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135

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Theresa May will not win over sufficient numbers of the 75. Her only hope is Labour, and that's a pretty slim one.

    Why do I write this? Because I had an exchange this afternoon with one of those 75. He told me that he cannot vote for her deal "because it isn't Brexit". He then pointed me to this:

    https://brexitcentral.com/brexiteers-right-tuesday-reject-deal-leave-brussels-control/

    The fact is that those hardliners simply don't believe Theresa May's deal is Brexit. In fact, they think it's worse than if we remained in the EU.

    So don't bet on her getting this through. A few may be swayed but the MP who spoke to me was absolutely by no means one of the more fanatical. Far from it.

    Even her plan may be MV4, which rather shows that hopes are not that high. We're just in the hopelessly positive phase of the pre-vote period.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On the substance of today's climate change protests, the UK's emmissions are back to levels last seen in 1890 !

    Yes, it's not the UK which people should be complaining about. Our switch from coal to renewables since 2010 has been absolutely astonishing - far different from what anyone had expected. The offshore wind industry in particular has been a great success - this is one of the things the Cameron governments got right (after a rather stuttering start, admittedly). Of course technological advances have also played their part, and again have been faster than expected.
    A lot of Green activists would like us to go back to the emission levels of 1090.
    And more. The world as a whole needs to be looking at reducing to zero net CO2 emissions within the next 50 years or so.
    That is unattainable.
    Didn't we have a period in the fifth or sixth century CE when the Northern Hemisphere was very dark and cold, and thousands died? Not sure what happened in mid to North Asia.
    Yep. It was world wide. As was the MWP.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Theresa May will not win over sufficient numbers of the 75. Her only hope is Labour, and that's a pretty slim one.

    Why do I write this? Because I had an exchange this afternoon with one of those 75. He told me that he cannot vote for her deal "because it isn't Brexit". He then pointed me to this:

    https://brexitcentral.com/brexiteers-right-tuesday-reject-deal-leave-brussels-control/

    The fact is that those hardliners simply don't believe Theresa May's deal is Brexit. In fact, they think it's worse than if we remained in the EU.

    So don't bet on her getting this through. A few may be swayed but the MP who spoke to me was absolutely by no means one of the more fanatical. Far from it.

    I would have thought that the terminal stupidity displayed by such people is actually a perfectly valid reason for deselecting them in fairness.

    Somebody whose reasoning runs that way is somebody I don't want legislating on my behalf!
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    rcs1000 said:

    Tom Pursglove has put together a letter which I suspect summarises the thinking of quite a few of the hardcore:

    https://www.votepursglove.co.uk/sites/www.votepursglove.co.uk/files/2019-03/Brexit Statement 15th March 2019.pdf

    Worth a read to understand the mindset.

    Good piece, but I think he's fundamentally wrong on three points:

    1. The "mini deals" he postulates are a long, long way from being ready. Furthermore, they don't cover areas where the EU simply has no competence - such as the rights of British nationals in EU countries if the UK becomes a third party, or the tax treatment of UK companies' subsidiaries in the EU.

    2. The backstop can be left unilaterally. International law is not as he thinks it is. Furthermore, the only circumstance (I would hope) where we would seek to leave is one where the EU has broken its commitments, and therefore the arbitration is in our favour.

    3. The EU doesn't actually want to trap the UK (as a whole) in the backstop. Why? Because it would basically have offered the UK the status of Switzerland, only without the payments or the Freedom of Movement. That's an anomaly that they will be keen to rectify as soon as possible (otherwise Switzerland will start agitating loudly).
    The (wilful) misunderstanding of the final point genuinely irritates me. It’s a cleverly constructed mechanism without explicitly saying the same and seems to have fallen victim to those who need everything clearly and unambiguously signposted (here as much as in parliament).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On the substance of today's climate change protests, the UK's emmissions are back to levels last seen in 1890 !

    Yes, it's not the UK which people should be complaining about. Our switch from coal to renewables since 2010 has been absolutely astonishing - far different from what anyone had expected. The offshore wind industry in particular has been a great success - this is one of the things the Cameron governments got right (after a rather stuttering start, admittedly). Of course technological advances have also played their part, and again have been faster than expected.
    A lot of Green activists would like us to go back to the emission levels of 1090.
    And more. The world as a whole needs to be looking at reducing to zero net CO2 emissions within the next 50 years or so.
    That is unattainable.
    Didn't we have a period in the fifth or sixth century CE when the Northern Hemisphere was very dark and cold, and thousands died? Not sure what happened in mid to North Asia.
    Yep. It was world wide. As was the MWP.
    You had me worried for a moment. Then I realised it wasn't MVP.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725
    rcs1000 said:

    The backstop can be left unilaterally. International law is not as he thinks it is. Furthermore, the only circumstance (I would hope) where we would seek to leave is one where the EU has broken its commitments, and therefore the arbitration is in our favour.

    Forget the law for a moment and think about political and practical reality. Do you think there will be a time when the UK will implement a meaningful free trade agreement that will apply to Northern Ireland?
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    Its clear where the pressure is on, ERG can vote on mass for May’s deal MV3, yes of course they can, but all the big fig leaves have been burnt. 😁

    on others is the pressure coming off… There’s no March cliff edge now? All this talk of pressure to get behind May’s deal, If panicking about cliff edge or backstop, is there actually less pressure now? For example, If DUP don’t sign this flawed deal (flawed in Prime ministers word not just opponents) are they likely get a better deal in long run (in terms of less threat to integrity of the union) also the soft breixteers getting what they want with delay and rethink, so where’s pressure on them to get behind it?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On the substance of today's climate change protests, the UK's emmissions are back to levels last seen in 1890 !

    Yes, it's not the UK which people should be complaining about. Our switch from coal to renewables since 2010 has been absolutely astonishing - far different from what anyone had expected. The offshore wind industry in particular has been a great success - this is one of the things the Cameron governments got right (after a rather stuttering start, admittedly). Of course technological advances have also played their part, and again have been faster than expected.
    A lot of Green activists would like us to go back to the emission levels of 1090.
    And more. The world as a whole needs to be looking at reducing to zero net CO2 emissions within the next 50 years or so.
    That is unattainable.
    Didn't we have a period in the fifth or sixth century CE when the Northern Hemisphere was very dark and cold, and thousands died? Not sure what happened in mid to North Asia.
    There was a huge plague across Europe and the Eastern Empire c.550. Britain in the 6th century must have been like a Mad Max film.
    One interesting hypothesis which is now very popular and which I subscribe to is that the 4th century was also marked by a whole series of plagues that devastated the Western Roman Empire. There are certainly records of 3 of them in Roman accounts of the period and it seems to be borne out by evidence of large scale depopulation in the British Isles which may have contributed to the collapse of Roman rule in the province.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    .
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Foxy said:

    When the May Deal does pass - thanks to the votes of MPs who said they would never, ever vote for it - how much money would they have cost the country in wasted No Deal preparations?

    A lot, but even more in lost business and in irreversible moves of operations to the EU27, most of which could have been avoided if the deal had been agreed back in Nov/Dec of last year.

    Yep, it is absolutely unforgivable. A lot of those companies are not coming back. More may have put in place departure plans that they now will not change.

    Though unless the final FTA is not so free flowing as the current SM as continued in the WA, then they have merely brought forward their plans by 18 months.

    The hassle over the May Deal does not bode well for the next rounds of negotiations.

    Absolutely. The whole thing is a shit-show, of course. All we have learned in the last two years is that we can set red lines, then the EU will decide what deal we get.
    That’s exactly why Article 50 was designed in that way . It gives all the power to the EU . The departing country is forced into the sequencing of the talks . As soon as the clock starts ticking any power from the UK started to ebb away .

    The reasons for some not liking the EU are the reasons it’s so hard to leave . EU law and UK law are so entwined. Personally I like most EU laws and they’ve done a lot of good in many areas . I’m a staunch Remainer who sees the EU as the final protection against capitalism on steroids .

    The EU is far from perfect but IMO a lot better than the Mogg cabal left to run riot . The problem for the UK in global terms you’re either a rule taker or not . As part of the EU the UK shaped many of the rules and had vetoes in certain areas .

    Now it will be a supplicant to either the US or the EU or likely both . I’m afraid size matters , the EU combined economy versus the UK . There will be only one winner . The future talks might not get quite the media attention and the public will tune out but it’s not going to be pretty.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    ydoethur said:

    Andrew said:

    Time for some consequences for those MPs playing silly games:
    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1106611410245689344

    It's ironic that after four years of talking about Labour deselections as Corbyn's dogmatism starts to bite on the PLP, and now it's the Tories who are talking about it because of their dogmatism over Brexit!

    I suppose the difference is we're talking about an extremist minority of the PCP, whereas the group under threat in the PLP are the mainstream majority. But it's still ironic.
    Each and every one of those Tory MPs was elected on a Manifesto that said they would implement Brexit. They have tried to get the terms changed - but now, we have the final deal on offer from the EU. There is nothing else coming down the pike. Yes, its a shit deal. But it is Brexit.

    Shit - or time to get out the party.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,888
    FPT
    rpjs said:

    The Dail franchise has been extended to resident British citizens in the Republic in reciprocity for the electoral rights Britain extended to Irish citizens in 1949.

    If the Irish waited for a few more weeks, they could have remained in the Commonwealth as a Republic, like India did, per the London Declaration of 28/4/1949.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    Wow that sounds great. You’re very lucky . Do you often get 4 course meals ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited March 2019

    ydoethur said:

    Andrew said:

    Time for some consequences for those MPs playing silly games:
    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1106611410245689344

    It's ironic that after four years of talking about Labour deselections as Corbyn's dogmatism starts to bite on the PLP, and now it's the Tories who are talking about it because of their dogmatism over Brexit!

    I suppose the difference is we're talking about an extremist minority of the PCP, whereas the group under threat in the PLP are the mainstream majority. But it's still ironic.
    Each and every one of those Tory MPs was elected on a Manifesto that said they would implement Brexit. They have tried to get the terms changed - but now, we have the final deal on offer from the EU. There is nothing else coming down the pike. Yes, its a shit deal. But it is Brexit.

    Shit - or time to get out the party.
    Every single one of those Labour MPs was elected on a manifesto pledging to make Corbyn Prime Minister....

    ...if you see my point.

    The more amusing side, insofar as there is any amusing side to it, is that it's the Brexiteers that are blocking Brexit and therefore showing awesome dumbness.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615
    GIN1138 said:

    This time next week we could have the WA signed off by Parliament and the extension to 30th June signed off by the EU.

    Hopefully Theresa will announce her resignation as Con leader by the end of the month and we can spend the next 2-3 months up to 30th June getting a new Con leader and PM followed by a new cabinet and a general election.

    That would then be followed by a new LOTO and a new Speaker. Plus we know we're getting a new Lib-Dem leader soon.

    2019 could be the year of refresh and renewal.

    A Fishing For Leave spokesman said: “The terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are an existential threat to fishing and a total betrayal of Brexit and Britain. It means a second surrender of our industry and coastal communities and places a constitutional bomb under democracy.”

    Anyone who says MPs are just playing games, risking Brexit and need to see sense and back May’s deal (such as the Sun’s editorial today) that’s actually deeply patronising. It’s lazy it’s insulting. At both wings of the tory party it is entirely honest to be opposing May’s flawed deal on principle.

    Just because you love it does not mean an opponent of something is not in principled position.

    In fact anyone spouting such patronising claptrap (such as the sun, Mails, Expresses editorials, some posters here) are typically blinkered about what happens when this now wins. There’s Solid argument May’s deal is not at all popular amongst the representatives, nor popular outside amongst the people as well, not popular even under coercion, so can politics and the country actually come together after forcing this through with a gun to the head? good comes once Bullying wins over principle?

    If MV3 is a success, what sort of success if its like poll tax x 100 and so many unhappy, many (remainers and brexiteers who hate the deal) angry with outcome, particularly how forced into signing up to that hated outcome? A disaster Not just in terms of May’s legacy personally, but a disastrous impact on the Conservative party going forward with this burning grievance hung around its neck, long after the lady is gone.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,042

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    Sounds yum.

    However, given the choice of that feast or a bag of chips and a [MODERATED], which would you choose???
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,724

    I'll take Occam's razor. I'll have has aftershave as well, and his bergamot scented post shave wipes with aloe vera and allantoin while I am at it.

    When an accusation is made by a political opponent it is always a good idea to be skeptical about it. This is especially the case when it is so convenient and tempting. The left in general including the Labour Party do have a tendency to be a bit pious and sanctimonious about racism. So who wouldn't enjoy exposing their hypocrisy on this matter? I'd quite enjoy it myself.

    But anti-semitism is quite a serious charge to make. It really does require some pretty strong evidence. There have been a few dribs and drabs of this. The most clear cut was the councillor in Littlehampton. But that one was dealt with extremely quickly and effectively, and so doesn't really fit the story.

    I'll take it seriously when there is something other than innuendo.

    In the meantime just so you know, I am generally sympathetic to Labour but I am not a member and I don't even vote for them that often.

    You missed a rather important point in my post: many of the 'political opponents' accusing Labour of it, and even Corbyn of being an anti-Semite, are Labour people!

    There's loads more than innuendo. I gave you a far from comprehensive list the other day. If you can read that and not believe that Labour has a problem, and that Corbyn's a bit whiffy, then goodness help you.

    I also see you've forgotten about Livingstone ...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    dots said:

    GIN1138 said:

    This time next week we could have the WA signed off by Parliament and the extension to 30th June signed off by the EU.

    Hopefully Theresa will announce her resignation as Con leader by the end of the month and we can spend the next 2-3 months up to 30th June getting a new Con leader and PM followed by a new cabinet and a general election.

    That would then be followed by a new LOTO and a new Speaker. Plus we know we're getting a new Lib-Dem leader soon.

    2019 could be the year of refresh and renewal.

    A Fishing For Leave spokesman said: “The terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are an existential threat to fishing and a total betrayal of Brexit and Britain. It means a second surrender of our industry and coastal communities and places a constitutional bomb under democracy.”

    Anyone who says MPs are just playing games, risking Brexit and need to see sense and back May’s deal (such as the Sun’s editorial today) that’s actually deeply patronising. It’s lazy it’s insulting. At both wings of the tory party it is entirely honest to be opposing May’s flawed deal on principle.

    Just because you love it does not mean an opponent of something is not in principled position.

    In fact anyone spouting such patronising claptrap (such as the sun, Mails, Expresses editorials, some posters here) are typically blinkered about what happens when this now wins. There’s Solid argument May’s deal is not at all popular amongst the representatives, nor popular outside amongst the people as well, not popular even under coercion, so can politics and the country actually come together after forcing this through with a gun to the head? good comes once Bullying wins over principle?

    If MV3 is a success, what sort of success if its like poll tax x 100 and so many unhappy, many (remainers and brexiteers who hate the deal) angry with outcome, particularly how forced into signing up to that hated outcome? A disaster Not just in terms of May’s legacy personally, but a disastrous impact on the Conservative party going forward with this burning grievance hung around its neck, long after the lady is gone.
    Could you let me know what outcome is loved by more than about 20% of the people?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    dots said:

    GIN1138 said:

    This time next week we could have the WA signed off by Parliament and the extension to 30th June signed off by the EU.

    Hopefully Theresa will announce her resignation as Con leader by the end of the month and we can spend the next 2-3 months up to 30th June getting a new Con leader and PM followed by a new cabinet and a general election.

    That would then be followed by a new LOTO and a new Speaker. Plus we know we're getting a new Lib-Dem leader soon.

    2019 could be the year of refresh and renewal.

    A Fishing For Leave spokesman said: “The terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are an existential threat to fishing and a total betrayal of Brexit and Britain. It means a second surrender of our industry and coastal communities and places a constitutional bomb under democracy.”

    Anyone who says MPs are just playing games, risking Brexit and need to see sense and back May’s deal (such as the Sun’s editorial today) that’s actually deeply patronising. It’s lazy it’s insulting. At both wings of the tory party it is entirely honest to be opposing May’s flawed deal on principle.
    It can be. The question is is everyone opposing it doing so on principle? Same with Labour. Is the talk of people looking to find a way to climbdown accurate, in which case the deal is not really being opposed in principle, or are they telling the truth? The ones who are prepared to back it but need cover to do so are playing games. The hard core actually probably are not, even if they are wrong.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    dots said:

    GIN1138 said:

    This time next week we could have the WA signed off by Parliament and the extension to 30th June signed off by the EU.

    Hopefully Theresa will announce her resignation as Con leader by the end of the month and we can spend the next 2-3 months up to 30th June getting a new Con leader and PM followed by a new cabinet and a general election.

    That would then be followed by a new LOTO and a new Speaker. Plus we know we're getting a new Lib-Dem leader soon.

    2019 could be the year of refresh and renewal.

    A Fishing For Leave spokesman said: “The terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are an existential threat to fishing and a total betrayal of Brexit and Britain. It means a second surrender of our industry and coastal communities and places a constitutional bomb under democracy.”

    Anyone who says MPs are just playing games, risking Brexit and need to see sense and back May’s deal (such as the Sun’s editorial today) that’s actually deeply patronising. It’s lazy it’s insulting. At both wings of the tory party it is entirely honest to be opposing May’s flawed deal on principle.

    Just because you love it does not mean an opponent of something is not in principled position.

    In fact anyone spouting such patronising claptrap (such as the sun, Mails, Expresses editorials, some posters here) are typically blinkered about what happens when this now wins. There’s Solid argument May’s deal is not at all popular amongst the representatives, nor popular outside amongst the people as well, not popular even under coercion, so can politics and the country actually come together after forcing this through with a gun to the head? good comes once Bullying wins over principle?

    If MV3 is a success, what sort of success if its like poll tax x 100 and so many unhappy, many (remainers and brexiteers who hate the deal) angry with outcome, particularly how forced into signing up to that hated outcome? A disaster Not just in terms of May’s legacy personally, but a disastrous impact on the Conservative party going forward with this burning grievance hung around its neck, long after the lady is gone.
    Who cares about the Tory party? I have no more interest in its survival than I do in that of Labour, the Lib Dems of any other political party. What matters is whether the deal is right for the country.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    Sounds yum.

    However, given the choice of that feast or a bag of chips and a [MODERATED], which would you choose???
    Well, it sounds a lot better than this:

    AI and spices: Would you put cumin on a pizza?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47403689

    And we thought pineapple was bad...
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    I've been doing a bit of research and what's interesting is just how many of the Conservative hardline Leavers have been pretty quiet over the last few days. I've gone through more than half and I'd say ten can be counted on to vote against, half a dozen or so look likely to vote against, three look like they're changing sides and the rest are keeping their powder dry.

    Make of that what you will.

    Assuming the DUP come on board. How many Labour votes do you think May will need?

    I'm sceptical that the DUP will come on board. I don't see what's in it for them. But if they do come on board, Theresa May will need 314+10+5 IND -Y Tory Dissidents + (Y-17) Lab, I think.

    So, for example, if there are 40 Tory Dissidents, there will need to be 23 Labour assistants.

    If there really are only 30 Labour MPs who might conceivably assist, Theresa May still looks well odds against to me winning any third meaningful vote.
    Grieve is still likely to vote against MV3 . Has there not been some suggestion that other Tory Remainers such as Clarke, Sandbach, Lee and Greening are now less likely to support May's Deal again given the possibility of a longer extension?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    A question for everyone .

    Will you miss Brexit . Politics has never been more chaotic and interesting , I’m sure we’re becoming addicted to this .

    Wednesday night was thrilling . The ups and downs , when Cooper pushed her amendment which could have become a huge own goal . If the Tories had overturned that amended motion . What next ?

    The complete break down in party discipline , the utter chaos .

    It’s been surely one of the most interesting chapters in politics. As a Remainer though I’d still have been happier with the dull post Remain political landscape !
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    ydoethur said:

    Theresa May will not win over sufficient numbers of the 75. Her only hope is Labour, and that's a pretty slim one.

    Why do I write this? Because I had an exchange this afternoon with one of those 75. He told me that he cannot vote for her deal "because it isn't Brexit". He then pointed me to this:

    https://brexitcentral.com/brexiteers-right-tuesday-reject-deal-leave-brussels-control/

    The fact is that those hardliners simply don't believe Theresa May's deal is Brexit. In fact, they think it's worse than if we remained in the EU.

    So don't bet on her getting this through. A few may be swayed but the MP who spoke to me was absolutely by no means one of the more fanatical. Far from it.

    I would have thought that the terminal stupidity displayed by such people is actually a perfectly valid reason for deselecting them in fairness.

    Somebody whose reasoning runs that way is somebody I don't want legislating on my behalf!
    We need PR and more smaller parties, e.g. League of Empire Loyalists, Freedom Party, etc, etc. They won't get many votes and seats but can happily rant away on the back benches as the representatives of the nuttier voters.

    Sometimes it'll be worth other people listening to them. Just occasionally, even Philip Davies or Peter Bone say things that I agree with.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    justin124 said:

    I've been doing a bit of research and what's interesting is just how many of the Conservative hardline Leavers have been pretty quiet over the last few days. I've gone through more than half and I'd say ten can be counted on to vote against, half a dozen or so look likely to vote against, three look like they're changing sides and the rest are keeping their powder dry.

    Make of that what you will.

    Assuming the DUP come on board. How many Labour votes do you think May will need?

    I'm sceptical that the DUP will come on board. I don't see what's in it for them. But if they do come on board, Theresa May will need 314+10+5 IND -Y Tory Dissidents + (Y-17) Lab, I think.

    So, for example, if there are 40 Tory Dissidents, there will need to be 23 Labour assistants.

    If there really are only 30 Labour MPs who might conceivably assist, Theresa May still looks well odds against to me winning any third meaningful vote.
    Grieve is still likely to vote against MV3 . Has there not been some suggestion that other Tory Remainers such as Clarke, Sandbach, Lee and Greening are now less likely to support May's Deal again given the possibility of a longer extension?
    He has described the deal as dead. I would not think it is a given he would not vote for it again - his comments might have been predicated on thinking some of the amendments yesterday might pass perhaps - but it doesn't seem like it an be taken as a given.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,628
    dots said:

    Its clear where the pressure is on, ERG can vote on mass for May’s deal MV3, yes of course they can, but all the big fig leaves have been burnt. 😁

    on others is the pressure coming off… There’s no March cliff edge now? All this talk of pressure to get behind May’s deal, If panicking about cliff edge or backstop, is there actually less pressure now? For example, If DUP don’t sign this flawed deal (flawed in Prime ministers word not just opponents) are they likely get a better deal in long run (in terms of less threat to integrity of the union) also the soft breixteers getting what they want with delay and rethink, so where’s pressure on them to get behind it?

    Pissing off the Conservative party is not the best long term strategy for the DUP.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,586
    edited March 2019
    Testing
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    Sounds yum.

    However, given the choice of that feast or a bag of chips and a [MODERATED], which would you choose???
    Who says he’s not getting that , I guessed the moderated word. Although not sure he’ll be able to get off the sofa after all that food !
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    nico67 said:

    A question for everyone .

    Will you miss Brexit . Politics has never been more chaotic and interesting , I’m sure we’re becoming addicted to this .

    Wednesday night was thrilling . The ups and downs , when Cooper pushed her amendment which could have become a huge own goal . If the Tories had overturned that amended motion . What next ?

    The complete break down in party discipline , the utter chaos .

    It’s been surely one of the most interesting chapters in politics. As a Remainer though I’d still have been happier with the dull post Remain political landscape !

    I'd prefer not to live in such interesting times.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    nico67 said:

    Tom Pursglove has put together a letter which I suspect summarises the thinking of quite a few of the hardcore:

    https://www.votepursglove.co.uk/sites/www.votepursglove.co.uk/files/2019-03/Brexit Statement 15th March 2019.pdf

    Worth a read to understand the mindset.

    He's folding.

    Yes definitely . The whole letter is him trying to show he battled hard but he needs to vote for the deal to deliver even an imperfect Brexit .

    The deal gives control to the EU and flies in the face of the take back control guff . You really couldn’t make it up . And the UK will be extending the transition most likely till end of Dec 2021.

    I find it truly ironic that we’ve gone through all this , 3 years of chaos and division to deliver a deal that means the biggest transfer of sovereignty from the UK !

    As a Remainer I’m still trying to work out where that was on the side of the bus !
    If it really did amount to a big transfer of sovereignty,you, the Lib Dems, SNP, Peoples' Vote etc. would all be in favour of it. But, it does not, and they are not.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,498
    dots said:

    GIN1138 said:

    This time next week we could have the WA signed off by Parliament and the extension to 30th June signed off by the EU.

    Hopefully Theresa will announce her resignation as Con leader by the end of the month and we can spend the next 2-3 months up to 30th June getting a new Con leader and PM followed by a new cabinet and a general election.

    That would then be followed by a new LOTO and a new Speaker. Plus we know we're getting a new Lib-Dem leader soon.

    2019 could be the year of refresh and renewal.

    A Fishing For Leave spokesman said: “The terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are an existential threat to fishing and a total betrayal of Brexit and Britain. It means a second surrender of our industry and coastal communities and places a constitutional bomb under democracy.”

    Anyone who says MPs are just playing games, risking Brexit and need to see sense and back May’s deal (such as the Sun’s editorial today) that’s actually deeply patronising. It’s lazy it’s insulting. At both wings of the tory party it is entirely honest to be opposing May’s flawed deal on principle.

    Just because you love it does not mean an opponent of something is not in principled position.

    In fact anyone spouting such patronising claptrap (such as the sun, Mails, Expresses editorials, some posters here) are typically blinkered about what happens when this now wins. There’s Solid argument May’s deal is not at all popular amongst the representatives, nor popular outside amongst the people as well, not popular even under coercion, so can politics and the country actually come together after forcing this through with a gun to the head? good comes once Bullying wins over principle?

    If MV3 is a success, what sort of success if its like poll tax x 100 and so many unhappy, many (remainers and brexiteers who hate the deal) angry with outcome, particularly how forced into signing up to that hated outcome? A disaster Not just in terms of May’s legacy personally, but a disastrous impact on the Conservative party going forward with this burning grievance hung around its neck, long after the lady is gone.
    The WA says very little about fishing, other than it’s a negotiating item TBC.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    You have not mentioned the wine. That is always good humoured bragging rights on this forum.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    At the moment the pro EU Tories have cover from the ERG in voting against but if the latter group fold there’ll be a lot of pressure on them .

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,586
    rcs1000 said:

    dots said:

    GIN1138 said:

    This time next week we could have the WA signed off by Parliament and the extension to 30th June signed off by the EU.

    Hopefully Theresa will announce her resignation as Con leader by the end of the month and we can spend the next 2-3 months up to 30th June getting a new Con leader and PM followed by a new cabinet and a general election.

    That would then be followed by a new LOTO and a new Speaker. Plus we know we're getting a new Lib-Dem leader soon.

    2019 could be the year of refresh and renewal.

    A Fishing For Leave spokesman said: “The terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are an existential threat to fishing and a total betrayal of Brexit and Britain. It means a second surrender of our industry and coastal communities and places a constitutional bomb under democracy.”

    Anyone who says MPs are just playing games, risking Brexit and need to see sense and back May’s deal (such as the Sun’s editorial today) that’s actually deeply patronising. It’s lazy it’s insulting. At both wings of the tory party it is entirely honest to be opposing May’s flawed deal on principle.

    Just because you love it does not mean an opponent of something is not in principled position.

    In fact anyone spouting such patronising claptrap (such as the sun, Mails, Expresses editorials, some posters here) are typically blinkered about what happens when this now wins. There’s Solid argument May’s deal is not at all popular amongst the representatives, nor popular outside amongst the people as well, not popular even under coercion, so can politics and the country actually come together after forcing this through with a gun to the head? good comes once Bullying wins over principle?

    If MV3 is a success, what sort of success if its like poll tax x 100 and so many unhappy, many (remainers and brexiteers who hate the deal) angry with outcome, particularly how forced into signing up to that hated outcome? A disaster Not just in terms of May’s legacy personally, but a disastrous impact on the Conservative party going forward with this burning grievance hung around its neck, long after the lady is gone.
    Could you let me know what outcome is loved by more than about 20% of the people?
    Quite right. The solid arguments need to be what to do instead of TMs deal. All deals, and none, of course have winners and losers.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    Sounds excellent , enjoy
    WE have grandchildren over so it is baked onions , then fried chicken in breadcrumbs , saute pots , lots of greens. After it will be chocolate fest and a film.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,042
    nico67 said:

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    Sounds yum.

    However, given the choice of that feast or a bag of chips and a [MODERATED], which would you choose???
    Who says he’s not getting that , I guessed the moderated word. Although not sure he’ll be able to get off the sofa after all that food !
    "Can of Dandelion and Burdock" was what I was thinking of. Honest!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    I'll take Occam's razor. I'll have has aftershave as well, and his bergamot scented post shave wipes with aloe vera and allantoin while I am at it.

    When an accusation is made by a political opponent it is always a good idea to be skeptical about it. This is especially the case when it is so convenient and tempting. The left in general including the Labour Party do have a tendency to be a bit pious and sanctimonious about racism. So who wouldn't enjoy exposing their hypocrisy on this matter? I'd quite enjoy it myself.

    But anti-semitism is quite a serious charge to make. It really does require some pretty strong evidence. There have been a few dribs and drabs of this. The most clear cut was the councillor in Littlehampton. But that one was dealt with extremely quickly and effectively, and so doesn't really fit the story.

    I'll take it seriously when there is something other than innuendo.

    In the meantime just so you know, I am generally sympathetic to Labour but I am not a member and I don't even vote for them that often.

    You missed a rather important point in my post: many of the 'political opponents' accusing Labour of it, and even Corbyn of being an anti-Semite, are Labour people!

    There's loads more than innuendo. I gave you a far from comprehensive list the other day. If you can read that and not believe that Labour has a problem, and that Corbyn's a bit whiffy, then goodness help you.

    I also see you've forgotten about Livingstone ...
    I am not interested enough to take sides in Labour's internal arguments. Indeed I'd rather they didn't have any internal arguments. But it is inescapable that Labour is somewhat divided at the moment. Indeed that the internal critics of the leadership have suddenly discovered anti-semitism of which they were previously unaware when they were running the show is one of the main reasons I am so skeptical. The line used to be that the left of the party were a liability because the causes they support were unpopular. You know, nationalisation, leaving the EU etc. Now it turns out that the left's favoured policies are not a turn off, and may even be appealing, suddenly it is discovered that these same people have a 'problem' with anti-semitism.

    Well maybe they do, but I don't apologise for being skeptical.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387

    I'll take Occam's razor. I'll have has aftershave as well, and his bergamot scented post shave wipes with aloe vera and allantoin while I am at it.

    When an accusation is made by a political opponent it is always a good idea to be skeptical about it. This is especially the case when it is so convenient and tempting. The left in general including the Labour Party do have a tendency to be a bit pious and sanctimonious about racism. So who wouldn't enjoy exposing their hypocrisy on this matter? I'd quite enjoy it myself.

    But anti-semitism is quite a serious charge to make. It really does require some pretty strong evidence. There have been a few dribs and drabs of this. The most clear cut was the councillor in Littlehampton. But that one was dealt with extremely quickly and effectively, and so doesn't really fit the story.

    I'll take it seriously when there is something other than innuendo.

    In the meantime just so you know, I am generally sympathetic to Labour but I am not a member and I don't even vote for them that often.

    You missed a rather important point in my post: many of the 'political opponents' accusing Labour of it, and even Corbyn of being an anti-Semite, are Labour people!

    There's loads more than innuendo. I gave you a far from comprehensive list the other day. If you can read that and not believe that Labour has a problem, and that Corbyn's a bit whiffy, then goodness help you.

    I also see you've forgotten about Livingstone ...
    The complainants aren't real Labour. They're Tories.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    rcs1000 said:

    dots said:

    GIN1138 said:

    This time next week we could have the WA signed off by Parliament and the extension to 30th June signed off by the EU.

    Hopefully Theresa will announce her resignation as Con leader by the end of the month and we can spend the next 2-3 months up to 30th June getting a new Con leader and PM followed by a new cabinet and a general election.

    That would then be followed by a new LOTO and a new Speaker. Plus we know we're getting a new Lib-Dem leader soon.

    2019 could be the year of refresh and renewal.

    A Fishing For Leave spokesman said: “The terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are an existential threat to fishing and a total betrayal of Brexit and Britain. It means a second surrender of our industry and coastal communities and places a constitutional bomb under democracy.”

    Anyone who says MPs are just playing games, risking Brexit and need to see sense and back May’s deal (such as the Sun’s editorial today) that’s actually deeply patronising. It’s lazy it’s insulting. At both wings of the tory party it is entirely honest to be opposing May’s flawed deal on principle.

    Just because you love it does not mean an opponent of something is not in principled position.

    In fact anyone spouting such patronising claptrap (such as the sun, Mails, Expresses editorials, some posters here) are typically blinkered about what happens when this now wins. There’s Solid argument May’s deal is not at all popular amongst the representatives, nor popular outside amongst the people as well, not popular even under coercion, so can politics and the country actually come together after forcing this through with a gun to the head? good comes once Bullying wins over principle?

    If MV3 is a success, what sort of success if its like poll tax x 100 and so many unhappy, many (remainers and brexiteers who hate the deal) angry with outcome, particularly how forced into signing up to that hated outcome? A disaster Not just in terms of May’s legacy personally, but a disastrous impact on the Conservative party going forward with this burning grievance hung around its neck, long after the lady is gone.
    Could you let me know what outcome is loved by more than about 20% of the people?
    Can kicking.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    It is inescapable that Labour is somewhat divided at the moment.

    That's truly gorgeous dry understatement.

    (I would point out that there was an awful lot of comment about anti-semitism in the left under Blair, for example the sillier things Livingstone said about a Jewish journalist behaving like 'a concentration camp guard.' The key difference was that as they were a bunch of silly little nobodies nobody sensible or important paid much attention to them. Just as we all ignore Nick Griffin when he behaves like a third rate racist cock. Now they are running the show, their overt racism and pathetic attempts to dodge responsibility are much more important.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,724

    I'll take Occam's razor. I'll have has aftershave as well, and his bergamot scented post shave wipes with aloe vera and allantoin while I am at it.

    When an accusation is made by a political opponent it is always a good idea to be skeptical about it. This is especially the case when it is so convenient and tempting. The left in general including the Labour Party do have a tendency to be a bit pious and sanctimonious about racism. So who wouldn't enjoy exposing their hypocrisy on this matter? I'd quite enjoy it myself.

    But anti-semitism is quite a serious charge to make. It really does require some pretty strong evidence. There have been a few dribs and drabs of this. The most clear cut was the councillor in Littlehampton. But that one was dealt with extremely quickly and effectively, and so doesn't really fit the story.

    I'll take it seriously when there is something other than innuendo.

    In the meantime just so you know, I am generally sympathetic to Labour but I am not a member and I don't even vote for them that often.

    You missed a rather important point in my post: many of the 'political opponents' accusing Labour of it, and even Corbyn of being an anti-Semite, are Labour people!

    There's loads more than innuendo. I gave you a far from comprehensive list the other day. If you can read that and not believe that Labour has a problem, and that Corbyn's a bit whiffy, then goodness help you.

    I also see you've forgotten about Livingstone ...
    I am not interested enough to take sides in Labour's internal arguments. Indeed I'd rather they didn't have any internal arguments. But it is inescapable that Labour is somewhat divided at the moment. Indeed that the internal critics of the leadership have suddenly discovered anti-semitism of which they were previously unaware when they were running the show is one of the main reasons I am so skeptical. The line used to be that the left of the party were a liability because the causes they support were unpopular. You know, nationalisation, leaving the EU etc. Now it turns out that the left's favoured policies are not a turn off, and may even be appealing, suddenly it is discovered that these same people have a 'problem' with anti-semitism.

    Well maybe they do, but I don't apologise for being skeptical.
    Point 1) They were well aware of it.
    Point 2) It is at a much greater in scale now.
    Point 3) The stench reaches up to the very top of the party.
    Point 4) The die-hard Corynites (not you, BTW) deny and excuse anti-Semitism.
    Point 5) Labour has become a fertile breeding ground for anti-Jewish rhetoric and feelings, attracting more such rhetoric and comments.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    Nice work. I was chef today.

    STARTER:
    NO

    MAIN:
    SLIGHTLY BURNT BAKED POTATO
    WITH
    MEDIUM SPICED CHICKEN AND CASHEW NUT CURRY
    PLUS
    APPLE AND BLACKCURRANT SQUASH TO DRINK

    DESSERT:
    CADBURY'S CREME EGG AND CADBURY'S CARAMEL EGG
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    eek said:
    Ooo no no no no. It has to be

    RELEASE THE KRAKEN!!
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Freggles said:

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    Nice work. I was chef today.

    STARTER:
    NO

    MAIN:
    SLIGHTLY BURNT BAKED POTATO
    WITH
    MEDIUM SPICED CHICKEN AND CASHEW NUT CURRY
    PLUS
    APPLE AND BLACKCURRANT SQUASH TO DRINK

    DESSERT:
    CADBURY'S CREME EGG AND CADBURY'S CARAMEL EGG
    How the other half live!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,628

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    That's a coincidence, Morrisons meal deals have those as options.

    :wink:
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Freggles said:

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    Nice work. I was chef today.

    STARTER:
    NO

    MAIN:
    SLIGHTLY BURNT BAKED POTATO
    WITH
    MEDIUM SPICED CHICKEN AND CASHEW NUT CURRY
    PLUS
    APPLE AND BLACKCURRANT SQUASH TO DRINK

    DESSERT:
    CADBURY'S CREME EGG AND CADBURY'S CARAMEL EGG
    How the other half live!
    BUT remember I'm middle class, just ask Owen Jones.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Not been a good day today with the slaughter in New Zealand and the implications that this is a connected worldwide terror group

    And we have just learned that my wife's cousin's younger son has died due to a rare very aggessive cancer at 46, leaving a wife and three children. He only found out a few weeks ago.

    It reminds us that everyday someone is experiencing a tragedy in their lives while our politicians rant and rave over something that is so very much less important

    I am very sorry to hear that.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Andrew said:

    Time for some consequences for those MPs playing silly games:


    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1106611410245689344

    Absolutely. And if the government falls they could not stand in the GE as Tories.
    But I don't see how there would be a stronger justification for that than was the case in respect of failing to support MV2 this week.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    edited March 2019

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    You have not mentioned the wine. That is always good humoured bragging rights on this forum.
    Please don't mention wine. I am entering week two of an alcohol break :’(
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    justin124 said:

    Not been a good day today with the slaughter in New Zealand and the implications that this is a connected worldwide terror group

    And we have just learned that my wife's cousin's younger son has died due to a rare very aggessive cancer at 46, leaving a wife and three children. He only found out a few weeks ago.

    It reminds us that everyday someone is experiencing a tragedy in their lives while our politicians rant and rave over something that is so very much less important

    I am very sorry to hear that.
    Likewise. Life can be very very hard at times.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    edited March 2019
    eek said:
    I was watching Countdown as a student in 2001 and got both MANTICORE and its anagram CREMATION as nine-letter words on one round. It's all been downhill from there, if I'm honest.

    Edited extra bit: very sorry to hear that news, Big G.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,136
    dots said:

    GIN1138 said:

    This time next week we could have the WA signed off by Parliament and the extension to 30th June signed off by the EU.

    Hopefully Theresa will announce her resignation as Con leader by the end of the month and we can spend the next 2-3 months up to 30th June getting a new Con leader and PM followed by a new cabinet and a general election.

    That would then be followed by a new LOTO and a new Speaker. Plus we know we're getting a new Lib-Dem leader soon.

    2019 could be the year of refresh and renewal.

    A Fishing For Leave spokesman said: “The terms of the Withdrawal Agreement are an existential threat to fishing and a total betrayal of Brexit and Britain. It means a second surrender of our industry and coastal communities and places a constitutional bomb under democracy.”

    Anyone who says MPs are just playing games, risking Brexit and need to see sense and back May’s deal (such as the Sun’s editorial today) that’s actually deeply patronising. It’s lazy it’s insulting. At both wings of the tory party it is entirely honest to be opposing May’s flawed deal on principle.

    Just because you love it does not mean an opponent of something is not in principled position.

    In fact anyone spouting such patronising claptrap (such as the sun, Mails, Expresses editorials, some posters here) are typically blinkered about what happens when this now wins. There’s Solid argument May’s deal is not at all popular amongst the representatives, nor popular outside amongst the people as well, not popular even under coercion, so can politics and the country actually come together after forcing this through with a gun to the head? good comes once Bullying wins over principle?

    If MV3 is a success, what sort of success if its like poll tax x 100 and so many unhappy, many (remainers and brexiteers who hate the deal) angry with outcome, particularly how forced into signing up to that hated outcome? A disaster Not just in terms of May’s legacy personally, but a disastrous impact on the Conservative party going forward with this burning grievance hung around its neck, long after the lady is gone.
    Unfortunately, the question is not whether the course of action is any good, the question is whether it is the best of the obtainable alternatives. At some point we will be leaving the EU. Our job is to arrange the best path out. But Leavers prefer to stay in their comfort zone of "NASTY EU!" and Remainers clutch their "2ND REFERENDUM NOW!" comfort blanket. This is not conducive to good decision making and has the secondary and entirely malign effect of breeding a generation of voters who think "failing and blaming" is a substutute for actual achievement.

  • justin124 said:

    Andrew said:

    Time for some consequences for those MPs playing silly games:


    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1106611410245689344

    Absolutely. And if the government falls they could not stand in the GE as Tories.
    But I don't see how there would be a stronger justification for that than was the case in respect of failing to support MV2 this week.
    Because MV2 was before No Deal took a kicking in the HoC, now it is after.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Lord Pannick QC has said it is legally possible to use Article 62 but whether it’s politically acceptable is a different matter .

    He was the lead QC in the Gina Miller case and trounced the government so perhaps some weight should be given to his opinion .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    justin124 said:

    Not been a good day today with the slaughter in New Zealand and the implications that this is a connected worldwide terror group

    And we have just learned that my wife's cousin's younger son has died due to a rare very aggessive cancer at 46, leaving a wife and three children. He only found out a few weeks ago.

    It reminds us that everyday someone is experiencing a tragedy in their lives while our politicians rant and rave over something that is so very much less important

    I am very sorry to hear that.
    Agreed. Poor Big G and Mrs G have had a pretty shocking day. Deepest sympathy to the family.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,136

    Not been a good day today with the slaughter in New Zealand and the implications that this is a connected worldwide terror group

    And we have just learned that my wife's cousin's younger son has died due to a rare very aggessive cancer at 46, leaving a wife and three children. He only found out a few weeks ago.

    It reminds us that everyday someone is experiencing a tragedy in their lives while our politicians rant and rave over something that is so very much less important

    Oh Lord, Big_G, that's awful. Major sympathies.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    nico67 said:

    Lord Pannick QC has said it is legally possible to use Article 62 but whether it’s politically acceptable is a different matter .

    He was the lead QC in the Gina Miller case and trounced the government so perhaps some weight should be given to his opinion .

    So that tells us who Lord Pannick is. But what is article 62 and why does it matter?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,261
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Nigelb said:
    But not far from the madding crowd.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,261
    nico67 said:

    Lord Pannick QC has said it is legally possible to use Article 62 but whether it’s politically acceptable is a different matter .

    He was the lead QC in the Gina Miller case and trounced the government so perhaps some weight should be given to his opinion .

    His legal opinion. His political one is worth as much as mine.

    Article 62 use would be about as politically acceptable as no deal Brexit - but far less likely to happen.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    I'll take Occam's razor. I'll have has aftershave as well, and his bergamot scented post shave wipes with aloe vera and allantoin while I am at it.

    When an accusation is made by a political opponent it is always a good idea to be skeptical about it. This is especially the case when it is so convenient and tempting. The left in general including the Labour Party do have a tendency to be a bit pious and sanctimonious about racism.

    But anti-semitism is quite a serious charge to make. It really does require some pretty strong evidence. There have been a few dribs and drabs of this. The most clear cut was the councillor in Littlehampton. But that one was dealt with extremely quickly and effectively, and so doesn't really fit the story.

    I'll take it seriously when there is something other than innuendo.

    In the meantime just so you know, I am generally sympathetic to Labour but I am not a member and I don't even vote for them that often.

    You missed a rather important point in my post: many of the 'political opponents' accusing Labour of it, and even Corbyn of being an anti-Semite, are Labour people!

    There's loads more than innuendo. I gave you a far from comprehensive list the other day. If you can read that and not believe that Labour has a problem, and that Corbyn's a bit whiffy, then goodness help you.

    I also see you've forgotten about Livingstone ...
    I am not interested enough to take sides in Labour's internal arguments. Indeed I'd rather they didn't have any internal arguments. But it is inescapable that Labour is somewhat divided at the moment. Indeed that the internal critics of the leadership have suddenly discovered anti-semitism of which they were previously unaware when they were running the show is one of the main reasons I am so skeptical. The line used to be that the left of the party were a liability because the causes they support were unpopular. You know, nationalisation, leaving the EU etc. Now it turns out that the left's favoured policies are not a turn off, and may even be appealing, suddenly it is discovered that these same people have a 'problem' with anti-semitism.

    Well maybe they do, but I don't apologise for being skeptical.
    Point 1) They were well aware of it.
    Point 2) It is at a much greater in scale now.
    Point 3) The stench reaches up to the very top of the party.
    Point 4) The die-hard Corynites (not you, BTW) deny and excuse anti-Semitism.
    Point 5) Labour has become a fertile breeding ground for anti-Jewish rhetoric and feelings, attracting more such rhetoric and comments.
    None of those things are points. Number 3 is particularly hyperbolic while conveying no information whatever.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,261
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
    A seriously obscure pun.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    When the May Deal does pass - thanks to the votes of MPs who said they would never, ever vote for it - how much money would they have cost the country in wasted No Deal preparations?

    I thought you believed in Keynesian stimulus

    Isn’t this the modern equivalent of digging holes in the ground only to fill them in?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    edited March 2019
    It looks like any extension is going to require EU Parlaimentry elections
    https://twitter.com/alexebarker/status/1106632167235481600
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,136

    Freggles said:

    The Missus has been cookin' - here's mi tea tonight:

    STARTER:
    CRISPY DUCK SALAD
    WITH
    HOISIN AND ORANGE DRESSING


    MAINS:
    MAPLE SYRUP AND SOY-MARINADED SALMON
    WITH
    A GINGER AND CHILLI BROTH
    AND
    DIM SUM
    PLUS
    EGG-FRIED RICE


    DESSERT:
    BLOOD ORANGE AND APRICOT SOUFFLE
    WITH
    BACO DI ROMA BISCUITS CONTAINING ORANGE AND ROSEMARY


    CHEESEBOARD

    Nice work. I was chef today.

    STARTER:
    NO

    MAIN:
    SLIGHTLY BURNT BAKED POTATO
    WITH
    MEDIUM SPICED CHICKEN AND CASHEW NUT CURRY
    PLUS
    APPLE AND BLACKCURRANT SQUASH TO DRINK

    DESSERT:
    CADBURY'S CREME EGG AND CADBURY'S CARAMEL EGG
    How the other half live!
    STARTER
    BAG OF WOTSITS

    MAIN COURSE
    M&S PEKING DUCK WRAP

    AFTERS
    BOTTLE OF 600 ML PEPSI MAX

    WINE
    UNOPENED SAINSBURY'S GIN AND TONIC THAT SOMEBODY LEFT ON THE TRAIN*1

    TONIGHTS ENTERTAINMENT
    SOAKING MY FEET WHEN I GET OFF THIS [REDACTED] TRAIN AND GET HOME.

    * 1 this is a true thing.
  • justin124 said:

    Not been a good day today with the slaughter in New Zealand and the implications that this is a connected worldwide terror group

    And we have just learned that my wife's cousin's younger son has died due to a rare very aggessive cancer at 46, leaving a wife and three children. He only found out a few weeks ago.

    It reminds us that everyday someone is experiencing a tragedy in their lives while our politicians rant and rave over something that is so very much less important

    I am very sorry to hear that.
    Thank you Justin. It does put politics into the shade somewhat
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited March 2019
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
    A seriously obscure pun.
    I was attempting to find desperate remedies.
  • Drutt said:

    eek said:
    I was watching Countdown as a student in 2001 and got both MANTICORE and its anagram CREMATION as nine-letter words on one round. It's all been downhill from there, if I'm honest.

    Edited extra bit: very sorry to hear that news, Big G.
    Thank you. Very sad with 3 young children
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited March 2019
    Interesting, but far from definitive. The writer seems unfamiliar with the idea that character and interpersonal skills, rather than solely intellect, are another way to approach problem-solving . His candidacy seems to be based on trust of his interpersonal skills and intuition, rather than his manifesto. That can only be tested out with a period in government, ofcourse, more than with a cerebral character and his pre-existing manifesto.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,136
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
    A seriously obscure pun.

    But Jude-icious.
  • ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    Not been a good day today with the slaughter in New Zealand and the implications that this is a connected worldwide terror group

    And we have just learned that my wife's cousin's younger son has died due to a rare very aggessive cancer at 46, leaving a wife and three children. He only found out a few weeks ago.

    It reminds us that everyday someone is experiencing a tragedy in their lives while our politicians rant and rave over something that is so very much less important

    I am very sorry to hear that.
    Agreed. Poor Big G and Mrs G have had a pretty shocking day. Deepest sympathy to the family.
    Thank you. It is so sad for many tonight
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,186

    justin124 said:

    Not been a good day today with the slaughter in New Zealand and the implications that this is a connected worldwide terror group

    And we have just learned that my wife's cousin's younger son has died due to a rare very aggessive cancer at 46, leaving a wife and three children. He only found out a few weeks ago.

    It reminds us that everyday someone is experiencing a tragedy in their lives while our politicians rant and rave over something that is so very much less important

    I am very sorry to hear that.
    Thank you Justin. It does put politics into the shade somewhat
    Condolences also to your wife's family BigG
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,261
    edited March 2019
    Edit... apologies to Big_G for punning along.

    I just noticed his news. Sincere condolences.

  • viewcode said:

    Not been a good day today with the slaughter in New Zealand and the implications that this is a connected worldwide terror group

    And we have just learned that my wife's cousin's younger son has died due to a rare very aggessive cancer at 46, leaving a wife and three children. He only found out a few weeks ago.

    It reminds us that everyday someone is experiencing a tragedy in their lives while our politicians rant and rave over something that is so very much less important

    Oh Lord, Big_G, that's awful. Major sympathies.
    You are so kind. PB at its very best today
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,042
    eek said:

    It looks like any extension is going to require EU Parlaimentry elections
    https://twitter.com/alexebarker/status/1106632167235481600

    I do hope so. I like d'Hondt. A proper PR system when the constituencies are big enough. Much better than that AV rubbish. Or STV - that really is nonsense on stilts, what with all that surplus votes business and taking a week to finish the count.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,186
    edited March 2019
    On Brexit the interesting news is Liddington's confirmation that if MV3 fails the Government will enable votes on alternative options on 25th March e.g. Norway Plus, Customs Union, EUref2 etc. The EU will also likely want to see the result of such a vote before confirming the extension of Article 50
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,218

    eek said:

    It looks like any extension is going to require EU Parlaimentry elections
    https://twitter.com/alexebarker/status/1106632167235481600

    I do hope so. I like d'Hondt. A proper PR system when the constituencies are big enough. Much better than that AV rubbish. Or STV - that really is nonsense on stilts, what with all that surplus votes business and taking a week to finish the count.
    Will you be voting for Labour :) ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    edited March 2019
    I see Dr Fox has been hard at work on major trade deals:

    https://twitter.com/LiamFox/status/1106190636850561025?s=19

    Though actually it merely appears to be a continuation of existing arrangements via the EU.

    Sorry to hear the bad news Big G. Cancer at a young age is often an aggressive form.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    Charles said:

    When the May Deal does pass - thanks to the votes of MPs who said they would never, ever vote for it - how much money would they have cost the country in wasted No Deal preparations?

    I thought you believed in Keynesian stimulus

    Isn’t this the modern equivalent of digging holes in the ground only to fill them in?
    .. or, aptly in this case, Follies.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
    A seriously obscure pun.

    But Jude-icious.
    No, ydoethur only trumpets his major successes.

    OK, you've lost me there. Which Hardy does that refer to?

    (I will admit I know his short stories rather better than his novels, which I find overlong and tedious. In fact I think I've only ever read one right the way through.)
  • HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Not been a good day today with the slaughter in New Zealand and the implications that this is a connected worldwide terror group

    And we have just learned that my wife's cousin's younger son has died due to a rare very aggessive cancer at 46, leaving a wife and three children. He only found out a few weeks ago.

    It reminds us that everyday someone is experiencing a tragedy in their lives while our politicians rant and rave over something that is so very much less important

    I am very sorry to hear that.
    Thank you Justin. It does put politics into the shade somewhat
    Condolences also to your wife's family BigG
    Thank you Hyufd
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,136
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
    A seriously obscure pun.

    But Jude-icious.
    No, ydoethur only trumpets his major successes.

    It's all that time spent under the greenwood tree... :)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,261
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
    A seriously obscure pun.

    But Jude-icious.
    No, ydoethur only trumpets his major successes.

    OK, you've lost me there. Which Hardy does that refer to?

    (I will admit I know his short stories rather better than his novels, which I find overlong and tedious. In fact I think I've only ever read one right the way through.)
    The Trumpet-Major.

    There was a deal of his stuff on the syllabus when I studied English. I loathed his novels; some of the poetry is rather good, though.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
    A seriously obscure pun.
    I was attempting to find desperate remedies.
    It’ll be hard times if you do.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
    A seriously obscure pun.
    I was attempting to find desperate remedies.
    It’ll be hard times if you do.
    These are puns about Hardy, sir. Why the dickens would you change the subject?
  • Foxy said:

    I see Dr Fox has been hard at work on major trade deals:

    https://twitter.com/LiamFox/status/1106190636850561025?s=19

    Though actually it merely appears to be a continuation of existing arrangements via the EU.

    Sorry to hear the bad news Big G. Cancer at a young age is often an aggressive form.

    Thanks Dr Foxy - it is a bitter blow to happen in a few weeks
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
    A seriously obscure pun.

    But Jude-icious.
    No, ydoethur only trumpets his major successes.

    OK, you've lost me there. Which Hardy does that refer to?

    (I will admit I know his short stories rather better than his novels, which I find overlong and tedious. In fact I think I've only ever read one right the way through.)
    The Trumpet-Major.

    There was a deal of his stuff on the syllabus when I studied English. I loathed his novels; some of the poetry is rather good, though.
    OK, thanks. Not heard of that one before.
  • Nigelb said:

    Edit... apologies to Big_G for punning along.

    I just noticed his news. Sincere condolences.

    Thank you
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,136
    No independence for Wessex until the following:

    * A majority is achieved in referenda in Wessex. Essex, Sussex and Middlesex
    * They tell me - and I mean this quite sincerely - what the arse they have done with Norex? There has to have been one, surely.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,725
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    I remember them standing in the Eighties.
    I think you're just Tessing us.
    A seriously obscure pun.

    But Jude-icious.
    No, ydoethur only trumpets his major successes.

    OK, you've lost me there. Which Hardy does that refer to?

    (I will admit I know his short stories rather better than his novels, which I find overlong and tedious. In fact I think I've only ever read one right the way through.)
    Apparently taking a break to read a French magazine helps. It’s called the Nouvel Obs cure.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    viewcode said:

    No independence for Wessex until the following:

    * A majority is achieved in referenda in Wessex. Essex, Sussex and Middlesex
    * They tell me - and I mean this quite sincerely - what the arse they have done with Norex? There has to have been one, surely.

    It wasn't called Norsex, but Northumbria, referring to a geographical feature (the Humber) rather than the people.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,136
    Nigelb said:
    That's quite a good response. Please accept this Laurel. And a Hardy handshake... :)
This discussion has been closed.