Their description of the ERG is correct. However, their voting records show that they are not prepared to tolerate any form of Brexit, despite their manifesto commitments.
Did they not vote to trigger Article 50? I don't recall.
Their description of the ERG is correct. However, their voting records show that they are not prepared to tolerate any form of Brexit, despite their manifesto commitments.
The Home Secretary also needs to be convinced they have acted in a manner "seriously prejudicial" to the interests of the UK.
And if someone like Corbyn were appointing the Home Secretary?
The law still applies and any decision is still reviewable by the courts. ...
I really think it would be better if the law prescribed specific conditions for depriving people of citizenship, rather than a vague one like "conducive to the public good". That's the case in the USA, incidentally.
We are a Common Law nation. No reason the courts can't apply common sense.
Even if it did it wouldn't change the outcome in this case. Pretty sure treason and joining a proscribed terrorist group would be on the specific conditions list.
You're surely not being serious about "common law" meaning the courts reach decisions based on "common sense" rather than law, are you? I never know when people are posting silly stuff just for amusement here.
Fortunately whether people have committed treason isn't decided by online comments (at least not yet). I hope this case will be properly examined at appeal, and it will be interesting to see the conclusion.
Actually to some extent he is correct. We do still have the situation where a jury can decide not to follow the law if it feels it is wrong. The judge is supposed to neutrally advise on the letter of the law but the jury does not have to follow his guidance if they choose not to.
Given they are finders of fact only, I don't see how they could.
Jeremy Hunt has seized on Labour’s split, claiming to European foreign ministers it proved that only concessions to win round Conservative rightwingers will get the Brexit deal through the Commons.
No its entirely correct still. Wollaston etc were opposed to any Brexit deal. Despite being elected on that pledge.
As I predicted a very gracious letter from TM to the three defectors and as Sky has just said, so much in contrast to Corbyn's attitude to his defectors
Regarding Shamima Begum I was just about OK with it as I thought she had Bangladesh Citizenship, as she only has the possibility of the right to Bangladesh citizenship I'm rather more dubious now.
She is not having her citizenship revoked because she has a Bangladeshi passport though. It is because she joined a terrorist organisation completely at odds to our entire way of life.
It's like saying you can't put someone in jail for murder because then they could also put you in jail for being Jewish.
Define "completely at odds to our entire way of life" is the problem.
And don't give Jeremy ideas wrt putting Jewish people in jail.
And welcome!
Is it really controversial to have a situation whereby if you join a proscribed terrorist organisation abroad, we have the right to forbid your re-entry to the UK if possible?
The original counter was it would render her stateless, if there is now a way of getting around that, what’s the problem?
Well indeed.
And people are speaking about this as if Javid is creating a new law that could be exploited in the future. He's not he is using exist laws that were created by his predecessors.
If you don't like the law maybe campaign to get the law changed. But I don't think Javid is doing anything wrong implementing the existing law how he has.
Quite true. But this case has highlighted the difficulties with the current law - which effectively gives the Home Secretary the power of exile in a particular set of cases. And for a particular class of UK born citizens.
All Jews have an entitlement to Israeli citizenship - it's not a stretch to see how this could be used against them:
For all that, @Philip_Thompson is right, Javid is acting reasonably and doing the right thing by this country under the law as it stands. It's not exactly fair on Bangladesh, though, is it? A change to the law should be considered.
It is because of the existence of people like Corbyn and those he associates with that Jews need that backstop. They have learnt through bitter experience that even the most civilised countries can turn on them. That some Jews feel that this is a possibility in Britain is a matter of great sadness and deep shame.
Who cares? The entire mayoralty is a complete nonsense, geographically. It does NOT include Gateshead, which is effectively part of Newcastle despite some old-school parochial voices claiming otherwise.
It's a classic example of what happens when you leave devolution at the mercy of parochial sentiment. The unit should have been Greater Newcastle, both sides of the Tyne, which would have commanded a population of around one million.
Stupid.
Gateshead is not part of Newcastle. It is part of County Durham. A Mayor covering the area between Tyne and Tees would be my choice. Well, either a mayor or a Prince Bishop.
It has not been part of County Durham for more than four decades. Almost no-one under the age of 60 considers it so. Is Brixton part of Surrey?
They should have built City Hall on the southbank in Gateshead and had a proper stab at an outward-looking Metro Mayoralty, a la Greater Manchester and Greater London. Instead, they chose parochialism and inward-looking stupidity.
As I predicted a very gracious letter from TM to the three defectors and as Sky has just said, so much in contrast to Corbyn's attitude to his defectors
May knows she might need to dump the DUP and do a deal with the Tiggers.
Wollaston's letter to her constituents makes it clear she'll be part of TIG:
"I will be sitting alongside them in a new centre grouping of independent MPs who share a common set of values, The Independent Group. We agree with the millions of people who feel that neither main political party represents them and that there needs to be a new offer at the heart of our politics.
"I know that being an MP is an enormous privilege and I remain hugely grateful to everyone who has supported me. I know some will now call for me to stand in a by election but neither this nor a general election would answer the fundamental question that is dividing us... for that we need a referendum on the final Brexit deal.
"I will be listening carefully to views about The Independent Group and how this could develop in the future. I remain absolutely committed to this constituency."
As I predicted a very gracious letter from TM to the three defectors and as Sky has just said, so much in contrast to Corbyn's attitude to his defectors
May knows she might need to dump the DUP and do a deal with the Tiggers.
The Home Secretary also needs to be convinced they have acted in a manner "seriously prejudicial" to the interests of the UK.
And if someone like Corbyn were appointing the Home Secretary?
The law still applies and any decision is still reviewable by the courts. ...
I really think it would be better if the law prescribed specific conditions for depriving people of citizenship, rather than a vague one like "conducive to the public good". That's the case in the USA, incidentally.
We are a Common Law nation. No reason the courts can't apply common sense.
Even if it did it wouldn't change the outcome in this case. Pretty sure treason and joining a proscribed terrorist group would be on the specific conditions list.
You're surely not being serious about "common law" meaning the courts reach decisions based on "common sense" rather than law, are you? I never know when people are posting silly stuff just for amusement here.
Fortunately whether people have committed treason isn't decided by online comments (at least not yet). I hope this case will be properly examined at appeal, and it will be interesting to see the conclusion.
Actually to some extent he is correct. We do still have the situation where a jury can decide not to follow the law if it feels it is wrong. The judge is supposed to neutrally advise on the letter of the law but the jury does not have to follow his guidance if they choose not to.
"Common law" just means law that applies to everyone, rather than a particular group. It has no reference whatsoever to "common sense".
Who cares? The entire mayoralty is a complete nonsense, geographically. It does NOT include Gateshead, which is effectively part of Newcastle despite some old-school parochial voices claiming otherwise.
It's a classic example of what happens when you leave devolution at the mercy of parochial sentiment. The unit should have been Greater Newcastle, both sides of the Tyne, which would have commanded a population of around one million.
Stupid.
Gateshead is not part of Newcastle. It is part of County Durham. A Mayor covering the area between Tyne and Tees would be my choice. Well, either a mayor or a Prince Bishop.
I mean it isn’t part of County Durham. Hasn’t been for a long time.
Indeed. It was last part of County Durham on 31 March, 1974. Almost no-one of working age considers it so. Presumably Sandy also considers Walthamstow part of Essex, Willesden part of Middlesex, Brixton part of Surrey and Greenwich part of Kent?
It looks likely to me that there will be more defections on both sides.
Note there have already been more Conservative MP defections to the centre than took place to the SDP.
Historically Tory defections to Labour seem to have been much more common than Tories defections to the centre (SDP / LDs). Something I have always wondered about.
I'd say it's still 50/50 whether this remains a temporary parliamentary thing or morphs into a new party or movement. A lot will depend on the public and polling response and whether they get backers, members and councillors.
The local elections are a massive opportunity for the Lib Dems. They already were, but now even more so. There's not much chance of TIG having a party machinery in place to contest them given the thousands of councillors up for election, so you'd expect an endorsement of the Lib Dems from TIG.
Their description of the ERG is correct. However, their voting records show that they are not prepared to tolerate any form of Brexit, despite their manifesto commitments.
I was thinking you meant the ERG with that last, for a moment there!
Of the three, I think the loss of Anna Soubry is the most regrettable. She's a true Conservative.
Seconded. Though I don't want to see anyone leave, I found Allen's maiden speech very misjudged ("I picked the blue team") and I have had a huge amount of scepticism about Wollaston's integrity ever since her switch in the referendum (the implication being that she cynically pitched as Leave to win the seat in the first place). But Anna is a real loss.
The parallel is that very many Tory associations have been taken over by Brexit loons just as surely as the Corbynista grip on local Labour
That's true to an extent. However, important as an issue as Brexit is, it is not the only one and will still pass. It is not defining the party in existential terms other than for a few members. Labour's splits run deeper.
You must mix in different circles. I know lots of them for whom Brexit is an obsession. cf. ConHome
Edit/ and, to the point, the only test by which they judge fellow tories
Oh, some, sure. But there's not been a UKIP takeover in the same way that there's been a Corbynite takeover. And Brexit as an issue will still pass, sooner or later.
I'd say it's still 50/50 whether this remains a temporary parliamentary thing or morphs into a new party or movement. A lot will depend on the public and polling response and whether they get backers, members and councillors.
The local elections are a massive opportunity for the Lib Dems. They already were, but now even more so. There's not much chance of TIG having a party machinery in place to contest them given the thousands of councillors up for election, so you'd expect an endorsement of the Lib Dems from TIG.
It depends partly on whether, like the SDP, they pull across a fair chunk of councillors. Sitting councillors may choose to defend their seats under the new banner.
It looks likely to me that there will be more defections on both sides.
Note there have already been more Conservative MP defections to the centre than took place to the SDP.
Historically Tory defections to Labour seem to have been much more common than Tories defections to the centre (SDP / LDs). Something I have always wondered about.
BBC reporting the defection of a Labour councillor to the Tories in Brighton, which could change control of the council.
Of the three, I think the loss of Anna Soubry is the most regrettable. She's a true Conservative.
Seconded. Though I don't want to see anyone leave, I found Allen's maiden speech very misjudged ("I picked the blue team") and I have had a huge amount of scepticism about Wollaston's integrity ever since her switch in the referendum (the implication being that she cynically pitched as Leave to win the seat in the first place). But Anna is a real loss.
Presumably Ken couldn't talk her out of it.
Seems she has been pushed too far by lack of progress on No Deal ruling out.
Morgan proved at Education she's an unabashed cronyist, promoting her mates ahead of people of talent and experience. If she is describing Soubry as a friend, I agree that's a sign she's at least thinking of switching.
But bluntly, I can't see why the Tiggers would want her.
The parallel is that very many Tory associations have been taken over by Brexit loons just as surely as the Corbynista grip on local Labour
That's true to an extent. However, important as an issue as Brexit is, it is not the only one and will still pass. It is not defining the party in existential terms other than for a few members. Labour's splits run deeper.
You must mix in different circles. I know lots of them for whom Brexit is an obsession. cf. ConHome
Edit/ and, to the point, the only test by which they judge fellow tories
Oh, some, sure. But there's not been a UKIP takeover in the same way that there's been a Corbynite takeover. And Brexit as an issue will still pass, sooner or later.
The UKIP takeover is gathering speed and the leadership appear to be doing nothing about it.
Brext as an issue will pass but in the future we are now going to be in the EUs sphere of influence and so there will be all sorts of questions about how far we align with them, which a large number of the head bangers in the Tory party will see as capitulation. The same split will rumble on.
May & Corbyn would be well served in letting TIG flush out the uncommitted from both parties before dropping the GE hammer on them before they get themselves administratively sorted.
Who cares? The entire mayoralty is a complete nonsense, geographically. It does NOT include Gateshead, which is effectively part of Newcastle despite some old-school parochial voices claiming otherwise.
It's a classic example of what happens when you leave devolution at the mercy of parochial sentiment. The unit should have been Greater Newcastle, both sides of the Tyne, which would have commanded a population of around one million.
Stupid.
Gateshead is not part of Newcastle. It is part of County Durham. A Mayor covering the area between Tyne and Tees would be my choice. Well, either a mayor or a Prince Bishop.
I mean it isn’t part of County Durham. Hasn’t been for a long time.
Indeed. It was last part of County Durham on 31 March, 1974. Almost no-one of working age considers it so. Presumably Sandy also considers Walthamstow part of Essex, Willesden part of Middlesex, Brixton part of Surrey and Greenwich part of Kent?
I don't have a viewabout those places down south, but I imagine lots of locals do. However I do know that I was born in Gateshead, County Durham. I support Durham CCC. I'm from County Durham.
Try telling folk in Barnoldswick that they are in Lancashire rather than Yorkshire. They have a bloody big Yorkshire flag flying in the middle of the town!
I think that sums up the feelings of most Conservatives.
I meant the implication that true Conservatives are selected in Party stitch-ups!
It's another mess left behind from the Cameron era. A broad church is one thing but evidently he was keen to permanently shift the party to the left and Wollaston and Allen were the turds that couldn't be flushed long after he'd walked away.
Who cares? The entire mayoralty is a complete nonsense, geographically. It does NOT include Gateshead, which is effectively part of Newcastle despite some old-school parochial voices claiming otherwise.
It's a classic example of what happens when you leave devolution at the mercy of parochial sentiment. The unit should have been Greater Newcastle, both sides of the Tyne, which would have commanded a population of around one million.
Stupid.
Gateshead is not part of Newcastle. It is part of County Durham. A Mayor covering the area between Tyne and Tees would be my choice. Well, either a mayor or a Prince Bishop.
I mean it isn’t part of County Durham. Hasn’t been for a long time.
Indeed. It was last part of County Durham on 31 March, 1974. Almost no-one of working age considers it so. Presumably Sandy also considers Walthamstow part of Essex, Willesden part of Middlesex, Brixton part of Surrey and Greenwich part of Kent?
I don't have a viewabout those places down south, but I imagine lots of locals do. However I do know that I was born in Gateshead, County Durham. I support Durham CCC. I'm from County Durham.
Try telling folk in Barnoldswick that they are in Lancashire rather than Yorkshire. They have a bloody big Yorkshire flag flying in the middle of the town!
I know that the county identities still hold strong to some however there is no denying that Newcastle and Gateshead are one city and to try and deny that is detrimental to both.
How are the numbers now for a confidence vote ? True minority c&s now ?
I just looked at Wikipedia and no. 311 officially Con, 10 DUP = 321. All opposition (including Tiggers) only makes 317. Unless Sinn Fein rock up, then NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
May & Corbyn would be well served in letting TIG flush out the uncommitted from both parties before dropping the GE hammer on them before they get themselves administratively sorted.
Who cares? The entire mayoralty is a complete nonsense, geographically. It does NOT include Gateshead, which is effectively part of Newcastle despite some old-school parochial voices claiming otherwise.
It's a classic example of what happens when you leave devolution at the mercy of parochial sentiment. The unit should have been Greater Newcastle, both sides of the Tyne, which would have commanded a population of around one million.
Stupid.
Gateshead is not part of Newcastle. It is part of County Durham. A Mayor covering the area between Tyne and Tees would be my choice. Well, either a mayor or a Prince Bishop.
It has not been part of County Durham for more than four decades. Almost no-one under the age of 60 considers it so. Is Brixton part of Surrey?
They should have built City Hall on the southbank in Gateshead and had a proper stab at an outward-looking Metro Mayoralty, a la Greater Manchester and Greater London. Instead, they chose parochialism and inward-looking stupidity.
See also Andy Street in the West Mids, including cities which until 1974 were in Warwickshire (Brum and Cov) and Staffordshire (Wolverhampton). Plus odds and sods of historic Worcs and Shrops.
Had the WMCA only included stuff which was in Warwickshire - especially if the boundary was effectively in a city centre like Newcastle - people would have laughed.
Who cares? The entire mayoralty is a complete nonsense, geographically. It does NOT include Gateshead, which is effectively part of Newcastle despite some old-school parochial voices claiming otherwise.
It's a classic example of what happens when you leave devolution at the mercy of parochial sentiment. The unit should have been Greater Newcastle, both sides of the Tyne, which would have commanded a population of around one million.
Stupid.
Gateshead is not part of Newcastle. It is part of County Durham. A Mayor covering the area between Tyne and Tees would be my choice. Well, either a mayor or a Prince Bishop.
I mean it isn’t part of County Durham. Hasn’t been for a long time.
Indeed. It was last part of County Durham on 31 March, 1974. Almost no-one of working age considers it so. Presumably Sandy also considers Walthamstow part of Essex, Willesden part of Middlesex, Brixton part of Surrey and Greenwich part of Kent?
I don't have a viewabout those places down south, but I imagine lots of locals do.
They really, really don't. If you told 90% of people from Walthamstow that they lived in Essex they would consider you mad.
Who cares? The entire mayoralty is a complete nonsense, geographically. It does NOT include Gateshead, which is effectively part of Newcastle despite some old-school parochial voices claiming otherwise.
It's a classic example of what happens when you leave devolution at the mercy of parochial sentiment. The unit should have been Greater Newcastle, both sides of the Tyne, which would have commanded a population of around one million.
Stupid.
Gateshead is not part of Newcastle. It is part of County Durham. A Mayor covering the area between Tyne and Tees would be my choice. Well, either a mayor or a Prince Bishop.
I mean it isn’t part of County Durham. Hasn’t been for a long time.
Indeed. It was last part of County Durham on 31 March, 1974. Almost no-one of working age considers it so. Presumably Sandy also considers Walthamstow part of Essex, Willesden part of Middlesex, Brixton part of Surrey and Greenwich part of Kent?
I don't have a viewabout those places down south, but I imagine lots of locals do. However I do know that I was born in Gateshead, County Durham. I support Durham CCC. I'm from County Durham.
Try telling folk in Barnoldswick that they are in Lancashire rather than Yorkshire. They have a bloody big Yorkshire flag flying in the middle of the town!
I know that the county identities still hold strong to some however there is no denying that Newcastle and Gateshead are one city and to try and deny that is detrimental to both.
Quite right, it's this tendency for people to conflate outlying rural areas with parts of what is a single urban city that is partly to blame for this problem.
How are the numbers now for a confidence vote ? True minority c&s now ?
I just looked at Wikipedia and no. 311 officially Con, 10 DUP = 321. All opposition (including Tiggers) only makes 317. Unless Sinn Fein rock up, then NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
Yes they need a couple more Tory defections I think.
Who cares? The entire mayoralty is a complete nonsense, geographically. It does NOT include Gateshead, which is effectively part of Newcastle despite some old-school parochial voices claiming otherwise.
It's a classic example of what happens when you leave devolution at the mercy of parochial sentiment. The unit should have been Greater Newcastle, both sides of the Tyne, which would have commanded a population of around one million.
Stupid.
Gateshead is not part of Newcastle. It is part of County Durham. A Mayor covering the area between Tyne and Tees would be my choice. Well, either a mayor or a Prince Bishop.
It has not been part of County Durham for more than four decades. Almost no-one under the age of 60 considers it so. Is Brixton part of Surrey?
They should have built City Hall on the southbank in Gateshead and had a proper stab at an outward-looking Metro Mayoralty, a la Greater Manchester and Greater London. Instead, they chose parochialism and inward-looking stupidity.
See also Andy Street in the West Mids, including cities which until 1974 were in Warwickshire (Brum and Cov) and Staffordshire (Wolverhampton). Plus odds and sods of historic Worcs and Shrops.
Had the WMCA only included stuff which was in Warwickshire - especially if the boundary was effectively in a city centre like Newcastle - people would have laughed.
Spot on. The North of Tyne thing should never have been allowed to happen. It is a geographical and economic nonsense, arguably worse than the disintegrated shambles they have currently!
Will we get the floor crossing theatre or will they all just enter on the opposition side ?
Presumably the latter as they have already quit and joined the Tiggers.
Given the layout of the Commons, I'm not sure them crossing to (physically) the same side as Corbyn would be the best optics for TIG in portraying themselves as centrist.
How are the numbers now for a confidence vote ? True minority c&s now ?
I just looked at Wikipedia and no. 311 officially Con, 10 DUP = 321. All opposition (including Tiggers) only makes 317. Unless Sinn Fein rock up, then NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
Yes they need a couple more Tory defections I think.
So what happens next? Surely the price for settling the backstop will include the stepping down of Theresa May and she'll be gone by the party conference. The ERG will hope a staunch leaver takes over but it's usual for the least controversial candidate to win. This counts out Boris and I have a feeling Gove will pass up the chalice when it comes round. There is no obvious candidate although Sajid Javid obviously wants the job. An earlier post suggested Damian Hinds and they could just be right. He has the ability to talk for 5 minutes and say absolutely nothing - a safe pair of hinds. It might be needed as the post Brexit waters are chartered. As for TIG10 I suppose with a Berger and a Coffey they may end up as the Dinner Party and they all have that wet lettuce look about them. They need someone of substance to lead them. This is the usual problem for centre parties - finding gravitas out of moderation. With the TIG not fully formed and Corbyn a liability, it could just be that new Conservative leader plans for a general election in October.
Comments
Note there have already been more Conservative MP defections to the centre than took place to the SDP.
They should have built City Hall on the southbank in Gateshead and had a proper stab at an outward-looking Metro Mayoralty, a la Greater Manchester and Greater London. Instead, they chose parochialism and inward-looking stupidity.
"I will be sitting alongside them in a new centre grouping of independent MPs who share a common set of values, The Independent Group. We agree with the millions of people who feel that neither main political party represents them and that there needs to be a new offer at the heart of our politics.
"I know that being an MP is an enormous privilege and I remain hugely grateful to everyone who has supported me. I know some will now call for me to stand in a by election but neither this nor a general election would answer the fundamental question that is dividing us... for that we need a referendum on the final Brexit deal.
"I will be listening carefully to views about The Independent Group and how this could develop in the future. I remain absolutely committed to this constituency."
http://www.drsarah.org.uk
Good point!
Yes. It’s noticeable that it has been women (and mostly middle-aged women) who have shown the courage needed.
https://twitter.com/NickyMorgan01/status/1098178932904476672
Seems she has been pushed too far by lack of progress on No Deal ruling out.
But bluntly, I can't see why the Tiggers would want her.
If LK went could be another 20 including my MP
I would be very surprised if open selections are tried again anytime soon.
Brext as an issue will pass but in the future we are now going to be in the EUs sphere of influence and so there will be all sorts of questions about how far we align with them, which a large number of the head bangers in the Tory party will see as capitulation. The same split will rumble on.
https://twitter.com/SCrabbPembs/status/1098184025817133056
Try telling folk in Barnoldswick that they are in Lancashire rather than Yorkshire. They have a bloody big Yorkshire flag flying in the middle of the town!
I think this makes a GE much more likely. May will want to perform a late term abortion on TIG before it can transform into a fully fledged party.
https://twitter.com/The_Han_Dodges/status/1097988241599401985
Had the WMCA only included stuff which was in Warwickshire - especially if the boundary was effectively in a city centre like Newcastle - people would have laughed.
Yes they need a couple more Tory defections I think.