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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Meanwhile the approval rating of the EU leadership by UK voter

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  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    +1

    It's about time the people felt the cold hard smack of What They Asked For.
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    Exactly, how these idiots asking questions think they could do any better is beyond me. We voted to leave, she has come up with a reasonable deal which should see minimum disruption, yet these fucking MPs all seem to want to stop it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    No deal followed by years of chaos followed by another referendum is a possibility.
    No deal (combined with our legislation) almost certainly precludes short term rejoin - so I don’t see the steps to a second referendum.
    The EU if they were being mean would force us to go through the full accession procedure.
    A no deal crash out followed by our burning husk of an economy heading through the full accession procedure would at least comprehensively punish both sets of headbangers.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm not sure, I think the vote might be lost because of stupid miscalculations on both sides - you see here some people still clinging to the myth that there's some better deal available, and plenty of Brexiteers who have convinced themselves that crashing out without any deal would mean a painless transition to WTO terms with no economic catastrophe in the meantime.
    Spot on. I think, as ever, cock-up is more likely than conspiracy!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,746

    I was intrigued at Starmer's reaction throughout the PMs statement - he wasn't shaking his head, posturing etc as she went but genuinely seemed to be listening rather than the normal panto reactions....

    As a feat of political engineering it's truly impressive to construct an edifice that can be simultaneously all things to everyone and nothing to anyone.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,676

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    But that does not mean that we should do it.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Amazed to see the Greig-edited Mail criticising the ERG for being, and I quote, "pale, male and stale". Not only is that a coinage of the decidedly Mail-hostile identity politics brigade, it also characterises much of the Mail's own readership.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    There are no other possibilities until there are. No deal was better than a bad deal, until it wasn't, and then a bad deal was better than no deal.

    If you believe anything May says at this point, you're a fool.
    What other possibilities are there?
    There's no deal, there's an A50 extension and Norway4Now, there's a Labour BRINO, there's May's deal without all the stupid ass backstop bollocks. There's a not-quite-no-deal minimal transition deal. There's Super-remain. There's remain--. There's getting rid of May, apologizing to the EU for wasting their and our time for two years on her incompetence and dishonesty and restarting the whole process, in good faith, this time not under the control of a useless, dishonest and pointless waste of space.

    There are so many possibilities for you as a saboteur to undermine Brexit properly. You just have to let go of your frankly untenable attachment to May.
    For the avoidance of doubt, I have zero attachment to Mrs May, I think she's a dreadfully poor leader. That doesn't make her wrong on this point, not does it mean that anyone else could have bamboozled the EU into a better deal - in fact, I think by her obstinacy she's actually done OK.
    May is doomed to be reviled on all sides, by leavers for failing to deliver their unicorns and by remainers for pretending she could do so. She will cut a sad and lonely figure in retirement I fear.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018
    currystar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    Exactly, how these idiots asking questions think they could do any better is beyond me. We voted to leave, she has come up with a reasonable deal which should see minimum disruption, yet these fucking MPs all seem to want to stop it.
    That's because it isn't a reasonable deal.

    If it were reasonable, she'd be able to convince anyone whose job didn't depend on voting for it.

    I understand you guys, I really do.

    Nabavi, Big G, Carlotta... Y'all thought that as saboteurs, May was going to lead us to the BRINO promised land.

    But... you miscalculated. You underestimated May's total lack of talent for any of the skills required to pull this off. And now you're left holding a deal nobody wants, defending a failed husk of a PM, and all around you opposition to this deal is growing by the day.

    But there is still a way out for you. Let May go, she's no longer useful to you saboteurs as a going concern. You wanna frustrate the will of the people, it's time to start thinking bigger.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    But that does not mean that we should do it.
    It does if you either want us to leave the EU, or want to respect the result of the referendum.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    currystar said:


    Exactly, how these idiots asking questions think they could do any better is beyond me. We voted to leave, she has come up with a reasonable deal which should see minimum disruption, yet these fucking MPs all seem to want to stop it.

    What really gets my goat is the "people voted for" brigade.

    52% of the people voted to leave: we are leaving. Of that 52%, there were a whole raft of reasons and motivations. Significant chunks of the leave side, including Farrage, Bannks and Hannan, campaigned for staying in the single market. Yet now, suddenly, anything but total isolation brexit is a betrayal?

    What's particularly galling is how few of our MPs take the time to educate themselves about what such a complex deal entails, frequently confusing transition deal elements with permanence.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
  • May is doomed to be reviled on all sides, by leavers for failing to deliver their unicorns and by remainers for pretending she could do so. She will cut a sad and lonely figure in retirement I fear.

    Very probably. That doesn't make her wrong.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    But that does not mean that we should do it.
    It does if you either want us to leave the EU, or want to respect the result of the referendum.
    That's pretty rich coming from the #1 supporter of the establishment's lumbering attempts to lock the UK in perpetuity to BRINO vassalage.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018

    May is doomed to be reviled on all sides, by leavers for failing to deliver their unicorns and by remainers for pretending she could do so. She will cut a sad and lonely figure in retirement I fear.

    Very probably. That doesn't make her wrong.
    No, the fact that she's wrong makes her wrong.
    Hilarious, profoundly, deeply, terribly wrong.
    And incompetent.
    And dishonest.
    And thick.
  • That's pretty rich coming from the #1 supporter of the establishment's lumbering attempts to lock the UK in perpetuity to BRINO vassalage.

    looks modest #1? Me, really? You are too kind, Mr Cocque
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    88 - Gordon Henderson

    Over 50% of Tory backbenchers are now out and proud Noes.
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    May's deal gets voted down, everyone tries to get their alternative to happen. If they can find a majority in parliament, bob's your uncle, but if they fail, another vote in Jan/Feb on May's deal where it really is a case of Deal or No Deal would see it through Parliament pretty easily.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,676
    edited November 2018

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    But that does not mean that we should do it.
    It does if you either want us to leave the EU, or want to respect the result of the referendum.
    The most respectful outcome is to ask the public, "we have discovered that can only exit the EU with significant economic or democratic cost. Do you still want to do it?"

    The referendum was about taking back control, the deal does the opposite of that and therefore does not respect the result.

    A second vote gives control back to the public.
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    Seriously I can't believe people keep writing this nonsense. We voted to leave, we have a deal that means we leave. Politicians should not go against the referendum result.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    That's pretty rich coming from the #1 supporter of the establishment's lumbering attempts to lock the UK in perpetuity to BRINO vassalage.

    looks modest #1? Me, really? You are too kind, Mr Cocque
    On here, not in the world. You're no Olly Robbins, don't start getting all soppy on me.
  • Watching all these technical Qs to TMay and trying to imagine how some of her predecessors would have coped in these circumstances and if they would have such a detailed understanding of these matters.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Steve Baker complaining about this text:

    "Where a party fails to take measures necessary to comply with the binding resolution of a dispute within a reasonable period of time, the other Party would be entitled to request financial compensation or take proportionate and temporary measures, including suspension of its obligations within the scope of the future relationship.

    What planet is he on if he thinks any trade agreement would not have similar dispute resolution clauses?
  • NotchNotch Posts: 145
    edited November 2018
    If the DUP prefer the pre-2016 status quo then they know what to do. Give the people of NI what 56% of them voted for.

    The problem is that the meme of "betrayal" clanging about in loyalists' heads can confuse their judgement even when they have sight of a big pile of money.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    But that does not mean that we should do it.
    It does if you either want us to leave the EU, or want to respect the result of the referendum.
    The most respectful outcome is to ask the public, "we have discovered that can only exit the EU with significant economic or democratic cost. Do you still want to do it?"

    The referendum was about taking back control, the deal does the opposite of that and therefore does not respect the result.

    A second vote gives control back to the public.
    "Oh hello yes, we're the government, and we think you're too thick to really understand the question we asked you the first time. Think carefully this time, you thickie! ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE?"
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Amazed to see the Greig-edited Mail criticising the ERG for being, and I quote, "pale, male and stale". Not only is that a coinage of the decidedly Mail-hostile identity politics brigade, it also characterises much of the Mail's own readership.

    Hmm. It's actually got a rather heavily feminised readership for a newspaper.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/380710/daily-mail-the-mail-on-sunday-monthly-reach-by-demographic-uk/
  • Steve Baker complaining about this text:

    "Where a party fails to take measures necessary to comply with the binding resolution of a dispute within a reasonable period of time, the other Party would be entitled to request financial compensation or take proportionate and temporary measures, including suspension of its obligations within the scope of the future relationship.

    What planet is he on if he thinks any trade agreement would not have similar dispute resolution clauses?

    Another fine example:

    Kate Hoey, the Labour Brexiter, says there is no need for the backstop to be in a legal agreement.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    The most worrying part to me of the lot is that @grabcocque is seemingly the manifestation of the collective will of parliament right now.
  • Watching all these technical Qs to TMay and trying to imagine how some of her predecessors would have coped in these circumstances and if they would have such a detailed understanding of these matters.

    It is astonishing how much detailed knowledge she has. Steve Baker asked a question and she responded with chapter and verse rebutting it
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited November 2018
    Isn't the EU leadership in the UK Theresa May? At least for the time being.
  • currystar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    Exactly, how these idiots asking questions think they could do any better is beyond me. We voted to leave, she has come up with a reasonable deal which should see minimum disruption, yet these fucking MPs all seem to want to stop it.
    That's because it isn't a reasonable deal.

    If it were reasonable, she'd be able to convince anyone whose job didn't depend on voting for it.

    I understand you guys, I really do.

    Nabavi, Big G, Carlotta... Y'all thought that as saboteurs, May was going to lead us to the BRINO promised land.

    But... you miscalculated. You underestimated May's total lack of talent for any of the skills required to pull this off. And now you're left holding a deal nobody wants, defending a failed husk of a PM, and all around you opposition to this deal is growing by the day.

    But there is still a way out for you. Let May go, she's no longer useful to you saboteurs as a going concern. You wanna frustrate the will of the people, it's time to start thinking bigger.
    I am afraid that if the idiocy of these hard Brexit purists leads to a reversal of the referendum result - as is very likely - it is you and these Tory backbenchers who will be responsible for frustrating the will of the people.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018
    Notch said:

    If the DUP prefer the pre-2016 status quo then they know what to do.

    The problem is that the meme of "betrayal" clanging about in loyalists' heads can confuse their judgement even when they have sight of a big pile of money.

    They will do it, I think. The moment May tries to move a meaningful vote, the DUP will end the C&S deal. Meaning that whilst trying to put together a path out of the woods once her party marmalises her shitty deal, she'll also be trying to fight off the motions of no confidence Labour will be moving, to keep her on her toes.
  • NotchNotch Posts: 145

    Isn't the EU leadership in the UK Theresa May? At least for the time being.

    I think they mean approval in the UK for the leadership of the EU (whatever that means).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,777
    edited November 2018

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    But that does not mean that we should do it.
    It does if you either want us to leave the EU, or want to respect the result of the referendum.
    The most respectful outcome is to ask the public, "we have discovered that can only exit the EU with significant economic or democratic cost. Do you still want to do it?"

    The referendum was about taking back control, the deal does the opposite of that and therefore does not respect the result.

    A second vote gives control back to the public.
    "Oh hello yes, we're the government, and we think you're too thick to really understand the question we asked you the first time. Think carefully this time, you thickie! ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE?"
    If you are so sure that is how the public will see it, then why are you clearly terrified of a 2nd vote?

    It should be a Leave landslide.
  • currystar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    Exactly, how these idiots asking questions think they could do any better is beyond me. We voted to leave, she has come up with a reasonable deal which should see minimum disruption, yet these fucking MPs all seem to want to stop it.
    That's because it isn't a reasonable deal.

    If it were reasonable, she'd be able to convince anyone whose job didn't depend on voting for it.

    I understand you guys, I really do.

    Nabavi, Big G, Carlotta... Y'all thought that as saboteurs, May was going to lead us to the BRINO promised land.

    But... you miscalculated. You underestimated May's total lack of talent for any of the skills required to pull this off. And now you're left holding a deal nobody wants, defending a failed husk of a PM, and all around you opposition to this deal is growing by the day.

    But there is still a way out for you. Let May go, she's no longer useful to you saboteurs as a going concern. You wanna frustrate the will of the people, it's time to start thinking bigger.
    I am afraid that if the idiocy of these hard Brexit purists leads to a reversal of the referendum result - as is very likely - it is you and these Tory backbenchers who will be responsible for frustrating the will of the people.
    How many times is it necessary to point out that the 'will' was only that of just over half of the people.
  • currystar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    Exactly, how these idiots asking questions think they could do any better is beyond me. We voted to leave, she has come up with a reasonable deal which should see minimum disruption, yet these fucking MPs all seem to want to stop it.
    That's because it isn't a reasonable deal.

    If it were reasonable, she'd be able to convince anyone whose job didn't depend on voting for it.

    I understand you guys, I really do.

    Nabavi, Big G, Carlotta... Y'all thought that as saboteurs, May was going to lead us to the BRINO promised land.

    But... you miscalculated. You underestimated May's total lack of talent for any of the skills required to pull this off. And now you're left holding a deal nobody wants, defending a failed husk of a PM, and all around you opposition to this deal is growing by the day.

    But there is still a way out for you. Let May go, she's no longer useful to you saboteurs as a going concern. You wanna frustrate the will of the people, it's time to start thinking bigger.
    I am afraid that if the idiocy of these hard Brexit purists leads to a reversal of the referendum result - as is very likely - it is you and these Tory backbenchers who will be responsible for frustrating the will of the people.
    How many times is it necessary to point out that the 'will' was only that of just over half of the people.
    Not even that, if you count those who didn't bother voting.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    currystar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    Exactly, how these idiots asking questions think they could do any better is beyond me. We voted to leave, she has come up with a reasonable deal which should see minimum disruption, yet these fucking MPs all seem to want to stop it.
    That's because it isn't a reasonable deal.

    If it were reasonable, she'd be able to convince anyone whose job didn't depend on voting for it.

    I understand you guys, I really do.

    Nabavi, Big G, Carlotta... Y'all thought that as saboteurs, May was going to lead us to the BRINO promised land.

    But... you miscalculated. You underestimated May's total lack of talent for any of the skills required to pull this off. And now you're left holding a deal nobody wants, defending a failed husk of a PM, and all around you opposition to this deal is growing by the day.

    But there is still a way out for you. Let May go, she's no longer useful to you saboteurs as a going concern. You wanna frustrate the will of the people, it's time to start thinking bigger.
    I am afraid that if the idiocy of these hard Brexit purists leads to a reversal of the referendum result - as is very likely - it is you and these Tory backbenchers who will be responsible for frustrating the will of the people.
    How many times is it necessary to point out that the 'will' was only that of just over half of the people that actually voted.
    A slight edit to your post above, Logical.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    But that does not mean that we should do it.
    It does if you either want us to leave the EU, or want to respect the result of the referendum.
    The most respectful outcome is to ask the public, "we have discovered that can only exit the EU with significant economic or democratic cost. Do you still want to do it?"

    The referendum was about taking back control, the deal does the opposite of that and therefore does not respect the result.

    A second vote gives control back to the public.
    That question seems to be a bit loaded.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Obsessives failing to see the bigger picture should not be a surprise.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    currystar said:

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    Seriously I can't believe people keep writing this nonsense. We voted to leave, we have a deal that means we leave. Politicians should not go against the referendum result.
    Accidental No Deal is still Brexit. It will accord with the will of the people.

    And the will of Jeremy Corbyn.
  • Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    +1

    It's about time the people felt the cold hard smack of What They Asked For.
    You're both masochists (by proxy).
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    But that does not mean that we should do it.
    It does if you either want us to leave the EU, or want to respect the result of the referendum.
    The most respectful outcome is to ask the public, "we have discovered that can only exit the EU with significant economic or democratic cost. Do you still want to do it?"

    The referendum was about taking back control, the deal does the opposite of that and therefore does not respect the result.

    A second vote gives control back to the public.
    "Oh hello yes, we're the government, and we think you're too thick to really understand the question we asked you the first time. Think carefully this time, you thickie! ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE?"
    If you are so sure that is he the public will see it, then why are you clearly terrified of a 2nd vote?

    It should a Leave landslide.
    I'm not terrified of a public vote. I just don't think it's the electorate's job to save Parliament from their own incompetence. They have their instructions, the fact that they are too dysfunctional to implement them isn't my problem.

    It sets a bad precedent. They work for us, not vice versa. But we're being called in to resolve their fuckups? I do not approve.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    DanSmith said:

    May's deal gets voted down, everyone tries to get their alternative to happen. If they can find a majority in parliament, bob's your uncle, but if they fail, another vote in Jan/Feb on May's deal where it really is a case of Deal or No Deal would see it through Parliament pretty easily.

    Is there not some paliamentary convention that prevents a measure that has been voted down from being re-presented in the same parliament?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Watching all these technical Qs to TMay and trying to imagine how some of her predecessors would have coped in these circumstances and if they would have such a detailed understanding of these matters.

    It is astonishing how much detailed knowledge she has. Steve Baker asked a question and she responded with chapter and verse rebutting it
    It all probably went over the quarterwit Baker's head, but credit to TM for knowing it in any case.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Steve Baker complaining about this text:

    "Where a party fails to take measures necessary to comply with the binding resolution of a dispute within a reasonable period of time, the other Party would be entitled to request financial compensation or take proportionate and temporary measures, including suspension of its obligations within the scope of the future relationship.

    What planet is he on if he thinks any trade agreement would not have similar dispute resolution clauses?

    Another fine example:

    Kate Hoey, the Labour Brexiter, says there is no need for the backstop to be in a legal agreement.
    Yes, the collective imbecility of this rabble is a chastening sight.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,151
    edited November 2018
    Why the public shouldn't be trusted to be asked about anything...

    Demand for Aldi's new merchandise sparks crushing queues and even FIGHTS in stores as shoppers grapple to snap up the toys

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6418089/Aldis-Christmas-hero-Kevin-Carrot-sells-hours-shoppers.html
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Steve Baker complaining about this text:

    "Where a party fails to take measures necessary to comply with the binding resolution of a dispute within a reasonable period of time, the other Party would be entitled to request financial compensation or take proportionate and temporary measures, including suspension of its obligations within the scope of the future relationship.

    What planet is he on if he thinks any trade agreement would not have similar dispute resolution clauses?

    Another fine example:

    Kate Hoey, the Labour Brexiter, says there is no need for the backstop to be in a legal agreement.
    Indeed. Does she understand the meaning of the word agreement?!
  • currystar said:

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    Seriously I can't believe people keep writing this nonsense. We voted to leave, we have a deal that means we leave. Politicians should not go against the referendum result.
    Accidental No Deal is still Brexit. It will accord with the will of the people.

    And the will of Jeremy Corbyn.
    It is also more likely to end in rejoin. Which I'm sure is not what Leavers had in mind.
  • Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
  • Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    +1

    It's about time the people felt the cold hard smack of What They Asked For.
    You're both masochists (by proxy).
    I'd rather voters think policies were a bit naff than think democracy was a bit naff.

    There were two opportunities for the voters to ensure that No Deal wouldn't happen, by voting Remain in 2016 or Lib Dem, Green, PC, SNP and others in 2017.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    currystar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    Exactly, how these idiots asking questions think they could do any better is beyond me. We voted to leave, she has come up with a reasonable deal which should see minimum disruption, yet these fucking MPs all seem to want to stop it.
    That's because it isn't a reasonable deal.

    If it were reasonable, she'd be able to convince anyone whose job didn't depend on voting for it.

    I understand you guys, I really do.

    Nabavi, Big G, Carlotta... Y'all thought that as saboteurs, May was going to lead us to the BRINO promised land.

    But... you miscalculated. You underestimated May's total lack of talent for any of the skills required to pull this off. And now you're left holding a deal nobody wants, defending a failed husk of a PM, and all around you opposition to this deal is growing by the day.

    But there is still a way out for you. Let May go, she's no longer useful to you saboteurs as a going concern. You wanna frustrate the will of the people, it's time to start thinking bigger.
    I am afraid that if the idiocy of these hard Brexit purists leads to a reversal of the referendum result - as is very likely - it is you and these Tory backbenchers who will be responsible for frustrating the will of the people.
    I think that is right. Despite the personal problems Brexit causes for me I was happy to respect the result. After the utter nonsense of the past week I now look forward to Britain never leaving the EU and giving all the credit to the ERG.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    DanSmith said:

    May's deal gets voted down, everyone tries to get their alternative to happen. If they can find a majority in parliament, bob's your uncle, but if they fail, another vote in Jan/Feb on May's deal where it really is a case of Deal or No Deal would see it through Parliament pretty easily.

    Is there not some paliamentary convention that prevents a measure that has been voted down from being re-presented in the same parliament?
    For public bills, if they're voted down at second or third reading, they can't be reintroduced in the same parliamentary session.

    But: this isn't a bill, this is a Meaningful Vote, and the legislation that provides for it unhelpfully says nothing about what should happen next should the vote fail to carry.
  • matt said:

    Obsessives failing to see the bigger picture should not be a surprise.

    The majority of anti deal seem to think this should have been the deal itself and do not recognise the process.

    Also on full view were the two extremes attacking the deal from polar opposites, each with an agenda for no deal or remain

    Impossible to square the circle but this time next year the ERG will be crying into their beer as their dream of Brexit, which they once had, disappears into oblivion.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,700
    edited November 2018
    felix said:

    I think that is right. Despite the personal problems Brexit causes for me I was happy to respect the result. After the utter nonsense of the past week I now look forward to Britain never leaving the EU and giving all the credit to the ERG.

    That was the thread I nearly wrote last weekend.

    I do fear violence on the street if Brexit isn't delivered though, especially with UKIP now being the political wing of the EDL.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    DanSmith said:

    May's deal gets voted down, everyone tries to get their alternative to happen. If they can find a majority in parliament, bob's your uncle, but if they fail, another vote in Jan/Feb on May's deal where it really is a case of Deal or No Deal would see it through Parliament pretty easily.

    Is there not some paliamentary convention that prevents a measure that has been voted down from being re-presented in the same parliament?
    For public bills, if they're voted down at second or third reading, they can't be reintroduced in the same parliamentary session.

    But: this isn't a bill, this is a Meaningful Vote, and the legislation that provides for it unhelpfully says nothing about what should happen next should the vote fail to carry.
    Ah, thank-you. And does the govenment have to take any notice of a meaningful vote? I.e. could they just say "yeah, thanks for that but we're going to sign the deal anyway"?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    +1

    It's about time the people felt the cold hard smack of What They Asked For.
    You're both masochists (by proxy).
    I'd rather voters think policies were a bit naff than think democracy was a bit naff.

    There were two opportunities for the voters to ensure that No Deal wouldn't happen, by voting Remain in 2016 or Lib Dem, Green, PC, SNP and others in 2017.
    Government by referendum is a stupid idea, but this is apparently where we are. We asked the people, we told them what would happen, and the daft fuckers wanted it anyway.

    So we should give it to them.

    Oh how we should give it to them.

    Drink deep, for your suffering tastes of democracy.
  • Raab: 'top reason people vote leave was take back control of laws.'

    Utter tosh.

    Migration was the top issue by a country mile.

    Migration is a sub set of taking back control of laws from the EU.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    felix said:

    I think that is right. Despite the personal problems Brexit causes for me I was happy to respect the result. After the utter nonsense of the past week I now look forward to Britain never leaving the EU and giving all the credit to the ERG.

    That was the thread I nearly wrote last weekend.

    I do fear violence on the street if Brexit isn't delivered though, especially with UKIP being the political wing of the EDL.
    I for once promise to happy slap any gammon that I meet.
  • My biggest criticism of May throughout the entire negotiation process is her belief that by running out the clock she could get parliament to agree to any deal she put forward. For that reasoning alone she deserves to fail.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    edited November 2018

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
    Now you've just reminded me how well run the country was while Blair was PM compared with the fucking mess Cameron and May have made of it.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    DanSmith said:

    May's deal gets voted down, everyone tries to get their alternative to happen. If they can find a majority in parliament, bob's your uncle, but if they fail, another vote in Jan/Feb on May's deal where it really is a case of Deal or No Deal would see it through Parliament pretty easily.

    Is there not some paliamentary convention that prevents a measure that has been voted down from being re-presented in the same parliament?
    For public bills, if they're voted down at second or third reading, they can't be reintroduced in the same parliamentary session.

    But: this isn't a bill, this is a Meaningful Vote, and the legislation that provides for it unhelpfully says nothing about what should happen next should the vote fail to carry.
    Ah, thank-you. And does the govenment have to take any notice of a meaningful vote? I.e. could they just say "yeah, thanks for that but we're going to sign the deal anyway"?
    No, the act is very clear that the Meaningful Vote must pass before the government can ratify the deal. So if the MV fails, the legislation providing for it just sort of gets stuck.
  • Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
    Now you've just reminded me how well run the country was while Blair was PM compared with the fucking mess Cameron and May have made of it.
    Unless you were an Iraqi.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    My biggest criticism of May throughout the entire negotiation process is her belief that by running out the clock she could get parliament to agree to any deal she put forward. For that reasoning alone she deserves to fail.

    Trouble is, she fails - we all pay the price.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
    Now you've just reminded me how well run the country was while Blair was PM compared with the fucking mess Cameron and May have made of it.
    Blair caused most of the problems were dealing with now
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    DanSmith said:

    May's deal gets voted down, everyone tries to get their alternative to happen. If they can find a majority in parliament, bob's your uncle, but if they fail, another vote in Jan/Feb on May's deal where it really is a case of Deal or No Deal would see it through Parliament pretty easily.

    Is there not some paliamentary convention that prevents a measure that has been voted down from being re-presented in the same parliament?
    For public bills, if they're voted down at second or third reading, they can't be reintroduced in the same parliamentary session.

    But: this isn't a bill, this is a Meaningful Vote, and the legislation that provides for it unhelpfully says nothing about what should happen next should the vote fail to carry.
    Ah, thank-you. And does the govenment have to take any notice of a meaningful vote? I.e. could they just say "yeah, thanks for that but we're going to sign the deal anyway"?
    No, the act is very clear that the Meaningful Vote must pass before the government can ratify the deal. So if the MV fails, the legislation providing for it just sort of gets stuck.
    Ok thanks once again.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
    Now you've just reminded me how well run the country was while Blair was PM compared with the fucking mess Cameron and May have made of it.
    Unless you were an Iraqi.
    Nobody got harmed during Blair's reign.

    Nobody we know or care about anyway.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited November 2018
    You can't increase fule

    as any fule kno
  • DanSmith said:

    May's deal gets voted down, everyone tries to get their alternative to happen. If they can find a majority in parliament, bob's your uncle, but if they fail, another vote in Jan/Feb on May's deal where it really is a case of Deal or No Deal would see it through Parliament pretty easily.

    Is there not some paliamentary convention that prevents a measure that has been voted down from being re-presented in the same parliament?
    For public bills, if they're voted down at second or third reading, they can't be reintroduced in the same parliamentary session.

    But: this isn't a bill, this is a Meaningful Vote, and the legislation that provides for it unhelpfully says nothing about what should happen next should the vote fail to carry.
    So an amended Meaningful Vote does not make a law.
  • Nonsense isn't limited to one side, mind:

    Paul Williams, a Labour MP and GP, says patients will be worse off under Brexit. As members of the EU, patients get early access to drugs because the UK is part of the European Medicines Agency. But he says the document just talks about the possibility of cooperating with the EMA.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
    Now you've just reminded me how well run the country was while Blair was PM compared with the fucking mess Cameron and May have made of it.
    Unless you were an Iraqi.
    The country = UK in my comment, clearly.

    The Iraq war was a massive mistake and Blair's reputation was irretrievably tarnished as a result...

    ...but he'd still have made a much better fist of Brexit than Cameron/May have done - by a country mile.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    felix said:

    I think that is right. Despite the personal problems Brexit causes for me I was happy to respect the result. After the utter nonsense of the past week I now look forward to Britain never leaving the EU and giving all the credit to the ERG.

    That was the thread I nearly wrote last weekend.

    I do fear violence on the street if Brexit isn't delivered though, especially with UKIP now being the political wing of the EDL.
    Given that most people appear to be weary of Brexit and just want the politicians to sort something out, I doubt that they could be motivated to violence. Most people just do not care.

    It is always those on the extremes who threaten violence if they fail to get their way. They are usually called terrorists.
  • The country = UK in my comment, clearly.

    The Iraq war was a massive mistake and Blair's reputation was irretrievably tarnished as a result...

    ...but he'd still have made a much better fist of Brexit than Cameron/May have done - by a country mile.

    Like he did with his brilliant negotiation on Maggie's rebate, giving away half of it for... err.. well... err..
  • The country = UK in my comment, clearly.

    The Iraq war was a massive mistake and Blair's reputation was irretrievably tarnished as a result...

    ...but he'd still have made a much better fist of Brexit than Cameron/May have done - by a country mile.

    Like he did with his brilliant negotiation on Maggie's rebate, giving away half of it for... err.. well... err..
    In exchange for looking into the possibility of revising somewhat the Common Agricultural Policy.
  • Remember when she said no snap election, many many times.
  • currystar said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    Exactly, how these idiots asking questions think they could do any better is beyond me. We voted to leave, she has come up with a reasonable deal which should see minimum disruption, yet these fucking MPs all seem to want to stop it.
    That's because it isn't a reasonable deal.

    If it were reasonable, she'd be able to convince anyone whose job didn't depend on voting for it.

    I understand you guys, I really do.

    Nabavi, Big G, Carlotta... Y'all thought that as saboteurs, May was going to lead us to the BRINO promised land.

    But... you miscalculated. You underestimated May's total lack of talent for any of the skills required to pull this off. And now you're left holding a deal nobody wants, defending a failed husk of a PM, and all around you opposition to this deal is growing by the day.

    But there is still a way out for you. Let May go, she's no longer useful to you saboteurs as a going concern. You wanna frustrate the will of the people, it's time to start thinking bigger.
    I am afraid that if the idiocy of these hard Brexit purists leads to a reversal of the referendum result - as is very likely - it is you and these Tory backbenchers who will be responsible for frustrating the will of the people.
    How many times is it necessary to point out that the 'will' was only that of just over half of the people.
    Which is why a hard Brexit would be almost as unrepresentative as no Brexit
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    DanSmith said:

    May's deal gets voted down, everyone tries to get their alternative to happen. If they can find a majority in parliament, bob's your uncle, but if they fail, another vote in Jan/Feb on May's deal where it really is a case of Deal or No Deal would see it through Parliament pretty easily.

    Is there not some paliamentary convention that prevents a measure that has been voted down from being re-presented in the same parliament?
    For public bills, if they're voted down at second or third reading, they can't be reintroduced in the same parliamentary session.

    But: this isn't a bill, this is a Meaningful Vote, and the legislation that provides for it unhelpfully says nothing about what should happen next should the vote fail to carry.
    So an amended Meaningful Vote does not make a law.
    The final text of the act says that a minister of the crown must move a motion in neutral terms, to the effect that the House of Commons has considered the matter of the statement mentioned in subsection. This seems to be a one-time thing.

    It doesn't provide for the government to ask the House to keep voting until it gets the correct answer.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,676

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    But that does not mean that we should do it.
    It does if you either want us to leave the EU, or want to respect the result of the referendum.
    The most respectful outcome is to ask the public, "we have discovered that can only exit the EU with significant economic or democratic cost. Do you still want to do it?"

    The referendum was about taking back control, the deal does the opposite of that and therefore does not respect the result.

    A second vote gives control back to the public.
    "Oh hello yes, we're the government, and we think you're too thick to really understand the question we asked you the first time. Think carefully this time, you thickie! ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE?"
    Bollox. The government and the rest of us have learned a whole heap of new information. In the light of that it is perfectly normal to think again.

    If you put a deposit on a car and get it inspected by the AA and they find the engine knackered, most people walk away. Brexiteers are like salesman trying to secure the sale of a total pup.
  • Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
    Now you've just reminded me how well run the country was while Blair was PM compared with the fucking mess Cameron and May have made of it.
    Unless you were an Iraqi.
    The country = UK in my comment, clearly.

    The Iraq war was a massive mistake and Blair's reputation was irretrievably tarnished as a result...

    ...but he'd still have made a much better fist of Brexit than Cameron/May have done - by a country mile.
    I don't think he could have done, because he is so opposed.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Rule 1: May lies
    Rule 2: ...badly
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Well yes as the only route to a new referendum is following Parliament rejecting her deal.

    She can't continue as PM if her deal is rejected as it's basically a vote of no confidence in her leadership.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr cocque,

    "We asked the people, we told them what would happen, and the daft fuckers wanted it anyway. So we should give it to them."

    Unfortunately, what is happening is "We don't need to ask the people because we know better. We'd have got away with it if it hadn't been for those pesky voters in a referendum which should never have been allowed to happen." That's a rough approximation of the stated LD policy position, but it fits many MPs.
  • Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
    Now you've just reminded me how well run the country was while Blair was PM compared with the fucking mess Cameron and May have made of it.
    Unless you were an Iraqi.
    The country = UK in my comment, clearly.

    The Iraq war was a massive mistake and Blair's reputation was irretrievably tarnished as a result...

    ...but he'd still have made a much better fist of Brexit than Cameron/May have done - by a country mile.
    You mean when he gave away Thatcher's rebate for SFA?
  • Remember when she said no snap election, many many times.
    If she removes this as an option, then she will have to come up with some other reason to extend A50 when the HoC rejects her deal. The EU seem to be saying only a GE or a new ref would be sufficient conditions for them to allow an extension, now it has been triggered.

    Triggering A50 before she flushed out how many purist loons, who would reduce the country to a wreck for their unicorn hunt, there were on her own backbench is now looking even more stupid.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
    Now you've just reminded me how well run the country was while Blair was PM compared with the fucking mess Cameron and May have made of it.
    Unless you were an Iraqi.
    Nobody got harmed during Blair's reign.

    Nobody we know or care about anyway.
    Dr Kelly?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have a major problem with conforming to EU law, without either a say in shaping it or a bulletproof independent way out.

    So do I. Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
    Well quite. But for that reason 'the deal' is a no-no for me.
    Sure, but that doesn't alter the fact that the alternatives are either 'no deal' or cancelling Brexit. What she has come up with is about the best implementation of Brexit attainable.
    But that does not mean that we should do it.
    It does if you either want us to leave the EU, or want to respect the result of the referendum.
    The most respectful outcome is to ask the public, "we have discovered that can only exit the EU with significant economic or democratic cost. Do you still want to do it?"

    The referendum was about taking back control, the deal does the opposite of that and therefore does not respect the result.

    A second vote gives control back to the public.
    "Oh hello yes, we're the government, and we think you're too thick to really understand the question we asked you the first time. Think carefully this time, you thickie! ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE?"
    Bollox. The government and the rest of us have learned a whole heap of new information. In the light of that it is perfectly normal to think again.

    If you put a deposit on a car and get it inspected by the AA and they find the engine knackered, most people walk away. Brexiteers are like salesman trying to secure the sale of a total pup.
    We haven't learned any new information. The full horrific economic and human cost of a hard brexit was explained *in excruciating detail* by the Remain camp before the referendum, and the great unhosed still want it.

    And no, "I listened to David Davis because I am a very stupid man" will also not get me to take pity on you.

    The electorate made their Hard Brexit bed, let them lie in it.
  • GIN1138 said:


    Dr Kelly?

    That was the fault of the BBC.

    Have you forgotten about the brilliant Hutton inquiry?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
    Now you've just reminded me how well run the country was while Blair was PM compared with the fucking mess Cameron and May have made of it.
    Unless you were an Iraqi.
    The country = UK in my comment, clearly.

    The Iraq war was a massive mistake and Blair's reputation was irretrievably tarnished as a result...

    ...but he'd still have made a much better fist of Brexit than Cameron/May have done - by a country mile.
    the man who got taken to the cleaners by Chirac ? LOL
  • eekeek Posts: 28,412
    Someone is very sure Boris will not be the next Tory leader as they are laying £80,000 on Betfair at 9 on that event not occurring.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    GIN1138 said:


    Dr Kelly?

    That was the fault of the BBC.

    Have you forgotten about the brilliant Hutton inquiry?
    You know, enough time has passed between now and the Blair era that I sometimes struggle to remember what was real and what was Malcolm Tucker.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    eek said:

    Someone is very sure Boris will not be the next Tory leader as they are laying £80,000 on Betfair at 9 on that event not occurring.

    Stanley Johnson? :D
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705

    Sean_Fear said:

    Jonathan said:

    I am tired of the blackmail arguments from May

    Do my deal or

    1) No deal is inevitable*
    2) No Brexit is inevitable*

    (delete whichever you fear least)

    She's not saying that. She's saying that either of those could easily be the outcome, which is true enough. There are no other possibilities.
    Everything turns on how many Remainers would prefer a crash out Brexit (because it would teach their opponents a lesson) and how many Brexiters would prefer to remain in the EU (because it would punish the traitors on their own side) to any kind of deal.
    I'm a democrat, I respect the will of the people, they voted to Leave despite being warned No Deal was a risk.

    So if this deal fails, then so be it, we crash out next March.

    Not my fault the Leave voters the ignored the excellent advice of experts.
    As a democrat, you shouldn't be happy with a No Deal crash because that is supported only by a very small percentage of our democratically elected representatives.

    Accidental No Deal is a real danger but it would not be 'democratic'.
    The voters were warned.

    Is like when the Tories warned about Demon Eyes Blair, given the number of dead brown people on his watch and the GFC, we were right, but the voters voted for him anyway.

    We eventually overturned it when we were proven right.
    Now you've just reminded me how well run the country was while Blair was PM compared with the fucking mess Cameron and May have made of it.
    Unless you were an Iraqi.
    The country = UK in my comment, clearly.

    The Iraq war was a massive mistake and Blair's reputation was irretrievably tarnished as a result...

    ...but he'd still have made a much better fist of Brexit than Cameron/May have done - by a country mile.
    You mean when he gave away Thatcher's rebate for SFA?
    You are obviously not very well versed in the UK rebate history. Here's a little easy primer for you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited November 2018
    eek said:

    Someone is very sure Boris will not be the next Tory leader as they are laying £80,000 on Betfair at 9 on that event not occurring.

    Probably Charles. I have always suspected he lights the fire using £50 notes :D
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    GIN1138 said:

    eek said:

    Someone is very sure Boris will not be the next Tory leader as they are laying £80,000 on Betfair at 9 on that event not occurring.

    Stanley Johnson? :D
    BoJo himself?
This discussion has been closed.