This kind of hyperbole just adds to the thing. Socialism or Fascism are the only choices folks, according to a leading commentator. Jeez.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
Vox did a bit on operation car wash and they were talking about 500,000 jobs were lost because of this corruption scandal and that before you get into the billions lost from the public purse and the fact a massive oil processing facility, and another 14/15 other big infrastructure projects like a nuclear power stations etc will now likely never be completed.
Half a million jobs...is it any wonder the people have gone all trumpy.
I makes newspaper stories about MPs claiming for Mars Bars on their expenses look a bit silly.
Frankly it makes most of our politics look silly. We are very fortunate.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
In what sense is electing a right-wing thug 'the people taking back power from the elites'?
You'll be telling us next that Trump is 'one of the people' not a member of the US super-rich elite.
Well, times were hard for Trump when he was a boy. All he had was a small loan of a million dollars from his father. He had to really struggle and strive for success.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
As a rule (one of mine at any rate), judging the positivity or negativity of something primarily on whether it upsets those you dislike, is a recipe for disaster, and a path leading to a whole lot of partisan justification of awful things.
Edit: Perhaps things are so bad in Brazil that it is necessary, I don't know. But upsetting liberals, I presume there, is surely lower down on the scale of determining if it might be a net positive or not than many other things.
Interestingly, corruption and high crime rates led to the election of a Leftist in Mexico. It was somewhat a mirror election in many ways. Not sure if it upset Liberals or not. Or if that was the people taking power from the elites or not.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
You'll miss us liberals when we are gone, with our stupid rationality, and wacky ideas about protecting individual freedom, free press and the rule of law and all that other guff.
This kind of hyperbole just adds to the thing. Socialism or Fascism are the only choices folks, according to a leading commentator. Jeez.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
Not to mention the point that Brazil is consumed with barbarism at the moment. That's why so many people are being driven to vote for a hardline demagogue who promises to do something about it.
This kind of hyperbole just adds to the thing. Socialism or Fascism are the only choices folks, according to a leading commentator. Jeez.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
You'll miss us liberals when we are gone, with our stupid rationality, and wacky ideas about protecting individual freedom, free press and the rule of law and all that other guff.
Good luck...
Individual freedom? You mean something like freedom of speech, something liberals have continually eroded over the last decade.
This kind of hyperbole just adds to the thing. Socialism or Fascism are the only choices folks, according to a leading commentator. Jeez.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
You mean Owen has scored zero Marx?
I think certainly he's looking at it from the wrong Engels.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
In what sense is electing a right-wing thug 'the people taking back power from the elites'?
You'll be telling us next that Trump is 'one of the people' not a member of the US super-rich elite.
Well, times were hard for Trump when he was a boy. All he had was a small loan of a million dollars from his father. He had to really struggle and strive for success.
Good point - I forgot his riches-to-riches backstory.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
To people like Owen socialism has killed exactly 0 people because real socialism has never been tried.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
This kind of hyperbole just adds to the thing. Socialism or Fascism are the only choices folks, according to a leading commentator. Jeez.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
I suspect, like many on the Left, he sincerely believes that Soviet Russia was not proper socialism and next time it will be done properly etc etc.
It does seem strange that such a serious allegation has not been (apparently) investigated.
Normally a rape victim is entitled to anonymity, but the alleged rapist is not.
In the Labour party, it seems the reverse holds true.
Why is the Labour party holding one of its internal investigations? Surely the proper response is for the Labour party to refer the entire matter to the police.
The Labour Party cannot refer anything to the Police. Only the victim can. For obvious reasons.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
You'll miss us liberals when we are gone, with our stupid rationality, and wacky ideas about protecting individual freedom, free press and the rule of law and all that other guff.
Good luck...
Individual freedom? You mean something like freedom of speech, something liberals have continually eroded over the last decade.
That past decade when the Tories have been in power you mean?
Without liberals over the past century, we'd still have companies and individuals openly discriminating against: women, black and asian people, disabled people, homosexuals, etc. None of the improvments in society's attitudes to minorities would have happened without liberals and liberal ideas.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
To people like Owen socialism has killed exactly 0 people because real socialism has never been tried.
Brexit has gone very quiet. Is everyone taking a breather? Are we back from the brink? Or, given it’s nearly Halloween, is it about to jump out of a cupboard wielding a knife.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
I think a lot of people consider liberal to be a synonym for 'good' and so assume themselves to be liberal in all the ways that it matter, whether that has much accuracy to a political ideology or not, in much the same way many of us will instinctively support or oppose something based on who we think it proposing it.
But the hardcore crowd at unis and the like as you describe? They seem much more likely, as you say, to identify much more with positions other than liberalism, however it is defined.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
You'll miss us liberals when we are gone, with our stupid rationality, and wacky ideas about protecting individual freedom, free press and the rule of law and all that other guff.
Good luck...
Individual freedom? You mean something like freedom of speech, something liberals have continually eroded over the last decade.
That past decade when the Tories have been in power you mean?
This kind of hyperbole just adds to the thing. Socialism or Fascism are the only choices folks, according to a leading commentator. Jeez.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
I suspect, like many on the Left, he sincerely believes that Soviet Russia was not proper socialism and next time it will be done properly etc etc.
Deluded.
Maybe.
Do you consider Attlee's post-war government socialist?
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
You'll miss us liberals when we are gone, with our stupid rationality, and wacky ideas about protecting individual freedom, free press and the rule of law and all that other guff.
Good luck...
Individual freedom? You mean something like freedom of speech, something liberals have continually eroded over the last decade.
That past decade when the Tories have been in power you mean?
Without liberals over the past century, we'd still have companies and individuals openly discriminating against: women, black and asian people, disabled people, homosexuals, etc. None of the improvments in society's attitudes to minorities would have happened without liberals and liberal ideas.
It started with Labour's hate speech laws and our liberal PM's unwillingness to repeal that nonsense in case the guardian were mean about him.
Brexit has gone very quiet. Is everyone taking a breather? Are we back from the brink? Or, given it’s nearly Halloween, is it about to jump out of a cupboard wielding a knife.
Shhhh! Don't mention the war B-word! It's going much better while we're arguing about how big a Fascist Bolsanaro is.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
You'll miss us liberals when we are gone, with our stupid rationality, and wacky ideas about protecting individual freedom, free press and the rule of law and all that other guff.
Good luck...
Individual freedom? You mean something like freedom of speech, something liberals have continually eroded over the last decade.
That past decade when the Tories have been in power you mean?
Liberal Tories presumably.
Bloody hell, those damn liberals get everywhere these days!
Brexit has gone very quiet. Is everyone taking a breather? Are we back from the brink? Or, given it’s nearly Halloween, is it about to jump out of a cupboard wielding a knife.
Even PB seems to have got bored of it. That takes some doing!
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
Looking at the tensions between centrists liberals/Remainers over the years and Corbynistas, I don’t think these groups see themselves as part of the same movement. Those who sympathised with New Labour appear to actively hate Corbyn/Momentum as much as they dislike the Brexit right. And its the same feeling for Corbynistas in relation to the centrist Remainers.
This kind of hyperbole just adds to the thing. Socialism or Fascism are the only choices folks, according to a leading commentator. Jeez.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
The answer is pretty simple.
1) As people have speculated, he doesn't think true socialism has been tried;
2) He's really more anti-something than pro-something, despite his rhetoric, so all he really means is he will define socialism as needed, to be anti whatever he opposed from day to day. What he supports is 'socialism' for wont of a better label, and what he does not is 'barbarism'.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
Looking at the tensions between centrists liberals/Remainers over the years and Corbynistas, I don’t think these groups see themselves as part of the same movement. Those who sympathised with New Labour appear to actively hate Corbyn/Momentum as much as they dislike the Brexit right. And its the same feeling for Corbynistas in relation to the centrist Remainers.
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
I live in Brazil and can I confirm Bolsonaro is worse than Trump. We have a young democracy, a lot of poverty and violence, and Bolsonaro is the worst thing it could happen. Resistance is the only thing I can think of right now. I can`t actually say anything right because I`m ashamed and sad.
I think liberals have held power everywhere for long enough and fucked everything up.
You live in an expensive house in a nice neighborhood in one of the richest countries on Earth as part of one of the most fortunate generations that have ever existed.
I would not use "fucked up" to describe such a state.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
You'll miss us liberals when we are gone, with our stupid rationality, and wacky ideas about protecting individual freedom, free press and the rule of law and all that other guff.
Good luck...
Individual freedom? You mean something like freedom of speech, something liberals have continually eroded over the last decade.
How?
Yes, on the Hard Left there is a whole lot of stuff about no platforming people, rewriting history etc etc., but they are are not liberal either.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
You'll miss us liberals when we are gone, with our stupid rationality, and wacky ideas about protecting individual freedom, free press and the rule of law and all that other guff.
Good luck...
Individual freedom? You mean something like freedom of speech, something liberals have continually eroded over the last decade.
That past decade when the Tories have been in power you mean?
Without liberals over the past century, we'd still have companies and individuals openly discriminating against: women, black and asian people, disabled people, homosexuals, etc. None of the improvments in society's attitudes to minorities would have happened without liberals and liberal ideas.
It started with Labour's hate speech laws and our liberal PM's unwillingness to repeal that nonsense in case the guardian were mean about him.
The Grauniad were always mean about him (deservedly so imo).
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
You'll miss us liberals when we are gone, with our stupid rationality, and wacky ideas about protecting individual freedom, free press and the rule of law and all that other guff.
Good luck...
Individual freedom? You mean something like freedom of speech, something liberals have continually eroded over the last decade.
That past decade when the Tories have been in power you mean?
Liberal Tories presumably.
Bloody hell, those damn liberals get everywhere these days!
Hardly a representative sample, but you would not have found it hard to find posts in the comments of the Telegraph while he was PM which said Cameron was a LD in all but name, which must have come as quite a shock to him.
But of course, liberal conservatism (not to be confused with conservative liberalism) is still a thing.
As a rule, anything that has the liberals upset is probably a net positive. The people need to take back power from the elites, even if it means dealing with undesirable candidates like the Brazilian one.
You'll miss us liberals when we are gone, with our stupid rationality, and wacky ideas about protecting individual freedom, free press and the rule of law and all that other guff.
Good luck...
Individual freedom? You mean something like freedom of speech, something liberals have continually eroded over the last decade.
How?
Yes, on the Hard Left there is a whole lot of stuff about no platforming people, rewriting history etc etc., but they are are not liberal either.
Two cheeks on the same arse. Liberals have been enabling their pet socialists for years.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
Looking at the tensions between centrists liberals/Remainers over the years and Corbynistas, I don’t think these groups see themselves as part of the same movement. Those who sympathised with New Labour appear to actively hate Corbyn/Momentum as much as they dislike the Brexit right. And its the same feeling for Corbynistas in relation to the centrist Remainers.
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
Having seen the fulll extent of the hatred on twitter, I have my doubts that the centrist liberals will. I consider myself to be more to the left than them and ended up voting LD last time around, I will likely vote Green next time or just not vote at all.
I think liberals have held power everywhere for long enough and fucked everything up.
You live in an expensive house in a nice neighborhood in one of the richest countries on Earth as part of one of the most fortunate generations that have ever existed.
I would not use "fucked up" to describe such a state.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
Looking at the tensions between centrists liberals/Remainers over the years and Corbynistas, I don’t think these groups see themselves as part of the same movement. Those who sympathised with New Labour appear to actively hate Corbyn/Momentum as much as they dislike the Brexit right. And its the same feeling for Corbynistas in relation to the centrist Remainers.
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
Having seen the fulll extent of the hatred on twitter, I have my doubts that the centrist liberals will. I consider myself to be more to the left than them and ended up voting LD last time around, I will likely vote Green next time or just not vote at all.
I'm glad to know there is apparently still a difference between current Labour and the Greens, it still gives people a choice.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I live in Brazil and can I confirm Bolsonaro is worse than Trump. We have a young democracy, a lot of poverty and violence, and Bolsonaro is the worst thing it could happen. Resistance is the only thing I can think of right now. I can`t actually say anything right because I`m ashamed and sad.
So, Brazil is a young democracy, but your first reaction to Bolsonaro winning 56% is to think of resistance?
I think liberals have held power everywhere for long enough and fucked everything up.
You live in an expensive house in a nice neighborhood in one of the richest countries on Earth as part of one of the most fortunate generations that have ever existed.
I would not use "fucked up" to describe such a state.
I went and made most of my money in SVP Switzerland.
Well, it doesn’t seem like the left are getting pasted in Germany if the recent elections are anything to go by. Wouldn’t have thought there’d be Bolsonaro sympathisers/ supporters on PB, but from the times I’ve lurked on here fairly recently it’s been getting a weird on here, to say the least.
He seems to be a deeply unpleasant man. I hope for their sakes he is able to deliver to the Brazilian people what they want from him. And those he defeated have serious questions to ask themselves of how it came to that point.
Bolsonaro appears to be worse than Trump for me. I was reading prior to the first election results a few weeks ago his admiration for Brazil’s last military rule.
During its 21 years, Brazil’s military government is thought to have killed 421 people.
At Brazil’s current murder rate, more people are killed every 3 days.
That comparison would only be valid if we could say *only* 421 people were murdered in Brazil in those 21 years. While I don't have the figures to hand, I'm assuming that's not the case.
In 1980, about 14,000 people were murdered in Brazil. It’s now 60,000 per year.
Although the population is now about 200 million compared to 120 million in 1980.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
Looking at the tensions between centrists liberals/Remainers over the years and Corbynistas, I don’t think these groups see themselves as part of the same movement. Those who sympathised with New Labour appear to actively hate Corbyn/Momentum as much as they dislike the Brexit right. And its the same feeling for Corbynistas in relation to the centrist Remainers.
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
Having seen the fulll extent of the hatred on twitter, I have my doubts that the centrist liberals will. I consider myself to be more to the left than them and ended up voting LD last time around, I will likely vote Green next time or just not vote at all.
Now I have found out I'm a Global Green, I'll probably have to vote Green. (Though as a citizen of nowhere I may not get a vote I guess.)
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
"Brazil above everything, God above everyone." - Social Liberal Party (PSL) slogan.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
Looking at the tensions between centrists liberals/Remainers over the years and Corbynistas, I don’t think these groups see themselves as part of the same movement. Those who sympathised with New Labour appear to actively hate Corbyn/Momentum as much as they dislike the Brexit right. And its the same feeling for Corbynistas in relation to the centrist Remainers.
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
Having seen the fulll extent of the hatred on twitter, I have my doubts that the centrist liberals will. I consider myself to be more to the left than them and ended up voting LD last time around, I will likely vote Green next time or just not vote at all.
Yes, but Boris or Davis might be leading the Tories next time, following a no deal Brexit. Would affect your willingness to consider the Jezziah, if that shower still looked like potentially leading the polls?
Let me see if I can resume what happened around here. Bolsonaro also had a lot of support from Evangelical Churches and what we are seeing is lot of coercion of those churches saying he represents the “traditional family” and moral values and all those things we know are unreal. We also had a lot of coercion from business owners.
Brazil must be a case to study for everyone in the world because of the role WhatsApp played here. It’s wasn’t TV, Twitter or Facebook but a lot of fake news in WhatsApp that are impossible to control or to counter. We are living in a time where people discredit everything that comes from the mainstream media as fake news, so nobody actually knows how to counter his campaign strategy.
The situation is bad in Congress and also all around the country. I think we have the worst Congress since 1964 (and you remember what happened then). We have 30 parties in the Lower House and 21 in the Upper, how can anyone govern with this? If you look at the chairs, our traditional parties lost about 80 chairs. I believe we just removed one more brick from our democracy wall: we destroyed our parties.
Bolsonaro bigotry will make victims around the country, his proposal to loosen gun control will be a freaking disaster in a country with 60.000 deaths. What we call illegal militias will kill a lot of poor people.
This kind of hyperbole just adds to the thing. Socialism or Fascism are the only choices folks, according to a leading commentator. Jeez.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
I suspect, like many on the Left, he sincerely believes that Soviet Russia was not proper socialism and next time it will be done properly etc etc.
Deluded.
Maybe.
Do you consider Attlee's post-war government socialist?
Good question. I think probably not, in the sense that Owen Jones wants.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
Looking at the tensions between centrists liberals/Remainers over the years and Corbynistas, I don’t think these groups see themselves as part of the same movement. Those who sympathised with New Labour appear to actively hate Corbyn/Momentum as much as they dislike the Brexit right. And its the same feeling for Corbynistas in relation to the centrist Remainers.
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
Having seen the fulll extent of the hatred on twitter, I have my doubts that the centrist liberals will. I consider myself to be more to the left than them and ended up voting LD last time around, I will likely vote Green next time or just not vote at all.
Now I have found out I'm a Global Green, I'll probably have to vote Green. (Though as a citizen of nowhere I may not get a vote I guess.)
If it is that easy then what of those of us in the measured middle, who are we supposed to vote for?!
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
He gets a lot of support from evangelicals, though. Surprisingly for what one thinks of as a Catholic country, they are now a major force in Brazil.
I think liberals have held power everywhere for long enough and fucked everything up.
You live in an expensive house in a nice neighborhood in one of the richest countries on Earth as part of one of the most fortunate generations that have ever existed.
I would not use "fucked up" to describe such a state.
I went and made most of my money in SVP Switzerland.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
L We have 30 parties in the Lower House and 21 in the Upper, how can anyone govern with this?
That is pretty remarkable. If I remember from the results no one party go more than 10-15%? Even when coalitions must be the norm, it just seems so problematic.
This kind of hyperbole just adds to the thing. Socialism or Fascism are the only choices folks, according to a leading commentator. Jeez.
It is worth pondering why to Owen Jones Socialism, which may possibly have caused more death and destruction than every other ideology in history put together, is not seen as barbarism.
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
I suspect, like many on the Left, he sincerely believes that Soviet Russia was not proper socialism and next time it will be done properly etc etc.
Deluded.
Maybe.
Do you consider Attlee's post-war government socialist?
Good question. I think probably not, in the sense that Owen Jones wants.
I'm not so sure - I think the Corbynistas still hold the Attlee government up as a role-model. It's certainly not denegrated like the Blair years are. As I don't know Owen Jones, I can't say what he thinks of Attlee.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the snip heir pet socialists do the dirty work.
Snip
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
Having seen the fulll extent of the hatred on twitter, I have my doubts that the centrist liberals will. I consider myself to be more to the left than them and ended up voting LD last time around, I will likely vote Green next time or just not vote at all.
Yes, but Boris or Davis might be leading the Tories next time, following a no deal Brexit. Would affect your willingness to consider the Jezziah, if that shower still looked like potentially leading the polls?
If it’s Corbyn vs Boris I’m giving up on politics entirely.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
Looking at the tensions between centrists liberals/Remainers over the years and Corbynistas, I don’t think these groups see themselves as part of the same movement. Those who sympathised with New Labour appear to actively hate Corbyn/Momentum as much as they dislike the Brexit right. And its the same feeling for Corbynistas in relation to the centrist Remainers.
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
Having seen the fulll extent of the hatred on twitter, I have my doubts that the centrist liberals will. I consider myself to be more to the left than them and ended up voting LD last time around, I will likely vote Green next time or just not vote at all.
Now I have found out I'm a Global Green, I'll probably have to vote Green. (Though as a citizen of nowhere I may not get a vote I guess.)
IIRC I remember reading you’d gone off Corbyn in the last few months. Corbyn also seems to have disappeared from public view (aside from PMQs and statements in the commons). I think I’ve seen more of Sadiq Khan than I have of Corbyn lately in the media. Even his twitter feed is a bit quiet.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
Looking at the tensions between centrists liberals/Remainers over the years and Corbynistas, I don’t think these groups see themselves as part of the same movement. Those who sympathised with New Labour appear to actively hate Corbyn/Momentum as much as they dislike the Brexit right. And its the same feeling for Corbynistas in relation to the centrist Remainers.
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
Having seen the fulll extent of the hatred on twitter, I have my doubts that the centrist liberals will. I consider myself to be more to the left than them and ended up voting LD last time around, I will likely vote Green next time or just not vote at all.
Now I have found out I'm a Global Green, I'll probably have to vote Green. (Though as a citizen of nowhere I may not get a vote I guess.)
If it is that easy then what of those of us in the measured middle, who are we supposed to vote for?!
You could start a new Measured Middle party. MM nice!
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
Though I expect a majority of Catholics backed him too given Brazil is the largest Catholic majority nation in the world, as I said Bolsonaro's win is great news for the Vatican in its biggest nation after years of global setbacks and puts a devout Catholic in the Presidential Palace in Brasilia
IIRC I remember reading you’d gone off Corbyn in the last few months. Corbyn also seems to have disappeared from public view (aside from PMQs and statements in the commons). I think I’ve seen more of Sadiq Khan than I have of Corbyn lately in the media. Even his twitter feed is a bit quiet.
Well, it's all been about Brexit, and given he wants to appear to be all things to all people on that, better to let Starmer and others talk more about it I guess.
Let me see if I can resume what happened around here. Bolsonaro also had a lot of support from Evangelical Churches and what we are seeing is lot of coercion of those churches saying he represents the “traditional family” and moral values and all those things we know are unreal. We also had a lot of coercion from business owners.
Brazil must be a case to study for everyone in the world because of the role WhatsApp played here. It’s wasn’t TV, Twitter or Facebook but a lot of fake news in WhatsApp that are impossible to control or to counter. We are living in a time where people discredit everything that comes from the mainstream media as fake news, so nobody actually knows how to counter his campaign strategy.
The situation is bad in Congress and also all around the country. I think we have the worst Congress since 1964 (and you remember what happened then). We have 30 parties in the Lower House and 21 in the Upper, how can anyone govern with this? If you look at the chairs, our traditional parties lost about 80 chairs. I believe we just removed one more brick from our democracy wall: we destroyed our parties.
Bolsonaro bigotry will make victims around the country, his proposal to loosen gun control will be a freaking disaster in a country with 60.000 deaths. What we call illegal militias will kill a lot of poor people.
I am sure it won’t just be brazil that suffers fake news being spread by WhatsApp, which of course is another part of the Facebook Organisation.
L We have 30 parties in the Lower House and 21 in the Upper, how can anyone govern with this?
That is pretty remarkable. If I remember from the results no one party go more than 10-15%? Even when coalitions must be the norm, it just seems so problematic.
We have PT with 57, so that`s about 10% and PSL (Bolsonaro) has 51 in the Lower House. We will probably see a lot of changes before March. PSL will probably have 70 because MPs are allowed to change parties.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
Though I expect a majority of Catholics backed him too given Brazil is the largest Catholic majority nation in the world, as I said Bolsonaro's win is great news for the Vatican in its biggest nation after years of global setbacks
His victory has nothing to do with the Catholic hierarchy. Absolutely nothing.
It's all the snip heir pet socialists do the dirty work.
Snip
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
Having seen the fulll extent of the hatred on twitter, I have my doubts that the centrist liberals will. I consider myself to be more to the left than them and ended up voting LD last time around, I will likely vote Green next time or just not vote at all.
Yes, but Boris or Davis might be leading the Tories next time, following a no deal Brexit. Would affect your willingness to consider the Jezziah, if that shower still looked like potentially leading the polls?
If it’s Corbyn vs Boris I’m giving up on politics entirely.
Tbh I think the people on college campuses who de-platform etc don’t consider themselves centrist or even left liberals. I get the impression they see themselves as leftists/socialists.
It's all the same, the liberals are there enabling the hard-line elements of their movement. Their pet socialists do the dirty work.
Looking at the tensions between centrists liberals/Remainers over the years and Corbynistas, I don’t think these groups see themselves as part of the same movement. Those who sympathised with New Labour appear to actively hate Corbyn/Momentum as much as they dislike the Brexit right. And its the same feeling for Corbynistas in relation to the centrist Remainers.
And when the time comes, you're all going to vote for Jez
Having seen the fulll extent of the hatred on twitter, I have my doubts that the centrist liberals will. I consider myself to be more to the left than them and ended up voting LD last time around, I will likely vote Green next time or just not vote at all.
Now I have found out I'm a Global Green, I'll probably have to vote Green. (Though as a citizen of nowhere I may not get a vote I guess.)
IIRC I remember reading you’d gone off Corbyn in the last few months. Corbyn also seems to have disappeared from public view (aside from PMQs and statements in the commons). I think I’ve seen more of Sadiq Khan than I have of Corbyn lately in the media. Even his twitter feed is a bit quiet.
I'll decide nearer the time of the next GE between Labour, LDs and Green party. Corbyn may well be gone by then anyway.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
Though I expect a majority of Catholics backed him too given Brazil is the largest Catholic majority nation in the world, as I said Bolsonaro's win is great news for the Vatican in its biggest nation after years of global setbacks
His victory has nothing to do with the Catholic hierarchy. Absolutely nothing.
Yes, CNBB, the biggest Catholic Confederation did not support him. Polls showed the difference between Haddad and Bolsonaro was very small in this segment.
Let me see if I can resume what happened around here. Bolsonaro also had a lot of support from Evangelical Churches and what we are seeing is lot of coercion of those churches saying he represents the “traditional family” and moral values and all those things we know are unreal. We also had a lot of coercion from business owners.
Brazil must be a case to study for everyone in the world because of the role WhatsApp played here. It’s wasn’t TV, Twitter or Facebook but a lot of fake news in WhatsApp that are impossible to control or to counter. We are living in a time where people discredit everything that comes from the mainstream media as fake news, so nobody actually knows how to counter his campaign strategy.
The situation is bad in Congress and also all around the country. I think we have the worst Congress since 1964 (and you remember what happened then). We have 30 parties in the Lower House and 21 in the Upper, how can anyone govern with this? If you look at the chairs, our traditional parties lost about 80 chairs. I believe we just removed one more brick from our democracy wall: we destroyed our parties.
Bolsonaro bigotry will make victims around the country, his proposal to loosen gun control will be a freaking disaster in a country with 60.000 deaths. What we call illegal militias will kill a lot of poor people.
Is proportional representation used to elect the Congress?
Let me see if I can resume what happened around here. Bolsonaro also had a lot of support from Evangelical Churches and what we are seeing is lot of coercion of those churches saying he represents the “traditional family” and moral values and all those things we know are unreal. We also had a lot of coercion from business owners.
Brazil must be a case to study for everyone in the world because of the role WhatsApp played here. It’s wasn’t TV, Twitter or Facebook but a lot of fake news in WhatsApp that are impossible to control or to counter. We are living in a time where people discredit everything that comes from the mainstream media as fake news, so nobody actually knows how to counter his campaign strategy.
The situation is bad in Congress and also all around the country. I think we have the worst Congress since 1964 (and you remember what happened then). We have 30 parties in the Lower House and 21 in the Upper, how can anyone govern with this? If you look at the chairs, our traditional parties lost about 80 chairs. I believe we just removed one more brick from our democracy wall: we destroyed our parties.
Bolsonaro bigotry will make victims around the country, his proposal to loosen gun control will be a freaking disaster in a country with 60.000 deaths. What we call illegal militias will kill a lot of poor people.
Is proportional representation used to elect the Congress?
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
He gets a lot of support from evangelicals, though. Surprisingly for what one thinks of as a Catholic country, they are now a major force in Brazil.
Brazil is still Catholic majority though as is Bolsonaro even if Protestant evangelicals helped fuel his rise
Well, it doesn’t seem like the left are getting pasted in Germany if the recent elections are anything to go by. Wouldn’t have thought there’d be Bolsonaro sympathisers/ supporters on PB, but from the times I’ve lurked on here fairly recently it’s been getting a weird on here, to say the least.
I'd be surprised if there are any Bolsonaro sympathisers on PB.
There seem plenty of apologists for Bolsano tonight.
He thinks the police should kill more often. Already they kill 4 people a day in Rio alone.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
He gets a lot of support from evangelicals, though. Surprisingly for what one thinks of as a Catholic country, they are now a major force in Brazil.
Brazil is still Catholic majority though as is Bolsonaro even if Protestant evangelicals helped fuel his rise
Catholics do not organize like Protestant Evangelicals here. We had COERCION in those churches while Catholics did not participate in his campaign. Protestant Evangelicals will surpass Catholics in 10 or 15 years time. And more, Protestant Evangelicals dominate radio and TV (Record is an example), unlike Catholics.
Well, it doesn’t seem like the left are getting pasted in Germany if the recent elections are anything to go by. Wouldn’t have thought there’d be Bolsonaro sympathisers/ supporters on PB, but from the times I’ve lurked on here fairly recently it’s been getting a weird on here, to say the least.
I'd be surprised if there are any Bolsonaro sympathisers on PB.
There seem plenty of apologists for Bolsano tonight.
He thinks the police should kill more often. Already they kill 4 people a day in Rio alone.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
Though I expect a majority of Catholics backed him too given Brazil is the largest Catholic majority nation in the world, as I said Bolsonaro's win is great news for the Vatican in its biggest nation after years of global setbacks
His victory has nothing to do with the Catholic hierarchy. Absolutely nothing.
Bolsonaro is a devout Catholic and by definition gives his ultimate allegiance to the Pope as God's representative on earth, so of course tonight is obviously a huge victory for the Vatican especially as he backs a traditional Catholic social agenda too and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
Though I expect a majority of Catholics backed him too given Brazil is the largest Catholic majority nation in the world, as I said Bolsonaro's win is great news for the Vatican in its biggest nation after years of global setbacks
His victory has nothing to do with the Catholic hierarchy. Absolutely nothing.
Bolsonaro is a devout Catholic and by definition gives his ultimate allegiance to the Pope as God's representative on earth, so of course tonight is obviously a huge victory for the Vatican especially as he backs a traditional Catholic social agenda too and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise
You are wrong, very wrong. He does not back Catholic social agenda.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
Though I expect a majority of Catholics backed him too given Brazil is the largest Catholic majority nation in the world, as I said Bolsonaro's win is great news for the Vatican in its biggest nation after years of global setbacks
His victory has nothing to do with the Catholic hierarchy. Absolutely nothing.
Bolsonaro is a devout Catholic and by definition gives his ultimate allegiance to the Pope as God's representative on earth, so of course tonight is obviously a huge victory for the Vatican especially as he backs a traditional Catholic social agenda too and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise
Although the Pope himself has been saying some rather liberal things recently.
Well, it doesn’t seem like the left are getting pasted in Germany if the recent elections are anything to go by. Wouldn’t have thought there’d be Bolsonaro sympathisers/ supporters on PB, but from the times I’ve lurked on here fairly recently it’s been getting a weird on here, to say the least.
I'd be surprised if there are any Bolsonaro sympathisers on PB.
There seem plenty of apologists for Bolsano tonight.
He thinks the police should kill more often. Already they kill 4 people a day in Rio alone.
The Brazilian state has forfeited its monopoly of violence in large parts of the country. It’s difficult to see how that will change without a rise in casualties in the short term.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
He gets a lot of support from evangelicals, though. Surprisingly for what one thinks of as a Catholic country, they are now a major force in Brazil.
Brazil is still Catholic majority though as is Bolsonaro even if Protestant evangelicals helped fuel his rise
Catholics do not organize like Protestant Evangelicals here. We had COERCION in those churches while Catholics did not participate in his campaign. Protestant Evangelicals will surpass Catholics in 10 or 15 years time. And more, Protestant Evangelicals dominate radio and TV (Record is an example), unlike Catholics.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
Though I expect a majority of Catholics backed him too given Brazil is the largest Catholic majority nation in the world, as I said Bolsonaro's win is great news for the Vatican in its biggest nation after years of global setbacks
His victory has nothing to do with the Catholic hierarchy. Absolutely nothing.
Bolsonaro is a devout Catholic and by definition gives his ultimate allegiance to the Pope as God's representative on earth, so of course tonight is obviously a huge victory for the Vatican especially as he backs a traditional Catholic social agenda too and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise
You are wrong, very wrong. He does not back Catholic social agenda.
I am right, absolutely right. Bolsonaro is anti abortion and pro traditional family and sceptical of more LGBT rights, he backs the exact same Catholic social agenda Ireland has recently rejected which will be great news for traditional conservatives in the Vatican
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
He gets a lot of support from evangelicals, though. Surprisingly for what one thinks of as a Catholic country, they are now a major force in Brazil.
Brazil is still Catholic majority though as is Bolsonaro even if Protestant evangelicals helped fuel his rise
Catholics do not organize like Protestant Evangelicals here. We had COERCION in those churches while Catholics did not participate in his campaign. Protestant Evangelicals will surpass Catholics in 10 or 15 years time. And more, Protestant Evangelicals dominate radio and TV (Record is an example), unlike Catholics.
Well, it doesn’t seem like the left are getting pasted in Germany if the recent elections are anything to go by. Wouldn’t have thought there’d be Bolsonaro sympathisers/ supporters on PB, but from the times I’ve lurked on here fairly recently it’s been getting a weird on here, to say the least.
I'd be surprised if there are any Bolsonaro sympathisers on PB.
There seem plenty of apologists for Bolsano tonight.
He thinks the police should kill more often. Already they kill 4 people a day in Rio alone.
Apart from Max (who's clearly having a troubled evening) I've not noticed any Bolsano apologists on here, Foxy.
He's assuming (I presume), rather ungenerously, that those who are not openly lamenting Bolsonaro winning, or heaven forbid considering the negatives of those who oppose him, must therefore be an apologist for him. And even then 'plenty' is stretching it. I feel relatively confident stating that since I have been clear the man seems to be deeply unpleasant.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
He gets a lot of support from evangelicals, though. Surprisingly for what one thinks of as a Catholic country, they are now a major force in Brazil.
Brazil is still Catholic majority though as is Bolsonaro even if Protestant evangelicals helped fuel his rise
Catholics do not organize like Protestant Evangelicals here. We had COERCION in those churches while Catholics did not participate in his campaign. Protestant Evangelicals will surpass Catholics in 10 or 15 years time. And more, Protestant Evangelicals dominate radio and TV (Record is an example), unlike Catholics.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
Though I expect a majority of Catholics backed him too given Brazil is the largest Catholic majority nation in the world, as I said Bolsonaro's win is great news for the Vatican in its biggest nation after years of global setbacks
His victory has nothing to do with the Catholic hierarchy. Absolutely nothing.
Bolsonaro is a devout Catholic and by definition gives his ultimate allegiance to the Pope as God's representative on earth, so of course tonight is obviously a huge victory for the Vatican especially as he backs a traditional Catholic social agenda too and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise
Although the Pope himself has been saying some rather liberal things recently.
The Pope is more liberal than Benedict his predecessor certainly who was probably more to Bolsonaro's tastes but even Francis retains the line that abortion is wrong as is homosexuality even if he takes the 'love the sinner but not the sin line'.
On climate change Bolsonaro and Francis may clash but more traditional elements in the Vatican are not that bothered about that and have been concerned for some time Francis has moved in too liberal and 'progressive' a direction
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
He gets a lot of support from evangelicals, though. Surprisingly for what one thinks of as a Catholic country, they are now a major force in Brazil.
Brazil is still Catholic majority though as is Bolsonaro even if Protestant evangelicals helped fuel his rise
Catholics do not organize like Protestant Evangelicals here. We had COERCION in those churches while Catholics did not participate in his campaign. Protestant Evangelicals will surpass Catholics in 10 or 15 years time. And more, Protestant Evangelicals dominate radio and TV (Record is an example), unlike Catholics.
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
He gets a lot of support from evangelicals, though. Surprisingly for what one thinks of as a Catholic country, they are now a major force in Brazil.
Brazil is still Catholic majority though as is Bolsonaro even if Protestant evangelicals helped fuel his rise
Catholics do not organize like Protestant Evangelicals here. We had COERCION in those churches while Catholics did not participate in his campaign. Protestant Evangelicals will surpass Catholics in 10 or 15 years time. And more, Protestant Evangelicals dominate radio and TV (Record is an example), unlike Catholics.
I prefer to go on the census figures we have now not hypotheticals for a decade away based on a less than 1% difference when there may well be a different Brazilian President anyway
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
He gets a lot of support from evangelicals, though. Surprisingly for what one thinks of as a Catholic country, they are now a major force in Brazil.
Brazil is still Catholic majority though as is Bolsonaro even if Protestant evangelicals helped fuel his rise
Catholics do not organize like Protestant Evangelicals here. We had COERCION in those churches while Catholics did not participate in his campaign. Protestant Evangelicals will surpass Catholics in 10 or 15 years time. And more, Protestant Evangelicals dominate radio and TV (Record is an example), unlike Catholics.
There is no point arguing with HYUFD. Don’t waste your time!
Which state do you live in?
It is not a point of argument the majority of Brazilians now are Catholic however you may want to speculate what the situation may be in future decades
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
Though I expect a majority of Catholics backed him too given Brazil is the largest Catholic majority nation in the world, as I said Bolsonaro's win is great news for the Vatican in its biggest nation after years of global setbacks
His victory has nothing to do with the Catholic hierarchy. Absolutely nothing.
Bolsonaro is a devout Catholic and by definition gives his ultimate allegiance to the Pope as God's representative on earth, so of course tonight is obviously a huge victory for the Vatican especially as he backs a traditional Catholic social agenda too and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise
Bolsanaro has attended a Baptist Church for 10 years and was baptised in the Jordan River by a Pentacostal preacher in 2016.
Meanwhile, the election in Hesse is a photo finish. Both TV channels calling CDU-Green 1 short of a majority. But ZDF calling CDU-SPD 1 short, ARD a majority of 1. But if that is the case what a shambles. Both parties lost 10-11 %. Meanwhile, the Greens, big winners in terms of vote share, face losing their place in government!
Bolsonaro is speaking now. His speech started with a long prayer from a minister, and he started his own speech by thanking God and quoting from the book of John.
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
Bolsonaro is a strict Catholic not a Protestant and is staunchly anti abortion and pro traditional family and not a great fan of the LGBT community, his win in Brazil tonight is a great result for the Catholic Church after recent scandals and reversals of its agenda, particularly in Ireland
I stand corrected on Bolsonaro’s personal faith, but a larger proportion of Evangelical Protestants supported him than Catholics.
Though I expect a majority of Catholics backed him too given Brazil is the largest Catholic majority nation in the world, as I said Bolsonaro's win is great news for the Vatican in its biggest nation after years of global setbacks
His victory has nothing to do with the Catholic hierarchy. Absolutely nothing.
Bolsonaro is a devout Catholic and by definition gives his ultimate allegiance to the Pope as God's representative on earth, so of course tonight is obviously a huge victory for the Vatican especially as he backs a traditional Catholic social agenda too and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise
Bolsanaro has attended a Baptist Church for 10 years and was baptised in the Jordan River by a Pentacostal preacher in 2016.
Nearly a quarter of Brazilians are now Protestant. I am not sure the vatican would approve.
Bolosonaro is still Catholic, traditionalists in the Vatican have more in common with Protestant evangelicals than secular liberals anyway, eg most white Catholics in the US voted for Trump in 2016.
There are also 1.29 billion Catholics worldwide to 900 million Protestants (many of whom will be Anglicans not evangelicals) so they need not worry about being overtaken by Protestantism anytime soon
Comments
I could have understood had he said social democracy, although I wouldn't necessarily have agreed. But Socialism? Forget it.
Good luck...
Deluded.
That past decade when the Tories have been in power you mean?
Without liberals over the past century, we'd still have companies and individuals openly discriminating against: women, black and asian people, disabled people, homosexuals, etc. None of the improvments in society's attitudes to minorities would have happened without liberals and liberal ideas.
How many times do they need to try?
But the hardcore crowd at unis and the like as you describe? They seem much more likely, as you say, to identify much more with positions other than liberalism, however it is defined.
Do you consider Attlee's post-war government socialist?
warB-word! It's going much better while we're arguing about how big a Fascist Bolsanaro is.Good night.
Even PB seems to have got bored of it. That takes some doing!
1) As people have speculated, he doesn't think true socialism has been tried;
2) He's really more anti-something than pro-something, despite his rhetoric, so all he really means is he will define socialism as needed, to be anti whatever he opposed from day to day. What he supports is 'socialism' for wont of a better label, and what he does not is 'barbarism'.
I would not use "fucked up" to describe such a state.
Of course you can have both socialism & barbarism (see East Germany).
Yes, on the Hard Left there is a whole lot of stuff about no platforming people, rewriting history etc etc., but they are are not liberal either.
Did you put your clock back last night? To 1910?
Evangelical Protestantism may be on the backfoot in the USA, but it has taken a giant leap forward in Brazil.
But of course, liberal conservatism (not to be confused with conservative liberalism) is still a thing.
Reflection is a much better idea.
Brazil must be a case to study for everyone in the world because of the role WhatsApp played here. It’s wasn’t TV, Twitter or Facebook but a lot of fake news in WhatsApp that are impossible to control or to counter. We are living in a time where people discredit everything that comes from the mainstream media as fake news, so nobody actually knows how to counter his campaign strategy.
The situation is bad in Congress and also all around the country. I think we have the worst Congress since 1964 (and you remember what happened then). We have 30 parties in the Lower House and 21 in the Upper, how can anyone govern with this? If you look at the chairs, our traditional parties lost about 80 chairs. I believe we just removed one more brick from our democracy wall: we destroyed our parties.
Bolsonaro bigotry will make victims around the country, his proposal to loosen gun control will be a freaking disaster in a country with 60.000 deaths. What we call illegal militias will kill a lot of poor people.
SVP or otherwise you have done very well from western liberal society.
He thinks the police should kill more often. Already they kill 4 people a day in Rio alone.
https://g1.globo.com/rj/rio-de-janeiro/noticia/2018/08/28/rj-tem-media-de-4-mortes-por-dia-causadas-por-intervencao-policial-em-2018.ghtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil#Religion
Which state do you live in?
On climate change Bolsonaro and Francis may clash but more traditional elements in the Vatican are not that bothered about that and have been concerned for some time Francis has moved in too liberal and 'progressive' a direction
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/01/the-evangelical-takeover-of-brazilian-politics/551423/
Nearly a quarter of Brazilians are now Protestant. I am not sure the vatican would approve.
But if that is the case what a shambles. Both parties lost 10-11 %. Meanwhile, the Greens, big winners in terms of vote share, face losing their place in government!
There are also 1.29 billion Catholics worldwide to 900 million Protestants (many of whom will be Anglicans not evangelicals) so they need not worry about being overtaken by Protestantism anytime soon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_by_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church