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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On the eve of TMay’s meeting with her MPs punters make it a 21

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  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If we run out of food and vital meds next March, the Tories are utterly f***ed for a generation.

    They will be slaughtered at the GE, and nothing they say about this is what the people wanted will make a jot of difference.
    Quite wrong. They won't be slaughtered, they'll be marmalized. It goes on a bit longer than a slaughter.
    I'm not sure about this, maybe nothing matters any more. The government is already a ridiculous divided shitshow and their polling is great.

    The true believers will blame the EU for anything that goes wrong, and the alternative will still be Jeremy Corbyn.
    The polling is pretty baffling. I still cannot see any way the Tories don't get hammered if there is an early GE, which is why it will be so hard for Labour to get one, and after that, IDK, I just don't see how a government which while polling ok currently is not super popular, would be able to not be destroyed by a genuine period of damaging crisis. Even if it was completely blameless for that happening, for the sake of argument, I just find it hard to believe an electorate that has already voted 40% for the opposition, would not turn even more to that opposition, again fairly or reasonably or not, in a post crisis GE.
    From the Labour point of view I think it's moderately worrying, but mainly the problem is that the dominant theme is Brexit and from the media coverage the choice appears to be different varieties of Tory. You want a hard Brexit like Davis? He's a Tory. You want a new vote like Soubry? She's a Tory. You want a Mayite fudge? She's a Tory.

    The problem for the Tories is that at some point Brexit will be kind of resolved one way or another, and people will turn their minds to other matters, on which the party appears to have lavished no thought whatever.
  • TGOHF said:
    Too many take leaks, rumours, or heresay promoted as if it is factual. At present the media are at the same low as the politicians.

    I await Graham Brady confirming the letters, the EU and TM announcing a deal or otherwise and let the rest float away

    If TM falls and a brexiteer takes over I will take the view my party has taken leave of it's senses and move over to supporting a second referendum. I have had enough of the ultras and they do not represent me

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Is anybody else now finding the whole Brexit/Will she leave or will she stay?/Who is there at the top of the Tory Party who could do any better? question not only profoundly boring but profoundly depressing as well? The whole lot of them - and I speak as a life-long Tory - are nothing but a bunch of total nincompetentpoops.

    The Brexiters aren't real Tories.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If we run out of food and vital meds next March, the Tories are utterly f***ed for a generation.

    They will be slaughtered at the GE, and nothing they say about this is what the people wanted will make a jot of difference.
    Quite wrong. They won't be slaughtered, they'll be marmalized. It goes on a bit longer than a slaughter.
    I'm not sure about this, maybe nothing matters any more. The government is already a ridiculous divided shitshow and their polling is great.

    The true believers will blame the EU for anything that goes wrong, and the alternative will still be Jeremy Corbyn.
    The polling is pretty baffling. I still cannot see any way the Tories don't get hammered if there is an early GE, which is why it will be so hard for Labour to get one, and after that, IDK, I just don't see how a government which while polling ok currently is not super popular, would be able to not be destroyed by a genuine period of damaging crisis. Even if it was completely blameless for that happening, for the sake of argument, I just find it hard to believe an electorate that has already voted 40% for the opposition, would not turn even more to that opposition, again fairly or reasonably or not, in a post crisis GE.
    From the Labour point of view I think it's moderately worrying, but mainly the problem is that the dominant theme is Brexit and from the media coverage the choice appears to be different varieties of Tory. You want a hard Brexit like Davis? He's a Tory. You want a new vote like Soubry? She's a Tory. You want a Mayite fudge? She's a Tory.

    The problem for the Tories is that at some point Brexit will be kind of resolved one way or another, and people will turn their minds to other matters, on which the party appears to have lavished no thought whatever.
    Brexit will almost certainly be the key issue of the next general election too since given May's extra year of transition means it will only end at the end of 2021 assuming a Withdrawal Agreement agreed, just 6 months before the last day the election can be held. Given it is unlikely a full FTA will have been agreed by then it may even be extended further.

    The Tories have got policies on building more homes etc even if universal credit has been put on the backburner but Brexit will dominate all
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If we run out of food and vital meds next March, the Tories are utterly f***ed for a generation.

    They will be slaughtered at the GE, and nothing they say about this is what the people wanted will make a jot of difference.
    Quite wrong. They won't be slaughtered, they'll be marmalized. It goes on a bit longer than a slaughter.
    I'm not sure about this, maybe nothing matters any more. The government is already a ridiculous divided shitshow and their polling is great.

    The true believers will blame the EU for anything that goes wrong, and the alternative will still be Jeremy Corbyn.
    The polling is pretty baffling. I still cannot see any way the Tories don't get hammered if there is an early GE, which is why it will be so hard for Labour to get one, and after that, IDK, I just don't see how a government which while polling ok currently is not super popular, would be able to not be destroyed by a genuine period of damaging crisis. Even if it was completely blameless for that happening, for the sake of argument, I just find it hard to believe an electorate that has already voted 40% for the opposition, would not turn even more to that opposition, again fairly or reasonably or not, in a post crisis GE.
    From the Labour point of view I think it's moderately worrying, but mainly the problem is that the dominant theme is Brexit and from the media coverage the choice appears to be different varieties of Tory. You want a hard Brexit like Davis? He's a Tory. You want a new vote like Soubry? She's a Tory. You want a Mayite fudge? She's a Tory.

    The problem for the Tories is that at some point Brexit will be kind of resolved one way or another, and people will turn their minds to other matters, on which the party appears to have lavished no thought whatever.
    I do not see anytime soon such a dividing line between Brexit, it's aftermath, and domestic politics

    It will be a gradual moving of agenda and oscillating between the two for some years to come
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,158
    edited October 2018

    YouGov gives the Tories another 5% lead.

    twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1054848887943520256

    Maybe it isn't just TSE that needs to be sent on Gardening Leave...


  • Is anybody else now finding the whole Brexit/Will she leave or will she stay?/Who is there at the top of the Tory Party who could do any better? question not only profoundly boring but profoundly depressing as well? The whole lot of them - and I speak as a life-long Tory - are nothing but a bunch of total nincompetentpoops.

    The Brexiters aren't real Tories.
    They are not this conservative by a distance
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    HYUFD said:

    YouGov gives the Tories another 5% lead.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1054848887943520256

    May is heading for a 'long running multi year transition period' according to Cabinet Papers
    May is heading for a short running less-than-a-year transition period to retirement.....
  • YouGov gives the Tories another 5% lead.

    twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1054848887943520256

    Maybe it isn't just TSE that needs to be sent on Gardening Leave...


    Why
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If we run out of food and vital meds next March, the Tories are utterly f***ed for a generation.

    They will be slaughtered at the GE, and nothing they say about this is what the people wanted will make a jot of difference.
    Quite wrong. They won't be slaughtered, they'll be marmalized. It goes on a bit longer than a slaughter.
    I'm not sure about this, maybe nothing matters any more. The government is already a ridiculous divided shitshow and their polling is great.

    The true believers will blame the EU for anything that goes wrong, and the alternative will still be Jeremy Corbyn.
    The polling is pretty baffling. I still cannot see any way the Tories don't get hammered if there is an early GE, which is why it will be so hard for Labour to get one, and after that, IDK, I just don't see how a government which while polling ok currently is not super popular, would be able to not be destroyed by a genuine period of damaging crisis. Even if it was completely blameless for that happening, for the sake of argument, I just find it hard to believe an electorate that has already voted 40% for the opposition, would not turn even more to that opposition, again fairly or reasonably or not, in a post crisis GE.
    From the Labour point of view I think it's moderately worrying, but mainly the problem is that the dominant theme is Brexit and from the media coverage the choice appears to be different varieties of Tory. You want a hard Brexit like Davis? He's a Tory. You want a new vote like Soubry? She's a Tory. You want a Mayite fudge? She's a Tory.

    The problem for the Tories is that at some point Brexit will be kind of resolved one way or another, and people will turn their minds to other matters, on which the party appears to have lavished no thought whatever.
    I wonder how much the Conservatives have run out of ideas because they've been in government for over eight years.

    After a certain point changing things means changing things you had already done a few years earlier which looks like an admission that you had done it wrong the first time.
  • HYUFD said:

    YouGov gives the Tories another 5% lead.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1054848887943520256

    May is heading for a 'long running multi year transition period' according to Cabinet Papers
    May is heading for a short running less-than-a-year transition period to retirement.....
    I am content for TM to stand down next May/June and allow an orderly campaign to choose her successor to be in place by September. She could carry on during this period
  • Scott_P said:
    This has always been a question of "arising from the Withdrawal Agreement".

    Whether the UK acts in breach of hypothetical article 4 by remote tagging Irish lorries is quite different from 99% of ECJ cases.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    The fact that May keeps holding out for a Brexit that the EU say is unachievable, defies logic. Unless of course it's all part of a cunning plan!

    Perhaps, some time ago, it was agreed that the EU would eventually "appear to" cave in at the last minute, to enable May's version of Brexit and avoid a calamitous "No deal" for both sides?

    Maybe the sequencing and details of the final acts of this drama were secretly agreed and signed off some time ago?

    Just a thought.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If we run out of food and vital meds next March, the Tories are utterly f***ed for a generation.

    They will be slaughtered at the GE, and nothing they say about this is what the people wanted will make a jot of difference.
    Quite wrong. They won't be slaughtered, they'll be marmalized. It goes on a bit longer than a slaughter.
    I'm not sure about this, maybe nothing matters any more. The government is already a ridiculous divided shitshow and their polling is great.

    The true believers will blame the EU for anything that goes wrong, and the alternative will still be Jeremy Corbyn.
    The polling is pretty baffling. I still cannot see any way the Tories don't get hammered if there is an early GE, which is why it will be so hard for Labour to get one, and after that, IDK, I just don't see how a government which while polling ok currently is not super popular, would be able to not be destroyed by a genuine period of damaging crisis. Even if it was completely blameless for that happening, for the sake of argument, I just find it hard to believe an electorate that has already voted 40% for the opposition, would not turn even more to that opposition, again fairly or reasonably or not, in a post crisis GE.
    From the Labour point of view I think it's moderately worrying, but mainly the problem is that the dominant theme is Brexit and from the media coverage the choice appears to be different varieties of Tory. You want a hard Brexit like Davis? He's a Tory. You want a new vote like Soubry? She's a Tory. You want a Mayite fudge? She's a Tory.

    The problem for the Tories is that at some point Brexit will be kind of resolved one way or another, and people will turn their minds to other matters, on which the party appears to have lavished no thought whatever.
    Echoes of the 1940-45 coalition government; Tories getting excited about foreign affairs, while Labour make silent progress in domestic matters.

    Then again, record low unemployment, shrinking public debt as a % of GDP and £20bn extra on the NHS are hardly terrible. Local government, defence, the police and student funding need work.
  • Time to go

    Have a relaxed nights rest everyone

    Good night folks
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    MODS - post at 10 54 might want to be looked at - if they are referring to the story I think they are
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    stjohn said:

    The fact that May keeps holding out for a Brexit that the EU say is unachievable, defies logic. Unless of course it's all part of a cunning plan!

    Perhaps, some time ago, it was agreed that the EU would eventually "appear to" cave in at the last minute, to enable May's version of Brexit and avoid a calamitous "No deal" for both sides?

    Maybe the sequencing and details of the final acts of this drama were secretly agreed and signed off some time ago?

    Just a thought.

    stjohn said:

    The fact that May keeps holding out for a Brexit that the EU say is unachievable, defies logic. Unless of course it's all part of a cunning plan!

    Perhaps, some time ago, it was agreed that the EU would eventually "appear to" cave in at the last minute, to enable May's version of Brexit and avoid a calamitous "No deal" for both sides?

    Maybe the sequencing and details of the final acts of this drama were secretly agreed and signed off some time ago?

    Just a thought.

    No, it is simply her rigid stupidity.

  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Foxy said:

    stjohn said:

    The fact that May keeps holding out for a Brexit that the EU say is unachievable, defies logic. Unless of course it's all part of a cunning plan!

    Perhaps, some time ago, it was agreed that the EU would eventually "appear to" cave in at the last minute, to enable May's version of Brexit and avoid a calamitous "No deal" for both sides?

    Maybe the sequencing and details of the final acts of this drama were secretly agreed and signed off some time ago?

    Just a thought.

    stjohn said:

    The fact that May keeps holding out for a Brexit that the EU say is unachievable, defies logic. Unless of course it's all part of a cunning plan!

    Perhaps, some time ago, it was agreed that the EU would eventually "appear to" cave in at the last minute, to enable May's version of Brexit and avoid a calamitous "No deal" for both sides?

    Maybe the sequencing and details of the final acts of this drama were secretly agreed and signed off some time ago?

    Just a thought.

    No, it is simply her rigid stupidity.

    You might want to use some adjectives other than stupid, just for variety.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    FPT

    kle4 said:

    In more uplifting news, I've already got a new job which means six months of paid gardening leave.

    Hurrah, I won't be a doley.

    I'm sure ConHome will take on a very different line once you take over as editor.
    I'm going to be the new deputy editor of the Daily Mail.
    Congrats on the new job.

    I'm looking forward to seeing you troll the French.
    I'm trolling the French this very weekend in one of my threads.

    I troll them twice in fact.
    If we veto the Brexit deal and decide to remain in the EU, we'll finally get our own back for being snubbed by De Gaulle. ;)
    The final line of the piece is 'If you're in doubt about the wisdom of remaining in the EU just remember the French repeatedly vetoed our original membership of the EC, that alone demands our continued membership.'

    But I also compare Brexit to Operation Musketeer.

    Much like fighting a war alongside with France guarantees defeat (cf Suez) Brexit was similarly doomed when Mrs May appointed David Davis, Boris Johnson, and the disgraced national security risk Liam Fox to key Brexit jobs.
    Brexit has all the style and panache of Plan Sandown.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    RoyalBlue said:

    Foxy said:

    stjohn said:

    The fact that May keeps holding out for a Brexit that the EU say is unachievable, defies logic. Unless of course it's all part of a cunning plan!

    Perhaps, some time ago, it was agreed that the EU would eventually "appear to" cave in at the last minute, to enable May's version of Brexit and avoid a calamitous "No deal" for both sides?

    Maybe the sequencing and details of the final acts of this drama were secretly agreed and signed off some time ago?

    Just a thought.

    stjohn said:

    The fact that May keeps holding out for a Brexit that the EU say is unachievable, defies logic. Unless of course it's all part of a cunning plan!

    Perhaps, some time ago, it was agreed that the EU would eventually "appear to" cave in at the last minute, to enable May's version of Brexit and avoid a calamitous "No deal" for both sides?

    Maybe the sequencing and details of the final acts of this drama were secretly agreed and signed off some time ago?

    Just a thought.

    No, it is simply her rigid stupidity.

    You might want to use some adjectives other than stupid, just for variety.
    No, it is simply her obtuseness and tin ear.

    Is that better?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    YouGov gives the Tories another 5% lead.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1054848887943520256

    May is heading for a 'long running multi year transition period' according to Cabinet Papers
    May is heading for a short running less-than-a-year transition period to retirement.....
    The ERG will need to find the votes first
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    stjohn said:

    The fact that May keeps holding out for a Brexit that the EU say is unachievable, defies logic. Unless of course it's all part of a cunning plan!

    Perhaps, some time ago, it was agreed that the EU would eventually "appear to" cave in at the last minute, to enable May's version of Brexit and avoid a calamitous "No deal" for both sides?

    Maybe the sequencing and details of the final acts of this drama were secretly agreed and signed off some time ago?

    Just a thought.

    I've thought about this too. But apparently journalists at Salzburg say she was actually shaking with anger. I don't think she's that good/dedicated an actress.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Foxy said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Foxy said:

    stjohn said:

    The fact that May keeps holding out for a Brexit that the EU say is unachievable, defies logic. Unless of course it's all part of a cunning plan!

    Perhaps, some time ago, it was agreed that the EU would eventually "appear to" cave in at the last minute, to enable May's version of Brexit and avoid a calamitous "No deal" for both sides?

    Maybe the sequencing and details of the final acts of this drama were secretly agreed and signed off some time ago?

    Just a thought.

    stjohn said:

    The fact that May keeps holding out for a Brexit that the EU say is unachievable, defies logic. Unless of course it's all part of a cunning plan!

    Perhaps, some time ago, it was agreed that the EU would eventually "appear to" cave in at the last minute, to enable May's version of Brexit and avoid a calamitous "No deal" for both sides?

    Maybe the sequencing and details of the final acts of this drama were secretly agreed and signed off some time ago?

    Just a thought.

    No, it is simply her rigid stupidity.

    You might want to use some adjectives other than stupid, just for variety.
    No, it is simply her obtuseness and tin ear.

    Is that better?
    Much! Let’s begin the long march back from Brexit-fueled rage. I know I have failed in this many times; let’s do it together :smile:

    Let us take @Big_G_NorthWales as our model.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780



    But I also compare Brexit to Operation Musketeer.

    Much like fighting a war alongside with France guarantees defeat (cf Suez) Brexit was similarly doomed when Mrs May appointed David Davis, Boris Johnson, and the disgraced national security risk Liam Fox to key Brexit jobs.

    If only the process of securing less than BINO had been left exclusively to Remainers from the very start.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    Quite apt as Cromwell's Commonwealth was an authoritarian, unaccountable regime that clamped down on the merest whiff of tradition and fun. And eventually ate itself.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    Quite apt as Cromwell's Commonwealth was an authoritarian, unaccountable regime that clamped down on the merest whiff of tradition and fun. And eventually ate itself.
    Presumably Foxy was expressing solidarity with Ireland
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Finally !
    MT polls, Tester ahead
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    Quite apt as Cromwell's Commonwealth was an authoritarian, unaccountable regime that clamped down on the merest whiff of tradition and fun. And eventually ate itself.
    Presumably Foxy was expressing solidarity with Ireland
    As a Wiganer, Foxy could have marched under an Ancient and Loyal banner .
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I wonder how Ireland would fare if we did the same at Holyhead?

    https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/1054847835252948992
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @TheScreamingEagles

    Hey TSE - did I miss something? Thought you were happily moving to Frankfurt?

    Congrats on the new role!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
    Apologies if you posted it already, but do you have that link to 'Police estimate of 700,000'?

    Thank you.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,297
    edited October 2018

    I wonder how Ireland would fare if we did the same at Holyhead?

    https://twitter.com/SirSocks/status/1054847835252948992

    Un salopard, je croix !

    Is the chap a relation of Bercow?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2018
    A leading businessman has been granted an injunction against The Telegraph to prevent this newspaper revealing alleged sexual harassment and racial abuse of staff.

    The Telegraph spent the past eight months investigating allegations of bullying, intimidation and sexual harassment made against the businessman, but on Tuesday this newspaper was prevented from revealing details of the non-disclosure deals by Sir Terence Etherton, the Master of the Rolls, the second most senior judge in England and Wales.

    The system has been criticised for unfairly curtailing press freedom and dismissed as “ludicrous” after some individuals are granted anonymity in the UK, but then legally named in America or Scotland.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/23/british-metoo-scandal-cannot-revealed/

    3, 2, 1......
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Interest in how the 1922 goes....

    The sterling traded marginally higher versus the dollar ahead of British Prime Minister Theresa May's key address later on Wednesday to Conservative Party lawmakers in parliament.

    The pound was fetching $1.2988, up 0.05 percent. It has lost 2 percent versus the U.S. dollar in over a week amid concerns about Brexit and May's survival....

    The pound will be in focus due to May's addresses to her party's so-called "1922 Committee" of backbenchers. How she goes down with restive lawmakers, some of whom want to topple her, will be watched


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-6310207/FOREX-Yen-gives-early-gains-improved-risk-appetites-May-speech-awaited.html
  • The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.

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    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Oh yeah! (Gove is all you need)
    She Goves you, yeah yeah yeah (Gove is all you need)
    She Goves you, yeah yeah yeah (Gove is all you need)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    A leading businessman has been granted an injunction against The Telegraph to prevent this newspaper revealing alleged sexual harassment and racial abuse of staff.

    The Telegraph spent the past eight months investigating allegations of bullying, intimidation and sexual harassment made against the businessman, but on Tuesday this newspaper was prevented from revealing details of the non-disclosure deals by Sir Terence Etherton, the Master of the Rolls, the second most senior judge in England and Wales.

    The system has been criticised for unfairly curtailing press freedom and dismissed as “ludicrous” after some individuals are granted anonymity in the UK, but then legally named in America or Scotland.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/23/british-metoo-scandal-cannot-revealed/

    3, 2, 1......

    I can only think of three who could possibly be interesting enough for the Telegraph to spare 8 months of a journalists time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If we run out of food and vital meds next March, the Tories are utterly f***ed for a generation.

    They will be slaughtered at the GE, and nothing they say about this is what the people wanted will make a jot of difference.
    Quite wrong. They won't be slaughtered, they'll be marmalized. It goes on a bit longer than a slaughter.
    I'm not sure about this, maybe nothing matters any more. The government is already a ridiculous divided shitshow and their polling is great.

    The true believers will blame the EU for anything that goes wrong, and the alternative will still be Jeremy Corbyn.
    The polling is pretty baffling. I still cannot see any way the Tories don't get hammered if there is an early GE, which is why it will be so hard for Labour to get one, and after that, IDK, I just don't see how a government which while polling ok currently is not super popular, would be able to not be destroyed by a genuine period of damaging crisis. Even if it was completely blameless for that happening, for the sake of argument, I just find it hard to believe an electorate that has already voted 40% for the opposition, would not turn even more to that opposition, again fairly or reasonably or not, in a post crisis GE.
    From the Labour point of view I think it's moderately worrying, but mainly the problem is that the dominant theme is Brexit and from the media coverage the choice appears to be different varieties of Tory. You want a hard Brexit like Davis? He's a Tory. You want a new vote like Soubry? She's a Tory. You want a Mayite fudge? She's a Tory.

    The problem for the Tories is that at some point Brexit will be kind of resolved one way or another, and people will turn their minds to other matters, on which the party appears to have lavished no thought whatever.
    Or, to put in another way, on the biggest question of the day (and arguably of the generation), no-one has a clue what the position of the official opposition party might be, including themselves.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    TGOHF said:
    Too many take leaks, rumours, or heresay promoted as if it is factual. At present the media are at the same low as the politicians.

    I await Graham Brady confirming the letters, the EU and TM announcing a deal or otherwise and let the rest float away

    If TM falls and a brexiteer takes over I will take the view my party has taken leave of it's senses and move over to supporting a second referendum. I have had enough of the ultras and they do not represent me

    Water started to appear between your party and the firm ground of common sense quite some time ago.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited October 2018
    Roger said:

    A leading businessman has been granted an injunction against The Telegraph to prevent this newspaper revealing alleged sexual harassment and racial abuse of staff.

    The Telegraph spent the past eight months investigating allegations of bullying, intimidation and sexual harassment made against the businessman, but on Tuesday this newspaper was prevented from revealing details of the non-disclosure deals by Sir Terence Etherton, the Master of the Rolls, the second most senior judge in England and Wales.

    The system has been criticised for unfairly curtailing press freedom and dismissed as “ludicrous” after some individuals are granted anonymity in the UK, but then legally named in America or Scotland.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/23/british-metoo-scandal-cannot-revealed/

    3, 2, 1......

    I can only think of three who could possibly be interesting enough for the Telegraph to spare 8 months of a journalists time.
    Then of course there's Parliamentary privilege.....

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1054850456701288448

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1054852985845702660
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    There's nothing you can do that can't be done
    Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
    Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
    It's easy

    Nothing you can make that can't be made
    No one you can save that can't be saved
    Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time
    It's easy

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Nothing you can know that isn't known
    Nothing you can see that isn't shown
    Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
    It's easy

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    All you need is Gove (All together, now!)
    All you need is Gove (Everybody!)
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Yee-hai! (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)

    Yesterday (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Oh yeah! (Gove is all you need)
    She Goves you, yeah yeah yeah (Gove is all you need)
    She Goves you, yeah yeah yeah (Gove is all you need)
    Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later. He is now realising it seems what Leavers and the ERG have been telling him all along - that May is attempting to enter into commitments that are permanent and tie the UK’s hands to make it impossible to achieve Brexit. Now he is claiming in Cabinet he was fooled once and won’t be again.

    Well, he has been a fool.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "The real danger to Europe? The lost sense of a common cause
    Natalie Nougayrède

    From Munich to Milan, political narratives are driving citizens into ever more separated mindsets"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/24/true-threat-to-europe-lost-sense-of-common-cause
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    There's nothing you can do that can't be done
    Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
    Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
    It's easy

    Nothing you can make that can't be made
    No one you can save that can't be saved
    Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time
    It's easy

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Nothing you can know that isn't known
    Nothing you can see that isn't shown
    Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
    It's easy

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    All you need is Gove (All together, now!)
    All you need is Gove (Everybody!)
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Yee-hai! (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)

    Yesterday (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Oh yeah! (Gove is all you need)
    She Goves you, yeah yeah yeah (Gove is all you need)
    She Goves you, yeah yeah yeah (Gove is all you need)
    Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later. He is now realising it seems what Leavers and the ERG have been telling him all along - that May is attempting to enter into commitments that are permanent and tie the UK’s hands to make it impossible to achieve Brexit. Now he is claiming in Cabinet he was fooled once and won’t be again.

    Well, he has been a fool.
    The Antipodean branch of the Brexit Bulldogs are in fine fettle this morning/evening
  • Roger said:

    A leading businessman has been granted an injunction against The Telegraph to prevent this newspaper revealing alleged sexual harassment and racial abuse of staff.

    The Telegraph spent the past eight months investigating allegations of bullying, intimidation and sexual harassment made against the businessman, but on Tuesday this newspaper was prevented from revealing details of the non-disclosure deals by Sir Terence Etherton, the Master of the Rolls, the second most senior judge in England and Wales.

    The system has been criticised for unfairly curtailing press freedom and dismissed as “ludicrous” after some individuals are granted anonymity in the UK, but then legally named in America or Scotland.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/23/british-metoo-scandal-cannot-revealed/

    3, 2, 1......

    I can only think of three who could possibly be interesting enough for the Telegraph to spare 8 months of a journalists time.
    Then of course there's Parliamentary privilege.....

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1054850456701288448

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1054852985845702660
    Hasn't the Speaker prevented Parliamentary Privilege being used this way recently? Though one imagines given his own spot of bother he'd probably not want to intervene this time.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    Scott_P said:

    Ah, another total sellout by May. If this is true it will be an abject surrender of our nation’s interests.

    There is simply no other leader on Earth who would be stupid enough to agree to a foreign Court having final say on a bi-lateral treaty.
  • The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    There's nothing you can do that can't be done
    Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
    Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
    It's easy

    Nothing you can make that can't be made
    No one you can save that can't be saved
    Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time
    It's easy

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Nothing you can know that isn't known
    Nothing you can see that isn't shown
    Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
    It's easy

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    All you need is Gove (All together, now!)
    All you need is Gove (Everybody!)
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Yee-hai! (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)

    Yesterday (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Oh yeah! (Gove is all you need)
    She Goves you, yeah yeah yeah (Gove is all you need)
    She Goves you, yeah yeah yeah (Gove is all you need)
    Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later. He is now realising it seems what Leavers and the ERG have been telling him all along - that May is attempting to enter into commitments that are permanent and tie the UK’s hands to make it impossible to achieve Brexit. Now he is claiming in Cabinet he was fooled once and won’t be again.

    Well, he has been a fool.
    Parliament can't bind its successors. Getting over the line seems a reasonable first step under normal circumstances.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    edited October 2018
    Roger said:

    A leading businessman has been granted an injunction against The Telegraph to prevent this newspaper revealing alleged sexual harassment and racial abuse of staff.

    The Telegraph spent the past eight months investigating allegations of bullying, intimidation and sexual harassment made against the businessman, but on Tuesday this newspaper was prevented from revealing details of the non-disclosure deals by Sir Terence Etherton, the Master of the Rolls, the second most senior judge in England and Wales.

    The system has been criticised for unfairly curtailing press freedom and dismissed as “ludicrous” after some individuals are granted anonymity in the UK, but then legally named in America or Scotland.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/23/british-metoo-scandal-cannot-revealed/

    3, 2, 1......

    I can only think of three who could possibly be interesting enough for the Telegraph to spare 8 months of a journalists time.
    Amusingly, one is very pro-Brexit, while another is very anti.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    A leading businessman has been granted an injunction against The Telegraph to prevent this newspaper revealing alleged sexual harassment and racial abuse of staff.

    The Telegraph spent the past eight months investigating allegations of bullying, intimidation and sexual harassment made against the businessman, but on Tuesday this newspaper was prevented from revealing details of the non-disclosure deals by Sir Terence Etherton, the Master of the Rolls, the second most senior judge in England and Wales.

    The system has been criticised for unfairly curtailing press freedom and dismissed as “ludicrous” after some individuals are granted anonymity in the UK, but then legally named in America or Scotland.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/23/british-metoo-scandal-cannot-revealed/

    3, 2, 1......

    I can only think of three who could possibly be interesting enough for the Telegraph to spare 8 months of a journalists time.
    Then of course there's Parliamentary privilege.....

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1054850456701288448

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1054852985845702660
    https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-domaindev-st_emea&hsimp=yhs-st_emea&hspart=domaindev&p=monty+python+tv+blackmail#id=16&vid=466fc14816a6da17a9d241a13ea49f16&action=view
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    It's almost as if we are all better off if we work together. If only there was some kind of international organisation we could join.

    Incidentally losing the EMA is a big blow to the UK and I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.


  • It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    It's almost as if we are all better off if we work together. If only there was some kind of international organisation we could join.

    Incidentally losing the EMA is a big blow to the UK and I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.


    You mean like the WHO?
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    There's nothing you can do that can't be done
    Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
    Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
    It's easy

    Nothing you can make that can't be made
    No one you can save that can't be saved
    Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time
    It's easy

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Nothing you can know that isn't known
    Nothing you can see that isn't shown
    Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
    It's easy

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later. He is now realising it seems what Leavers and the ERG have been telling him all along - that May is attempting to enter into commitments that are permanent and tie the UK’s hands to make it impossible to achieve Brexit. Now he is claiming in Cabinet he was fooled once and won’t be again.

    Well, he has been a fool.
    Parliament can't bind its successors. Getting over the line seems a reasonable first step under normal circumstances.
    Wrong. Parliament can bind its successors by entering into international treaties which have no right of termination. The UK Parliament would have to revoke acceptance of international law almost en-masse to get around this, something which is practically impossible. The commitments May is trying to make are intended to be permanent.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
    It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    It's almost as if we are all better off if we work together. If only there was some kind of international organisation we could join.

    Incidentally losing the EMA is a big blow to the UK and I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.


    Yeah, a shame about the need for political integration.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
    It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
    They probably wanted to just get on with it.

    But you can hardly blame them for picking up the plum before we change our minds.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    A leading businessman has been granted an injunction against The Telegraph to prevent this newspaper revealing alleged sexual harassment and racial abuse of staff.

    The Telegraph spent the past eight months investigating allegations of bullying, intimidation and sexual harassment made against the businessman, but on Tuesday this newspaper was prevented from revealing details of the non-disclosure deals by Sir Terence Etherton, the Master of the Rolls, the second most senior judge in England and Wales.

    The system has been criticised for unfairly curtailing press freedom and dismissed as “ludicrous” after some individuals are granted anonymity in the UK, but then legally named in America or Scotland.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/23/british-metoo-scandal-cannot-revealed/

    3, 2, 1......

    I can only think of three who could possibly be interesting enough for the Telegraph to spare 8 months of a journalists time.
    Then of course there's Parliamentary privilege.....

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1054850456701288448

    https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1054852985845702660
    https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-domaindev-st_emea&hsimp=yhs-st_emea&hspart=domaindev&p=monty+python+tv+blackmail#id=16&vid=466fc14816a6da17a9d241a13ea49f16&action=view
    Still funnier than most of the stuff on tv today......
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
    It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
    They probably wanted to just get on with it.
    They prioritised politics over organisational effectiveness and capacity. Their choice, and they will live with the consequences of it.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
    It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
    The British side are a little bit unbalanced and unpredictable right now, and it's possible that there will be a bad-tempered no-deal situation, in which case it seems sensible to not to leave any institutions hostage to a potentially emotional response if things go pear-shaped.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
    It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
    They probably wanted to just get on with it.
    They prioritised politics over organisational effectiveness and capacity. Their choice, and they will live with the consequences of it.
    Our choice to leave, no one else's, and we will live with the consequences of it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    You need to get a sense of humour.

    Most of your posts on here are deeply personal. I note the paucity of arguments in them, so I can only assume you find the hyperbolic venting cathartic.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.


    Javid.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
    It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
    The British side are a little bit unbalanced and unpredictable right now, and it's possible that there will be a bad-tempered no-deal situation, in which case it seems sensible to not to leave any institutions hostage to a potentially emotional response if things go pear-shaped.
    So an emotional response to a potential emotional response is the rational way ahead?

    The European Medicines Agency (EMA) is to scale back operations further as it copes with higher than expected staff losses, triggered by the watchdog’s forced relocation from London to Amsterdam because of Brexit.

    “Overall, EMA expects a staff loss of about 30 percent, with a high degree of uncertainty regarding mid-term staff retention,” Europe’s equivalent of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration said in a statement on Wednesday.

    EU ministers selected Amsterdam from 19 cities as the new home of the EMA at the end of last year and it must relocate to the Dutch city by the end of March 2019, when Britain exits the EU.


    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-pharmaceuticals-ema/eu-drugs-agency-fears-30-percent-staff-losses-due-to-brexit-move-idUKKBN1KM53C

    In a sense Amsterdam was among the 'least worst' options for relocation....had they gone to Sophia or Zagreb goodness knows what the staff retention would be......It took the EMA three years to relocate within Canary Wharf - but they're moving from London to Amsterdam in a year....to a temporary office...until their purpose built building is ready in two years. Of course they had to move - but why the disruptive rush?
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    There's nothing you can do that can't be done
    Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
    Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
    It's easy

    Nothing you can make that can't be made
    No one you can save that can't be saved
    Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time
    It's easy

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    Nothing you can know that isn't known
    Nothing you can see that isn't shown
    Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be
    It's easy

    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need

    All you need is Gove (All together, now!)
    All you need is Gove (Everybody!)
    All you need is Gove, Gove
    Gove is all you need
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
    Yee-hai! (Gove is all you need)
    Gove is all
    Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later. He is now realising it seems what Leavers and the ERG have been telling him all along - that May is attempting to enter into commitments that are permanent and tie the UK’s hands to make it impossible to achieve Brexit. Now he is claiming in Cabinet he was fooled once and won’t be again.

    Well, he has been a fool.
    Parliament can't bind its successors. Getting over the line seems a reasonable first step under normal circumstances.
    All of which is why the EU wants permanent, signed and sealed treaties to make sure there can be no changes in the future. As the old saying goes, they may be cabbage looking, but they are not that green (or stupid).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    OchEye said:

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
    It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
    They probably wanted to just get on with it.
    They prioritised politics over organisational effectiveness and capacity. Their choice, and they will live with the consequences of it.
    Our choice to leave, no one else's, and we will live with the consequences of it.
    We instructed them the EMA had to be out by March 18 did we?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    OchEye said:

    The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    There's nothing you can do that can't be done
    Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
    Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
    It's easy

    Nothing you can make that can't be made
    No one you can save that can't be saved
    Nothing you cais all you need)
    Gove is all
    Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later.’t be again.

    Well, he has been a fool.
    Parliament can't bind its successors. Getting over the line seems a reasonable first step under normal circumstances.
    All of which is why the EU wants permanent, signed and sealed treaties to make sure there can be no changes in the future. As the old saying goes, they may be cabbage looking, but they are not that green (or stupid).
    well maybe, But lots of treaties get changed or dumped down the line as circumstances change. The key to durable treaties is a balanced agreement if theyre not one side will eventually want to tear it up.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
    It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
    They probably wanted to just get on with it.
    They prioritised politics over organisational effectiveness and capacity. Their choice, and they will live with the consequences of it.
    If the UK leaves the EU we will obviously not be the home of EU institutions. That the EMA was largely a British creation doesn't alter that. So it has to move. I don't see how you can say the EU is prioritising politics. This is all about politics - British politics . The tragic thing is it is beginning to look like we aren't going to leave after all.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.

    Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.

    This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.

    Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    You need to get a sense of humour.

    Most of your posts on here are deeply personal. I note the paucity of arguments in them, so I can only assume you find the hyperbolic venting cathartic.
    Nope. You need to stop posting xenophobic, misanthropic vitriol and calling it “humour”, last line of defence for the deeply unfunny.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
    It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
    They probably wanted to just get on with it.
    They prioritised politics over organisational effectiveness and capacity. Their choice, and they will live with the consequences of it.
    I don't see how you can say the EU is prioritising politics.
    Moving location in 12 months into a temporary HQ (for 19 months) was done for organisational effectiveness reasons?

    Surely less disruptive to wait until the new HQ was ready from an organisational and people planning point of view?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.

    Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.

    This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.

    Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
    Casino Royale, the xenophobic guy off the internet, who calls French people “Gallic twats”, doesn’t get to define patriotism for the masses, thank the lord above.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    Thanks to remainers who constantly interfered with and objected to no deal preparations from an early stage because they couldn’t accept the reality that the EU were not going to be reasonable and that all negotiations can, indeed, end in failure.

    And now, of course, it turns out the remainers favourite appeaser can’t get a deal done.
    Scott_P said:
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.

    Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.

    This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.

    Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
    People can feel patriotic in different ways that are not contradictory. One of the things Leavers need to address sympathetically in a post Brexit Britain is that many people will still feel an affinity to the EU. It’s ok.



  • Speaking as a lifelong conservative voter, the zeal and almost glee with which some MPs are pursuing no deal and the damage it would inflict on the broader population at large is pretty incredible.

    This is made worse - to me at least - by the fact you strongly suspect a number of them haven’t given a monkeys about any domestic issue, like the NHS or education, for some time - or perhaps years in some cases!

    The ideological zeal is pretty sickening and a real turn off for me as a prospective voter. Corbyn is saving their electoral bacon for the time being as shown in the polls but that won’t last forever. I suspect the depth of their current support is incredibly skin deep. Even more so if TM isnt PM and is replaced by Boris or JRM.... I certainly would not vote for them (maybe for no one...)
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Thanks to remainers who constantly interfered with and objected to no deal preparations from an early stage because they couldn’t accept the reality that the EU were not going to be reasonable and that all negotiations can, indeed, end in failure.

    And now, of course, it turns out the remainers favourite appeaser can’t get a deal done.

    Scott_P said:
    Your comment is a keeper. Lets see what actually happens rather than surmise.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.

    Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.

    This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.

    Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
    People can feel patriotic in different ways that are not contradictory. One of the things Leavers need to address sympathetically in a post Brexit Britain is that many people will still feel an affinity to the EU. It’s ok.



    Indeed, and I am comfortable with that. I am merely pointing out that their current strategy might not be very good for winning over people to their side who don’t already agree with them.

    Interestingly, they don’t seem particularly interested in that.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    OchEye said:

    The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    There's nothing you can do that can't be done
    Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
    Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
    It's easy

    Nothing you can make that can't be made
    No one you can save that can't be saved
    Nothing you cais all you need)
    Gove is all
    Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later.’t be again.

    Well, he has been a fool.
    Parliament can't bind its successors. Getting over the line seems a reasonable first step under normal circumstances.
    All of which is why the EU wants permanent, signed and sealed treaties to make sure there can be no changes in the future. As the old saying goes, they may be cabbage looking, but they are not that green (or stupid).
    well maybe, But lots of treaties get changed or dumped down the line as circumstances change. The key to durable treaties is a balanced agreement if theyre not one side will eventually want to tear it up.
    Still takes two to tango, if we tear up any treaty in a fit of pique, who will trust us again. Still comes down to the EU being run by laws, treaties regulations agreed and signed by 28, soon to be 27, countries. The other 27 have through the Commission, treaties on trade in place with 160 odd countries, which to be honest locks the UK, on leaving, out.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    edited October 2018
    Anazina said:

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.

    Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.

    This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.

    Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
    Casino Royale, the xenophobic guy off the internet, who calls French people “Gallic twats”, doesn’t get to define patriotism for the masses, thank the lord above.
    With respect, you don’t know me, and you’ve never met me, so this is water off a duck’s back.

    What we can conclude is that you’re very quick (hair-trigger) to jump to personal conclusions about those who post opinions you don’t agree with, because it’s easier for you to attack a straw man.

    I think that says far more about you than it does me.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.

    Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.

    Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
    I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
    It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
    The British side are a little bit unbalanced and unpredictable right now, and it's possible that there will be a bad-tempered no-deal situation, in which case it seems sensible to not to leave any institutions hostage to a potentially emotional response if things go pear-shaped.
    So an emotional response to a potential emotional response is the rational way ahead?

    The European Medicines Agency (EMA) is to scale back operations further as it copes with higher than expected staff losses, triggered by the watchdog’s forced relocation from London to Amsterdam because of Brexit.

    “Overall, EMA expects a staff loss of about 30 percent, with a high degree of uncertainty regarding mid-term staff retention,” Europe’s equivalent of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration said in a statement on Wednesday.

    EU ministers selected Amsterdam from 19 cities as the new home of the EMA at the end of last year and it must relocate to the Dutch city by the end of March 2019, when Britain exits the EU.


    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-pharmaceuticals-ema/eu-drugs-agency-fears-30-percent-staff-losses-due-to-brexit-move-idUKKBN1KM53C

    In a sense Amsterdam was among the 'least worst' options for relocation....had they gone to Sophia or Zagreb goodness knows what the staff retention would be......It took the EMA three years to relocate within Canary Wharf - but they're moving from London to Amsterdam in a year....to a temporary office...until their purpose built building is ready in two years. Of course they had to move - but why the disruptive rush?
    Quite a bit of the staff loss seems to be due to Dutch employment law ! Extraordinary that it's not been altered or waivered for this particular case !
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    edited October 2018
    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.

    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove
    Gove, Gove, Gove

    There's nothing you can do that can't be done
    Nothing you can sing that can't be sung
    Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
    It's easy

    Nothing you can make that can't be made
    No one you can save that can't be saved
    Nothing you cais all you need)
    Gove is all
    Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later.’t be again.

    Well, he has been a fool.
    Parliament can't bind its successors. Getting over the line seems a reasonable first step under normal circumstances.
    All of which is why the EU wants permanent, signed and sealed treaties to make sure there can be no changes in the future. As the old saying goes, they may be cabbage looking, but they are not that green (or stupid).
    well maybe, But lots of treaties get changed or dumped down the line as circumstances change. The key to durable treaties is a balanced agreement if theyre not one side will eventually want to tear it up.
    Still takes two to tango, if we tear up any treaty in a fit of pique, who will trust us again. Still comes down to the EU being run by laws, treaties regulations agreed and signed by 28, soon to be 27, countries. The other 27 have through the Commission, treaties on trade in place with 160 odd countries, which to be honest locks the UK, on leaving, out.
    this year weve seen Trump tear up Nafta and deals with China. People will still trade with the USA

    In Europe we are seeing the Italian government break commitments on budget deficits, and the French government doing the same but being allowed to because its France.

    Time and people move on.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    You need to get a sense of humour.

    Most of your posts on here are deeply personal. I note the paucity of arguments in them, so I can only assume you find the hyperbolic venting cathartic.
    Nope. You need to stop posting xenophobic, misanthropic vitriol and calling it “humour”, last line of defence for the deeply unfunny.
    I will post whatever I like, however I like, within the rules of this site. You don’t get to police me, despite how some of your generation seem to see it as your right to do so.

    Occasionally that will include fruity and expressive language. Deal with it.

    You’re the same, and no better than me or anyone else, so climb down off your high horse.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Good morning, everyone.

    It'd be quite entertaining seeing what posters the Conservatives come up with if Javid becomes leader, particularly regarding Corbyn's "Only Labour can unlock the potential of minorities" tosh.
  • Thanks to remainers who constantly interfered with and objected to no deal preparations from an early stage because they couldn’t accept the reality that the EU were not going to be reasonable and that all negotiations can, indeed, end in failure.

    And now, of course, it turns out the remainers favourite appeaser can’t get a deal done.

    Scott_P said:
    The easiest deal in history, they said. We hold all the cards, they said. The German car manufacturers would be desperate for a deal, they said. There are no downsides to Brexit, they said. And it was all wrong. Totally and completely and undeniably wrong. Why? Because Buccaneering Brexiteers had no idea about how the EU works, about how integrated so much of the UK's economy and infrastructure is with the rest of the EU, about how free trade deals are done and about international power networks. Why? Because they never bothered to find out. They could not be bothered. Hard work was for other people. And, as we know, this utter laziness, this total lack of intellectual curiosity, continues to this day - to the extent that none of the Buccaneers in the Cabinet could even be arsed to read their briefing papers on the backstop. What is happening now was and is entirely predictable. We were told it would never happen. We were lied to by fools. Which just goes to show how abysmal the Remain campaign was, of course.

  • Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.

    Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.

    This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.

    Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.

    You do not own patriotism or get to define it.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.

    Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.

    This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.

    Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.

    You do not own patriotism or get to define it.

    I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.

    Because, err, that’s what it means.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    It is interesting to note how little attention the real crisis engulfing Europe is getting on these threads. Italy have - so far - told the EU to get stuffed over their budget.

    There seem to me to be two ways this can go. One is that the budget is somehow rejected by the EU in which case fresh Italian elections will almost certainly increase their majority. Or Italy can push ahead with their budget, in which case - since I cannot see what in practice the EU could actually do about it in anything other than the fairly long term - there is the risk that every other country will start hammering the budget rules again. In which case, expect euro crisis Mark II - Greece on steroids.

    The first scenario might well play out in the way the Greek referendum did, but with this significant difference - nobody outside Greece cared about it. Italy is large enough that if it kicks off in similar fashion the Eurozone is in trouble.

    I think also we should remember this has two implications for us (i) that the EU's energy is going to be directed elsewhere for several months and (II) there is going to be little appetite for any bending of the rules, however damaging that may be in the short term, to accommodate what we can in practice offer. The chances of no deal rise significantly if Italy and the EU keep playing silly buggers with each other.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Good morning, everyone.

    It'd be quite entertaining seeing what posters the Conservatives come up with if Javid becomes leader, particularly regarding Corbyn's "Only Labour can unlock the potential of minorities" tosh.

    Well, Corbyn is a minority. Very few people grew up in seven bedroom mansions and attended boarding schools.

    Yet despite all that, his long track record of supporting racism and terrorism and his chronic incompetence, he still rose to be Leader of the Labour Party. They don't discriminate on grounds of birth, ability or political views.
  • Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.

    Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.

    This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.

    Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
    People can feel patriotic in different ways that are not contradictory. One of the things Leavers need to address sympathetically in a post Brexit Britain is that many people will still feel an affinity to the EU. It’s ok.

    We are a hopelessly divided country that shows no sign of coming together. It's hard to see how things are going to get much better - in the short to medium term, at least. Given Labour's unelectability under Corbyn and the Tories' inexorable drive rightwards into hardline English nationalism there is so much more of this to play out yet.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,507

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.

    Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.

    There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
    It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.

    Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.

    This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.

    Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
    People can feel patriotic in different ways that are not contradictory. One of the things Leavers need to address sympathetically in a post Brexit Britain is that many people will still feel an affinity to the EU. It’s ok.

    We are a hopelessly divided country that shows no sign of coming together. It's hard to see how things are going to get much better - in the short to medium term, at least. Given Labour's unelectability under Corbyn and the Tories' inexorable drive rightwards into hardline English nationalism there is so much more of this to play out yet.

    I don’t see the hardline English nationalism you keep mentioning in the Tory party.

    The vast majority of Tories I meet, including myself, are passionate Unionists.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    Watching Derren Brown's sacrifice. I'd stay in the truck !
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited October 2018

    Good morning, everyone.

    It'd be quite entertaining seeing what posters the Conservatives come up with if Javid becomes leader, particularly regarding Corbyn's "Only Labour can unlock the potential of minorities" tosh.

    I'm not sure someone who the Conservatives made Prime Minister would really count as someone held back by the Conservatives...

    Edit: Not that the tweet wasn't a silly idea even if you don't cut the sentence in half...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting to note how little attention the real crisis engulfing Europe is getting on these threads. Italy have - so far - told the EU to get stuffed over their budget.

    There seem to me to be two ways this can go. One is that the budget is somehow rejected by the EU in which case fresh Italian elections will almost certainly increase their majority. Or Italy can push ahead with their budget, in which case - since I cannot see what in practice the EU could actually do about it in anything other than the fairly long term - there is the risk that every other country will start hammering the budget rules again. In which case, expect euro crisis Mark II - Greece on steroids.

    The first scenario might well play out in the way the Greek referendum did, but with this significant difference - nobody outside Greece cared about it. Italy is large enough that if it kicks off in similar fashion the Eurozone is in trouble.

    I think also we should remember this has two implications for us (i) that the EU's energy is going to be directed elsewhere for several months and (II) there is going to be little appetite for any bending of the rules, however damaging that may be in the short term, to accommodate what we can in practice offer. The chances of no deal rise significantly if Italy and the EU keep playing silly buggers with each other.

    we can cry in to our beer together. Ive been posting the Italy story daily but you'll never get it past Brexit tantrums. Italy has been given 3 weeks to resubmit its budget and looks like it will play hardball. Theres an Ecofin meeting on 3 december which will be a bust up if thats the case.

    Your analysis of whats at stake is spot on.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Thanks to remainers who constantly interfered with and objected to no deal preparations from an early stage because they couldn’t accept the reality that the EU were not going to be reasonable and that all negotiations can, indeed, end in failure.

    And now, of course, it turns out the remainers favourite appeaser can’t get a deal done.

    Do not blame Remainers because Leave has turned out to be the rather obvious disaster that was predicted.

    Leavers were told it was going to be like this and those of us favouring Remain where called traitors or delusional. You have supported this shambles loudly and consistently whereas I would be prepared to press the "Stop" and try to repair the damage that has been done.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Doethur/Mr. Brooke, I've found it interesting.

    It was a footnote on the BBC News (although kudos to said news for doing some investigative journalism about Chinese prison camps).
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.

    Gove, (ad nauseum) 1
    Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later.’t be again.

    Well, he has been a fool.
    Parliament can't bind its successors. Getting over the line seems a reasonable first step under normal circumstances.
    All of which is why the EU wants permanent, signed and sealed treaties to make sure there can be no changes in the future. As the old saying goes, they may be cabbage looking, but they are not that green (or stupid).
    well maybe, But lots of treaties get changed or dumped down the line as circumstances change. The key to durable treaties is a balanced agreement if theyre not one side will eventually want to tear it up.
    Still takes two to tango, if we tear up any treaty in a fit of pique, who will trust us again. Still comes down to the EU being run by laws, treaties regulations agreed and signed by 28, soon to be 27, countries. The other 27 have through the Commission, treaties on trade in place with 160 odd countries, which to be honest locks the UK, on leaving, out.
    this year weve seen Trump tear up Nafta and deals with China. People will still trade with the USA

    In Europe we are seeing the Italian government break commitments on budget deficits, and the French government doing the same but being allowed to because its France.

    Time and people move on.
    China has a hell of a lot of US debt and still even more dollars in their state bank. They also deal in the long term. Trump will leave office at sometime and a new president will be inaugurated. Plus, they can at any time, make the yuan a reserve currency - which could drive the world into bankruptcy. Stick and carrot.

    As to the Italian government, most of what they are upto at the moment is theatre to show their electorate that they are taking on the EU as "promised", strongly suspect that in a few weeks time they will quietly backdown. France, always bellicose in defence of their interests, but, interestingly always remaining within the rules.

    As for NAFTA, what was not so publicly acknowledged, is that it was replaced very quickly by new treaties so very similar to the ones so publicly torn up by 46-1, funny that, a rose by any other name...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Thanks to remainers who constantly interfered with and objected to no deal preparations from an early stage because they couldn’t accept the reality that the EU were not going to be reasonable and that all negotiations can, indeed, end in failure.

    And now, of course, it turns out the remainers favourite appeaser can’t get a deal done.

    Scott_P said:
    The easiest deal in history, they said. We hold all the cards, they said. The German car manufacturers would be desperate for a deal, they said. There are no downsides to Brexit, they said. And it was all wrong. Totally and completely and undeniably wrong. Why? Because Buccaneering Brexiteers had no idea about how the EU works, about how integrated so much of the UK's economy and infrastructure is with the rest of the EU, about how free trade deals are done and about international power networks. Why? Because they never bothered to find out. They could not be bothered. Hard work was for other people. And, as we know, this utter laziness, this total lack of intellectual curiosity, continues to this day - to the extent that none of the Buccaneers in the Cabinet could even be arsed to read their briefing papers on the backstop. What is happening now was and is entirely predictable. We were told it would never happen. We were lied to by fools. Which just goes to show how abysmal the Remain campaign was, of course.

    Very good post
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    I'll nail my colours to the mast to start with. I've made it plain that don't trust British politicians, but I trust EU politicians even less.

    Remember the call to allow Europeans visitors already here to stay, without a reciprocal agreement for our ex-pats? That would be a sign of our goodwill. People advocating that need a dose of reality. It would have been taken by the current EU negotiators only as a sign of weakness.

    They are only interested in looking after number one (or, should I say number 27 - one of the reasons why they cannot really agree to do anything). We have a little sympathy from the Scandinavians and the Germans are business-like, but the others generally see only opportunity - a chance to do us down.(The Godfather - tell him it's not personal, Sonny, it's only business).

    We have a choice in the future to be ruled by incompetent UK politicians who at least believe they are doing their best for the UK, or by incompetent European politicians who have no such belief or wish.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Mr. Doethur/Mr. Brooke, I've found it interesting.

    It was a footnote on the BBC News (although kudos to said news for doing some investigative journalism about Chinese prison camps).

    The EU are threatening to put the Italian government in Chinese prison camps?!!

    That's a significant escalation and a radical departure from normal practice. However, I suppose it might just work...
This discussion has been closed.