OK so May has shown herself unfit to be PM but not for the reasons popularly stated.
Given all the mistakes she made (and there were many) the deal she negotiated was just about the best possible. She is right that it is MPs who have refused to pursue the least bad, most pragmatic. Her deal is just about the only sensible way forward.
It is how she has handled its passage including notably last night that marks her out as manifestly not up to the job.
It was always going to be the EU27 Deal or No Deal, so I do not blame May for that.
She is culpable for her complete inability to gather support, even amongst her closest colleagues for it, and her management of the Meaningful Votes just shows how little understanding of other people she has. Even now her tone is threatening and bullying.
And the rate of signing on the Revoke Article 50 petition is back up to the 1,000+ per minute it was managing yesterday. At this rate it will hit a million sometime this evening.
So what?
It's a part of the public discussion of Brexit, and is pretty strong evidence that a lot more people find revoking appealing than no deal. It may be too late, and I think it probably is, but ultimately that has to factor into MPs voting behaviour. But if revocation doesn't happen it will certainly be very encouraging for the rejoin campaign which will no doubt be forming once we leave.
That’s a masterclass in confirmation bias.
You want to revoke and, if we do Leave, rejoin in prompt order.
There’s certainly a large constituency for that but don’t fall into a trap of thinking it’s where the centre of gravity of public opinion is.
I don't know where the centre of gravity in public opinion is. But confirmation bias aside, we both know which direction it is travelling in.
Leavers and Remainers are both firming up on the extremes.
I’d say Remain had an advantage but far from a decisive or inevitable one.
We are at the point where in other countries the military would be taking over or the people would be in the streets or both. We are a failing state bereft of leadership with no coherent, credible alternative available. The deceptions and delusions of Brexit have destroyed us.
Im surprised youre still living here :-)
He's a brave little soldier......who might benefit from a lie down and no more caffeine...
That's angry, but when does it convert into actual resignation. I've never heard so many month of angry briefings, but she's still in place. Maybe last night was the last straw for them, but we'll have to see.
I know Lord Adonis is unpopular on this forum, but he has been warning for months that one day there will be an Iraq-style public inquiry, and MPs and leaders should be mindful of how they will appear in that final report.
Leaders have to be comfortable in their own skin and do well on TV. You need to view all leadership candidates through that prism.
That's right. But that's not enough in itself. It's about the Person & Personality but it has to be about the Politics/Political Vision and the Proposition.
And in a crowded field, a successful candidate needs a distinctive proposition, a USP - Unique Selling Proposition. Which the print media can understand and get behind.
My comments below re 'The Sun Says' refer. A proposition that isn't 'virtue signalling and hectoring us over what we eat or throw away' can give the comfort in their own skin and do well on TV.
The punters want substance as well as media performability.
Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
Greetings Bunnco! long time no hear.
The flaw is that Truss is a gaffe prone half wit, though that would still be a step up from May.
Harshly fair. Would calling her the Tories' Burgon be damning her with faint opprobrium?
We are at the point where in other countries the military would be taking over or the people would be in the streets or both. We are a failing state bereft of leadership with no coherent, credible alternative available. The deceptions and delusions of Brexit have destroyed us.
The fact that neither the army nor people are in the streets shows that we are not a failing state.
I’d be interested in a transcript of that discussion
It seems unlikely - I suspect she may be making it up / exaggerating for effect
Why does it seem unlikely? If she has made it up her Tweet would be actionable.
Actually I have seen recent several occasions where hardliner Leavers completely lose it. Unfortunately it rings all too true.
There would almost certainly have been witnesses, technicians and other staff most likely. They would be reluctant to testify no doubt but their presence would make it unlikely anyone would risk a libel.
I’d be interested in a transcript of that discussion
It seems unlikely - I suspect she may be making it up / exaggerating for effect
Why does it seem unlikely? If she has made it up her Tweet would be actionable.
Actually I have seen recent several occasions where hardliner Leavers completely lose it. Unfortunately it rings all too true.
There would almost certainly have been witnesses, technicians and other staff most likely. They would be reluctant to testify no doubt but their presence would make it unlikely anyone would risk a libel.
We are at the point where in other countries the military would be taking over or the people would be in the streets or both. We are a failing state bereft of leadership with no coherent, credible alternative available. The deceptions and delusions of Brexit have destroyed us.
There was one noteworthy thing from May's speech - apart from how dishonest and, literally irresponsible it was: she mentioned No Deal but didn't argue against it, unlike extension or referendum.
The maybot has gone rogue?
According to her minders, who don't seem to be doing a good job of controlling her, this was supposedly a pitch to Labour MPs to get on with the job of approving her policy. Don't see it working at that level. Or any level really.
If Labour MPs do abstain enough to pass the deal, it will be because they felt trapped by an incompetent and dishonest PM, much as many of her own MPs will feel. It will store up resentment for the future negotiations where real hard decisions need to be made.
And the rate of signing on the Revoke Article 50 petition is back up to the 1,000+ per minute it was managing yesterday. At this rate it will hit a million sometime this evening.
Until recently, although I voted Remain and thought leaving was a stupid decision, I always thought it was right to honour the result of the referendum, provided we didn't leave without a deal.
But what's happening now is plain ridiculous, so I've signed it.
I think that's a pretty common journey. In my case I was arguing for May's deal at a dinner party last November, and going on the march on Saturday with the people I was arguing against. When the history books get to be written I think the story that will emerge will be of a potential consensus for leaving being thrown away.
Yes, my own journey has been similar. As a reluctant Remainer I couldn't see why we would not accept May's deal, with all its imperfections. Now I am very happy to see it go down and calm at the prospect of No Deal if that's where it takes us.
There was one noteworthy thing from May's speech - apart from how dishonest and, literally irresponsible it was: she mentioned No Deal but didn't argue against it, unlike extension or referendum.
The maybot has gone rogue?
According to her minders, who don't seem to be doing a good job of controlling her, this was supposedly a pitch to Labour MPs to get on with the job of approving her policy. Don't see it working at that level. Or any level really.
If Labour MPs do abstain enough to pass the deal, it will be because they felt trapped by an incompetent and dishonest PM, much as many of her own MPs will feel. It will store up resentment for the future negotiations where real hard decisions need to be made.
Your latter point is well made. In all this madness, pretty much nobody seems to have noticed that the WA is just an minor exit agreement compared to the full monty of the two year trade discussions. God help us.
OK so May has shown herself unfit to be PM but not for the reasons popularly stated.
Given all the mistakes she made (and there were many) the deal she negotiated was just about the best possible. She is right that it is MPs who have refused to pursue the least bad, most pragmatic. Her deal is just about the only sensible way forward.
It is how she has handled its passage including notably last night that marks her out as manifestly not up to the job.
We can argue about the merits of the deal, but the fact remains that it is not supported by Parliament, and also not supported by the public May tendentiously claims to be speaking for, from the evidence of pretty well all polling on the issue.
What is quite extraordinary is how May, in conjunction with the EU, has engineered this latest cliff edge - applying for the three month extension without any pretence of consulting her cabinet.
I’ll be very interested to see how Ken Clarke reacts to this.
That's angry, but when does it convert into actual resignation. I've never heard so many month of angry briefings, but she's still in place. Maybe last night was the last straw for them, but we'll have to see.
I know Lord Adonis is unpopular on this forum, but he has been warning for months that one day there will be an Iraq-style public inquiry, and MPs and leaders should be mindful of how they will appear in that final report.
Yes, but he also calls the BBC the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation.
And the rate of signing on the Revoke Article 50 petition is back up to the 1,000+ per minute it was managing yesterday. At this rate it will hit a million sometime this evening.
Until recently, although I voted Remain and thought leaving was a stupid decision, I always thought it was right to honour the result of the referendum, provided we didn't leave without a deal.
But what's happening now is plain ridiculous, so I've signed it.
I think that's a pretty common journey. In my case I was arguing for May's deal at a dinner party last November, and going on the march on Saturday with the people I was arguing against. When the history books get to be written I think the story that will emerge will be of a potential consensus for leaving being thrown away.
Yes, my own journey has been similar. As a reluctant Remainer I couldn't see why we would not accept May's deal, with all its imperfections. Now I am very happy to see it go down and calm at the prospect of No Deal if that's where it takes us.
Planning to be there Saturday.
I’m fine with May’s deal. It’s not great but it’s ok. But if it falls no deal, disruptive as it will be, is the rightful consequence.
We are at the point where in other countries the military would be taking over or the people would be in the streets or both. We are a failing state bereft of leadership with no coherent, credible alternative available. The deceptions and delusions of Brexit have destroyed us.
The fact that neither the army nor people are in the streets shows that we are not a failing state.
I disagree. Failure comes in many forms. Ceasing to exist as a consequence of an inability to build consensus is one measure, for example; as are deliberate self-harm, international humiliation and the ceding of all control to foreign powers.
The hyperbole from you today is extreme.
Try and stay off the booze for the next 10 days, for your own health.
There was one noteworthy thing from May's speech - apart from how dishonest and, literally irresponsible it was: she mentioned No Deal but didn't argue against it, unlike extension or referendum.
The maybot has gone rogue?
According to her minders, who don't seem to be doing a good job of controlling her, this was supposedly a pitch to Labour MPs to get on with the job of approving her policy. Don't see it working at that level. Or any level really.
If Labour MPs do abstain enough to pass the deal, it will be because they felt trapped by an incompetent and dishonest PM, much as many of her own MPs will feel. It will store up resentment for the future negotiations where real hard decisions need to be made.
Your latter point is well made. In all this madness, pretty much nobody seems to have noticed that the WA is just an minor exit agreement compared to the full monty of the two year trade discussions. God help us.
I think you are overworried about that
This matters because it’s when Brexit becomes real - for both sides it’s existential.
There was one noteworthy thing from May's speech - apart from how dishonest and, literally irresponsible it was: she mentioned No Deal but didn't argue against it, unlike extension or referendum.
The maybot has gone rogue?
According to her minders, who don't seem to be doing a good job of controlling her, this was supposedly a pitch to Labour MPs to get on with the job of approving her policy. Don't see it working at that level. Or any level really.
If Labour MPs do abstain enough to pass the deal, it will be because they felt trapped by an incompetent and dishonest PM, much as many of her own MPs will feel. It will store up resentment for the future negotiations where real hard decisions need to be made.
Your latter point is well made. In all this madness, pretty much nobody seems to have noticed that the WA is just an minor exit agreement compared to the full monty of the two year trade discussions. God help us.
But I think we can all agree now - May will not be part of that process.
There was one noteworthy thing from May's speech - apart from how dishonest and, literally irresponsible it was: she mentioned No Deal but didn't argue against it, unlike extension or referendum.
The maybot has gone rogue?
According to her minders, who don't seem to be doing a good job of controlling her, this was supposedly a pitch to Labour MPs to get on with the job of approving her policy. Don't see it working at that level. Or any level really.
If Labour MPs do abstain enough to pass the deal, it will be because they felt trapped by an incompetent and dishonest PM, much as many of her own MPs will feel. It will store up resentment for the future negotiations where real hard decisions need to be made.
Your latter point is well made. In all this madness, pretty much nobody seems to have noticed that the WA is just an minor exit agreement compared to the full monty of the two year trade discussions. God help us.
But I think we can all agree now - May will not be part of that process.
And the rate of signing on the Revoke Article 50 petition is back up to the 1,000+ per minute it was managing yesterday. At this rate it will hit a million sometime this evening.
Until recently, although I voted Remain and thought leaving was a stupid decision, I always thought it was right to honour the result of the referendum, provided we didn't leave without a deal.
But what's happening now is plain ridiculous, so I've signed it.
I think that's a pretty common journey. In my case I was arguing for May's deal at a dinner party last November, and going on the march on Saturday with the people I was arguing against. When the history books get to be written I think the story that will emerge will be of a potential consensus for leaving being thrown away.
Yes, my own journey has been similar. As a reluctant Remainer I couldn't see why we would not accept May's deal, with all its imperfections. Now I am very happy to see it go down and calm at the prospect of No Deal if that's where it takes us.
Planning to be there Saturday.
I’m fine with May’s deal. It’s not great but it’s ok. But if it falls no deal, disruptive as it will be, is the rightful consequence.
Where would the democratic legitimacy come from? It's not what anyone voted for.
And the rate of signing on the Revoke Article 50 petition is back up to the 1,000+ per minute it was managing yesterday. At this rate it will hit a million sometime this evening.
Until recently, although I voted Remain and thought leaving was a stupid decision, I always thought it was right to honour the result of the referendum, provided we didn't leave without a deal.
But what's happening now is plain ridiculous, so I've signed it.
I think that's a pretty common journey. In my case I was arguing for May's deal at a dinner party last November, and going on the march on Saturday with the people I was arguing against. When the history books get to be written I think the story that will emerge will be of a potential consensus for leaving being thrown away.
Yes, my own journey has been similar. As a reluctant Remainer I couldn't see why we would not accept May's deal, with all its imperfections. Now I am very happy to see it go down and calm at the prospect of No Deal if that's where it takes us.
Planning to be there Saturday.
I’m fine with May’s deal. It’s not great but it’s ok. But if it falls no deal, disruptive as it will be, is the rightful consequence.
Where would the democratic legitimacy come from? It's not what anyone voted for.
And the rate of signing on the Revoke Article 50 petition is back up to the 1,000+ per minute it was managing yesterday. At this rate it will hit a million sometime this evening.
Until recently, although I voted Remain and thought leaving was a stupid decision, I always thought it was right to honour the result of the referendum, provided we didn't leave without a deal.
But what's happening now is plain ridiculous, so I've signed it.
I think that's a pretty common journey. In my case I was arguing for May's deal at a dinner party last November, and going on the march on Saturday with the people I was arguing against. When the history books get to be written I think the story that will emerge will be of a potential consensus for leaving being thrown away.
Yes, my own journey has been similar. As a reluctant Remainer I couldn't see why we would not accept May's deal, with all its imperfections. Now I am very happy to see it go down and calm at the prospect of No Deal if that's where it takes us.
Planning to be there Saturday.
I’m fine with May’s deal. It’s not great but it’s ok. But if it falls no deal, disruptive as it will be, is the rightful consequence.
And the rate of signing on the Revoke Article 50 petition is back up to the 1,000+ per minute it was managing yesterday. At this rate it will hit a million sometime this evening.
Until recently, although I voted Remain and thought leaving was a stupid decision, I always thought it was right to honour the result of the referendum, provided we didn't leave without a deal.
But what's happening now is plain ridiculous, so I've signed it.
I think that's a pretty common journey. In my case I was arguing for May's deal at a dinner party last November, and going on the march on Saturday with the people I was arguing against. When the history books get to be written I think the story that will emerge will be of a potential consensus for leaving being thrown away.
Yes, my own journey has been similar. As a reluctant Remainer I couldn't see why we would not accept May's deal, with all its imperfections. Now I am very happy to see it go down and calm at the prospect of No Deal if that's where it takes us.
Planning to be there Saturday.
I’m fine with May’s deal. It’s not great but it’s ok. But if it falls no deal, disruptive as it will be, is the rightful consequence.
Where would the democratic legitimacy come from? It's not what anyone voted for.
And the rate of signing on the Revoke Article 50 petition is back up to the 1,000+ per minute it was managing yesterday. At this rate it will hit a million sometime this evening.
Until recently, although I voted Remain and thought leaving was a stupid decision, I always thought it was right to honour the result of the referendum, provided we didn't leave without a deal.
But what's happening now is plain ridiculous, so I've signed it.
I think that's a pretty common journey. In my case I was arguing for May's deal at a dinner party last November, and going on the march on Saturday with the people I was arguing against. When the history books get to be written I think the story that will emerge will be of a potential consensus for leaving being thrown away.
Yes, my own journey has been similar. As a reluctant Remainer I couldn't see why we would not accept May's deal, with all its imperfections. Now I am very happy to see it go down and calm at the prospect of No Deal if that's where it takes us.
Planning to be there Saturday.
I’m fine with May’s deal. It’s not great but it’s ok. But if it falls no deal, disruptive as it will be, is the rightful consequence.
Where would the democratic legitimacy come from? It's not what anyone voted for.
And the rate of signing on the Revoke Article 50 petition is back up to the 1,000+ per minute it was managing yesterday. At this rate it will hit a million sometime this evening.
Until recently, although I voted Remain and thought leaving was a stupid decision, I always thought it was right to honour the result of the referendum, provided we didn't leave without a deal.
But what's happening now is plain ridiculous, so I've signed it.
I think that's a pretty common journey. In my case I was arguing for May's deal at a dinner party last November, and going on the march on Saturday with the people I was arguing against. When the history books get to be written I think the story that will emerge will be of a potential consensus for leaving being thrown away.
Yes, my own journey has been similar. As a reluctant Remainer I couldn't see why we would not accept May's deal, with all its imperfections. Now I am very happy to see it go down and calm at the prospect of No Deal if that's where it takes us.
Planning to be there Saturday.
Close to my position, too, though I am far from sanguine about the prospect of No Deal.
As pointed out just now, the WA is far from a conclusion of the issue, as May pretended in her utterly dishonest speech last night. And if it is reluctantly passed by an arm-twisted Parliament (which anyway looks unlikely) the legacy of bitterness will last long beyond the two years of wrangling which are programmed to follow.
I’m not sure your enthusiasm for posting updates on this petition on here every 15 minutes is widely shared.
Go and have a lie down.
I need to earn a living so I will give it a rest. But if you change your mind and want an update, revoke article 50 is the top trending item on Twitter so there will be plenty of people talking about it on there. And the next milestone is getting to be the most signed current petition - just behind by a nose right now.
Look at the kind of jobs offered in Britain, and the levels of income and security they offer. That will help explain why indicators such as child poverty can be so high, with such apparent high employment compared to several Continental countries.
I’m not sure your enthusiasm for posting updates on this petition on here every 15 minutes is widely shared.
Go and have a lie down.
I need to earn a living so I will give it a rest. But if you change your mind and want an update, revoke article 50 is the top trending item on Twitter so there will be plenty of people talking about it on there. And the next milestone is getting to be the most signed current petition - just behind by a nose right now.
A million signatures by teatime seems a reasonable target.
First Day of Spring. And, with a spring in my step, I danced into Brussels, delivered the line "Nobody puts Blighty in a corner" and danced back to Downing Street.
Oh, the look on their faces! Priceless. Well, obviously, it cost me my job, but....
I’m not sure your enthusiasm for posting updates on this petition on here every 15 minutes is widely shared.
Go and have a lie down.
I need to earn a living so I will give it a rest. But if you change your mind and want an update, revoke article 50 is the top trending item on Twitter so there will be plenty of people talking about it on there. And the next milestone is getting to be the most signed current petition - just behind by a nose right now.
A million signatures by teatime seems a reasonable target.
And a billion tears as we No Deal Brexit. They'll have the same effect.
I’m not sure your enthusiasm for posting updates on this petition on here every 15 minutes is widely shared.
Go and have a lie down.
I need to earn a living so I will give it a rest. But if you change your mind and want an update, revoke article 50 is the top trending item on Twitter so there will be plenty of people talking about it on there. And the next milestone is getting to be the most signed current petition - just behind by a nose right now.
A million signatures by teatime seems a reasonable target.
And a billion tears as we No Deal Brexit. They'll have the same effect.
I am pretty relaxed about No Deal. It will be a short lived state.
Look at the kind of jobs offered in Britain, and the levels of income and security they offer. That will help explain why indicators such as child poverty can be so high, with such apparent high employment compared to several Continental countries.
UK and EU child poverty are not that dissimilar - UK 27.7 (same as in 2009) and EU 24.9. (at risk of poverty <18). Some big countries are worse (Italy 32.1, Spain 31.3) others better France (22.3).
Comments
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584
She is culpable for her complete inability to gather support, even amongst her closest colleagues for it, and her management of the Meaningful Votes just shows how little understanding of other people she has. Even now her tone is threatening and bullying.
I’d say Remain had an advantage but far from a decisive or inevitable one.
If Labour MPs do abstain enough to pass the deal, it will be because they felt trapped by an incompetent and dishonest PM, much as many of her own MPs will feel. It will store up resentment for the future negotiations where real hard decisions need to be made.
Planning to be there Saturday.
Full employment (slowly) rising wages and a good deal more sang froid than some are displaying this morning could be factors....
What is quite extraordinary is how May, in conjunction with the EU, has engineered this latest cliff edge - applying for the three month extension without any pretence of consulting her cabinet.
I’ll be very interested to see how Ken Clarke reacts to this.
The man is unhinged.
Go and have a lie down.
Try and stay off the booze for the next 10 days, for your own health.
This matters because it’s when Brexit becomes real - for both sides it’s existential.
Trade deals are trade deals
https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/744138949384278016
That was the question on the ballot paper
Everything else is extrapolation
UK: 4.0% (actually now 3.9%, but same basis as other countries)
France: 8.8%
Italy: 10.5%
Spain: 14.1%
Only Germany (3.2%) beats us among the big EU countries.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics
As pointed out just now, the WA is far from a conclusion of the issue, as May pretended in her utterly dishonest speech last night. And if it is reluctantly passed by an arm-twisted Parliament (which anyway looks unlikely) the legacy of bitterness will last long beyond the two years of wrangling which are programmed to follow.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_ComRes/status/1108637725995999232
First Day of Spring. And, with a spring in my step, I danced into Brussels, delivered the line "Nobody puts Blighty in a corner" and danced back to Downing Street.
Oh, the look on their faces! Priceless. Well, obviously, it cost me my job, but....
https://twitter.com/dwnews/status/1108641601125912576
I hope the person who created the petition doesn’t get an automated email every time someone new signs...
http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/submitViewTableAction.do