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  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited March 2019

    Chris said:

    I don't understand the view that it's a choice between the New Deal and No Brexit.

    No Deal remains the legal default.

    What do people see as the "no Brexit" route away from that? A referendum? Revocation? Given the situation within the Tory party, how would either be achieved?

    Parliament has a vote on whether they want an extension instead of No Deal. They do. TMay dutifully shuffles off to Brussels and asks the 27 if they will agree to this rather than inconveniencing their citizens and businesses with No Deal, and potentially further bollocksing up an already fragile recovery. They do.

    At the end of the extension period, repeat.

    At some point in the future, possibly after a new election, something may shift enough to make the deal, a referendum or revocation an option. But until that happens, just keep extending.
    Did you not hear Juncker? There will be no more renegotiation, so there is no basis for the EU to accept an extension.
    They have two reasons to agree to an extension:

    1. They'd be hit badly by the chaos of us crashing out with no deal. At the very least they'd want some more time to put in place further mitigation measures (they haven't done much yet). Anyway, disaster deferred is always preferable for a politician than disaster next week.

    2. Extension for a 'political event' (GE or referendum) could well lead to us not leaving after all, which is by far their preferred outcome.
  • Tim Shipman has deleted the codpiece tweet.

    Here’s a screenshot.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875
    May really has to go today. She has done her best. It wasn't very good but she undoubtedly tried hard. But its time. It really is.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Chris said:

    Sterling now seems to be in freefall. Which very much suggests that the markets aren't thinking that No Deal is off the table.

    Sterling was lower yesterday morning. I agree the risk of no deal is real, but essentially nothing has changed on that score.
  • dotsdots Posts: 615

    dots said:

    Sean_F said:

    dots said:


    dots said:

    GIN1138 said:

    DavidL said:

    Sporting Index have a spread bet market on the number of Ayes, currently at 268-278. In the last vote the result was 202.

    My gut reaction is that they've pitched it about right, but this could be very volatile depending on what Cox says and (most importantly) on what the DUP decide.

    Is Onasanya suspended or is she able to vote on her tag?
    She can vote I think but not sure what happens if the vote is beyond her curfew?

    Wouldn't it be hilarious if the police rocked up and arrested her for breaking her parole conditions? :D
    Pointless wondering about half a dozen independents for this vote it’s not even close. With DUP, Davis, Mogg, now boris too, as well Tory remainers and soft brexiteers and 30mor 40 labour all voting with May sporting index Ayes looks about a hundred short.
    Where are you getting these figures from. Cox advice looks very honest but not sure it helps. However, ERG facing the almost certain loss of brexit if this falls may add to their thoughts
    I’m getting the numbers from your last line. Ignore all the newsfeeds. This is nothing to do with legal matters it’s a political vote tonight. Boles and gove and now Big G has summed it up well. Take the brexit offered to you today or see it watered down and put to second referendum. ERG haven’t had to make their mind up in such a way till today. It’s absolutely obvious how will they vote in forced choice.
    It's obvious that many do not want a Brexit that is not their perfect Brexit.

    Strange, but that's human nature.
    Where do you get the obvious from? Never heard of poker?

    Tonight you see how to win at poker.

    Anyone who thinks may Deal is dead, who think you can count the political cards, by 8 tonight you will be very surprised.
    Take what's on offer. But May and all her chosen ones get cleaned out.

    Then go in HARD on the trade negotiations. And be prepared to walk away from it.
    Exactly. Simples whilst everyone else over thinking it.

    Politics is putting the pressure on (convincing people you mean it) and at the crunch getting best deal for yourself (shamelessly).

    Take a look at the pound and betting odds flying around, there’s money to be made here this afternoon.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    A GE is unlikely to solve anything.

    Were I the EU I would say that the only basis I'd agree to an extension is for a vote on the Deal, as agreed as of last night, or Remain.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Chris said:

    I don't understand the view that it's a choice between the New Deal and No Brexit.

    No Deal remains the legal default.

    What do people see as the "no Brexit" route away from that? A referendum? Revocation? Given the situation within the Tory party, how would either be achieved?

    Parliament has a vote on whether they want an extension instead of No Deal. They do. TMay dutifully shuffles off to Brussels and asks the 27 if they will agree to this rather than inconveniencing their citizens and businesses with No Deal, and potentially further bollocksing up an already fragile recovery. They do.

    At the end of the extension period, repeat.

    At some point in the future, possibly after a new election, something may shift enough to make the deal, a referendum or revocation an option. But until that happens, just keep extending.
    Did you not hear Juncker? There will be no more renegotiation, so there is no basis for the EU to accept an extension. There is no majority for a 2nd ref, and there is no majority for revocation.
    Juncker said that consistently from November til last night too. Yet he still went ahead with last nights negotiations.

    If May goes then her successor will negotiate.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Chris said:

    I don't understand the view that it's a choice between the New Deal and No Brexit.

    No Deal remains the legal default.

    What do people see as the "no Brexit" route away from that? A referendum? Revocation? Given the situation within the Tory party, how would either be achieved?

    Parliament has a vote on whether they want an extension instead of No Deal. They do. TMay dutifully shuffles off to Brussels and asks the 27 if they will agree to this rather than inconveniencing their citizens and businesses with No Deal, and potentially further bollocksing up an already fragile recovery. They do.

    At the end of the extension period, repeat.

    At some point in the future, possibly after a new election, something may shift enough to make the deal, a referendum or revocation an option. But until that happens, just keep extending.
    Did you not hear Juncker? There will be no more renegotiation, so there is no basis for the EU to accept an extension. There is no majority for a 2nd ref, and there is no majority for revocation.
    A renegotiation isn't the only basis for the EU to accept an extension. There's also good, old-fashioned crisis avoidance.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    DavidL said:

    May really has to go today. She has done her best. It wasn't very good but she undoubtedly tried hard. But its time. It really is.

    I don't think she will resign. It looks like she wants to carry on whatever happens.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,818
    So the trajectory for the next few days is roughly as follows?:

    Parliament: we don’t like this deal

    EU: this is the final deal

    Parliament: we don’t want to leave without a deal but we don’t like this deal

    EU: this is the final deal

    Parliament: please can you give us some more time so we can renegotiate the deal?

    EU: erm.......
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Cyclefree said:

    A GE is unlikely to solve anything.

    Were I the EU I would say that the only basis I'd agree to an extension is for a vote on the Deal, as agreed as of last night, or Remain.

    But the “Remain” question has been asked and answered.

    Surely it’s “Deal” vs “No Deal” that is on the table?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    dots said:

    dots said:

    Sean_F said:

    dots said:


    dots said:

    GIN1138 said:

    DavidL said:

    Sporting Index have a spread bet market on the number of Ayes, currently at 268-278. In the last vote the result was 202.

    My gut reaction is that they've pitched it about right, but this could be very volatile depending on what Cox says and (most importantly) on what the DUP decide.

    Is Onasanya suspended or is she able to vote on her tag?
    She can vote I think but not sure what happens if the vote is beyond her curfew?

    Wouldn't it be hilarious if the police rocked up and arrested her for breaking her parole conditions? :D
    Pointless wondering about half a dozen independents for this vote it’s not even close. With DUP, Davis, Mogg, now boris too, as well Tory remainers and soft brexiteers and 30mor 40 labour all voting with May sporting index Ayes looks about a hundred short.
    Where are you getting these figures from. Cox advice looks very honest but not sure it helps. However, ERG facing the almost certain loss of brexit if this falls may add to their thoughts
    I’m getting the numbers from your last line. Ignore all the newsfeeds. This is nothing to do with legal matters it’s a political vote tonight. Boles and gove and now Big G has summed it up well. Take the brexit offered to you today or see it watered down and put to second referendum. ERG haven’t had to make their mind up in such a way till today. It’s absolutely obvious how will they vote in forced choice.
    It's obvious that many do not want a Brexit that is not their perfect Brexit.

    Strange, but that's human nature.
    Where do you get the obvious from? Never heard of poker?

    Tonight you see how to win at poker.

    Anyone who thinks may Deal is dead, who think you can count the political cards, by 8 tonight you will be very surprised.
    Take what's on offer. But May and all her chosen ones get cleaned out.

    Then go in HARD on the trade negotiations. And be prepared to walk away from it.
    Exactly. Simples whilst everyone else over thinking it.

    Politics is putting the pressure on (convincing people you mean it) and at the crunch getting best deal for yourself (shamelessly).

    Take a look at the pound and betting odds flying around, there’s money to be made here this afternoon.
    You'll be taking the 6s about the deal passing then? Best of luck.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Cyclefree said:

    A GE is unlikely to solve anything.

    Were I the EU I would say that the only basis I'd agree to an extension is for a vote on the Deal, as agreed as of last night, or Remain.

    But the “Remain” question has been asked and answered.

    Surely it’s “Deal” vs “No Deal” that is on the table?
    I'm not sure any referendum could be supported but deal or no deal is the only possible option. I think parliament should still be able to come together for a deal.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875
    AndyJS said:

    DavidL said:

    May really has to go today. She has done her best. It wasn't very good but she undoubtedly tried hard. But its time. It really is.

    I don't think she will resign. It looks like she wants to carry on whatever happens.
    I think we should be past caring about what she wants.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752

    Chris said:

    I don't understand the view that it's a choice between the New Deal and No Brexit.

    No Deal remains the legal default.

    What do people see as the "no Brexit" route away from that? A referendum? Revocation? Given the situation within the Tory party, how would either be achieved?

    Parliament has a vote on whether they want an extension instead of No Deal. They do. TMay dutifully shuffles off to Brussels and asks the 27 if they will agree to this rather than inconveniencing their citizens and businesses with No Deal, and potentially further bollocksing up an already fragile recovery. They do.

    At the end of the extension period, repeat.

    At some point in the future, possibly after a new election, something may shift enough to make the deal, a referendum or revocation an option. But until that happens, just keep extending.
    Did you not hear Juncker? There will be no more renegotiation, so there is no basis for the EU to accept an extension.
    They have two reasons to agree to an extension:

    1. They'd be hit badly by the chaos of us crashing out with no deal. At the very least they'd want some more time to put in place further mitigation measures (they haven't done much yet). Anyway, disaster deferred is always preferable for a politician than disaster next week.

    2. Extension for a 'political event' (GE or referendum) could well lead to us not leaving after all, which is by far their preferred outcome.
    2 maybe, but regarding 1, if the deal is heavily defeated today it must be clear there's no prospect of the present House of Commons agreeing to anything they're willing to offer.

    I don't think they'll refuse a seven-week extension if we ask for one - or maybe even a three-month extensions - but I very much doubt there will be anything more after that.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    AndyJS said:

    DavidL said:

    May really has to go today. She has done her best. It wasn't very good but she undoubtedly tried hard. But its time. It really is.

    I don't think she will resign. It looks like she wants to carry on whatever happens.
    She should have held the meaningful vote in December and resigned after losing then. But I think this is the end of the road and she can properly resign now. She has done her duty and if she has been found wanting, so be it. There is nothing more she can do for the country.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    Cyclefree said:

    A GE is unlikely to solve anything.

    Were I the EU I would say that the only basis I'd agree to an extension is for a vote on the Deal, as agreed as of last night, or Remain.

    But the “Remain” question has been asked and answered.

    Surely it’s “Deal” vs “No Deal” that is on the table?
    That ought to be the question but it wouldn't be.
  • tottenhamWCtottenhamWC Posts: 352

    Cyclefree said:

    A GE is unlikely to solve anything.

    Were I the EU I would say that the only basis I'd agree to an extension is for a vote on the Deal, as agreed as of last night, or Remain.

    But the “Remain” question has been asked and answered.

    Surely it’s “Deal” vs “No Deal” that is on the table?
    Chance of that is approximately zero. Why the hell would the EU agree to that? Or the HoC?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    So the trajectory for the next few days is roughly as follows?:

    Parliament: we don’t like this deal

    EU: this is the final deal

    Parliament: we don’t want to leave without a deal but we don’t like this deal

    EU: this is the final deal

    Parliament: please can you give us some more time so we can renegotiate the deal?

    EU: erm.......

    Replace that last one with:

    Parliament: please can you give us some more time so we can work out a way not to fuck everyone over for no apparent reason?
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Cyclefree said:

    A GE is unlikely to solve anything.

    Were I the EU I would say that the only basis I'd agree to an extension is for a vote on the Deal, as agreed as of last night, or Remain.

    But the “Remain” question has been asked and answered.

    Surely it’s “Deal” vs “No Deal” that is on the table?
    Chance of that is approximately zero. Why the hell would the EU agree to that? Or the HoC?
    Not up to the EU
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Matt Hancock the Comical Ali of May's government? :D
  • mr-claypolemr-claypole Posts: 218
    One comment on the election front - there is a very big opening for a stop brexit coalition from which one of the main parties dies.

  • tottenhamWCtottenhamWC Posts: 352
    Brom said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A GE is unlikely to solve anything.

    Were I the EU I would say that the only basis I'd agree to an extension is for a vote on the Deal, as agreed as of last night, or Remain.

    But the “Remain” question has been asked and answered.

    Surely it’s “Deal” vs “No Deal” that is on the table?
    Chance of that is approximately zero. Why the hell would the EU agree to that? Or the HoC?
    Not up to the EU
    Yes it is - they won’t grant an extension for that.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    ironic that a leaver (Cox) has scuppered a remainer (May) in trying to 'leave'.
    Sums up the past few years well.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited March 2019
    dixiedean said:

    You'll be taking the 6s about the deal passing then? Best of luck.

    12.5 now. Edit: 13.5

    No chance. It's back to where we were a week ago: getting the vote close enough to keep MV3 alive, 2mths extension, bully/bribe/bore the final few MPs into changing their votes.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    Chris said:

    I don't understand the view that it's a choice between the New Deal and No Brexit.

    No Deal remains the legal default.

    What do people see as the "no Brexit" route away from that? A referendum? Revocation? Given the situation within the Tory party, how would either be achieved?

    Parliament has a vote on whether they want an extension instead of No Deal. They do. TMay dutifully shuffles off to Brussels and asks the 27 if they will agree to this rather than inconveniencing their citizens and businesses with No Deal, and potentially further bollocksing up an already fragile recovery. They do.

    At the end of the extension period, repeat.

    At some point in the future, possibly after a new election, something may shift enough to make the deal, a referendum or revocation an option. But until that happens, just keep extending.
    Did you not hear Juncker? There will be no more renegotiation, so there is no basis for the EU to accept an extension. There is no majority for a 2nd ref, and there is no majority for revocation.
    Juncker said that consistently from November til last night too. Yet he still went ahead with last nights negotiations.

    If May goes then her successor will negotiate.
    There is a difference between negotiating, which will happen, and actually conceding anything though.
    As we have just seen.
  • tottenhamWCtottenhamWC Posts: 352

    Brom said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A GE is unlikely to solve anything.

    Were I the EU I would say that the only basis I'd agree to an extension is for a vote on the Deal, as agreed as of last night, or Remain.

    But the “Remain” question has been asked and answered.

    Surely it’s “Deal” vs “No Deal” that is on the table?
    Chance of that is approximately zero. Why the hell would the EU agree to that? Or the HoC?
    Not up to the EU
    Yes it is - they won’t grant an extension for that.
    Plus the HoC will never support it either.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092


    dots said:

    GIN1138 said:

    DavidL said:

    Sporting Index have a spread bet market on the number of Ayes, currently at 268-278. In the last vote the result was 202.

    My gut reaction is that they've pitched it about right, but this could be very volatile depending on what Cox says and (most importantly) on what the DUP decide.

    Is Onasanya suspended or is she able to vote on her tag?
    She can vote I think but not sure what happens if the vote is beyond her curfew?

    Wouldn't it be hilarious if the police rocked up and arrested her for breaking her parole conditions? :D
    Pointless wondering about half a dozen independents for this vote it’s not even close. With DUP, Davis, Mogg, now boris too, as well Tory remainers and soft brexiteers and 30mor 40 labour all voting with May sporting index Ayes looks about a hundred short.
    Where are you getting these figures from. Cox advice looks very honest but not sure it helps. However, ERG facing the almost certain loss of brexit if this falls may add to their thoughts
    Don't take dots too seriously, his (?) thing seems to be making extremely confident predictions then making exactly the opposite prediction, equally confidently, days or hours later. I think it's a form of trolling.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,811

    SeanT said:

    Tim Shipman has deleted the codpiece tweet.

    When they come to write the Curious History of the Brexit That Never Happened, a good left field title would be

    TIM SHIPMAN HAS DELETED THE CODPIECE TWEET
    That will be for Volume Two. Volume One will be called THE SECOND "TWAT".
    I would so buy that book. In an otherwise sorry process the second "twat" provided a rare source of unbridled joy as well as perfectly summarising the whole shit show.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,875

    Chris said:

    Sterling now seems to be in freefall. Which very much suggests that the markets aren't thinking that No Deal is off the table.

    Sterling was lower yesterday morning. I agree the risk of no deal is real, but essentially nothing has changed on that score.
    As of yesterday Sterling was at its highest level against the Euro for over a year. The fall today, so far, is a very small blip in that trend but we shall see.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,744

    Corbyn should table another No Confidence vote tonight. If Tory MPs weren't so worried about the party whip if they were honest enough would back it. This needs to end.

    Parliamentary votes cannot make it "end". Suppose Corbyn wins a vote: then what? A general election which might or might not deliver a majority government but which still doesn't change the position that either party in charge will find it immensely difficult to agree any WA with the EU that their own MPs can sign up to.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    The question, as ever, is what did May think was going to happen?

    I extend the same question to anyone who, last night or this morning, thought the odds of the deal passing tonight had materially improved.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549

    SeanT said:

    Just realised I am now more likely than not to lose £1000 to Mr williamglenn, of this selfsame parish.

    I think the biggest risk to me is a short extension and a cross-party soft Brexit stitch up.
    Yes, that’s possible. No Deal is also a way I could win (horribly). But I think the Remainers now feel they have the wind in their sails (and they do, thanks to TMay’s cluelessness). They will go for total victory now. A new referendum, which I think they will win.
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549
    AndyJS said:

    DavidL said:

    May really has to go today. She has done her best. It wasn't very good but she undoubtedly tried hard. But its time. It really is.

    I don't think she will resign. It looks like she wants to carry on whatever happens.

    She’s mad. Get rid. Enough!!!!!
  • Obviously, I don't know the ins and outs of it, but if Cox says it's still dubious, then surely it's dead in the water?
  • tottenhamWCtottenhamWC Posts: 352
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    DavidL said:

    May really has to go today. She has done her best. It wasn't very good but she undoubtedly tried hard. But its time. It really is.

    I don't think she will resign. It looks like she wants to carry on whatever happens.

    She’s mad. Get rid. Enough!!!!!
    I know someone who works with her (v closely). He says that the main thing she is focused on (beyond anything else - her overriding priority) is continuing as PM. This is to his frustration by the way.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    One comment on the election front - there is a very big opening for a stop brexit coalition from which one of the main parties dies.

    Haven't TIG said they want to run in every seat? That already means they've responded to the Lib Dems' friendliness by spitting in their faces. Not a good sign for the prospect of a coalition
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549

    SeanT said:

    Tim Shipman has deleted the codpiece tweet.

    When they come to write the Curious History of the Brexit That Never Happened, a good left field title would be

    TIM SHIPMAN HAS DELETED THE CODPIECE TWEET
    That will be for Volume Two. Volume One will be called THE SECOND "TWAT".
    I would so buy that book. In an otherwise sorry process the second "twat" provided a rare source of unbridled joy as well as perfectly summarising the whole shit show.
    Take it you’re referring to Danny Dyer. Did he say TWAT twice?!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Just realised I am now more likely than not to lose £1000 to Mr williamglenn, of this selfsame parish.

    I think the biggest risk to me is a short extension and a cross-party soft Brexit stitch up.
    Yes, that’s possible. No Deal is also a way I could win (horribly). But I think the Remainers now feel they have the wind in their sails (and they do, thanks to TMay’s cluelessness). They will go for total victory now. A new referendum, which I think they will win.
    If so they'll be able to enjoy remaining in the EU, while a Corbyn government takes away all their wealth and property! :D
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Unnamed, but I'd trust Lord Ashcroft on this:

    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1105438643991261184
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Tim Shipman has deleted the codpiece tweet.

    When they come to write the Curious History of the Brexit That Never Happened, a good left field title would be

    TIM SHIPMAN HAS DELETED THE CODPIECE TWEET
    That will be for Volume Two. Volume One will be called THE SECOND "TWAT".
    I would so buy that book. In an otherwise sorry process the second "twat" provided a rare source of unbridled joy as well as perfectly summarising the whole shit show.
    Take it you’re referring to Danny Dyer. Did he say TWAT twice?!
    Yes. The second one was a glorious extemporised expectoration. It's absolutely worth re-watching just for that.

    (Also, of course, for the sight of Ed Balls corpsing in the background.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W77154J0-w
  • I cashed out for a paltry green of 16 quid on the deal passing today.... but is there another twist ahead still?

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1105438576651788288

    https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/1105439086494576642
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,219
    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Just realised I am now more likely than not to lose £1000 to Mr williamglenn, of this selfsame parish.

    I think the biggest risk to me is a short extension and a cross-party soft Brexit stitch up.
    Yes, that’s possible. No Deal is also a way I could win (horribly). But I think the Remainers now feel they have the wind in their sails (and they do, thanks to TMay’s cluelessness). They will go for total victory now. A new referendum, which I think they will win.
    If so they'll be able to enjoy remaining in the EU, while a Corbyn government takes away all their wealth and property! :D
    Yep this is why leaving with May's deal is probably the best option. Corbyn benefits massively from us remaining or no deal.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    DavidL said:

    May really has to go today. She has done her best. It wasn't very good but she undoubtedly tried hard. But its time. It really is.

    I don't think she will resign. It looks like she wants to carry on whatever happens.
    I think we should be past caring about what she wants.
    Well said.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,878

    BigIan said:

    No Deal it is then.

    We’ll have rejoined by 2027.

    Short term pain for long term gain.

    Euro and all?
    Most likely.
    To be fair, if we Remain, I think we should join the Euro. Stop fannying about.
    Rather take the Deal but that looks dead now.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Just realised I am now more likely than not to lose £1000 to Mr williamglenn, of this selfsame parish.

    I think the biggest risk to me is a short extension and a cross-party soft Brexit stitch up.
    Yes, that’s possible. No Deal is also a way I could win (horribly). But I think the Remainers now feel they have the wind in their sails (and they do, thanks to TMay’s cluelessness). They will go for total victory now. A new referendum, which I think they will win.
    If so they'll be able to enjoy remaining in the EU, while a Corbyn government takes away all their wealth and property! :D
    Yep this is why leaving with May's deal is probably the best option. Corbyn benefits massively from us remaining or no deal.
    Remain plus Corbyn as PM would truly be the worst of all worlds.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Corbyn should table another No Confidence vote tonight. If Tory MPs weren't so worried about the party whip if they were honest enough would back it. This needs to end.

    And how does that end it
    It gives an opportunity for a reset and fresh ideas. Whether it be preparing for No Deal or a Referendum or a renegotiation. May has nothing, hers is an empty cupboard. She has wasted our.2 year window of negotiations sticking obstinately to a plan she knew Parliament would oppose with no Plan B. She is a failure. Worst PM since Chamberlain, Suez was not handled this badly.
    ???? Most of the clock was run down trying to get a deal from the EU they were never going to give. I seem to remember certain commenters on this very site shared her belief that getting rid of the backstop would be possible.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Obviously, I don't know the ins and outs of it, but if Cox says it's still dubious, then surely it's dead in the water?

    In an uncertain world of absolutists seeking absolutes a move from very unlikely to extremely unlikely was never going to be enough....
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Tim Shipman has deleted the codpiece tweet.

    When they come to write the Curious History of the Brexit That Never Happened, a good left field title would be

    TIM SHIPMAN HAS DELETED THE CODPIECE TWEET
    That will be for Volume Two. Volume One will be called THE SECOND "TWAT".
    I would so buy that book. In an otherwise sorry process the second "twat" provided a rare source of unbridled joy as well as perfectly summarising the whole shit show.
    Take it you’re referring to Danny Dyer. Did he say TWAT twice?!
    Yes. The second one was a glorious extemporised expectoration. It's absolutely worth re-watching just for that.

    (Also, of course, for the sight of Ed Balls corpsing in the background.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W77154J0-w
    Yes, that’s very good. Oddly cheering. THE SECOND TWAT it is.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Geoffrey Cox is positioned very well as a Brexiter man of integrity who argued in favour of the deal.

    That might be rather handy for him in any coming leadership election...
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    BigIan said:

    No Deal it is then.

    We’ll have rejoined by 2027.

    Short term pain for long term gain.

    Euro and all?
    Most likely.
    To be fair, if we Remain, I think we should join the Euro. Stop fannying about.
    Rather take the Deal but that looks dead now.
    There is zero appetite for the euro in the UK and it's not required whilst London is the global financial capital. Can't see it happening in my lifetime, probably more likely to adopt the US dollar if anything.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469
    edited March 2019
    Politicians have awful taste in scarfs. First Chuka and now Vince...
  • XtrainXtrain Posts: 341
    Seems like the best bet for Leavers. If Brexit doesn't happen the Conservatives will be screwed.

    Unnamed, but I'd trust Lord Ashcroft on this:

    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1105438643991261184

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,268
    edited March 2019

    Corbyn should table another No Confidence vote tonight. If Tory MPs weren't so worried about the party whip if they were honest enough would back it. This needs to end.

    Parliamentary votes cannot make it "end". Suppose Corbyn wins a vote: then what? A general election which might or might not deliver a majority government but which still doesn't change the position that either party in charge will find it immensely difficult to agree any WA with the EU that their own MPs can sign up to.
    A successful no confidence vote before the end of the month on its own would dramatically increase the likelihood of a no deal Brexit on the 29th.

    The ensuing general election would be entertaining in a watching-a-nation-dismantle-itself kind of a way.
  • As a pragmatic leaver, who accepts we won't get a perfect Brexit, I really despair. How can May have stood up on the podium with Juncker and not made sure that Cox would sign this off first?

    If the deal goes down in flames, the only way I can see forward is to get an extension and then May stands down. A quick turnaround Con leadership election and then maybe a GE in May.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387

    Unnamed, but I'd trust Lord Ashcroft on this:

    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1105438643991261184

    + 5, then.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Wow, that was not what everyone was expecting from Cox this morning, but fair play to him for playing a straight bat. I can’t see how the deal goes through tonight now, and the PM’s political career probably dies with it.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Geoffrey Cox is positioned very well as a Brexiter man of integrity who argued in favour of the deal.

    That might be rather handy for him in any coming leadership election...

    I'm on him at 50/1 next PM. A moderate Brexiter is arguably what the Tory party needs as leader if May goes soon.
  • tottenhamWCtottenhamWC Posts: 352
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Just realised I am now more likely than not to lose £1000 to Mr williamglenn, of this selfsame parish.

    I think the biggest risk to me is a short extension and a cross-party soft Brexit stitch up.
    Yes, that’s possible. No Deal is also a way I could win (horribly). But I think the Remainers now feel they have the wind in their sails (and they do, thanks to TMay’s cluelessness). They will go for total victory now. A new referendum, which I think they will win.
    If so they'll be able to enjoy remaining in the EU, while a Corbyn government takes away all their wealth and property! :D
    Yep this is why leaving with May's deal is probably the best option. Corbyn benefits massively from us remaining or no deal.
    Remain plus Corbyn as PM would truly be the worst of all worlds.
    No deal plus Corbyn is worse....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Corbyn should table another No Confidence vote tonight. If Tory MPs weren't so worried about the party whip if they were honest enough would back it. This needs to end.

    And how does that end it
    It gives an opportunity for a reset and fresh ideas. Whether it be preparing for No Deal or a Referendum or a renegotiation. May has nothing, hers is an empty cupboard. She has wasted our.2 year window of negotiations sticking obstinately to a plan she knew Parliament would oppose with no Plan B. She is a failure. Worst PM since Chamberlain, Suez was not handled this badly.
    ???? Most of the clock was run down trying to get a deal from the EU they were never going to give. I seem to remember certain commenters on this very site shared her belief that getting rid of the backstop would be possible.
    And I was vocally one of them. And it would have been possible if the alternative was No Deal. May refusing to plan for that and Parliament in recent weeks prevented that.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    BBC BREAKING: DUP likely to vote against
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    BREAKING: Brexit
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Assuming I live long enough to see it, the outcome of the truth and reconciliation inquiry in Brexit is going to be epic...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    Xtrain said:

    Seems like the best bet for Leavers. If Brexit doesn't happen the Conservatives will be screwed.

    Unnamed, but I'd trust Lord Ashcroft on this:

    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1105438643991261184

    I think that is correct. My view is that of the 40% or so who support the Conservatives, far more care about achieving Brexit, than care about achieving the ideal Brexit.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited March 2019
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Just realised I am now more likely than not to lose £1000 to Mr williamglenn, of this selfsame parish.

    I think the biggest risk to me is a short extension and a cross-party soft Brexit stitch up.
    Yes, that’s possible. No Deal is also a way I could win (horribly). But I think the Remainers now feel they have the wind in their sails (and they do, thanks to TMay’s cluelessness). They will go for total victory now. A new referendum, which I think they will win.
    If so they'll be able to enjoy remaining in the EU, while a Corbyn government takes away all their wealth and property! :D
    Yep this is why leaving with May's deal is probably the best option. Corbyn benefits massively from us remaining or no deal.
    Remain plus Corbyn as PM would truly be the worst of all worlds.
    No, leaving with no deal combined with Corbyn would be the worst. Not only would we have the cumulative economic hit of the two, we'd also have lost the protections built in to EU membership. Membership of the EU constrains his ability to waste money on state aid, makes it impossible for him to impose exchange controls, makes it impossible to confiscate assets without full compensation, and constrains his ability to impose draconian taxes because so many people would have an easy option of legging it to the continent.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,268
    IanB2 said:

    BREAKING: Brexit

    Broken: Britain.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Unnamed, but I'd trust Lord Ashcroft on this:

    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1105438643991261184

    That "Leaver MP" could well have voted for the deal last time too.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    This, from the Guardian liveblog, strikes me as verging on clinically insane:

    "[JRM] told Barclay:

    "This has been advertised as a unilateral ability. It’s not unilateral."

    "Barclay responded with this:

    "What is unilateral is what we are asserting, is our interpretation. And the fact this is not disputed by the EU becomes common ground that goes before the arbitrators. So this is not saying this is a unilateral exit in the regard you’re referring to. What it is saying is the ability to trigger our interpretation is what the unilateral declaration is referring to."
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    As a pragmatic leaver, who accepts we won't get a perfect Brexit, I really despair. How can May have stood up on the podium with Juncker and not made sure that Cox would sign this off first?

    If the deal goes down in flames, the only way I can see forward is to get an extension and then May stands down. A quick turnaround Con leadership election and then maybe a GE in May.

    That sounds like a reasonable series of events.

    Mrs May should have realised the deal was a dodo back in January, I can’t see any progress now with her remaining in place.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The Commons is still going to vote against No Deal tomorrow I assume?
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Look, I studied under Foucault and Derrida and none of this makes much sense to me, so it's not unreasonable to suppose that it doesn't make any sense to the average Tory backbencher.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,219
    Scott_P said:

    Assuming I live long enough to see it, the outcome of the truth and reconciliation inquiry in Brexit is going to be epic...

    Why will it be needed when we're clearly staying in forever ?
  • SeanTSeanT Posts: 549
    When this Deal fails, which it will, then the Cabinet has to summon up the cullions and just tell TMay to go. If she refuses, drag her out by her stupid kitten heels. FFS. She is now an obstacle to all this, and her absurd red lines at the beginning are the reason for all this.

    Jesus. What a waste of time, energy and money.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Sandpit said:

    As a pragmatic leaver, who accepts we won't get a perfect Brexit, I really despair. How can May have stood up on the podium with Juncker and not made sure that Cox would sign this off first?

    If the deal goes down in flames, the only way I can see forward is to get an extension and then May stands down. A quick turnaround Con leadership election and then maybe a GE in May.

    That sounds like a reasonable series of events.

    Mrs May should have realised the deal was a dodo back in January, I can’t see any progress now with her remaining in place.
    Interesting that nobody was saying this last week. Instead people were debating about whether it'd be MV4 or MV5 which eventually passed the deal. May seems to have managed to made things significantly worse for herself.
  • Sandpit said:

    Wow, that was not what everyone was expecting from Cox this morning, but fair play to him for playing a straight bat. I can’t see how the deal goes through tonight now, and the PM’s political career probably dies with it.

    It's crazy. What was she thinking? She trips off to the EU, has a presser with them telling us how she's got it sorted but without really getting the nod from her AG! Is she deluded or incompetent?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    AndyJS said:

    The Commons is still going to vote against No Deal tomorrow I assume?

    It looks like they’re going to vote against every specific option put in front of them. No deal could yet still happen by default.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    Huge admiration for Cox and genuine respect.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Just read that final Cox paragraph.

    May is finished. It is over.

  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Just realised I am now more likely than not to lose £1000 to Mr williamglenn, of this selfsame parish.

    I think the biggest risk to me is a short extension and a cross-party soft Brexit stitch up.
    Yes, that’s possible. No Deal is also a way I could win (horribly). But I think the Remainers now feel they have the wind in their sails (and they do, thanks to TMay’s cluelessness). They will go for total victory now. A new referendum, which I think they will win.
    If so they'll be able to enjoy remaining in the EU, while a Corbyn government takes away all their wealth and property! :D
    Yep this is why leaving with May's deal is probably the best option. Corbyn benefits massively from us remaining or no deal.
    Remain plus Corbyn as PM would truly be the worst of all worlds.
    No deal plus Corbyn is worse....
    +1 the stuff of nightmares
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Fenman said:

    Look, I studied under Foucault and Derrida and none of this makes much sense to me, so it's not unreasonable to suppose that it doesn't make any sense to the average Tory backbencher.

    il faut imaginer theresa heureuse
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    IanB2 said:

    BBC BREAKING: DUP likely to vote against

    If DUP vote against then a few dozen Tory MPs will follow their lead.

    A deal that passed with the DUP opposed would have them tabling a vote of no confidence tomorrow.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    SeanT said:

    When this Deal fails, which it will, then the Cabinet has to summon up the cullions and just tell TMay to go. If she refuses, drag her out by her stupid kitten heels. FFS. She is now an obstacle to all this, and her absurd red lines at the beginning are the reason for all this.

    Jesus. What a waste of time, energy and money.

    And what do you think they should then do? Appoint Boris as PM? Hammond? What about the party membership?

    Whilst I'm sure most MPs and party members would be delighted to see the back of her as PM, her departure would not be a solution to the immediate problem.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,676

    Just read that final Cox paragraph.

    May is finished. It is over.

    It has been over for months, probably since Jun 2017.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    When this Deal fails, which it will, then the Cabinet has to summon up the cullions and just tell TMay to go. If she refuses, drag her out by her stupid kitten heels. FFS. She is now an obstacle to all this, and her absurd red lines at the beginning are the reason for all this.

    The red lines that Tories cheered? That got glowing headlines in the Daily Mail? The red lines that you voted for?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Huge admiration for Cox and genuine respect.

    And, taking a longer view, positions him nicely for future leader depending on how things play out.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,387
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    BBC BREAKING: DUP likely to vote against

    If DUP vote against then a few dozen Tory MPs will follow their lead.

    A deal that passed with the DUP opposed would have them tabling a vote of no confidence tomorrow.
    I don't think the DUP switching would be sufficient to bring down the government, now that there are so many independents.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    This, from the Guardian liveblog, strikes me as verging on clinically insane:

    "[JRM] told Barclay:

    "This has been advertised as a unilateral ability. It’s not unilateral."

    "Barclay responded with this:

    "What is unilateral is what we are asserting, is our interpretation. And the fact this is not disputed by the EU becomes common ground that goes before the arbitrators. So this is not saying this is a unilateral exit in the regard you’re referring to. What it is saying is the ability to trigger our interpretation is what the unilateral declaration is referring to."

    posted earlier...

    https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1105392261670600705
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited March 2019
    YouGov Live Poll:

    Tonight the House of Commons will vote on whether to accept or reject the proposed Brexit deal. Do you think MPs should...

    Accept the deal 35%
    Reject the deal 45%
    Don’t know 20%


    https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/results#/survey/cd731b29-44ab-11e9-9de1-71e6579ebea9
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Spread now 237-247
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Sandpit said:

    Wow, that was not what everyone was expecting from Cox this morning, but fair play to him for playing a straight bat. I can’t see how the deal goes through tonight now, and the PM’s political career probably dies with it.

    It's crazy. What was she thinking? She trips off to the EU, has a presser with them telling us how she's got it sorted but without really getting the nod from her AG! Is she deluded or incompetent?
    Probably another of her games of chicken. He tells her it's a lame duck, she "calls his bluff" and expects him to write up a favourable interpretation.
This discussion has been closed.