The gist of your argument is that criticising some beliefs and practices associated with Islam is simply people claiming "Muslims are bad." That's very misleading.
The gist of my argument involves following Tommy Robinson's ideas involving some pretty dodgy islamophobic beliefs and those who respond with x amount of Muslims believe x or y in response seem to be implying the problem lies not with Islamophobia but with the Muslims themselves.
To transfer this argument to the Jewish Labour argument even if 90%+ of Jewish people supported the worst actions of Israel and wanted them to go further (which isn't the case) then that would still not justify discrimination against Jewish people or supporting nutters who spread anti semitism however much the actions of Israel disgusted people.
There is no point continuing this debate with you. You are trying to equate genuine concern about the long term impact of the growth of conservative Islam in Britain with a bunch of conspiracy theorists who think the Jews are the only nation in the world that doesn’t deserve the right to self-determination.
It’s nonsense, and fortunately a majority of the nation sees that.
We can pretty much boil it down to the Muslims are bad, I agree there is no point continuing the debate though, so many bad faith arguments about racism and Labour here from people. I suspected it to an extent but the response to BJO a couple of days ago pretty much proved it.
As someone who lives in a relative cheap (to live) area I can understand the logic behind housing Asylum seekers there rather than somewhere expensive which costs the government more money.
The part where they badly fail is poorer areas should be offered more funding and help anyway but on top of that if they are taking more asylum seekers because the area offers cheaper housing then they need even more money put into the area in terms of provision of services.
If housing them in cheaper areas benefits the country then that benefit should be put back into those cheaper areas.
She’s going to drive some of those Labour rebels into the second EU vote . If you’re going to deliver a bribe make sure it’s a good one not the insulting derisory sum she’s come up with .
She’s going to drive some of those Labour rebels into the second EU vote . If you’re going to deliver a bribe make sure it’s a good one not the insulting derisory sum she’s come up with .
They are right, a Brexit that fails to deliver for Ebbw Vale, Hartlepool and Stoke is not one that can long stand. Simples.
She’s going to drive some of those Labour rebels into the second EU vote . If you’re going to deliver a bribe make sure it’s a good one not the insulting derisory sum she’s come up with .
TBH it would go with the classic May is a secret remainer conspiracy theory...
A slightly more cunning one on May's behalf might be forcing Labour into the second referendum position and then calling the election on the basis of Labour trying to stop Brexit...
Although I'm unsure how well that works given the Tories would be standing on her deal which isn't that popular.
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they may only hold superficial allegiance. To judge someone like TSE on the basis of what extremists do is just ludicrous. But I think it is reasonable to say that certain strands of Islam currently poses a greater threat to our values than Judaism.
And of course you could say much the same about fundamentalist Christianity.
I I don't think (outside of a small racist fringe) those on the left actually see Judaism or Jewishness as a threat or bad, although there is for some a conflation of Jewishness and Israel which does then cause conflict in the values of many people on both sides.
Less than 20% of the world’s population is atheist. The fact that you are does not excuse ignorance of the world’s major religions, and the differences between them.
There is a lot of information available online about the significant ‘values gap’ between a majority of British Muslims and the rest of the population, particularly when it comes to gay people and the role of women. I strongly suggest you look it up before sounding off on this topic.
Do you have a concrete source for that 20% figure? History shows that actual religiousness is generally overestimated, atheism underrated.
I remember a discussion on here six or seven years ago where several PBers argued that religiousness was on the up in the UK.
Leave with No Deal 40% Leave with May's Deal 20% Remain 40%
Second round:
Leave with No Deal 45% Remain 55%
That’s how Leave 60% loses to Remain 40%
AV is bollocks for a referendum.
Great summary. I mean, this would actually be a reasonable way to operate: Remain would probably have beaten Deal as well, so it's not winning because of a flaw in AV. But Leave enthusiasts woukd understandably add together the two Leave scores and conclude they'd been robbed.
Some of them will obviously never be satisfied but for the strongest appearance of fairness you do two rounds with different questions:
1) What is brexit? Deal or No Deal 2) Now that you kniw what brexit is, do you still want to do it? Leave like that or Remain
But it's going to get demagogued anyway and No Deal MPs aren't going to support any version of this process, so I think MPs just decide they may as well be hung for a sheep as hung for a lamb and do a simple Deal vs Remain vote.
The chances of actually being able to win over the Brexiteers was always low simply because if it was easy to secure a meaningful compromise or fudge from the EU on the issues at hand it would have been achieved by now.
But this all just seems part of the cycle we are in - after a couple of days of increasing media rumours that maybe, just maybe, the deal has a chance after all, the counters start to reveal, of course, that nothing has changed as ERG and potential Labour rebels are given reason to stand their ground.
May can break the cycle, but only by converting to a referendum, which for obvious party reasons she has been adamant against doing. But the alternative is a pointless extension.
Because let's be serious, nothing will be agreed until some side or another gives in. The EU see no need to, the Remainers dare not when this is their last chance, the no dealers can wait it out, and the rest would for the moment rather enable May to kick the can further down the road than give in to either remain, no deal or the deal.
I'm unclear. Nandy's vote isn't for sale, but Snell's and Smeeth's are, but only for an increased offer?
All MP votes are for sale. Sometimes the offer is more obvious than others. To suggest otherwise, if really believed, just means the MP is too stupid to understand.
On the subject of future potential trade with the USA...
twitter.com/BpsmithUk/status/1101874585899806726
Not sure I follow the logic. Because it isn't 100% effective means it shouldn't be used?
I think the idea would be to have higher standards that negate the need for the chlorine wash in the first place, basically where Britain currently is.
That's pretty horrific, certainly worse than chlorine washes and the odd bit of salmonella. Is it not economical or possible for infrastructure reasons to get the fish their more quickly or maybe in refrigerated (much more difficult in India than the UK no doubt) trucks?
TBH a post which goes off into its okay that Conservative voters have a problem with Muslims doesn't fill me with confidence on your consistency on the matter.
Whataboutery charge might hold truer if there was constant talk of the Conservatives problems with Islamophobia on here and no discussion of Labour and anti semitism, which is pretty much the opposite of the case.
I think it is unfortunate that you seem to have a different standard to discrimination against Muslims and Jews.
Isn't the problem with that though, that a reasonable number of Muslims have a series of views which are absolutely antithetical to mainstream accepted Western values regarding matters such as women and homosexuality whilst we do not, as a rule, have the same issues with Jews.
I am absolutely with you that we should not judge individuals by the standards of an overarching religion to which they e same about fundamentalist Christianity.
As an atheist I am generally anti religion (in my thoughts, live and let live in terms of rules) as I think it can offer protection or validation for views we have moved past as a society and this accusation can certainly be levelled at parts of Islam.
I don't think (outside of a small racist fringe) those on the left actually see Judaism or Jewishness as a threat or bad, although there is for some a conflation of Jewishness and Israel which does then cause conflict in the values of many people on both sides.
Less than 20% of the world’s population is atheist. The fact that you are does not excuse ignorance of the world’s major religions, and the differences between them.
There is a lot of information available online about the significant ‘values gap’ between a majority of British Muslims and the rest of the population, particularly when it comes to gay people and the role of women. I strongly suggest you look it up before sounding off on this topic.
A lot depends on how nominal religiosity is. A lot of "Christians" never attend church and "Muslims" the mosque, but consider it a form of cultural identity. I make a couple of Sundays per month, but that puts me in a tiny UK minority.
The UK is one of the most irreligious nations in the world, behind only Sweden and China and the Czech Republic in terms of lack of religion.
Globally only 34% are irreligious (25% not religious, 9% atheists), in the UK by contrast 69% are irreligious
The backstop issue is largely semantics, an addendum to the Treaty is the most that can be achieved but even that will not convince hardliners like Bone and Redwood who want no backstop at all. What is more significant is if the Commons votes to extent Art 50 and it looks like the Commons could then vote for EUref2 with a Remain option, it is only the threat of No Brexit at all that will force the ERG to back May's Deal and see it scrape over the line with some Labour MPs from Leave seats too
I'm unclear. Nandy's vote isn't for sale, but Snell's and Smeeth's are, but only for an increased offer?
All MP votes are for sale. Sometimes the offer is more obvious than others. To suggest otherwise, if really believed, just means the MP is too stupid to understand.
All governments have used the local government finance settlement and other mechanisms to distribute resources towards areas and constituencies they think 'deserve' more funding.
This year alone the Government allocated £153 million to 'eliminate negative revenue support grant ' a 'technical' change to adjust for the fact that some rich areas quite reasonably get penalised in the funding settlement as they collect more in business rates and council tax than they need for services.
I’d have some sympathy with the claim that May is a secret Remainer if it wasn’t for her absolute obsession with ending freedom of movement. Above all else she is a very provincial, middle class English xenophobe.
Javid in big trouble tonight looking at the headlines of papers.
Expect some action tomorrow.
Haven't seen anything about that - what's the issue?
A girl guide getting murdered in a park while sitting out with her boyfriend in an apparently random stabbing on Friday night - amongst multiple other incidents. Three young men were stabbed in the last week - one died - in Mike Gapes's Ilford constituency alone.
Its a serious problem - admittedly mostly in London.
I’d have some sympathy with the claim that May is a secret Remainer if it wasn’t for her absolute obsession with ending freedom of movement. Above all else she is a very provincial, middle class English xenophobe.
This being the same Mrs May who presided over the highest levels of net immigration - including non EU immigration - of any Home Secretary in our history?
Ending freedom of movement was a key factor in the leave vote - not the only one but a key factor. Its a bit odd that seeking to end a policy which offers preferential and unrestricted immigration to almost entirely white Europeans compared to people from the rest of the world is 'xenophobic' - when in reality its about creating a level playing field where your skills and qualifications and earning potential ranks higher in deciding eligibility to come to the UK and work than the colour of your passport?
In other words adopting the same immigration policies as almost the entire world outside the EU/EEA has in place!
Javid in big trouble tonight looking at the headlines of papers.
Expect some action tomorrow.
Haven't seen anything about that - what's the issue?
A girl guide getting murdered in a park while sitting out with her boyfriend in an apparently random stabbing on Friday night - amongst multiple other incidents. Three young men were stabbed in the last week - one died - in Mike Gapes's Ilford constituency alone.
Its a serious problem - admittedly mostly in London.
Undo whatever Sadiq Khan has done to London policing. Primarily reinstate stop and search.
Unclear this is Javid's fault in any case. The rise in knife violence predates his arrival in the Home Office by some distance, and it takes time for any new policy change to have an effect.
I’d have some sympathy with the claim that May is a secret Remainer if it wasn’t for her absolute obsession with ending freedom of movement. Above all else she is a very provincial, middle class English xenophobe.
This being the same Mrs May who presided over the highest levels of net immigration - including non EU immigration - of any Home Secretary in our history?
Ending freedom of movement was a key factor in the leave vote - not the only one but a key factor. Its a bit odd that seeking to end a policy which offers preferential and unrestricted immigration to almost entirely white Europeans compared to people from the rest of the world is 'xenophobic' - when in reality its about creating a level playing field where your skills and qualifications and earning potential ranks higher in deciding eligibility to come to the UK and work than the colour of your passport?
In other words adopting the same immigration policies as almost the entire world outside the EU/EEA has in place!
Yes, May has failed totally to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands. That is her aim, though. She does not like foreigners.
Javid in big trouble tonight looking at the headlines of papers.
Expect some action tomorrow.
Haven't seen anything about that - what's the issue?
A girl guide getting murdered in a park while sitting out with her boyfriend in an apparently random stabbing on Friday night - amongst multiple other incidents. Three young men were stabbed in the last week - one died - in Mike Gapes's Ilford constituency alone.
Its a serious problem - admittedly mostly in London.
Undo whatever Sadiq Khan has done to London policing. Primarily reinstate stop and search.
Unclear this is Javid's fault in any case. The rise in knife violence predates his arrival in the Home Office by some distance, and it takes time for any new policy change to have an effect.
The rise in violent crime is actually much greater outside of London.
Javid in big trouble tonight looking at the headlines of papers.
Expect some action tomorrow.
Haven't seen anything about that - what's the issue?
A girl guide getting murdered in a park while sitting out with her boyfriend in an apparently random stabbing on Friday night - amongst multiple other incidents. Three young men were stabbed in the last week - one died - in Mike Gapes's Ilford constituency alone.
Its a serious problem - admittedly mostly in London.
Undo whatever Sadiq Khan has done to London policing. Primarily reinstate stop and search.
Unclear this is Javid's fault in any case. The rise in knife violence predates his arrival in the Home Office by some distance, and it takes time for any new policy change to have an effect.
The rise in violent crime is actually much greater outside of London.
Of course those stats rely on percentages - so the starting point matters.
If you have two knife crime incidents in a borough in one year - and that rises to 4 there is a 100% increase.
Ilford has had three knife crime incidents in less than one week.
Are we to believe that Ribble Valley and the Isle of Wight are less safe than Ilford - percentage rises might imply that but actual case levels might suggest otherwise?
But that is the problem with percentages - they take no account of the starting point numerically!
I’d have some sympathy with the claim that May is a secret Remainer if it wasn’t for her absolute obsession with ending freedom of movement. Above all else she is a very provincial, middle class English xenophobe.
This being the same Mrs May who presided over the highest levels of net immigration - including non EU immigration - of any Home Secretary in our history?
Ending freedom of movement was a key factor in the leave vote - not the only one but a key factor. Its a bit odd that seeking to end a policy which offers preferential and unrestricted immigration to almost entirely white Europeans compared to people from the rest of the world is 'xenophobic' - when in reality its about creating a level playing field where your skills and qualifications and earning potential ranks higher in deciding eligibility to come to the UK and work than the colour of your passport?
In other words adopting the same immigration policies as almost the entire world outside the EU/EEA has in place!
Yes, May has failed totally to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands. That is her aim, though. She does not like foreigners.
Do you actually have personal proof Mrs May dislikes all foreigners/non UK citizens?
Presumably in your view anyone that doesn't favour an open door immigration policy allowing anyone who wishes to come here whether they are entitled to be here or not is xenophobic? Presumably pretty much every government in the world which controls its borders is xenophobic then?
There were about 200 homicides in London in 2003 but I don't remember much of a fuss being made about it at the time. The rate in London over the last few years has been about half of that (despite the population of the capital being significantly higher). There doesn't seem to be much relation between the crime rate and whether people are feeling particularly anxious about it; it seems to depend on completely different factors to do with whether people are feeling optimistic or pessimistic in general. When you have optimistic times with a high crime rate, like the early noughties, people don't talk about it much because it doesn't match the narrative. In more pessimistic times with a low crime rate, like now, people seem to feel anxious about the relatively lower rate of crime.
Javid in big trouble tonight looking at the headlines of papers.
Expect some action tomorrow.
Haven't seen anything about that - what's the issue?
A girl guide getting murdered in a park while sitting out with her boyfriend in an apparently random stabbing on Friday night - amongst multiple other incidents. Three young men were stabbed in the last week - one died - in Mike Gapes's Ilford constituency alone.
Its a serious problem - admittedly mostly in London.
Undo whatever Sadiq Khan has done to London policing. Primarily reinstate stop and search.
Unclear this is Javid's fault in any case. The rise in knife violence predates his arrival in the Home Office by some distance, and it takes time for any new policy change to have an effect.
The rise in violent crime is actually much greater outside of London.
Of course those stats rely on percentages - so the starting point matters.
If you have two knife crime incidents in a borough in one year - and that rises to 4 there is a 100% increase.
Ilford has had three knife crime incidents in less than one week.
Are we to believe that Ribble Valley and the Isle of Wight are less safe than Ilford - percentage rises might imply that but actual case levels might suggest otherwise?
But that is the problem with percentages - they take no account of the starting point numerically!
Of course. But we are not only talking about rises in the Isle of Wight, are we? We are talking about all our major cities. What is clear is that London is not an exception. Violent crime is on the rise across England and Wales.
I’d have some sympathy with the claim that May is a secret Remainer if it wasn’t for her absolute obsession with ending freedom of movement. Above all else she is a very provincial, middle class English xenophobe.
This being the same Mrs May who presided over the highest levels of net immigration - including non EU immigration - of any Home Secretary in our history?
Ending freedom of movement was a key factor in the leave vote - not the only one but a key factor. Its a bit odd that seeking to end a policy which offers preferential and unrestricted immigration to almost entirely white Europeans compared to people from the rest of the world is 'xenophobic' - when in reality its about creating a level playing field where your skills and qualifications and earning potential ranks higher in deciding eligibility to come to the UK and work than the colour of your passport?
In other words adopting the same immigration policies as almost the entire world outside the EU/EEA has in place!
Yes, May has failed totally to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands. That is her aim, though. She does not like foreigners.
Do you actually have personal proof Mrs May dislikes all foreigners/non UK citizens?
Presumably in your view anyone that doesn't favour an open door immigration policy allowing anyone who wishes to come here whether they are entitled to be here or not is xenophobic? Presumably pretty much every government in the world which controls its borders is xenophobic then?
I have an opinion based on observation of her actions and words. How many other countries have pursued immigration policies that actively involve removing the rights of their own citizens?
The chances of no deal just went up significantly. With precicely no movement from the EU side, it's going to get voted down by 200 again.
I don't think the chances of anything changed, the press just went through it's 86th "ERG might move" / "EU might move" cycle where they excitedly report the first half of the sentence "we'd take a deal we thought was acceptable but this one isn't". When they've run that for a couple of days they move on to reporting the second half.
The chances of no deal just went up significantly. With precicely no movement from the EU side, it's going to get voted down by 200 again.
I don't think the chances of anything changed, the press just went through it's 86th "ERG might move" / "EU might move" cycle where they excitedly report the first half of the sentence "we'd take a deal we thought was acceptable but this one isn't". When they've run that for a couple of days they move on to reporting the second half.
I am sure Kit Malthouse has another plan.
The Malthouse declaration?
The Malthouse codicil? and in the end
The Malthouse capitulation?
So essentially we are no further forward than 3 weeks ago - the EU hasn't budged at all? But
Maybe Parliament couldn't get through a Ref Bill unless 3 options on the ballot. Still, why AV? People (including, notoriously, John Humphreys) don't understand it. I'd favour Condorcet. Not easy to understand how it works in practice, it's true. But the principle can be explained. Maybe a majority of MPs could grasp it! I hope it won't be assumed that if you thought AV was best for constituency elections, you'd be bound to advocate if for this one. And I hope it won't be left to the Electoral Commission (whose unfitness for purpose I take to have been demonstrated) to determine how votes are to be counted.
Comments
Let the Games commence.
The part where they badly fail is poorer areas should be offered more funding and help anyway but on top of that if they are taking more asylum seekers because the area offers cheaper housing then they need even more money put into the area in terms of provision of services.
If housing them in cheaper areas benefits the country then that benefit should be put back into those cheaper areas.
She’s going to drive some of those Labour rebels into the second EU vote . If you’re going to deliver a bribe make sure it’s a good one not the insulting derisory sum she’s come up with .
A slightly more cunning one on May's behalf might be forcing Labour into the second referendum position and then calling the election on the basis of Labour trying to stop Brexit...
Although I'm unsure how well that works given the Tories would be standing on her deal which isn't that popular.
I remember a discussion on here six or seven years ago where several PBers argued that religiousness was on the up in the UK.
Absolutely wrong.
Five years later, it reached a record low.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4851448/amp/Number-atheists-UK-reaches-highest-level.html
Some of them will obviously never be satisfied but for the strongest appearance of fairness you do two rounds with different questions:
1) What is brexit? Deal or No Deal
2) Now that you kniw what brexit is, do you still want to do it? Leave like that or Remain
But it's going to get demagogued anyway and No Deal MPs aren't going to support any version of this process, so I think MPs just decide they may as well be hung for a sheep as hung for a lamb and do a simple Deal vs Remain vote.
But this all just seems part of the cycle we are in - after a couple of days of increasing media rumours that maybe, just maybe, the deal has a chance after all, the counters start to reveal, of course, that nothing has changed as ERG and potential Labour rebels are given reason to stand their ground.
May can break the cycle, but only by converting to a referendum, which for obvious party reasons she has been adamant against doing. But the alternative is a pointless extension.
Because let's be serious, nothing will be agreed until some side or another gives in. The EU see no need to, the Remainers dare not when this is their last chance, the no dealers can wait it out, and the rest would for the moment rather enable May to kick the can further down the road than give in to either remain, no deal or the deal.
And so more aggravating delays we can expect.
TL:DR
Trump is trying to blackmail the UK for a trade deal based on losing his court case in Scotland
https://twitter.com/BpsmithUk/status/1101874585899806726
No2AV: 68%
Yes2AV: 32%
https://steemit.com/food/@truthtellerhere/health-hazards-from-formalin-injected-fish-1530476300
I like to think this is just the natural human method of dealing with our fears...
Globally only 34% are irreligious (25% not religious, 9% atheists), in the UK by contrast 69% are irreligious
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion
This year alone the Government allocated £153 million to 'eliminate negative revenue support grant ' a 'technical' change to adjust for the fact that some rich areas quite reasonably get penalised in the funding settlement as they collect more in business rates and council tax than they need for services.
https://www.localgov.co.uk/Government-accused-of-allocating-council-funding-by-political-convenience/46059
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/negative-revenue-support-grant-for-2019-to-2020
One third of the entire national allocation went to these 'deprived areas!':
Surrey £17m
Dorset £11m
Buckinghamshire £11m
Richmond upon Thames £7m
Oxfordshire £6m
Newham/Tower Hamlets/Durham/Hartlepool/Sunderland etc etc - all zero!
Is it so bad some very deprived areas might get more cash now instead?
Its a serious problem - admittedly mostly in London.
Difficulty is what to do about it?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6766971/Friends-pay-tribute-murder-victim-Jodie-Chesney-17-stabbed-Romford.html
Ending freedom of movement was a key factor in the leave vote - not the only one but a key factor. Its a bit odd that seeking to end a policy which offers preferential and unrestricted immigration to almost entirely white Europeans compared to people from the rest of the world is 'xenophobic' - when in reality its about creating a level playing field where your skills and qualifications and earning potential ranks higher in deciding eligibility to come to the UK and work than the colour of your passport?
In other words adopting the same immigration policies as almost the entire world outside the EU/EEA has in place!
Unclear this is Javid's fault in any case. The rise in knife violence predates his arrival in the Home Office by some distance, and it takes time for any new policy change to have an effect.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/violent-crime-is-surging-four-times-as-fast-outside-london-vkdscnknq
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/apologising-is-the-ultimate-social-media-sin-z2qk5k0bw
If you have two knife crime incidents in a borough in one year - and that rises to 4 there is a 100% increase.
Ilford has had three knife crime incidents in less than one week.
Are we to believe that Ribble Valley and the Isle of Wight are less safe than Ilford - percentage rises might imply that but actual case levels might suggest otherwise?
But that is the problem with percentages - they take no account of the starting point numerically!
Presumably in your view anyone that doesn't favour an open door immigration policy allowing anyone who wishes to come here whether they are entitled to be here or not is xenophobic? Presumably pretty much every government in the world which controls its borders is xenophobic then?
The Malthouse declaration?
The Malthouse codicil? and in the end
The Malthouse capitulation?
So essentially we are no further forward than 3 weeks ago - the EU hasn't budged at all? But
Still, why AV? People (including, notoriously, John Humphreys) don't understand it.
I'd favour Condorcet. Not easy to understand how it works in practice, it's true. But the principle can be explained. Maybe a majority of MPs could grasp it!
I hope it won't be assumed that if you thought AV was best for constituency elections, you'd be bound to advocate if for this one. And I hope it won't be left to the Electoral Commission (whose unfitness for purpose I take to have been demonstrated) to determine how votes are to be counted.