At what point - if the nutters consistently outvote you - do you take the view that the party is no longer for you? What, in short, is your breaking point?
It is interesting you don't ask these questions to Conservatives...
No - it's not interesting.
I was responding to a thoughtful post made by Sandy and asking him for his views, not least because he appears - from his posts on here - to have an understanding that anti-semitism is a bad thing and is prepared to call it out when his side are guilty of it, even though he is a democratic socialist. Would that there were more members like him in Labour. It might then not be in such a bad state.
I respond to what others have said to move the conversation on.
I have already written a thread header on how the Tory party has been taken over by fundamentalists.
You seem to think that it is only Tory voters who have an issue with Islam. I think you will find that in every single country in Europe, a majority of voters (in most cases a larger majority than in the UK) have concerns about Islam and its compatibility with life in the West. You might try asking yourself why that might be rather than indulging in whataboutery to divert attention from the problems with anti-semitism in the party you support which even the Labour leadership accept exist - see, for instance, today's interview with John McDonnell on the World this Weekend on Radio 4.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
There seems to be something of a dearth of criticism of Jezza being egged. I'm sure all those who prolapsed when Jim Murphy was assaulted by un ouef (brownshirts, violent thugs, obnoxious, ugly, abusive, bitter, twisted) will be along later to express their disapproval.
Golly, I know Jim Murphy is a neo lib apostle of British nationalism who hings oot wi' the Henry Jackson Society, but even I'd baulk at calling him a Nazi.
Owen Jones tweet is about Nick Griffin.
Yeah, I know. But since someone was making a scintillating point about the general and the particular, I thought I'd join in. #I'mwithOwenwhenitsuits
I have less irritation with the right wingers pushing Brexit than the left wingers who somehow have bought the garbage that out of the EU a socialist nirvana can happen .
The only protection against the right wing capitalism on steroids is staying in the EU . There’s no guarantee of a Labour government anytime soon so the lefties who voted to Leave have handed the keys over to Mogg and co .
Any Labour MP enabling a Tory Brexit should hang their heads in shame , instead of Flint and the others trashing a second vote they should be making the case that a Tory Brexit will be a disaster for their supporters .
They should certainly not do anything to enable a political triumph for May. That alone would surely justify moves to deselect.
How about what is best for the country to move matters on
The party that held an unnecessary referendum and then busied itself deepening division rather than seeking a consensus on the way forward to of Brexit is in no position to appeal to others on the basis of national interest.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
There seems to be something of a dearth of criticism of Jezza being egged. I'm sure all those who prolapsed when Jim Murphy was assaulted by un ouef (brownshirts, violent thugs, obnoxious, ugly, abusive, bitter, twisted) will be along later to express their disapproval.
Golly, I know Jim Murphy is a neo lib apostle of British nationalism who hings oot wi' the Henry Jackson Society, but even I'd baulk at calling him a Nazi.
Owen Jones tweet is about Nick Griffin.
Yeah, I know. But since someone was making a scintillating point about the general and the particular, I thought I'd join in. #I'mwithOwenwhenitsuits
Come off it, you got sick burned and are just trying to save face.
Obviously I don't actually agree with Owen. The point being Corbyn's hangers-on are the sorts of lowlifes that will justify political violence against their opponents, so no one else is going to have much sympathy when it happens to them.
______________________________________________ Almost half (49%) of Conservative voters see Islam as a threat to the British way of life, with a similar number (47%) believing the false conspiracy theory that there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates and non-Muslims cannot enter.
An unbelievable 42% of Tory voters have a positive view of the way Yaxley-Lennon highlights issues ignored by the media ______________________________________________
If Labour held these kind of views towards any minority then questions could rightly be asked of Sandy.
I know you have a track record of posting links on things you haven't actually read, but you might want to read HnH's report which that comes from. Immediately below the section on Islamaphobia, it says:
"Antisemitism Left-wing antisemitism is a very real problem. While extream antisemitism and Holocaust Denial is less common, a larger number engage in conspiratorial antisemitism and use antisemitic tropes, especially in relation to supposed Jewish power and an even larger group are involved in denying a problem exists and dismissing the issue as a right wing and Zionist smear Labour is still not doing enough to tackle antisemitism "
or this bit: "Central to Labour’s problem has been Jeremy Corybn himself, whether that is his conflation of his antiIsraeli position with the Jewish people more generally, his repeated presence in the company of Holocaust Deniers and anti-Semites, his failure to apologise for his past statements or associations and his complete lack of empathy with the concern of his own Jewish MPs and activists and the wider Jewish community more generally."
If you agree with the section on Islamaphobia, surely you agree with the section on anti--Semitism?
The Conservatives need to act on Islamaphobia - it is an issue that has the potential to cause them major issues in the future, and it needs to be addressed before it gets out of hand. But the same could have been said about Labour and anti-Semitism a few yeas back: they did not address it, and Labour's cancer now goes right to the top, including the anti-Semite who leads the party.
I have less irritation with the right wingers pushing Brexit than the left wingers who somehow have bought the garbage that out of the EU a socialist nirvana can happen .
The only protection against the right wing capitalism on steroids is staying in the EU . There’s no guarantee of a Labour government anytime soon so the lefties who voted to Leave have handed the keys over to Mogg and co .
Any Labour MP enabling a Tory Brexit should hang their heads in shame , instead of Flint and the others trashing a second vote they should be making the case that a Tory Brexit will be a disaster for their supporters .
They should certainly not do anything to enable a political triumph for May. That alone would surely justify moves to deselect.
How about what is best for the country to move matters on
The party that held an unnecessary referendum and then busied itself deepening division rather than seeking a consensus on the way forward to of Brexit is in no position to appeal to others on the basis of national interest.
498 mps voted to serve A50 with default no deal
But that was not a vote to leave SM/CU, or for any particular kind of Brexit, still less for May's red lines. It was merely a vote to kick off the process. A wise PM would have sought to build consensus on the back of such a large majority. May opted for division and a version of Brexit designed to unify the Tory Party at the cost of dividing the nation.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
The Labour Party is quite happy to throw its supposedly ‘core’ values under a bus for electoral gain.
We have all seen photos of gender-segregated Labour meetings in the West Midlands. There is no Tory equivalent.
ibed Westminster as a circus and “a paralysed political system that is about to melt down”.
Pity that he is using fake news on the car industry. Also JLR announced big investment in the UK for EV's this week
We’ve been through this exhaustively. You have to be in denial not to believe that Brexit is playing a part in the ongoing divestment in the British economy.
JLM will only produce hybrid or ev from 2020
The media themselves confirmed the lost production was due to the collapse of diesel sales and with the new EU - Japan trade deal Japan can sell direct into the EU tariff free thereby negating their need to build in the EU
These decisions would have happened no matter that we were in the EU
When even the BBC say it is not brexit related it is time to accept the reality of the disaster facing the car industry worldwide, as no one in the car industry has accepted they are not ready to go all ev but the public will not buy diesels anymore
As was discussed last week on here, the British automative industry is in rude health, with the smaller top-end manufacturers and their suppliers opening new facilities, hiring extra staff and with long waiting lists for new models - not to mention all the motorsport companies and F1 teams.
JLR are suffering for the same reasons as their competitors in Germany, because of crap diesels and not-quite-developed electric powertrains.
Not really. The UK is missing out on an investment cycle at the time when investment is piling into other countries for electric vehicles. The SMMT and UK based senior staff have been making some very anxious noises.
I think it was another_richard that used the ONS figures to prove that investment in the automotive industry was at a record high. The SMMT do make anxious noises but when you look at the small print of how they calculate that investment in the car industry has fallen, they add up the money in press releases issued.
I look forward to your explanation as to why that gives a complete picture of automotive investment.
It was the 'Engineering and Vehicles' subsection from the dataset found here:
But having said that, if you are going to have one the wording of the 2016 one was fine. It gave an indication of the direction of travel the public wanted but left the details to the elected representatives. And as it had no timescale, there was no reason that practical difficulties couldn't have been overcome.
One benefit of the 2016 referendum was perhaps for the first time in their lives many people actually felt their vote could make a difference and affect the result.
For so many people their vote never counts as they live in safe seats/one party states - for example if I stay where I am now I know I will always have Labour councillors, a Labour Mayor and a Labour MP. That's the situation in nearly half the country - which are solidly Labour or Tory.
And of course our electoral system can deliver governments with big majorities - as occurred in 2005 and to a lesser extent 2015 - with well under 40% of the vote. We seem to have had no issues on two occassions in the last 15 years with 37% of voters imposing their will on 63% - yet it was apparently unfair 52% imposed their will on 48%. Bizarre.
We could of course in theory elect a Tory govt on a pro Brexit pro no deal platform in 2022 (just say Boris takes over from May) - in case Brexit hasn't happened by then - who could take us out with no deal on 40% of the vote if that was the manifesto pledge. General elections don't offer a solution to this either - as minorities impose their will on majorities under our system.
I'll give you that it increased political engangement. I can't believe how interested in politics young people are now. Unfortunately that is just about the only good thing that has come out of it.
During the 1992 election campaign John Major was hit in the face by an egg which actually cut his face slightly but everyone forgot about it within a few minutes. I don't think anyone was charged.
At what point - if the nutters consistently outvote you - do you take the view that the party is no longer for you? What, in short, is your breaking point?
It is interesting you don't ask these questions to Conservatives...
No - it's not interesting.
I was responding to a thoughtful post made by Sandy and asking him for his views, not least because he appears - from his posts on here - to have an understanding that anti-semitism is a bad thing and is prepared to call it out when his side are guilty of it, even though he is a democratic socialist. Would that there were more members like him in Labour. It might then not be in such a bad state.
I respond to what others have said to move the conversation on.
I have already written a thread header on how the Tory party has been taken over by fundamentalists.
You seem to think that it is only Tory voters who have an issue with Islam. I think you will find that in every single country in Europe, a majority of voters (in most cases a larger majority than in the UK) have concerns about Islam and its compatibility with life in the West. You might try asking yourself why that might be rather than indulging in whataboutery to divert attention from the problems with anti-semitism in the party you support which even the Labour leadership accept exist - see, for instance, today's interview with John McDonnell on the World this Weekend on Radio 4.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
During the 1992 election campaign John Major was hit in the face by an egg which actually cut his face slightly but everyone forgot about it within a few minutes. I don't think anyone was charged.
That doesn't make it right. Conservatives should be deploring this when it happens against an opponent as much as they would if it was against one of their own. It creates a nasty environment in politics; it is morally wrong; and it also creates sympathy for your opponent.
During the 1992 election campaign John Major was hit in the face by an egg which actually cut his face slightly but everyone forgot about it within a few minutes. I don't think anyone was charged.
That doesn't make it right. Conservatives should be deploring this when it happens against an opponent as much as they would if it was against one of their own. It creates a nasty environment in politics; it is morally wrong; and it also creates sympathy for your opponent.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
And you would probably find a substantial number of voters who were hostile to fundamentalist Christianity (or for that matter, atheism) if you were to survey them. Beliefs, as opposed to people, are fair game.
During the 1992 election campaign John Major was hit in the face by an egg which actually cut his face slightly but everyone forgot about it within a few minutes. I don't think anyone was charged.
In the 1970 campaign Harold Wilson was hit by several eggs. Ted Heath quipped -'It is a matter of serious concern that so many people are walking around with eggs on the offchance of bumping into the leader of the Labour Party'.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
The Labour Party is quite happy to throw its supposedly ‘core’ values under a bus for electoral gain.
We have all seen photos of gender-segregated Labour meetings in the West Midlands. There is no Tory equivalent.
During the 1992 election campaign John Major was hit in the face by an egg which actually cut his face slightly but everyone forgot about it within a few minutes. I don't think anyone was charged.
In the 1970 campaign Harold Wilson was hit by several eggs. Ted Heath quipped -'It is a matter of serious concern that so many people are walking around with eggs on the offchance of bumping into the leader of the Labour Party'.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
And you would probably find a substantial number of voters who were hostile to fundamentalist Christianity (or for that matter, atheism) if you were to survey them. Beliefs, as opposed to people, are fair game.
Yes its views that people object too and they should be called out wheresoever they surface. However when you do it for christians you don't get labelled a christophobe
There seems to be something of a dearth of criticism of Jezza being egged. I'm sure all those who prolapsed when Jim Murphy was assaulted by un ouef (brownshirts, violent thugs, obnoxious, ugly, abusive, bitter, twisted) will be along later to express their disapproval.
Golly, I know Jim Murphy is a neo lib apostle of British nationalism who hings oot wi' the Henry Jackson Society, but even I'd baulk at calling him a Nazi.
Owen Jones tweet is about Nick Griffin.
Yeah, I know. But since someone was making a scintillating point about the general and the particular, I thought I'd join in. #I'mwithOwenwhenitsuits
Come off it, you got sick burned and are just trying to save face.
Obviously I don't actually agree with Owen. The point being Corbyn's hangers-on are the sorts of lowlifes that will justify political violence against their opponents, so no one else is going to have much sympathy when it happens to them.
Sick burned, eh? What a badass dude you must be.
Please break down the sickiness & the burniness of the thing for a less badass dude.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
The Labour Party is quite happy to throw its supposedly ‘core’ values under a bus for electoral gain.
We have all seen photos of gender-segregated Labour meetings in the West Midlands. There is no Tory equivalent.
During the 1992 election campaign John Major was hit in the face by an egg which actually cut his face slightly but everyone forgot about it within a few minutes. I don't think anyone was charged.
I think throwing eggs at politicians is part of our political culture. The perpetrators aren't generally prosecuted because they just bring some mates along to court who say that they didn't do it. I think it is a legitimate way of expressing your opinion and I hope whoever did it to Corbyn doesn't get done for it.
At what point - if the nutters consistently outvote you - do you take the view that the party is no longer for you? What, in short, is your breaking point?
It is interesting you don't ask these questions to Conservatives...
I was responding to a thoughtful post made by Sandy and asking him for his views, not least because he appears - from his posts on here - to have an understanding that anti-semitism is a bad thing and is prepared to call it out when his side are guilty of it, even though he is a democratic socialist. Would that there were more members like him in Labour. It might then not be in such a bad state.
I have already written a thread header on how the Tory party has been taken over by fundamentalists.
You seem to think that it is only Tory voters who have an issue with Islam. I think you will find that in every single country in Europe, a majority of voters (in most cases a larger majority than in the UK) have concerns about Islam and its compatibility with life in the West. You might try asking yourself why that might be rather than indulging in whataboutery to divert attention from the problems with anti-semitism in the party you support which even the Labour leadership accept exist - see, for instance, today's interview with John McDonnell on the World this Weekend on Radio 4.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Don't misrepresent me. You've done this before and I've called you out on it. I'm calling you out on it again. I did not say that it is OK that "Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims." Nor have I ever said that it is OK to discriminate against Muslims.
The reason we are discussing anti-semitism in Labour is because it is a very live political issue which is being discussed by its leadership, on a daily basis, on pretty much every news programme.
We have discussed Islam and attitudes towards it ad nauseam on this forum, though it may well have been before you joined.
One hopes, if that is the case, that the assailant has been arrested. As a matter of interest does the Leader of the Opposition have police protection as a matter of course or is this only during election campaigns?
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
The Labour Party is quite happy to throw its supposedly ‘core’ values under a bus for electoral gain.
We have all seen photos of gender-segregated Labour meetings in the West Midlands. There is no Tory equivalent.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
The Labour Party is quite happy to throw its supposedly ‘core’ values under a bus for electoral gain.
We have all seen photos of gender-segregated Labour meetings in the West Midlands. There is no Tory equivalent.
During the 1992 election campaign John Major was hit in the face by an egg which actually cut his face slightly but everyone forgot about it within a few minutes. I don't think anyone was charged.
I think throwing eggs at politicians is part of our political culture. The perpetrators aren't generally prosecuted because they just bring some mates along to court who say that they didn't do it. I think it is a legitimate way of expressing your opinion and I hope whoever did it to Corbyn doesn't get done for it.
The bloke who egged Murphy was prosecuted & got 80 hours community service.
He missed with the first four throws so got right up to Jimbo and 'physically struck' him with the last two. Evidently if you're not used to it, hitting someone with a thrown egg is tricky.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
I wonder if that would be true of non Muslim groups as well that have a similar background to the Muslims we have in the UK and what the difference is. Can't say I've actually seen polling on it but I've seen it suggested that 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants have more socially conservative views, my guess is those that do would be from the less wealthy/developed countries regardless of religion.
As an atheist I am generally anti religion (in my thoughts, live and let live in terms of rules) as I think it can offer protection or validation for views we have moved past as a society and this accusation can certainly be levelled at parts of Islam.
I don't think (outside of a small racist fringe) those on the left actually see Judaism or Jewishness as a threat or bad, although there is for some a conflation of Jewishness and Israel which does then cause conflict in the values of many people on both sides.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Don't misrepresent me. You've done this before and I've called you out on it. I'm calling you out on it again. I did not say that it is OK that "Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims." Nor have I ever said that it is OK to discriminate against Muslims.
The reason we are discussing anti-semitism in Labour is because it is a very live political issue which is being discussed by its leadership, on a daily basis, on pretty much every news programme.
We have discussed Islam and attitudes towards it ad nauseam on this forum, though it may well have been before you joined.
TBH I think it just shows the bad faith some people argue with, needless to say I'm not going to take your criticisms of Labour as racists seriously anymore given your reaction when it is the Conservatives.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
You're mixing up criticism of beliefs with discrimination against people. As an atheist, you would no doubt be critical of Christianity. That 's not the same thing as hating Christians. The same goes for Islam and Muslims.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
I wonder if that would be true of non Muslim groups as well that have a similar background to the Muslims we have in the UK and what the difference is. Can't say I've actually seen polling on it but I've seen it suggested that 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants have more socially conservative views, my guess is those that do would be from the less wealthy/developed countries regardless of religion.
As an atheist I am generally anti religion (in my thoughts, live and let live in terms of rules) as I think it can offer protection or validation for views we have moved past as a society and this accusation can certainly be levelled at parts of Islam.
I don't think (outside of a small racist fringe) those on the left actually see Judaism or Jewishness as a threat or bad, although there is for some a conflation of Jewishness and Israel which does then cause conflict in the values of many people on both sides.
Less than 20% of the world’s population is atheist. The fact that you are does not excuse ignorance of the world’s major religions, and the differences between them.
There is a lot of information available online about the significant ‘values gap’ between a majority of British Muslims and the rest of the population, particularly when it comes to gay people and the role of women. I strongly suggest you look it up before sounding off on this topic.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
I am not a tory and wouldn't vote for them if you paid me. I was merely pointing out there are reasons why people might not be comfortable with muslims due to the views a sizable minority have expressed. Of course you just assume that makes me a tory
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
I am not a tory and wouldn't vote for them if you paid me. I was merely pointing out there are reasons why people might not be comfortable with muslims due to the views a sizable minority have expressed. Of course you just assume that makes me a tory
The fact of the matter is there is a cancer at the heart of the muslim community, your excusing it and passing it off as merely being a tory hurts the majority of muslims who do not think like that and allows the bigots among them to spread their hate wider and further
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
You're mixing up criticism of beliefs with discrimination against people. As an atheist, you would no doubt be critical of Christianity. That 's not the same thing as hating Christians. The same goes for Islam and Muslims.
If we go back to the original Guardian article, this isn't people offering a critique of the lack of enlightened views in some parts of Islam. Unless we consider Tommy Robinson some kind of scholar in the subject. The response just above mine also talked about Muslims.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
I am not a tory and wouldn't vote for them if you paid me. I was merely pointing out there are reasons why people might not be comfortable with muslims due to the views a sizable minority have expressed. Of course you just assume that makes me a tory
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
I am not a tory and wouldn't vote for them if you paid me. I was merely pointing out there are reasons why people might not be comfortable with muslims due to the views a sizable minority have expressed. Of course you just assume that makes me a tory
If you’re not a Corbynista you’re a Tory!
in that case I am almost tempted to sign up to corbyns idiocy.....almost
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
I wonder if that would be true of non Muslim groups as well that have a similar background to the Muslims we have in the UK and what the difference is. Can't say I've actually seen polling on it but I've seen it suggested that 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants have more socially conservative views, my guess is those that do would be from the less wealthy/developed countries regardless of religion.
As an atheist I am generally anti religion (in my thoughts, live and let live in terms of rules) as I think it can offer protection or validation for views we have moved past as a society and this accusation can certainly be levelled at parts of Islam.
I don't think (outside of a small racist fringe) those on the left actually see Judaism or Jewishness as a threat or bad, although there is for some a conflation of Jewishness and Israel which does then cause conflict in the values of many people on both sides.
Less than 20% of the world’s population is atheist. The fact that you are does not excuse ignorance of the world’s major religions, and the differences between them.
There is a lot of information available online about the significant ‘values gap’ between a majority of British Muslims and the rest of the population, particularly when it comes to gay people and the role of women. I strongly suggest you look it up before sounding off on this topic.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
I am not a tory and wouldn't vote for them if you paid me. I was merely pointing out there are reasons why people might not be comfortable with muslims due to the views a sizable minority have expressed. Of course you just assume that makes me a tory
Try reading the sentence again
'Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...'
I didn't call you a Tory.
Edit: Reading your further posts it would seem we mostly agree on your view...
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
I am not a tory and wouldn't vote for them if you paid me. I was merely pointing out there are reasons why people might not be comfortable with muslims due to the views a sizable minority have expressed. Of course you just assume that makes me a tory
Try reading the sentence again
'Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...'
I didn't call you a Tory.
No, you responded to a neutral comment pointing out some results from an unspecified range of polls carried out by reputable polling companies.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
I am not a tory and wouldn't vote for them if you paid me. I was merely pointing out there are reasons why people might not be comfortable with muslims due to the views a sizable minority have expressed. Of course you just assume that makes me a tory
Try reading the sentence again
'Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...'
I didn't call you a Tory.
You most certainly implied it and yes
some muslims have bad attitudes trying to squash discussion of this with spurious allegations of islamophobia does a disservice to the majority that don't have their attitudes. You enable their "community leaders" to keep on promulgating their bile and vitriol. Typical response of the left just like back in the blair days claiming anyone that tried to discuss immigration and the problems it brings as a racist. How did that work out for you lefties....not so well it seems. You cannot cap discussion when people want it regardless of what you think is good think.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
You're mixing up criticism of beliefs with discrimination against people. As an atheist, you would no doubt be critical of Christianity. That 's not the same thing as hating Christians. The same goes for Islam and Muslims.
If we go back to the original Guardian article, this isn't people offering a critique of the lack of enlightened views in some parts of Islam. Unless we consider Tommy Robinson some kind of scholar in the subject. The response just above mine also talked about Muslims.
The gist of your argument is that criticising some beliefs and practices associated with Islam is simply people claiming "Muslims are bad." That's very misleading.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
I am not a tory and wouldn't vote for them if you paid me. I was merely pointing out there are reasons why people might not be comfortable with muslims due to the views a sizable minority have expressed. Of course you just assume that makes me a tory
Try reading the sentence again
'Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...'
I didn't call you a Tory.
No, you responded to a neutral comment pointing out some results from an unspecified range of polls carried out by reputable polling companies.
I didn't call him a Tory if that is what the No is in reference to...
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
I am not a tory and wouldn't vote for them if you paid me. I was merely pointing out there are reasons why people might not be comfortable with muslims due to the views a sizable minority have expressed. Of course you just assume that makes me a tory
Try reading the sentence again
'Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...'
I didn't call you a Tory.
Edit: Reading your further posts it would seem we mostly agree on your view...
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
You're mixing up criticism of beliefs with discrimination against people. As an atheist, you would no doubt be critical of Christianity. That 's not the same thing as hating Christians. The same goes for Islam and Muslims.
If we go back to the original Guardian article, this isn't people offering a critique of the lack of enlightened views in some parts of Islam. Unless we consider Tommy Robinson some kind of scholar in the subject. The response just above mine also talked about Muslims.
The gist of your argument is that criticising some beliefs and practices associated with Islam is simply people claiming "Muslims are bad." That's very misleading.
The gist of my argument involves following Tommy Robinson's ideas involving some pretty dodgy islamophobic beliefs and those who respond with x amount of Muslims believe x or y in response seem to be implying the problem lies not with Islamophobia but with the Muslims themselves.
To transfer this argument to the Jewish Labour argument even if 90%+ of Jewish people supported the worst actions of Israel and wanted them to go further (which isn't the case) then that would still not justify discrimination against Jewish people or supporting nutters who spread anti semitism however much the actions of Israel disgusted people.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
I am not a tory and wouldn't vote for them if you paid me. I was merely pointing out there are reasons why people might not be comfortable with muslims due to the views a sizable minority have expressed. Of course you just assume that makes me a tory
Try reading the sentence again
'Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...'
I didn't call you a Tory.
You most certainly implied it
Right, I'm glad we have clarified I didn't call you a Tory, if you thought I implied it then my apologies.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
The Labour Party is quite happy to throw its supposedly ‘core’ values under a bus for electoral gain.
We have all seen photos of gender-segregated Labour meetings in the West Midlands. There is no Tory equivalent.
The gist of my argument involves following Tommy Robinson's ideas involving some pretty dodgy islamophobic beliefs and those who respond with x amount of Muslims believe x or y in response seem to be implying the problem lies not with Islamophobia but with the Muslims themselves.
To transfer this argument to the Jewish Labour argument even if 90%+ of Jewish people supported the worst actions of Israel and wanted them to go further (which isn't the case) then that would still not justify discrimination against Jewish people or supporting nutters who spread anti semitism however much the actions of Israel disgusted people.
No one mentioned tommy robinson, we did mention the what muslims believe poll conducted by channel 4 under the aegis of trevor phillips who used to run the equality commision remember him.
Just a typical smear thrown in from a fascist left winger trying to smear what people say even though everyone that has posted against you so far has been at pains to state they do not believe its the majority of muslims believing this way.
Go back to dreaming about the red flag and controlling everything people say and think by your kneejerk labelling
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
The Labour Party is quite happy to throw its supposedly ‘core’ values under a bus for electoral gain.
We have all seen photos of gender-segregated Labour meetings in the West Midlands. There is no Tory equivalent.
Have we seen that?
I haven't.
Well they happened John
Love the "I personally saw nothing" defence though
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens.
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
You're mixing up criticism of beliefs with discrimination against people. As an atheist, you would no doubt be critical of Christianity. That 's not the same thing as hating Christians. The same goes for Islam and Muslims.
The gist of your argument is that criticising some beliefs and practices associated with Islam is simply people claiming "Muslims are bad." That's very misleading.
The gist of my argument involves following Tommy Robinson's ideas involving some pretty dodgy islamophobic beliefs and those who respond with x amount of Muslims believe x or y in response seem to be implying the problem lies not with Islamophobia but with the Muslims themselves.
To transfer this argument to the Jewish Labour argument even if 90%+ of Jewish people supported the worst actions of Israel and wanted them to go further (which isn't the case) then that would still not justify discrimination against Jewish people or supporting nutters who spread anti semitism however much the actions of Israel disgusted people.
There is no point continuing this debate with you. You are trying to equate genuine concern about the long term impact of the growth of conservative Islam in Britain with a bunch of conspiracy theorists who think the Jews are the only nation in the world that doesn’t deserve the right to self-determination.
It’s nonsense, and fortunately a majority of the nation sees that.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
In case you havent noticed the polls of muslim attitudes are deeply worrying in the number that for example being gay should be illegal or that woman aren't exactly first class citizens. Frankly based on those attitude polls then I think people feeling that people that feel like that are incompatible with life as we know it in the uk isn't unreasonable. However we should only be condemning those that feel like that and not all muslims of which there are many.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...
You're mixing up criticism of beliefs with discrimination against people. As an atheist, you would no doubt be critical of Christianity. That 's not the same thing as hating Christians. The same goes for Islam and Muslims.
If we go back to the original Guardian article, this isn't people offering a critique of the lack of enlightened views in some parts of Islam. Unless we consider Tommy Robinson some kind of scholar in the subject. The response just above mine also talked about Muslims.
The gist of your argument is that criticising some beliefs and practices associated with Islam is simply people claiming "Muslims are bad." That's very misleading.
Jezziah really can't bare to face the facts of what the cult has done to Labour
Tories beware. Endless delays on the Green Paper, endless rows about how much a cap will cost etc etc.
This one is going to bite you in the next GE.
That's a good point. They might get Brexit over the line - though it looks doubtful. They might even manage to portray it as a success - though I've no idea how. But the time and thought they've expended on it will mean they'll be on the backfoot on social questions which most people are much more interested in.
Tories beware. Endless delays on the Green Paper, endless rows about how much a cap will cost etc etc.
This one is going to bite you in the next GE.
That's a good point. They might get Brexit over the line - though it looks doubtful. They might even manage to portray it as a success - though I've no idea how. But the time and thought they've expended on it will mean they'll be on the backfoot on social questions which most people are much more interested in.
I always felt that the price of Brexit was going to be those implementing it would suffer at the next election. But then again I thought that of austerity and was wrong.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
As an atheist I am generally anti religion (in my thoughts, live and let live in terms of rules) as I think it can offer protection or validation for views we have moved past as a society and this accusation can certainly be levelled at parts of Islam.
I don't think (outside of a small racist fringe) those on the left actually see Judaism or Jewishness as a threat or bad, although there is for some a conflation of Jewishness and Israel which does then cause conflict in the values of many people on both sides.
Less than 20% of the world’s population is atheist. The fact that you are does not excuse ignorance of the world’s major religions, and the differences between them.
There is a lot of information available online about the significant ‘values gap’ between a majority of British Muslims and the rest of the population, particularly when it comes to gay people and the role of women. I strongly suggest you look it up before sounding off on this topic.
A lot depends on how nominal religiosity is. A lot of "Christians" never attend church and "Muslims" the mosque, but consider it a form of cultural identity. I make a couple of Sundays per month, but that puts me in a tiny UK minority.
I always felt that the price of Brexit was going to be those implementing it would suffer at the next election. But then again I thought that of austerity and was wrong.
Depends what Brexit looks like perhaps?
Right now Tory members (who are presumably Tory voters) seem to be most strident in calling for No Deal.
If that happens, and it's shit, who else do they vote for?
I always felt that the price of Brexit was going to be those implementing it would suffer at the next election. But then again I thought that of austerity and was wrong.
Depends what Brexit looks like perhaps?
Right now Tory members (who are presumably Tory voters) seem to be most strident in calling for No Deal.
If that happens, and it's shit, who else do they vote for?
When it is shit, they will simply blame johnny foreigner and carry on. Probably voting for Boris.
It encapsulates the Brexiteer mindset. The wistful longing for a faded English exceptionalism (and I do mean English, look at the place names)
And of course total bollocks.
To an extent, I know how he feels. Considering how close our neighbours are culturally and geographically, we can look outside and instantly get a sense of Heimat from the houses, trees, landscape and people. This is even noticeable when arriving by air*, whether from EU, Africa, Middle East or North America. We get that damp green landscape of suburban mediocrity instantly, like watching Terry and June. Like it or loathe it, it feels like family.
*A surprising number of houses with outside pools though.
Comments
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
#I'mwithOwenwhenitsuits
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
Obviously I don't actually agree with Owen. The point being Corbyn's hangers-on are the sorts of lowlifes that will justify political violence against their opponents, so no one else is going to have much sympathy when it happens to them.
"Antisemitism
Left-wing antisemitism is a very real problem. While extream antisemitism and Holocaust
Denial is less common, a larger number engage in conspiratorial antisemitism and use antisemitic tropes, especially in relation to supposed Jewish power and an even larger group are involved in denying a problem exists and dismissing the issue as a right wing and Zionist smear
Labour is still not doing enough to tackle antisemitism "
or this bit:
"Central to Labour’s problem has been Jeremy Corybn himself, whether that is his conflation of his antiIsraeli position with the Jewish people more generally, his repeated presence in the company of Holocaust Deniers and anti-Semites, his failure to apologise for his past statements or associations and his complete lack of empathy with the concern of his own Jewish MPs and activists and the wider Jewish community more generally."
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/state-of-hate-2019-final-1.pdf
If you agree with the section on Islamaphobia, surely you agree with the section on anti--Semitism?
The Conservatives need to act on Islamaphobia - it is an issue that has the potential to cause them major issues in the future, and it needs to be addressed before it gets out of hand. But the same could have been said about Labour and anti-Semitism a few yeas back: they did not address it, and Labour's cancer now goes right to the top, including the anti-Semite who leads the party.
We have all seen photos of gender-segregated Labour meetings in the West Midlands. There is no Tory equivalent.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/datasets/businessinvestmentbyindustryandasset
Though the latest quarters have shown a small reduction in the investment total and that may well be continuing.
Sadly the figures for both examples I cited are a overlarge portion of their community
This is a complete yolk of a protest.
Please break down the sickiness & the burniness of the thing for a less badass dude.
The reason we are discussing anti-semitism in Labour is because it is a very live political issue which is being discussed by its leadership, on a daily basis, on pretty much every news programme.
We have discussed Islam and attitudes towards it ad nauseam on this forum, though it may well have been before you joined.
As it wa,s he might have been toast himself.
One hopes, if that is the case, that the assailant has been arrested. As a matter of interest does the Leader of the Opposition have police protection as a matter of course or is this only during election campaigns?
Have a good evening.
He missed with the first four throws so got right up to Jimbo and 'physically struck' him with the last two. Evidently if you're not used to it, hitting someone with a thrown egg is tricky.
As an atheist I am generally anti religion (in my thoughts, live and let live in terms of rules) as I think it can offer protection or validation for views we have moved past as a society and this accusation can certainly be levelled at parts of Islam.
I don't think (outside of a small racist fringe) those on the left actually see Judaism or Jewishness as a threat or bad, although there is for some a conflation of Jewishness and Israel which does then cause conflict in the values of many people on both sides.
There is a lot of information available online about the significant ‘values gap’ between a majority of British Muslims and the rest of the population, particularly when it comes to gay people and the role of women. I strongly suggest you look it up before sounding off on this topic.
Or will she eggceed eggspectations?
Always darkest before the dawn...
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1102230984093777921
No!
It is the Muslims who are bad.
'Why don't I find it surprising that the response to Conservative Islamophobia seems to be to point out that the Muslims are bad...'
I didn't call you a Tory.
Edit: Reading your further posts it would seem we mostly agree on your view...
some muslims have bad attitudes trying to squash discussion of this with spurious allegations of islamophobia does a disservice to the majority that don't have their attitudes. You enable their "community leaders" to keep on promulgating their bile and vitriol. Typical response of the left just like back in the blair days claiming anyone that tried to discuss immigration and the problems it brings as a racist. How did that work out for you lefties....not so well it seems. You cannot cap discussion when people want it regardless of what you think is good think.
Tories beware. Endless delays on the Green Paper, endless rows about how much a cap will cost etc etc.
This one is going to bite you in the next GE.
And if alternative solutions are so brilliant and easy then why fear the backstop . But of course the media never seem to ask this obvious question .
To transfer this argument to the Jewish Labour argument even if 90%+ of Jewish people supported the worst actions of Israel and wanted them to go further (which isn't the case) then that would still not justify discrimination against Jewish people or supporting nutters who spread anti semitism however much the actions of Israel disgusted people.
It encapsulates the Brexiteer mindset. The wistful longing for a faded English exceptionalism (and I do mean English, look at the place names)
And of course total bollocks.
Might need a mountain walk again...
Just a typical smear thrown in from a fascist left winger trying to smear what people say even though everyone that has posted against you so far has been at pains to state they do not believe its the majority of muslims believing this way.
Go back to dreaming about the red flag and controlling everything people say and think by your kneejerk labelling
Have a great nights rest everyone
Good night folks
Love the "I personally saw nothing" defence though
What you say is of course - total bollocks
It’s nonsense, and fortunately a majority of the nation sees that.
https://twitter.com/RBReich/status/1102318351756320768
Expect some action tomorrow.
At least in Britain they will be scrabbling for 5-10% of the vote. In France their equivalents contend for the presidency.
Right now Tory members (who are presumably Tory voters) seem to be most strident in calling for No Deal.
If that happens, and it's shit, who else do they vote for?
*A surprising number of houses with outside pools though.