If the legislation is for a confirmatory vote then the EC will struggle to write anything other than a yes/no question.
It's literally the best question to kick the can as both extremes can legitimately say that "no" means no deal/revoke.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
Have you seen the wording of the ballot already?
It's a "confirmatory" referendum. It has to be a Yes/No question.
The closest I can think of is the Greek referendum on the austerity deal. That was a stupid idea as well.
It's a marginally less stupid idea than an actual second referendum (on the grounds that there are only two, not three (or more) options, and also that it can't actually make the situation worse, other than by wasting a lot of time we don't have).
And, as you point out below, it satisfies Labour's need to continue triangulating between those who won't vote for it unless they carry out Brexit, and those who won't vote for it unless they stop it dead.
The closest I can think of is the Greek referendum on the austerity deal. That was a stupid idea as well.
That was stupid because one of the options wasn't really deliverable. I mean, the government could have done what it specified, but it would have been too obviously disastrous even for populist trots.
May-WA and Remain are definitely deliverable; I'm not sure about whatever Boles or Corbyn or whoever are cooking up.
Why on God's green earth is Huw Merriman supporting Kyle-Wilson, I haven't seen him remain-rebel in any divisions so far.
I predicted earlier (half-joking) that we might soon see some Tories hoping for the Kyle/Wilson referendum between May's Deal and Remain. If they realise that May's deal is the hardest Brexit on offer, and that even that will only go through with a referendum clause.
But this new version of Kyle-Wilson doesn't even agree in principle to this deal going to the referendum. It simply rules out any deal without one, which is not the same thing.
Which is why I think it will get less support than the earlier version would have done. It's drafted as an attempt to block Brexit, rather than to facilitate it.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
If the public refuse to ratify the new deal, then HMG must either a) revoke, b) extend, c) do a new new deal, or d) exit with no deal. A) is politically appalling, b) and c) may be rejected by the EU, and d) would be the only one left.
No no no no ...
The ratification vote will be:
Should the UK...
Leave the EU with this deal or Remain in the EU
Where does it say that?
Clearly it should be leave with or without the deal; the decision to leave has already been made.
As usual when people begin sentences with the word clearly, what follows is not at all clear.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
Have you seen the wording of the ballot already?
It's a "confirmatory" referendum. It has to be a Yes/No question.
It doesn't 'have' to be so. They can call it that, but if they have the votes they can legislate for whatever options and outcomes they want.
How? If the legislation is for a confirmatory vote then the EC will struggle to write anything other than a yes/no question.
It's literally the best question to kick the can as both extremes can legitimately say that "no" means no deal/revoke.
The legislation was my point - they may not word it so in that, even if that would make sense if it was initially floated as confirmatory. But there's been a very careful softly softly approach, and careful use of words - it's why the words second referendum were not used as much as people's cote - and I frankly don't believe that people whose main intent is to see the country remain will ever pass legislation for a referendum without a remain option. Once the hurdle of a vote at all is managed, given the time it would then take to sort out I have very little doubt moves would not take place to strengthen any remain aspects in any act, or put them in.
Israel, 9th April India, 11th April to 19th May Finland, 14th April Indonesia, 17th April Spain, 28th April South Africa, 8th May Australia, by 18th May (House and Senate) or 2nd November (House only) Belgium, 26th May Denmark, by 17th June Portugal, by 6th October Greece, by 20th October Canada, by 21st October Argentina, 27th October Ukraine, 27th October Poland, by November Sri Lanka, by 9th December Switzerland, (2019)
In the middle of various medical issues and hoping for a good conclusion shortly .
I do hope everyone has a good nights rest
Good night folks
Sorry to hear that Big G. Hope you fell better soon.
Thanks Gin. At least I am not facing terminal cancer as Tyson's good friend is
As we get into our mid seventies and beyond we have to accept we face many health issues but we are so blessed that today's medical science helps us in a good way
So the problem with this is: Say Parliament votes for SM+CU, then votes through the WA with a rider saying "we're totally doing SM+CU". Is TMay or any other Tory PM really going to go off and negotiate a deal that includes free movement? And once they do, how many of the people who are currently supporting it are going to keep supporting it?
I feel sure that if there was one thing that Leave voters in Hartlepool really wanted it was for the government to spend $16 million on a penthouse apartment for a senior UK civil servant in New York to live in while pursuing post-Brexit trade deals. With a couple of 'staff bedrooms' smaller than the master bedroom's walk in wardrobe, natch. Liam Fox has probably already had a wank in the bath.
I don’t think a Remainer like you is the best person to work out Leaver feelings, whether they live in Hartlepool or not.
Because Leavers and Remainers are now such separate subspecies that they have literally no insights into each others' motivations? I keep getting told that Brexit was a rebellion against 'elites' and reflected a desire to spend public money closer to home where it was most needed. So I surmised that Leave voters would be unhappy to see taxpayers' money spaffed up the wall on a grace and favour pad in New York where the Ferrero Rocher set could do cosy trade deals with K Street's finest. But with your superior insights into real people's thinking perhaps you can enlighten me, maybe this was really what they voted for.
That seems a very high estimate for single market and customs union. I feel like if there was enough backing for that softest of soft brexits things would have played out differently before now.
So the problem with this is: Say Parliament votes for SM+CU, then votes through the WA with a rider saying "we're totally doing SM+CU". Is TMay or any other Tory PM really going to go off and negotiate a deal that includes free movement? And once they do, how many of the people who are currently supporting it going to keep supporting it?
304 is a lot of votes for FTA. I'm surprised that many, I'd have thought that was backed only by Tories and not all of them.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
Have you seen the wording of the ballot already?
It's a "confirmatory" referendum. It has to be a Yes/No question.
It doesn't 'have' to be so. They can call it that, but if they have the votes they can legislate for whatever options and outcomes they want.
How? If the legislation is for a confirmatory vote then the EC will struggle to write anything other than a yes/no question.
It's literally the best question to kick the can as both extremes can legitimately say that "no" means no deal/revoke.
The legislation was my point - they may not word it so in that, even if that would make sense if it was initially floated as confirmatory. But there's been a very careful softly softly approach, and careful use of words - it's why the words second referendum were not used as much as people's cote - and I frankly don't believe that people whose main intent is to see the country remain will ever pass legislation for a referendum without a remain option. Once the hurdle of a vote at all is managed, given the time it would then take to sort out I have very little doubt moves would not take place to strengthen any remain aspects in any act, or put them in.
There's no majority for a second referendum in parliament. That's why this is a "confirmatory vote" they are legislating for a yes/no question and it seems to have tricked second referendum types into believing that labour are actually in favour of one (which entirely what the proposal exists to do).
So the problem with this is: Say Parliament votes for SM+CU, then votes through the WA with a rider saying "we're totally doing SM+CU". Is TMay or any other Tory PM really going to go off and negotiate a deal that includes free movement? And once they do, how many of the people who are currently supporting it going to keep supporting it?
Is the plan to get the WA through then go to the country knowing this parliament can't bind the next one?
That seems a very high estimate for single market and customs union. I feel like if there was enough backing for that softest of soft brexits things would have played out differently before now.
...which again opens the possibility of "no deal". Jeez, what a mess.
How?
What happens if the people say no?
Revoke
That's insane. There was a referendum. Yes, I know it was only advisory but it should at least be tried. You can't set up an implausible series of events then say "Naah, let's not bother". The public would go apeshit and they would be right to do so.
If the public go apeshit they will vote for the HoC approved deal rather than Remain won't they!
Where is remain an option, it's a yes/no approval ballot. The no option brings the process back to this step.
Have you seen the wording of the ballot already?
It's a "confirmatory" referendum. It has to be a Yes/No question.
The closest I can think of is the Greek referendum on the austerity deal. That was a stupid idea as well.
Worth noting that ignoring the referendum has done Tsipras no harm.
Israel, 9th April India, 11th April to 19th May Finland, 14th April Indonesia, 17th April Spain, 28th April South Africa, 8th May Australia, by 18th May (House and Senate) or 2nd November (House only) Belgium, 26th May Denmark, by 17th June Portugal, by 6th October Greece, by 20th October Canada, by 21st October Argentina, 27th October Ukraine, 27th October Poland, by November Sri Lanka, by 9th December Switzerland, (2019)
Comments
The ratification vote will be:
Should the UK...
Leave the EU with this deal
or
Remain in the EU
The proposal is "leave the EU with this deal? Y/N"
" Boris is an unprincipled chancer " We never knew
The European Community doesn't exist any more.
The number of Liberal Democrat MPs returned in the 2015 election shows what happens when politicians adopt a carefree attitude to solemn commitments. The public don’t like it.
Expect fireworks once the public realise what is happening
And of course your last sentence cannot happen
As it happens, there's a huge cottage industry of fanfics dedicated to pornographic "reinterpretations" of Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, Frozen, My Little Pony etc.
I'm sure I heard of a popular Harry Potter fanfic which is literally longer than the series itself, which is impressive given it is not a short series.
https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584
Besides, judging by height is ridiculous, since proper unicorn judgement should be on the ostentatiousness of the horn alone. All about that horn.
Most fanfic (of any genre) is horrible, but a small percentage is very good, and another small percentage is so bad it's good.
Anyway, the proposal is a yes/no on the deal question not deal/remain. A no vote simply brings us back to this point.
The Tories got into this mess..they need to get us out, and not at the expense of making poor people poorer/ or our public services worse funded...
Nothing can be any worse than the betrayal Parliament is inflicting at the moment so yeah... Whatever the consequences are that flow from what it currently going on, the establishment will just have to suck it up.
And I would say things can and probably will get a lot worse than Boris Johnson being Prime Minister in the end.
It really is mind-boggling that it is March 26 and we still have no clue what is happening.
Ultimately, I think history will point the finger at the likes of Farage and Johnson for this nonsense. I'm no Corbynista...but seriously you cannot drag him into the same metaphorical lows as the Brexit ideologues and their self serving henchmen...
I'm sure I recollect the notion that doing the same thing and expecting a different result was madness.
Revoke puts us in the position that caused us to choose to leave. How would revoke and remaining in the EU change that dynamic?
In fairness, there are a lot more people effusive in their support for the EU and a european identity than 3 years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/26/the-16m-new-york-penthouse-fit-for-a-uk-civil-servant
We might have PM Boris but I don't think he'd be anywhere near as damaging to the establishment as PM Farage would... But then again a marxist PM and Chancellor in Corbyn would probably be worse for the establishment than either of them...
Whatever consequences flow from what's happening at Westminster right now they'll just have to suck it up.
MPs have made their choice. Voters will have to act accordingly...
In the middle of various medical issues and hoping for a good conclusion shortly .
I do hope everyone has a good nights rest
Good night folks
I just want Brexit to stop...it's like a slow motion nightmare that you cannot wake up from. You know it ends badly..and there is nothing you can do.
I know you are a little bit older BigG....I hope that this Brexit diversion doesn't eclipse your later experiences of UK politics. My very good friend has just been diagnosed with late stage terminal cancer...and his main gripe is that he will never be able to live through this fog
I'm going from what has actually been proposed, a "confirmatory vote" that's a yes/no question. If it was a second referendum they would have said it.
As I said before, I'm impressed as to how well Labour have hoodwinked the second referendum supporters into thinking this would be what they want.
After that I don't know. Maybe I'll never vote again...
So sorry to hear of your friend and it is so hard in those circumstances and hope your friend and their family find strength and support at this most dreadful time.
All the best Tyson
It's literally the best question to kick the can as both extremes can legitimately say that "no" means no deal/revoke.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1110602936353214464?s=19
And, as you point out below, it satisfies Labour's need to continue triangulating between those who won't vote for it unless they carry out Brexit, and those who won't vote for it unless they stop it dead.
May-WA and Remain are definitely deliverable; I'm not sure about whatever Boles or Corbyn or whoever are cooking up.
Israel, 9th April
India, 11th April to 19th May
Finland, 14th April
Indonesia, 17th April
Spain, 28th April
South Africa, 8th May
Australia, by 18th May (House and Senate) or 2nd November (House only)
Belgium, 26th May
Denmark, by 17th June
Portugal, by 6th October
Greece, by 20th October
Canada, by 21st October
Argentina, 27th October
Ukraine, 27th October
Poland, by November
Sri Lanka, by 9th December
Switzerland, (2019)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_elections_in_2019
That's the Mr Burns version of leaving the EU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Stf9IQyH7A
As we get into our mid seventies and beyond we have to accept we face many health issues but we are so blessed that today's medical science helps us in a good way
Sounds about right for this lot...
May’s Deal and CU will do better.
Second referendum will do worse.