Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
leavers do not seem so worried so may not go out and vote....
You don't think they might be disillusioned with referendums and their impact on government policy ?
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Yep, there’s a 100MW solar park just opened in Dubai, and there’s a 250MW one using more efficient panels under construction next door to it. The biggest challenge is keeping them clean from sand and dust.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
I don't agree.
Until two years ago, we were running coal in the summer.
Now only sparingly, and perhaps the year after next not at all.
Those are peak times for solar, and the reduction in demand helps us achieve that reduction.
Besides, if solar panels makes my electricity (and potentially gas via water heating) use smaller then cheaper for me and less need for the country to use coal and gas.
It only reduces your useage if you are using the power during the day when the sun is out. If you work and are out of the house mostly during daylight hours all you are doing is feeding the grid.
You could install a battery, but then your payback is greater than the lifetime of the battery.
Feeding the grid used to be profitable, and now much less so. So I think we are talking about two worlds. In the new world, it's people who are at home during the day that will benefit the most.
Agreed. I’ve ran thousands of ROI calculations on solar PV for domestic and commercial. I know what I’m talking about.
Have I stumbled on to a Green web site by mistake?
No. A website that is that over represented by wealthier people who are able to use capital to generate an investment income that drives up everyone else’s energy bills and masquerade that as some kind of virtuous eneviromental statement.
Yeah. It *was* essentially a large ROI courtesy of the taxpayer. Subsidising a fledgling renewables industry. There are of course pros and cons to that.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
With all due respect it is May who is playing chicken with Parliament over ‘No Deal’. It is her who is running down the clock.
Yes it's clearly May that's taking us to the brink. She has several options open to her all of which she is completely ignoring.
If it wasn't for the collapsing pound the crumbling stock market and the national humiliation the vox pops on radio would make an interesting study....
'If a no deal is better than a bad deal lets go for a no deal because we've already got a bad deal'
.....and you know that the person offering this opinion hasn't the faintest idea what it means other than that it sounds clever.
.....Which just goes to show the selling potential of a well turned soundbite.
There are no good soundbites coming out of Labour though.
I agree. "We are going to negotiate a better deal than the Tories that respects workers rights..."
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
Are you misreading the chart? The yellow spot is on the left size of the zero mark for the Suez Crisis, Great Depression and Cuban Missile Crisis as well as WWI/WWII.
Younger people will not remember what it was like at the time of Suez etc..
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I agree. They are a party within a party. The problem is that a lot of Tory activists share their views in the same way as many Labour activists share the views of Momentum. Like a festering old cup of tea, British political activism has become a concentrated scum. A splintering realignment of British politics is well overdue, but sadly it is not going to happen, because most moderate people "don't do politics".
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
Leavers don't think it is as serious an issue as Remainers do. I agree some will be additionally demotivated by having a second referendum making the differential turnout even greater.
I posted it for betting purposes rather a comment on ethics.
I'm suddenly seeing the virtues of Esther McVey for leader.
Have you just bet on her?
You know me too well ! I think she'd be better than Boris, Raab and Davis in all fairness too.
#Esther4Leader would be a true heir to Thatcher.
The sort of swivel-eyed loon that I would strongly welcome as next Tory leader.
Was Thatcher a swivel-eyed loon in your view then?
Mrs Thatcher was arguably the luckiest prime minister in British history, whatever you think of her politics. Quite independently of government, the 1980s gave us enormous technological advances and a magic money tree.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
Indeed - it's only a protectionist trading cartel for goodness sake. Not a war where people die.
The nation , fuelled by a demented media, has lost the plot.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
With all due respect it is May who is playing chicken with Parliament over ‘No Deal’. It is her who is running down the clock.
Exactly ,May marches her useful idiots up to the top of the hill, then makes them look plain stupid. What a boss to work for, changes her mind from one hour to the next.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I have three children who are starting to make their way in the world. I worry a great deal about them if our politicians land us in a mess for, as far as I can see, no very good reason.
And I fear a Corbyn government. Corbyn and his close advisors are politicians whose default instincts are not democratic or liberal and whose moral judgment is seriously flawed. Such people can do great harm to a country and to the values I care about. They have done great damage to the Labour party, a party I used to vote for. People like them have damaged other countries where they have obtained power. I don’t want this to happen to the country I live in, the country I care for, the country where my children are trying to make their future.
Compounding this by landing us in a No Deal Brexit for which we are unprepared in a world where the long-standing post-war setllement is under strain and at risk of fracturing and where some of our potential leaders seem to think they should be on the side of those doing the fracturing is utterly foolish. That is what some Tories - and the ERG in particular - are doing for not better reason than an utterly irrational hatred of the EU.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Interesting that controlling EU immigration only just makes it into to the top five 'most important Brexit outcomes' for Leavers and is not in the top five for voters overall.
Have attitudes changed since the infamous BES Leaver wordmap or are Ashcroft's respondents being circumspect?
Edit: Forgetting Brexit for a moment, the survey provides a good insight into how people view the relative seriousness of the crises of the past 100 years.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
Are you misreading the chart? The yellow spot is on the left size of the zero mark for the Suez Crisis, Great Depression and Cuban Missile Crisis as well as WWI/WWII.
My comment about WW1 and WW2 is misleading as it also applies to Suez etc as you point out. But my main point is that for all crises (except WW! and WW2) Remainers think Brexit is more serious than Leavers do (even if they think it is less serious than Suez etc). So my point about differential turnout still holds.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
Are you misreading the chart? The yellow spot is on the left size of the zero mark for the Suez Crisis, Great Depression and Cuban Missile Crisis as well as WWI/WWII.
Younger people will not remember what it was like at the time of Suez etc..
To actually remember the Suez era, you'd have to about 70. It's fair to say most respondents are reliant on the history books for the comparison.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
Are you misreading the chart? The yellow spot is on the left size of the zero mark for the Suez Crisis, Great Depression and Cuban Missile Crisis as well as WWI/WWII.
Younger people will not remember what it was like at the time of Suez etc..
I thought that although a student I was going to be called up. An uncle, with 100% disability pension from his WWII wounds, sustained in Normandy was called up for a medical He took his artificial leg off and went to the medical on his crutches. There was, he reported, some very bad language about the documentation.
I have solar panels on my house here in London and they provide a nice tax free income as well as reducing my electricity bill quite considerably. In Cumbria they give us both electricity and hot water. We’ve had no problems with them at all. They should be much more widespread than they are.
Sorry to be something of a broken record, but what is the payback period on investment for both installations? (If you don't mind me asking)
I get the income for 25 years. I have already paid back the cost of installing the panels (after about 6 years) And that’s without taking the reduced electricity bills into account, which result from the panels and a lot of insulation I put in the house at the same time.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
This is the nonsense that is now being trotted out by hardline leavers, ie., that because they don't have their utopian scorched earth Brexit there has been some sort of reversal. There hasn't. TMay's Brexit is exactly what the 52% voted for because what Brexit actually was, was never made clear. The likes of Daniel Hannon and even Farage tried to convince us we could be like Norway. It was there "don't scare the horses" approach, which was an effective approach. It was only after the vote that they have attempted to make it very unlike Norway.
I'm suddenly seeing the virtues of Esther McVey for leader.
Have you just bet on her?
You know me too well ! I think she'd be better than Boris, Raab and Davis in all fairness too.
#Esther4Leader would be a true heir to Thatcher.
The sort of swivel-eyed loon that I would strongly welcome as next Tory leader.
Was Thatcher a swivel-eyed loon in your view then?
Mrs Thatcher was arguably the luckiest prime minister in British history, whatever you think of her politics. Quite independently of government, the 1980s gave us enormous technological advances and a magic money tree.
Could she have made the most of it if she had propped up failing legacy industries, though?
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I agree. They are a party within a party. The problem is that a lot of Tory activists share their views in the same way as many Labour activists share the views of Momentum. Like a festering old cup of tea, British political activism has become a concentrated scum. A splintering realignment of British politics is well overdue, but sadly it is not going to happen, because most moderate people "don't do politics".
Except we have just lived through two decades of centrism. The Cameroons are Blairites and the Blairites are Cameroons, as we used to post.
If it wasn't for the collapsing pound the crumbling stock market and the national humiliation the vox pops on radio would make an interesting study....
'If a no deal is better than a bad deal lets go for a no deal because we've already got a bad deal'
.....and you know that the person offering this opinion hasn't the faintest idea what it means other than that it sounds clever.
.....Which just goes to show the selling potential of a well turned soundbite.
There are no good soundbites coming out of Labour though.
I agree. "We are going to negotiate a better deal than the Tories that respects workers rights..."
doesn't butter my parsnips
Can you get Parsnips in France? I thought they considered them to only be palatable to cattle and the like.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
This is the nonsense that is now being trotted out by hardline leavers, ie., that because they don't have their utopian scorched earth Brexit there has been some sort of reversal. There hasn't. TMay's Brexit is exactly what the 52% voted for because what Brexit actually was, was never made clear. The likes of Daniel Hannon and even Farage tried to convince us we could be like Norway. It was there "don't scare the horses" approach, which was an effective approach. It was only after the vote that they have attempted to make it very unlike Norway.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
Are you misreading the chart? The yellow spot is on the left size of the zero mark for the Suez Crisis, Great Depression and Cuban Missile Crisis as well as WWI/WWII.
My comment about WW1 and WW2 is misleading as it also applies to Suez etc as you point out. But my main point is that for all crises (except WW! and WW2) Remainers think Brexit is more serious than Leavers do (even if they think it is less serious than Suez etc). So my point about differential turnout still holds.
That's not a great revelation, though, is it? People who voted Leave are less likely to believe the apocalyptic predictions made by Remain campaigners.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
With all due respect it is May who is playing chicken with Parliament over ‘No Deal’. It is her who is running down the clock.
Yes it's clearly May that's taking us to the brink. She has several options open to her all of which she is completely ignoring.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I have three children who are starting to make their way in the world. I worry a great deal about them if our politicians land us in a mess for, as far as I can see, no very good reason.
And I fear a Corbyn government. Corbyn and his close advisors are politicians whose default instincts are not democratic or liberal and whose moral judgment is seriously flawed. Such people can do great harm to a country and to the values I care about. They have done great damage to the Labour party, a party I used to vote for. People like them have damaged other countries where they have obtained power. I don’t want this to happen to the country I live in, the country I care for, the country where my children are trying to make their future.
Compounding this by landing us in a No Deal Brexit for which we are unprepared in a world where the long-standing post-war setllement is under strain and at risk of fracturing and where some of our potential leaders seem to think they should be on the side of those doing the fracturing is utterly foolish. That is what some Tories - and the ERG in particular - are doing for not better reason than an utterly irrational hatred of the EU.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
If it wasn't for the collapsing pound the crumbling stock market and the national humiliation the vox pops on radio would make an interesting study....
'If a no deal is better than a bad deal lets go for a no deal because we've already got a bad deal'
.....and you know that the person offering this opinion hasn't the faintest idea what it means other than that it sounds clever.
.....Which just goes to show the selling potential of a well turned soundbite.
There are no good soundbites coming out of Labour though.
I agree. "We are going to negotiate a better deal than the Tories that respects workers rights..."
doesn't butter my parsnips
Can you get Parsnips in France? I thought they considered them to only be palatable to cattle and the like.
They're ok as roasted chips, but when they are boiled and mashed they are disgusting.
I'm suddenly seeing the virtues of Esther McVey for leader.
Have you just bet on her?
You know me too well ! I think she'd be better than Boris, Raab and Davis in all fairness too.
#Esther4Leader would be a true heir to Thatcher.
The sort of swivel-eyed loon that I would strongly welcome as next Tory leader.
Was Thatcher a swivel-eyed loon in your view then?
Mrs Thatcher was arguably the luckiest prime minister in British history, whatever you think of her politics. Quite independently of government, the 1980s gave us enormous technological advances and a magic money tree.
Could she have made the most of it if she had propped up failing legacy industries, though?
Maybe invested the oil windfall in infrastructure like the Norwegians did.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
This is the nonsense that is now being trotted out by hardline leavers, ie., that because they don't have their utopian scorched earth Brexit there has been some sort of reversal. There hasn't. TMay's Brexit is exactly what the 52% voted for because what Brexit actually was, was never made clear. The likes of Daniel Hannon and even Farage tried to convince us we could be like Norway. It was there "don't scare the horses" approach, which was an effective approach. It was only after the vote that they have attempted to make it very unlike Norway.
I'm not a "hardline Leaver". I would have been very happy with EEA. But I'm very much against Parliament nullifying the 2016 result either directly or by putting Remain back on the ballot paper.
The person who took Norway (pure Norway, not this nonsensical "Norway Plus") off the table was May.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
If it wasn't for the collapsing pound the crumbling stock market and the national humiliation the vox pops on radio would make an interesting study....
'If a no deal is better than a bad deal lets go for a no deal because we've already got a bad deal'
.....and you know that the person offering this opinion hasn't the faintest idea what it means other than that it sounds clever.
.....Which just goes to show the selling potential of a well turned soundbite.
There are no good soundbites coming out of Labour though.
I agree. "We are going to negotiate a better deal than the Tories that respects workers rights..."
doesn't butter my parsnips
Can you get Parsnips in France? I thought they considered them to only be palatable to cattle and the like.
They're ok as roasted chips, but when they are boiled and mashed they are disgusting.
mixed with carrots and turnip butter and cream theyre pretty nice.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
This is the nonsense that is now being trotted out by hardline leavers, ie., that because they don't have their utopian scorched earth Brexit there has been some sort of reversal. There hasn't. TMay's Brexit is exactly what the 52% voted for because what Brexit actually was, was never made clear. The likes of Daniel Hannon and even Farage tried to convince us we could be like Norway. It was there "don't scare the horses" approach, which was an effective approach. It was only after the vote that they have attempted to make it very unlike Norway.
Isn’t it nicer when you just make your points without wishing premature death on older people and calling white men with blood pressure ‘gammons’?
I have solar panels on my house here in London and they provide a nice tax free income as well as reducing my electricity bill quite considerably. In Cumbria they give us both electricity and hot water. We’ve had no problems with them at all. They should be much more widespread than they are.
What FIT and Generation Tariff rate do you get? It is very easy to reccomend them when your rate is x4 higher than what people now get. It changes the economics massively.
The use of excess electricity for hot water, as mentioned, provides a better return than the FIT, which vanishes in you don't get in before March anyway.
Ms Cyclefree: Not feverish. Bit of a cheek that you were accused of that from a man that constantly rants about "the Establishment", while supporting the Old Etonians Johnson and Rees-Mogg!
The "good reason" that these cretins and charlatans have landed us in this mess (and I include Corbyn in this) is that they are trying to advance their own warped world view that coincidently aligns with their own career advancement. Either that or they are just plain stupid (Corbyn a good candidate for that one)
If it wasn't for the collapsing pound the crumbling stock market and the national humiliation the vox pops on radio would make an interesting study....
'If a no deal is better than a bad deal lets go for a no deal because we've already got a bad deal'
.....and you know that the person offering this opinion hasn't the faintest idea what it means other than that it sounds clever.
.....Which just goes to show the selling potential of a well turned soundbite.
There are no good soundbites coming out of Labour though.
I agree. "We are going to negotiate a better deal than the Tories that respects workers rights..."
doesn't butter my parsnips
Can you get Parsnips in France? I thought they considered them to only be palatable to cattle and the like.
They're ok as roasted chips, but when they are boiled and mashed they are disgusting.
mixed with carrots and turnip butter and cream theyre pretty nice.
Not sure about the cream, but I'd give it a go. Mind I'll give almost any food a go if I see someone else eating it first.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
And then good luck getting their support for anything you propose in the future.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I have three children who are starting to make their way in the world. I worry a great deal about them if our politicians land us in a mess for, as far as I can see, no very good reason.
And I fear a Corbyn government. Corbyn and his close advisors are politicians whose default instincts are not democratic or liberal and whose moral judgment is seriously flawed. Such people can do great harm to a country and to the values I care about. They have done great damage to the Labour party, a party I used to vote for. People like them have damaged other countries where they have obtained power. I don’t want this to happen to the country I live in, the country I care for, the country where my children are trying to make their future.
Compounding this by landing us in a No Deal Brexit for which we are unprepared in a world where the long-standing post-war setllement is under strain and at risk of fracturing and where some of our potential leaders seem to think they should be on the side of those doing the fracturing is utterly foolish. That is what some Tories - and the ERG in particular - are doing for not better reason than an utterly irrational hatred of the EU.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and their friends which seems to think that they can ignore the GFA and the Troubles in order to pursue their purist view of Brexit in which Britain gets everything it wants and utterly ignores everyone else’s wishes. It was Rees-Mogg who made some utterly stupid statement about having a border like in the Troubles. For the love of God! People like him are making Britain a laughing stock.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I have three children who are starting to make their way in the world. I worry a great deal about them if our politicians land us in a mess for, as far as I can see, no very good reason.
And I fear a Corbyn government. Corbyn and his close advisors are politicians whose default instincts are not democratic or liberal and whose moral judgment is seriously flawed. Such people can do great harm to a country and to the values I care about. They have done great damage to the Labour party, a party I used to vote for. People like them have damaged other countries where they have obtained power. I don’t want this to happen to the country I live in, the country I care for, the country where my children are trying to make their future.
Compounding this by landing us in a No Deal Brexit for which we are unprepared in a world where the long-standing post-war setllement is under strain and at risk of fracturing and where some of our potential leaders seem to think they should be on the side of those doing the fracturing is utterly foolish. That is what some Tories - and the ERG in particular - are doing for not better reason than an utterly irrational hatred of the EU.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
We are the ones leaving. The ball is in our court. This wasn't their decision. If I buy a house from a seller we are on a level playing field. If I knock on the door of someone who isn't selling their house the ball is in my court to convince them why they should and they can say no to anything I offer and they are not being unreasonable to do so.
If it wasn't for the collapsing pound the crumbling stock market and the national humiliation the vox pops on radio would make an interesting study....
'If a no deal is better than a bad deal lets go for a no deal because we've already got a bad deal'
.....and you know that the person offering this opinion hasn't the faintest idea what it means other than that it sounds clever.
.....Which just goes to show the selling potential of a well turned soundbite.
There are no good soundbites coming out of Labour though.
I agree. "We are going to negotiate a better deal than the Tories that respects workers rights..."
doesn't butter my parsnips
Can you get Parsnips in France? I thought they considered them to only be palatable to cattle and the like.
They're ok as roasted chips, but when they are boiled and mashed they are disgusting.
mixed with carrots and turnip butter and cream theyre pretty nice.
Roasted parsnips are fine. Too sweet to mix with carrots, though - for that, turnips and nutmeg are the preferred option.
They're ok as roasted chips, but when they are boiled and mashed they are disgusting.
Parsnip Molly Parkin is absolutely delicious, either as an accompaniment to roast meat or sausages, or as a vegetarian dish in its own right. Here's a reasonable version of the recipe:
Skip the sugar, and reduce the cream. We use a strong cheddar cheese rather than Gruyere. The dish also warms up very well, so you can make quite a lot and eat the rest a couple of days later.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Interesting that controlling EU immigration only just makes it into to the top five 'most important Brexit outcomes' for Leavers and is not in the top five for voters overall.
Have attitudes changed since the infamous BES Leaver wordmap or are Ashcroft's respondents being circumspect?
Edit: Forgetting Brexit for a moment, the survey provides a good insight into how people view the relative seriousness of the crises of the past 100 years.
Immigration seems to dropping in saliance a bit across the West - factors being: * Fewer refugees, especially from Syrian (with a small timelag) * Better economy (with a bigger timelag) * Trump making anti-immigration unpopular outside his (mainly American) base, and pushing the centre/centre-left into actually making pro-immigration arguments more than they used to
Cameron seems to have picked pretty much the exact anti-immigrant peak for the referendum, although in fairness it can't have been obvious at the time that it wasn't just going to keep increasing.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form tt weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It wont be that,
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
And then good luck getting their support for anything you propose in the future.
Ms Cyclefree: Not feverish. Bit of a cheek that you were accused of that from a man that constantly rants about "the Establishment", while supporting the Old Etonians Johnson and Rees-Mogg!
The "good reason" that these cretins and charlatans have landed us in this mess (and I include Corbyn in this) is that they are trying to advance their own warped world view that coincidently aligns with their own career advancement. Either that or they are just plain stupid (Corbyn a good candidate for that one)
always interesting to hear views from the dog loviing community
They're ok as roasted chips, but when they are boiled and mashed they are disgusting.
Parsnip Molly Parkin is absolutely delicious, either as an accompaniment to roast meat or sausages, or as a vegetarian dish in its own right. Here's a reasonable version of the recipe:
Skip the sugar, and reduce the cream. We use a strong cheddar cheese rather than Gruyere. The dish also warms up very well, so you can make quite a lot and eat the rest a couple of days later.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I have three children who are starting to make their way in the world. I worry a great deal about them if our politicians land us in a mess for, as far as I can see, no very good reason.
And I fear a Corbyn government. Corbyn and his close advisors are politicians whose default instincts are not democratic or liberal and whose moral judgment is seriously flawed. Such people can do great harm to a country and to the values I care about. They have done great damage to the Labour party, a party I used to vote for. People like them have damaged other countries where they have obtained power. I don’t want this to happen to the country I live in, the country I care for, the country where my children are trying to make their future.
Compounding this by landing us in a No Deal Brexit for which we are unprepared in a world where the long-standing post-war setllement is under strain and at risk of fracturing and where some of our potential leaders seem to think they should be on the side of those doing the fracturing is utterly foolish. That is what some Tories - and the ERG in particular - are doing for not better reason than an utterly irrational hatred of the EU.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and their friends which seems to think that they can ignore the GFA and the Troubles in order to pursue their purist view of Brexit in which Britain gets everything it wants and utterly ignores everyone else’s wishes. It was Rees-Mogg who made some utterly stupid statement about having a border like in the Troubles. For the love of God! People like him are making Britain a laughing stock.
Trying to properly exit the EU doesn't make us a laughing stock.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
This is the nonsense that is now being trotted out by hardline leavers, ie., that because they don't have their utopian scorched earth Brexit there has been some sort of reversal. There hasn't. TMay's Brexit is exactly what the 52% voted for because what Brexit actually was, was never made clear. The likes of Daniel Hannon and even Farage tried to convince us we could be like Norway. It was there "don't scare the horses" approach, which was an effective approach. It was only after the vote that they have attempted to make it very unlike Norway.
Isn’t it nicer when you just make your points without wishing premature death on older people and calling white men with blood pressure ‘gammons’?
You are deliberately misquoting me. I have never wished premature death on older people (or anyone else) so don't be so pathetic. I have referred to gammons because I think it is an amusing and accurate description, and it has nothing to do with high blood pressure, except of the self-induced outrage variety, so again stop being silly. Faux outrage based on deliberate misunderstanding is clearly not just limited to those on the left!
I have solar panels on my house here in London and they provide a nice tax free income as well as reducing my electricity bill quite considerably. In Cumbria they give us both electricity and hot water. We’ve had no problems with them at all. They should be much more widespread than they are.
What FIT and Generation Tariff rate do you get? It is very easy to reccomend them when your rate is x4 higher than what people now get. It changes the economics massively.
The use of excess electricity for hot water, as mentioned, provides a better return than the FIT, which vanishes in you don't get in before March anyway.
I get the old very favourable FIT rate before the government started reducing it. Managed to get my panels installed just in time!
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form tt weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It wont be that,
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
AIUI all Remain (or Stay) want is to stay in the EU and help in it's democratisation.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I have three children who are starting to make their way in the world. I worry a great deal about them if our politicians land us in a mess for, as far as I can see, no very good reason.
And I fear a Corbyn government. Corbyn and his close advisors are politicians whose default instincts are not democratic or liberal and whose moral judgment is seriously flawed. Such people can do great harm to a country and to the values I care about. They have done great damage to the Labour party, a party I used to vote for. People like them have damaged other countries where they have obtained power. I don’t want this to happen to the country I live in, the country I care for, the country where my children are trying to make their future.
Compounding this by landing us in a No Deal Brexit for which we are unprepared in a world where the long-standing post-war setllement is under strain and at risk of fracturing and where some of our potential leaders seem to think they should be on the side of those doing the fracturing is utterly foolish. That is what some Tories - and the ERG in particular - are doing for not better reason than an utterly irrational hatred of the EU.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and their friends which seems to think that they can ignore the GFA and the Troubles in order to pursue their purist view of Brexit in which Britain gets everything it wants and utterly ignores everyone else’s wishes. It was Rees-Mogg who made some utterly stupid statement about having a border like in the Troubles. For the love of God! People like him are making Britain a laughing stock.
for continentals britain or more particulaly england has always provided humour and vice versa
The article is complete garbage. It confuses the two-thirds majority to force a GE with the simple majority required for a vote of no confidence. The only person who is surprised that a confidence vote requires only a simple majority is the author of the article.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
This is the nonsense that is now being trotted out by hardline leavers, ie., that because they don't have their utopian scorched earth Brexit there has been some sort of reversal. There hasn't. TMay's Brexit is exactly what the 52% voted for because what Brexit actually was, was never made clear. The likes of Daniel Hannon and even Farage tried to convince us we could be like Norway. It was there "don't scare the horses" approach, which was an effective approach. It was only after the vote that they have attempted to make it very unlike Norway.
Isn’t it nicer when you just make your points without wishing premature death on older people and calling white men with blood pressure ‘gammons’?
I'm sure he's a troll of a frothing remainer.
His username is a cross between Nigel Farage and remain.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
And then good luck getting their support for anything you propose in the future.
Their choice. We are a democracy, after all.
Not if they refuse to implement a democratic vote we aren't.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form tt weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It wont be that,
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
AIUI all Remain (or Stay) want is to stay in the EU and help in it's democratisation.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I have three children who are starting to make their way in the world. I worry a great deal about them if our politicians land us in a mess for, as far as I can see, no very good reason.
And I fear a Corbyn government. Corbyn and his close advisors are politicians whose default instincts are not democratic or liberal and whose moral judgment is seriously flawed. Such people can do great harm to a country and to the values I care about. They have done great damage to the Labour party, a party I used to vote for. People like them have damaged other countries where they have obtained power. I don’t want this to happen to the country I live in, the country I care for, the country where my children are trying to make their future.
Compounding this by landing us in a No Deal Brexit for which we are unprepared in a world where the long-standing post-war setllement is under strain and at risk of fracturing and where some of our potential leaders seem to think they should be on the side of those doing the fracturing is utterly foolish. That is what some Tories - and the ERG in particular - are doing for not better reason than an utterly irrational hatred of the EU.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and their friends which seems to think that they can ignore the GFA and the Troubles in order to pursue their purist view of Brexit in which Britain gets everything it wants and utterly ignores everyone else’s wishes. It was Rees-Mogg who made some utterly stupid statement about having a border like in the Troubles. For the love of God! People like him are making Britain a laughing stock.
Trying to properly exit the EU doesn't make us a laughing stock.
It most definitely has. It is one of the most outrageous aspects to this whole charade. Political pigmies who claim to be patriots making their country look stupid and politically immature. Statesmen must be spinning in their graves.
I'm suddenly seeing the virtues of Esther McVey for leader.
Have you just bet on her?
You know me too well ! I think she'd be better than Boris, Raab and Davis in all fairness too.
#Esther4Leader would be a true heir to Thatcher.
The sort of swivel-eyed loon that I would strongly welcome as next Tory leader.
Was Thatcher a swivel-eyed loon in your view then?
Mrs Thatcher was arguably the luckiest prime minister in British history, whatever you think of her politics. Quite independently of government, the 1980s gave us enormous technological advances and a magic money tree.
Thatcher was a green evangelist, replacing coal with less polluting gas and oil to power our power stations but was not thanked by the left wing parties and it's still not recognised by them.
The Act, which was designed to make it harder for a government to call a snap general election, requires two thirds of MPs to back a vote of no confidence in a government before they can trigger a general election.
The 2/3 isn't for a vote of no confidence, it's a vote for a new election.
This sets a very high bar, which is partly why the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn is currently holding back from triggering such a vote despite the chaos inside May's government and the prime minister's waning authority.
That's not why he's not triggering a vote of no confidence, most likely he's not triggering a vote of no confidence either because he doesn't think he'd win it, or alternatively if he has some reason to think the DUP might jump, because it doesn't do any harm to watch the government stagger uselessly on for a while before they shoot it in the head.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form tt weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It wont be that,
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
AIUI all Remain (or Stay) want is to stay in the EU and help in it's democratisation.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form tt weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It wont be that,
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
AIUI all Remain (or Stay) want is to stay in the EU and help in it's democratisation.
and how are they going to do that ?
I'll freely admit there's one nasty hurdle; electing sensible people as MEP's instead of Farage and his crew of free-loaders.
If a confidence vote means her resigning but the Tories not having to leave government I’d have thought she’d be nailed on to lose.
It's a vote of confidence in the government, not the PM. But yes, losing it would not necessarily mean the Tories having to leave government, they'd have 14 days to put together a government under a different PM (or indeed under Theresa May) which would then have to win a second vote of confidence.
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
I think you focus too much on unimpressive personalities and not on structural political forces. Playing a full role in European integration is a viable national strategy, but Brexit isn't.
And I fear a Corbyn government. Corbyn and his close advisors are politicians whose default instincts are not democratic or liberal and whose moral judgment is seriously flawed. Such people can do great harm to a country and to the values I care about. They have done great damage to the Labour party, a party I used to vote for. People like them have damaged other countries where they have obtained power. I don’t want this to happen to the country I live in, the country I care for, the country where my children are trying to make their future.
Compounding this by landing us in a No Deal Brexit for which we are unprepared in a world where the long-standing post-war setllement is under strain and at risk of fracturing and where some of our potential leaders seem to think they should be on the side of those doing the fracturing is utterly foolish. That is what some Tories - and the ERG in particular - are doing for not better reason than an utterly irrational hatred of the EU.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and their friends which seems to think that they can ignore the GFA and the Troubles in order to pursue their purist view of Brexit in which Britain gets everything it wants and utterly ignores everyone else’s wishes. It was Rees-Mogg who made some utterly stupid statement about having a border like in the Troubles. For the love of God! People like him are making Britain a laughing stock.
Trying to properly exit the EU doesn't make us a laughing stock.
It does the way we are going about it. We are not behaving like a serious country but like a confused, entitled, ignorant and petulant teenager. We are in danger of trashing our own USP, of trashing the very qualities we will need if we are to make a go of it outside the EU, the very qualities which we could bring to the EU if we applied some thought rather than viewing Europe as some sort of enemy. We have no strategy which is why we are careering all over the place. It is pathetic and damaging.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form tt weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It wont be that,
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
AIUI all Remain (or Stay) want is to stay in the EU and help in it's democratisation.
and how are they going to do that ?
I'll freely admit there's one nasty hurdle; electing sensible people as MEP's instead of Farage and his crew of free-loaders.
Youre going all Brexity again. Farage isnt the problem.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
And then good luck getting their support for anything you propose in the future.
Their choice. We are a democracy, after all.
Not if they refuse to implement a democratic vote we aren't.
They = 650 individuals who can’t agree on how to implement the democratic vote. The ERG have a leave option on the table which they won’t accept, other Leave supporters will. What can a democracy do in such circumstances except ask the people again?
If a confidence vote means her resigning but the Tories not having to leave government I’d have thought she’d be nailed on to lose.
It's a vote of confidence in the government, not the PM. But yes, losing it would not necessarily mean the Tories having to leave government, they'd have 14 days to put together a government under a different PM (or indeed under Theresa May) which would then have to win a second vote of confidence.
Why are Labour running scared?
There's no way TMay wins a confidence vote.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form tt weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It wont be that,
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
AIUI all Remain (or Stay) want is to stay in the EU and help in it's democratisation.
and how are they going to do that ?
I'll freely admit there's one nasty hurdle; electing sensible people as MEP's instead of Farage and his crew of free-loaders.
As @Alanbrooke has pointed out, if we do stay in, at least there should be some fun in the EU Parliament.
If a confidence vote means her resigning but the Tories not having to leave government I’d have thought she’d be nailed on to lose.
Who are you thinking pulls the plug here? If it's the DUP then sure they could do it, and then let the Tories know which alternative leaders they considered acceptable and see if they wanted to support them as PM, but the Tories might not be impressed by the idea of the DUP choosing their PM for them.
If it's the Tories then they don't need to bring down the government to get rid of TMay, they just need to bring down TMay. But it doesn't currently seem like they want to do that, presumably because all the alternatives are worse, and the process of making the switch wastes time and looks terrible.
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
I think you focus too much on unimpressive personalities and not on structural political forces. Playing a full role in European integration is a viable national strategy, but Brexit isn't.
hmm once agin you let your partisan nature get in the way of common sense
both options are viable. Neither carry a working majority, There is no consensus in the UK,
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form tt weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It wont be that,
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
AIUI all Remain (or Stay) want is to stay in the EU and help in it's democratisation.
Is that attainable?
Almost by definition as the membership becomes larger and more disparate the only way to govern it becomes less democratic. The irreconcilable differences become larger, and by the (perceived?) suppression of those differences over time they become grievances which become causes and create ill will, tension and ultimately divergence in a peaceful or violent manner.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
If a confidence vote means her resigning but the Tories not having to leave government I’d have thought she’d be nailed on to lose.
It's a vote of confidence in the government, not the PM. But yes, losing it would not necessarily mean the Tories having to leave government, they'd have 14 days to put together a government under a different PM (or indeed under Theresa May) which would then have to win a second vote of confidence.
Why are Labour running scared?
There's no way TMay wins a confidence vote.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
Maybe not 30-40, but I would not be surprised if Conservative MPs refused to support the government in a VONC. They'd be ending their careers, but we're not dealing with very rational people.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
This is the nonsense that is now being trotted out by hardline leavers, ie., that because they don't have their utopian scorched earth Brexit there has been some sort of reversal. There hasn't. TMay's Brexit is exactly what the 52% voted for because what Brexit actually was, was never made clear. The likes of Daniel Hannon and even Farage tried to convince us we could be like Norway. It was there "don't scare the horses" approach, which was an effective approach. It was only after the vote that they have attempted to make it very unlike Norway.
Isn’t it nicer when you just make your points without wishing premature death on older people and calling white men with blood pressure ‘gammons’?
I'm sure he's a troll of a frothing remainer.
His username is a cross between Nigel Farage and remain.
Your intellect and observational power is as overwhelming as your wit.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
And then good luck getting their support for anything you propose in the future.
Their choice. We are a democracy, after all.
Not if they refuse to implement a democratic vote we aren't.
They = 650 individuals who can’t agree on how to implement the democratic vote. The ERG have a leave option on the table which they won’t accept, other Leave supporters will. What can a democracy do in such circumstances except ask the people again?
Parliament has two options on the table: accept the deal or leave with no deal. They don't need to ask the people to choose between these two.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form tt weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It wont be that,
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
AIUI all Remain (or Stay) want is to stay in the EU and help in it's democratisation.
and how are they going to do that ?
I'll freely admit there's one nasty hurdle; electing sensible people as MEP's instead of Farage and his crew of free-loaders.
As @Alanbrooke has pointed out, if we do stay in, at least there should be some fun in the EU Parliament.
Not really as they don't have any real power anyway. The commission decides everything and we can't vote them out.
100% of MEPs could want a less centralised EU and yet ever closer integration will continue regardless.
If a confidence vote means her resigning but the Tories not having to leave government I’d have thought she’d be nailed on to lose.
It's a vote of confidence in the government, not the PM. But yes, losing it would not necessarily mean the Tories having to leave government, they'd have 14 days to put together a government under a different PM (or indeed under Theresa May) which would then have to win a second vote of confidence.
Why are Labour running scared?
There's no way TMay wins a confidence vote.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
Maybe not 30-40, but I would not be surprised if Conservative MPs refused to support the government in a VONC. They'd be ending their careers, but we're not dealing with very rational people.
So, Corbyn ought to give it a try.
Are they ending their careers though? they think May is broken. They think there is a candidate in the Tory party that can turn things around.
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
I think you focus too much on unimpressive personalities and not on structural political forces. Playing a full role in European integration is a viable national strategy, but Brexit isn't.
hmm once agin you let your partisan nature get in the way of common sense
both options are viable. Neither carry a working majority, There is no consensus in the UK,
A UK-wide Brexit isn't viable for the reasons that Brexiteers all recoiling against now. You can have (meaningful) Brexit or the union, but not both.
And I fear a Corbyn government. Corbyn and his close advisors are politicians whose default instincts are not democratic or liberal and whose moral judgment is seriously flawed. Such people can do great harm to a country and to the values I care about. They have done great damage to the Labour party, a party I used to vote for. People like them have damaged other countries where they have obtained power. I don’t want this to happen to the country I live in, the country I care for, the country where my children are trying to make their future.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and their friends which seems to think that they can ignore the GFA and the Troubles in order to pursue their purist view of Brexit in which Britain gets everything it wants and utterly ignores everyone else’s wishes. It was Rees-Mogg who made some utterly stupid statement about having a border like in the Troubles. For the love of God! People like him are making Britain a laughing stock.
Trying to properly exit the EU doesn't make us a laughing stock.
It does the way we are going about it. We are not behaving like a serious country but like a confused, entitled, ignorant and petulant teenager. We are in danger of trashing our own USP, of trashing the very qualities we will need if we are to make a go of it outside the EU, the very qualities which we could bring to the EU if we applied some thought rather than viewing Europe as some sort of enemy. We have no strategy which is why we are careering all over the place. It is pathetic and damaging.
Well yes I agree.
But this is what happens when you have someone in charge who sees Brexit as a damage limitation exercise rather than an opportunity.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
And then good luck getting their support for anything you propose in the future.
Their choice. We are a democracy, after all.
Not if they refuse to implement a democratic vote we aren't.
They = 650 individuals who can’t agree on how to implement the democratic vote. The ERG have a leave option on the table which they won’t accept, other Leave supporters will. What can a democracy do in such circumstances except ask the people again?
Parliament has two options on the table: accept the deal or leave with no deal. They don't need to ask the people to choose between these two.
Parliament is answerable to the people. It can do as it wishes within that constraint.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
*if* May, or the next Tory PM, either explicitly, or fairly obviously, were angling for No Deal, I think a bloc of Tory remainers will resign the whip and VONC them.
But, I don't think it will come to that. May is just as terrified of no deal as the rest of the leavers. If it's the 28th March and No Deal is the only alternative, May will revoke A50 rather than let that happen.
(The mechanism by which May somehow carries on can kicking till 28th March is left as an exercise to the reader)
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
I think you focus too much on unimpressive personalities and not on structural political forces. Playing a full role in European integration is a viable national strategy, but Brexit isn't.
hmm once agin you let your partisan nature get in the way of common sense
both options are viable. Neither carry a working majority, There is no consensus in the UK,
A UK-wide Brexit isn't viable for the reasons that Brexiteers all recoiling against now. You can have (meaningful) Brexit or the union, but not both.
We could have a Brexit and a hard border in Ireland. It's Ireland and the EU that are making this inevitable by refusing to discuss any other solution for the border.
I'm suddenly seeing the virtues of Esther McVey for leader.
Have you just bet on her?
You know me too well ! I think she'd be better than Boris, Raab and Davis in all fairness too.
#Esther4Leader would be a true heir to Thatcher.
The sort of swivel-eyed loon that I would strongly welcome as next Tory leader.
Was Thatcher a swivel-eyed loon in your view then?
Mrs Thatcher was arguably the luckiest prime minister in British history, whatever you think of her politics. Quite independently of government, the 1980s gave us enormous technological advances and a magic money tree.
Thatcher was a green evangelist, replacing coal with less polluting gas and oil to power our power stations but was not thanked by the left wing parties and it's still not recognised by them.
Top trolling.
The idea that the dash for gas was driven by environmental considerations is laughable.
British coal was replaced by* imported coal as the fuel for power generation.
*I'm never sure whether 'by' or 'with' is the correct word to use here.
If a confidence vote means her resigning but the Tories not having to leave government I’d have thought she’d be nailed on to lose.
Who are you thinking pulls the plug here? If it's the DUP then sure they could do it, and then let the Tories know which alternative leaders they considered acceptable and see if they wanted to support them as PM, but the Tories might not be impressed by the idea of the DUP choosing their PM for them.
If it's the Tories then they don't need to bring down the government to get rid of TMay, they just need to bring down TMay. But it doesn't currently seem like they want to do that, presumably because all the alternatives are worse, and the process of making the switch wastes time and looks terrible.
I am assuming all opposition parties vote against the government. If a few Tory MPs do as well on the basis that it only means May going, but not the government, then that’s it.
I'm suddenly seeing the virtues of Esther McVey for leader.
Have you just bet on her?
You know me too well ! I think she'd be better than Boris, Raab and Davis in all fairness too.
#Esther4Leader would be a true heir to Thatcher.
The sort of swivel-eyed loon that I would strongly welcome as next Tory leader.
Was Thatcher a swivel-eyed loon in your view then?
Mrs Thatcher was arguably the luckiest prime minister in British history, whatever you think of her politics. Quite independently of government, the 1980s gave us enormous technological advances and a magic money tree.
Could she have made the most of it if she had propped up failing legacy industries, though?
Red Robbo was right that British Leyland needed investment not cuts. It might have been like Volkswagen today, though perhaps without the diesel scandal.
But my point is that even if Mrs Thatcher had done nothing at all, Britain would have been a far better place at the end of her term than at the beginning. In the 1980s, things just got better. International travel became affordable. Food became more exotic and adventurous. Cars stopped rusting and luxury features like electric windows trickled down to basic models. Ambulance crews became paramedics; police became better trained and more specialised.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
And then good luck getting their support for anything you propose in the future.
Their choice. We are a democracy, after all.
Not if they refuse to implement a democratic vote we aren't.
They = 650 individuals who can’t agree on how to implement the democratic vote. The ERG have a leave option on the table which they won’t accept, other Leave supporters will. What can a democracy do in such circumstances except ask the people again?
Parliament has two options on the table: accept the deal or leave with no deal. They don't need to ask the people to choose between these two.
The default should have been no deal from the start.
The efforts of the last 2 years should have been to bolt on any bonus deal like elements to that decision in return for £39Bn.
We would be in a far better place now had we done so.
Comments
It's a view.
doesn't butter my parsnips
I posted it for betting purposes rather a comment on ethics.
The nation , fuelled by a demented media, has lost the plot.
What a boss to work for, changes her mind from one hour to the next.
And I fear a Corbyn government. Corbyn and his close advisors are politicians whose default instincts are not democratic or liberal and whose moral judgment is seriously flawed. Such people can do great harm to a country and to the values I care about. They have done great damage to the Labour party, a party I used to vote for. People like them have damaged other countries where they have obtained power. I don’t want this to happen to the country I live in, the country I care for, the country where my children are trying to make their future.
Compounding this by landing us in a No Deal Brexit for which we are unprepared in a world where the long-standing post-war setllement is under strain and at risk of fracturing and where some of our potential leaders seem to think they should be on the side of those doing the fracturing is utterly foolish. That is what some Tories - and the ERG in particular - are doing for not better reason than an utterly irrational hatred of the EU.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
Have attitudes changed since the infamous BES Leaver wordmap or are Ashcroft's respondents being circumspect?
Edit: Forgetting Brexit for a moment, the survey provides a good insight into how people view the relative seriousness of the crises of the past 100 years.
Apologist for apartheid.
"We are a grandmother"
Of course she was.
There was, he reported, some very bad language about the documentation.
Or something.
The person who took Norway (pure Norway, not this nonsensical "Norway Plus") off the table was May.
grovellingtravelling around the EU desperate for help, don't give the Clown Prince of Luxembourg any ideas......Isn’t it nicer when you just make your points without wishing premature death on older people and calling white men with blood pressure ‘gammons’?
The "good reason" that these cretins and charlatans have landed us in this mess (and I include Corbyn in this) is that they are trying to advance their own warped world view that coincidently aligns with their own career advancement. Either that or they are just plain stupid (Corbyn a good candidate for that one)
https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1072446164740571137?s=21
Too sweet to mix with carrots, though - for that, turnips and nutmeg are the preferred option.
https://suburbanlush.typepad.com/suburban_lush/2009/10/parsnips-molly-parkin.html
Skip the sugar, and reduce the cream. We use a strong cheddar cheese rather than Gruyere. The dish also warms up very well, so you can make quite a lot and eat the rest a couple of days later.
* Fewer refugees, especially from Syrian (with a small timelag)
* Better economy (with a bigger timelag)
* Trump making anti-immigration unpopular outside his (mainly American) base, and pushing the centre/centre-left into actually making pro-immigration arguments more than they used to
Cameron seems to have picked pretty much the exact anti-immigrant peak for the referendum, although in fairness it can't have been obvious at the time that it wasn't just going to keep increasing.
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
Almost long enough to defenestrate the Queen and appoint the Pretender (whoever that may be).
That additional time must make it tempting for several members of the PCP to become penfriends with Graham Brady.
His username is a cross between Nigel Farage and remain.
SNP: 37% (=)
LAB: 26% (+1)
CON: 26% (-2)
LDM: 6% (-1)
GRN: 2% (=)
UKIP: 2% (=)
There's no way TMay wins a confidence vote.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
If it's the Tories then they don't need to bring down the government to get rid of TMay, they just need to bring down TMay. But it doesn't currently seem like they want to do that, presumably because all the alternatives are worse, and the process of making the switch wastes time and looks terrible.
https://thehill.com/homenews/the-memo/420684-the-memo-ayers-decision-casts-harsh-light-on-trump
“You’re not becoming the chief of staff for the president of the United States,” one Republican operative told The Hill on Monday. “You’re becoming the chief of staff for Individual-1.”...
both options are viable. Neither carry a working majority, There is no consensus in the UK,
Almost by definition as the membership becomes larger and more disparate the only way to govern it becomes less democratic. The irreconcilable differences become larger, and by the (perceived?) suppression of those differences over time they become grievances which become causes and create ill will, tension and ultimately divergence in a peaceful or violent manner.
So, Corbyn ought to give it a try.
100% of MEPs could want a less centralised EU and yet ever closer integration will continue regardless.
Surely NOBODY, regardless of Brexityness, wants this humiliation to drag on over the season of goodwill?
But this is what happens when you have someone in charge who sees Brexit as a damage limitation exercise rather than an opportunity.
But, I don't think it will come to that. May is just as terrified of no deal as the rest of the leavers. If it's the 28th March and No Deal is the only alternative, May will revoke A50 rather than let that happen.
(The mechanism by which May somehow carries on can kicking till 28th March is left as an exercise to the reader)
The idea that the dash for gas was driven by environmental considerations is laughable.
British coal was replaced by* imported coal as the fuel for power generation.
*I'm never sure whether 'by' or 'with' is the correct word to use here.
But my point is that even if Mrs Thatcher had done nothing at all, Britain would have been a far better place at the end of her term than at the beginning. In the 1980s, things just got better. International travel became affordable. Food became more exotic and adventurous. Cars stopped rusting and luxury features like electric windows trickled down to basic models. Ambulance crews became paramedics; police became better trained and more specialised.
The efforts of the last 2 years should have been to bolt on any bonus deal like elements to that decision in return for £39Bn.
We would be in a far better place now had we done so.