It could not be offered because FoM is one of the pillars of the EU and is seen by the other 27 as more important than UK membership. FoM is a very valuable aspect of the EU, it is just that tabloids and right wingers convinced people it was a bad thing when in reality it has helped bring considerable prosperity to Europe and the UK. It was our government that has been responsible for not mitigating the perceived downsides, and TMay and her predecessors in the Labour government are heavily responsible for where we are now.
It is also a function of our non-contributory Health & Benefits system (fairly unusual in Europe, where many countries operate on a contributory basis) which governments of no party is willing to touch....so people can roll up and start claiming......which some feel is "unfair". Of course the overwhelming majority of EU migrants are net-contributors to the UK (and are in total too) - but its the beggars and Big Issue sellers people notice, not the hard working nurses, doctors, plumbers etc etc.
Yea Mr Stereotomy, the Conservative Party it is so institutionally Islamophobic that it would never have a home secretary who was a Muslim of Pakistani descent would it? Duh!!!
As a non-religious Jew brought up in a Christian society and as the child of Germans who escaped the Holocaust, let me give some Jewish perspective here on the fundamental difference between the Labour and Conservative Parties on anti-Semitism. Let’s start by noting that while anti-Semitism has always been present in both parties, until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, it was never prevalent in either. Indeed post-War, both parties have largely been very welcoming of Jews. The problem that we now have is that the change in leadership of the Labour Party has allowed the Hard Left, believers in the Jewish Conspiracy, incapable of distinguishing between Israel and Judaism, and breaching the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in regard to how they measure Israel in a way that they would never measure any other country, to take control of the levers of power. Whether Corbyn is an anti-Semite is debatable but it’s worth noting that he has been made aware of the problem in his Party and, according to Jonathan Goldstein in his meetings with Corbyn on the subject, he has been shocked at the complete lack of interest Corbyn has in the problem. Irrespective of his historical view that Jews control the global banking system, his unerring support for Hamas and Hizbollah, his conflation of Israel and Zionism, his insulting comments on Jews and so forth, the very least that he is guilty of is anti-Semitism by association but Corbyn’s total indifference can only validate that he is an anti-Semite. This has nothing to do with his politics. I don’t remember anyone criticising Michael Foot in this way, although the Soviet spy had many other failings that made him a danger to the country
Smearing a dead Labour leader does not instill confidence in your judgement on the current one.
On that logic is it OK to smear Churchill (a dead Tory leader)?
A much ignored aspect of the SM v FoM polling issue is that millions of moderates - centre, centre right and centre left - naturally think that the general principle of the single market is on balance an excellent thing, and that for a nation such as the UK to have the right to say who can live there permanently, while having a fairly open and generous view about it, is also an excellent thing. The absurdity of the issue is that both these positions are entirely moderate and in principle entirely compatible. It is a skewed political decision, done without wholehearted consent of the UK population, to force us to choose between the two. Having to choose between the two makes moderates sound like extremists. hence the ridiculous position that Remainers often regard Brexiteers as extreme because they have had to choose between good outcomes. This pollutes the entire debate.
I think people have different views as to what is the General Principal of the SM. I can assume from your post it maybe FoM in your view but just to clarify is this correct?
The big thing to most people about the SM is frictionless trade. Making, buying and selling widgets however multi tasking and complex is the same system between Riga and Nantes as it is between Birmingham and Scunthorpe. But we take for granted, for example, that being a solicitor qualified to practice and appear in court in England does NOT qualify to do so in Latvia, or indeed even in Scotland and NI. So what we regard as a SM has limits. These limits with regard to lawyers are in general imposed by the constraints of the nation (Scotland) or state (UK). SM as practiced requires enormous regulatory alignment; to practice it with regard to lawyers would require having a single legal system - that is a single European nation state.
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
It could not be offered because FoM is one of the pillars of the EU and is seen by the other 27 as more important than UK membership. FoM is a very valuable aspect of the EU, it is just that tabloids and right wingers convinced people it was a bad thing when in reality it has helped bring considerable prosperity to Europe and the UK. It was our government that has been responsible for not mitigating the perceived downsides, and TMay and her predecessors in the Labour government are heavily responsible for where we are now.
We are agreed on most things. FoM was not working in social and political terms but did not get properly addressed.
Yea Mr Stereotomy, the Conservative Party it is so institutionally Islamophobic that it would never have a home secretary who was a Muslim of Pakistani descent would it? Duh!!!
To be fair, there was Ed Miliband. I am not sure you can say that much about the instincts of a party from the career of an individual.
India and Pakistan seem intent on testing the destructive ability of modern atomic weapons, trump and Kim are having a laugh together and Corbyn is dithering. Another normal day in the world
The majority of British Muslims (52%) according to polling think gay people should be locked up (compared to only 5% of the general population) and a further 30% did not have an opinion on the matter. Four in ten thought wives should always obey their husbands.
It does make one wonder what drives the atheist Chinese government, the Hindu nationalist government in India (vs Pakistan), the Burmese and to a less extent Thai Buddhist nations and the Israeli Jewish state to not look too favourably on their Muslim minorities or neighbouring states. Let alone how Christians including Yazidis in the middle east may feel too.
Given this seems to be a global issue what can we do to promote greater tolerance?
If you believe that Muslims are on the whole backward primitives whose values are out of step with 'ours' why not just say that?
A much ignored aspect of the SM v FoM polling issue is that millions of moderates - centre, centre right and centre left - naturally think that the general principle of the single market is on balance an excellent thing, and that for a nation such as the UK to have the right to say who can live there permanently, while having a fairly open and generous view about it, is also an excellent thing. The absurdity of the issue is that both these positions are entirely moderate and in principle entirely compatible. It is a skewed political decision, done without wholehearted consent of the UK population, to force us to choose between the two. Having to choose between the two makes moderates sound like extremists. hence the ridiculous position that Remainers often regard Brexiteers as extreme because they have had to choose between good outcomes. This pollutes the entire debate.
I think people have different views as to what is the General Principal of the SM. I can assume from your post it maybe FoM in your view but just to clarify is this correct?
The big thing to most people about the SM is frictionless trade. Making, buying and selling widgets however multi tasking and complex is the same system between Riga and Nantes as it is between Birmingham and Scunthorpe. But we take for granted, for example, that being a solicitor qualified to practice and appear in court in England does NOT qualify to do so in Latvia, or indeed even in Scotland and NI. So what we regard as a SM has limits. These limits with regard to lawyers are in general imposed by the constraints of the nation (Scotland) or state (UK). SM as practiced requires enormous regulatory alignment; to practice it with regard to lawyers would require having a single legal system - that is a single European nation state.
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
Personally I think Cameron was silly to mention restricting FoM by asking the EU to do it. All the Govt had to do was restrict access to the welfare state both in work and out of work for a period of years based on residency or NI contributions and FoM would have solved itself. For clarification I am not saying EU people come here to live on benefits, but they are a major part of the total remuneration for low skilled low paid immigrants.
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
Except it wouldn't have avoided anything. The hardline Eurosceptics don't care about free movement and had something like that been offered, they would have still campaigned just as virulently. Given that Brexit was in many ways a proxy vote against non-EU immigration, the concession wouldn't have had the desired effect anyway.
Indeed. It is rarely commented on that 50% of our pre-referendum immigration was non EU and TMay did nothing about it, even though she had full powers to do so. Prior to her, the Labour government actively encouraged it to wind up the Tory shires.
As a non-religious Jew brought up in a Christian society and as the child of Germans who escaped the Holocaust, let me give some Jewish perspective here on the fundamental difference between the Labour and Conservative Parties on anti-Semitism. Let’s start by noting that while anti-Semitism has always been present in both parties, until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, it was never prevalent in either. Indeed post-War, both parties have largely been very welcoming of Jews. The problem that we now have is that the change in leadership of the Labour Party has allowed the Hard Left, believers in the Jewish Conspiracy, incapable of distinguishing between Israel and Judaism, and breaching the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in regard to how they measure Israel in a way that they would never measure any other country, to take control of the levers of power. Whether Corbyn is an anti-Semite is debatable but it’s worth noting that he has been made aware of the problem in his Party and, according to Jonathan Goldstein in his meetings with Corbyn on the subject, he has been shocked at the complete lack of interest Corbyn has in the problem. Irrespective of his historical view that Jews control the global banking system, his unerring support for Hamas and Hizbollah, his conflation of Israel and Zionism, his insulting comments on Jews and so forth, the very least that he is guilty of is anti-Semitism by association but Corbyn’s total indifference can only validate that he is an anti-Semite. This has nothing to do with his politics. I don’t remember anyone criticising Michael Foot in this way, although the Soviet spy had many other failings that made him a danger to the country
Smearing a dead Labour leader does not instill confidence in your judgement on the current one.
Indeed. Would perhaps have been a reasonable analysis but for that unnecessary and wildly inaccurate slur on someone who, whatever one thinks of his political beliefs, never wavered in his patriotism.
A much ignored aspect of the SM v FoM polling issue is that millions of moderates - centre, centre right and centre left - naturally think that the general principle of the single market is on balance an excellent thing, and that for a nation such as the UK to have the right to say who can live there permanently, while having a fairly open and generous view about it, is also an excellent thing. The absurdity of the issue is that both these positions are entirely moderate and in principle entirely compatible. It is a skewed political decision, done without wholehearted consent of the UK population, to force us to choose between the two. Having to choose between the two makes moderates sound like extremists. hence the ridiculous position that Remainers often regard Brexiteers as extreme because they have had to choose between good outcomes. This pollutes the entire debate.
I think people have different views as to what is the General Principal of the SM. I can assume from your post it maybe FoM in your view but just to clarify is this correct?
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
But one of the foundations of the Single Movement is freedom of movement.
Due to the ease of access to our benefits system it's a lot easier to move to the UK for work then it is to move to Holland, France and Germany. This is one of the biggest reasons why we have so many people from Eastern Europe doing low pay work. And the fix was to solve it back in 2005 when people who understood the attractiveness of a no prior contributory benefit system saw the likely issue. Brown and Blair of course knew better and the Tories ignored the issue as it was too painful to look like the bad guys...
FoM was in the original Treaty of Rome 1957, long before the SM. So no, FoM is not one of the foundations of the single market, the single market is all about regulatory trust between the individual nations of the EU/EEA.
As a non-religious Jew brought up in a Christian society and as the child of Germans who escaped the Holocaust, let me give some Jewish perspective here on the fundamental difference between the Labour and Conservative Parties on anti-Semitism. Let’s start by noting that while anti-Semitism has always been present in both parties, until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, it was never prevalent in either. Indeed post-War, both parties have largely been very welcoming of Jews. The problem that we now have is that the change in leadership of the Labour Party has allowed the Hard Left, believers in the Jewish Conspiracy, incapable of distinguishing between Israel and Judaism, and breaching the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in regard to how they measure Israel in a way that they would never measure any other country, to take control of the levers of power. Whether Corbyn is an anti-Semite is debatable but it’s worth noting that he has been made aware of the problem in his Party and, according to Jonathan Goldstein in his meetings with Corbyn on the subject, he has been shocked at the complete lack of interest Corbyn has in the problem. Irrespective of his historical view that Jews control the global banking system, his unerring support for Hamas and Hizbollah, his conflation of Israel and Zionism, his insulting comments on Jews and so forth, the very least that he is guilty of is anti-Semitism by association but Corbyn’s total indifference can only validate that he is an anti-Semite. This has nothing to do with his politics. I don’t remember anyone criticising Michael Foot in this way, although the Soviet spy had many other failings that made him a danger to the country
Smearing a dead Labour leader does not instill confidence in your judgement on the current one.
Indeed. Would perhaps have been a reasonable analysis but for that unnecessary and wildly inaccurate slur on someone who, whatever one thinks of his political beliefs, never wavered in his patriotism.
I disagree with much of what Foot believed - but I've never doubted his patriotism or believed he was a Soviet mole or agent.
The majority of British Muslims (52%) according to polling think gay people should be locked up (compared to only 5% of the general population) and a further 30% did not have an opinion on the matter. Four in ten thought wives should always obey their husbands.
It does make one wonder what drives the atheist Chinese government, the Hindu nationalist government in India (vs Pakistan), the Burmese and to a less extent Thai Buddhist nations and the Israeli Jewish state to not look too favourably on their Muslim minorities or neighbouring states. Let alone how Christians including Yazidis in the middle east may feel too.
Given this seems to be a global issue what can we do to promote greater tolerance?
Whoa, I almost got trampled in the stampede of PBers rushing to condemn this comment
A much ignored aspect of the SM v FoM polling issue is that millions of moderates - centre, centre right and centre left - naturally think that the general principle of the single market is on balance an excellent thing, and that for a nation such as the UK to have the right to say who can live there permanently, while having a fairly open and generous view about it, is also an excellent thing. The absurdity of the issue is that both these positions are entirely moderate and in principle entirely compatible. It is a skewed political decision, done without wholehearted consent of the UK population, to force us to choose between the two. Having to choose between the two makes moderates sound like extremists. hence the ridiculous position that Remainers often regard Brexiteers as extreme because they have had to choose between good outcomes. This pollutes the entire debate.
I think people have different views as to what is the General Principal of the SM. I can assume from your post it maybe FoM in your view but just to clarify is this correct?
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
But one of the foundations of the Single Movement is freedom of movement.
Due to the ease of access to our benefits system it's a lot easier to move to the UK for work then it is to move to Holland, France and Germany. This is one of the biggest reasons why we have so many people from Eastern Europe doing low pay work. And the fix was to solve it back in 2005 when people who understood the attractiveness of a no prior contributory benefit system saw the likely issue. Brown and Blair of course knew better and the Tories ignored the issue as it was too painful to look like the bad guys...
FoM was in the original Treaty of Rome 1957, long before the SM. So no, FoM is not one of the foundations of the single market, the single market is all about regulatory trust between the individual nations of the EU/EEA.
I think you are slightly splitting hairs here between Common Market - as specified in the Treaty of Rome wrt the 'four freedoms', and the "Single Market".
It could not be offered because FoM is one of the pillars of the EU and is seen by the other 27 as more important than UK membership. FoM is a very valuable aspect of the EU, it is just that tabloids and right wingers convinced people it was a bad thing when in reality it has helped bring considerable prosperity to Europe and the UK. It was our government that has been responsible for not mitigating the perceived downsides, and TMay and her predecessors in the Labour government are heavily responsible for where we are now.
It is also a function of our non-contributory Health & Benefits system (fairly unusual in Europe, where many countries operate on a contributory basis) which governments of no party is willing to touch....so people can roll up and start claiming......which some feel is "unfair". Of course the overwhelming majority of EU migrants are net-contributors to the UK (and are in total too) - but its the beggars and Big Issue sellers people notice, not the hard working nurses, doctors, plumbers etc etc.
A good point; this aspect was certainly used as a cynical political stick. It would be interesting to know how balanced the use of UK health is when considering net contributors versus the British retired individuals (mainly in Spain) who use European healthcare systems under the reciprocal agreement.
By the way, I don't endorse BJO's whataboutery. But I do think that the next time we vote, we should be clear-eyed about the problems in all the parties we're being asked to choose between, not just one of them. And I think that anyone who treats antisemitism and Islamophobia differently (in either direction) should be asking themselves why.
Rather like 'playing the race card' the charge of whataboutery can be valid or it can be merely a debating technique.
For example, I could decide to talk relentlessly all day every day about racism and Islamophobia on the right. And every time someone replies with a reference to antisemitism on the left I could wearily shake my head, say 'pathetic, that is just whataboutery', and then carry on undeflected.
From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll
From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll
And what's their will if no such guarantee is forthcoming?
The majority of British Muslims (52%) according to polling think gay people should be locked up (compared to only 5% of the general population) and a further 30% did not have an opinion on the matter. Four in ten thought wives should always obey their husbands.
It does make one wonder what drives the atheist Chinese government, the Hindu nationalist government in India (vs Pakistan), the Burmese and to a less extent Thai Buddhist nations and the Israeli Jewish state to not look too favourably on their Muslim minorities or neighbouring states. Let alone how Christians including Yazidis in the middle east may feel too.
Given this seems to be a global issue what can we do to promote greater tolerance?
If you believe that Muslims are on the whole backward primitives whose values are out of step with 'ours' why not just say that?
It's not anti-semitic so you won't get jumped on.
That is a rather simplistic view. I am quite willing to say Islam is institutionally archaic, misogynistic and homophobic, but then I would suggest the Catholic Church and many Evangelical churches too, as well as some orthodox Judaism.
That doesn't mean that Individuals are inevitably archaic, misogynistic and homophobic in those organisations. The nessecary thing in liberal democracies is to be tolerant and respectful to beliefs, religious or secular, of others whether one is in agreement or disagreement with them, and to treat people equally.
Any suspension now can be spun as after an intervention by the PM. As usual he's left it too late
Milne and co are worried there is a ton more footage out of various other of their outriders saying same thing I reckon.
I'd imagine there's plenty
Brilliantly played by May (for once!): if Corbyn sacks Williamson, then he looks like a weakling following the orders of a Tory PM; if he doesn't, then Labour falls ever deeper into chaos and public contempt. Bravo!
From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll
Have you a link to todays polling. I must have missed it. Thank you
India and Pakistan seem intent on testing the destructive ability of modern atomic weapons, trump and Kim are having a laugh together and Corbyn is dithering. Another normal day in the world
I'm not sure the true owners of Pakistan's nukes, Saudi Arabia, wants them wasted on the sub-continent....
"FoM was not working in social and political terms but did not get properly addressed."
I don't know if you saw the BBC documentary on recent events in the EU, but there's an eye-opening scene where Merkel was discussing where to put the economic migrants coming to Europe. I didn't see countries concerned being consulted until later.
PS My sister lived in Algakirk a while back, but now she's moved to the outskirts of Sutterton. It's heavy Leaver country there.
Criticize in a highly partisan fashion is not the same as smearing.
It is in the lexicon of the average Corbyn supporter, particularly the likes of "Jezziah". Anyone criticises Mr. Thicky and they are "smearing" him. It is pathetic.
From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll
And what's their will if no such guarantee is forthcoming?
Well given only 14% back No Deal to 30% for May's Deal and most oppose extension beyond 6 months still May's Deal even if the 'guarantee' is mainly an ambition
From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll
Have you a link to todays polling. I must have missed it. Thank you
The majority of British Muslims (52%) according to polling think gay people should be locked up (compared to only 5% of the general population) and a further 30% did not have an opinion on the matter. Four in ten thought wives should always obey their husbands.
It does make one wonder what drives the atheist Chinese government, the Hindu nationalist government in India (vs Pakistan), the Burmese and to a less extent Thai Buddhist nations and the Israeli Jewish state to not look too favourably on their Muslim minorities or neighbouring states. Let alone how Christians including Yazidis in the middle east may feel too.
Given this seems to be a global issue what can we do to promote greater tolerance?
If you believe that Muslims are on the whole backward primitives whose values are out of step with 'ours' why not just say that?
It's not anti-semitic so you won't get jumped on.
That doesn't mean that Individuals are inevitably archaic, misogynistic and homophobic in those organisations.
Not inevitably, but the more you define yourself by a religion and the more devout that religion claims itself to be, the greater the risk that followers (or a good proportion of them) will hold those views. Regardless of the religion.
"From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll."
That sounds reasonable to this racist, xenophobic leaver. When will it be on offer?
The majority of British Muslims (52%) according to polling think gay people should be locked up (compared to only 5% of the general population) and a further 30% did not have an opinion on the matter. Four in ten thought wives should always obey their husbands.
It does make one wonder what drives the atheist Chinese government, the Hindu nationalist government in India (vs Pakistan), the Burmese and to a less extent Thai Buddhist nations and the Israeli Jewish state to not look too favourably on their Muslim minorities or neighbouring states. Let alone how Christians including Yazidis in the middle east may feel too.
Given this seems to be a global issue what can we do to promote greater tolerance?
If you believe that Muslims are on the whole backward primitives whose values are out of step with 'ours' why not just say that?
It's not anti-semitic so you won't get jumped on.
That is a rather simplistic view. I am quite willing to say Islam is institutionally archaic, misogynistic and homophobic, but then I would suggest the Catholic Church and many Evangelical churches too, as well as some orthodox Judaism.
That doesn't mean that Individuals are inevitably archaic, misogynistic and homophobic in those organisations. The nessecary thing in liberal democracies is to be tolerant and respectful to beliefs, religious or secular, of others whether one is in agreement or disagreement with them, and to treat people equally.
+1
The silence on here about the Pope's recent comments wrt abuse is quite telling.
Far too many people are concerned with the identities of perpetrators, rather than the welfare of victims.
A colleague of mine was arrested in Jakarta yesterday. He was wearing an old T shirt which bore the flags of many countries from around the world. including, as it happened, the old soviet flag with the hammer and sickle.
Turns out it is illegal in Indonesia to display any symbols of communism. He was released with a warning 3 hours later and had no complaints at all about his treatment. But it serves as a warning for anyone travelling there to be aware of their local laws, however obscure.
"From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll."
That sounds reasonable to this racist, xenophobic leaver. When will it be on offer?
Criticize in a highly partisan fashion is not the same as smearing.
It is in the lexicon of the average Corbyn supporter, particularly the likes of "Jezziah". Anyone criticises Mr. Thicky and they are "smearing" him. It is pathetic.
And "criticism" is sometimes "directly quoting Corbyn's own words"
From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll
Have you a link to todays polling. I must have missed it. Thank you
Again, he is reducing it to semantics and a process issue.
Here is Chris Williamson's previous apology from two months ago when he retweeted a petition in support of antisemite Gilad Atzmon. Atzmon lost a libel action with the Chairman of the Campaign Against Antisemitism when he claimed that antisemitic incidents had been "fabricated". That was in November, Williamson supported the petition in December. A thread worth reading.
Perhaps they should just suspend him for being a clueless goon who lives with his head in a bucket if they can't bring themselves to take suitably strong action against Jew-baiters.
Completely off topic (or is it) but does anyone else think that Theresa May might have just played a blinder yesterday?
If she plays this right, I can see the UK leaving on the 30th June with her Deal (unamended).
The way I see it:
12th March - she loses the Meaningful Vote again, by another heavy margin. Listening to Iain Duncan Smith frothing last night on PM, its clear the ERG are never going to support it. 13th March - Leaving with no deal is also heavily defeated. 14th March - By a narrow margin, Parliament votes to extend Article 50.
The EU agree such an extension and off May goes, back and forth throughout April and May and gets the sum total of naff all. Crucially, but importantly, we fail to hold EU Parliamentary elections.
Early/Mid June - another vote on her Deal. But this time it really is Deal or No Deal. We can't revoke and remain because we have no MEPs. We can't extend further for the same reason.
So suddenly, a huge number of remainer MPs are trapped. And therefore they abandon all pretence of 'supporting a second referendum' and the Deal goes through.
Has she played a blinder?
Of course, I also realise that this path is fraught with problems. What if MPs *don't* vote to extend A50? What if the EU don't? What if, getting wind of this plan/idea, Remainers and ERG no dealers VONC their own government? Or even the EU, still trying to get us to Remain, offer to let us hold emergency elections in (say) September if we only agree to Remain? Or maybe MacMillans "Events dear boy, events" happen?
Completely off topic (or is it) but does anyone else think that Theresa May might have just played a blinder yesterday?
If she plays this right, I can see the UK leaving on the 30th June with her Deal (unamended).
The way I see it:
12th March - she loses the Meaningful Vote again, by another heavy margin. Listening to Iain Duncan Smith frothing last night on PM, its clear the ERG are never going to support it. 13th March - Leaving with no deal is also heavily defeated. 14th March - By a narrow margin, Parliament votes to extend Article 50.
The EU agree such an extension and off May goes, back and forth throughout April and May and gets the sum total of naff all. Crucially, but importantly, we fail to hold EU Parliamentary elections.
Early/Mid June - another vote on her Deal. But this time it really is Deal or No Deal. We can't revoke and remain because we have no MEPs. We can't extend further for the same reason.
So suddenly, a huge number of remainer MPs are trapped. And therefore they abandon all pretence of 'supporting a second referendum' and the Deal goes through.
Has she played a blinder?
Of course, I also realise that this path is fraught with problems. What if MPs *don't* vote to extend A50? What if the EU don't? What if, getting wind of this plan/idea, Remainers and ERG no dealers VONC their own government? Or even the EU, still trying to get us to Remain, offer to let us hold emergency elections in (say) September if we only agree to Remain? Or maybe MacMillans "Events dear boy, events" happen?
Agree on conclusion but more likely ERG will have to cave as if we get an extension EUref2 becomes more likely than No Deal given the Commons median MP is a soft Brexiteer
From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll
Have you a link to todays polling. I must have missed it. Thank you
Yes the voters are warming to May's Deal, they clearly do not want No Deal or a long extension of Article 50 and delay to Brexit either, so the Deal it will have to be
From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll
Have you a link to todays polling. I must have missed it. Thank you
Yes the voters are warning to May's Deal, they clearly do not want No Deal or a long extension of Article 50 and delay to Brexit either, so the Deal it will have to be
Not so much warming to it, as realising they can live with it. It's the second best option for a very large number of people.
The majority of British Muslims (52%) according to polling think gay people should be locked up (compared to only 5% of the general population) and a further 30% did not have an opinion on the matter. Four in ten thought wives should always obey their husbands.
It does make one wonder what drives the atheist Chinese government, the Hindu nationalist government in India (vs Pakistan), the Burmese and to a less extent Thai Buddhist nations and the Israeli Jewish state to not look too favourably on their Muslim minorities or neighbouring states. Let alone how Christians including Yazidis in the middle east may feel too.
Given this seems to be a global issue what can we do to promote greater tolerance?
If you believe that Muslims are on the whole backward primitives whose values are out of step with 'ours' why not just say that?
It's not anti-semitic so you won't get jumped on.
That is a rather simplistic view. I am quite willing to say Islam is institutionally archaic, misogynistic and homophobic, but then I would suggest the Catholic Church and many Evangelical churches too, as well as some orthodox Judaism.
That doesn't mean that Individuals are inevitably archaic, misogynistic and homophobic in those organisations. The nessecary thing in liberal democracies is to be tolerant and respectful to beliefs, religious or secular, of others whether one is in agreement or disagreement with them, and to treat people equally.
I think this is just about spot on. My only comment would be that, as an atheist, I think we give way too much latitude to religious groups and allow them to do things in the name of their religion that we would never allow for any other community grouping.
But I still feel that all religious groups exert an unwelcome and excessive amount of influence on our society and our institutions.
Completely off topic (or is it) but does anyone else think that Theresa May might have just played a blinder yesterday?
If she plays this right, I can see the UK leaving on the 30th June with her Deal (unamended).
The way I see it:
12th March - she loses the Meaningful Vote again, by another heavy margin. Listening to Iain Duncan Smith frothing last night on PM, its clear the ERG are never going to support it. 13th March - Leaving with no deal is also heavily defeated. 14th March - By a narrow margin, Parliament votes to extend Article 50.
The EU agree such an extension and off May goes, back and forth throughout April and May and gets the sum total of naff all. Crucially, but importantly, we fail to hold EU Parliamentary elections.
Early/Mid June - another vote on her Deal. But this time it really is Deal or No Deal. We can't revoke and remain because we have no MEPs. We can't extend further for the same reason.
So suddenly, a huge number of remainer MPs are trapped. And therefore they abandon all pretence of 'supporting a second referendum' and the Deal goes through.
Has she played a blinder?
Of course, I also realise that this path is fraught with problems. What if MPs *don't* vote to extend A50? What if the EU don't? What if, getting wind of this plan/idea, Remainers and ERG no dealers VONC their own government? Or even the EU, still trying to get us to Remain, offer to let us hold emergency elections in (say) September if we only agree to Remain? Or maybe MacMillans "Events dear boy, events" happen?
Agree on conclusion but more likely ERG will have to cave as if we get an extension EUref2 becomes more likely than No Deal given the Commons median MP is a soft Brexiteer
The question as to how the EU Parliament unwravels the reallocation of the UK MEPs after the other countries have elected theirs is however an interesting one.
A much ignored aspect of the SM v FoM polling issue is that millions of moderates - centre, centre right and centre left - naturally think that the general principle of the single market is on balance an excellent thing, and that for a nation such as the UK to have the right to say who can live there permanently, while having a fairly open and generous view about it, is also an excellent thing. The absurdity of the issue is that both these positions are entirely moderate and in principle entirely compatible. It is a skewed political decision, done without wholehearted consent of the UK population, to force us to choose between the two. Having to choose between the two makes moderates sound like extremists. hence the ridiculous position that Remainers often regard Brexiteers as extreme because they have had to choose between good outcomes. This pollutes the entire debate.
I think people have different views as to what is the General Principal of the SM. I can assume from your post it maybe FoM in your view but just to clarify is this correct?
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
But one of the foundations of the Single Movement is freedom of movement.
Due to the ease of access to our benefits system it's a lot easier to move to the UK for work then it is to move to Holland, France and Germany. This is one of the biggest reasons why we have so many people from Eastern Europe doing low pay work. And the fix was to solve it back in 2005 when people who understood the attractiveness of a no prior contributory benefit system saw the likely issue. Brown and Blair of course knew better and the Tories ignored the issue as it was too painful to look like the bad guys...
FoM was in the original Treaty of Rome 1957, long before the SM. So no, FoM is not one of the foundations of the single market, the single market is all about regulatory trust between the individual nations of the EU/EEA.
FoM is a foundation of the SM - it's the single market in labour. That it pre-dated the SM just means that it was a necessary but not sufficient part.
A colleague of mine was arrested in Jakarta yesterday. He was wearing an old T shirt which bore the flags of many countries from around the world. including, as it happened, the old soviet flag with the hammer and sickle.
Turns out it is illegal in Indonesia to display any symbols of communism. He was released with a warning 3 hours later and had no complaints at all about his treatment. But it serves as a warning for anyone travelling there to be aware of their local laws, however obscure.
Certainly Mr Palmer should be advised to leave his lucky hammer and sickle underwear at home, should he ever go there.
Comments
Having to kick Williamson out means a) admission that there is a problem and b) that she has failed in her duty to deal with it.
It's not anti-semitic so you won't get jumped on.
Or not....
https://twitter.com/DerbyChrisW/status/1100730392141840384
Indeed, but that was a different party. It's been infiltrated by extremists, and then gutted from the inside-out.
This ought to have been obvious when Nick Griffin endorsed Corbyn.
Is Twitter being hacked?
https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1100733312597921800
https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1100686451514183680
It's not enough to use whinging as a fire blanket
The rest of PMQs today has been a boring spectacle
People such as Michael Barnier draw the link:
"Thanks to the Single Market, both talent and knowledge move freely between our countries. This boosts the dynamism of our economies."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-18-3511_en.htm
https://twitter.com/Ed_Miliband/status/1100717799247360001
As usual he's left it too late
For example, I could decide to talk relentlessly all day every day about racism and Islamophobia on the right. And every time someone replies with a reference to antisemitism on the left I could wearily shake my head, say 'pathetic, that is just whataboutery', and then carry on undeflected.
Watson not going away quietly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=oYOZ3IzRaf4
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/musk-lays-into-sec-with-more-tweets-after-u-s-contempt-claim-1.1220112
He may not be CEO of Tesla for much longer.
he Is symbolic of the labour party as it now is and what happens to him next is significant...
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll
That doesn't mean that Individuals are inevitably archaic, misogynistic and homophobic in those organisations. The nessecary thing in liberal democracies is to be tolerant and respectful to beliefs, religious or secular, of others whether one is in agreement or disagreement with them, and to treat people equally.
https://twitter.com/Jim_Edwards/status/1100738686310858754
"FoM was not working in social and political terms but did not get properly addressed."
I don't know if you saw the BBC documentary on recent events in the EU, but there's an eye-opening scene where Merkel was discussing where to put the economic migrants coming to Europe. I didn't see countries concerned being consulted until later.
PS My sister lived in Algakirk a while back, but now she's moved to the outskirts of Sutterton. It's heavy Leaver country there.
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1100659208725385217?s=20
I know! Thought it was going to be just me.
When it comes to Islamophobia, as with so much else, I fear that Rod Liddle ("We need more of it!") has his finger on the pulse of the nation.
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1100741415926145024
"From the polling this morning the 'will of the people' is to extend Article 50 by 3 months then vote for May's Deal with some guarantee on the backstop added on.
The Deal also ensures access to the single market, albeit not membership of it and restricts free movement to reduce immigration so best respects the views of Remain and Leave voters as given by the 2016 Comres poll."
That sounds reasonable to this racist, xenophobic leaver. When will it be on offer?
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1100672354932256773
Personally I want to know when he's hosting meme review..
The silence on here about the Pope's recent comments wrt abuse is quite telling.
Far too many people are concerned with the identities of perpetrators, rather than the welfare of victims.
A colleague of mine was arrested in Jakarta yesterday. He was wearing an old T shirt which bore the flags of many countries from around the world. including, as it happened, the old soviet flag with the hammer and sickle.
Turns out it is illegal in Indonesia to display any symbols of communism. He was released with a warning 3 hours later and had no complaints at all about his treatment. But it serves as a warning for anyone travelling there to be aware of their local laws, however obscure.
"The prospect that Brexit will trigger new, longer and more complex talks brings focus groups to horrified silence"
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/andrew-cooper-voters-just-want-brexit-over-with-whether-they-like-it-or-not-it-won-t-be-a4072886.html
Here is Chris Williamson's previous apology from two months ago when he retweeted a petition in support of antisemite Gilad Atzmon. Atzmon lost a libel action with the Chairman of the Campaign Against Antisemitism when he claimed that antisemitic incidents had been "fabricated". That was in November, Williamson supported the petition in December. A thread worth reading.
https://twitter.com/DerbyChrisW/status/1076086748168499200
https://antisemitism.uk/antisemitic-author-and-saxophonist-gilad-atzmon-capitulates-making-humiliating-apology-and-paying-substantial-damages-and-costs-after-just-two-hours-in-court-against-caa/
Perhaps they should just suspend him for being a clueless goon who lives with his head in a bucket if they can't bring themselves to take suitably strong action against Jew-baiters.
If she plays this right, I can see the UK leaving on the 30th June with her Deal (unamended).
The way I see it:
12th March - she loses the Meaningful Vote again, by another heavy margin. Listening to Iain Duncan Smith frothing last night on PM, its clear the ERG are never going to support it.
13th March - Leaving with no deal is also heavily defeated.
14th March - By a narrow margin, Parliament votes to extend Article 50.
The EU agree such an extension and off May goes, back and forth throughout April and May and gets the sum total of naff all. Crucially, but importantly, we fail to hold EU Parliamentary elections.
Early/Mid June - another vote on her Deal. But this time it really is Deal or No Deal. We can't revoke and remain because we have no MEPs. We can't extend further for the same reason.
So suddenly, a huge number of remainer MPs are trapped. And therefore they abandon all pretence of 'supporting a second referendum' and the Deal goes through.
Has she played a blinder?
Of course, I also realise that this path is fraught with problems.
What if MPs *don't* vote to extend A50?
What if the EU don't?
What if, getting wind of this plan/idea, Remainers and ERG no dealers VONC their own government?
Or even the EU, still trying to get us to Remain, offer to let us hold emergency elections in (say) September if we only agree to Remain?
Or maybe MacMillans "Events dear boy, events" happen?
But I still feel that all religious groups exert an unwelcome and excessive amount of influence on our society and our institutions.
Has something changed in the geopolitical order?
Kick into long grass with an investigation, at the end of which he will be issued with a reminder about his behaviour. Formby's classic move.