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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In this week’s PB / Polling Matters podcast: LAB’s Brexit shif

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  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    Roger said:

    A caller just phoned into Radio 4's BREXIT EXPERT to 'ask' in the smug tone of a Brexiteer if it's true that we pay into the EU £14 billion a year?

    'Yes' said the expert 'but when you take out rebates to farmers etc it amounts to £9 billion and that can be reduced by a further billi.....'

    'Yes but it is true so if we left we'd be much better off than we are now wouldn't we?'

    '....but if the Treasury forcast is correct that in twenty five years we'll be 3% worse off than we would have been then the annual cost to us will be £87 billion....'

    The Brexit Expert is a moron then. The £14 billion a year is tax money raised by the Government and paid to the EU. It is actual money. The GDP is a nominal number for the value of the economy overall which it is utterly impossible to predict 25 years out. It is fractions of a percentage difference each year - about the same amount as the rounding errors we currently use.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    The desire to feel ourselves better than other people is universal. Some achieve it by buying flash motors they can't afford. Others achieve it by looking down their noses at people who buy flash motors they can't afford. And the third and most exclusive group prefers to stand aside and shake their heads wryly at the behaviour of both of the first two groups.
    I am in a 4th group, chuckling quietly at the antics of the first three.

    Those infinite regresses are a right bugger.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    The desire to feel ourselves better than other people is universal. Some achieve it by buying flash motors they can't afford. Others achieve it by looking down their noses at people who buy flash motors they can't afford. And the third and most exclusive group prefers to stand aside and shake their heads wryly at the behaviour of both of the first two groups.
    Equally it's almost as cheap to rent / lease a BMW or Range Rover monthly than the equivalent Ford / Vauxhall. And which one will make you feel better..

    And renting is cheaper than outright purchase. My 3 year old car is costing me £300 a month, for that I could have a new one. The difference is that I will own it in 3 years while the new one would have been rented.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited March 2019
    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    The desire to feel ourselves better than other people is universal. Some achieve it by buying flash motors they can't afford. Others achieve it by looking down their noses at people who buy flash motors they can't afford. And the third and most exclusive group prefers to stand aside and shake their heads wryly at the behaviour of both of the first two groups.
    There is a fourth group, of course. The group that believes it has the over-archingly correct view on any discussion between people on any given subject. Or the arrogant gits, as they are better known.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,811
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    The desire to feel ourselves better than other people is universal. Some achieve it by buying flash motors they can't afford. Others achieve it by looking down their noses at people who buy flash motors they can't afford. And the third and most exclusive group prefers to stand aside and shake their heads wryly at the behaviour of both of the first two groups.
    There is a fourth group, of course. The group that believes it has the over-archingly correct view on any discussion between people on any given subject. Or the arrogant gits, as they are better known.
    They are indeed a select group, although they all seem to post here.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,628
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:


    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?

    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    Wouldn't half of it be of Chelsea ?
    Well yes, there are a lot of £3m terraced houses in Chelsea, but I'm talking provincial towns, outer London suburbs, etc. There are plenty of small, say ex-council low value terraced houses in these places with huge shiny new 68 reg cars parked outside them. Once you notice it, you can't not notice it.
    Can't such a house cost £500k in some of London's outer suburbs ?

    If so then the car wouldn't be proportionally expensive.

    The only way I'd say that would happen in the North is among some tightly knit Asian communities who remain in the same few streets but for whom a flash car would be a status symbol.
    I'm not going to scour the country a la googlemaps illustrating what I mean. Suffice to say there are plenty of flash new cars outside modest homes where the disconnect is marked. Take a look next time you're out and about.
    Well I might do but I really think you should give a daily report.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,725

    Roger said:

    A caller just phoned into Radio 4's BREXIT EXPERT to 'ask' in the smug tone of a Brexiteer if it's true that we pay into the EU £14 billion a year?

    'Yes' said the expert 'but when you take out rebates to farmers etc it amounts to £9 billion and that can be reduced by a further billi.....'

    'Yes but it is true so if we left we'd be much better off than we are now wouldn't we?'

    '....but if the Treasury forcast is correct that in twenty five years we'll be 3% worse off than we would have been then the annual cost to us will be £87 billion....'

    As the Treasury was unable to forecast competently what would happen three months after a Leave vote why should anyone pay any attention to a twenty five year forecast ?
    Since leavers were unable to forecast competently the chaos we've had since the referendum, why should anyone pay them any attention? ;)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:


    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?

    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    Wouldn't half of it be of Chelsea ?
    Well yes, there are a lot of £3m terraced houses in Chelsea, but I'm talking provincial towns, outer London suburbs, etc. There are plenty of small, say ex-council low value terraced houses in these places with huge shiny new 68 reg cars parked outside them. Once you notice it, you can't not notice it.
    Can't such a house cost £500k in some of London's outer suburbs ?

    If so then the car wouldn't be proportionally expensive.

    The only way I'd say that would happen in the North is among some tightly knit Asian communities who remain in the same few streets but for whom a flash car would be a status symbol.
    I'm not going to scour the country a la googlemaps illustrating what I mean. Suffice to say there are plenty of flash new cars outside modest homes where the disconnect is marked. Take a look next time you're out and about.
    Well I might do but I really think you should give a daily report.
    On it.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019

    Roger said:

    A caller just phoned into Radio 4's BREXIT EXPERT to 'ask' in the smug tone of a Brexiteer if it's true that we pay into the EU £14 billion a year?

    'Yes' said the expert 'but when you take out rebates to farmers etc it amounts to £9 billion and that can be reduced by a further billi.....'

    'Yes but it is true so if we left we'd be much better off than we are now wouldn't we?'

    '....but if the Treasury forcast is correct that in twenty five years we'll be 3% worse off than we would have been then the annual cost to us will be £87 billion....'

    The Brexit Expert is a moron then. The £14 billion a year is tax money raised by the Government and paid to the EU. It is actual money. The GDP is a nominal number for the value of the economy overall which it is utterly impossible to predict 25 years out. It is fractions of a percentage difference each year - about the same amount as the rounding errors we currently use.
    The Treasury can't accurately forecast 25 weeks ahead never mind 25 years. It's total bollocks.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Roger said:

    A caller just phoned into Radio 4's BREXIT EXPERT to 'ask' in the smug tone of a Brexiteer if it's true that we pay into the EU £14 billion a year?

    'Yes' said the expert 'but when you take out rebates to farmers etc it amounts to £9 billion and that can be reduced by a further billi.....'

    'Yes but it is true so if we left we'd be much better off than we are now wouldn't we?'

    '....but if the Treasury forcast is correct that in twenty five years we'll be 3% worse off than we would have been then the annual cost to us will be £87 billion....'

    As the Treasury was unable to forecast competently what would happen three months after a Leave vote why should anyone pay any attention to a twenty five year forecast ?
    Since leavers were unable to forecast competently the chaos we've had since the referendum, why should anyone pay them any attention? ;)
    I think you mean political chaos - normal people just carry on as they did before. And I'm not surprised in the least that we are where we are.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    Well I have done what you're always told is stupid and bought a brand new car, kept it for five to eight years (although my current is entering its ninth) while saving up to trade it in for the next one. Over the piece I don't think this is hugely disadvantageous; yes there's massive up-front depreciation, but then depreciation is built into the cost of PCP in any case.

    The real nonsense is pretending that I might be interested in a finance deal just to get the best deal on the new car. The last thing they seem to want is a cash buyer.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    A caller just phoned into Radio 4's BREXIT EXPERT to 'ask' in the smug tone of a Brexiteer if it's true that we pay into the EU £14 billion a year?

    'Yes' said the expert 'but when you take out rebates to farmers etc it amounts to £9 billion and that can be reduced by a further billi.....'

    'Yes but it is true so if we left we'd be much better off than we are now wouldn't we?'

    '....but if the Treasury forcast is correct that in twenty five years we'll be 3% worse off than we would have been then the annual cost to us will be £87 billion....'

    As the Treasury was unable to forecast competently what would happen three months after a Leave vote why should anyone pay any attention to a twenty five year forecast ?
    Just supposing they're right think of what you could do with £87 billion a year....

    You'd need a bigger red bus.....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    It makes sense the most sense at low annual mileages. Mrs DA's car lease is about 700 quid a month including servicing which makes it compellingly cheap but every mile over 8,000 she does in a year is about 90p...

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    A caller just phoned into Radio 4's BREXIT EXPERT to 'ask' in the smug tone of a Brexiteer if it's true that we pay into the EU £14 billion a year?

    'Yes' said the expert 'but when you take out rebates to farmers etc it amounts to £9 billion and that can be reduced by a further billi.....'

    'Yes but it is true so if we left we'd be much better off than we are now wouldn't we?'

    '....but if the Treasury forcast is correct that in twenty five years we'll be 3% worse off than we would have been then the annual cost to us will be £87 billion....'

    As the Treasury was unable to forecast competently what would happen three months after a Leave vote why should anyone pay any attention to a twenty five year forecast ?
    Since leavers were unable to forecast competently the chaos we've had since the referendum, why should anyone pay them any attention? ;)
    I think you mean political chaos - normal people just carry on as they did before. And I'm not surprised in the least that we are where we are.
    Because businesses large and small are simply planning to carry on as they did before?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,628

    Roger said:

    A caller just phoned into Radio 4's BREXIT EXPERT to 'ask' in the smug tone of a Brexiteer if it's true that we pay into the EU £14 billion a year?

    'Yes' said the expert 'but when you take out rebates to farmers etc it amounts to £9 billion and that can be reduced by a further billi.....'

    'Yes but it is true so if we left we'd be much better off than we are now wouldn't we?'

    '....but if the Treasury forcast is correct that in twenty five years we'll be 3% worse off than we would have been then the annual cost to us will be £87 billion....'

    As the Treasury was unable to forecast competently what would happen three months after a Leave vote why should anyone pay any attention to a twenty five year forecast ?
    Since leavers were unable to forecast competently the chaos we've had since the referendum, why should anyone pay them any attention? ;)
    We might have political chaos but we haven't had economic chaos.

    But if they're making twenty-five year forecasts then you shouldn't.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    It makes sense the most sense at low annual mileages. Mrs DA's car lease is about 700 quid a month including servicing which makes it compellingly cheap but every mile over 8,000 she does in a year is about 90p...

    Yes I'd heard they are pretty strict on mileage.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    Going back to the high level of borrowing in Denmark, you can get a 30 year mortgage at a fixed interest rate of 1.5%. No wonder people borrow as much as they can in a world where they expect inflation to be at least that amount.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,725
    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    A caller just phoned into Radio 4's BREXIT EXPERT to 'ask' in the smug tone of a Brexiteer if it's true that we pay into the EU £14 billion a year?

    'Yes' said the expert 'but when you take out rebates to farmers etc it amounts to £9 billion and that can be reduced by a further billi.....'

    'Yes but it is true so if we left we'd be much better off than we are now wouldn't we?'

    '....but if the Treasury forcast is correct that in twenty five years we'll be 3% worse off than we would have been then the annual cost to us will be £87 billion....'

    As the Treasury was unable to forecast competently what would happen three months after a Leave vote why should anyone pay any attention to a twenty five year forecast ?
    Since leavers were unable to forecast competently the chaos we've had since the referendum, why should anyone pay them any attention? ;)
    I think you mean political chaos - normal people just carry on as they did before. And I'm not surprised in the least that we are where we are.
    Can you show me a post pre-referendum where you predicted it?

    And if so, can you tell us where we're heading... ? ;)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    It makes sense the most sense at low annual mileages. Mrs DA's car lease is about 700 quid a month including servicing which makes it compellingly cheap but every mile over 8,000 she does in a year is about 90p...

    Yes I'd heard they are pretty strict on mileage.
    The deals give the illusion that the car is yours, when in reality it isn't.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited March 2019
    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    It makes sense the most sense at low annual mileages. Mrs DA's car lease is about 700 quid a month including servicing which makes it compellingly cheap but every mile over 8,000 she does in a year is about 90p...

    Yes I'd heard they are pretty strict on mileage.
    The deals give the illusion that the car is yours, when in reality it isn't.
    This is why any rebalancing, improvement of the savings rate, etc has to be handled so carefully, if at all. The affordability delta on the APR is shocking.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I had to run it twice to work out what bark parking is.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    A caller just phoned into Radio 4's BREXIT EXPERT to 'ask' in the smug tone of a Brexiteer if it's true that we pay into the EU £14 billion a year?

    'Yes' said the expert 'but when you take out rebates to farmers etc it amounts to £9 billion and that can be reduced by a further billi.....'

    'Yes but it is true so if we left we'd be much better off than we are now wouldn't we?'

    '....but if the Treasury forcast is correct that in twenty five years we'll be 3% worse off than we would have been then the annual cost to us will be £87 billion....'

    As the Treasury was unable to forecast competently what would happen three months after a Leave vote why should anyone pay any attention to a twenty five year forecast ?
    Since leavers were unable to forecast competently the chaos we've had since the referendum, why should anyone pay them any attention? ;)
    I think you mean political chaos - normal people just carry on as they did before. And I'm not surprised in the least that we are where we are.
    Can you show me a post pre-referendum where you predicted it?

    And if so, can you tell us where we're heading... ? ;)
    I didn't make any prediction - and haven't bet on it. My dad predicted the morning after the result that we'd leave on WTO. He's now starting to think that we might not leave at all, but to be fair to him, to get to WTO, I think it did mean going the route we've gone. So whilst he didn't predict all the nonsense in parliament of the last few months, he kind of did without realising it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I had to run it twice to work out what bark parking is.
    Foreigners, eh? And it was her first language.

    Let me know if you need to turn on the subtitles for this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z42GdbgY3LY
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    edited March 2019
    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,878
    Drutt said:

    As soon as the putative Fire All The Scousers Act 2019 comes into force,

    When is this? Do I need a passport to get to London now?

  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    It makes sense the most sense at low annual mileages. Mrs DA's car lease is about 700 quid a month including servicing which makes it compellingly cheap but every mile over 8,000 she does in a year is about 90p...

    Yes I'd heard they are pretty strict on mileage.
    The deals give the illusion that the car is yours, when in reality it isn't.
    This is why any rebalancing, improvement of the savings rate, etc has to be handled so carefully, if at all. The affordability delta on the APR is shocking.
    Our car (large saloon) costs us £60 per month in depreciation. No mileage restrictions, no worries when it gets dented, does 40 mpg. Nothing significant has gone wrong with it over the last few years. Very comfortable. Costs about £100 per year to service.

    It wouldn't make sense to change it to a £300 / month car on PCP, plus strings attached, with a load of unnecessary tech that can just go wrong. If the current car dies, then I would borrow about £8k on a low interest loan, and buy a newer version of our existing car, the monthly repayments would be about £130, after 5 years the car would be owned outright.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,676
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    You can't beat bangernomics.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    It's worth building depreciation into your calculation. You'd have to be fucked in the head to pay cash for something with cataclysmic residuals like a BMW 7 Series (or your favourite McLaren) but leasing one protects, to an extent, from that.

    My philosophy is too pay cash for cars with blown engines and get them for extraordinarily small amounts of money. I then spend years and three to five times their value repairing and modifying them. I commend this course of action to nobody.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Oh come on. I am going to have to defend Topping to the hilt here. You don't have to like everything about someone or know and agree with every detail of their lives or their politics to find them funny. One of the big problems today is people judge art, comedy and other cultural stuff based on things that have nothing to do with the skill or value of the piece of work.

    To my mind perhaps the finest comedian of the last 20 years is Eddie Izzard. Clearly I disagree with his about his views on the EU and politics in general but he makes me laugh harder and longer than almost any comedian ever.

    Comedy is a deeply personal thing and it is pretty idiotic to criticise or judge people for liking one comedian over another.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    v interesting thanks.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Oh come on. I am going to have to defend Topping to the hilt here. You don't have to like everything about someone or know and agree with every detail of their lives or their politics to find them funny. One of the big problems today is people judge art, comedy and other cultural stuff based on things that have nothing to do with the skill or value of the piece of work.

    To my mind perhaps the finest comedian of the last 20 years is Eddie Izzard. Clearly I disagree with his about his views on the EU and politics in general but he makes me laugh harder and longer than almost any comedian ever.

    Comedy is a deeply personal thing and it is pretty idiotic to criticise or judge people for liking one comedian over another.
    I just googled Stephen k Amos and, on first glance, can't work out what he's supposed to have done. He's gay as I discover, but apart from that absolutely no idea.

    @Brom??
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    A couple of other points:

    1. When handing in the lease car at the end of the three years, you'd better hope it's not got any car park rash or scuffed bumpers, no kids have been sick in the back or adventurous with the crayons - beacuse you'll be putting your hand in your pocket for fixing any damage that's not considered fair wear and tear.

    2. Mr @eek makes the point that 'premium' brands suffer from less initial depreciation (therefore higher residual values) than 'standard' brands. So the lease 'monthlies' on a 35k BMW 3-series can be almost the same as on a 25k Ford Mondeo. If the 3yo 35k car is worth 25k, and the 3yo 25k car is worth 15k, then the monthly difference is 1/36 of the 3 year interest on 10k, or about 30-40 quid a month
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    v interesting thanks.
    Would a car new at £35k ever hold £25k value after three years?
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
    That you have awful taste in music and comedy. And politics - but everyone knew that already!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,725
    Hmmmm...

    "Lord Nazir Ahmed charged with attempted rape"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-47413418

    This news was brought to you by one of PB's crime correspondents.. ;)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
    That you have awful taste in music and comedy. And politics - but everyone knew that already!
    LOL! Fair enough.

    So was the Amos comment about his quality? The way you said it it sounded as though he had done something egregious: "given his murky past". What is his murky past?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    @Brom

    You had me at "superinjunction".
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,010
    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
    That you have awful taste in music and comedy. And politics - but everyone knew that already!
    Care to offer your tastes in music and comedy so 'everyone' can judge? Would be interested to hear your opinions on painting and sculpture also.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    It's worth building depreciation into your calculation. You'd have to be fucked in the head to pay cash for something with cataclysmic residuals like a BMW 7 Series (or your favourite McLaren) but leasing one protects, to an extent, from that.

    My philosophy is too pay cash for cars with blown engines and get them for extraordinarily small amounts of money. I then spend years and three to five times their value repairing and modifying them. I commend this course of action to nobody.
    I like your style, but most others wouldn't. You need space to store a few cars and be handy with a spanner. It's also great fun, and often involves spending time with friends and children, on which you can't put a value.

    Also people need to remember that the cost of maintaining a car is proportional to the cost it was when it was new, not the cost it is now. Cheap second-hand sports or luxury cars can be absolute money pits. If buying a used (but not total shed) luxury car make sure it's got a warranty on it, as they're full of very expensive bits that can go wrong!
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    TOPPING said:

    @Brom

    You had me at "superinjunction".

    You had me at "liking Stephen K Amos"
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    edited March 2019
    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Oh come on. I am going to have to defend Topping to the hilt here. You don't have to like everything about someone or know and agree with every detail of their lives or their politics to find them funny. One of the big problems today is people judge art, comedy and other cultural stuff based on things that have nothing to do with the skill or value of the piece of work.

    To my mind perhaps the finest comedian of the last 20 years is Eddie Izzard. Clearly I disagree with his about his views on the EU and politics in general but he makes me laugh harder and longer than almost any comedian ever.

    Comedy is a deeply personal thing and it is pretty idiotic to criticise or judge people for liking one comedian over another.
    I just googled Stephen k Amos and, on first glance, can't work out what he's supposed to have done. He's gay as I discover, but apart from that absolutely no idea.

    @Brom??
    Yes, I can't either. My opinion of him actually went up; he seems to be a pretty good egg.

    Edit, ok I'm now well behind the curve on this.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
    you have lots of more interesting things you could be doing than posting about Brexit
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    v interesting thanks.
    Would a car new at £35k ever hold £25k value after three years?
    Something like a low mileage 3-series probably would be close. Or a Porsche Boxster. Not a loaded-up Mondeo or anything Japansese or Korean though.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,219
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    It's worth building depreciation into your calculation. You'd have to be fucked in the head to pay cash for something with cataclysmic residuals like a BMW 7 Series (or your favourite McLaren) but leasing one protects, to an extent, from that.

    My philosophy is too pay cash for cars with blown engines and get them for extraordinarily small amounts of money. I then spend years and three to five times their value repairing and modifying them. I commend this course of action to nobody.
    https://cleetusmcfarland.com/ does this on his Youtube channel.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,219
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    From a monthly budget financial point of view, people are incentivised to either buy a new car or an old and cheap one, not a 3 or 4 year old car which makes the most sense in reality but leads to higher monthly payments (mostly because at the end of the loan you end up with an asset).

    I've got a spreadsheet on this somewhere I'll try and drag up.

    Well yes that's exactly the issue - they are all bought on the never never and then the loan is rolled over at the end of the term. And the finance firms give three pages of warnings why you should never buy a used car (as you say, 3-4 year old) saying it would bring plague and destruction upon your head, whereas it makes perfect sense. So people go for the new ones.

    Edit: I'd be interested to see the nuts and bolts of it in your spreadsheet.
    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    v interesting thanks.
    Would a car new at £35k ever hold £25k value after three years?
    Something like a low mileage 3-series probably would be close. Or a Porsche Boxster. Not a loaded-up Mondeo or anything Japansese or Korean though.
    Tesla residuals are better than other similiar priced cars I think actually.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    GROOMING TRIAL: Hecklers called prosecutors 'slags' and 'hoped they would be raped'

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/17464382.grooming-trial-hecklers-called-prosecutors-slags-and-hoped-they-would-be-raped/

    Lovely families these bastards come from.

    Good to hear that evidence is being sought to prosecute them.

    I see in todays news that Non EU immigration from Asia and Africa is up, matching the drop in EU immigration. Be careful what you wish for, Britain will become less European in many ways as a result of Brexit.
    Serious question. How is that a problem? England (or Britain if that is your bag) is already a huge lovely rock polisher off different cultures all steadily rubbing the edges of each other to make something new, shiny and classically English. Why should it matter where those new pebbles come from?

    Apologies I am a geologist and I am pushing the 'rocky' metaphor a bit.
    The referendum was won by whipping up untrue fears of vast numbers of Muslims descending on Britain.
    You are a stuck record Alastair. No matter how many times you repeat these claims you are still singing 'Highway to Hell' in Esperanto.

    In fact as punishment for your stuck record act you are now condemned to watch this.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_gtGfAail4
    You tricked me.

    That wasn't in Esperanto :-(
    That was absolutely excellent
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    It's worth building depreciation into your calculation. You'd have to be fucked in the head to pay cash for something with cataclysmic residuals like a BMW 7 Series (or your favourite McLaren) but leasing one protects, to an extent, from that.

    My philosophy is too pay cash for cars with blown engines and get them for extraordinarily small amounts of money. I then spend years and three to five times their value repairing and modifying them. I commend this course of action to nobody.
    I like your style, but most others wouldn't. You need space to store a few cars and be handy with a spanner. It's also great fun, and often involves spending time with friends and children, on which you can't put a value.

    Also people need to remember that the cost of maintaining a car is proportional to the cost it was when it was new, not the cost it is now. Cheap second-hand sports or luxury cars can be absolute money pits. If buying a used (but not total shed) luxury car make sure it's got a warranty on it, as they're full of very expensive bits that can go wrong!
    And it is not as if by getting a car through some sort of leasing arrangement, the finance company is kindly offering to suffer the early years depreciation for you.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
    you have lots of more interesting things you could be doing than posting about Brexit
    as have we all, Alan, as have we all. And yet we keep coming back to PB...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Scott_P said:
    When we eventually either leave with May's deal or don't leave, there is going to be some great political knockabout over the total cost, to government and business, of wasting time and money preparing for the no deal that never was.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Pulpstar said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:


    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.

    It's worth building depreciation into your calculation. You'd have to be fucked in the head to pay cash for something with cataclysmic residuals like a BMW 7 Series (or your favourite McLaren) but leasing one protects, to an extent, from that.

    My philosophy is too pay cash for cars with blown engines and get them for extraordinarily small amounts of money. I then spend years and three to five times their value repairing and modifying them. I commend this course of action to nobody.
    https://cleetusmcfarland.com/ does this on his Youtube channel.
    Also Tyler Hoover, who's a journalist with a whole garage full of old exotics. There's also guys like Samcrac and Tavarish who buy written-off cars and get them back on the road. Loads of great YouTube car channels out there.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
    you have lots of more interesting things you could be doing than posting about Brexit
    as have we all, Alan, as have we all. And yet we keep coming back to PB...
    Im on a sort of sabbatical, doing lots of lurking as the next month will just get silly. Im going to knock up a few articles about other things which will divert us for all of 2 mins from the B word, but worth a try.

    At some stage we will have to get back to politics as normal
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,730

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
    you have lots of more interesting things you could be doing than posting about Brexit
    as have we all, Alan, as have we all. And yet we keep coming back to PB...
    Im on a sort of sabbatical, doing lots of lurking as the next month will just get silly. Im going to knock up a few articles about other things which will divert us for all of 2 mins from the B word, but worth a try.

    At some stage we will have to get back to politics as normal
    Politics can stay irrational longer than you can stay sane.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    edited March 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    Okay. Rough numbers.

    Say you've got 10k in cash and would like to buy a car.
    (I'll use simple interest rather then compound interest to make life easier)

    Option 1 New car lease.
    Car Value 35k
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 3 Years
    Interest Rate 3%
    Interest 2,318

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 300
    Final Payment 16,000
    Mileage limit applies, as the dealer needs to make sure the car is worth at least 16k if you choose to hand it back. Expect a fine if car has more than say 27,000 miles on it. More likely it's actually worth 25k so you've got 9k deposit for the next lease...

    Option 2 2nd Hand Car Loan
    Car Value 25k (maybe it is the same car as above, was 35k new but now it's three years old). You may wish to also budget for extended manufacturer's warranty if available.
    Deposit 10k
    Finance 15k
    Term 5 Years.
    Interest Rate 5% (not as good as the lease interest rate)
    Interest 3,900

    Deposit 10,000
    Monthly Payment x36 525
    Final Payment 0
    (Alternatively you can get the payment down to c. 320 by making the loan over 5 years, paying 4,150 in interest)


    Option 3 No Loan
    Spend 10k on a car. If you want a 35k car it's probably 10 years old now, so make sure you budget a little for maintenance.
    v interesting thanks.
    Would a car new at £35k ever hold £25k value after three years?
    Something like a low mileage 3-series probably would be close. Or a Porsche Boxster. Not a loaded-up Mondeo or anything Japansese or Korean though.
    Tesla residuals are better than other similiar priced cars I think actually.
    Yes, they're not too bad but the S and X models are up against massive depreciators in the luxury end of the market. The good news for them is that the batteries seem to be holding up better than expected over time, postponing the point at which they need replacing possibly past 10 years.

    Speaking of Tesla, the big announcment that Mr Tusk was going on about earlier in the week is that they're finally releasing the base version of the Model 3, the long-awaited $35k car that's the game-changer in getting electric cars to the mass-market.
  • This must be the end of Thickie Grayling
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
    you have lots of more interesting things you could be doing than posting about Brexit
    as have we all, Alan, as have we all. And yet we keep coming back to PB...
    Im on a sort of sabbatical, doing lots of lurking as the next month will just get silly. Im going to knock up a few articles about other things which will divert us for all of 2 mins from the B word, but worth a try.

    At some stage we will have to get back to politics as normal
    Politics can stay irrational longer than you can stay sane.
    lol

    William I gre up outside Belfast I have lived surrealism, Bexits just a side show
  • kle4 said:

    Good news: I have successfully completed my month abstaining from chocolate. Now for a month without cheese (Good Brie or otherwise).

    Not on top of no chocolate I hope?
    Err, no - it isn't cumulative!

    Dry January
    DeChox February
    No cheese March
    Crisp-free April

    still thinking about the rest of the year.
    Meat-free May?
    How about May-free April?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
    you have lots of more interesting things you could be doing than posting about Brexit
    as have we all, Alan, as have we all. And yet we keep coming back to PB...
    Im on a sort of sabbatical, doing lots of lurking as the next month will just get silly. Im going to knock up a few articles about other things which will divert us for all of 2 mins from the B word, but worth a try.

    At some stage we will have to get back to politics as normal
    How long until this is politics as normal, rather than a temporary diversion?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Good news: I have successfully completed my month abstaining from chocolate. Now for a month without cheese (Good Brie or otherwise).

    I've had two months with no alcohol, and I tried February with no caffeine.

    The lack of caffeine did f'all to help my sleep patterns, and all it did was make the days seem to drag on. I've had my first cup of coffee in four weeks this morning. ;)
    You will not live any longer , it will just feel twice as long and very very boring. Enjoy life's pleasures.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    It's worth building depreciation into your calculation. You'd have to be fucked in the head to pay cash for something with cataclysmic residuals like a BMW 7 Series (or your favourite McLaren) but leasing one protects, to an extent, from that.

    My philosophy is too pay cash for cars with blown engines and get them for extraordinarily small amounts of money. I then spend years and three to five times their value repairing and modifying them. I commend this course of action to nobody.

    I like your style, but most others wouldn't. You need space to store a few cars and be handy with a spanner. It's also great fun, and often involves spending time with friends and children, on which you can't put a value.

    Also people need to remember that the cost of maintaining a car is proportional to the cost it was when it was new, not the cost it is now. Cheap second-hand sports or luxury cars can be absolute money pits. If buying a used (but not total shed) luxury car make sure it's got a warranty on it, as they're full of very expensive bits that can go wrong!
    And it is not as if by getting a car through some sort of leasing arrangement, the finance company is kindly offering to suffer the early years depreciation for you.
    Hell no, it's all very much in there. The lease deals have a fair amount of fudge in them, 9k in my example, so that there's no way at all the lease company finishes upside-down on any car.

    If you really have to say you have an S-Class or a full-size Range Rover, buy one 2-3 years old and for God's sake make sure you get a comprehensive warranty with it. Or buy two 10-year-old ones, in the hope that you can keep one or other of them serviceable at any particular time. :)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Brom said:

    Has anyone got a shovel for David Lammy? Guy has lost the plot. Moral of the story never attack anyone who's won Strictly.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1101392432841793536

    Within the context of 99.9% of modern comedians being not funny (100% at 6.30pm on R4), that is very funny and absolutely touches on, and supports the point Lammy was making yesterday.
    Something tells me you don't watch much comedy! Or maybe if you do it's Mrs Brown's Boys. The clip in question is terrible both in terms of content and stifled delivery. Even the paying audience don't like it. Whether Lammy is racist or not is a tricky subject but he's certainly had a 24 hours to forget.
    I don't go to comedy clubs any more so no I'm not a connoisseur. But I get what she is saying and it rings true. Are there better people out there also who are more nuanced (Stephen K Amos springs to mind) - perhaps.

    But in the interests of getting his point out there albeit with the subtlety of a claw hammer then I think that tweet was very well judged.
    Says a lot about you if you like Stephen K Amos given his murky past. No doubt a huge Michael Jackson fan too.
    Very interesting. The clip I eg. posted for @Ishmael_Z was posted on my timeline by a Nigerian friend. I'd never heard of him before that and I thought it was quite funny.

    But more interesting is your comment "says a lot about you.."

    I think Michael Jackson's songs are great. I love Picasso's works and those of Eric Gill also. I think The Usual Suspects is a great film.

    What* does* that say about me?
    you have lots of more interesting things you could be doing than posting about Brexit
    as have we all, Alan, as have we all. And yet we keep coming back to PB...
    Im on a sort of sabbatical, doing lots of lurking as the next month will just get silly. Im going to knock up a few articles about other things which will divert us for all of 2 mins from the B word, but worth a try.

    At some stage we will have to get back to politics as normal
    How long until this is politics as normal, rather than a temporary diversion?
    By that I mean well have to get back to real issues like housing education etc

    GE should do it, but maybe we wont have the same party line up

    fingers crossed
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    The desire to feel ourselves better than other people is universal. Some achieve it by buying flash motors they can't afford. Others achieve it by looking down their noses at people who buy flash motors they can't afford. And the third and most exclusive group prefers to stand aside and shake their heads wryly at the behaviour of both of the first two groups.
    I am in a 4th group, chuckling quietly at the antics of the first three.

    Those infinite regresses are a right bugger.
    Some people buy flash motors they can afford , group 5
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Pulpstar said:



    https://cleetusmcfarland.com/ does this on his Youtube channel.

    I'd love a go in Leroy. That thing fucks.
  • IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    When we eventually either leave with May's deal or don't leave, there is going to be some great political knockabout over the total cost, to government and business, of wasting time and money preparing for the no deal that never was.
    The legal costs of Brexit will be never-ending. Just imagine the field day for lawyers that will ensue from ripping up 40 years' worth of legislation!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Big thanks to the PBer who put me onto the Steam Punk weekend in Lincoln (Was it Richard Tyndell?).

    Hotel rooms booked and looking forward to it.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,811
    malcolmg said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    The desire to feel ourselves better than other people is universal. Some achieve it by buying flash motors they can't afford. Others achieve it by looking down their noses at people who buy flash motors they can't afford. And the third and most exclusive group prefers to stand aside and shake their heads wryly at the behaviour of both of the first two groups.
    I am in a 4th group, chuckling quietly at the antics of the first three.

    Those infinite regresses are a right bugger.
    Some people buy flash motors they can afford , group 5
    They are the worst.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    malcolmg said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    The desire to feel ourselves better than other people is universal. Some achieve it by buying flash motors they can't afford. Others achieve it by looking down their noses at people who buy flash motors they can't afford. And the third and most exclusive group prefers to stand aside and shake their heads wryly at the behaviour of both of the first two groups.
    I am in a 4th group, chuckling quietly at the antics of the first three.

    Those infinite regresses are a right bugger.
    Some people buy flash motors they can afford , group 5
    They are the worst.
    You really love me, admit it.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900

    Indeed, a relative just finding this out. What a bunch of crooks - seems they make all their profit by inventing damage afterwards.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,010
    edited March 2019

    This must be the end of Thickie Grayling

    I'm sure I've read that sentence or similar before.

    Loads of times in fact.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,811
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    The desire to feel ourselves better than other people is universal. Some achieve it by buying flash motors they can't afford. Others achieve it by looking down their noses at people who buy flash motors they can't afford. And the third and most exclusive group prefers to stand aside and shake their heads wryly at the behaviour of both of the first two groups.
    I am in a 4th group, chuckling quietly at the antics of the first three.

    Those infinite regresses are a right bugger.
    Some people buy flash motors they can afford , group 5
    They are the worst.
    You really love me, admit it.
    Of course. Personally I am a member of the elite 6th group - people who could afford to buy a flash motor but choose not too. Our smugness is truly a sight to behold.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,622

    This must be the end of Thickie Grayling

    We need to get through Brexit, then have a clear-out of all those no-hopers in Government, starting with May - and those she keeps in Cabinet for inexplicable reasons....
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Happy St David’s day, all.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    edited March 2019

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    SNIP
    I am in a 4th group, chuckling quietly at the antics of the first three.

    Those infinite regresses are a right bugger.
    Some people buy flash motors they can afford , group 5
    They are the worst.
    You really love me, admit it.
    Of course. Personally I am a member of the elite 6th group - people who could afford to buy a flash motor but choose not too. Our smugness is truly a sight to behold.
    Good for you.
    PS: Some scumbag keyed my new car, ugly 18" scratch on back door.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Happy St David’s day, all.

    Ah yes, so it is. Happy St David's Day to all Welsh PBers!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,622
    There seems a certain black humour at work that he should be Lord Nazir Ahmed of Rotherham....

    "Two other men, Mohammed Farouq, 68, and Mohammed Tariq, 63, both from Rotherham, have also been charged, South Yorkshire Police said."

    Things that make you go "Hmmmmmm......"
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580
    Floater said:

    Big thanks to the PBer who put me onto the Steam Punk weekend in Lincoln (Was it Richard Tyndell?).

    Hotel rooms booked and looking forward to it.

    Indeed. Hope to get there myself work allowing.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,219
    edited March 2019
    Andrew said:

    Sandpit said:

    When handing in the lease car at the end of the three years, you'd better hope it's not got any car park rash or scuffed bumpers, no kids have been sick in the back or adventurous with the crayons - beacuse you'll be putting your hand in your pocket for fixing any damage that's not considered fair wear and tear.

    Indeed, a relative just finding this out. What a bunch of crooks - seems they make all their profit by inventing damage afterwards.
    I was sure glad I had/have a half knackered 09 Peugeot rather than some flash PCP job when my other half attempted to take half the door off driving round our drive gates.
    Mind you my friend has just done the same with his front corner on his gates this morning. His is his pride and joy Chevrolet Camaro !

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:

    Big thanks to the PBer who put me onto the Steam Punk weekend in Lincoln (Was it Richard Tyndell?).

    Hotel rooms booked and looking forward to it.

    Indeed. Hope to get there myself work allowing.
    Thanks again
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    The desire to feel ourselves better than other people is universal. Some achieve it by buying flash motors they can't afford. Others achieve it by looking down their noses at people who buy flash motors they can't afford. And the third and most exclusive group prefers to stand aside and shake their heads wryly at the behaviour of both of the first two groups.
    I am in a 4th group, chuckling quietly at the antics of the first three.

    Those infinite regresses are a right bugger.
    Some people buy flash motors they can afford , group 5
    They are the worst.
    You really love me, admit it.
    Nice Avatar pic Malc - is it new or have I not being paying attention?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    It's true and it's not true

    It measures debt held by national banks vs income in those countries.

    Sensible enough?

    No. Because it means that if a Norwegian bank lends to a German, it gets added to the Norwegian debt to income number, rather than the German.

    The consequence of this is that a few very international banks in small countries, like SEB in Sweden and Nordbank in Norway, completely distort the figures.

    (That being said, Denmark has a scary mortgage debt problem.)
    So basically take away those countries likely to be lending into larger economies adjacent, and the Uk is right at the upper end. Although Australia appears to have a big problem?
    They have extremely low public debt though - less than 20% of GDP (and even that's a steep rise from the Howard years where for a time they had net credit).

    https://theconversation.com/factcheck-has-australias-net-debt-doubled-under-the-current-government-100819

    Edit - and don't forget we have a fair number of international banks as well, although I fully agree we are over-leveraged as an economy.
    The average UK household is now a net borrower:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1101388088197169152?s=19

    There are a lot of skint people out there living beyond their means.
    I have often pondered assembling a photo album of small, terraced houses with huge eff off range rovers parked outside them. Would be a large album.
    The deboth of the first two groups.
    I am in a 4th group, chuckling quietly at the antics of the first three.

    Those infinite regresses are a right bugger.
    Some people buy flash motors they can afford , group 5
    They are the worst.
    You really love me, admit it.
    Of course. Personally I am a member of the elite 6th group - people who could afford to buy a flash motor but choose not too. Our smugness is truly a sight to behold.
    No smugness in this quarter - I just am not going to spend that sort of money on a car.

    My friend on the other hand is unbelievably smug about his Merc convertible - I laughed like a drain when another friend told me it was leased not purchased.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    This must be the end of Thickie Grayling

    I'm sure I've read that sentence or similar before.

    Loads of times in fact.
    After his recent appointment one has to wonder which will happen first - the resignation of Lord Falconer, or the end of Failing Grayling?
  • Mr. Rentool, a month without chocolate?

    One shudders to think of the sin that requires such penance.

    Horrific. I had to suffer a spell without chocolate as some pills I was on briefly caused interesting side effects if I ate chocolate. I discovered this the hard way as there was no mention of any issue in the patient info sheet. Just one jaffa cake & 15 mins later I was running for the loo - galloping diarrhea... The elimination process on the food was fun.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    Floater said:

    Big thanks to the PBer who put me onto the Steam Punk weekend in Lincoln (Was it Richard Tyndell?).

    Hotel rooms booked and looking forward to it.

    PB space buffs might also be interested in the Blue Dot Festival in Cheshire this July. Kraftwerk and New Order headline and excellent science and astronomy sessions.

    https://www.discoverthebluedot.com/homepage
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Megalomaniacs, chocolate's my main culinary indulgence. It's fantastic stuff.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    kle4 said:

    Good news: I have successfully completed my month abstaining from chocolate. Now for a month without cheese (Good Brie or otherwise).

    Not on top of no chocolate I hope?
    Err, no - it isn't cumulative!

    Dry January
    DeChox February
    No cheese March
    Crisp-free April

    still thinking about the rest of the year.
    Meat-free May?
    How about May-free April?
    Or an EU free 2022 when May finally passes her deal at the 35th attempt!
  • Mr. Megalomaniacs, chocolate's my main culinary indulgence. It's fantastic stuff.

    Oh yes. I've found the high quality stuff with high percentages of cocoa causes lucid dreams which are great. The downside is if I eat any after 8pm I get nightmares instead...
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Scott_P said:
    Shame that the BBC resorts to misleading tweets like this. What the Govt has done is agree to buy in the future 33 million pounds of freight capacity to secure medical supplies.
    Implying that the Govt has caved in a paid 33 million as compensation is not correct.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    This thread has defected.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited March 2019
    malcolmg said:

    Of course. Personally I am a member of the elite 6th group - people who could afford to buy a flash motor but choose not too. Our smugness is truly a sight to behold.

    Good for you.
    PS: Some scumbag keyed my new car, ugly 18" scratch on back door.
    A Tory no doubt. Probably a 'Wessmincer Tooory' at that.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Mr. Rentool, a month without chocolate?

    One shudders to think of the sin that requires such penance.

    Horrific. I had to suffer a spell without chocolate as some pills I was on briefly caused interesting side effects if I ate chocolate. I discovered this the hard way as there was no mention of any issue in the patient info sheet. Just one jaffa cake & 15 mins later I was running for the loo - galloping diarrhea... The elimination process on the food was fun.
    Sounds as if you were eliminating it perfectly well.
This discussion has been closed.