Miss Cyclefree, whilst I am not enamoured with the Government, I do think that takes things too.
The far right is not in power. The far left is in opposition. Whilst that's alarming, the reverse would be far more so.
Edited extra bit: ahem. Too far*.
A No Deal exit so that the ERG can follow their fantasy of a Britain doing what it wants unconstrained by any sort of rules or treaties or legally binding promises it has made, even at the cost of businesses relocating (“Fuck business”) or the risk of shortages of medicines or food,
We have a deal on offer. We have the ability to remain by revoking. We could have another referendum. But rather than taking any of these options we intend to take our head and bash it again against a brick wall and then complain that the brick wall has given us a headache.
I am sure you accept that after yesterday a second referendum is unlikely, and revoking is near impossible
Nothing that happened yesterday makes the resolution of that impasse any more likely.
I know the Remainer wake is in full flow but I think that is denial. The EU and the Uk are back talking on the one remaining point of the deal that is preventing progress.
Sure there will be noise and threats from both sides but the days of wailing that there is no hope in the deluded hope that this will mean Brexit isn't happening seem to be over amongst more and more MPs.
PB has some yards to go obviously.
TG absolutely right. PB has been behind the real world for at least a week and a half.
It’s basically they don’t want to believe it, and so believe what they want to believe.
Meanwhile in the real world. One form of words will replace another form of words and everyone will hail a compromise and sign up. It’s called politics. We are brexiting on May’s deal. Wake up to it.
Fudge on the backstop has been confidently predicted since last January. Still none is forthcoming. If May doesn't get anything in the next couple of weeks will you change your prediction, or insist that it still just needs one last heave?
😁 I’m not trying to hurt you, I’m just trying to wake you up.
Benchmark against the Good Friday Agreement itself. Did GFA happen because of a form of words, or was it willingness of all parties to agree on less painful way forward. Ditto you have the current situation, Mays Deal v No Deal the last two options standing.
Why do you need a second referendum just because Parliament didn't like the result of the first. Would that apply to future referendums and to a Scottish devolution vote if it comes?
I'm a bit reluctant to do this again as it's been done to death here but it's not just that it doesn't *like* the results of the first, it can't agree how to implement it, and there's no way it can implement it in a way that keeps the promises made to the people who voted for it.
On devolution, it was pre-legislative which is sub-optimal so there would have been a case for having one after the specific legislation was drawn up, but it was weaker than with the EU because: 1) They already had the Constitutional Convention that agreed what devolution should look like. 2) Devolution would be fairly easy to reverse if the voters turn out not to like it.
If we were talking Scottish Independence, I think there would be a strong case for a second referendum once you knew what it would actually look like. If people had voted for independence thinking they'd have an open border, keep the pound and stay in the EU, then it turned out they'd have a hard border, their own (shitty) currency and the EU wouldn't let them in, they should definitely have had a chance to say "Whoa WTF, we don't want to do this any more".
'Something that works' and 'something that cannot pass in the House of Commons' is a contradiction in terms. Something that works in theory and not reality isn't something that works.
And if he holds onto the backstop and the Commons doesn't change its mind, then it guarantees no backstop or any remotely comparable situation, which is apparently what he wants to avoid.
As I’ve been saying for a while, the idea that the US will do the UK any favours at all if we are perceived to have caused Ireland any kibd of harm is for the fairies. The Irish American lobby is immensely powerful - especially on the Democrat side. Presidential nomination candidates will also have to have a take on this.
We’ve been very clear we’re not going to impose a hard border
In one of the recent conversations somebody said that refusal to take control of the border would enable the rest of the world to bypass WTO regs and funnel goods into the UK legally.
his boss is in deep shit, he has upset the farmers
they are up in arms as he said he is cutting back on red meat.
great for PR in South Dublin not so great for rural Ireland
You think Leo Varadkar is such a trend setter he can move markets with one comment?
not me, Im simply reporting the views of the IFA
It is important the Taoiseach remembers he is the Taoiseach for the whole country, not just Dublin," said Mr Healy, referring to Mr Varadkar's recent comments about his decision to limit the amount of red meat in his diet.
"Of course, the Taoiseach can eat what he likes, but as the leader of a country which relies heavily on our agri sector, we expect him to be more supportive of our top-quality products. We won't be driven off the land by keyboard warriors, quacks or lifestyle gurus," Mr Healy added.
I accept you think the referendum should be honoured despite your many arguments against Leave.
I also think so too. It would be nice if the EU could be revised but that's never going to happen. It should push on full speed or settle for being a trading bloc alone.
As a citizen of a non-member state I’m sure the EU will give appropriate weight to your advice on its future direction.
his boss is in deep shit, he has upset the farmers
they are up in arms as he said he is cutting back on red meat.
great for PR in South Dublin not so great for rural Ireland
You think Leo Varadkar is such a trend setter he can move markets with one comment?
not me, Im simply reporting the views of the IFA
It is important the Taoiseach remembers he is the Taoiseach for the whole country, not just Dublin," said Mr Healy, referring to Mr Varadkar's recent comments about his decision to limit the amount of red meat in his diet.
"Of course, the Taoiseach can eat what he likes, but as the leader of a country which relies heavily on our agri sector, we expect him to be more supportive of our top-quality products. We won't be driven off the land by keyboard warriors, quacks or lifestyle gurus," Mr Healy added.
Better than being sent naked into the negotiating chamber.
Well that might be one way of resolving Brexit. Naked debates. Short (stop sniggering), less desire to interrupt and a strong desire to get out of there.
Better than being sent naked into the negotiating chamber.
Well that might be one way of resolving Brexit. Naked debates. Short (stop sniggering), less desire to interrupt and a strong desire to get out of there.
his boss is in deep shit, he has upset the farmers
they are up in arms as he said he is cutting back on red meat.
great for PR in South Dublin not so great for rural Ireland
You think Leo Varadkar is such a trend setter he can move markets with one comment?
not me, Im simply reporting the views of the IFA
It is important the Taoiseach remembers he is the Taoiseach for the whole country, not just Dublin," said Mr Healy, referring to Mr Varadkar's recent comments about his decision to limit the amount of red meat in his diet.
"Of course, the Taoiseach can eat what he likes, but as the leader of a country which relies heavily on our agri sector, we expect him to be more supportive of our top-quality products. We won't be driven off the land by keyboard warriors, quacks or lifestyle gurus," Mr Healy added.
his boss is in deep shit, he has upset the farmers
they are up in arms as he said he is cutting back on red meat.
great for PR in South Dublin not so great for rural Ireland
You think Leo Varadkar is such a trend setter he can move markets with one comment?
not me, Im simply reporting the views of the IFA
It is important the Taoiseach remembers he is the Taoiseach for the whole country, not just Dublin," said Mr Healy, referring to Mr Varadkar's recent comments about his decision to limit the amount of red meat in his diet.
"Of course, the Taoiseach can eat what he likes, but as the leader of a country which relies heavily on our agri sector, we expect him to be more supportive of our top-quality products. We won't be driven off the land by keyboard warriors, quacks or lifestyle gurus," Mr Healy added.
Better than being sent naked into the negotiating chamber.
Well that might be one way of resolving Brexit. Naked debates. Short (stop sniggering), less desire to interrupt and a strong desire to get out of there.
I am sure you accept that after yesterday a second referendum is unlikely, and revoking is near impossible
Nothing that happened yesterday makes the resolution of that impasse any more likely.
I know the Remainer wake is in full flow but I think that is denial. The EU and the Uk are back talking on the one remaining point of the deal that is preventing progress.
February 14.
I'd say the chances of a second referendum have actually gone up.
Unicorn spotted! This is the real world calling Meeks, come back please.
Your post is missing something: anything other than blind disagreement. I explained my logic. I get that you don't like it. Perhaps you might wish to provide something other than an emotional response?
On a morning when every EU official who has bothered getting up this morning has reiterated that the EU is not reopening the withdrawal agreement, you are going to struggle to find much evidence that there is any willingness for the EU to offer a figleaf to cover Theresa May's blushes.
Not at all. I am explaining what politics is and how it works. Nothing actually needs to change in terms of wording, just change in terms of willingness to deal. Your use of the word emotion is fascinating because (to come over all Zola) I see all this as tempers, not people. For example, Benchmark against the Good Friday Agreement itself. Did GFA happen because of a form of words, or was it willingness of all parties to agree on less painful way forward. Ditto you have the current situation, Mays Deal v No Deal the last two options standing. How clear was GFA to happen before it actually happened? I recall it seemed all a bit weird and unbelievable. But it wasn’t weird or unbelievable, once you subtract people and emotions and opinions from politics, human beings choose the less painful way forward. Just like in Galaxy Quest where they observe the timer always stops on one.
Now if there were other options on table, such as peoples vote, i would agree with you, but main point of my argument being wake up to the fact there aren’t, British and Irish Governments, all EU and all Tory and Unionists have to choose from now is between May’s deal and No Deal as the lesser of two evils. So to speak.
his boss is in deep shit, he has upset the farmers
they are up in arms as he said he is cutting back on red meat.
great for PR in South Dublin not so great for rural Ireland
You think Leo Varadkar is such a trend setter he can move markets with one comment?
not me, Im simply reporting the views of the IFA
It is important the Taoiseach remembers he is the Taoiseach for the whole country, not just Dublin," said Mr Healy, referring to Mr Varadkar's recent comments about his decision to limit the amount of red meat in his diet.
"Of course, the Taoiseach can eat what he likes, but as the leader of a country which relies heavily on our agri sector, we expect him to be more supportive of our top-quality products. We won't be driven off the land by keyboard warriors, quacks or lifestyle gurus," Mr Healy added.
It's the leading article in next issue's Weatherspoons News. Lard and gravy are the new Brie. Apparently all the fashionable Leavers are recommending it. From their chateaux in France...
Miss Cyclefree, whilst I am not enamoured with the Government, I do think that takes things too.
The far right is not in power. The far left is in opposition. Whilst that's alarming, the reverse would be far more so.
Edited extra bit: ahem. Too far*.
A No Deal exit so that the ERG can follow their fantasy of a Britain doing what it wants unconstrained by any sort of rules or treaties or legally binding promises it has made, even at the cost of businesses relocating (“Fuck business”) or the risk of shortages of medicines or food, and with a government prepared to use martial law if people object, seems to me to be far closer to a far right government than I ever expected to see in my lifetime in Britain.
And it makes the chances of a Far Left government much higher. Indeed, it will likely act as its midwife.
We have a deal on offer. We have the ability to remain by revoking. We could have another referendum. But rather than taking any of these options we intend to take our head and bash it again against a brick wall and then complain that the brick wall has given us a headache.
I am sure you accept that after yesterday a second referendum is unlikely, and revoking is near impossible
Nothing that happened yesterday makes the resolution of that impasse any more likely.
I know the Remainer wake is in full flow but I think that is denial. The EU and the Uk are back talking on the one remaining point of the deal that is preventing progress.
Sure there will be noise and threats from both sides but the days of wailing that there is no hope in the deluded hope that this will mean Brexit isn't happening seem to be over amongst more and more MPs.
PB has some yards to go obviously.
Erm, what talking? The conversation runs thus:
Conservative party: change the backstop to something else. EU: no - you don't even know what "something else is". Conservative party:... EU:... Conservative party:...
February 14.
It does look as if the past few days' events have taken some outcomes off the table (revoking A50, a second referendum, extending A50 to faff around) so to that extent, I think it does make a resolution more likely.
If at the end of March we are facing No Deal, can we not Revoke?
Better than being sent naked into the negotiating chamber.
Well that might be one way of resolving Brexit. Naked debates. Short (stop sniggering), less desire to interrupt and a strong desire to get out of there.
Ooh I don’t know, Dominic Raab is a bit buff.
A bit duff I might have gone with.
Raaaaab comes across as a tad AC/DC.
And is it just me or has May’s physiology changed in recent months, her face is now all puffy and fleshy and round, making her look more warm and friendly?
Miss Cyclefree, whilst I am not enamoured with the Government, I do think that takes things too.
The far right is not in power. The far left is in opposition. Whilst that's alarming, the reverse would be far more so.
Edited extra bit: ahem. Too far*.
A No Deal exit so that the ERG can follow their fantasy of a Britain doing what it wants unconstrained by any sort of rules or treaties or legally binding promises it has made, even at the cost of businesses relocating (“Fuck business”) or the risk of shortages of medicines or food, and with a government prepared to use martial law if people object, seems to me to be far closer to a far right government than I ever expected to see in my lifetime in Britain.
And it makes the chances of a Far Left government much higher. Indeed, it will likely act as its midwife.
We have a deal on offer. We have the ability to remain by revoking. We could have another referendum. But rather than taking any of these options we intend to take our head and bash it again against a brick wall and then complain that the brick wall has given us a headache.
I am sure you accept that after yesterday a second referendum is unlikely, and revoking is near impossible
Nothing that happened yesterday makes the resolution of that impasse any more likely.
I know the Remainer wake is in full flow but I think that is denial. The EU and the Uk are back talking on the one remaining point of the deal that is preventing progress.
Sure there will be noise and threats from both sides but the days of wailing that there is no hope in the deluded hope that this will mean Brexit isn't happening seem to be over amongst more and more MPs.
PB has some yards to go obviously.
Erm, what talking? The conversation runs thus:
Conservative party: change the backstop to something else. EU: no - you don't even know what "something else is". Conservative party:... EU:... Conservative party:...
February 14.
It does look as if the past few days' events have taken some outcomes off the table (revoking A50, a second referendum, extending A50 to faff around) so to that extent, I think it does make a resolution more likely.
If at the end of March we are facing No Deal, can we not Revoke?
That would be the only way to abide by last night's Spelman amendment.
Better than being sent naked into the negotiating chamber.
Well that might be one way of resolving Brexit. Naked debates. Short (stop sniggering), less desire to interrupt and a strong desire to get out of there.
Ooh I don’t know, Dominic Raab is a bit buff.
A bit duff I might have gone with.
Raaaaab comes across as a tad AC/DC.
And is it just me or has May’s physiology changed in recent months, her face is now all puffy and fleshy and round, making her look more warm and friendly?
It's just you. Her skin has greyed, her eyebags have grown as has her wattle. She's beginning to look like Rory Bremner's impersonation of Anne Widdecombe.
I see the Irish, while understandably not wanting to budge on the backstop, are adopting the entirely fake argument of not going back on one’s word, as though the UK had already agreed the Deal. A demonstration that even if we’re the most unreasonable, which I think is fair, we’re not the only ones being unreasonable.
I am sure you accept that after yesterday a second referendum is unlikely, and revoking is near impossible
Nothing that happened yesterday makes the resolution of that impasse any more likely.
I know the Remainer wake is in full flow but I think that is denial. The EU and the Uk are back talking on the one remaining point of the deal that is preventing progress.
February 14.
I'd say the chances of a second referendum have actually gone up.
Unicorn spotted! This is the real world calling Meeks, come back please.
Your post is missing something: anything other than blind disagreement. I explained my logic. I get that you don't like it. Perhaps you might wish to provide something other than an emotional response?
On a morning when every EU official who has bothered getting up this morning has reiterated that the EU is not reopening the withdrawal agreement, you are going to struggle to find much evidence that there is any willingness for the EU to offer a figleaf to cover Theresa May's blushes.
Not at all. I am explaining what politics is and how it works. Nothing actually needs to change in terms of wording, just change in terms of willingness to deal. Your use of the word emotion is fascinating because (to come over all Zola) I see all this as tempers, not people. For example, Benchmark against the Good Friday Agreement itself. Did GFA happen because of a form of words, or was it willingness of all parties to agree on less painful way forward. Ditto you have the current situation, Mays Deal v No Deal the last two options standing. How clear was GFA to happen before it actually happened? I recall it seemed all a bit weird and unbelievable. But it wasn’t weird or unbelievable, once you subtract people and emotions and opinions from politics, human beings choose the less painful way forward. Just like in Galaxy Quest where they observe the timer always stops on one.
Now if there were other options on table, such as peoples vote, i would agree with you, but main point of my argument being wake up to the fact there aren’t, British and Irish Governments, all EU and all Tory and Unionists have to choose from now is between May’s deal and No Deal as the lesser of two evils. So to speak.
What are you talking about? Upthread you were saying that the EU would blink and accept a new deal without a backstop. Now you're saying no other deal is even on the table?
his boss is in deep shit, he has upset the farmers
they are up in arms as he said he is cutting back on red meat.
great for PR in South Dublin not so great for rural Ireland
You think Leo Varadkar is such a trend setter he can move markets with one comment?
not me, Im simply reporting the views of the IFA
It is important the Taoiseach remembers he is the Taoiseach for the whole country, not just Dublin," said Mr Healy, referring to Mr Varadkar's recent comments about his decision to limit the amount of red meat in his diet.
"Of course, the Taoiseach can eat what he likes, but as the leader of a country which relies heavily on our agri sector, we expect him to be more supportive of our top-quality products. We won't be driven off the land by keyboard warriors, quacks or lifestyle gurus," Mr Healy added.
I see the Irish, while understandably not wanting to budge on the backstop, are adopting the entirely fake argument of not going back on one’s word, as though the UK had already agreed the Deal. A demonstration that even if we’re the most unreasonable, which I think is fair, we’re not the only ones being unreasonable.
We are behaving like the perfidious Albion some foreigners have always claimed we are. This will have real live consequences for Britain. We are making it very hard for other countries to take us seriously.
And last night’s delusional Parliamentary shenanigans have not helped.
This is not a game. Even if people did not like the decision to leave the EU, we could have earned some credit in the manner of our leaving. We are doing the complete opposite. It does us no credit at all. The fact that the reaction of some is to abuse those foreign politicians who point this out is not an example of some bulldog spirit but of someone who has been on the spirits, meths probably, to judge by the incoherent and delusional ramblings of the British politicians interviewed today.
Once we are out with no deal there is no backstop. We either have an implemented hard border or not.
There may be direct discussions about finding ways to create a soft border again but it won’t be the current proposal - that makes no sense post an exit
When we move to No Deal the Irish border will remain just as it is now. That will help the Irish, but it won't help us.
You mean the EU have been lying throughout the negotiations?
If this is the case why die in a ditch for the backstop
The backstop is necessary to the WA because without one there could be regulatory divergence between the Republic and NI which runs contrary to the GFA.
You have said there will be no hard border post no deal. That’s inconsistent with your point just above
Sigh. I reckon there should be a market up soon of how long the UK will tolerate no deal. I reckon 3 weeks max. Hungry, stuck, sick and very angry.
What do the EU do then? They will have us completely over a barrel. I really hope someone in Brussels has a piece of paper that we'd just have to sign for a temporary membership extension (even though we've fallen out.)
his boss is in deep shit, he has upset the farmers
they are up in arms as he said he is cutting back on red meat.
great for PR in South Dublin not so great for rural Ireland
You think Leo Varadkar is such a trend setter he can move markets with one comment?
not me, Im simply reporting the views of the IFA
It is important the Taoiseach remembers he is the Taoiseach for the whole country, not just Dublin," said Mr Healy, referring to Mr Varadkar's recent comments about his decision to limit the amount of red meat in his diet.
"Of course, the Taoiseach can eat what he likes, but as the leader of a country which relies heavily on our agri sector, we expect him to be more supportive of our top-quality products. We won't be driven off the land by keyboard warriors, quacks or lifestyle gurus," Mr Healy added.
Sigh. I reckon there should be a market up soon of how long the UK will tolerate no deal. I reckon 3 weeks max. Hungry, stuck, sick and very angry.
What do the EU do then? They will have us completely over a barrel. I really hope someone in Brussels has a piece of paper that we'd just have to sign for a temporary membership extension (even though we've fallen out.)
They say: "that Withdrawal Agreement: you can still sign it.".
Once we are out with no deal there is no backstop. We either have an implemented hard border or not.
There may be direct discussions about finding ways to create a soft border again but it won’t be the current proposal - that makes no sense post an exit
When we move to No Deal the Irish border will remain just as it is now. That will help the Irish, but it won't help us.
You mean the EU have been lying throughout the negotiations?
If this is the case why die in a ditch for the backstop
The backstop is necessary to the WA because without one there could be regulatory divergence between the Republic and NI which runs contrary to the GFA.
Do you have a reference for that assertion, because I've read the text of the Belfast Agreement a few times and I've not seen any commitment to avoid regulatory divergence?
It would be helpful if people didn't keep adding imaginary clauses to the GFA.
In two weeks May has to come back to the Commons. It's unlikely the EU will have given ground on the backstop by then, even if the government were somehow able to articulate what its so-called alternative arrangements were. So in all likelihood, faced with a rising prospect of No Deal, the Cooper amendment would pass at this point, including perhaps with support from current Cabinet ministers. The government faces losing control of the process, and the ERG and DUP then will have to decide whether they can support the deal, with no substantive changes, or allow parliament to preside over a softer form of Brexit. I would guess not enough would support the deal for it to pass, so a delay still seems significantly more likely than not. It does not seem dramatically mis-priced.
Cooper amendment cannot be resubmitted
It could probably be resubmitted in a slightly different form - such as changing the time period from 9 months to 3 months.
Comments
Benchmark against the Good Friday Agreement itself. Did GFA happen because of a form of words, or was it willingness of all parties to agree on less painful way forward. Ditto you have the current situation, Mays Deal v No Deal the last two options standing.
they are up in arms as he said he is cutting back on red meat.
great for PR in South Dublin not so great for rural Ireland
On devolution, it was pre-legislative which is sub-optimal so there would have been a case for having one after the specific legislation was drawn up, but it was weaker than with the EU because:
1) They already had the Constitutional Convention that agreed what devolution should look like.
2) Devolution would be fairly easy to reverse if the voters turn out not to like it.
If we were talking Scottish Independence, I think there would be a strong case for a second referendum once you knew what it would actually look like. If people had voted for independence thinking they'd have an open border, keep the pound and stay in the EU, then it turned out they'd have a hard border, their own (shitty) currency and the EU wouldn't let them in, they should definitely have had a chance to say "Whoa WTF, we don't want to do this any more".
'Something that works' and 'something that cannot pass in the House of Commons' is a contradiction in terms. Something that works in theory and not reality isn't something that works.
And if he holds onto the backstop and the Commons doesn't change its mind, then it guarantees no backstop or any remotely comparable situation, which is apparently what he wants to avoid.
It is important the Taoiseach remembers he is the Taoiseach for the whole country, not just Dublin," said Mr Healy, referring to Mr Varadkar's recent comments about his decision to limit the amount of red meat in his diet.
"Of course, the Taoiseach can eat what he likes, but as the leader of a country which relies heavily on our agri sector, we expect him to be more supportive of our top-quality products. We won't be driven off the land by keyboard warriors, quacks or lifestyle gurus," Mr Healy added.
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/we-have-to-hold-our-nerve-taoiseach-tells-farmers-as-they-reveal-fears-over-no-deal-37764135.html
Upsetting farmers in Ireland is never a good idea
Perhaps the only time Sammy will be compared to Marie Antoinette.
https://twitter.com/Trickyjabs/status/1090560811473485824
a similar thing happened George Bush Sr when he said he didnt like broccoli. Farmers delivered 10 tonnes of it to the white house.
Now if there were other options on table, such as peoples vote, i would agree with you, but main point of my argument being wake up to the fact there aren’t, British and Irish Governments, all EU and all Tory and Unionists have to choose from now is between May’s deal and No Deal as the lesser of two evils. So to speak.
The Tories are very likely to win an overall majority at the next election.
And is it just me or has May’s physiology changed in recent months, her face is now all puffy and fleshy and round, making her look more warm and friendly?
I see the Irish, while understandably not wanting to budge on the backstop, are adopting the entirely fake argument of not going back on one’s word, as though the UK had already agreed the Deal. A demonstration that even if we’re the most unreasonable, which I think is fair, we’re not the only ones being unreasonable.
And last night’s delusional Parliamentary shenanigans have not helped.
This is not a game. Even if people did not like the decision to leave the EU, we could have earned some credit in the manner of our leaving. We are doing the complete opposite. It does us no credit at all. The fact that the reaction of some is to abuse those foreign politicians who point this out is not an example of some bulldog spirit but of someone who has been on the spirits, meths probably, to judge by the incoherent and delusional ramblings of the British politicians interviewed today.
What do the EU do then? They will have us completely over a barrel. I really hope someone in Brussels has a piece of paper that we'd just have to sign for a temporary membership extension (even though we've fallen out.)
The Tory unity half-life is still the same as ever.
It would be helpful if people didn't keep adding imaginary clauses to the GFA.