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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Hmm. Betfair has 3.8 on 300-309 MPs backing the No Confidence motion. Favourite band is the one above, 310-319, at 1.47.

    Commons numbers:
    Con 317
    DUP 10

    Lab 256
    SNP 35
    Lib Dems 11
    Plaid 4
    Green 1
    Independent 8

    Not counted speaker/deputies, or Sinn Fein.

    So a maximum non-Con/DUP turnout would be 315. But it only requires 6 to not back the motion for the 300-309 band to come off (assuming no angry blue backbenchers support it). I'm sure the SNP, Lib Dems, Plaid, and Green will all go for it. Which leaves 8 independents and 256 Labour MPs. Might the likes of Mann, Flint, Hoey, and some independents decide now is not the time for a General Election?

    The MP totals add up to 642. I think you've included the deputies but not the Speaker. So you need to take two Labour MPs off the total, bringing it down to 254. The two tellers won't vote, bringing it down to 252. So assuming the Conservatives and the DUP do as expected, your maximum is 311.

    MPs to think about if you're playing that game:

    Frank Field
    Lady Sylvia Hermon
    John Woodcock
    Stephen Lloyd
    Paul Flynn (who is, I understand, very ill)

    Personally I'd expect every other MP outside the Conservatives and the DUP to back the motion.

    I'd make 300-309 favourite.
    Do you think some Tories might break ranks.
    Surely any Conservative voting no confidence in their own government could expect to be kicked out of the party?

    They’ve been easy on the likes of Grieve and his shenanigans up until now, but voting down the government would surely be a step too far?
    Not if they believe brexit must be stopped as it's the worst thing the country has done for 70 years.

    I discount no dealers as they don't need the gov to fall to get what they want, remainers might have no option.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011
    So, nothing has changed. If we are to leave the European Union we must ratify the Withdrawal Treaty. As expected, not ready to do so on 15th January.
  • A Sky poll this morning shows 53% think mps should not vote to bring down TM while 38% do

    If we think on that, what an abject failure by Corbyn in all the circumstances

    Surely under any capable labour leader the poll would have easily been reversed
  • TOPPING said:

    Had an entertaining exchange with local angry Brexiteers on Facebook. They are demanding that our MP respect the referendum. They are also delighted that the deal was voted down (on the grounds that it didn't deliver against the referendum promise of leaving the EU).

    My questions to them were two:
    1. Mays deal was Brexit. We would have left the EU in March. When you claim her deal meant we wouldn't have left the EU in March what do you mean by "leave" and "EU"
    2. You want our MP to deliver the referendum. You think Mays deal didn't deliver the referendum. He voted against it as you wished. Why did he vote wrong?

    They seem confused...

    It is the most bizarre turn of events that a deal which transparently *was* Brexit is being criticised as not being Brexit.

    But of course you factored all this in when you voted Leave, right?
    Nope - I hadn't anticipated the levels of alt fact stupidity which has now taken over the body politic.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,831
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    The Conservatives are “the enemies of decency in this country” are they?

    This is what fucks me off about so many on the left

    You may disagree with their policies but, in the main, Conservatives are normal people doing what they think is right for the country. They are neither better or worse than any other politicians.
    If there aren't any better politicians than current crop of incompetents and walking personality disorders governing us, we really are fucked.
    Which we probably are.
    Thing is, you could be a politician. So could anyone here (some of course have). There are precisely zero barriers to entry to become an MP. So I really don't get why people criticise MPs. If you don't like it, get in there and sort it out!
    The hoops you'd have to jump through to reach the point where you had a reasonable chance would put most sensible people off.
    Sure but no one is going to, say, look at your GCSE results and say "no".
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,833
    edited January 2019
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Guten Morgen, my fellow Europeans.

    I was amused by the BBC waffle last night. Leaving aside James Landale's three minute segment during which he excitingly revealed things are a bit difficult to predict right now, Huw Edwards and Laura Kuenssberg suggesting the scale of the defeat was a shock was, er, wrong.

    Sky's prediction in the morning had circa 198 voting for the deal, which was very close. Some handsome fellow or other also backed both the specific 10-seat band and the wider 50-seat band, on Betfair and Ladbrokes respectively, and I know many others here did likewise.

    On predictions, here's something that might happen:
    May gets a tiny tinkering with the deal.
    Goes for a second vote with the threat of a referendum between her deal and Remain.
    Deal loses, second referendum occurs.

    Despite agreeing that deal v Remain is the only realistic vote, it is hard to see the deal going to the people having been voted down twice, unless there is evidence of significant public support for it (which there isn't; the poll support is falling away).
    The people will quickly abandon it now too, plenty won't want to back a loser. To even be considered again the deal needs tweaking. And if we could get that it would not have be whalloped quite so hard in the first place.
    It would be absurd for Parliament to offer a public vote on something it had just overwhelmingly rejected, and would be seen (rightly) as loading the dice in favour of Remain.
    Yes, but parliament would also overwhelmingly reject No Deal, which is the only other form of Leave that is available. It would be absurd to offer that too. Which just leaves Remain. It would be absurd to offer a referendum with only one choice.

    So where do we go from here?

    Do you want to Remain in the EU? Or Remain arguing about how to leave the EU?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,772

    On the numbers. There was a very ill (during pregnancy) MP last night and the Speaker and many others were furious she was made to vote in person.

    Surely that wont be allowed/made to happen tonight?

    The pairing option was provided and rejected..

    Personally i think proxy voting should be allowed, but only in deemed reasonable circumstances, not as a matter of simple convenience.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,114

    On the numbers. There was a very ill (during pregnancy) MP last night and the Speaker and many others were furious she was made to vote in person.

    Surely that wont be allowed/made to happen tonight?

    She wasn’t made to. She was offered a pair.
  • TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    The Conservatives are “the enemies of decency in this country” are they?

    This is what fucks me off about so many on the left

    You may disagree with their policies but, in the main, Conservatives are normal people doing what they think is right for the country. They are neither better or worse than any other politicians.
    If there aren't any better politicians than current crop of incompetents and walking personality disorders governing us, we really are fucked.
    Which we probably are.
    Thing is, you could be a politician. So could anyone here (some of course have). There are precisely zero barriers to entry to become an MP. So I really don't get why people criticise MPs. If you don't like it, get in there and sort it out!
    Ah, the old 'you haven't written a book/composed a symphony/painted a picture, how dare you criticise' argument.

    Meagre.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    DavidL said:

    Masterful understatement in the last sentence there Mike.

    For me, May should resign today. I agreed with every word of her speech yesterday and thought it was one of her better ones but in terms of getting a consensus she is a part of the problem, not a part of the solution.

    The government now actually needs to do some real work preparing for a no deal Brexit. There are a lot of things needing done including legislation to ensure that our legal system remains rational, guaranteeing the status of EU residents unilaterally and working on mini-deals to solve immediate problems. They should also, in my view, be clear that the UK will pay its obligations as set out in the WA whether we sign it or not.

    The government under a new leader can try to find a way forward in the Commons but I really don't expect any success at all. The gesture, very belatedly, needs to be made, however.

    If I was a Tory MP right now I would be gutted about what has happened to my party and I would be spending time trying to persuade Rory the Tory to be a candidate.

    Why do you think MPs will vote for any acts contemplating a non-consensual leave? If there is anything to take from yesterday it is that MPs know (n their own minds) what is wrong but have no positive and consensus driven view of what to do next.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    The Conservatives are “the enemies of decency in this country” are they?

    This is what fucks me off about so many on the left

    You may disagree with their policies but, in the main, Conservatives are normal people doing what they think is right for the country. They are neither better or worse than any other politicians.
    Whereas Labour leaders report directly to the Kremlin and their families sold us out during the war, and Labour voters are terminally stupid or have been bribed. Or so we've been told.
    There’s a difference between criticising an individual such as Corbyn for his actions (whether you think that is justified or not) and condemning an entire group for a non-specific charge “enemy of decency”

    And I don’t recall any significant Conservative (let’s say MP as a cut off because I’m sure you can find a parish councillor from Little Bighorn or somewhere) criticising Labour voters in the manner you suggest
    For all that the likes of Soubry are being sensible on this one issue they have still voted through heinous immoral indecent policies against (as an example) the disabled and the poor.

    If you want to defend in moral terms what social security cuts have done to reduce army veterans to starve to death in their own homes please feel free. Nor can you claim unforeseen consequences - it was foreseen, it was poo-poohed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,535
    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Guten Morgen, my fellow Europeans.

    I was amused by the BBC waffle last night. Leaving aside James Landale's three minute segment during which he excitingly revealed things are a bit difficult to predict right now, Huw Edwards and Laura Kuenssberg suggesting the scale of the defeat was a shock was, er, wrong.

    Sky's prediction in the morning had circa 198 voting for the deal, which was very close. Some handsome fellow or other also backed both the specific 10-seat band and the wider 50-seat band, on Betfair and Ladbrokes respectively, and I know many others here did likewise.

    On predictions, here's something that might happen:
    May gets a tiny tinkering with the deal.
    Goes for a second vote with the threat of a referendum between her deal and Remain.
    Deal loses, second referendum occurs.

    Despite agreeing that deal v Remain is the only realistic vote, it is hard to see the deal going to the people having been voted down twice, unless there is evidence of significant public support for it (which there isn't; the poll support is falling away).
    The people will quickly abandon it now too, plenty won't want to back a loser. To even be considered again the deal needs tweaking. And if we could get that it would not have be whalloped quite so hard in the first place.
    It would be absurd for Parliament to offer a public vote on something it had just overwhelmingly rejected, and would be seen (rightly) as loading the dice in favour of Remain.
    indeed. But what does go up against remain? Parliament has in essence indicated nothing but remain or unicorns is acceptable to them. They dont have the guts to just remain so will probably try for unicorns or remain by the back door e.g. let's revoke in order to figure out what we want, oh whoops we've remained.

    There is nothing you could put up against Remain a referendum...
    Doesn't that rather suggest the futility of Brexit ?
    https://twitter.com/PCollinsTimes/status/1085282247119458304
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,455
    edited January 2019
    IanB2 said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Guten Morgen, my fellow Europeans.

    I was amused by the BBC waffle last night. Leaving aside James Landale's three minute segment during which he excitingly revealed things are a bit difficult to predict right now, Huw Edwards and Laura Kuenssberg suggesting the scale of the defeat was a shock was, er, wrong.

    Sky's prediction in the morning had circa 198 voting for the deal, which was very close. Some handsome fellow or other also backed both the specific 10-seat band and the wider 50-seat band, on Betfair and Ladbrokes respectively, and I know many others here did likewise.

    On predictions, here's something that might happen:
    May gets a tiny tinkering with the deal.
    Goes for a second vote with the threat of a referendum between her deal and Remain.
    Deal loses, second referendum occurs.

    Despite agreeing that deal v Remain is the only realistic vote, it is hard to see the deal going to the people having been voted down twice, unless there is evidence of significant public support for it (which there isn't; the poll support is falling away).
    The people will quickly abandon it now too, plenty won't want to back a loser. To even be considered again the deal needs tweaking. And if we could get that it would not have be whalloped quite so hard in the first place.
    It would be absurd for Parliament to offer a public vote on something it had just overwhelmingly rejected, and would be seen (rightly) as loading the dice in favour of Remain.
    Yes, but parliament would also overwhelmingly reject No Deal, which is the only other form of Leave that is available. It would be absurd to offer that too. Which just leaves Remain. It would be absurd to offer a referendum with only one choice.

    So where do we go from here?

    Do you want to Remain in the EU? Or Remain arguing about how to leave the EU?
    Matt (as always) put it best yesterday. At some point the MPs have got to stop saying what they don’t want, and speak up for what they do want.

    https://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/1084867777679294464/photo/1
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011

    On the numbers. There was a very ill (during pregnancy) MP last night and the Speaker and many others were furious she was made to vote in person.

    Surely that wont be allowed/made to happen tonight?

    That was my MP. Crazy. But to be fair it was her choice to turn up.

    "If my son enters the world even one day later than the doctors advised, but it's a world with a better chance of a strong relationship between Britain and Europe, then that's worth fighting for."

    Virtue signalling par excellence.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,831

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    The Conservatives are “the enemies of decency in this country” are they?

    This is what fucks me off about so many on the left

    You may disagree with their policies but, in the main, Conservatives are normal people doing what they think is right for the country. They are neither better or worse than any other politicians.
    If there aren't any better politicians than current crop of incompetents and walking personality disorders governing us, we really are fucked.
    Which we probably are.
    Thing is, you could be a politician. So could anyone here (some of course have). There are precisely zero barriers to entry to become an MP. So I really don't get why people criticise MPs. If you don't like it, get in there and sort it out!
    Ah, the old 'you haven't written a book/composed a symphony/painted a picture, how dare you criticise' argument.

    Meagre.
    Not at all. It is more like saying "that bastard printed out his own book at home on his laser printer and handed it out on the tube".

    You could do that also.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790

    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Guten Morgen, my fellow Europeans.

    I was amused by the BBC waffle last night. Leaving aside James Landale's three minute segment during which he excitingly revealed things are a bit difficult to predict right now, Huw Edwards and Laura Kuenssberg suggesting the scale of the defeat was a shock was, er, wrong.

    Sky's prediction in the morning had circa 198 voting for the deal, which was very close. Some handsome fellow or other also backed both the specific 10-seat band and the wider 50-seat band, on Betfair and Ladbrokes respectively, and I know many others here did likewise.

    On predictions, here's something that might happen:
    May gets a tiny tinkering with the deal.
    Goes for a second vote with the threat of a referendum between her deal and Remain.
    Deal loses, second referendum occurs.

    Despite agreeing that deal v Remain is the only realistic vote, it is hard to see the deal going to the people having been voted down twice, unless there is evidence of significant public support for it (which there isn't; the poll support is falling away).
    The people will quickly abandon it now too, plenty won't want to back a loser. To even be considered again the deal needs tweaking. And if we could get that it would not have be whalloped quite so hard in the first place.
    It would be absurd for Parliament to offer a public vote on something it had just overwhelmingly rejected, and would be seen (rightly) as loading the dice in favour of Remain.
    indeed. But what does go up against remain? Parliament has in essence indicated nothing but remain or unicorns is acceptable to them. They dont have the guts to just remain so will probably try for unicorns or remain by the back door e.g. let's revoke in order to figure out what we want, oh whoops we've remained.

    There is nothing you could put up against Remain a referendum...
    Doesn't that rather suggest the futility of Brexit ?
    https://twitter.com/PCollinsTimes/status/1085282247119458304
    'I haven't got a clue' would probably win, as it would be a true statement for a very large slug of the electorate.
  • Mortimer said:

    On the numbers. There was a very ill (during pregnancy) MP last night and the Speaker and many others were furious she was made to vote in person.

    Surely that wont be allowed/made to happen tonight?

    She wasn’t made to. She was offered a pair.
    Was it Brandon 'Honest Mistake' Lewis who offered it?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,735
    Mr. Kinabalu, be fair. The vote might've gone the other way if she hadn't turned up.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Mortimer said:

    On the numbers. There was a very ill (during pregnancy) MP last night and the Speaker and many others were furious she was made to vote in person.

    Surely that wont be allowed/made to happen tonight?

    She wasn’t made to. She was offered a pair.
    and it wasn't a remotely close vote she needed to be there for

    Frankly the entire thing screamed of ego and attention grabbing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,454
    IanB2 said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Guten Morgen, my fellow Europeans.

    I was amused by the BBC waffle last night. Leaving aside James Landale's three minute segment during which he excitingly revealed things are a bit difficult to predict right now, Huw Edwards and Laura Kuenssberg suggesting the scale of the defeat was a shock was, er, wrong.

    Sky's prediction in the morning had circa 198 voting for the deal, which was very close. Some handsome fellow or other also backed both the specific 10-seat band and the wider 50-seat band, on Betfair and Ladbrokes respectively, and I know many others here did likewise.

    On predictions, here's something that might happen:
    May gets a tiny tinkering with the deal.
    Goes for a second vote with the threat of a referendum between her deal and Remain.
    Deal loses, second referendum occurs.

    Despite agreeing that deal v Remain is the only realistic vote, it is hard to see the deal going to the people having been voted down twice, unless there is evidence of significant public support for it (which there isn't; the poll support is falling away).
    The people will quickly abandon it now too, plenty won't want to back a loser. To even be considered again the deal needs tweaking. And if we could get that it would not have be whalloped quite so hard in the first place.
    It would be absurd for Parliament to offer a public vote on something it had just overwhelmingly rejected, and would be seen (rightly) as loading the dice in favour of Remain.
    Yes, but parliament would also overwhelmingly reject No Deal, which is the only other form of Leave that is available. It would be absurd to offer that too. Which just leaves Remain. It would be absurd to offer a referendum with only one choice.

    So where do we go from here?

    Do you want to Remain in the EU? Or Remain arguing about how to leave the EU?
    Or Remain arguing about how to leave the EU until, bugger - we've No Deal Brexited. How did that happen? Nobody told me that would happen when we approved the legislation.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Guten Morgen, my fellow Europeans.

    I was amused by the BBC waffle last night. Leaving aside James Landale's three minute segment during which he excitingly revealed things are a bit difficult to predict right now, Huw Edwards and Laura Kuenssberg suggesting the scale of the defeat was a shock was, er, wrong.

    Sky's prediction in the morning had circa 198 voting for the deal, which was very close. Some handsome fellow or other also backed both the specific 10-seat band and the wider 50-seat band, on Betfair and Ladbrokes respectively, and I know many others here did likewise.

    On predictions, here's something that might happen:
    May gets a tiny tinkering with the deal.
    Goes for a second vote with the threat of a referendum between her deal and Remain.
    Deal loses, second referendum occurs.

    Despite agreeing that deal v Remain is the only realistic vote, it is hard to see the deal going to the people having been voted down twice, unless there is evidence of significant public support for it (which there isn't; the poll support is falling away).
    The people will quickly abandon it now too, plenty won't want to back a loser. To even be considered again the deal needs tweaking. And if we could get that it would not have be whalloped quite so hard in the first place.
    It would be absurd for Parliament to offer a public vote on something it had just overwhelmingly rejected, and would be seen (rightly) as loading the dice in favour of Remain.
    Yes, but parliament would also overwhelmingly reject No Deal, which is the only other form of Leave that is available. It would be absurd to offer that too. Which just leaves Remain. It would be absurd to offer a referendum with only one choice.

    So where do we go from here?

    Do you want to Remain in the EU? Or Remain arguing about how to leave the EU?
    Matt (as always) put it best yesterday. At some point the MPs have got to stop saying what they don’t want, and speak up for what they do want.

    https://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/1084867777679294464/photo/1
    Vegan Brexit ?
  • TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Morning all,

    Are Sinn Fein on the shuttle from Belfast this morning?

    A united Ireland would be within touching distance if they did it.
    But they'd still lose wouldn't they? So why bother?
    We might get people agitating for @Richard_Tyndall's suggestion of asking what a majority of Northern Ireland wanted from all this.
    Would be a mammoth improvement on the likes of Varadkar trying to dictate what should happen to the people of Northern Ireland and disenfranchise them and the people they elect from having a say.
  • Mortimer said:

    On the numbers. There was a very ill (during pregnancy) MP last night and the Speaker and many others were furious she was made to vote in person.

    Surely that wont be allowed/made to happen tonight?

    She wasn’t made to. She was offered a pair.
    Was it Brandon 'Honest Mistake' Lewis who offered it?
    Fake news.

    It was Julian Smith.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Guten Morgen, my fellow Europeans.

    I was amused by the BBC waffle last night. Leaving aside James Landale's three minute segment during which he excitingly revealed things are a bit difficult to predict right now, Huw Edwards and Laura Kuenssberg suggesting the scale of the defeat was a shock was, er, wrong.

    Sky's prediction in the morning had circa 198 voting for the deal, which was very close. Some handsome fellow or other also backed both the specific 10-seat band and the wider 50-seat band, on Betfair and Ladbrokes respectively, and I know many others here did likewise.

    On predictions, here's something that might happen:
    May gets a tiny tinkering with the deal.
    Goes for a second vote with the threat of a referendum between her deal and Remain.
    Deal loses, second referendum occurs.

    Despite agreeing that deal v Remain is the only realistic vote, it is hard to see the deal going to the people having been voted down twice, unless there is evidence of significant public support for it (which there isn't; the poll support is falling away).
    The people will quickly abandon it now too, plenty won't want to back a loser. To even be considered again the deal needs tweaking. And if we could get that it would not have be whalloped quite so hard in the first place.
    It would be absurd for Parliament to offer a public vote on something it had just overwhelmingly rejected, and would be seen (rightly) as loading the dice in favour of Remain.
    Yes, but parliament would also overwhelmingly reject No Deal, which is the only other form of Leave that is available. It would be absurd to offer that too. Which just leaves Remain. It would be absurd to offer a referendum with only one choice.

    So where do we go from here?
    I would restate my view on a second referendum. I think it only works where the country collectively decides it made a mistake about Brexit and is looking for an out. So in that case "May's Deal" as the Leave alternative could be OK. But you would want to be pretty certain Remain will win.

    Otherwise the long grass would be the way to go. Note that the country (narrowly) decided to leave European Union. Note also that no acceptable way of leaving the EU has yet been found. Revoke Article 50. Set up a Commission to establish a path that will work for most of the stakeholders. And let that process take its course.
  • NEW THREAD

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994
    A majority of Tory backbenchers have no confidence in the Prime Minister and no confidence in her Brexit deal. And yet this evening, like good little boys and girls, they will all trot through the lobby to proclaim that they have confidence in the government.

    As I said upthread, other than Brexit the government isn't doing anything. So what exactly are they claiming to have confidence in?

    Better for them to get rid of May today and pick a new PM in the next 2 weeks to try and sort out the Brexit mess.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Unstoppable force - "we can't POSSIBLY have Hard Deal Brexit!" - meet Immoveable Object - "Hi - I'm Hard Brexit, and I'm going nowhere....."

    Of course, we could go for an extension. To kick their collision point somewhere down the road.

    But only if that nice Mr. Macron says so. Without wanting our fish.

    Oh, and the Greeks not wanting their Marbles back.

    Oh, and....

    But the Immoveable Object has really enjoyed the past month. He's getting quite comfy now.

    We've moved on from Prosecco and BMWs to fish and antiquities I see. The self-indulgent lying is something to behold.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011

    Mr. Kinabalu, be fair. The vote might've gone the other way if she hadn't turned up.

    Or perhaps the very real psychological gulf between a margin of 230 and 228.

    If it had been 228 we could be looking at a totally different Plan B.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    The Conservatives are “the enemies of decency in this country” are they?

    This is what fucks me off about so many on the left

    You may disagree with their policies but, in the main, Conservatives are normal people doing what they think is right for the country. They are neither better or worse than any other politicians.
    If there aren't any better politicians than current crop of incompetents and walking personality disorders governing us, we really are fucked.
    Which we probably are.
    Thing is, you could be a politician. So could anyone here (some of course have). There are precisely zero barriers to entry to become an MP. So I really don't get why people criticise MPs. If you don't like it, get in there and sort it out!
    Ah, the old 'you haven't written a book/composed a symphony/painted a picture, how dare you criticise' argument.

    Meagre.
    Not at all. It is more like saying "that bastard printed out his own book at home on his laser printer and handed it out on the tube".

    You could do that also.
    I can assure you that I'd be quite comfortable expressing an opinion on your 'bastard's' book without firing up my own printer.
  • Just listened to Jon Trickett on Sky completely avoiding all questions on what labour will do if they win the vonc

    He even accused TM of being responsible for the 29th March exit date when 498 mps voted for the date and no deal, including one Jon Trickett. You couldn't make this up
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256
    Scott_P said:
    LOL, rehashed junk, Sturgeon had already said publicly that he was represented at the meeting , Gordon on an obvious path to try and rubbish Salmond, is it any wonder the rag is circling the drain with a circulation smaller than a Lib Dem leaflet.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,256

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    The Conservatives are “the enemies of decency in this country” are they?

    This is what fucks me off about so many on the left

    You may disagree with their policies but, in the main, Conservatives are normal people doing what they think is right for the country. They are neither better or worse than any other politicians.
    If there aren't any better politicians than current crop of incompetents and walking personality disorders governing us, we really are fucked.
    Which we probably are.
    Thing is, you could be a politician. So could anyone here (some of course have). There are precisely zero barriers to entry to become an MP. So I really don't get why people criticise MPs. If you don't like it, get in there and sort it out!
    Ah, the old 'you haven't written a book/composed a symphony/painted a picture, how dare you criticise' argument.

    Meagre.
    TUD more like complete bollox
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