That is a substantial move to TM. And I was ignored when I said she was cutting through
Probably inevitably. Let's face it, the other two options are not exactly attractive, so the middle of the road was always going to draw some converts .... even if without any enthusiasm.
On Peston one of the reporters explained it thus: "Ten friends go to a restaurant and they have to agree on what to eat. Five like beef, but not fish, the other five like fish but not beef. So they settle on Chicken, none of their favourites, but good enough."
And the alternative to not having chicken is leaving the restaurant and going hungry of their own volition. Or something.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
That is a substantial move to TM. And I was ignored when I said she was cutting through
Probably inevitably. Let's face it, the other two options are not exactly attractive, so the middle of the road was always going to draw some converts .... even if without any enthusiasm.
On Peston one of the reporters explained it thus: "Ten friends go to a restaurant and they have to agree on what to eat. Five like beef, but not fish, the other five like fish but not beef. So they settle on Chicken, none of their favourites, but good enough."
Could have been worse. What Mogg and Corbyn are proposing is getting kicked out of the restaurant in a violent and disorderly fashion and being forced to eat pizza, outside, while cold, with extra pineapple.
Then they wonder why they are less popular than they feel they should be.
Mogg, yes.
Jezza though, is saying: 'I don't like whatever you've chosen and would like something that's not on the menu but don't press me to tell you what it is'.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
The #peoplesvote vote would only happen if May's deal is voted down.
I predict that it will pass though. Tory Brexiteers are chickens.
Yes, maybe (though I doubt it - and it needs some Labour votes too do not forget, since the DUP at the least are not on board). But if the vote happens and no deal is included, at least you accept that as a risk. Too many believe it impossible, or that the public would never vote for it. I don't think they would. But they might.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
Can we consider the possibility it's because they're idiots who haven't bothered to read what's on offer?
The funny thing is, I'm really drawn to it as a Remainer as well. It offers the prospect of keepin gmost of the stuff I like about the EU - free markets, free travel, security co-operation etc - while getting rid of the deeply problematic stuff like the ludicrous cumbersome bureaucracy, the old boys clubs, whoops, Parliament, Commission and Council and eliminates the kangaroo court, er CJEU.
What's not to like?
It hasn't been negotiated. The Political Statement is a set of parameters for a future negotiation. It's not even smoke and mirrors. The Withdrawal Agreement agrees the terms of leaving, sets up a backstop for the Irish border in the absence of any other arrangement and allows a two year extension. That's it. The easy bit. The real negotiations start after Brexit.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
Can we consider the possibility it's because they're idiots who haven't bothered to read what's on offer?
The funny thing is, I'm really drawn to it as a Remainer as well. It offers the prospect of keepin gmost of the stuff I like about the EU - free markets, free travel, security co-operation etc - while getting rid of the deeply problematic stuff like the ludicrous cumbersome bureaucracy, the old boys clubs, whoops, Parliament, Commission and Council and eliminates the kangaroo court, er CJEU.
What's not to like?
It hasn't been negotiated. The Political Statement is a set of parameters for a future negotiation. It's not even smoke and mirrors. The Withdrawal Agreement agrees the terms of leaving, sets up a backstop for the Irish border in the absence of any other arrangement and allows a two temporary extension. That's it. The easy bit. The real negotiations start after Brexit.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Tonight for the first time the polls are showing the referendum losing considerable traction
If this momentum continues we will brexit one way or another
The Deltapoll people are quoting looks like an outlier. In any case it doesn't worry me if Deal starts out ahead of Remain. At least that shows it's a balanced debate and not a stitch up, so leavers shouldn't fear a referendum to seek 'informed consent' for the withdrawal agreement.
Well now there was an interesting surprise this evening.
An old friend of mine from school who I only keep in contact with via FB popped up a posting. Life long old fashioned left winger, Labour party member and activist. He was posting one of the latest pieces from Spiked. I knew he had voted Remain last time and In the conversation below I said jokingly I was surprised he was posting pro-Leave stuff. His reply was:
"I voted remain, for economic reasons, but I'm so disillusioned by the liberal elite trying to destroy what the people voted for that I will vote leave should we ever have to do it again (which we shouldn't)."
Now I don't doubt for a minute he will be a pretty rare beast with that view but coming from the Leave side I was obviously pleased to see there are at least a few hardy souls who have been swayed away from Remain by the attitudes of the political classes.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Tonight for the first time the polls are showing the referendum losing considerable traction
If this momentum continues we will brexit one way or another
The Deltapoll people are quoting looks like an outlier. In any case it doesn't worry me if Deal starts out ahead of Remain. At least that shows it's a balanced debate and not a stitch up, so leavers shouldn't fear a referendum to seek 'informed consent' for the withdrawal agreement.
I admire your consistency in support of Remain William but I think you should start focusing on the long Re-join campaign (which would have my support).
That is a substantial move to TM. And I was ignored when I said she was cutting through
Probably inevitably. Let's face it, the other two options are not exactly attractive, so the middle of the road was always going to draw some converts .... even if without any enthusiasm.
On Peston one of the reporters explained it thus: "Ten friends go to a restaurant and they have to agree on what to eat. Five like beef, but not fish, the other five like fish but not beef. So they settle on Chicken, none of their favourites, but good enough."
Three decide immediately to just go home instead, and four others refuse to pay for it as it is not what they initially wanted, and a punch up ensues.
And everybody asks "why am I friends with a person who insists I can't eat what I want?"
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Tonight for the first time the polls are showing the referendum losing considerable traction
If this momentum continues we will brexit one way or another
The Deltapoll people are quoting looks like an outlier. In any case it doesn't worry me if Deal starts out ahead of Remain. At least that shows it's a balanced debate and not a stitch up, so leavers shouldn't fear a referendum to seek 'informed consent' for the withdrawal agreement.
Easy to call it an outlier but the direction of travel is brexit. You do seem worried to be fair
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Tonight for the first time the polls are showing the referendum losing considerable traction
If this momentum continues we will brexit one way or another
The Deltapoll people are quoting looks like an outlier. In any case it doesn't worry me if Deal starts out ahead of Remain. At least that shows it's a balanced debate and not a stitch up, so leavers shouldn't fear a referendum to seek 'informed consent' for the withdrawal agreement.
I admire your consistency in support of Remain William but I think you should start focusing on the long Re-join campaign (which would have my support).
It might surprise you to hear this but if we do Brexit I think the first focus should be on UK constitutional reform (and possibly dissolution) before rejoining. Not rejoining immediately as we are.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Not sure if anyone watched May answering questions to the Commons Liaison Committee this morning. Last two questioners were Bernard Jenkin and Bill Cash; what a pair of rude miserable arseholes they came across as.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Tonight for the first time the polls are showing the referendum losing considerable traction
If this momentum continues we will brexit one way or another
The Deltapoll people are quoting looks like an outlier. In any case it doesn't worry me if Deal starts out ahead of Remain. At least that shows it's a balanced debate and not a stitch up, so leavers shouldn't fear a referendum to seek 'informed consent' for the withdrawal agreement.
Easy to call it an outlier but the direction of travel is brexit. You do seem worried to be fair
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Let's see how quickly the p**ple's vote campaign rolls back on a 2nd referendum once they realise there's a serious chance they might actually lose it.
That would be incredibly intellectually dishonest of them.
So we should assume it will happen?
Shall we stick with reality for now rather than the imagined crimes of your straw man?
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Tonight for the first time the polls are showing the referendum losing considerable traction
If this momentum continues we will brexit one way or another
The Deltapoll people are quoting looks like an outlier. In any case it doesn't worry me if Deal starts out ahead of Remain. At least that shows it's a balanced debate and not a stitch up, so leavers shouldn't fear a referendum to seek 'informed consent' for the withdrawal agreement.
I admire your consistency in support of Remain William but I think you should start focusing on the long Re-join campaign (which would have my support).
It might surprise you to hear this but if we do Brexit I think the first focus should be on UK constitutional reform (and possibly dissolution) before rejoining. Not rejoining immediately as we are.
Aha, I assume you wish to prioritise a rerun of the AV referendum first up?
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Not sure if anyone watched May answering questions to the Commons Liaison Committee this morning. Last two questioners were Bernard Jenkin and Bill Cash; what a pair of rude miserable arseholes they came across as.
They are ultra brexiteers and do not represent my views
Except, we now know Maitlis was either lying or mistaken. The fake vicar came from an agency that specialises in providing "representative focus groups" (i.e. actors).
I’m not sure that follows. The agencies have a panel of people - like YouGov etc - about whom they know a bunch of data and can pick a selection to match what’S needed. That said, this inclusion looks at best careless/unfortunate
Not sure if anyone watched May answering questions to the Commons Liaison Committee this morning. Last two questioners were Bernard Jenkin and Bill Cash; what a pair of rude miserable arseholes they came across as.
What else is new? Those two have always been a pair of . . . I can't think of a polite phrase.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Tonight for the first time the polls are showing the referendum losing considerable traction
If this momentum continues we will brexit one way or another
The Deltapoll people are quoting looks like an outlier. In any case it doesn't worry me if Deal starts out ahead of Remain. At least that shows it's a balanced debate and not a stitch up, so leavers shouldn't fear a referendum to seek 'informed consent' for the withdrawal agreement.
I admire your consistency in support of Remain William but I think you should start focusing on the long Re-join campaign (which would have my support).
It might surprise you to hear this but if we do Brexit I think the first focus should be on UK constitutional reform (and possibly dissolution) before rejoining. Not rejoining immediately as we are.
Aha, I assume you wish to prioritise a rerun of the AV referendum first up?
Not sure if anyone watched May answering questions to the Commons Liaison Committee this morning. Last two questioners were Bernard Jenkin and Bill Cash; what a pair of rude miserable arseholes they came across as.
Sir Bernard Jenkin and Sir William Cash, majorities of 14356 and 17495 respectively. They can be as rude and miserable as they like, they've clearly got it made already.
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
Can we consider the possibility it's because they're idiots who haven't bothered to read what's on offer?
The funny thing is, I'm really drawn to it as a Remainer as well. It offers the prospect of keepin gmost of the stuff I like about the EU - free markets, free travel, security co-operation etc - while getting rid of the deeply problematic stuff like the ludicrous cumbersome bureaucracy, the old boys clubs, whoops, Parliament, Commission and Council and eliminates the kangaroo court, er CJEU.
What's not to like?
It hasn't been negotiated. The Political Statement is a set of parameters for a future negotiation. It's not even smoke and mirrors. The Withdrawal Agreement agrees the terms of leaving, sets up a backstop for the Irish border in the absence of any other arrangement and allows a two temporary extension. That's it. The easy bit. The real negotiations start after Brexit.
At least it would be Brexit I guess.
Indeed. We don't really have any choice over the Withdrawal Agreement. Actually it's an OK agreement, as far as it goes. The problem no-one is being honest about Brexit. Certainly not Theresa May. We will Brexit and find there's no deal there.
Well now there was an interesting surprise this evening.
An old friend of mine from school who I only keep in contact with via FB popped up a posting. Life long old fashioned left winger, Labour party member and activist. He was posting one of the latest pieces from Spiked. I knew he had voted Remain last time and In the conversation below I said jokingly I was surprised he was posting pro-Leave stuff. His reply was:
"I voted remain, for economic reasons, but I'm so disillusioned by the liberal elite trying to destroy what the people voted for that I will vote leave should we ever have to do it again (which we shouldn't)."
Now I don't doubt for a minute he will be a pretty rare beast with that view but coming from the Leave side I was obviously pleased to see there are at least a few hardy souls who have been swayed away from Remain by the attitudes of the political classes.
His remark comes straight out of Brendan’s lexicon. Sounds as if Spiked has radicalized him to me. Anyone know a good de-programmer?
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Tonight for the first time the polls are showing the referendum losing considerable traction
If this momentum continues we will brexit one way or another
The Deltapoll people are quoting looks like an outlier. In any case it doesn't worry me if Deal starts out ahead of Remain. At least that shows it's a balanced debate and not a stitch up, so leavers shouldn't fear a referendum to seek 'informed consent' for the withdrawal agreement.
I admire your consistency in support of Remain William but I think you should start focusing on the long Re-join campaign (which would have my support).
It might surprise you to hear this but if we do Brexit I think the first focus should be on UK constitutional reform (and possibly dissolution) before rejoining. Not rejoining immediately as we are.
Aha, I assume you wish to prioritise a rerun of the AV referendum first up?
No, Scottish independence first.
Should that not wait until after the transition period (assuming we get one)? The shape of things after the transition period could be relevant to our dear northern comrades.
Survation this week had Remain 10% ahead of No Deal Leave and 9% ahead of Leave with a Deal but this Delta poll shows those relying on a ' People's Vote' are not guaranteed a Remain win
I think we have to Leave with No Deal. It is the only way to sort this out.
In which case the Brexit Show-trials that OGH is so keen on will be of those who blocked efforts to prepare - and left us unprotected from such an outcome.
Dear god there is always going to be an excuse isn't there.
Survation this week had Remain 10% ahead of No Deal Leave and 9% ahead of Leave with a Deal but this Delta poll shows those relying on a ' People's Vote' are not guaranteed a Remain win
I think we have to Leave with No Deal. It is the only way to sort this out.
In which case the Brexit Show-trials that OGH is so keen on will be of those who blocked efforts to prepare - and left us unprotected from such an outcome.
If we are stupid enough to go down the No Deal route then we need to ditch May, let a hardliner take over, delay A50 for 24 months then leave.
At that point the leavers will finally have run out of f**ing excuses and there will be nobody else to blame, though I have no doubt some more will be dreamed up in the meantime. Iron law of Brexit, nothing is the fault of Brexit it is always just the wrong sort of Brexit.
Good point! I’m starting to think No Deal and all the misery, impoverishment and humiliation it will entail will be salutary in the long term. Let’s leave the Leavers nowhere to hide. After that we can grind the bastards into the dust.
What happens if we go for ‘no deal’ and in the run up a series of side deals are agreed to prevent interruption of trade, medicines food etc?
We roll over into April and the world carries on, no empty shelves, no grounded planes, typhoid epidemics or insulin dependent diabetics collapsing in the street. . What do you think of our chances of ever rejoining Eu are ?
Or, people realise May's deal isn't actually that bad.
It's actually quite a hard Brexit. I'm baffled why more Brexiteers aren't fully behind it. I'd have killed for this (figuratively) three years ago.
The questioning leading up to this summary from Yvette Cooper shows why you're wrong to assume this will deliver what you expect. It's very much a pseudo-Brexit.
Tonight for the first time the polls are showing the referendum losing considerable traction
If this momentum continues we will brexit one way or another
The Deltapoll people are quoting looks like an outlier. In any case it doesn't worry me if Deal starts out ahead of Remain. At least that shows it's a balanced debate and not a stitch up, so leavers shouldn't fear a referendum to seek 'informed consent' for the withdrawal agreement.
I admire your consistency in support of Remain William but I think you should start focusing on the long Re-join campaign (which would have my support).
It might surprise you to hear this but if we do Brexit I think the first focus should be on UK constitutional reform (and possibly dissolution) before rejoining. Not rejoining immediately as we are.
Aha, I assume you wish to prioritise a rerun of the AV referendum first up?
No, Scottish independence first.
TBF I agree. I suspect by 2050 Ireland will be united and Scotland, England, and Wales (or possibly Scotland and England & Wales) will be independent members of the EU.
(The Yorkshire First Party will be campaigning for independence, no doubt.)
It's yet another of a long series of Guardian campaigns.
Since Viner has taken over as editor the Graun has really upped its game on investigative journalism. Some campaigns have been more successful than others of course, as is to be expected.
It has always seemed absurd to me that referring to "coloured people" is highly offensive and racist, while referring to "people of colour" is highly right on!
Survation this week had Remain 10% ahead of No Deal Leave and 9% ahead of Leave with a Deal but this Delta poll shows those relying on a ' People's Vote' are not guaranteed a Remain win
I think we have to Leave with No Deal. It is the only way to sort this out.
In which case the Brexit Show-trials that OGH is so keen on will be of those who blocked efforts to prepare - and left us unprotected from such an outcome.
Dear god there is always going to be an excuse isn't there.
Survation this week had Remain 10% ahead of No Deal Leave and 9% ahead of Leave with a Deal but this Delta poll shows those relying on a ' People's Vote' are not guaranteed a Remain win
I think we have to Leave with No Deal. It is the only way to sort this out.
In which case the Brexit Show-trials that OGH is so keen on will be of those who blocked efforts to prepare - and left us unprotected from such an outcome.
If we are stupid enough to go down the No Deal route then we need to ditch May, let a hardliner take over, delay A50 for 24 months then leave.
At that point the leavers will finally have run out of f**ing excuses and there will be nobody else to blame, though I have no doubt some more will be dreamed up in the meantime. Iron law of Brexit, nothing is the fault of Brexit it is always just the wrong sort of Brexit.
Good point! I’m starting to think No Deal and all the misery, impoverishment and humiliation it will entail will be salutary in the long term. Let’s leave the Leavers nowhere to hide. After that we can grind the bastards into the dust.
What happens if we go for ‘no deal’ and in the run up a series of side deals are agreed to prevent interruption of trade, medicines food etc?
We roll over into April and the world carries on, no empty shelves, no grounded planes, typhoid epidemics or insulin dependent diabetics collapsing in the street. . What do you think of our chances of ever rejoining Eu are ?
It's yet another of a long series of Guardian campaigns.
Since Viner has taken over as editor the Graun has really upped its game on investigative journalism. Some campaigns have been more successful than others of course, as is to be expected.
I have to say I have totally missed what has caused everybody to turn against Taylor.
Personally I have never been a fan as his position is normally one of being totally unwilling to condemn any player no mattter what they have done, but i caught a bit last week or so of a load of ex-pros sticking the boot in.
Aw, diddums. If MPs want to vote against the deal in mid December that's fine, but it seems reasonable that they then have to work throughout the period - we will be in crisis and needing to come up with another option, which might require substantial parliamentary debate, and a long recess can ill be afforded. Buckle up.
But in contrast to some of the optimism on here, another story about opposition to the deal growing, not shrinking.
Aw, diddums. If MPs want to vote against the deal in mid December that's fine, but it seems reasonable that they then have to work throughout the period - we will be in crisis and needing to come up with another option, which might require substantial parliamentary debate, and a long recess can ill be afforded. Buckle up.
But in contrast to some of the optimism on here, another story about opposition to the deal growing, not shrinking.
It has always seemed absurd to me that referring to "coloured people" is highly offensive and racist, while referring to "people of colour" is highly right on!
It's informed politeness Foxy, as you probably know; refer to people the way they wish to be referred to.
'Coloured' has perjorative overtones from the pre-civil rights US and the SA aprtheid eras. But you know that really
It has always seemed absurd to me that referring to "coloured people" is highly offensive and racist, while referring to "people of colour" is highly right on!
It's informed politeness Foxy, as you probably know; refer to people the way they wish to be referred to.
'Coloured' has perjorative overtones from the pre-civil rights US and the SA aprtheid eras. But you know that really
Of course I know it, but it is linguistically absurd!
Well now there was an interesting surprise this evening.
An old friend of mine from school who I only keep in contact with via FB popped up a posting. Life long old fashioned left winger, Labour party member and activist. He was posting one of the latest pieces from Spiked. I knew he had voted Remain last time and In the conversation below I said jokingly I was surprised he was posting pro-Leave stuff. His reply was:
"I voted remain, for economic reasons, but I'm so disillusioned by the liberal elite trying to destroy what the people voted for that I will vote leave should we ever have to do it again (which we shouldn't)."
Now I don't doubt for a minute he will be a pretty rare beast with that view but coming from the Leave side I was obviously pleased to see there are at least a few hardy souls who have been swayed away from Remain by the attitudes of the political classes.
Leftwingers with a notion of "liberal elite" are rare in themselves, but a referendum with a Remain option shouldn't give you much to worry about, @Richard. The campaign is already being fought, below the line. Hence Tommy Robinson's intervention in the Huddersfield bullying story, which has probably entered millions of minds by now with its age-old racist message. I knew when I heard the Huddersfield story that it would help Leave.
Then there was the 1997 Winchester parliamentary by-election. The Tory candidate who lost to the Liberal Democrat by two votes successfully challenged the result on the wholly justified ground that a few dozen ballots had been improperly voided. Few cared about the technical details or the fairness argument. Many considered that the umpire had called the Tory out and he was refusing to walk. The LibDem won the by-election 5 months after the GE on a swing of 20%.
Justine Greening's "22 weeks" contribution should be taken with a mountain of salt. What are they going to do - have a "conditional" campaign for the EU election running simultaneously with the referendum campaign? Idiocy!
It's yet another of a long series of Guardian campaigns.
Since Viner has taken over as editor the Graun has really upped its game on investigative journalism. Some campaigns have been more successful than others of course, as is to be expected.
I have to say I have totally missed what has caused everybody to turn against Taylor.
Personally I have never been a fan as his position is normally one of being totally unwilling to condemn any player no mattter what they have done, but i caught a bit last week or so of a load of ex-pros sticking the boot in.
It's yet another of a long series of Guardian campaigns.
Since Viner has taken over as editor the Graun has really upped its game on investigative journalism. Some campaigns have been more successful than others of course, as is to be expected.
I have to say I have totally missed what has caused everybody to turn against Taylor.
Personally I have never been a fan as his position is normally one of being totally unwilling to condemn any player no mattter what they have done, but i caught a bit last week or so of a load of ex-pros sticking the boot in.
Troughing it massively springs to mind.
I thought that was a given in football administration positions?
It has always seemed absurd to me that referring to "coloured people" is highly offensive and racist, while referring to "people of colour" is highly right on!
It's informed politeness Foxy, as you probably know; refer to people the way they wish to be referred to.
'Coloured' has perjorative overtones from the pre-civil rights US and the SA aprtheid eras. But you know that really
Of course I know it, but it is linguistically absurd!
It's yet another of a long series of Guardian campaigns.
Since Viner has taken over as editor the Graun has really upped its game on investigative journalism. Some campaigns have been more successful than others of course, as is to be expected.
I have to say I have totally missed what has caused everybody to turn against Taylor.
Personally I have never been a fan as his position is normally one of being totally unwilling to condemn any player no mattter what they have done, but i caught a bit last week or so of a load of ex-pros sticking the boot in.
Troughing it massively springs to mind.
I thought that was a given in football administration positions?
Indeed, but Blatter and Platini have been knocked off their perches, which brings others into the limelight.
It definitely feels like the zeitgeist is swinging back toward Brexit this evening, parliament out of touch.
The Sun is reporting, helped in their distribution by Google, that the Syrian bullying victim in Huddersfield has received £135000 in donations. That kind of news helps Leave a lot.
To be fair, I wonder if the RAF would be in any better place. The long-haul VIP jets are just moonlighting from their day jobs as tankers, so if the one taking the PM to a conference went tech they too might be hard pressed to rustle up a replacement. In fact, is May even taking a RAF plane? Usually for these sorts of thing they charter from BA or fly scheduled.
Aw, diddums. If MPs want to vote against the deal in mid December that's fine, but it seems reasonable that they then have to work throughout the period - we will be in crisis and needing to come up with another option, which might require substantial parliamentary debate, and a long recess can ill be afforded. Buckle up.
But in contrast to some of the optimism on here, another story about opposition to the deal growing, not shrinking.
There is no debate possible that will create a solution. The EU negotiates with governments not parliaments. All cutting the recess will do is give people more time to repeat their lines - there is no willingness to listen or compromise being shown by those who oppose the deal.
Parliament cannot set the terms for any negotiation - we don't have a system that makes that in any way feasible.
Stalemate means No Deal - that is what the existing legislation means. We leave without a deal at the end of March.
There is but one deal on the table. There is no prospect of re-opening the negotiations. MPs have to come to terms with that fact.
Refusing the accept the deal means no deal. Nothing they can say or do alters that fact.
Is it a great deal? No. It is workable - probably. Is there a viable alternative? No.
Yes, opposition is there to oppose - but it is also there to put forward a viable alternative and vision. As of yet, I have seen nothing resembling that from anyone who has spoken out against the deal.
What would there be for Parliament to do over the holidays?
Surely as discussed on here a few days ago there would be a cosmetic renegotiation leading to a clarification of the backstop which will take a few weeks, followed by the clarified deal returning to the Commons in late Jan / early Feb after approval at a Jan EU Summit.
It definitely feels like the zeitgeist is swinging back toward Brexit this evening, parliament out of touch.
The Sun is reporting, helped in their distribution by Google, that the Syrian bullying victim in Huddersfield has received £135000 in donations. That kind of news helps Leave a lot.
The country is f*cked.
What has Leave got to do with teenage racist bullying?
Aw, diddums. If MPs want to vote against the deal in mid December that's fine, but it seems reasonable that they then have to work throughout the period - we will be in crisis and needing to come up with another option, which might require substantial parliamentary debate, and a long recess can ill be afforded. Buckle up.
But in contrast to some of the optimism on here, another story about opposition to the deal growing, not shrinking.
There is no debate possible that will create a solution. The EU negotiates with governments not parliaments. All cutting the recess will do is give people more time to repeat their lines - there is no willingness to listen or compromise being shown by those who oppose the deal.
Parliament cannot set the terms for any negotiation - we don't have a system that makes that in any way feasible.
Stalemate means No Deal - that is what the existing legislation means. We leave without a deal at the end of March.
There is but one deal on the table. There is no prospect of re-opening the negotiations. MPs have to come to terms with that fact.
Refusing the accept the deal means no deal. Nothing they can say or do alters that fact.
Is it a great deal? No. It is workable - probably. Is there a viable alternative? No.
Yes, opposition is there to oppose - but it is also there to put forward a viable alternative and vision. As of yet, I have seen nothing resembling that from anyone who has spoken out against the deal.
I agree with you, but MPs do not and they are going to vote down the deal and then demand we do something else. All the more reason not to recess. If you are right and they need to face up to the facts they should exhaust all their options and come to terms with it before Christmas, not waste even more time and wait until afterwards.
What would there be for Parliament to do over the holidays?
Surely as discussed on here a few days ago there would be a cosmetic renegotiation leading to a clarification of the backstop which will take a few weeks, followed by the clarified deal returning to the Commons in late Jan / early Feb after approval at a Jan EU Summit.
If they're going to cock about they might as well be there the whole time - since it will have been parliament telling May (or caretaker PM) that the deal won't fly, perhaps they should stay to receive daily updates and give their views on it - no point in waiting to hear the progress at the end and it is still not acceptable.
Layla Moran going down like a bucket of cold sick in Penzance...
It's interesting that when someone in the audience said we should have another vote there were lots of cheers, but when a politician said it, the reaction was more negative.
Comments
Jezza though, is saying: 'I don't like whatever you've chosen and would like something that's not on the menu but don't press me to tell you what it is'.
Meanwhile the restaurant's about to close btw.
If this momentum continues we will brexit one way or another
https://unherd.com/2018/08/jesus-somewhere-paul-anywhere/
At best, it could lead to the best of all worlds - free trade, but no politics.
I doubt if either extreme will happen. What we can say for definite is it is better than the alternative - which is No Deal right now.
Good night and sleep well.
I'll start to panic when you begin suggesting a no deal crash-out is the best option.
An old friend of mine from school who I only keep in contact with via FB popped up a posting. Life long old fashioned left winger, Labour party member and activist. He was posting one of the latest pieces from Spiked. I knew he had voted Remain last time and In the conversation below I said jokingly I was surprised he was posting pro-Leave stuff. His reply was:
"I voted remain, for economic reasons, but I'm so disillusioned by the liberal elite trying to destroy what the people voted for that I will vote leave should we ever have to do it again (which we shouldn't)."
Now I don't doubt for a minute he will be a pretty rare beast with that view but coming from the Leave side I was obviously pleased to see there are at least a few hardy souls who have been swayed away from Remain by the attitudes of the political classes.
Oh yes! "One I don't like."
(That phrase fits so many brexit debates)
(I'm feeling a bit sheepish now!)
We roll over into April and the world carries on, no empty shelves, no grounded planes, typhoid epidemics or insulin dependent diabetics collapsing in the street. . What do you think of our chances of ever rejoining Eu are ?
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1068262586200805378?s=21
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1068267479984676867?s=21
(The Yorkshire First Party will be campaigning for independence, no doubt.)
Since Viner has taken over as editor the Graun has really upped its game on investigative journalism. Some campaigns have been more successful than others of course, as is to be expected.
https://twitter.com/mathieuvonrohr/status/1068255923603415046
It's fantastic to see that the great Brexit conundrum is finally comeing to a satisfactory resolution.
(Oh well, I can dream
May's deal is the clear Schulze method winner. p[M,N] = 59; p[M,R] = 56; p[N,R] = 52. No other paths. Therefore M > N > R
It is also the alternative vote winner. [R = 39, M = 33, N = 28] -> [M = 56, R = 44]
Personally I have never been a fan as his position is normally one of being totally unwilling to condemn any player no mattter what they have done, but i caught a bit last week or so of a load of ex-pros sticking the boot in.
But in contrast to some of the optimism on here, another story about opposition to the deal growing, not shrinking.
Good night folks
She is right to appeal over their heads
'Coloured' has perjorative overtones from the pre-civil rights US and the SA aprtheid eras. But you know that really
And don't tell the NAACP...
Then there was the 1997 Winchester parliamentary by-election. The Tory candidate who lost to the Liberal Democrat by two votes successfully challenged the result on the wholly justified ground that a few dozen ballots had been improperly voided. Few cared about the technical details or the fairness argument. Many considered that the umpire had called the Tory out and he was refusing to walk. The LibDem won the by-election 5 months after the GE on a swing of 20%.
Justine Greening's "22 weeks" contribution should be taken with a mountain of salt. What are they going to do - have a "conditional" campaign for the EU election running simultaneously with the referendum campaign? Idiocy!
Are you watching, politicians?
Politicians pay a brutal price at times too - just look at every living former PM.
The country is f*cked.
Parliament cannot set the terms for any negotiation - we don't have a system that makes that in any way feasible.
Stalemate means No Deal - that is what the existing legislation means. We leave without a deal at the end of March.
There is but one deal on the table. There is no prospect of re-opening the negotiations. MPs have to come to terms with that fact.
Refusing the accept the deal means no deal. Nothing they can say or do alters that fact.
Is it a great deal? No. It is workable - probably. Is there a viable alternative? No.
Yes, opposition is there to oppose - but it is also there to put forward a viable alternative and vision. As of yet, I have seen nothing resembling that from anyone who has spoken out against the deal.
Surely as discussed on here a few days ago there would be a cosmetic renegotiation leading to a clarification of the backstop which will take a few weeks, followed by the clarified deal returning to the Commons in late Jan / early Feb after approval at a Jan EU Summit.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/29/government-set-to-relax-restrictions-on-non-eu-doctors