Is the deal perfect? No. Was it ever going to be? No.
In summary, we have exchanged 12% of the votes in determining trade policy, goods regulation and the other ‘level playing field’ items in exchange for 100% control over immigration. In a globalised world, the latter seems like a far more substantive power to me.
Idiots like Rees-Mogg and Sam Wilson might ensure that we don’t get it.
You could tell from her demeanor (she's an appalling poker player) that it had been a rough afternoon... Yet there she stood still pretending everything was fine and yet with absolutely no conviction or belief in what she was doing... Just like she did when she returned to Downing St. after blowing Cameron's majority.
I think you may be prejeudiced to be honest
Is that an admission that sometimes you're not?
I like to be fair wherever possible
I did not mean to offend, if I did I apologise.
You did not offend me to be fair. No need to apologise
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
Not Esther? Sounds like fake news.
Suspect Esther was the 2nd Ms Mordaunt
Really?! I thought she was banging some stooge of the betting industry.
So it is make your mind up time.. If the DUP vote down the deal and precipitate a GE I would like to be the first to wish them every good luck in dealing with PM Jeremy Corbyn and his new Secretary of State for The Six Counties( as henceforth it will be known) Gerry Adams.
Just losing thousands of second referendum supporters
I can't see it's worth the risk.
Even if Remain were to be an option on a 2nd ref, and to win (and personally I think that's only a 50/50 chance), Brexit would fester on like an un-lanced boil, UIP resurgent etc.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
I am extremely surprised that Hunt is opposed to this deal or even has reservations about it. The others are just the usual suspects.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
I am extremely surprised that Hunt is opposed to this deal or even has reservations about it. The others are just the usual suspects.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
I am extremely surprised that Hunt is opposed to this deal or even has reservations about it. The others are just the usual suspects.
The behaviour of Hunt, Javid and the other former remainers who know full well that Brexit is a disaster is nauseating, much worse than the ERG who at least have been consistent in their beliefs and held to them over many years, deluded though they are.
It's a sad contrast to the politicians of the past, can you imagine figures such as Michael Foot, Roy Jenkins, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath compromising their deeply held principles to gain short term party advantage? In that era beliefs were sacrosanct and careers were secondary, now it is the other way round and politics is much the poorer for it.
Officials close to Cabinet say Esther McVey is “on the brink” of resigning. They added that she was “shouted down” by the Cabinet Secretary Mark Sedwill after demanding Cabinet voted on the deal. November 14, 2018
2) They know how much carnage there will be in the event of No Deal. A bad deal is better than No Deal.
2)
... and I suspect quite a few who ‘spoke out against it’ were complaining about specific terms which aren’t fundamental to the agreement.
Leavers have two options - either accept this, grudgingly... or risk a tossup between no deal and a referendum which could cancel Brexit, or result in no deal. No deal might be acceptable to the headbangers, but the retribution from the 80 or 90% of the country who don’t think that way would be severe.
People’s Voters face the same choice - and the likelihood of their desired outcome (a second referendum reversing the Brexit choice) is very, very low - and similar retribution. (Although their case for a ranked choice referendum vote over the three options is slightly more justifiable.)
No doubt we’ll find out over the next couple of days just how poor the deal offered is (or isn’t).
I've read an executive summary by a junior, not massively in favour, however, I'd still vote for it were I a Tory MP. Brexit is better than Corbyn and no Brexit.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
Is the deal perfect? No. Was it ever going to be? No.
In summary, we have exchanged 12% of the votes in determining trade policy, goods regulation and the other ‘level playing field’ items in exchange for 100% control over immigration. In a globalised world, the latter seems like a far more substantive power to me.
Idiots like Rees-Mogg and Sam Wilson might ensure that we don’t get it.
Yes. Though I can understand Wilson more. It’s a huge ask for them.
Overall if anything it’s a bit better than I was anticipating. Not hanging out the bunting but it’s liveable with.
Better than no deal, from this point, or a second referendum which would engender bitterness lasting years ( we’ve got to implement the firstbone first), and would merely fire the starting gun for rebound three, if Leave lost.
Officials close to Cabinet say Esther McVey is “on the brink” of resigning. They added that she was “shouted down” by the Cabinet Secretary Mark Sedwill after demanding Cabinet voted on the deal. November 14, 2018
Bottom line is, if Brexit's about immigration, then this is a superb deal.
If it's about sovereignty, it's not good, in fact it's bloody awful, but it has the potential to be adapted gradually over time in a less painful manner and is therefore acceptable.
If it's about internal party politics of the Tories, it's an unmitigated fiasco.
If it's to watch Labour and the Liberal Democrats contort on the hook of their own hypocrisy, it's funny.
But the key thing people need to grasp is it is this, or it is leave with no deal. That on its own should be enough for Remainers to support it. And the fact that we are leaving should see Brexiteers by and large accept it.
Yes, the Farages and Blairs and Rees Moggs and Sturgeons will stamp and shout and scream and generally behave like spoiled three year olds. But I think the country will ultimately back it.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
I've read an executive summary by a junior, not massively in favour, however, I'd still vote for it were I a Tory MP. Brexit is better than Corbyn and no Brexit.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
And if they don't quit in the morning that means jack squat.
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
I am extremely surprised that Hunt is opposed to this deal or even has reservations about it. The others are just the usual suspects.
The behaviour of Hunt, Javid and the other former remainers who know full well that Brexit is a disaster is nauseating, much worse than the ERG who at least have been consistent in their beliefs and held to them over many years, deluded though they are.
It's a sad contrast to the politicians of the past, can you imagine figures such as Michael Foot, Roy Jenkins, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath compromising their deeply held principles to gain short term party advantage? In that era beliefs were sacrosanct and careers were secondary, now it is the other way round and politics is much the poorer for it.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
"In summary, we have exchanged 12% of the votes in determining trade policy, goods regulation and the other ‘level playing field’ items in exchange for 100% control over immigration."
Have we? Forgive my ignorance but I've not seen anything on any TV channel about FOM.
It's a sad contrast to the politicians of the past, can you imagine figures such as Michael Foot, Roy Jenkins, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath compromising their deeply held principles to gain short term party advantage?
Bottom line is, if Brexit's about immigration, then this is a superb deal.
If it's about sovereignty, it's not good, in fact it's bloody awful, but it has the potential to be adapted gradually over time in a less painful manner and is therefore acceptable.
If it's about internal party politics of the Tories, it's an unmitigated fiasco.
If it's to watch Labour and the Liberal Democrats contort on the hook of their own hypocrisy, it's funny.
But the key thing people need to grasp is it is this, or it is leave with no deal. That on its own should be enough for Remainers to support it. And the fact that we are leaving should see Brexiteers by and large accept it.
Yes, the Farages and Blairs and Rees Moggs and Sturgeons will stamp and shout and scream and generally behave like spoiled three year olds. But I think the country will ultimately back it.
Officials close to Cabinet say Esther McVey is “on the brink” of resigning. They added that she was “shouted down” by the Cabinet Secretary Mark Sedwill after demanding Cabinet voted on the deal. November 14, 2018
Oh, May, May, why didn't you get rid of her the other day when you had the chance? You lost a Minister of integrity and ability to keep this chancer for a few brief hours. Why, oh why?
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
Criticising the deal could appeal to both leavers and remainers.
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
Officials close to Cabinet say Esther McVey is “on the brink” of resigning. They added that she was “shouted down” by the Cabinet Secretary Mark Sedwill after demanding Cabinet voted on the deal. November 14, 2018
Off you pop then....
Tantric sex may be fun, but tantric resignations are just tiresome.
Is the deal perfect? No. Was it ever going to be? No.
In summary, we have exchanged 12% of the votes in determining trade policy, goods regulation and the other ‘level playing field’ items in exchange for 100% control over immigration. In a globalised world, the latter seems like a far more substantive power to me.
Idiots like Rees-Mogg and Sam Wilson might ensure that we don’t get it.
Yes. Though I can understand Wilson more. It’s a huge ask for them.
Overall if anything it’s a bit better than I was anticipating. Not hanging out the bunting but it’s liveable with.
Better than no deal, from this point, or a second referendum which would engender bitterness lasting years ( we’ve got to implement the firstbone first), and would merely fire the starting gun for rebound three, if Leave lost.
As a Remainer, I agree. This is probably the best we can hope for given there has not been a sea-change in public opinion re Brexit.
Interesting that most on here, from both sides, seem prepared to accept this and move on.
Just reached NI section. So far, I don’t see anything that really chafes.
It’s going to pass.
Of course, we haven't considered one scenario. We've spoken of Sinn Fein taking their seats to back Corbyn. What if they panic and take the oath to back this deal, which for them is an excellent deal?
The irony would be delicious and the effect on both the Tories and Labour cataclysmic...
You could tell from her demeanor (she's an appalling poker player) that it had been a rough afternoon... Yet there she stood still pretending everything was fine and yet with absolutely no conviction or belief in what she was doing... Just like she did when she returned to Downing St. after blowing Cameron's majority.
I think you may be prejeudiced to be honest
Is that an admission that sometimes you're not?
I like to be fair wherever possible
I did not mean to offend, if I did I apologise.
You did not offend me to be fair. No need to apologise
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
There is no way Theresa May or any other conservative agrees to extend FoM. Although it is the one part of the single market Corbyn likes.
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
Criticising the deal could appeal to both leavers and remainers.
It is much more likely to seriously piss off most of them.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
I thought it was a secret who voted which way.
Perhaps it was a secret that it was secret
They didn’t have a vote
McVey doesn’t understand how collective responsibility works.
There is a debate and the primus inter pares summarises the consensus
No one votes on the record - makes it far harder to support the consensus
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
A lot of people expected the EU to require freedom of movement in order to unlock the Irish border. We've broken that down and given the UK freedom to agree a long term partnership that reflects that.
There's no overwhelming reason the transition period should continue indefinitely. The EU is against an extension and we'd have to pay into the budget. We probably rather have the backstop for any period between 1 January 2021 and the partnership coming into being. If not then then in a couple of years for plenty of prep.
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
There is no way Theresa May or any other conservative agrees to extend FoM. Although it is the one part of the single market Corbyn likes.
She’s already done it once. At the start of this process it was going to end in 2019.
Bottom line is, if Brexit's about immigration, then this is a superb deal.
If it's about sovereignty, it's not good, in fact it's bloody awful, but it has the potential to be adapted gradually over time in a less painful manner and is therefore acceptable.
If it's about internal party politics of the Tories, it's an unmitigated fiasco.
If it's to watch Labour and the Liberal Democrats contort on the hook of their own hypocrisy, it's funny.
But the key thing people need to grasp is it is this, or it is leave with no deal. That on its own should be enough for Remainers to support it. And the fact that we are leaving should see Brexiteers by and large accept it.
Yes, the Farages and Blairs and Rees Moggs and Sturgeons will stamp and shout and scream and generally behave like spoiled three year olds. But I think the country will ultimately back it.
If MaxPB and welshowl back it (however reluctantly), I’d guess that means at least three quarters of Brexiteers will. And a similar proportion of Remainers.
Can Parliament risk pissing off that many voters ?
Bottom line is, if Brexit's about immigration, then this is a superb deal.
If it's about sovereignty, it's not good, in fact it's bloody awful, but it has the potential to be adapted gradually over time in a less painful manner and is therefore acceptable.
If it's about internal party politics of the Tories, it's an unmitigated fiasco.
If it's to watch Labour and the Liberal Democrats contort on the hook of their own hypocrisy, it's funny.
But the key thing people need to grasp is it is this, or it is leave with no deal. That on its own should be enough for Remainers to support it. And the fact that we are leaving should see Brexiteers by and large accept it.
Yes, the Farages and Blairs and Rees Moggs and Sturgeons will stamp and shout and scream and generally behave like spoiled three year olds. But I think the country will ultimately back it.
Under this deal we get sovereingty for non-economic matters and 80% of economic matters. How is that "bloody awful"?
Officials close to Cabinet say Esther McVey is “on the brink” of resigning. They added that she was “shouted down” by the Cabinet Secretary Mark Sedwill after demanding Cabinet voted on the deal. November 14, 2018
Oh, May, May, why didn't you get rid of her the other day when you had the chance? You lost a Minister of integrity and ability to keep this chancer for a few brief hours. Why, oh why?
Because dear friend, Theresa may have some good qualities (resilience, a sense of duty, etc.) but she has piss-poor judgement.
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
A lot of people expected the EU to require freedom of movement in order to unlock the Irish border. We've broken that down and given the UK freedom to agree a long term partnership that reflects that.
There's no overwhelming reason the transition period should continue indefinitely. The EU is against an extension and we'd have to pay into the budget. We probably rather have the backstop for any period between 1 January 2021 and the partnership coming into being. If not then then in a couple of years for plenty of prep.
I think it will become clear that entering into the backstop will represent an economic cliff edge for Great Britain.
2) They know how much carnage there will be in the event of No Deal. A bad deal is better than No Deal.
2)
... and I suspect quite a few who ‘spoke out against it’ were complaining about specific terms which aren’t fundamental to the agreement.
Leavers have two options - either accept this, grudgingly... or risk a tossup between no deal and a referendum which could cancel Brexit, or result in no deal. No deal might be acceptable to the headbangers, but the retribution from the 80 or 90% of the country who don’t think that way would be severe.
People’s Voters face the same choice - and the likelihood of their desired outcome (a second referendum reversing the Brexit choice) is very, very low - and similar retribution. (Although their case for a ranked choice referendum vote over the three options is slightly more justifiable.)
No doubt we’ll find out over the next couple of days just how poor the deal offered is (or isn’t).
Bottom line is, if Brexit's about immigration, then this is a superb deal.
If it's about sovereignty, it's not good, in fact it's bloody awful, but it has the potential to be adapted gradually over time in a less painful manner and is therefore acceptable.
If it's about internal party politics of the Tories, it's an unmitigated fiasco.
If it's to watch Labour and the Liberal Democrats contort on the hook of their own hypocrisy, it's funny.
But the key thing people need to grasp is it is this, or it is leave with no deal. That on its own should be enough for Remainers to support it. And the fact that we are leaving should see Brexiteers by and large accept it.
Yes, the Farages and Blairs and Rees Moggs and Sturgeons will stamp and shout and scream and generally behave like spoiled three year olds. But I think the country will ultimately back it.
If MaxPB and welshowl back it (however reluctantly), I’d guess that means at least three quarters of Brexiteers will. And a similar proportion of Remainers.
Can Parliament risk pissing off that many voters ?
Yes, because they believe pushing for no deal/new deal/remain will piss off fewer voters if they succeed.
Is the deal perfect? No. Was it ever going to be? No.
In summary, we have exchanged 12% of the votes in determining trade policy, goods regulation and the other ‘level playing field’ items in exchange for 100% control over immigration. In a globalised world, the latter seems like a far more substantive power to me.
Idiots like Rees-Mogg and Sam Wilson might ensure that we don’t get it.
Yes. Though I can understand Wilson more. It’s a huge ask for them.
Overall if anything it’s a bit better than I was anticipating. Not hanging out the bunting but it’s liveable with.
Better than no deal, from this point, or a second referendum which would engender bitterness lasting years ( we’ve got to implement the firstbone first), and would merely fire the starting gun for rebound three, if Leave lost.
As a Remainer, I agree. This is probably the best we can hope for given there has not been a sea-change in public opinion re Brexit.
Interesting that most on here, from both sides, seem prepared to accept this and move on.
Normal people are pragmatic and realise any deal was never going to be perfect.
Bottom line is, if Brexit's about immigration, then this is a superb deal.
If it's about sovereignty, it's not good, in fact it's bloody awful, but it has the potential to be adapted gradually over time in a less painful manner and is therefore acceptable.
If it's about internal party politics of the Tories, it's an unmitigated fiasco.
If it's to watch Labour and the Liberal Democrats contort on the hook of their own hypocrisy, it's funny.
But the key thing people need to grasp is it is this, or it is leave with no deal. That on its own should be enough for Remainers to support it. And the fact that we are leaving should see Brexiteers by and large accept it.
Yes, the Farages and Blairs and Rees Moggs and Sturgeons will stamp and shout and scream and generally behave like spoiled three year olds. But I think the country will ultimately back it.
If MaxPB and welshowl back it (however reluctantly), I’d guess that means at least three quarters of Brexiteers will. And a similar proportion of Remainers.
Can Parliament risk pissing off that many voters ?
They can risk it.
In the same way that England's batsmen can risk playing shots on a turning wicket against a spinner.
Is the deal perfect? No. Was it ever going to be? No.
In summary, we have exchanged 12% of the votes in determining trade policy, goods regulation and the other ‘level playing field’ items in exchange for 100% control over immigration. In a globalised world, the latter seems like a far more substantive power to me.
Idiots like Rees-Mogg and Sam Wilson might ensure that we don’t get it.
Yes. Though I can understand Wilson more. It’s a huge ask for them.
Overall if anything it’s a bit better than I was anticipating. Not hanging out the bunting but it’s liveable with.
Better than no deal, from this point, or a second referendum which would engender bitterness lasting years ( we’ve got to implement the firstbone first), and would merely fire the starting gun for rebound three, if Leave lost.
As a Remainer, I agree. This is probably the best we can hope for given there has not been a sea-change in public opinion re Brexit.
Interesting that most on here, from both sides, seem prepared to accept this and move on.
For once weekend polls might be very influential here. If Joe Public is seen to be in tune with many on here and shows big numbers taking the line “it’ll do, move on”, might hopefully concentrate a few minds in the HoC. (Well I can hope!)
Officials close to Cabinet say Esther McVey is “on the brink” of resigning. They added that she was “shouted down” by the Cabinet Secretary Mark Sedwill after demanding Cabinet voted on the deal. November 14, 2018
Oh, May, May, why didn't you get rid of her the other day when you had the chance? You lost a Minister of integrity and ability to keep this chancer for a few brief hours. Why, oh why?
Because dear friend, Theresa may have some good qualities (resilience, a sense of duty, etc.) but she has piss-poor judgement.
TBF, my Labour voting sparring partner, that seems a very apt summary.
Laura Kuenssberg Verified account @bbclaurak 1m1 minute ago
Cabinet did reach a collective position, but certainly not unanimous. I'm told 9 ministers spoke against the agreement - Fox, Hunt, Williamson, Penny Mordaunt, Javid, Leadsom, Evans, Mordaunt and Grayling.
I am extremely surprised that Hunt is opposed to this deal or even has reservations about it. The others are just the usual suspects.
The behaviour of Hunt, Javid and the other former remainers who know full well that Brexit is a disaster is nauseating, much worse than the ERG who at least have been consistent in their beliefs and held to them over many years, deluded though they are.
It's a sad contrast to the politicians of the past, can you imagine figures such as Michael Foot, Roy Jenkins, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath compromising their deeply held principles to gain short term party advantage? In that era beliefs were sacrosanct and careers were secondary, now it is the other way round and politics is much the poorer for it.
Bottom line is, if Brexit's about immigration, then this is a superb deal.
If it's about sovereignty, it's not good, in fact it's bloody awful, but it has the potential to be adapted gradually over time in a less painful manner and is therefore acceptable.
If it's about internal party politics of the Tories, it's an unmitigated fiasco.
If it's to watch Labour and the Liberal Democrats contort on the hook of their own hypocrisy, it's funny.
But the key thing people need to grasp is it is this, or it is leave with no deal. That on its own should be enough for Remainers to support it. And the fact that we are leaving should see Brexiteers by and large accept it.
Yes, the Farages and Blairs and Rees Moggs and Sturgeons will stamp and shout and scream and generally behave like spoiled three year olds. But I think the country will ultimately back it.
If MaxPB and welshowl back it (however reluctantly), I’d guess that means at least three quarters of Brexiteers will. And a similar proportion of Remainers.
Can Parliament risk pissing off that many voters ?
I think the line taken by the press will be important. If a majority of the Mail, Express, Sun and Telegrpah support the deal, that will sway a lot of wavering MPs.
Is the deal perfect? No. Was it ever going to be? No.
In summary, we have exchanged 12% of the votes in determining trade policy, goods regulation and the other ‘level playing field’ items in exchange for 100% control over immigration. In a globalised world, the latter seems like a far more substantive power to me.
Idiots like Rees-Mogg and Sam Wilson might ensure that we don’t get it.
Yes. Though I can understand Wilson more. It’s a huge ask for them.
Overall if anything it’s a bit better than I was anticipating. Not hanging out the bunting but it’s liveable with.
Better than no deal, from this point, or a second referendum which would engender bitterness lasting years ( we’ve got to implement the firstbone first), and would merely fire the starting gun for rebound three, if Leave lost.
As a Remainer, I agree. This is probably the best we can hope for given there has not been a sea-change in public opinion re Brexit.
Interesting that most on here, from both sides, seem prepared to accept this and move on.
For once weekend polls might be very influential here. If Joe Public is seen to be in tune with many on here and shows big numbers taking the line “it’ll do, move on”, might hopefully concentrate a few minds in the HoC. (Well I can hope!)
2) They know how much carnage there will be in the event of No Deal. A bad deal is better than No Deal.
2)
... and I suspect quite a few who ‘spoke out against it’ were complaining about specific terms which aren’t fundamental to the agreement.
Leavers have two options - either accept this, grudgingly... or risk a tossup between no deal and a referendum which could cancel Brexit, or result in no deal. No deal might be acceptable to the headbangers, but the retribution from the 80 or 90% of the country who don’t think that way would be severe.
People’s Voters face the same choice - and the likelihood of their desired outcome (a second referendum reversing the Brexit choice) is very, very low - and similar retribution. (Although their case for a ranked choice referendum vote over the three options is slightly more justifiable.)
No doubt we’ll find out over the next couple of days just how poor the deal offered is (or isn’t).
It's in relation to Northern Ireland. Which seems far enough to me.
Ah, so the border is in the sea then.
Goods and services will flow freely across the Irish sea.
If you are determined to find a border you will find one. For example if you think compliance with EU state aid rules is a burden, well, that burden will exist in NI but not the rUK. If that's a border it's a border but it's certainly not the central case of a border.
D'y'know, it's amazing. Our happy little band encompasses hard Remain to hard Leave, but everybody seems happy with this deal. It's only the f*****g politicians who seem to have a problem with it.
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
A lot of people expected the EU to require freedom of movement in order to unlock the Irish border. We've broken that down and given the UK freedom to agree a long term partnership that reflects that.
There's no overwhelming reason the transition period should continue indefinitely. The EU is against an extension and we'd have to pay into the budget. We probably rather have the backstop for any period between 1 January 2021 and the partnership coming into being. If not then then in a couple of years for plenty of prep.
I think it will become clear that entering into the backstop will represent an economic cliff edge for Great Britain.
I think this is just semantics in the end. Whether the "deal" ends FoM or only the PM on 1 January 2021 can "end" it is really neither here nor there.
D'y'know, it's amazing. Our happy little band encompasses hard Remain to hard Leave, but everybody seems happy with this deal. It's only the f*****g politicians who seem to have a problem with it.
And to add to the purrs of agreement, I am happy with it.
So you're a disgruntled cabinet minister. How long after the cabinet meeting can you wait before resigning and still look credible?
Two hours.
If they're still there at the time the big dailies go to press, they're stuffed if they then resign.
It took Boris all weekend to realise the words stuck in his mouth.
But tbf that only proves your point!
Took the Duke of Devonshire even longer than that in 1903. Cost him forty years of carefully nurtured public approbation. Eventually his error of judgement ruined his health and he died a broken man in 1908.
D'y'know, it's amazing. Our happy little band encompasses hard Remain to hard Leave, but everybody seems happy with this deal. It's only the f*****g politicians who seem to have a problem with it.
Yes, but we care about reality rather than posturing. Nobody votes for us, except for PB Poster of the Year.
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
Oh dear, if the government can't at the very least say on X date it ends no ifs no buts, then I can't support the deal.
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
Oh dear, if the government can't at the very least say on X date it ends no ifs no buts, then I can't support the deal.
Barnier said it can be extended once.
That suggests a final date - at the latest - of 2022.
We've spoken of Sinn Fein taking their seats to back Corbyn. What if they panic and take the oath to back this deal, which for them is an excellent deal?
D'y'know, it's amazing. Our happy little band encompasses hard Remain to hard Leave, but everybody seems happy with this deal. It's only the f*****g politicians who seem to have a problem with it.
In their slight defence the responsibility of agreeing it or not does fall on them, and I do not doubt that is a heavy burden, albeit one they have willingly taken upon themselves, which puts many of them into internally contradictory positions.
Nevertheless, a lot of them still seem to be coming at this from a position of 'Will this stop/help party x remain/gain in power?' which is despicable. Hating Corbyn or hating the Tories is not something one can just put aside, but cannot be an excuse to vote for or against a deal which otherwise they could not support or reject, as the case may be.
D'y'know, it's amazing. Our happy little band encompasses hard Remain to hard Leave, but everybody seems happy with this deal. It's only the f*****g politicians who seem to have a problem with it.
Yes, but we care about reality rather than posturing. Nobody votes for us, except for PB Poster of the Year.
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
Oh dear, if the government can't at the very least say on X date it ends no ifs no buts, then I can't support the deal.
If the transition deal were not extendable, then FoM would end 1 January 2021.
We have got the right but not the obligation to extend it and both sides have to agree. I do not see that having such a right makes the UK's position worse. It can only strengthen it.
We've spoken of Sinn Fein taking their seats to back Corbyn. What if they panic and take the oath to back this deal, which for them is an excellent deal?
Sinn Fein won't sit.
You have to walk to vote, so they wouldn't have to sit.
(Yes, seriously, I know. I was being mischievous. It would be the funniest thing in politics since John Prescott was caught with his trousers down.)
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
Oh dear, if the government can't at the very least say on X date it ends no ifs no buts, then I can't support the deal.
Barnier said it can be extended once.
That suggests a final date - at the latest - of 2022.
We've spoken of Sinn Fein taking their seats to back Corbyn. What if they panic and take the oath to back this deal, which for them is an excellent deal?
2) They know how much carnage there will be in the event of No Deal. A bad deal is better than No Deal.
2)
... and I suspect quite a few who ‘spoke out against it’ were complaining about specific terms which aren’t fundamental to the agreement.
Leavers have two options - either accept this, grudgingly... or risk a tossup between no deal and a referendum which could cancel Brexit, or result in no deal. No deal might be acceptable to the headbangers, but the retribution from the 80 or 90% of the country who don’t think that way would be severe.
People’s Voters face the same choice - and the likelihood of their desired outcome (a second referendum reversing the Brexit choice) is very, very low - and similar retribution. (Although their case for a ranked choice referendum vote over the three options is slightly more justifiable.)
No doubt we’ll find out over the next couple of days just how poor the deal offered is (or isn’t).
It's in relation to Northern Ireland. Which seems far enough to me.
Ah, so the border is in the sea then.
Goods and services will flow freely across the Irish sea.
If you are determined to find a border you will find one. For example if you think compliance with EU state aid rules is a burden, well, that burden will exist in NI but not the rUK. If that's a border it's a border but it's certainly not the central case of a border.
I don't care. The biggoted fucksticks in the DUP do though.
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
I don’t know why people keep saying it ends FoM. This isn’t the future relationship. FoM will continue throughout an extendable transition.
Oh dear, if the government can't at the very least say on X date it ends no ifs no buts, then I can't support the deal.
Barnier said it can be extended once.
That suggests a final date - at the latest - of 2022.
"Other cabinet sources say those who spoke against the deal were not making arguments for alternative deals or even criticising the content - but expressing reservations about whether it can get through the House"
Corbyn called this a botched deal earlier. Now people may not like it but I think it's bizarre to call it a botched deal. It does seem to be a much better deal than I thought she would get, especially ending FOM. I wonder if labour will really vote against what will probably be a popular deal with the public.
Criticising the deal could appeal to both leavers and remainers.
The obverse seems equally true; a perfect political position.
2) They know how much carnage there will be in the event of No Deal. A bad deal is better than No Deal.
2)
... and I suspect quite a few who ‘spoke out against it’ were complaining about specific terms which aren’t fundamental to the agreement.
Leavers have two options - either accept this, grudgingly... or risk a tossup between no deal and a referendum which could cancel Brexit, or result in no deal. No deal might be acceptable to the headbangers, but the retribution from the 80 or 90% of the country who don’t think that way would be severe.
People’s Voters face the same choice - and the likelihood of their desired outcome (a second referendum reversing the Brexit choice) is very, very low - and similar retribution. (Although their case for a ranked choice referendum vote over the three options is slightly more justifiable.)
No doubt we’ll find out over the next couple of days just how poor the deal offered is (or isn’t).
It's in relation to Northern Ireland. Which seems far enough to me.
Ah, so the border is in the sea then.
Goods and services will flow freely across the Irish sea.
If you are determined to find a border you will find one. For example if you think compliance with EU state aid rules is a burden, well, that burden will exist in NI but not the rUK. If that's a border it's a border but it's certainly not the central case of a border.
I don't care. The biggoted fucksticks in the DUP do though.
well that's what I mean. they've said all day it's about whether there is a border in the Irish sea but it's a question only they - not the deal - can answer
Bottom line is, if Brexit's about immigration, then this is a superb deal.
If it's about sovereignty, it's not good, in fact it's bloody awful, but it has the potential to be adapted gradually over time in a less painful manner and is therefore acceptable.
If it's about internal party politics of the Tories, it's an unmitigated fiasco.
If it's to watch Labour and the Liberal Democrats contort on the hook of their own hypocrisy, it's funny.
But the key thing people need to grasp is it is this, or it is leave with no deal. That on its own should be enough for Remainers to support it. And the fact that we are leaving should see Brexiteers by and large accept it.
Yes, the Farages and Blairs and Rees Moggs and Sturgeons will stamp and shout and scream and generally behave like spoiled three year olds. But I think the country will ultimately back it.
Indeed, that is how I feel about it up to a point.
The more the Brexiteers go on about it though the more I think if they cannot be pragmatic about it then we might as well stay in the EU and at least have participation in the institutions. They are just as opposed to the deal as staying in the EU, so in the national interest stay in the EU. Politics is rarely about implementing ideological purity, pragmatism needs to prevail in this situation. If it cannot then economic suicide should not be allowed to avail the population.
Comments
In summary, we have exchanged 12% of the votes in determining trade policy, goods regulation and the other ‘level playing field’ items in exchange for 100% control over immigration. In a globalised world, the latter seems like a far more substantive power to me.
Idiots like Rees-Mogg and Sam Wilson might ensure that we don’t get it.
Even if Remain were to be an option on a 2nd ref, and to win (and personally I think that's only a 50/50 chance), Brexit would fester on like an un-lanced boil, UIP resurgent etc.
Best take this soft-Brexit now imo.
It's a sad contrast to the politicians of the past, can you imagine figures such as Michael Foot, Roy Jenkins, Enoch Powell or Edward Heath compromising their deeply held principles to gain short term party advantage? In that era beliefs were sacrosanct and careers were secondary, now it is the other way round and politics is much the poorer for it.
Officials close to Cabinet say Esther McVey is “on the brink” of resigning. They added that she was “shouted down” by the Cabinet Secretary Mark Sedwill after demanding Cabinet voted on the deal.
November 14, 2018
Doesn’t stop its being awkward
Pity everyone stopped listening circa 14 years ago...
Overall if anything it’s a bit better than I was anticipating. Not hanging out the bunting but it’s liveable with.
Better than no deal, from this point, or a second referendum which would engender bitterness lasting years ( we’ve got to implement the firstbone first), and would merely fire the starting gun for rebound three, if Leave lost.
If it's about sovereignty, it's not good, in fact it's bloody awful, but it has the potential to be adapted gradually over time in a less painful manner and is therefore acceptable.
If it's about internal party politics of the Tories, it's an unmitigated fiasco.
If it's to watch Labour and the Liberal Democrats contort on the hook of their own hypocrisy, it's funny.
But the key thing people need to grasp is it is this, or it is leave with no deal. That on its own should be enough for Remainers to support it. And the fact that we are leaving should see Brexiteers by and large accept it.
Yes, the Farages and Blairs and Rees Moggs and Sturgeons will stamp and shout and scream and generally behave like spoiled three year olds. But I think the country will ultimately back it.
That's where this is going.
"In summary, we have exchanged 12% of the votes in determining trade policy, goods regulation and the other ‘level playing field’ items in exchange for 100% control over immigration."
Have we? Forgive my ignorance but I've not seen anything on any TV channel about FOM.
It’s going to pass.
Interesting that most on here, from both sides, seem prepared to accept this and move on.
The irony would be delicious and the effect on both the Tories and Labour cataclysmic...
McVey doesn’t understand how collective responsibility works.
There is a debate and the primus inter pares summarises the consensus
No one votes on the record - makes it far harder to support the consensus
There's no overwhelming reason the transition period should continue indefinitely. The EU is against an extension and we'd have to pay into the budget. We probably rather have the backstop for any period between 1 January 2021 and the partnership coming into being. If not then then in a couple of years for plenty of prep.
And a similar proportion of Remainers.
Can Parliament risk pissing off that many voters ?
If they're still there at the time the big dailies go to press, they're stuffed if they then resign.
In the same way that England's batsmen can risk playing shots on a turning wicket against a spinner.
But tbf that only proves your point!
And I love the pun on what Theresa May have...
@welshowl - your comment is quite right. Polls could be decisive.
If you are determined to find a border you will find one. For example if you think compliance with EU state aid rules is a burden, well, that burden will exist in NI but not the rUK. If that's a border it's a border but it's certainly not the central case of a border.
That suggests a final date - at the latest - of 2022.
Nevertheless, a lot of them still seem to be coming at this from a position of 'Will this stop/help party x remain/gain in power?' which is despicable. Hating Corbyn or hating the Tories is not something one can just put aside, but cannot be an excuse to vote for or against a deal which otherwise they could not support or reject, as the case may be.
We have got the right but not the obligation to extend it and both sides have to agree. I do not see that having such a right makes the UK's position worse. It can only strengthen it.
(Yes, seriously, I know. I was being mischievous. It would be the funniest thing in politics since John Prescott was caught with his trousers down.)
Also, isn't this pretty much BINO? Its a fairly soft Brexit.
I'm a right old remainer, but lets just get this over with. The public won't judge politicians kindly for farting about now.
Having said that, McVey is thick and useless, so her resignation would be most welcome.
The more the Brexiteers go on about it though the more I think if they cannot be pragmatic about it then we might as well stay in the EU and at least have participation in the institutions. They are just as opposed to the deal as staying in the EU, so in the national interest stay in the EU. Politics is rarely about implementing ideological purity, pragmatism needs to prevail in this situation. If it cannot then economic suicide should not be allowed to avail the population.