Oh dear Mr Xenon, if you are going to comment on the EU system, please try and understand how it works. The power is with the Council of Ministers (the elected heads of government of the 27/28) . The Commission implements their wishes. Read the Daily Express a little less, and try and gain a little more understanding of the real world.
Compounding this by landing us in a No Deal Brexit for which we are unprepared in a world where the long-standing post-war setllement is under strain and at risk of fracturing and where some of our potential leaders seem to think they should be on the side of those doing the fracturing is utterly foolish. That is what some Tories - and the ERG in particular - are doing for not better reason than an utterly irrational hatred of the EU.
Too many politicians and commentators are viewing this as a game. But it isn’t. Peoples’ lives and futures matter and depend on what politicians do and don’t do. I saw how people close to me (both at he start and end of their lives) suffered when we had serious economic dislocation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and their friends which seems to think that they can ignore the GFA and the Troubles in order to pursue their purist view of Brexit in which Britain gets everything it wants and utterly ignores everyone else’s wishes. It was Rees-Mogg who made some utterly stupid statement about having a border like in the Troubles. For the love of God! People like him are making Britain a laughing stock.
for continentals britain or more particulaly england has always provided humour and vice versa
No - Britain was really looked up to by my Italian family. She was seen as a country which had avoided the worst excesses of the 20th century, which had done the right thing and showed courage and steadfastness and a sort of boring competence and normality. If her food was rubbish and her people unstylish and her weather a bit meh, never mind. There was a disappointment that Britain didn’t engage more fully. But Britain was admired. Maybe that’s an old-fashioned and romantic view. But it was real amongst my parents’s generation and shared to some extent by the next generation who also saw some excitement in England.
And now - we look mean-minded and pathetic and incompetent. Not eccentric but basically decent. But nasty and deluded.
If a confidence vote means her resigning but the Tories not having to leave government I’d have thought she’d be nailed on to lose.
It's a vote of confidence in the government, not the PM. But yes, losing it would not necessarily mean the Tories having to leave government, they'd have 14 days to put together a government under a different PM (or indeed under Theresa May) which would then have to win a second vote of confidence.
Why are Labour running scared?
There's no way TMay wins a confidence vote.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
Maybe not 30-40, but I would not be surprised if Conservative MPs refused to support the government in a VONC. They'd be ending their careers, but we're not dealing with very rational people.
So, Corbyn ought to give it a try.
Are they ending their careers though? they think May is broken. They think there is a candidate in the Tory party that can turn things around.
Yes. Confidence votes are effectively an implicit four-line whip. Vote against your party in a VONC, you're out of the party, persona non grata, for the rest of your political life. Literally the only people who would do that are those that have given up hope. But Tory remainers are full of spunk and vim at the moment.
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
I think you focus too much on unimpressive personalities and not on structural political forces. Playing a full role in European integration is a viable national strategy, but Brexit isn't.
hmm once agin you let your partisan nature get in the way of common sense
both options are viable. Neither carry a working majority, There is no consensus in the UK,
A UK-wide Brexit isn't viable for the reasons that Brexiteers all recoiling against now. You can have (meaningful) Brexit or the union, but not both.
Well thats your contention but as I say you simply are letting what you want determine what you post. Staying in will no more stop fragmentation of the UK than leaving will. Nationalists wont down tools just because of no Brexit.
I am assuming all opposition parties vote against the government. If a few Tory MPs do as well on the basis that it only means May going, but not the government, then that’s it.
Ah, OK. I don't think there will be a bunch of Tory MPs voting no confidence in their own government. Voting no-confidence in your own government is a "You had one job" moment for an MP, even if there's some cunning and devious plan behind it that may or may not work out.
Oh dear Mr Xenon, if you are going to comment on the EU system, please try and understand how it works. The power is with the Council of Ministers (the elected heads of government of the 27/28) . The Commission implements their wishes. Read the Daily Express a little less, and try and gain a little more understanding of the real world.
Oh right. So how come we're negotiating Brexit with the commission if it has no power? We can just completely ignore them.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
Yep they may be willing to sacrifice the country's economic well-being in support of their principles. But their own jobs? Nuh-huh.
Oh dear Mr Xenon, if you are going to comment on the EU system, please try and understand how it works. The power is with the Council of Ministers (the elected heads of government of the 27/28) . The Commission implements their wishes. Read the Daily Express a little less, and try and gain a little more understanding of the real world.
Oh right. So how come we're negotiating Brexit with the commission if it has no power? We can just completely ignore them.
The commission is the guardian of the treaties, and has the power of legislative initiative. However, it cannot *make* law, only draft it.
The commission is negotiating with the UK, under a negotiating strategy agreed with the EU27, but only the Council and the Parliament can make the negotiated agreement become union law.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
*if* May, or the next Tory PM, either explicitly, or fairly obviously, were angling for No Deal, I think a bloc of Tory remainers will resign the whip and VONC them.
But, I don't think it will come to that. May is just as terrified of no deal as the rest of the leavers. If it's the 28th March and No Deal is the only alternative, May will revoke A50 rather than let that happen.
(The mechanism by which May somehow carries on can kicking till 28th March is left as an exercise to the reader)
Yes, I think that's broadly right, although whether they'd use the nuclear option of a VONC in the government (with the attendant risk of a GE) is less clear. A GE in the middle of all this chaos wouldn't exactly help stabilise things.
As for the can-kicking, whilst it might be legally possible to keep kicking until the 28th March, further delay is going to cause more and more economic, political and administrative damage. It already beggars belief that with just 14 weeks to go we haven't a clue as how (or in some industries whether) we'll be able to trade with the EU.
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
I think you focus too much on unimpressive personalities and not on structural political forces. Playing a full role in European integration is a viable national strategy
Except that the British people haven't been asked if they consent to it. To solve that you would have to have a referendum, probably "Join the Euro and Schengen" vs "Leave with no deal".
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
I think you focus too much on unimpressive personalities and not on structural political forces. Playing a full role in European integration is a viable national strategy, but Brexit isn't.
hmm once agin you let your partisan nature get in the way of common sense
both options are viable. Neither carry a working majority, There is no consensus in the UK,
A UK-wide Brexit isn't viable for the reasons that Brexiteers all recoiling against now. You can have (meaningful) Brexit or the union, but not both.
Well thats your contention but as I say you simply are letting what you want determine what you post. Staying in will no more stop fragmentation of the UK than leaving will. Nationalists wont down tools just because of no Brexit.
If we accept fragmentation of the UK as inevitable, surely it makes "Engexit" even less attractive? My suspicion is that England as a member state of the EU would be much more at home than it is at present via the UK.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form tt weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
It wont be that,
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
No doubt about that. It’s hard to see how either of the big parties recover from all this, while even the medium-term future of the Union is in serious doubt. But, as you say, for most people there are much more important things in life.
The default should have been no deal from the start.
The efforts of the last 2 years should have been to bolt on any bonus deal like elements to that decision in return for £39Bn.
We would be in a far better place now had we done so.
Everyone pre- and post-vote told us how easy and how many trade deals there would be. Are you saying that the country would have tolerated spending billions of pounds on preparations (and what exact preparations did you have in mind?) for something they were at the same time telling us would not happen?
That your assessment of how this old politics thing works?
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and t stock.
for continentals britain or more particulaly england has always provided humour and vice versa
No - Britain was really looked up to by my Italian family. She was seen as a country which had avoided the worst excesses of the 20th century, which had done the right thing and showed courage and steadfastness and a sort of boring competence and normality. If her food was rubbish and her people unstylish and her weather a bit meh, never mind. There was a disappointment that Britain didn’t engage more fully. But Britain was admired. Maybe that’s an old-fashioned and romantic view. But it was real amongst my parents’s generation and shared to some extent by the next generation who also saw some excitement in England.
And now - we look mean-minded and pathetic and incompetent. Not eccentric but basically decent. But nasty and deluded.
you might feel that but really were the same people weve always been a vote doesnt change much. Have my views on Italy changed because of Salvini or Berlusconi - no. france because of Macron is still pretty much the mass of contradictions it has alweays been. Only two countries in my lifetime has tangibly changed the Republic of Ireland and Germany.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
I don't think people appreciate the absolubtely colossal difference in scale between expressing no confidence in the current PM (A seemingly minor thing in the Tories) and being prepared to no confidence your own government. Any Tory willing to do it would surely resign the whip before the vote. Even then it is a leap (I wouldn't expect O'Mara to VONC a Corbyn led Gov't).
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
Yep they may be willing to sacrifice the country's economic well-being in support of their principles. But their own jobs? Nuh-huh.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and their friends which seems to think that they can ignore the GFA and the Troubles in order to pursue their purist view of Brexit in which Britain gets everything it wants and utterly ignores everyone else’s wishes. It was Rees-Mogg who made some utterly stupid statement about having a border like in the Troubles. For the love of God! People like him are making Britain a laughing stock.
JRM is a muppet but so too are Soubry and Juncker and for what it's worth in my opinion Varadkar.
Varadkar and the EU seem to want to ignore one half of the GFA and the Troubles in order to pursue their purist view of Brexit in which Ireland gets everything it wants and utterly ignored our wishes.
The simplest solution that would work is to replace the backstop with a pledge by both parties to try to avoid a hard border then sign the deal as is minus the backstop. That guarantees no hard border at least until end of transition period and kicks the can down the road.
The SNP have underperformed their poll ratings at recent elections. I will be surprise if they manage better than circa 33% at the next Westminster election.
If a confidence vote means her resigning but the Tories not having to leave government I’d have thought she’d be nailed on to lose.
It's a vote of confidence in the government, not the PM. But yes, losing it would not necessarily mean the Tories having to leave government, they'd have 14 days to put together a government under a different PM (or indeed under Theresa May) which would then have to win a second vote of confidence.
Why are Labour running scared?
There's no way TMay wins a confidence vote.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
Maybe not 30-40, but I would not be surprised if Conservative MPs refused to support the government in a VONC. They'd be ending their careers, but we're not dealing with very rational people.
So, Corbyn ought to give it a try.
Are they ending their careers though? they think May is broken. They think there is a candidate in the Tory party that can turn things around.
If any conservative voted against the party in a vnoc in the government they would be instantly deselected for any future election
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and t stock.
for continentals britain or more particulaly england has always provided humour and vice versa
No - Britain was really looked up to by my Italian family. She was seen as a country which had avoided the worst excesses of the 20th century, which had done the right thing and showed courage and steadfastness and a sort of boring competence and normality. If her food was rubbish and her people unstylish and her weather a bit meh, never mind. There was a disappointment that Britain didn’t engage more fully. But Britain was admired. Maybe that’s an old-fashioned and romantic view. But it was real amongst my parents’s generation and shared to some extent by the next generation who also saw some excitement in England.
And now - we look mean-minded and pathetic and incompetent. Not eccentric but basically decent. But nasty and deluded.
you might feel that but really were the same people weve always been a vote doesnt change much. Have my views on Italy changed because of Salvini or Berlusconi - no. france because of Macron is still pretty much the mass of contradictions it has alweays been. Only two countries in my lifetime has tangibly changed the Republic of Ireland and Germany.
Over 3,500 people were being treated for leprosy in Spain in 1978! I know you’re a young man, but both the Iberian countries are almost totally unrecognisable to what they were when Mull of Kintyre was Number One in the charts.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
Yep they may be willing to sacrifice the country's economic well-being in support of their principles. But their own jobs? Nuh-huh.
Thats no different than you is it ?
Depends, Al - not wanting to pull the true patriot card, but I have AAMOF been in jobs whereby I would have sacrificed a lot more than my job for my principles.
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
I think you focus too much on unimpressive personalities and not on structural political forces. Playing a full role in European integration is a viable national strategy, but Brexit isn't.
hmm once agin you let your partisan nature get in the way of common sense
both options are viable. Neither carry a working majority, There is no consensus in the UK,
A UK-wide Brexit isn't viable for the reasons that Brexiteers all recoiling against now. You can have (meaningful) Brexit or the union, but not both.
Well thats your contention but as I say you simply are letting what you want determine what you post. Staying in will no more stop fragmentation of the UK than leaving will. Nationalists wont down tools just because of no Brexit.
If we accept fragmentation of the UK as inevitable, surely it makes "Engexit" even less attractive? My suspicion is that England as a member state of the EU would be much more at home than it is at present via the UK.
When we get to the point of saying a policy is inevitable were heading in to agitprop not politics. If you remove Scotland and NI then the England Wales split is even more anti EU and Ive yet to see a UK political party capable of convincing a curmudgeonly electorate that the EU is to their benefit.
As Ive pointed out Remain has no more a strategy for the nation that Leave has, Politics is potentially on the edge of a significant shift.
I think you focus too much on unimpressive personalities and not on structural political forces. Playing a full role in European integration is a viable national strategy, but Brexit isn't.
hmm once agin you let your partisan nature get in the way of common sense
both options are viable. Neither carry a working majority, There is no consensus in the UK,
A UK-wide Brexit isn't viable for the reasons that Brexiteers all recoiling against now. You can have (meaningful) Brexit or the union, but not both.
Well thats your contention but as I say you simply are letting what you want determine what you post. Staying in will no more stop fragmentation of the UK than leaving will. Nationalists wont down tools just because of no Brexit.
If we accept fragmentation of the UK as inevitable,
If Brexit is this painful - you aint seen nothing yet re Scotxit...
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
And then good luck getting their support for anything you propose in the future.
Their choice. We are a democracy, after all.
Not if they refuse to implement a democratic vote we aren't.
They = 650 individuals who can’t agree on how to implement the democratic vote. The ERG have a leave option on the table which they won’t accept, other Leave supporters will. What can a democracy do in such circumstances except ask the people again?
Parliament has two options on the table: accept the deal or leave with no deal. They don't need to ask the people to choose between these two.
Parliament is answerable to the people. It can do as it wishes within that constraint.
Yes, and the people have been clear both in a national referendum (52%) and a subsequent general election (85%) what they expect.
Labours only chance of winning a VONC is for Mrs May's deal to pass and they gain the DUP.
The ERG won't be joining them in the lobby even in that circumstance.
That's the irony of the situation. Passing the Deal might be the last thing this Government does. IF the DUP support a Vote of No Confidence, the motion is likely to have enough support to pass even if (as you would suspect) every Conservative MP (plus those outside the Whip) opposes.
The dilemma is therefore this - either the Deal falls and the Government survives or the Deal passes and the Government falls.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
I don't think people appreciate the absolubtely colossal difference in scale between expressing no confidence in the current PM (A seemingly minor thing in the Tories) and being prepared to no confidence your own government. Any Tory willing to do it would surely resign the whip before the vote.
That isn't unthinkable in the case of Soubry, Allen or Wollaston.
Allen would almost certainly retain her seat as a Lib Dem. Wollaston would have a fighting chance (2015/2017 were terrible for the Lib Dems in Totnes as most places, but before that it was a marginal). Soubry wouldn't, but I suspect she might not care, and the Lib Dems could potentially find her a winnable marginal in any case.
Labours only chance of winning a VONC is for Mrs May's deal to pass and they gain the DUP.
The ERG won't be joining them in the lobby even in that circumstance.
That's the irony of the situation. Passing the Deal might be the last thing this Government does. IF the DUP support a Vote of No Confidence, the motion is likely to have enough support to pass even if (as you would suspect) every Conservative MP (plus those outside the Whip) opposes.
The dilemma is therefore this - either the Deal falls and the Government survives or the Deal passes and the Government falls.
Pass the deal, and have an election, would be my preference.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
And then good luck getting their support for anything you propose in the future.
Their choice. We are a democracy, after all.
Not if they refuse to implement a democratic vote we aren't.
They = 650 individuals who can’t agree on how to implement the democratic vote. The ERG have a leave option on the table which they won’t accept, other Leave supporters will. What can a democracy do in such circumstances except ask the people again?
Parliament has two options on the table: accept the deal or leave with no deal. They don't need to ask the people to choose between these two.
Parliament is answerable to the people. It can do as it wishes within that constraint.
Yes, and the people have been clear both in a national referendum (52%) and a subsequent general election (85%) what they expect.
Did they vote for the Labour or Tory Brexit? They’re getting neither.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and t stock.
for continentals britain or more particulaly england has always provided humour and vice versa
No - Britain was really looked up to by my Italian family. She was seen as a country which had avoided the worst excesses of the 20th century, which had done the right thing and showed courage and steadfastness and a sort of boring competence and normality. If her food was rubbish and her people unstylish and her weather a bit meh, never mind. There was a disappointment that Britain didn’t engage more fully. But Britain was admired. Maybe that’s an old-fashioned and romantic view. But it was real amongst my parents’s generation and shared to some extent by the next generation who also saw some excitement in England.
And now - we look mean-minded and pathetic and incompetent. Not eccentric but basically decent. But nasty and deluded.
you might feel that but really were the same people weve always been a vote doesnt change much. Have my views on Italy changed because of Salvini or Berlusconi - no. france because of Macron is still pretty much the mass of contradictions it has alweays been. Only two countries in my lifetime has tangibly changed the Republic of Ireland and Germany.
Over 3,500 people were being treated for leprosy in Spain in 1978! I know you’re a young man, but both the Iberian countries are almost totally unrecognisable to what they were when Mull of Kintyre was Number One in the charts.
While I don't know about the health figures, Portugal has changed considerably, too. And, of course, anywhere which once was behind the Iron Curtain
If Brexit is this painful - you aint seen nothing yet re Scotxit...
Brexit has put back Nicla's cause by 20 years.
I was thinking much the same a day or so ago. If Brexit is this difficult, then surely breaking up the UK will be at least an order of magnitude more complicated. The ties are simply far deeper and broader, and go back centuries not decades.
The default should have been no deal from the start.
The efforts of the last 2 years should have been to bolt on any bonus deal like elements to that decision in return for £39Bn.
We would be in a far better place now had we done so.
Everyone pre- and post-vote told us how easy and how many trade deals there would be. Are you saying that the country would have tolerated spending billions of pounds on preparations (and what exact preparations did you have in mind?) for something they were at the same time telling us would not happen?
That your assessment of how this old politics thing works?
Anyone who said that was clearly wrong.
I thought the EU would be easier to negotiate with because I didn't realise how petty and vindictive they would be. I think even remainers were shocked at how unreasonable they were (although of course they were egging them on saying we deserved it like self-flagellating weirdos).
But after they refused to even open talks until we triggered Article 50 and paid them £39bn it was obvious then and our negotiating strategy had to change.
But May just blundered along capitulating on absolutely everything and here we are.
No - Britain was really looked up to by my Italian family. She was seen as a country which had avoided the worst excesses of the 20th century, which had done the right thing and showed courage and steadfastness and a sort of boring competence and normality. If her food was rubbish and her people unstylish and her weather a bit meh, never mind. There was a disappointment that Britain didn’t engage more fully. But Britain was admired. Maybe that’s an old-fashioned and romantic view. But it was real amongst my parents’s generation and shared to some extent by the next generation who also saw some excitement in England.
And now - we look mean-minded and pathetic and incompetent. Not eccentric but basically decent. But nasty and deluded.
I am afraid those are your projections based on your delusions not those of the rest of Europe. In the last fortnight I have spoken with Dutch, Norwegians, French, Germans and Italians and in every single case the overwhelming comment has been to ask why there is a chance we might not leave when we voted to Leave. And again this has, in every case, been accompanied by a comment about politicians not wanting to do what the people asked.
I am afraid the only people bring viewed as nasty and deluded by the Europeans I talk to are this trying to stop Brexit.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
Yep they may be willing to sacrifice the country's economic well-being in support of their principles. But their own jobs? Nuh-huh.
Thats no different than you is it ?
Depends, Al - not wanting to pull the true patriot card, but I have AAMOF been in jobs whereby I would have sacrificed a lot more than my job for my principles.
well me too, and wasnt even my job. When your dads in the RUC turning the ignition has a few more connotations.
However my point was more about people voting for whaqts in their interest. As I see it Remainers worry about their jobs and income outside th EU and feel they are at risk. This is simply however what a lot of the english regions have gone though already. and why they voted Leave. They can see no change to their propsects within the EU and have reached the fuck it stage where you might as well bet on a shake up as it gives you a chance.
Here in the boondocks thats how things look. Youre voting for what you perceive to be your intere3sts and we are voting for ours. Currently nobody is looking at how youbalance both sides interests,
Lord Ashcroft's polling on the deal is pretty damning:
May's campaign to selll the deal has only turned the UK even further against the deal. Now a majority of Tories think remain is a better choice then her deal.
The default should have been no deal from the start.
The efforts of the last 2 years should have been to bolt on any bonus deal like elements to that decision in return for £39Bn.
We would be in a far better place now had we done so.
Everyone pre- and post-vote told us how easy and how many trade deals there would be. Are you saying that the country would have tolerated spending billions of pounds on preparations (and what exact preparations did you have in mind?) for something they were at the same time telling us would not happen?
That your assessment of how this old politics thing works?
Anyone who said that was clearly wrong.
I thought the EU would be easier to negotiate with because I didn't realise how petty and vindictive they would be. I think even remainers were shocked at how unreasonable they were (although of course they were egging them on saying we deserved it like self-flagellating weirdos).
But after they refused to even open talks until we triggered Article 50 and paid them £39bn it was obvious then and our negotiating strategy had to change.
But May just blundered along capitulating on absolutely everything and here we are.
'Anyone who said that was clearly wrong.'
DD, Bojo, Liam Fox, Farage...... that do for starters?
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and t stock.
for continentals britain or more particulaly england has always provided humour and vice versa
No - Britain was really looked up to by my Italian family. She was seen as a country which had avoided the worst excesses of the 20th century, which had done the right thing and showed courage and steadfastness and a sort of boring competence and normality. If her food was rubbish and her people unstylish and her weather a bit meh, never mind. There was a disappointment that Britain didn’t engage more fully. But Britain was admired. Maybe that’s an old-fashioned and romantic view. But it was real amongst my parents’s generation and shared to some extent by the next generation who also saw some excitement in England.
And now - we look mean-minded and pathetic and incompetent. Not eccentric but basically decent. But nasty and deluded.
you might feel that but really were the same people weve always been a vote doesnt change much. Have my views on Italy changed because of Salvini or Berlusconi - no. france because of Macron is still pretty much the mass of contradictions it has alweays been. Only two countries in my lifetime has tangibly changed the Republic of Ireland and Germany.
Over 3,500 people were being treated for leprosy in Spain in 1978! I know you’re a young man, but both the Iberian countries are almost totally unrecognisable to what they were when Mull of Kintyre was Number One in the charts.
Leprosy hasn't vanished here:
"Up to 129 cases [of leprosy] were reported in England and Wales between 2001 and 2010 and family doctors are being urged to be on the lookout for the contagious disease over fears many cases go undetected."
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
personally I feel remarkably relaxed about the whole thing. If you stand back and clear your head you soon realise there are nucj more important things in life.
So a shrug of the shoulders and an oh well then if we end up Remaining? It’s a healthy attitude that I suspect many share.
And then good luck getting their support for anything you propose in the future.
Their choice. We are a democracy, after all.
Not if they refuse to implement a democratic vote we aren't.
They = 650 individuals who can’t agree on how to implement the democratic vote. The ERG have a leave option on the table which they won’t accept, other Leave supporters will. What can a democracy do in such circumstances except ask the people again?
Parliament has two options on the table: accept the deal or leave with no deal. They don't need to ask the people to choose between these two.
The default should have been no deal from the start.
The efforts of the last 2 years should have been to bolt on any bonus deal like elements to that decision in return for £39Bn.
We would be in a far better place now had we done so.
It was, but the government refused to act accordingly.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and t stock.
for continentals britain or more particulaly england has always provided humour and vice versa
No - Britain was really looked up to by my Italian family. She was seen as a country which had avoided the worst excesses of the 20th century, which had done the right thing and showed courage and steadfastness and a sort of boring competence and normality. If her food was rubbish and her people unstylish and her weather a bit meh, never mind. There was a disappointment that Britain didn’t engage more fully. But Britain was admired. Maybe that’s an old-fashioned and romantic view. But it was real amongst my parents’s generation and shared to some extent by the next generation who also saw some excitement in England.
And now - we look mean-minded and pathetic and incompetent. Not eccentric but basically decent. But nasty and deluded.
you might feel that but really were the same people weve always been a vote doesnt change much. Have my views on Italy changed because of Salvini or Berlusconi - no. france because of Macron is still pretty much the mass of contradictions it has alweays been. Only two countries in my lifetime has tangibly changed the Republic of Ireland and Germany.
Over 3,500 people were being treated for leprosy in Spain in 1978! I know you’re a young man, but both the Iberian countries are almost totally unrecognisable to what they were when Mull of Kintyre was Number One in the charts.
fair point but thats modernisation
have the cultural aspects changed much ? Spain still seems a overly proud prickly place which likes to push its minorities around. How do you think that has move on since Franco ?
have the cultural aspects changed much ? Spain still seems a overly proud prickly place which likes to push its minorities around. How do you think that has move on since Franco ?
Everyone pre- and post-vote told us how easy and how many trade deals would be.
If we've learned anything at all, it's that Brexiteers have no idea whatsoever how international trade works.
Trying to think of a comparison, kind of thought of cloud computing. What you do is you essentially outsource the grunt of your IT services. You no longer maintain your independent email server and file server. When you do the sums, it offers quite a lot of savings, not all of them are immediately cashable. But it makes sense. However, someone points out that this is largely a one way process. Once you’ve done it, you’ll lose the capacity to do it for yourself, possibly forever, and even if the price is jacked up, it will still cost you more to get out and start up again. If you decide to try and reverse it, the longer you are part of the cloud, the more difficult it will be, and you’ll be starting afresh. Your staff will no longer have the skills to maintain their own infrastructure. Our scabby old exchange server can’t cope with what we all need and got used to.
We’ve essentially deskilled ourserlves by sub contracting out all our trade negotiations for forty years. It looked easy when we saw it all done on our behalf. We are going to have to learn them again, or opt back into the cloud comfort of the customs union.
Lord Ashcroft's polling on the deal is pretty damning:
May's campaign to selll the deal has only turned the UK even further against the deal. Now a majority of Tories think remain is a better choice then her deal.
That is one mighty buffet of shit, Theresa. Impressive.
Odd poll. It has Khan winning on the first round which not even Ken in his prime did. I wonder if it's just Bailey's low name recognition at the moment ?
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
Yep they may be willing to sacrifice the country's economic well-being in support of their principles. But their own jobs? Nuh-huh.
Thats no different than you is it ?
Depends, Al - not wanting to pull the true patriot card, but I have AAMOF been in jobs whereby I would have sacrificed a lot more than my job for my principles.
well me too, and wasnt even my job. When your dads in the RUC turning the ignition has a few more connotations.
However my point was more about people voting for whaqts in their interest. As I see it Remainers worry about their jobs and income outside th EU and feel they are at risk. This is simply however what a lot of the english regions have gone though already. and why they voted Leave. They can see no change to their propsects within the EU and have reached the fuck it stage where you might as well bet on a shake up as it gives you a chance.
Here in the boondocks thats how things look. Youre voting for what you perceive to be your intere3sts and we are voting for ours. Currently nobody is looking at how youbalance both sides interests,
Don't disagree with that at all. But my point referred to the Steve Bakers of this world. They are a million miles away from people such as us.
And as for your father, and your family, well we lot always found it an example of the most extraordinary courage. I trained with Norman Duddy's son and am very aware of the dangers you all faced.
Maybe Labour can win a VONC then ... ! I wouldn't be happy with her if I was her constituency chairperson right now.
She’s there as a supporter of another referendum.
She’s made it quite clear she’ll back the government in a VONC and how awful Corbyn is.
I guess it is one of those classic picture not quite matching the caption moments. Still Soubry should take care that she is not becoming associated with a general anti-Tory movement here.
The default should have been no deal from the start.
The efforts of the last 2 years should have been to bolt on any bonus deal like elements to that decision in return for £39Bn.
We would be in a far better place now had we done so.
Everyone pre- and post-vote told us how easy and how many trade deals there would be. Are you saying that the country would have tolerated spending billions of pounds on preparations (and what exact preparations did you have in mind?) for something they were at the same time telling us would not happen?
That your assessment of how this old politics thing works?
Anyone who said that was clearly wrong.
I thought the EU would be easier to negotiate with because I didn't realise how petty and vindictive they would be. I think even remainers were shocked at how unreasonable they were (although of course they were egging them on saying we deserved it like self-flagellating weirdos).
But after they refused to even open talks until we triggered Article 50 and paid them £39bn it was obvious then and our negotiating strategy had to change.
But May just blundered along capitulating on absolutely everything and here we are.
'Anyone who said that was clearly wrong.'
DD, Bojo, Liam Fox, Farage...... that do for starters?
Yes they were wrong...as was May.
I thought the EU would want a decent relationship with us after we left and would work with us in good faith in obtaining that outcome. It's not exactly unreasonable is it?
But of course they decided to show their true colours.
And remainers think this is a good argument for staying in the rotten organisation.
Odd poll. It has Khan winning on the first round which not even Ken in his prime did. I wonder if it's just Bailey's low name recognition at the moment ?
I have a hunch (Which I expanded on above the line) that Khan will show what a Labour party shorn of Corbyn could really do in London. I don't think the poll is wrong.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
They don't need any Tories. They only need to read the DUP choice sections of May's statement to the Commons yesterday (those bits where she says a backstop has to be part of any deal) and convince them that Labour would do better on the matter of the backstop - and that if the DUP don't help them bring down the government Labour will have no choice but to pivot to working with Tory rebels to bring about a second referendum.
Odd poll. It has Khan winning on the first round which not even Ken in his prime did. I wonder if it's just Bailey's low name recognition at the moment ?
I have a hunch (Which I expanded on above the line) that Khan will show what a Labour party shorn of Corbyn could really do in London. I don't think the poll is wrong.
Sadiq Khan very effectively personifies the outward-looking, inclusive, positive image that London would like to have of itself. He has also skilfully ridden the strong anti-Brexit wave that has crashed through London. Of course he's actively popular, especially against a little-known and leaden-footed opponent.
Lord Ashcroft's polling on the deal is pretty damning:
May's campaign to selll the deal has only turned the UK even further against the deal. Now a majority of Tories think remain is a better choice then her deal.
I do not want that happening to me and mine again. If that makes me feverish, well, too bad.
It takes two to tango. If there is a no deal Brexit then Ireland and the rest of the EU deserve half the blame and opprobrium for refusing to negotiate without the backstop. But I only see you blaming the ERG etc
I have criticised the EU. But it is the ERG and t stock.
for continentals britain or more particulaly england has always provided humour and vice versa
No - Britain was really looked up to by my Italian family. She was seen as a country which had avoided the worst excesses of the 20th century, which had done the right thing and showed courage and steadfastness and a sort of boring competence and normality. If her food was rubbish and her people unstylish and her weather a bit meh, never mind. There was a disappointment that Britain didn’t engage more fully. But Britain was admired. Maybe that’s an old-fashioned and romantic view. But it was real amongst my parents’s generation and shared to some extent by the next generation who also saw some excitement in England.
And now - we look mean-minded and pathetic and incompetent. Not eccentric but basically decent. But nasty and deluded.
you might feel that but really were the same people weve always been a vote doesnt change much. Have my views on Italy changed because of Salvini or Berlusconi - no. france because of Macron is still pretty much the mass of contradictions it has alweays been. Only two countries in my lifetime has tangibly changed the Republic of Ireland and Germany.
Over 3,500 people were being treated for leprosy in Spain in 1978! I know you’re a young man, but both the Iberian countries are almost totally unrecognisable to what they were when Mull of Kintyre was Number One in the charts.
fair point but thats modernisation
have the cultural aspects changed much ? Spain still seems a overly proud prickly place which likes to push its minorities around. How do you think that has move on since Franco ?
It’s changed immensely in just about every way imaginable. On a par with Ireland at a minimum, I’d say. It was a military dictatorship until 1975, of course, so has probably travelled even further.
The default should have been no deal from the start.
The efforts of the last 2 years should have been to bolt on any bonus deal like elements to that decision in return for £39Bn.
We would be in a far better place now had we done so.
Everyone pre- and post-vote told us how easy and how many trade deals there would be. Are you saying that the country would have tolerated spending billions of pounds on preparations (and what exact preparations did you have in mind?) for something they were at the same time telling us would not happen?
That your assessment of how this old politics thing works?
Anyone who said that was clearly wrong.
I thought the EU would be easier to negotiate with because I didn't realise how petty and vindictive they would be. I think even remainers were shocked at how unreasonable they were (although of course they were egging them on saying we deserved it like self-flagellating weirdos).
But after they refused to even open talks until we triggered Article 50 and paid them £39bn it was obvious then and our negotiating strategy had to change.
But May just blundered along capitulating on absolutely everything and here we are.
'Anyone who said that was clearly wrong.'
DD, Bojo, Liam Fox, Farage...... that do for starters?
Yes they were wrong...as was May.
I thought the EU would want a decent relationship with us after we left and would work with us in good faith in obtaining that outcome. It's not exactly unreasonable is it?
But of course they decided to show their true colours.
And remainers think this is a good argument for staying in the rotten organisation.
'I thought the EU would want a decent relationship with us after we left and would work with us in good faith in obtaining that outcome. It's not exactly unreasonable is it?'
Labours only chance of winning a VONC is for Mrs May's deal to pass and they gain the DUP.
The ERG won't be joining them in the lobby even in that circumstance.
That's the irony of the situation. Passing the Deal might be the last thing this Government does. IF the DUP support a Vote of No Confidence, the motion is likely to have enough support to pass even if (as you would suspect) every Conservative MP (plus those outside the Whip) opposes.
The dilemma is therefore this - either the Deal falls and the Government survives or the Deal passes and the Government falls.
It might survive but unable to do much if anything.
The default should have been no deal from the start.
The efforts of the last 2 years should have been to bolt on any bonus deal like elements to that decision in return for £39Bn.
We would be in a far better place now had we done so.
Everyone pre- and post-vote told us how easy and how many trade deals there would be. Are you saying that the country would have tolerated spending billions of pounds on preparations (and what exact preparations did you have in mind?) for something they were at the same time telling us would not happen?
That your assessment of how this old politics thing works?
Anyone who said that was clearly wrong.
I thought the EU would be easier to negotiate with because I didn't realise how petty and vindictive they would be. I think even remainers were shocked at how unreasonable they were (although of course they were egging them on saying we deserved it like self-flagellating weirdos).
But after they refused to even open talks until we triggered Article 50 and paid them £39bn it was obvious then and our negotiating strategy had to change.
But May just blundered along capitulating on absolutely everything and here we are.
'Anyone who said that was clearly wrong.'
DD, Bojo, Liam Fox, Farage...... that do for starters?
Yes they were wrong...as was May.
I thought the EU would want a decent relationship with us after we left and would work with us in good faith in obtaining that outcome. It's not exactly unreasonable is it?
But of course they decided to show their true colours.
And remainers think this is a good argument for staying in the rotten organisation.
'I thought the EU would want a decent relationship with us after we left and would work with us in good faith in obtaining that outcome. It's not exactly unreasonable is it?'
And your evidence for that statement is?
You want evidence for what I thought?
Or that the EU would want to have a good relationship with the UK after leaving?
I thought the EU would want a decent relationship with us after we left and would work with us in good faith in obtaining that outcome. It's not exactly unreasonable is it?
They did, while we screamed like petulant children the whole time
Armed Police are pinning someone to the ground just inside the gates to Parliament.
Is it Boris Johnson?
Don’t think so.
Earlier on this morning there was a Brexit supporter telling me that the EU is the source of all fornication and sodomy in the world and that’s why we should Leave.
There are, I would say, at least 30-40 Tories prepared bring down the government (roughly the same people who wrote to Brady). And a 0% chance more than three Labour MPs (or rather elected as Labour MPs) vote to sustain her.
I doubt whether any Tory MPs would vote to bring down the government, it would be the end of their careers and they don't want Corbyn or a GE.
Yep they may be willing to sacrifice the country's economic well-being in support of their principles. But their own jobs? Nuh-huh.
Thats no different than you is it ?
Depends, Al - not wanting to pull the true patriot card, but I have AAMOF been in jobs whereby I would have sacrificed a lot more than my job for my principles.
well me too, and wasnt even my job. When your dads in the RUC turning the ignition has a few more connotations.
However my point was more about people voting for whaqts in their interest. As I see it Remainers worry about their jobs and income outside th EU and feel they are at risk. This is simply however what a lot of the english regions have gone though already. and why they voted Leave. They can see no change to their propsects within the EU and have reached the fuck it stage where you might as well bet on a shake up as it gives you a chance.
Here in the boondocks thats how things look. Youre voting for what you perceive to be your intere3sts and we are voting for ours. Currently nobody is looking at how youbalance both sides interests,
Don't disagree with that at all. But my point referred to the Steve Bakers of this world. They are a million miles away from people such as us.
And as for your father, and your family, well we lot always found it an example of the most extraordinary courage. I trained with Norman Duddy's son and am very aware of the dangers you all faced.
Theyre simply the ultras, The problem with the Brexirt wrangle is every side is projecting the extremes as the norm, its all bollocks. Like most issues the truth is somewhere in the middle,
Armed Police are pinning someone to the ground just inside the gates to Parliament.
Is it Boris Johnson?
Don’t think so.
Earlier on this morning there was a Brexit supporter telling me that the EU is the source of all fornication and sodomy in the world and that’s why we should Leave.
Armed Police are pinning someone to the ground just inside the gates to Parliament.
Is it Boris Johnson?
Don’t think so.
Earlier on this morning there was a Brexit supporter telling me that the EU is the source of all fornication and sodomy in the world and that’s why we should Leave.
Armed Police are pinning someone to the ground just inside the gates to Parliament.
Is it Boris Johnson?
Don’t think so.
Earlier on this morning there was a Brexit supporter telling me that the EU is the source of all fornication and sodomy in the world and that’s why we should Leave.
Comments
And now - we look mean-minded and pathetic and incompetent. Not eccentric but basically decent. But nasty and deluded.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/2020-london-mayor-election-sadiq-khan-enters-race-with-commanding-lead-over-tory-shaun-bailey-a4013911.html
We can just completely ignore them.
The ERG won't be joining them in the lobby even in that circumstance.
The commission is negotiating with the UK, under a negotiating strategy agreed with the EU27, but only the Council and the Parliament can make the negotiated agreement become union law.
As for the can-kicking, whilst it might be legally possible to keep kicking until the 28th March, further delay is going to cause more and more economic, political and administrative damage. It already beggars belief that with just 14 weeks to go we haven't a clue as how (or in some industries whether) we'll be able to trade with the EU.
That your assessment of how this old politics thing works?
I don't think people appreciate the absolubtely colossal difference in scale between expressing no confidence in the current PM (A seemingly minor thing in the Tories) and being prepared to no confidence your own government.
Any Tory willing to do it would surely resign the whip before the vote. Even then it is a leap (I wouldn't expect O'Mara to VONC a Corbyn led Gov't).
Varadkar and the EU seem to want to ignore one half of the GFA and the Troubles in order to pursue their purist view of Brexit in which Ireland gets everything it wants and utterly ignored our wishes.
The simplest solution that would work is to replace the backstop with a pledge by both parties to try to avoid a hard border then sign the deal as is minus the backstop. That guarantees no hard border at least until end of transition period and kicks the can down the road.
Simply put where are the benefits ?
Brexit has put back Nicla's cause by 20 years.
https://twitter.com/MrTCHarris/status/1072399800233025536
The dilemma is therefore this - either the Deal falls and the Government survives or the Deal passes and the Government falls.
Allen would almost certainly retain her seat as a Lib Dem. Wollaston would have a fighting chance (2015/2017 were terrible for the Lib Dems in Totnes as most places, but before that it was a marginal). Soubry wouldn't, but I suspect she might not care, and the Lib Dems could potentially find her a winnable marginal in any case.
This is way way beyond a joke now. This is just about spending another few days in Downing Street.
I thought the EU would be easier to negotiate with because I didn't realise how petty and vindictive they would be. I think even remainers were shocked at how unreasonable they were (although of course they were egging them on saying we deserved it like self-flagellating weirdos).
But after they refused to even open talks until we triggered Article 50 and paid them £39bn it was obvious then and our negotiating strategy had to change.
But May just blundered along capitulating on absolutely everything and here we are.
I wouldn't be happy with her if I was her constituency chairperson right now.
I am afraid the only people bring viewed as nasty and deluded by the Europeans I talk to are this trying to stop Brexit.
However my point was more about people voting for whaqts in their interest. As I see it Remainers worry about their jobs and income outside th EU and feel they are at risk. This is simply however what a lot of the english regions have gone though already. and why they voted Leave. They can see no change to their propsects within the EU and have reached the fuck it stage where you might as well bet on a shake up as it gives you a chance.
Here in the boondocks thats how things look. Youre voting for what you perceive to be your intere3sts and we are voting for ours. Currently nobody is looking at how youbalance both sides interests,
May's campaign to selll the deal has only turned the UK even further against the deal. Now a majority of Tories think remain is a better choice then her deal.
She’s made it quite clear she’ll back the government in a VONC and how awful Corbyn is.
If that is what happens, remember she threw away a small but solid majority.
DD, Bojo, Liam Fox, Farage...... that do for starters?
"Up to 129 cases [of leprosy] were reported in England and Wales between 2001 and 2010 and family doctors are being urged to be on the lookout for the contagious disease over fears many cases go undetected."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10934366/Leprosy-is-still-present-in-Britain-and-often-misdiagnosed-say-experts.html
The government may choose (or be forced by some mechanism) to hold it before then.
have the cultural aspects changed much ? Spain still seems a overly proud prickly place which likes to push its minorities around. How do you think that has move on since Franco ?
However, someone points out that this is largely a one way process. Once you’ve done it, you’ll lose the capacity to do it for yourself, possibly forever, and even if the price is jacked up, it will still cost you more to get out and start up again. If you decide to try and reverse it, the longer you are part of the cloud, the more difficult it will be, and you’ll be starting afresh. Your staff will no longer have the skills to maintain their own infrastructure. Our scabby old exchange server can’t cope with what we all need and got used to.
We’ve essentially deskilled ourserlves by sub contracting out all our trade negotiations for forty years. It looked easy when we saw it all done on our behalf. We are going to have to learn them again, or opt back into the cloud comfort of the customs union.
And as for your father, and your family, well we lot always found it an example of the most extraordinary courage. I trained with Norman Duddy's son and am very aware of the dangers you all faced.
I thought the EU would want a decent relationship with us after we left and would work with us in good faith in obtaining that outcome. It's not exactly unreasonable is it?
But of course they decided to show their true colours.
And remainers think this is a good argument for staying in the rotten organisation.
Which led to much of today's shit show.
Respected - really? By who?
The original bbc tweet has been misinterpreted.
And your evidence for that statement is?
Or that the EU would want to have a good relationship with the UK after leaving?
It's a bit of a strange question.
Earlier on this morning there was a Brexit supporter telling me that the EU is the source of all fornication and sodomy in the world and that’s why we should Leave.
Theresa May is a traitor as well apparently.
Not particularly helpful regarding timing!