The cynic in me says that the important question is not what the country overall would prefer, but what Conservative supporters and potentially shiftable marginal voters would prefer.
And May would find some way to rationalise this as being "the will of the country"
One thing that is paramount - if a course of action would be potentially disastrous for the Conservative Party itself, there is no way May will undertake it, even if it would prevent catastrophe or save lives.
Amazed at how many Corbynista scouse grandparents there are on Twitter slagging off and 'but Israel'-ing anyone who dares to criticise Williamson. Where do they all come from?
Amazed at how many Corbynista scouse grandparents there are on Twitter slagging off and 'but Israel'-ing anyone who dares to criticise Williamson. Where do they all come from?
with Palestinian flags and LFC emojs.
#JC4PM #GTTO
for balance, I have seen some claim to be Evertonians
I’d pay a fiver a month - if they’d let me. Can’t see anyone in the UK being too interested though.
Streaming market fragmentation, as is already happening in the US, is driving piracy rates higher again.
They aren't learning.....the reason Spotify has worked in terms of much reducing music piracy, is pretty much 99% of the music content (and increasingly podcasts) are located in one place, so for £5-10 a month you do nothing more than one click on a single app for all your audio entertainment.
Indeed. The audio streaming market works well because all the content is there, whether you subscribe to Spotify, Tidal, Apple Music, Android Music or Amazon Music.
The video streaming market (in the US) now has Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, HBO and soon Disney, all touting exclusive content. People aren’t going to go back to paying $60 a month for TV, that was the reason they cut the cable cord in the first place!
And now with much faster internet and an abundance of pirate apps that make new content available minutes after broadcast and pretty much ever show ever made, it is just moronic.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
All parties present the other side as a threat to something or other. But watching how the Corbynist left behave it feels like so many red flags. How dissent is dealt with, how the truth is whatever the speaker wants it to be and can be turned 180degrees without a blink or flicker, how the very worst bad behaviour can be justified and covered over if the person who does it shares the necessary values.
I agree entirely, writing as someone who has been on the receiving end of it, rather than just watching it.
All parties present the other side as a threat to something or other. But watching how the Corbynist left behave it feels like so many red flags. How dissent is dealt with, how the truth is whatever the speaker wants it to be and can be turned 180degrees without a blink or flicker, how the very worst bad behaviour can be justified and covered over if the person who does it shares the necessary values.
I’d pay a fiver a month - if they’d let me. Can’t see anyone in the UK being too interested though.
Streaming market fragmentation, as is already happening in the US, is driving piracy rates higher again.
They aren't learning.....the reason Spotify has worked in terms of much reducing music piracy, is pretty much 99% of the music content (and increasingly podcasts) are located in one place, so for £5-10 a month you do nothing more than one click on a single app for all your audio entertainment.
Indeed. The audio streaming market works well because all the content is there, whether you subscribe to Spotify, Tidal, Apple Music, Android Music or Amazon Music.
The video streaming market (in the US) now has Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, HBO and soon Disney, all touting exclusive content. People aren’t going to go back to paying $60 a month for TV, that was the reason they cut the cable cord in the first place!
I do Amazon & Netflix. I would be irritated if I had to do BBC also. That said, £15/month for the two ain't bad when you think about getting out videos for 24hrs from Blockbusters on Westbourne Grove.
I'm personally very concerned about the wingnut in chief's fate here......
More generally, yet again Chris Williamson was set to appear on TV as the face of the Corbynite Labour party - their 'bulldog' able to speak without the burden of being a front bencher...
That role will fall to who if he is suspended etc? Not more Owen Jones surely.....
They will claim that you have always had to pay for DVD box sets etc. But what it does is really highlight that the BBC funding model is broken for the modern age. It is unenforceable and is incompatible with the modern streaming world.
It'll be extra back-catalogue stuff you can't currently get - especially now that Ofcom has limited how much of that stuff it can put on iPlayer for free (to avoid distorting the paid-for market). The licence fee only pays for the current rights to screen most stuff, even with in-house productions. Any catalogue exploitation needs a *ruck* of agreements and payments to those involved.. so extra revenue s needed to cover that or current production suffers. I think more modern production contracts cover more of those rights, so it's easier with (eg) Luther than it is with Monty Python.
All of that said, I wouldn't mind betting it will be the basis of what replaces the licence fee (or at least a big part of it) at the end of the current charter. You're right that the model's crap, but to paraphrase Winston Churchill, it's currently less crap than the alternatives. I suspect it was a strategic error when the BBC rescued OnDigital to become Freeview that it took the card slot out of the boxes. Making the TV licence a plastic card would have cut evasion, at least on broadcast devices, at a stroke.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
@Topping, and “I will of course let them speak for themselves but Nick portrays Jezza as a nice, honest, homely kind of guy with nary a bad word for anyone. I would be interested in his take on this all.”
It must be terribly depressing for an ex-MP elected on the Blair surge (and leaving as the Blair tide finally left) to see the Labour Party he loyally supported becoming an adjunct of the SWP.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
That's not balance.
Your party has a problem. Your section of the party has a massive problem - and you are part of it. Stop giving yourself false reassurance by trying to say 'they're just as bad', and work out how you can fix your fellow travellers, many of whom appear to be virulently anti-Semitic.
In terms of AS in Labour vs Islamophobia in Cons: 2 things.
a) Labour is being dragged kicking and screaming by the media, some of the public, the Cons and Labour members to do something about AS in its party; the same is not true about Islamophobia within the Tory party
b) Whilst I'm sure other people can suggest otherwise, I cannot imagine a single policy being enacted by a labour led government that would target jewish people or people of jewish descent. I totally can imagine Tories enacting policy targeting muslim people or people from majority muslim communities (because they basically already do with many "anti terrorism" policies being well OTT and probably contributing more to alienation than helping).
Again, all the stats suggest what we have here is a perception issue. Members of the tory party and labour party seem to be roughly equally antisemitic, with some studies suggesting there are probably more tories who hold AS views. But the perception is Labour is much more AS than anyone else, because it is talked about so much (and MPs like Williamson or prominent members like Livingstone don't help)
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
He is wrong but your lot are worse is not going to cut through BJO
We are seeing the last days of Corbyn and his toxic cabal
I’d pay a fiver a month - if they’d let me. Can’t see anyone in the UK being too interested though.
Streaming market fragmentation, as is already happening in the US, is driving piracy rates higher again.
They aren't learning.....the reason Spotify has worked in terms of much reducing music piracy, is pretty much 99% of the music content (and increasingly podcasts) are located in one place, so for £5-10 a month you do nothing more than one click on a single app for all your audio entertainment.
Indeed. The audio streaming market works well because all the content is there, whether you subscribe to Spotify, Tidal, Apple Music, Android Music or Amazon Music.
The video streaming market (in the US) now has Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, HBO and soon Disney, all touting exclusive content. People aren’t going to go back to paying $60 a month for TV, that was the reason they cut the cable cord in the first place!
And now with much faster internet and an abundance of pirate apps that make new content available minutes after broadcast and pretty much ever show ever made, it is just moronic.
The issue was always one of discovery - emule and piratebay took off because it was the easiest way to find things.
Now Disney is probably big enough and specialist enough (Child focussed) that they can build a suitable moat and it will work for them but for everyone else the only reason people watch Amazon is because the have prime and few people miss it once they stop watching it. Heck when Sky Digital first arrived ITV wasn't on the list of channels and 20+ years later the chances of me watching anything on ITV is about zero.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
Frost isn't a tory, he resigned months ago. Shaun Bailey is someone different - perhaps you have misread a briefing note?
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
You mean the district councillor who was suspended from his party, and will be standing as an independent in May.
That is so clearly a fair comparison of Chris Williamson a high profile influential MP. To call it whataboutery is an insult to whatabouters everywhere.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
Your refusing to engage with certain posters is all over the shop, @bjo.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
That's not balance.
Your party has a problem. Your section of the party has a massive problem - and you are part of it. Stop giving yourself false reassurance by trying to say 'they're just as bad', and work out how you can fix your fellow travellers, many of whom appear to be virulently anti-Semitic.
That's the best thing you can do for your party.
Just for balance what are the Tories doing about their racism?
Boris Johnson wrote 'black people have lower IQs' - Still an MP
Bolton Conservative councillor Bob Allen posted a picture of a gorilla alongside a critical comment about an Asian Labour councillor on a blog. - Still a member
Orpington Tory Peter Hobbins, complained that none of the prospective parliamentary candidates “has a normal English name” – questioning “Why are the Candidates Department so keen on these foreign names?!!!!” Suspended but now back as a member
They will claim that you have always had to pay for DVD box sets etc. But what it does is really highlight that the BBC funding model is broken for the modern age. It is unenforceable and is incompatible with the modern streaming world.
It'll be extra back-catalogue stuff you can't currently get - especially now that Ofcom has limited how much of that stuff it can put on iPlayer for free (to avoid distorting the paid-for market). The licence fee only pays for the current rights to screen most stuff, even with in-house productions. Any catalogue exploitation needs a *ruck* of agreements and payments to those involved.. so extra revenue s needed to cover that or current production suffers. I think more modern production contracts cover more of those rights, so it's easier with (eg) Luther than it is with Monty Python.
All of that said, I wouldn't mind betting it will be the basis of what replaces the licence fee (or at least a big part of it) at the end of the current charter. You're right that the model's crap, but to paraphrase Winston Churchill, it's currently less crap than the alternatives. I suspect it was a strategic error when the BBC rescued OnDigital to become Freeview that it took the card slot out of the boxes. Making the TV licence a plastic card would have cut evasion, at least on broadcast devices, at a stroke.
At the time this was seen as an act of genius, in deliberately removing the card to prevent the license fee from becoming a subscription system.... all pre streaming of course..
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
Bailey think tank essay was in 2005
Frost jungle bunnies comment from 2011. At least that one was during the last decade.
@Topping, and “I will of course let them speak for themselves but Nick portrays Jezza as a nice, honest, homely kind of guy with nary a bad word for anyone. I would be interested in his take on this all.”
It must be terribly depressing for an ex-MP elected on the Blair surge (and leaving as the Blair tide finally left) to see the Labour Party he loyally supported becoming an adjunct of the SWP.
I will let NickP speak for himself about wider labour issue, but he has certainly posted favourable comments about Jezza here many times.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
That's not balance.
Your party has a problem. Your section of the party has a massive problem - and you are part of it. Stop giving yourself false reassurance by trying to say 'they're just as bad', and work out how you can fix your fellow travellers, many of whom appear to be virulently anti-Semitic.
That's the best thing you can do for your party.
Just for balance what are the Tories doing about their racism?
Boris Johnson wrote 'black people have lower IQs' - Still an MP
Bolton Conservative councillor Bob Allen posted a picture of a gorilla alongside a critical comment about an Asian Labour councillor on a blog. - Still a member
Orpington Tory Peter Hobbins, complained that none of the prospective parliamentary candidates “has a normal English name” – questioning “Why are the Candidates Department so keen on these foreign names?!!!!” Suspended but now back as a member
Looks like the tweets have gone out on how to play this latest antisemitism story.
Can I start by thanking all the respondents to my questions, some deliberately provocative. It's much clearer now. I used to answer questions on scientific matters from members of the public, and the first thing I learned is to answer the question they ask, not the one you think they should be asking.
Elsewhere, I learned to treat lawyers questions and answers with caution. they are often advocates, and they seek not so much to clarify as to promote, but generally the members of this website are reasonably reliable.
My conclusion (with my bias). The UK voted narrowly to Leave but what sort of Leave? Not the legal definition.
But the EU was being disingenuous when it asked "What do you want?" It meant "What is the bare minimum we can get away with offering commensurate with keeping the four freedoms intact?"
That question surely should have been asked only of the Leave voters alone despite Remain voters queueing up to give their views on what Leave actually means?
Had we asked the for single market membership, the freedom to negotiate our own trade deals, freedom to set out our own immigration needs, and no more payments to the EU, they would have called us totally unreasonable.
Reasonable negotiators would have exchanged red lines and begun discussion on them. There's no earthly reason why new trade relationships could not have been discussed in parallel. What red lines becomes the crucial issue for both sets of negotiators.
But this was politics from the off, with its heady mix of proving points and narrow party advantage. Mr's May, or whoever was chosen to lead for the UK, should never have been a Remainer, for the reason I've mentioned above. On the EU side, they would always choose someone with instructions to be negative and to slow things. They were well aware of the UK Parliament's reluctance to leave and it would be moronic of them not to play on it.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, the EU will play hardball. Their aim is to teach us a lesson and discourage others from leaving without harming themselves too much. Although we started with one foot shot off, we do have some advantages. We still retain some goodwill (not in France, though) and from my meagre knowledge of the EU systems I suspect a fudgey sort of compromise will eventually arrive.
All parties present the other side as a threat to something or other. But watching how the Corbynist left behave it feels like so many red flags. How dissent is dealt with, how the truth is whatever the speaker wants it to be and can be turned 180degrees without a blink or flicker, how the very worst bad behaviour can be justified and covered over if the person who does it shares the necessary values.
I think this is generally A Good Thing, but does anyone understand what she means by the "behind the scenes power" thing in the context of misogyny? I thought misogyny was usually seen by feminists as very much about keeping women "where they belong" rather than about anger or jealousy.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
That's not balance.
Your party has a problem. Your section of the party has a massive problem - and you are part of it. Stop giving yourself false reassurance by trying to say 'they're just as bad', and work out how you can fix your fellow travellers, many of whom appear to be virulently anti-Semitic.
That's the best thing you can do for your party.
Just for balance what are the Tories doing about their racism?
Boris Johnson wrote 'black people have lower IQs' - Still an MP
Bolton Conservative councillor Bob Allen posted a picture of a gorilla alongside a critical comment about an Asian Labour councillor on a blog. - Still a member
Orpington Tory Peter Hobbins, complained that none of the prospective parliamentary candidates “has a normal English name” – questioning “Why are the Candidates Department so keen on these foreign names?!!!!” Suspended but now back as a member
You are not going to win this one BJO .
You have been blinded by loyalto toxic Corbyn and his inner circle
In terms of AS in Labour vs Islamophobia in Cons: 2 things.
a) Labour is being dragged kicking and screaming by the media, some of the public, the Cons and Labour members to do something about AS in its party; the same is not true about Islamophobia within the Tory party
b) Whilst I'm sure other people can suggest otherwise, I cannot imagine a single policy being enacted by a labour led government that would target jewish people or people of jewish descent. I totally can imagine Tories enacting policy targeting muslim people or people from majority muslim communities (because they basically already do with many "anti terrorism" policies being well OTT and probably contributing more to alienation than helping).
Again, all the stats suggest what we have here is a perception issue. Members of the tory party and labour party seem to be roughly equally antisemitic, with some studies suggesting there are probably more tories who hold AS views. But the perception is Labour is much more AS than anyone else, because it is talked about so much (and MPs like Williamson or prominent members like Livingstone don't help)
A reasonably fair post. However, the anti-Semtiism within Labour is right at the very top, and not just one or two minor things: it is constant and virulent. Both parties are poisoned by hatred, but it goes far deeper into the head of the beast in Labour.
People will be dicks. It's hard to tell if someone will end up being a dick or not, and therefore what matters is how you react to the dickisness when it occurs. The problem is that Labour's leadership has reacted terribly to multiple, repeated events - so much so that it makes it appear that they actually condone them. They also give the impression (rightly or wrongly) that they will treat alleged offenders more leniently if they're part of their grouping. That's simply wrong.
Then there's another issue: the left expect this from the evil Conservatives. They don't expect it from their own side because they're on the side of everything that is good and righteous.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
Its such breaking news, the guy isn't even now a Tory councillor.
The majority of British Muslims (52%) according to polling think gay people should be locked up (compared to only 5% of the general population) and a further 30% did not have an opinion on the matter. Four in ten thought wives should always obey their husbands.
It does make one wonder what drives the atheist Chinese government, the Hindu nationalist government in India (vs Pakistan), the Burmese and to a less extent Thai Buddhist nations and the Israeli Jewish state to not look too favourably on their Muslim minorities or neighbouring states. Let alone how Christians including Yazidis in the middle east may feel too.
Given this seems to be a global issue what can we do to promote greater tolerance?
That question surely should have been asked only of the Leave voters alone despite Remain voters queueing up to give their views on what Leave actually means?
[snip]
There, I'm afraid, I completely disagree. Unless the Leave voters were completely united behind a single answer, you're going to lose the majority, without Remain voters agreeing.
Suppose Leavers split 52:48 on a key prioritisation? Not at all implausible; in fact, the chances of a majority of them behind a single line could be held as improbable. But let's assume we get a majority.
We then cite the "will of the people" as being that of 52% of 52%. Or, to put it another way, 27%.
It is, of course, possible that some of the Remainers might favour the course of action as being minimum harm; we shouldn't automatically assign them to the "against" axis - but if you deliberately do that at the start, it all-but-guarantees a minority decision.
We're all in this together, and whatever occurs must be done for everyone, not just an adversarial "we won; they lost" minority.
He's equating BTL landlords with jew haters? Bizarre and offensive.
Williamson is the BTL landlord I took it but you are right it's a vituperative tweet but twas ever thus with the ex PB poster who was v popular with the then red team I recall.
A much ignored aspect of the SM v FoM polling issue is that millions of moderates - centre, centre right and centre left - naturally think that the general principle of the single market is on balance an excellent thing, and that for a nation such as the UK to have the right to say who can live there permanently, while having a fairly open and generous view about it, is also an excellent thing. The absurdity of the issue is that both these positions are entirely moderate and in principle entirely compatible. It is a skewed political decision, done without wholehearted consent of the UK population, to force us to choose between the two. Having to choose between the two makes moderates sound like extremists. hence the ridiculous position that Remainers often regard Brexiteers as extreme because they have had to choose between good outcomes. This pollutes the entire debate.
A reasonably fair post. However, the anti-Semtiism within Labour is right at the very top, and not just one or two minor things: it is constant and virulent. Both parties are poisoned by hatred, but it goes far deeper into the head of the beast in Labour.
People will be dicks. It's hard to tell if someone will end up being a dick or not, and therefore what matters is how you react to the dickisness when it occurs. The problem is that Labour's leadership has reacted terribly to multiple, repeated events - so much so that it makes it appear that they actually condone them. They also give the impression (rightly or wrongly) that they will treat alleged offenders more leniently if they're part of their grouping. That's simply wrong.
Then there's another issue: the left expect this from the evil Conservatives. They don't expect it from their own side because they're on the side of everything that is good and righteous.
I mean there have been many reports that May is virulently anti-immigrant, what with her "Go Home" vans, Windrush scandal and general position on Brexit being about blocking immigration.
I think some of Labour's self reflexive inability to deal with stupid stuff people say is that the left of the party had been out in the wilderness until Corbyn. Now it is in charge. But it is deeply tribal about staying in charge; you can argue rightly or wrongly the membership voted twice for Corbyn and Corbynism, so those things stay (I myself consider a party that holds democratic elections to choose its leader to be a positive thing, and if the membership of that party choose lefties then the party should be reasonably lefty). Many of them see these attacks as just another attempt to slander the left and hold them to a higher standard than others.
It also rings hollow when people in this country and abroad on the right make George Soros into a sterotypical "Globalist", hell bent on destroying the west; when newspapers called the last Leader of the Oppositions' father everything but "a wandering jew" and make a big deal about the same LotO not being able to eat bacon properly.
In terms of AS in Labour vs Islamophobia in Cons: 2 things.
a) Labour is being dragged kicking and screaming by the media, some of the public, the Cons and Labour members to do something about AS in its party; the same is not true about Islamophobia within the Tory party
b) Whilst I'm sure other people can suggest otherwise, I cannot imagine a single policy being enacted by a labour led government that would target jewish people or people of jewish descent. I totally can imagine Tories enacting policy targeting muslim people or people from majority muslim communities (because they basically already do with many "anti terrorism" policies being well OTT and probably contributing more to alienation than helping).
Again, all the stats suggest what we have here is a perception issue. Members of the tory party and labour party seem to be roughly equally antisemitic, with some studies suggesting there are probably more tories who hold AS views. But the perception is Labour is much more AS than anyone else, because it is talked about so much (and MPs like Williamson or prominent members like Livingstone don't help)
Your post is spot on but even moderate Tories on here like BigG cant bring themselves to admit it.
So blinded are they by their hatred for JC
FU, Topping et al well perhaps they are OK with Tory Racism I have never heard them condemn it..
As a non-religious Jew brought up in a Christian society and as the child of Germans who escaped the Holocaust, let me give some Jewish perspective here on the fundamental difference between the Labour and Conservative Parties on anti-Semitism. Let’s start by noting that while anti-Semitism has always been present in both parties, until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, it was never prevalent in either. Indeed post-War, both parties have largely been very welcoming of Jews. The problem that we now have is that the change in leadership of the Labour Party has allowed the Hard Left, believers in the Jewish Conspiracy, incapable of distinguishing between Israel and Judaism, and breaching the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in regard to how they measure Israel in a way that they would never measure any other country, to take control of the levers of power. Whether Corbyn is an anti-Semite is debatable but it’s worth noting that he has been made aware of the problem in his Party and, according to Jonathan Goldstein in his meetings with Corbyn on the subject, he has been shocked at the complete lack of interest Corbyn has in the problem. Irrespective of his historical view that Jews control the global banking system, his unerring support for Hamas and Hizbollah, his conflation of Israel and Zionism, his insulting comments on Jews and so forth, the very least that he is guilty of is anti-Semitism by association but Corbyn’s total indifference can only validate that he is an anti-Semite. This has nothing to do with his politics. I don’t remember anyone criticising Michael Foot in this way, although the Soviet spy had many other failings that made him a danger to the country
I think this is generally A Good Thing, but does anyone understand what she means by the "behind the scenes power" thing in the context of misogyny? I thought misogyny was usually seen by feminists as very much about keeping women "where they belong" rather than about anger or jealousy.
Yes I think I understand.
The root of misogyny is often a feeling of inadequacy. A feeling that in this modern world of ours men are being emasculated and society is being feminized to such an extent that women now have the whip hand. And that despite this, despite all of their cossetting and privileges, rather than being grateful, as they ought to be, all the chicks ever do is complain and ask for more.
I would imagine (but obviously cannot prove) that there is a strong and positive correlation between harboring this sentiment and not being able to get it up.
Sex and death, after all, are the only 2 things that men truly think about.
A much ignored aspect of the SM v FoM polling issue is that millions of moderates - centre, centre right and centre left - naturally think that the general principle of the single market is on balance an excellent thing, and that for a nation such as the UK to have the right to say who can live there permanently, while having a fairly open and generous view about it, is also an excellent thing. The absurdity of the issue is that both these positions are entirely moderate and in principle entirely compatible. It is a skewed political decision, done without wholehearted consent of the UK population, to force us to choose between the two. Having to choose between the two makes moderates sound like extremists. hence the ridiculous position that Remainers often regard Brexiteers as extreme because they have had to choose between good outcomes. This pollutes the entire debate.
I think people have different views as to what is the General Principal of the SM. I can assume from your post it maybe FoM in your view but just to clarify is this correct?
The "Single Market" is a set of rules and regulations. Being a member allows a country to be involved in decisions about what those rules are. But every country on earth has access to the Single Market in the sense that they can sell into Europe so long as they meet the said rules. Of course in setting the rules members are in effect setting non-tariff barriers to trade so as to protect domestic production. That may be an advantage to EU producers, but often enough at the cost of consumers within the EU.
This is a typically fallacious Brexit argument. Our internal market will always have regulation. Extending the scope of our internal market to cover the whole EU means a net decrease in non-tariff barriers.
No. It's like trade creation and trade diversion in the case of tariffs. Expanding the scope of the Single Market to encompass more countries means that the non-tariff barriers facing non-members have become more extensive. Whether there's a net increase or decrease has to factor that in too.
Sorry but complete b***t that being part of the single market makes it harder for non members. There is a large cost to comply with a set of rules. The larger the market you can access the greater the return so the better it is for you.
Try selling to South Korea and you will see what I mean or even Canada for medical devices. Canada now requires you comply with MDSAP. We have decided to pass this year as just not worth it.
A reasonably fair post. However, the anti-Semtiism within Labour is right at the very top, and not just one or two minor things: it is constant and virulent. Both parties are poisoned by hatred, but it goes far deeper into the head of the beast in Labour.
People will be dicks. It's hard to tell if someone will end up being a dick or not, and therefore what matters is how you react to the dickisness when it occurs. The problem is that Labour's leadership has reacted terribly to multiple, repeated events - so much so that it makes it appear that they actually condone them. They also give the impression (rightly or wrongly) that they will treat alleged offenders more leniently if they're part of their grouping. That's simply wrong.
Then there's another issue: the left expect this from the evil Conservatives. They don't expect it from their own side because they're on the side of everything that is good and righteous.
I mean there have been many reports that May is virulently anti-immigrant, what with her "Go Home" vans, Windrush scandal and general position on Brexit being about blocking immigration.
Why has a "virulent anti-immigrant' presided over increased immigration, striven to fix the Windrish scandal which started under Labour and sought to protect EU & British citizens rights unilaterally, but which the EU refused?
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
Its such breaking news, the guy isn't even now a Tory councillor.
In terms of AS in Labour vs Islamophobia in Cons: 2 things.
a) Labour is being dragged kicking and screaming by the media, some of the public, the Cons and Labour members to do something about AS in its party; the same is not true about Islamophobia within the Tory party
b) Whilst I'm sure other people can suggest otherwise, I cannot imagine a single policy being enacted by a labour led government that would target jewish people or people of jewish descent. I totally can imagine Tories enacting policy targeting muslim people or people from majority muslim communities (because they basically already do with many "anti terrorism" policies being well OTT and probably contributing more to alienation than helping).
Again, all the stats suggest what we have here is a perception issue. Members of the tory party and labour party seem to be roughly equally antisemitic, with some studies suggesting there are probably more tories who hold AS views. But the perception is Labour is much more AS than anyone else, because it is talked about so much (and MPs like Williamson or prominent members like Livingstone don't help)
Your post is spot on but even moderate Tories on here like BigG cant bring themselves to admit it.
So blinded are they by their hatred for JC
FU, Topping et al well perhaps they are OK with Tory Racism I have never heard them condemn it..
Ultimate what-about-ery....As I am not a Tory, never been a member of any political party and openly criticise the Tories on here daily.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
Its such breaking news, the guy isn't even now a Tory councillor.
As a non-religious Jew brought up in a Christian society and as the child of Germans who escaped the Holocaust, let me give some Jewish perspective here on the fundamental difference between the Labour and Conservative Parties on anti-Semitism. Let’s start by noting that while anti-Semitism has always been present in both parties, until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, it was never prevalent in either. Indeed post-War, both parties have largely been very welcoming of Jews. The problem that we now have is that the change in leadership of the Labour Party has allowed the Hard Left, believers in the Jewish Conspiracy, incapable of distinguishing between Israel and Judaism, and breaching the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in regard to how they measure Israel in a way that they would never measure any other country, to take control of the levers of power. Whether Corbyn is an anti-Semite is debatable but it’s worth noting that he has been made aware of the problem in his Party and, according to Jonathan Goldstein in his meetings with Corbyn on the subject, he has been shocked at the complete lack of interest Corbyn has in the problem. Irrespective of his historical view that Jews control the global banking system, his unerring support for Hamas and Hizbollah, his conflation of Israel and Zionism, his insulting comments on Jews and so forth, the very least that he is guilty of is anti-Semitism by association but Corbyn’s total indifference can only validate that he is an anti-Semite. This has nothing to do with his politics. I don’t remember anyone criticising Michael Foot in this way, although the Soviet spy had many other failings that made him a danger to the country
Welcome, and thank you for your perspective. I think your point that Corbyn has overseen the move of antisemitism, and particularly conspiratorial antisemitism, to the mainstream is absolutely spot on. His apparent indifference to confronting it, and long-term association with active promoters, has been seen as a signalling its acceptability.
In a party long-associated with anti-racism and tolerance, indeed a party which has cherished and trumpeted these as core values, it is particularly corrosive and, well, very sad.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
Its such breaking news, the guy isn't even now a Tory councillor.
A reasonably fair post. However, the anti-Semtiism within Labour is right at the very top, and not just one or two minor things: it is constant and virulent. Both parties are poisoned by hatred, but it goes far deeper into the head of the beast in Labour.
People will be dicks. It's hard to tell if someone will end up being a dick or not, and therefore what matters is how you react to the dickisness when it occurs. The problem is that Labour's leadership has reacted terribly to multiple, repeated events - so much so that it makes it appear that they actually condone them. They also give the impression (rightly or wrongly) that they will treat alleged offenders more leniently if they're part of their grouping. That's simply wrong.
Then there's another issue: the left expect this from the evil Conservatives. They don't expect it from their own side because they're on the side of everything that is good and righteous.
I mean there have been many reports that May is virulently anti-immigrant, what with her "Go Home" vans, Windrush scandal and general position on Brexit being about blocking immigration.
Why has a "virulent anti-immigrant' presided over increased immigration, striven to fix the Windrish scandal which started under Labour and sought to protect EU & British citizens rights unilaterally, but which the EU refused?
Because it isn't always possible to legislate how you personally / politically believe, sometimes you cock things up so badly they blow up in your face, and because she's bad at her job?
In terms of AS in Labour vs Islamophobia in Cons: 2 things.
a) Labour is being dragged kicking and screaming by the media, some of the public, the Cons and Labour members to do something about AS in its party; the same is not true about Islamophobia within the Tory party
b) Whilst I'm sure other people can suggest otherwise, I cannot imagine a single policy being enacted by a labour led government that would target jewish people or people of jewish descent. I totally can imagine Tories enacting policy targeting muslim people or people from majority muslim communities (because they basically already do with many "anti terrorism" policies being well OTT and probably contributing more to alienation than helping).
Again, all the stats suggest what we have here is a perception issue. Members of the tory party and labour party seem to be roughly equally antisemitic, with some studies suggesting there are probably more tories who hold AS views. But the perception is Labour is much more AS than anyone else, because it is talked about so much (and MPs like Williamson or prominent members like Livingstone don't help)
Your post is spot on but even moderate Tories on here like BigG cant bring themselves to admit it.
So blinded are they by their hatred for JC
FU, Topping et al well perhaps they are OK with Tory Racism I have never heard them condemn it..
Ultimate what-about-ery....As I am not a Tory, never been a member of any political party and openly criticise the Tories on here daily.
So you agree/ disagree that the Tories and TM in particular are racist or not.
As a non-religious Jew brought up in a Christian society and as the child of Germans who escaped the Holocaust, let me give some Jewish perspective here on the fundamental difference between the Labour and Conservative Parties on anti-Semitism. Let’s start by noting that while anti-Semitism has always been present in both parties, until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, it was never prevalent in either. Indeed post-War, both parties have largely been very welcoming of Jews. The problem that we now have is that the change in leadership of the Labour Party has allowed the Hard Left, believers in the Jewish Conspiracy, incapable of distinguishing between Israel and Judaism, and breaching the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in regard to how they measure Israel in a way that they would never measure any other country, to take control of the levers of power. Whether Corbyn is an anti-Semite is debatable but it’s worth noting that he has been made aware of the problem in his Party and, according to Jonathan Goldstein in his meetings with Corbyn on the subject, he has been shocked at the complete lack of interest Corbyn has in the problem. Irrespective of his historical view that Jews control the global banking system, his unerring support for Hamas and Hizbollah, his conflation of Israel and Zionism, his insulting comments on Jews and so forth, the very least that he is guilty of is anti-Semitism by association but Corbyn’s total indifference can only validate that he is an anti-Semite. This has nothing to do with his politics. I don’t remember anyone criticising Michael Foot in this way, although the Soviet spy had many other failings that made him a danger to the country
MPs including Luciana Berger, Dame Margaret Hodge and Jess Philips were photographed walking with Ms Smeeth ahead of last year’s hearing into Mr Wadsworth’s conduct. Mr Williamson said: “It looked like a scene out of Mississippi Burning.
"It was disgraceful, absolutely despicable in my opinion.”
The "Single Market" is a set of rules and regulations. Being a member allows a country to be involved in decisions about what those rules are. But every country on earth has access to the Single Market in the sense that they can sell into Europe so long as they meet the said rules. Of course in setting the rules members are in effect setting non-tariff barriers to trade so as to protect domestic production. That may be an advantage to EU producers, but often enough at the cost of consumers within the EU.
This is a typically fallacious Brexit argument. Our internal market will always have regulation. Extending the scope of our internal market to cover the whole EU means a net decrease in non-tariff barriers.
No. It's like trade creation and trade diversion in the case of tariffs. Expanding the scope of the Single Market to encompass more countries means that the non-tariff barriers facing non-members have become more extensive. Whether there's a net increase or decrease has to factor that in too.
This is simply bad logic based on the idea that countries outside the single market don't have regulation. It's not analogous to trade diversion from preferential agreements.
In terms of AS in Labour vs Islamophobia in Cons: 2 things.
a) Labour is being dragged kicking and screaming by the media, some of the public, the Cons and Labour members to do something about AS in its party; the same is not true about Islamophobia within the Tory party
b) Whilst I'm sure other people can suggest otherwise, I cannot imagine a single policy being enacted by a labour led government that would target jewish people or people of jewish descent. I totally can imagine Tories enacting policy targeting muslim people or people from majority muslim communities (because they basically already do with many "anti terrorism" policies being well OTT and probably contributing more to alienation than helping).
Again, all the stats suggest what we have here is a perception issue. Members of the tory party and labour party seem to be roughly equally antisemitic, with some studies suggesting there are probably more tories who hold AS views. But the perception is Labour is much more AS than anyone else, because it is talked about so much (and MPs like Williamson or prominent members like Livingstone don't help)
Your post is spot on but even moderate Tories on here like BigG cant bring themselves to admit it.
So blinded are they by their hatred for JC
FU, Topping et al well perhaps they are OK with Tory Racism I have never heard them condemn it..
Ultimate what-about-ery....As I am not a Tory, never been a member of any political party and openly criticise the Tories on here daily.
So you agree/ disagree that the Tories and TM in particular are racist or not.
I must have missed the bit where you said.
You haven't read very carefully. I made this statement a few times, it is totally unsurprising that among the Tory membership there are bigots and Islamophobes. And probably a lot more "soft" racism, the sort of "your ok for a foreigner, but I was born in Bradford", type thinking that is prevalent among older people.
Is the management of the Tory party institutionally racist and homophobic etc in the way I think there were issues 30-40 years ago (especially on gay issues). No, I don't believe so.
In contrast, Labour didn't, they do have a major problem now and appear to be doing little about it. Temporary suspensions before being let back in a few months later.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
Its such breaking news, the guy isn't even now a Tory councillor.
Desperate stuff from BJO. You have to draw the conclusion that what he is saying is that it is defensible for Corbyn to be an anti-Semite because Theresa May has anti-immigration policies which is a completely implausible connection. I really don't rate TM, but suggesting that her position negates Mr Thicky's anti-Semitism is really quite ridiculous.
To also answer one of his other points, yes, there is racism in the Conservative Party. It is in my opinion, one of the reasons for support of Brexit. It is repulsive and should be condemned. Period.
Now please condemn Corbyn for the mural and his passivity on routing out left wing anti-Semites please.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
Its such breaking news, the guy isn't even now a Tory councillor.
In terms of AS in Labour vs Islamophobia in Cons: 2 things.
a) Labour is being dragged kicking and screaming by the media, some of the public, the Cons and Labour members to do something about AS in its party; the same is not true about Islamophobia within the Tory party
b) Whilst I'm sure other people can suggest otherwise, I cannot imagine a single policy being enacted by a labour led government that would target jewish people or people of jewish descent. I totally can imagine Tories enacting policy targeting muslim people or people from majority muslim communities (because they basically already do with many "anti terrorism" policies being well OTT and probably contributing more to alienation than helping).
Again, all the stats suggest what we have here is a perception issue. Members of the tory party and labour party seem to be roughly equally antisemitic, with some studies suggesting there are probably more tories who hold AS views. But the perception is Labour is much more AS than anyone else, because it is talked about so much (and MPs like Williamson or prominent members like Livingstone don't help)
Your post is spot on but even moderate Tories on here like BigG cant bring themselves to admit it.
So blinded are they by their hatred for JC
FU, Topping et al well perhaps they are OK with Tory Racism I have never heard them condemn it..
Ultimate what-about-ery....As I am not a Tory, never been a member of any political party and openly criticise the Tories on here daily.
So you agree/ disagree that the Tories and TM in particular are racist or not.
I must have missed the bit where you said.
There is no evidence of TMay being a racist that I a aware of. If there had, Labour would have been all over it like a rash. Now stop making yourself look silly
As a non-religious Jew brought up in a Christian society and as the child of Germans who escaped the Holocaust, let me give some Jewish perspective here on the fundamental difference between the Labour and Conservative Parties on anti-Semitism. Let’s start by noting that while anti-Semitism has always been present in both parties, until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, it was never prevalent in either. Indeed post-War, both parties have largely been very welcoming of Jews. The problem that we now have is that the change in leadership of the Labour Party has allowed the Hard Left, believers in the Jewish Conspiracy, incapable of distinguishing between Israel and Judaism, and breaching the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in regard to how they measure Israel in a way that they would never measure any other country, to take control of the levers of power. Whether Corbyn is an anti-Semite is debatable but it’s worth noting that he has been made aware of the problem in his Party and, according to Jonathan Goldstein in his meetings with Corbyn on the subject, he has been shocked at the complete lack of interest Corbyn has in the problem. Irrespective of his historical view that Jews control the global banking system, his unerring support for Hamas and Hizbollah, his conflation of Israel and Zionism, his insulting comments on Jews and so forth, the very least that he is guilty of is anti-Semitism by association but Corbyn’s total indifference can only validate that he is an anti-Semite. This has nothing to do with his politics. I don’t remember anyone criticising Michael Foot in this way, although the Soviet spy had many other failings that made him a danger to the country
Welcome, and thank you for your perspective. I think your point that Corbyn has overseen the move of antisemitism, and particularly conspiratorial antisemitism, to the mainstream is absolutely spot on. His apparent indifference to confronting it, and long-term association with active promoters, has been seen as a signalling its acceptability.
In a party long-associated with anti-racism and tolerance, indeed a party which has cherished and trumpeted these as core values, it is particularly corrosive and, well, very sad.
The other thing is that he has said, repeatedly, that he opposes anti-semitism, but he has failed completely to do anything to stop it. This meant that people like me initially gave him the benefit of the doubt on the issue, trusting him to prove his critics wrong.
He has had long enough now, and has failed. Either he was lying the whole time, or he is spectacularly incompetent, neither of which are a good look. I won't be taken for a fool again.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
Its such breaking news, the guy isn't even now a Tory councillor.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
Its such breaking news, the guy isn't even now a Tory councillor.
As a non-religious Jew brought up in a Christian society and as the child of Germans who escaped the Holocaust, let me give some Jewish perspective here on the fundamental difference between the Labour and Conservative Parties on anti-Semitism. Let’s start by noting that while anti-Semitism has always been present in both parties, until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, it was never prevalent in either. Indeed post-War, both parties have largely been very welcoming of Jews. The problem that we now have is that the change in leadership of the Labour Party has allowed the Hard Left, believers in the Jewish Conspiracy, incapable of distinguishing between Israel and Judaism, and breaching the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in regard to how they measure Israel in a way that they would never measure any other country, to take control of the levers of power. Whether Corbyn is an anti-Semite is debatable but it’s worth noting that he has been made aware of the problem in his Party and, according to Jonathan Goldstein in his meetings with Corbyn on the subject, he has been shocked at the complete lack of interest Corbyn has in the problem. Irrespective of his historical view that Jews control the global banking system, his unerring support for Hamas and Hizbollah, his conflation of Israel and Zionism, his insulting comments on Jews and so forth, the very least that he is guilty of is anti-Semitism by association but Corbyn’s total indifference can only validate that he is an anti-Semite. This has nothing to do with his politics. I don’t remember anyone criticising Michael Foot in this way, although the Soviet spy had many other failings that made him a danger to the country
Welcome, and thank you for your perspective. I think your point that Corbyn has overseen the move of antisemitism, and particularly conspiratorial antisemitism, to the mainstream is absolutely spot on. His apparent indifference to confronting it, and long-term association with active promoters, has been seen as a signalling its acceptability.
In a party long-associated with anti-racism and tolerance, indeed a party which has cherished and trumpeted these as core values, it is particularly corrosive and, well, very sad.
The other thing is that he has said, repeatedly, that he opposes anti-semitism, but he has failed completely to do anything to stop it. This meant that people like me initially gave him the benefit of the doubt on the issue, trusting him to prove his critics wrong.
He has had long enough now, and has failed. Either he was lying the whole time, or he is spectacularly incompetent, neither of which are a good look. I won't be taken for a fool again.
The reason for the inaction is either because he is actively anti-Semitic, or that he knows a large part or most of his core followers are. Or both.
A much ignored aspect of the SM v FoM polling issue is that millions of moderates - centre, centre right and centre left - naturally think that the general principle of the single market is on balance an excellent thing, and that for a nation such as the UK to have the right to say who can live there permanently, while having a fairly open and generous view about it, is also an excellent thing. The absurdity of the issue is that both these positions are entirely moderate and in principle entirely compatible. It is a skewed political decision, done without wholehearted consent of the UK population, to force us to choose between the two. Having to choose between the two makes moderates sound like extremists. hence the ridiculous position that Remainers often regard Brexiteers as extreme because they have had to choose between good outcomes. This pollutes the entire debate.
I think people have different views as to what is the General Principal of the SM. I can assume from your post it maybe FoM in your view but just to clarify is this correct?
The big thing to most people about the SM is frictionless trade. Making, buying and selling widgets however multi tasking and complex is the same system between Riga and Nantes as it is between Birmingham and Scunthorpe. But we take for granted, for example, that being a solicitor qualified to practice and appear in court in England does NOT qualify to do so in Latvia, or indeed even in Scotland and NI. So what we regard as a SM has limits. These limits with regard to lawyers are in general imposed by the constraints of the nation (Scotland) or state (UK). SM as practiced requires enormous regulatory alignment; to practice it with regard to lawyers would require having a single legal system - that is a single European nation state.
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
As a non-religious Jew brought up in a Christian society and as the child of Germans who escaped the Holocaust, let me give some Jewish perspective here on the fundamental difference between the Labour and Conservative Parties on anti-Semitism. Let’s start by noting that while anti-Semitism has always been present in both parties, until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, it was never prevalent in either. Indeed post-War, both parties have largely been very welcoming of Jews. The problem that we now have is that the change in leadership of the Labour Party has allowed the Hard Left, believers in the Jewish Conspiracy, incapable of distinguishing between Israel and Judaism, and breaching the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in regard to how they measure Israel in a way that they would never measure any other country, to take control of the levers of power. Whether Corbyn is an anti-Semite is debatable but it’s worth noting that he has been made aware of the problem in his Party and, according to Jonathan Goldstein in his meetings with Corbyn on the subject, he has been shocked at the complete lack of interest Corbyn has in the problem. Irrespective of his historical view that Jews control the global banking system, his unerring support for Hamas and Hizbollah, his conflation of Israel and Zionism, his insulting comments on Jews and so forth, the very least that he is guilty of is anti-Semitism by association but Corbyn’s total indifference can only validate that he is an anti-Semite. This has nothing to do with his politics. I don’t remember anyone criticising Michael Foot in this way, although the Soviet spy had many other failings that made him a danger to the country
Welcome.
Yes that seems to sum it up nicely.
Frankly, @bjo can go fuck himself. Obviously suffering from Stockholm Syndrome since the Jew-haters tried to kill him a while back.
In terms of AS in Labour vs Islamophobia in Cons: 2 things.
a) Labour is being dragged kicking and screaming by the media, some of the public, the Cons and Labour members to do something about AS in its party; the same is not true about Islamophobia within the Tory party
b) Whilst I'm sure other people can suggest otherwise, I cannot imagine a single policy being enacted by a labour led government that would target jewish people or people of jewish descent. I totally can imagine Tories enacting policy targeting muslim people or people from majority muslim communities (because they basically already do with many "anti terrorism" policies being well OTT and probably contributing more to alienation than helping).
Again, all the stats suggest what we have here is a perception issue. Members of the tory party and labour party seem to be roughly equally antisemitic, with some studies suggesting there are probably more tories who hold AS views. But the perception is Labour is much more AS than anyone else, because it is talked about so much (and MPs like Williamson or prominent members like Livingstone don't help)
Your post is spot on but even moderate Tories on here like BigG cant bring themselves to admit it.
So blinded are they by their hatred for JC
FU, Topping et al well perhaps they are OK with Tory Racism I have never heard them condemn it..
Ultimate what-about-ery....As I am not a Tory, never been a member of any political party and openly criticise the Tories on here daily.
So you agree/ disagree that the Tories and TM in particular are racist or not.
I must have missed the bit where you said.
You haven't read very carefully. I made this statement a few times, it is totally unsurprising that among the Tory membership there are bigots and Islamophobes. And probably a lot more "soft" racism, the sort of "your ok for a foreigner, but I was born in Bradford", type thinking that is prevalent among older people.
Is the management of the Tory party institutionally racist and homophobic etc in the way I think there were issues 30-40 years ago (especially on gay issues). No, I don't believe so.
In contrast, Labour didn't, they do have a major problem now and appear to be doing little about it. Temporary suspensions before being let back in a few months later.
Remember when David Cameron used parliamentary privilege to accuse a random Muslim of being an IS supporter to help out with Zac's Islamophobic mayoral campaign? The idea that Islamophobia isn't endorsed and exploited all the way to the top of the party is laughable.
In terms of AS in Labour vs Islamophobia in Cons: 2 things.
b) Whilst I'm sure other people can suggest otherwise, I cannot imagine a single policy being enacted by a labour led government that would target jewish people or people of jewish descent. I totally can imagine Tories enacting policy targeting muslim people or people from majority muslim communities (because they basically already do with many "anti terrorism" policies being well OTT and probably contributing more to alienation than helping).
A few thoughts on b):
- There are a lot of policies that some on the left would quite like to enact that would indirectly "target" Jews. For example, banning circumcision and ritual slaughter - easy to argue that they would be banned on basis of human and animal rights respectively, and extremely difficult to tell people's true intentions.
- There is precisely zero chance of either of the above being banned under a Labour government because they affect Muslims as well. Which seems obvious, but there is still some fear in the Jewish community that they would be pushed through anyway.
- One area that might be in danger is rules on faith schools, given that most majority Muslim schools aren't actually officially designated as such. It's possible that rules on admissions, curricula and donations to support additional religious instruction could be tightened, but in my view unlikely.
- The real issue is around fear. Previous governments (of all stripes) have been very good at saying the right things, condemning abuse, and concrete things like allocating funds for increased security provisions at Jewish schools/synagogues etc. It's very unclear that a Corbyn government would engage with the community in the same way. That leads to an escalation where suddenly things become normalised and a culture develops where abuse is more common and reaction isn't forthcoming. It ends with people feeling unsafe and like they don't belong. Something similar happened in Paris, and has resulted in large sections of that community that could afford to moving either to Israel or London (also possibly influenced by tax rises).
- In addition, the constant outpouring of vitriol against Israel has a huge impact; even if it's occasionally justifiable, it's alienating and feeds into a victim culture. There's clearly a lot of other countries with substantially worse human rights records, and the constant obsession with Israel is interpreted as a proxy attack.
- In conclusion, you're probably right that it would be difficult to point to specific policies enacted by a Corbyn government that actually made life in the UK harder for Jews. But I suggest that even in opposition he's already contributed to a poisoning of the usual political discourse that has already made many people feel uncomfortable here, and that would likely escalate significantly were he to gain power.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
Williamson is wrong
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
Its such breaking news, the guy isn't even now a Tory councillor.
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
Except it wouldn't have avoided anything. The hardline Eurosceptics don't care about free movement and had something like that been offered, they would have still campaigned just as virulently. Given that Brexit was in many ways a proxy vote against non-EU immigration, the concession wouldn't have had the desired effect anyway.
As a non-religious Jew brought up in a Christian society and as the child of Germans who escaped the Holocaust, let me give some Jewish perspective here on the fundamental difference between the Labour and Conservative Parties on anti-Semitism. Let’s start by noting that while anti-Semitism has always been present in both parties, until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, it was never prevalent in either. Indeed post-War, both parties have largely been very welcoming of Jews. The problem that we now have is that the change in leadership of the Labour Party has allowed the Hard Left, believers in the Jewish Conspiracy, incapable of distinguishing between Israel and Judaism, and breaching the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in regard to how they measure Israel in a way that they would never measure any other country, to take control of the levers of power. Whether Corbyn is an anti-Semite is debatable but it’s worth noting that he has been made aware of the problem in his Party and, according to Jonathan Goldstein in his meetings with Corbyn on the subject, he has been shocked at the complete lack of interest Corbyn has in the problem. Irrespective of his historical view that Jews control the global banking system, his unerring support for Hamas and Hizbollah, his conflation of Israel and Zionism, his insulting comments on Jews and so forth, the very least that he is guilty of is anti-Semitism by association but Corbyn’s total indifference can only validate that he is an anti-Semite. This has nothing to do with his politics. I don’t remember anyone criticising Michael Foot in this way, although the Soviet spy had many other failings that made him a danger to the country
Smearing a dead Labour leader does not instill confidence in your judgement on the current one.
A much ignored aspect of the SM v FoM polling issue is that millions of moderates - centre, centre right and centre left - naturally think that the general principle of the single market is on balance an excellent thing, and that for a nation such as the UK to have the right to say who can live there permanently, while having a fairly open and generous view about it, is also an excellent thing. The absurdity of the issue is that both these positions are entirely moderate and in principle entirely compatible. It is a skewed political decision, done without wholehearted consent of the UK population, to force us to choose between the two. Having to choose between the two makes moderates sound like extremists. hence the ridiculous position that Remainers often regard Brexiteers as extreme because they have had to choose between good outcomes. This pollutes the entire debate.
I think people have different views as to what is the General Principal of the SM. I can assume from your post it maybe FoM in your view but just to clarify is this correct?
The big thing to most people about the SM is frictionless trade. Making, buying and selling widgets however multi tasking and complex is the same system between Riga and Nantes as it is between Birmingham and Scunthorpe. But we take for granted, for example, that being a solicitor qualified to practice and appear in court in England does NOT qualify to do so in Latvia, or indeed even in Scotland and NI. So what we regard as a SM has limits. These limits with regard to lawyers are in general imposed by the constraints of the nation (Scotland) or state (UK). SM as practiced requires enormous regulatory alignment; to practice it with regard to lawyers would require having a single legal system - that is a single European nation state.
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
It could not be offered because FoM is one of the pillars of the EU and is seen by the other 27 as more important than UK membership. FoM is a very valuable aspect of the EU, it is just that tabloids and right wingers convinced people it was a bad thing when in reality it has helped bring considerable prosperity to Europe and the UK. It was our government that has been responsible for not mitigating the perceived downsides, and TMay and her predecessors in the Labour government are heavily responsible for where we are now.
@SayeedaWarsi Feb 25 More Sayeeda Warsi Retweeted Sayeeda Warsi Conservative voters in @hopenothate report - State of Hate @BrandonLewis - 42% believe Robinson highlights issues ignored by media - 47% falsely believe there are no-go areas where sharia law dominates & non-Muslims can't enter - 49% see Islam as a threat 2British way of life
Look, squirrel!
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
BJO with the breaking news from 27 Sep 2018. Anybody would think he is trying to distract from the issue of the day.
News from Monday 25th February 2019 Baroness Warsi asks why are the Tories so Racist and that it eminates from the PMs hatred of immigration
Its such breaking news, the guy isn't even now a Tory councillor.
Remember when David Cameron used parliamentary privilege to accuse a random Muslim of being an IS supporter to help out with Zac's Islamophobic mayoral campaign? The idea that Islamophobia isn't endorsed and exploited all the way to the top of the party is laughable.
By the way, I don't endorse BJO's whataboutery. But I do think that the next time we vote, we should be clear-eyed about the problems in all the parties we're being asked to choose between, not just one of them. And I think that anyone who treats antisemitism and Islamophobia differently (in either direction) should be asking themselves why.
A much ignored aspect of the SM v FoM polling issue is that millions of moderates - centre, centre right and centre left - naturally think that the general principle of the single market is on balance an excellent thing, and that for a nation such as the UK to have the right to say who can live there permanently, while having a fairly open and generous view about it, is also an excellent thing. The absurdity of the issue is that both these positions are entirely moderate and in principle entirely compatible. It is a skewed political decision, done without wholehearted consent of the UK population, to force us to choose between the two. Having to choose between the two makes moderates sound like extremists. hence the ridiculous position that Remainers often regard Brexiteers as extreme because they have had to choose between good outcomes. This pollutes the entire debate.
I think people have different views as to what is the General Principal of the SM. I can assume from your post it maybe FoM in your view but just to clarify is this correct?
The big thing to most people about the SM is frictionless trade. Making, buying and selling widgets however multi tasking and complex is the same system between Riga and Nantes as it is between Birmingham and Scunthorpe. But we take for granted, for example, that being a solicitor qualified to practice and appear in court in England does NOT qualify to do so in Latvia, or indeed even in Scotland and NI. So what we regard as a SM has limits. These limits with regard to lawyers are in general imposed by the constraints of the nation (Scotland) or state (UK). SM as practiced requires enormous regulatory alignment; to practice it with regard to lawyers would require having a single legal system - that is a single European nation state.
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
But one of the foundations of the Single Movement is freedom of movement.
Due to the ease of access to our benefits system it's a lot easier to move to the UK for work then it is to move to Holland, France and Germany. This is one of the biggest reasons why we have so many people from Eastern Europe doing low pay work. And the fix was to solve it back in 2005 when people who understood the attractiveness of a no prior contributory benefit system saw the likely issue. Brown and Blair of course knew better and the Tories ignored the issue as it was too painful to look like the bad guys...
Comments
And May would find some way to rationalise this as being "the will of the country"
One thing that is paramount - if a course of action would be potentially disastrous for the Conservative Party itself, there is no way May will undertake it, even if it would prevent catastrophe or save lives.
for balance, I have seen some claim to be Evertonians
(Damn, another day with not much work getting done!)
If you actually care to read my posts, you'll see where I have criticised the Conservative Party on such matters. UKIP has helped staunch the poison slightly, but they should act, (I've also called for the party to have an inquiry into Islampahobia).
Now, care to comment about Williamson's comments, or are you going to continue being a denier and excuser of anti-Semtism?
WITH A "WHAT ABOUT??!!"
Welcome bjo. I know you are forbidden on an oath of silence to reply to me, but I take that silence as agreement with everything I write.
Your welcome.
More generally, yet again Chris Williamson was set to appear on TV as the face of the Corbynite Labour party - their 'bulldog' able to speak without the burden of being a front bencher...
That role will fall to who if he is suspended etc? Not more Owen Jones surely.....
All of that said, I wouldn't mind betting it will be the basis of what replaces the licence fee (or at least a big part of it) at the end of the current charter. You're right that the model's crap, but to paraphrase Winston Churchill, it's currently less crap than the alternatives. I suspect it was a strategic error when the BBC rescued OnDigital to become Freeview that it took the card slot out of the boxes. Making the TV licence a plastic card would have cut evasion, at least on broadcast devices, at a stroke.
For balance meanwhile
Accommodating Muslims and Hindus “robs Britain of its community” and risks turning the country into a “crime-riddled cesspool” as a result, the Conservative candidate for London mayor declared in a thinktank pamphlet
A Tory Councillor who has made racist and offensive comments about Liverpool has previously described people of different ethnicities as 'jungle bunnies' and 'oil soaked sand peasants - Cllr Bob Frost, Conservative member for North Deal in Kent
Where's Corbyn?
It must be terribly depressing for an ex-MP elected on the Blair surge (and leaving as the Blair tide finally left) to see the Labour Party he loyally supported becoming an adjunct of the SWP.
https://twitter.com/GOsborneGenius/status/1100695137909436416
Your party has a problem. Your section of the party has a massive problem - and you are part of it. Stop giving yourself false reassurance by trying to say 'they're just as bad', and work out how you can fix your fellow travellers, many of whom appear to be virulently anti-Semitic.
That's the best thing you can do for your party.
a) Labour is being dragged kicking and screaming by the media, some of the public, the Cons and Labour members to do something about AS in its party; the same is not true about Islamophobia within the Tory party
b) Whilst I'm sure other people can suggest otherwise, I cannot imagine a single policy being enacted by a labour led government that would target jewish people or people of jewish descent. I totally can imagine Tories enacting policy targeting muslim people or people from majority muslim communities (because they basically already do with many "anti terrorism" policies being well OTT and probably contributing more to alienation than helping).
Again, all the stats suggest what we have here is a perception issue. Members of the tory party and labour party seem to be roughly equally antisemitic, with some studies suggesting there are probably more tories who hold AS views. But the perception is Labour is much more AS than anyone else, because it is talked about so much (and MPs like Williamson or prominent members like Livingstone don't help)
We are seeing the last days of Corbyn and his toxic cabal
Now Disney is probably big enough and specialist enough (Child focussed) that they can build a suitable moat and it will work for them but for everyone else the only reason people watch Amazon is because the have prime and few people miss it once they stop watching it. Heck when Sky Digital first arrived ITV wasn't on the list of channels and 20+ years later the chances of me watching anything on ITV is about zero.
That is so clearly a fair comparison of Chris Williamson a high profile influential MP. To call it whataboutery is an insult to whatabouters everywhere.
Boris Johnson wrote 'black people have lower IQs' - Still an MP
Bolton Conservative councillor Bob Allen posted a picture of a gorilla alongside a critical comment about an Asian Labour councillor on a blog. - Still a member
Orpington Tory Peter Hobbins, complained that none of the prospective parliamentary candidates “has a normal English name” – questioning “Why are the Candidates Department so keen on these foreign names?!!!!” Suspended but now back as a member
At the time this was seen as an act of genius, in deliberately removing the card to prevent the license fee from becoming a subscription system.... all pre streaming of course..
Frost jungle bunnies comment from 2011. At least that one was during the last decade.
Is this really the best you've got @bigjohnowls ?
Can I start by thanking all the respondents to my questions, some deliberately provocative. It's much clearer now. I used to answer questions on scientific matters from members of the public, and the first thing I learned is to answer the question they ask, not the one you think they should be asking.
Elsewhere, I learned to treat lawyers questions and answers with caution. they are often advocates, and they seek not so much to clarify as to promote, but generally the members of this website are reasonably reliable.
My conclusion (with my bias). The UK voted narrowly to Leave but what sort of Leave? Not the legal definition.
But the EU was being disingenuous when it asked "What do you want?" It meant "What is the bare minimum we can get away with offering commensurate with keeping the four freedoms intact?"
That question surely should have been asked only of the Leave voters alone despite Remain voters queueing up to give their views on what Leave actually means?
Had we asked the for single market membership, the freedom to negotiate our own trade deals, freedom to set out our own immigration needs, and no more payments to the EU, they would have called us totally unreasonable.
Reasonable negotiators would have exchanged red lines and begun discussion on them. There's no earthly reason why new trade relationships could not have been discussed in parallel. What red lines becomes the crucial issue for both sets of negotiators.
But this was politics from the off, with its heady mix of proving points and narrow party advantage. Mr's May, or whoever was chosen to lead for the UK, should never have been a Remainer, for the reason I've mentioned above. On the EU side, they would always choose someone with instructions to be negative and to slow things. They were well aware of the UK Parliament's reluctance to leave and it would be moronic of them not to play on it.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, the EU will play hardball. Their aim is to teach us a lesson and discourage others from leaving without harming themselves too much. Although we started with one foot shot off, we do have some advantages. We still retain some goodwill (not in France, though) and from my meagre knowledge of the EU systems I suspect a fudgey sort of compromise will eventually arrive.
But I might be totally wrong
You have been blinded by loyalto toxic Corbyn and his inner circle
People will be dicks. It's hard to tell if someone will end up being a dick or not, and therefore what matters is how you react to the dickisness when it occurs. The problem is that Labour's leadership has reacted terribly to multiple, repeated events - so much so that it makes it appear that they actually condone them. They also give the impression (rightly or wrongly) that they will treat alleged offenders more leniently if they're part of their grouping. That's simply wrong.
Then there's another issue: the left expect this from the evil Conservatives. They don't expect it from their own side because they're on the side of everything that is good and righteous.
Party: Not a member of a Political Group
https://moderngov.dover.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=147
The majority of British Muslims (52%) according to polling think gay people should be locked up (compared to only 5% of the general population) and a further 30% did not have an opinion on the matter. Four in ten thought wives should always obey their husbands.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law
It does make one wonder what drives the atheist Chinese government, the Hindu nationalist government in India (vs Pakistan), the Burmese and to a less extent Thai Buddhist nations and the Israeli Jewish state to not look too favourably on their Muslim minorities or neighbouring states. Let alone how Christians including Yazidis in the middle east may feel too.
Given this seems to be a global issue what can we do to promote greater tolerance?
Suppose Leavers split 52:48 on a key prioritisation? Not at all implausible; in fact, the chances of a majority of them behind a single line could be held as improbable. But let's assume we get a majority.
We then cite the "will of the people" as being that of 52% of 52%.
Or, to put it another way, 27%.
It is, of course, possible that some of the Remainers might favour the course of action as being minimum harm; we shouldn't automatically assign them to the "against" axis - but if you deliberately do that at the start, it all-but-guarantees a minority decision.
We're all in this together, and whatever occurs must be done for everyone, not just an adversarial "we won; they lost" minority.
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/derby-news/derby-mp-chris-williamson-admits-1068348
I think some of Labour's self reflexive inability to deal with stupid stuff people say is that the left of the party had been out in the wilderness until Corbyn. Now it is in charge. But it is deeply tribal about staying in charge; you can argue rightly or wrongly the membership voted twice for Corbyn and Corbynism, so those things stay (I myself consider a party that holds democratic elections to choose its leader to be a positive thing, and if the membership of that party choose lefties then the party should be reasonably lefty). Many of them see these attacks as just another attempt to slander the left and hold them to a higher standard than others.
It also rings hollow when people in this country and abroad on the right make George Soros into a sterotypical "Globalist", hell bent on destroying the west; when newspapers called the last Leader of the Oppositions' father everything but "a wandering jew" and make a big deal about the same LotO not being able to eat bacon properly.
So blinded are they by their hatred for JC
FU, Topping et al well perhaps they are OK with Tory Racism I have never heard them condemn it..
The root of misogyny is often a feeling of inadequacy. A feeling that in this modern world of ours men are being emasculated and society is being feminized to such an extent that women now have the whip hand. And that despite this, despite all of their cossetting and privileges, rather than being grateful, as they ought to be, all the chicks ever do is complain and ask for more.
I would imagine (but obviously cannot prove) that there is a strong and positive correlation between harboring this sentiment and not being able to get it up.
Sex and death, after all, are the only 2 things that men truly think about.
Or perhaps that is just me.
Try selling to South Korea and you will see what I mean or even Canada for medical devices. Canada now requires you comply with MDSAP. We have decided to pass this year as just not worth it.
I agree with Warsi that TM is a racist dont you?
In a party long-associated with anti-racism and tolerance, indeed a party which has cherished and trumpeted these as core values, it is particularly corrosive and, well, very sad.
I mean, it has been no secret that May has always been to the right of the party on the issue of immigration: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-immigration-policies-speech-conference-2015-tory-conservative-party-views-a7209931.html
As for Labour, yeah, under Blair and Brown they were immigrant hating too. That is bad. I am not a Labour supporter.
I must have missed the bit where you said.
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/chris-williamson-said-those-who-supported-jewish-mp-were-white-privileged-1.480704
In a recording which has been obtained by the JC, the Derby North MP repeatedly attempted to portray the hearing into the black activist Marc Wadsworth, who was expelled by Labour for bringing the party into disrepute, as an example of “white people trying to shout down a black guy.”
MPs including Luciana Berger, Dame Margaret Hodge and Jess Philips were photographed walking with Ms Smeeth ahead of last year’s hearing into Mr Wadsworth’s conduct. Mr Williamson said: “It looked like a scene out of Mississippi Burning.
"It was disgraceful, absolutely despicable in my opinion.”
Is the management of the Tory party institutionally racist and homophobic etc in the way I think there were issues 30-40 years ago (especially on gay issues). No, I don't believe so.
In contrast, Labour didn't, they do have a major problem now and appear to be doing little about it. Temporary suspensions before being let back in a few months later.
To also answer one of his other points, yes, there is racism in the Conservative Party. It is in my opinion, one of the reasons for support of Brexit. It is repulsive and should be condemned. Period.
Now please condemn Corbyn for the mural and his passivity on routing out left wing anti-Semites please.
He has had long enough now, and has failed. Either he was lying the whole time, or he is spectacularly incompetent, neither of which are a good look. I won't be taken for a fool again.
https://twitter.com/MichaelLCrick/status/1100725463939514368
Many people in the UK think that who lives there is a UK matter not an EU matter - it's on the wrong side of the line. It is perfectly sensible to want a SM and also national sovereignty over FoM. Exactly what should have been offered to Mr Cameron all those years ago to avoid the nonsense going on now.
Yes that seems to sum it up nicely.
Frankly, @bjo can go fuck himself. Obviously suffering from Stockholm Syndrome since the Jew-haters tried to kill him a while back.
Monument to the Polish pilots who flew in the BoB = damn straight.
Making “europhobia” a hate crime = get stuffed.
- There are a lot of policies that some on the left would quite like to enact that would indirectly "target" Jews. For example, banning circumcision and ritual slaughter - easy to argue that they would be banned on basis of human and animal rights respectively, and extremely difficult to tell people's true intentions.
- There is precisely zero chance of either of the above being banned under a Labour government because they affect Muslims as well. Which seems obvious, but there is still some fear in the Jewish community that they would be pushed through anyway.
- One area that might be in danger is rules on faith schools, given that most majority Muslim schools aren't actually officially designated as such. It's possible that rules on admissions, curricula and donations to support additional religious instruction could be tightened, but in my view unlikely.
- The real issue is around fear. Previous governments (of all stripes) have been very good at saying the right things, condemning abuse, and concrete things like allocating funds for increased security provisions at Jewish schools/synagogues etc. It's very unclear that a Corbyn government would engage with the community in the same way. That leads to an escalation where suddenly things become normalised and a culture develops where abuse is more common and reaction isn't forthcoming. It ends with people feeling unsafe and like they don't belong. Something similar happened in Paris, and has resulted in large sections of that community that could afford to moving either to Israel or London (also possibly influenced by tax rises).
- In addition, the constant outpouring of vitriol against Israel has a huge impact; even if it's occasionally justifiable, it's alienating and feeds into a victim culture. There's clearly a lot of other countries with substantially worse human rights records, and the constant obsession with Israel is interpreted as a proxy attack.
- In conclusion, you're probably right that it would be difficult to point to specific policies enacted by a Corbyn government that actually made life in the UK harder for Jews. But I suggest that even in opposition he's already contributed to a poisoning of the usual political discourse that has already made many people feel uncomfortable here, and that would likely escalate significantly were he to gain power.
When she was in the Government she used to try and build bridges between Muslims and Conservative values, and defended the Party.
http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk/aircraft/planes/dales/hz251.html
Not much you can do when your wing falls off...
That's it.
That's all that will be done. Tom Watson etc need to actually show some bottle now, or this will never end.
Due to the ease of access to our benefits system it's a lot easier to move to the UK for work then it is to move to Holland, France and Germany. This is one of the biggest reasons why we have so many people from Eastern Europe doing low pay work. And the fix was to solve it back in 2005 when people who understood the attractiveness of a no prior contributory benefit system saw the likely issue. Brown and Blair of course knew better and the Tories ignored the issue as it was too painful to look like the bad guys...