Come on, nobody is going to argue 6. Some might say it would have worked if Corbyn had been in charge, but you can always find some people who will believe anything.
Oh dear - yet another day of bitching , backbiting and personal insults on both sides. not PB's finest hour so i shall go out and enjoy another sunny, warm day in southern Spain. Adios a todos
Thanks to remainers who constantly interfered with and objected to no deal preparations from an early stage because they couldn’t accept the reality that the EU were not going to be reasonable and that all negotiations can, indeed, end in failure.
And now, of course, it turns out the remainers favourite appeaser can’t get a deal done.
Do not blame Remainers because Leave has turned out to be the rather obvious disaster that was predicted.
Leavers were told it was going to be like this and those of us favouring Remain where called traitors or delusional. You have supported this shambles loudly and consistently whereas I would be prepared to press the "Stop" and try to repair the damage that has been done.
Here’s the thing: it hasn’t been a disaster. We have the lowest unemployment in over 40 years, a vanishing deficit, austerity is coming to an end, migration numbers are down, a withdrawal deal is in sight, and almost all the legislation is in place, except the trade and agriculture bills. Our society is peaceful, stable, functional and as secure as before.
It has been stressful and divisive. I suppose you could call that “a disaster” but I don’t think it’s of quite the same magnitude that some Remainers are alluding to when they describe it so.
The easiest deal in history, they said. We hold all the cards, they said. The German car manufacturers would be desperate for a deal, they said. There are no downsides to Brexit, they said. And it was all wrong. Totally and completely and undeniably wrong. Why? Because Buccaneering Brexiteers had no idea about how the EU works, about how integrated so much of the UK's economy and infrastructure is with the rest of the EU, about how free trade deals are done and about international power networks. Why? Because they never bothered to find out. They could not be bothered. Hard work was for other people. And, as we know, this utter laziness, this total lack of intellectual curiosity, continues to this day - to the extent that none of the Buccaneers in the Cabinet could even be arsed to read their briefing papers on the backstop. What is happening now was and is entirely predictable. We were told it would never happen. We were lied to by fools. Which just goes to show how abysmal the Remain campaign was, of course.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Casino is right that people seeking to persuade others shouldn't try to wind them up at the same time. His own posts (defining exactly what a patriot should carry, for instance) are sometimes a good example of how not to do it. By contrast, the even-tempered archer101au, who seems to have more militant Brexity views, is more readable, interesting and sometimes persuasive.
But basically none of us can sensibly spend time here trying to convert each other - the idea is more to have a reasonably friendly discussion.
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
You need to get a sense of humour.
Most of your posts on here are deeply personal. I note the paucity of arguments in them, so I can only assume you find the hyperbolic venting cathartic.
Nope. You need to stop posting xenophobic, misanthropic vitriol and calling it “humour”, last line of defence for the deeply unfunny.
I will post whatever I like, however I like, within the rules of this site. You don’t get to police me, despite how some of your generation seem to see it as your right to do so.
Occasionally that will include fruity and expressive language. Deal with it.
You’re the same, and no better than me or anyone else, so climb down off your high horse.
We are probably of the same generation. Go ahead, carry on being xenophobic. As you say, there is nothing I can do to save you from yourself.
The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.
Gove, (ad nauseum) 1
Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later.’t be again.
Well, he has been a fool.
Parliament can't bind its successors. Getting over the line seems a reasonable first step under normal circumstances.
All of which is why the EU wants permanent, signed and sealed treaties to make sure there can be no changes in the future. As the old saying goes, they may be cabbage looking, but they are not that green (or stupid).
well maybe, But lots of treatie side will eventually want to tear it up.
Still takes two to tango, if we tear up any treaty K, on leaving, out.
this year weve seen Trump tear up Nafta and deals with China. People will still trade with the USA
In Europe we are seeing the Italian government break commitments on budget deficits, and the French government doing the same but being allowed to because its France.
Time and people move on.
China has a hell of a lot of US debt and still even more dollars in their state bank. They also deal in the long term. Trump will leave office at sometime and a new president will be inaugurated. Plus, they can at any time, make the yuan a reserve currency - which could drive the world into bankruptcy. Stick and carrot.
As to the Italian government, most of what they are upto at the moment is theatre to show their electorate that they are taking on the EU as "promised", strongly suspect that in a few weeks time they will quietly backdown. France, always bellicose in defence of their interests, but, interestingly always remaining within the rules.
As for NAFTA, what was not so publicly acknowledged, is that it was replaced very quickly by new treaties so very similar to the ones so publicly torn up by 46-1, funny that, a rose by any other name...
With Trump you're simply making my point - people move on and things change. It will be the same for us, notice I havent said whether change will be for better ot worse. The problems 10 years from now will be different from what gets us worked up today.
The idea that anything written down in a Treaty is immutable just doesnt stack up.Imbalanced treaties never stand the test of time.
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.
Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.
This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.
Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
You do not own patriotism or get to define it.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Because, err, that’s what it means.
Again, Casino Royale, the jingoistic bloke on the internet, doesn’t get to define patriotism.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.
Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.
This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.
Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
You do not own patriotism or get to define it.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Because, err, that’s what it means.
Again, Casino Royale, the jingoistic bloke on the internet, doesn’t get to define patriotism.
While you do....?
Your lot have been trying to redefine a nation state on the sly. Got caught. Are now hyper-defensive.
There seem to me to be two ways this can go. One is that the budget is somehow rejected by the EU in which case fresh Italian elections will almost certainly increase their majority. Or Italy can push ahead with their budget, in which case - since I cannot see what in practice the EU could actually do about it in anything other than the fairly long term - there is the risk that every other country will start hammering the budget rules again. In which case, expect euro crisis Mark II - Greece on steroids.
Isn't there a third way here where the EU gets cross but doesn't do much very quickly, but the people the Italian government are hoping will keep lending them money decide this may not be such a great deal for them?
It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.
Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.
Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
They probably wanted to just get on with it.
They prioritised politics over organisational effectiveness and capacity. Their choice, and they will live with the consequences of it.
Our choice to leave, no one else's, and we will live with the consequences of it.
Yes it's our choice, that doesn't make the reactions of others inevitable in every instance, there are still choices available to them. I wont begrudge others their choices, but It's incredibly childish to pretend there are no choices in how to respond, and more so when people think they are being devastating and clever in pretending there are no choices.
This Calais threat story is a case in point. None of the theorized actions, from us not paying to France retaliating in that way, appear to be inevitable, which means if either side chooses to go down that route it may or may not be justified but it is still on them for choosing that response, reasonably or not. Or we could all act like babies and go 'wah, the the other lot started it the meanies' and act like everyone had no choice and therefore no responsibility for their actions. It also insults those others by robbing them of agency and suggesting they must always pick silly options.
As an analogy I am of using has it, if I tread on your foot intentionally that's my fault and deserves a response. If you respond by punching me in the face repeatedly you are more at fault even though you were provoked.
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
You need to get a sense of humour.
Most of your posts on here are deeply personal. I note the paucity of arguments in them, so I can only assume you find the hyperbolic venting cathartic.
Nope. You need to stop posting xenophobic, misanthropic vitriol and calling it “humour”, last line of defence for the deeply unfunny.
I will post whatever I like, however I like, within the rules of this site. You don’t get to police me, despite how some of your generation seem to see it as your right to do so.
Occasionally that will include fruity and expressive language. Deal with it.
You’re the same, and no better than me or anyone else, so climb down off your high horse.
We are probably of the same generation. Go ahead, carry on being xenophobic. As you say, there is nothing I can do to save you from yourself.
You're really being deeply offensive today. Dial it back.
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.
Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.
This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.
Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
People can feel patriotic in different ways that are not contradictory. One of the things Leavers need to address sympathetically in a post Brexit Britain is that many people will still feel an affinity to the EU. It’s ok.
We are a hopelessly divided country that shows no sign of coming together. It's hard to see how things are going to get much better - in the short to medium term, at least. Given Labour's unelectability under Corbyn and the Tories' inexorable drive rightwards into hardline English nationalism there is so much more of this to play out yet.
I don’t see the hardline English nationalism you keep mentioning in the Tory party.
The vast majority of Tories I meet, including myself, are passionate Unionists.
So passionate that the Scots, the Welsh and the non-DUP Northern Irish have been completely shut out from the Brexit negotiation process. Tory Unionism is all about England. That's why most Tories would rather give up the Union than give up Brexit.
The easiest deal in history, they said. We hold all the cards, they said. The German car manufacturers would be desperate for a deal, they said. There are no downsides to Brexit, they said. And it was all wrong. Totally and completely and undeniably wrong. Why? Because Buccaneering Brexiteers had no idea about how the EU works, about how integrated so much of the UK's economy and infrastructure is with the rest of the EU, about how free trade deals are done and about international power networks. Why? Because they never bothered to find out. They could not be bothered. Hard work was for other people. And, as we know, this utter laziness, this total lack of intellectual curiosity, continues to this day - to the extent that none of the Buccaneers in the Cabinet could even be arsed to read their briefing papers on the backstop. What is happening now was and is entirely predictable. We were told it would never happen. We were lied to by fools. Which just goes to show how abysmal the Remain campaign was, of course.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
The easiest deal in history, they said. We hold all the cards, they said. The German car manufacturers would be desperate We were lied to by fools. Which just goes to show how abysmal the Remain campaign was, of course.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
The EU will not offer CETA without the backstop for NI and then only for GB.
However reports last night suggest they are willing to compromise with May and a CU for the whole UK alongside the backstop for NI and nearer to May's plans
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.
Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.
This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.
Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
People can feel patriotic in different ways that are not contradictory. One of the things Leavers need to address sympathetically in a post Brexit Britain is that many people will still feel an affinity to the EU. It’s ok.
We are a hopelessly divided country that shows no sign of coming together. It's hard to see how things are going to get much better - in the short to medium term, at least. Given Labour's unelectability under Corbyn and the Tories' inexorable drive rightwards into hardline English nationalism there is so much more of this to play out yet.
I don’t see the hardline English nationalism you keep mentioning in the Tory party.
The vast majority of Tories I meet, including myself, are passionate Unionists.
Though No Deal Brexit poses the biggest threat to the Union since Bonnie Prince Charlie
Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility in full flight today.
Brexit is becoming a fiasco because it always was a fiasco. The xenophobic lies that the Leavers happily fell in behind have holed it below the waterline.
I''ve never believed it would be easy to Brexit, and indeed, it's one of the reasons we have to leave and leave now.
The EU had as its aim a shining city on a hill, or some such aspirational twaddle, but joining disparate countries together for mutual benefits threw up awkward problems as it evolved. It requires mutual trust to start with and that's always been sadly lacking - human nature always intervenes.
The communist manifesto is aspirational but it assumes human nature is close to perfect if you remove the baddies.(their variety of baddies). At least, organised religion recognises we're a bunch of sinners.
The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.
There's nothing you can do that can't be done Nothing you can sing that can't be sung Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game It's easy
Nothing you can make that can't be made No one you can save that can't be saved Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time It's easy
All you need is Gove All you need is Gove All you need is Gove, Gove Gove is all you need
All you need is Gove All you need is Gove All you need is Gove, Gove Gove is all you need
Nothing you can know that isn't known Nothing you can see that isn't shown Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be It's easy
All you need is Gove All you need is Gove All you need is Gove, Gove Gove is all you need
All you need is Gove (All together, now!) All you need is Gove (Everybody!) All you need is Gove, Gove Gove is all you need Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Yee-hai! (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need)
Yesterday (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Gove is all you need (Gove is all you need) Oh yeah! (Gove is all you need) She Goves you, yeah yeah yeah (Gove is all you need) She Goves you, yeah yeah yeah (Gove is all you need)
This happens every time. If you're using a shitty touchscreen device and not checking it properly when you set it up, it'll occasionally come out of calibration, and it'll think the voter touched slightly above or below where they actually did.
This isn't a huge threat to democracy since it's immediately visible to the voter, who will get upset and call USA Today. The real threat is what happens after the machine registers your vote, which in a lot of cases is horribly insecure and can't be verified properly. (That and what happens to people who never get as far as voting, because they're the victim of various shenanigans by partisan election administrators.)
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
You need to get a sense of humour.
Most of your posts on here are deeply personal. I note the paucity of arguments in them, so I can only assume you find the hyperbolic venting cathartic.
Nope. You need to stop posting xenophobic, misanthropic vitriol and calling it “humour”, last line of defence for the deeply unfunny.
I will post whatever I like, however I like, within the rules of this site. You don’t get to police me, despite how some of your generation seem to see it as your right to do so.
Occasionally that will include fruity and expressive language. Deal with it.
You’re the same, and no better than me or anyone else, so climb down off your high horse.
We are probably of the same generation. Go ahead, carry on being xenophobic. As you say, there is nothing I can do to save you from yourself.
You're really being deeply offensive today. Dial it back.
It is not me who called French people “Gallic twats” and Saturday’s marchers “traitors”.
The same question as always needs answering before Theresa May heads for the exit: who would do the job better (and get it)? An answer that commands widespread support where it matters has yet to be found.
There's nothing you can do that can't be done Nothing you can sing that can't be sung Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game It's easy
Nothing you can make that can't be made No one you can save that can't be saved Nothing you cais all you need) Gove is all
Er - Gove has been wrong on Brexit. He supported May on the grounds that we need to leave now and we can change Brexit later.’t be again.
Well, he has been a fool.
Parliament can't bind its successors. Getting over the line seems a reasonable first step under normal circumstances.
All of which is why the EU wants permanent, signed and sealed treaties to make sure there can be no changes in the future. As the old saying goes, they may be cabbage looking, but they are not that green (or stupid).
well maybe, But lots of treaties get changed or dumped down the line as circumstances change. The key to durable treaties is a balanced agreement if theyre not one side will eventually want to tear it up.
Still takes two to tango, if we tear up any treaty in a fit of pique, who will trust us again. Still comes down to the EU being run by laws, treaties regulations agreed and signed by 28, soon to be 27, countries. The other 27 have through the Commission, treaties on trade in place with 160 odd countries, which to be honest locks the UK, on leaving, out.
That claim is not true. I'd be interested to know who made it - is it another example of some Remain campaigner or other turning a nuanced statement into black and white as a tool for deceiving people? (The claim about a promise of "easiest trade deal in the world" just made by SouthamObsever is another example).
The "in place" list is - according to the EU - more like 50 (as of 2013). And that includes close neighbours such as all the members of the EEA, and also world dominators such as San Marino and Andorra, and an individual listing of small countries in the West Indies.
Locked out? No.
By some strange serendipity, that is pretty much the same ratio by which they exaggerated their numbers of supporters on the demo :-D .
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
People can feel patriotic in different ways that are not contradictory. One of the things Leavers need to address sympathetically in a post Brexit Britain is that many people will still feel an affinity to the EU. It’s ok.
We are a hopelessly divided country that shows no sign of coming together. It's hard to see how things are going to get much better - in the short to medium term, at least. Given Labour's unelectability under Corbyn and the Tories' inexorable drive rightwards into hardline English nationalism there is so much more of this to play out yet.
I don’t see the hardline English nationalism you keep mentioning in the Tory party.
The vast majority of Tories I meet, including myself, are passionate Unionists.
So passionate that the Scots, the Welsh and the non-DUP Northern Irish have been completely shut out from the Brexit negotiation process. Tory Unionism is all about England. That's why most Tories would rather give up the Union than give up Brexit.
A sane Brexit does not have to lead to the end of the Union, an insane No Deal Brexit may well do.
Especially when fanatical Leavers insist 'we hold all the cards' to force the EU to a FTA when r5% of our exports go to the EU and just 16% of EU exports come here
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.
Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.
This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.
Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
You do not own patriotism or get to define it.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Because, err, that’s what it means.
Again, Casino Royale, the jingoistic bloke on the internet, doesn’t get to define patriotism.
While you do....?
Your lot have been trying to redefine a nation state on the sly. Got caught. Are now hyper-defensive.
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It
Pe
We are a hopelessly divided country that shows no sign of coming together. It's hard to see how things are going to get much better - in the short to medium term, at least. Given Labour's unelectability under Corbyn and the Tories' inexorable drive rightwards into hardline English nationalism there is so much more of this to play out yet.
I don’t see the hardline English nationalism you keep mentioning in the Tory party.
The vast majority of Tories I meet, including myself, are passionate Unionists.
So passionate that the Scots, the Welsh and the non-DUP Northern Irish have been completely shut out from the Brexit negotiation process. Tory Unionism is all about England. That's why most Tories would rather give up the Union than give up Brexit.
Maybe you should try talking to some Tories, rather than just reading the new statesman? It isn’t all about England, as May has made abundantly clear.
The Scottish and Welsh Tory MPs have been very influential. Wales also voted to Leave and applied its legislative consent to the Withdrawal Bill. Scotland is a much harder nut to crack as it’s so partisan and divided from the last referendum. NI doesn’t have an assembly.
Where i do agree with you is that some sort of cross-party constitutional assembly would probably have been a better way to do Brexit but, given the partisan divides at the start, I’m not sure that’d have ever been possible.
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.
Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.
This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.
Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
You do not own patriotism or get to define it.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Because, err, that’s what it means.
Again, Casino Royale, the jingoistic bloke on the internet, doesn’t get to define patriotism.
While you do....?
Your lot have been trying to redefine a nation state on the sly. Got caught. Are now hyper-defensive.
Show me where I tried to define it or STFU.
Getting more unpleasant by the minute, aren't you.....really winning friends today. This the fabled Remainer reach-out?
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
It works both ways. The company I work for manufactures (in the UK) and sells product to pharmaceutical companies across the EU. These products are validated into processes and cant simply be changed overnight.
Yes. If the UK runs out of medicines so will the EU - it cuts both ways, yet somehow only the UK problem is highlighted.
Just as well the European Medicine Agency aren't losing up to 30% of their staff in their bolt from London.......
I don't think 'bolting' is a very good description. It was an obvious and widely predicted consequence of leaving the EU.
It was a choice made by the EU to move so quickly - different choices might have minimised staff losses and maintained organisational capacity and competence. Just as the UK must live with the choices it has made, so must the EU.
They probably wanted to just get on with it.
They prioritised politics over organisational effectiveness and capacity. Their choice, and they will live with the consequences of it.
Our choice to leave, no one else's, and we will live with the consequences of it.
We instructed them the EMA had to be out by March 18 did we?
By invoking Article 50, pretty much. I'll concede that the timing of the process probably wasn't specifically intended to make the EMA move difficult. That is simply the consequence of trying to do a big project without a plan.
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.
Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.
This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.
Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
You do not own patriotism or get to define it.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Because, err, that’s what it means.
Again, Casino Royale, the jingoistic bloke on the internet, doesn’t get to define patriotism.
While you do....?
Your lot have been trying to redefine a nation state on the sly. Got caught. Are now hyper-defensive.
Show me where I tried to define it or STFU.
Getting more unpleasant by the minute, aren't you.....really winning friends today. This the fabled Remainer reach-out?
Nope. It’s me getting pissed off with xenophobic posters on this site.
Thanks to remainers who constantly interfered with and objected to no deal preparations from an early stage because they couldn’t accept the reality that the EU were not going to be reasonable and that all negotiations can, indeed, end in failure.
And now, of course, it turns out the remainers favourite appeaser can’t get a deal done.
Do not blame Remainers because Leave has turned out to be the rather obvious disaster that was predicted.
Leavers were told it was going to be like this and those of us favouring Remain where called traitors or delusional. You have supported this shambles loudly and consistently whereas I would be prepared to press the "Stop" and try to repair the damage that has been done.
We have the lowest unemployment in over 40 years, a vanishing deficit, austerity is coming to an end, migration numbers are down, a withdrawal deal is in sight, and almost all the legislation is in place, except the trade and agriculture bills. Our society is peaceful, stable, functional and as secure as before.
I refer you to my previous answer (above)
As for migration, it is down because we are no longer seen as a welcoming, impartial and fair society. We have manage to stop short of running foreigners out of town using pitchforks and burning torches so I suppose that is a victory
It has been stressful and divisive. I suppose you could call that “a disaster” but I don’t think it’s of quite the same magnitude that some Remainers are alluding to when they describe it so.
At least it has settled one thing - Britain's post-Imperial place in the world. We have decided to be a second-line power with reduced influence.
So an emotional response to a potential emotional response is the rational way ahead?
The European Medicines Agency (EMA) is to scale back operations further as it copes with higher than expected staff losses, triggered by the watchdog’s forced relocation from London to Amsterdam because of Brexit.
“Overall, EMA expects a staff loss of about 30 percent, with a high degree of uncertainty regarding mid-term staff retention,” Europe’s equivalent of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration said in a statement on Wednesday.
EU ministers selected Amsterdam from 19 cities as the new home of the EMA at the end of last year and it must relocate to the Dutch city by the end of March 2019, when Britain exits the EU.
In a sense Amsterdam was among the 'least worst' options for relocation....had they gone to Sophia or Zagreb goodness knows what the staff retention would be......It took the EMA three years to relocate within Canary Wharf - but they're moving from London to Amsterdam in a year....to a temporary office...until their purpose built building is ready in two years. Of course they had to move - but why the disruptive rush?
The response isn't emotional, you don't want key functionality located in a country that may suddenly start trying to screw with you in response to some real or imagined aggression.
Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility in full flight today.
Brexit is becoming a fiasco because it always was a fiasco. The xenophobic lies that the Leavers happily fell in behind have holed it below the waterline.
Nothing to do with xenophobic lies -- the problem is incompetent politicians rushing ahead without agreeing a destination, let alone a route to get there: Cameron and May should have nailed down what Brexit is supposed to look like before launching the referendum or triggering Article 50 respectively. Two years on and six months left and there is still no agreement even within the Cabinet and it's not because they hate foreigners.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Too late, the PM, Chancellor, Foreign and Home Secretary are all Remainers and they are about to sign off on a lengthy SM + CU transition period deal for the whole UK plus after a few quibbles and fudges the backstop for NI.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
@archer101au makes the case for how things might be different; unfortunately, however, the way to deal with complexity is not to assume that all is simple. One day we will discover how the Brexiteers had game played the immediate aftermath of a vote to leave, their contingency to handle a Cameron resignation and how they would endure their own choice for party leader and PM would seize control of the negotiating strategy. We may even learn how they game played the risk that a remainder becomes PM and attempts to secure a soft Brexit whilst talking tough.
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.
Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.
This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.
Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
You do not own patriotism or get to define it.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Because, err, that’s what it means.
Again, Casino Royale, the jingoistic bloke on the internet, doesn’t get to define patriotism.
While you do....?
Your lot have been trying to redefine a nation state on the sly. Got caught. Are now hyper-defensive.
Show me where I tried to define it or STFU.
Getting more unpleasant by the minute, aren't you.....really winning friends today. This the fabled Remainer reach-out?
Nope. It’s me getting pissed off with xenophobic posters on this site.
Oh my God - another one with Meek's Disease! Nurse.....
I posted this yesterday, but for those wanting a brief distraction: some Mexican Grand Prix thoughts.
Raikkonen to get the best qualifying time each way at 10 seems tempting (third the odds top 2). The US race showed us the wild divergence in qualifying to race performance (consider Verstappen's race result with Ricciardo's qualifying time, even allowing for the Dutchman being a tenth or two faster).
I've also put a little, on Betfair, on Verstappen at 5.6 for the win, hedged at evens. Mexico as a circuit should suit the Red Bull a lot more, and less tyre wear could be critical for a race highly likely to have a single stop due to the potentially tricky nature of overtaking.
The EU will not offer CETA without the backstop for NI and then only for GB.
However reports last night suggest they are willing to compromise with May and a CU for the whole UK alongside the backstop for NI and nearer to May's plans
The EU didn’t even raise the backstop until half way through the talks, when they realised Appeaser May would back down on any threat. The UK should have walked rather then enter any discussion on internal UK arrangements. Remainers told us to accept the backstop and now it will lead to no deal. Well done!
You clearly don’t understand what is being offered. The EUs offer is exatly the same as it was when Raab ran off to shut it down. They were always prepared to offer a promise for an all UK CU AFTER Brexit, but the promise is non binding and the NI backstop needs to remain. And it will be permanent. So it gets May nowhere. She was forced on Monday to say the exact opposite in the House of Commons.
The EU clearly see the CU as the long term solution which should spark the thought in remainer heads that it might not be a good idea for the UK. May is saying that it is a transition arrangement to Chequers. She is delusional. Now the Cabinet have stood up to her she won’t even get her mad scheme through the Cabinet let alone the Commons. Only the hard core remainers in the Cabinet support her now - the ‘sofr remainers’ such as Hunt and Javid have turned on her.
Remainers are bringing us no deal. Couldn’t make it up.
On topic - I think the market is overestimating the chance of TM going significantly. She is only going to be in trouble with a VONC when she starts losing remainer MPs. Thus far, none of them have publicly said they're against her (correct me if I'm wrong).
Thanks to remainers who constantly interfered with and objected to no deal preparations from an early stage because they couldn’t accept the reality that the EU were not going to be reasonable and that all negotiations can, indeed, end in failure.
And now, of course, it turns out the remainers favourite appeaser can’t get a deal done.
Do not blame Remainers because Leave has turned out to be the rather obvious disaster that was predicted.
Leavers were told it was going to be like this and those of us favouring Remain where called traitors or delusional. You have supported this shambles loudly and consistently whereas I would be prepared to press the "Stop" and try to repair the damage that has been done.
We have the lowest unemployment in over 40 years, a vanishing deficit, austerity is coming to an end, migration numbers are down, a withdrawal deal is in sight, and almost all the legislation is in place, except the trade and agriculture bills. Our society is peaceful, stable, functional and as secure as before.
I refer you to my previous answer (above)
As for migration, it is down because we are no longer seen as a welcoming, impartial and fair society. We have manage to stop short of running foreigners out of town using pitchforks and burning torches so I suppose that is a victory
It has been stressful and divisive. I suppose you could call that “a disaster” but I don’t think it’s of quite the same magnitude that some Remainers are alluding to when they describe it so.
At least it has settled one thing - Britain's post-Imperial place in the world. We have decided to be a second-line power with reduced influence.
The “we haven’t yet left” argument might carry more currency if, at the same time, it wasn’t being argued that Brexit was already a demonstrable disaster.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Too late, the PM, Chancellor, Foreign and Home Secretary are all Remainers and they are about to sign off on a lengthy SM + CU transition period deal for the whole UK plus after a few quibbles and fudges the backstop for NI.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
Not necessary true. Both Hunt and Javid are looking at this through their own desire to be PM. Both know that siding with TM on that sort of deal would see them vulnerable to a more Brexit-style leadership contender.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Too late, the PM, Chancellor, Foreign and Home Secretary are all Remainers and they are about to sign off on a lengthy SM + CU transition period deal for the whole UK plus after a few quibbles and fudges the backstop for NI.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
Well, you have finally admitted what I have said all alomg - Remainers are in charge.
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.
Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.
This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.
Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
You do not own patriotism or get to define it.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Because, err, that’s what it means.
Again, Casino Royale, the jingoistic bloke on the internet, doesn’t get to define patriotism.
While you do....?
Your lot have been trying to redefine a nation state on the sly. Got caught. Are now hyper-defensive.
Show me where I tried to define it or STFU.
Getting more unpleasant by the minute, aren't you.....really winning friends today. This the fabled Remainer reach-out?
Nope. It’s me getting pissed off with xenophobic posters on this site.
Casino is right that people seeking to persuade others shouldn't try to wind them up at the same time. His own posts (defining exactly what a patriot should carry, for instance) are sometimes a good example of how not to do it. By contrast, the even-tempered archer101au, who seems to have more militant Brexity views, is more readable, interesting and sometimes persuasive.
But basically none of us can sensibly spend time here trying to convert each other - the idea is more to have a reasonably friendly discussion.
My point is that the marchers were talking to themselves and not the unconverted. The impression a sea of EU flags makes on the floating voter, yet alone a Brexiteer, is not a good one.
You’d have thought they’d be interested in how to win others over to their side, but perhaps not.
Perhaps the exercise is primarily to just feel good about themselves?
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
Yes, it really seems tobug him that about 1% of the British population had a positive, polite and patriotic day out protesting the rancid stupidity of the Brexiteers.
There were plenty of Union Jacks flying amongst the EU flags, including my own, as well as my flag of Cromwell's Commonwealth. I findhaving an unusual flag is quite handy in massive crowds.
It wasn’t 1% of the population. Posters you might trust more in their objectivity -such as Robert Smithson and Alastair Meeks - have also estimated it to be half that amount, as have others.
Remainers are just as desperate to inflate the numbers so it gives them some sort of extra moral authority.
This “Remainer protestors were as pure and white as snow, whilst the Leavers are poor and not stupid racists, meme” might make you feel great about yourself but is obviously partisan and provocative - not to mention wrong - so don’t be surprised if you get it back.
Patriots should always be marching with their nations flag if they are marching in the national interest. I suggest you might want to do more of that if you want to win people over to your cause who don’t already agree with you. Marching with the flag of EU federalism is not a good look.
You do not own patriotism or get to define it.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Because, err, that’s what it means.
OK if I go to an England Rugby game I take a St George flag.
If I go to the Olympics I take a Union flag
If I go to the Ryder Cup I take the European flag.
Get it? The depth of your logic in these exchanges is wafer thin. You seem to be blinded by your bias?
Finally on the numbers at the march, for which you are doing an absolutely superb job for the Remainers cause, can we see your calculations or is just you so desperately want the number to be so low?
The actual number doesn't matter. It was impressive and you seem not to be able to accept that. It probably won't make an iota of difference, but if it does you are helping that cause.
Surely you must realise by now this is very desperate stuff.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Yes it is - you're projecting your own idea of expression onto all of us. Why should you require patriots to march with one flag rather than another? Freedom of expression is central to most ideas of British identity, and if you want to carry someone else's flag as a symbol of solidarity with them, why not?
There's a similar debate going on in the US over respect for the US flag (the bend the knee thing).
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All wstrength.
The deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Too late, the PM, Chancellor, Foreign and Home Secretary are all Remainers and they are about to sign off on a lengthy SM + CU transition period deal for the whole UK plus after a few quibbles and fudges the backstop for NI.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
Well, you have finally admitted what I have said all alomg - Remainers are in charge.
So Remainers will be responsible for no deal.
Thanks for that!
Ha, ha - the Leavers wanted Cameron to stay on as PM. The Leavers never challenged May to be PM. Instead, the argued with each other. The Leavers sat around the Cabinet table in positions of high authority and failed utterly even to read their Briefings papers. The Leavers just assumed that everything would be OK because that's what they had been telling each other for years. They were lazy, incurious, blinkered and mendacious. They have brought us to this point. As was all entirely predictable. Own it: it's yours. Cheers.
Slightly O/T but why do people keep banging on about Labour having to be more pro-Remain because 70/80/whatever % of its supporters are? The key is not the number of pro-Remain Labour supporters but where they are situated. Labour can afford to lose 100,000 votes in just Corbyn's, Abbott's, Thornberry's and Starmer's seats and they would all still be safe Labour strongholds. But if it loses 100,000 votes in places like Bishops Auckland, Darlington, Walsall etc, it could easily lose another 30-40 seats.
You also have the fact that those 100K in seats like Islington will never vote for the Tories and Lib Dems. They might vote for the Greens but they would never pose a threat to those seats. However, the 100K in seats like Darlington etc are showing they might vote for the Tories. So that 30-40 seat loss could easily be something worse as the vote loss is doubled (i.e. they stop voting for Labour AND they vote Conservative).
Corbyn gets it far more than many of those who criticise him as daft.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Too late, the PM, Chancellor, Foreign and Home Secretary are all Remainers and they are about to sign off on a lengthy SM + CU transition period deal for the whole UK plus after a few quibbles and fudges the backstop for NI.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
Leadsom? Seriously? And what great strategy would she embark on? She does not even talk a good fight....
Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility in full flight today.
Brexit is becoming a fiasco because it always was a fiasco. The xenophobic lies that the Leavers happily fell in behind have holed it below the waterline.
Nothing to do with xenophobic lies -- the problem is incompetent politicians rushing ahead without agreeing a destination, let alone a route to get there: Cameron and May should have nailed down what Brexit is supposed to look like before launching the referendum or triggering Article 50 respectively. Two years on and six months left and there is still no agreement even within the Cabinet and it's not because they hate foreigners.
Yep, politicians are crap shock. Whoever would have thought it?
Mr. kjh, leaving aside your decadent golfophilia, that point is on Mr. Royale's side of the argument.
You take the flag of the side you support. The UK is negotiating (ha) to leave the EU. The 'other side' of the table *is* the EU. That's the message many will receive.
Those pro-EU undoubtedly see it as merely expressing their support for the UK's continued membership (and the EU flag as one that includes beneath its umbrella the UK). But we voted to leave and, apparently, are going to do so.
That said, I think it's perhaps tricky for us here to try and guess the mind of floating voters, particularly those less politically engaged.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Leavers chose to fight among themselves rather than challenge May to be PM. They then decided not to do any work when given major positions of responsibility for delivering Brexit inside the Cabinet. No getting round those things. I'm afraid. Your laziness, your lies, your mess. My side lost. Get over it.
Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility in full flight today.
Brexit is becoming a fiasco because it always was a fiasco. The xenophobic lies that the Leavers happily fell in behind have holed it below the waterline.
Nothing to do with xenophobic lies -- the problem is incompetent politicians rushing ahead without agreeing a destination, let alone a route to get there: Cameron and May should have nailed down what Brexit is supposed to look like before launching the referendum or triggering Article 50 respectively. Two years on and six months left and there is still no agreement even within the Cabinet and it's not because they hate foreigners.
Yep, politicians are crap shock. Whoever would have thought it?
Senior Citizen John L is in any case mistaken. What's flooring the Cabinet is that they are trapped by the parameters set by the referendum campaign. They don't want to leave us all scavenging for dead rats and out of date insulin, but the Brexit mandate obtained was inconsistent with any deal they could cut and get through Parliament.
Here we are again, only this time the panic amongst the Hard Brexiteers is palpable. The fact is that the witless attempts to blame the Remainers for the faults of the negotiation process are simply absurd and the electorate won't wear it. Theresa May is lucky in her choice of enemies: on the one hand she faces a lazy and cowardly leader of the opposition who can not win and on the other the ever more loopy hard right of her own party, most of whom could start a fight in an empty room.
In such company even the shambolic and incompetent policies of the current regime look half way credible, and that is why the PM is seeing her support rise. A good deal of it is that the Hard Right still offers nothing of substance, just venomous invective against all and sundry. When John Major (privately) called the anti-European "Bastards" it was not just a reflection of the grief that they gave his government, it was also that several of them were indeed pretty horrible people. The Stewart Jackson unpleasantness is just the tip of an ugly fatberg of nastiness which at best lacks all dignity and at worst is genuinely demeaning our democracy.
However, I think that the voters are being a lot more discerning and pragmatic than the politicians. For example, I could certainly see Boris Johnson lose his seat at the next general election, even as the Conservatives, quite possibly still under Theresa May, take a majority.
I don't think it is that controversial now to say that Labour under Corbyn has no chance of government. However, if Sir Kier Starmer was Labour leader they would be 20 points ahead in the polls.
As it stands, the most likely scenario is Theresa May will get a deal, fudged and muddled, but a deal, so the government can hold the line against second referendum and in a couple of years the UK will emerge from the deep post-Brexit recession humbled, a lot poorer but sort of intact and ready to start fixing the damage. It will of course take decades.
Of course there are still other scenarios, including the collapse of the government leading second referendum, and that is what the Remainers increasingly hope for. It is also the most likely option if the ERG refuses to back the PM.
So the Hard right is probably beaten any road up, and in their despair they are proven Mrs. May 100% correct about "The Nasty Party".
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Yes it is - you're projecting your own idea of expression onto all of us. Why should you require patriots to march with one flag rather than another? Freedom of expression is central to most ideas of British identity, and if you want to carry someone else's flag as a symbol of solidarity with them, why not?
There's a similar debate going on in the US over respect for the US flag (the bend the knee thing).
Patriotism for the UK means you’d want to march with the flag of the UK. I’m not projecting anything. It’s a complete truism.
I think some are missing the counterpoint here too. Many marching on that march simply weren’t patriotic. They contain those who actually deeply ashamed of the UK and identify more closely with the EU, or think the idea of the UK has had it’s day and is a regressive idea.
That’s a real problem for you in winning people over because your motives and loyalties will be questioned if others are so obviously on display.
I’m not arguing for forcing anyone to carry any flag, incidentally; I am questioning and challenging their choices.
Thanks to remainers who constantly interfered with and objected to no deal preparations from an early stage because they couldn’t accept the reality that the EU were not going to be reasonable and that all negotiations can, indeed, end in failure.
And now, of course, it turns out the remainers favourite appeaser can’t get a deal done.
Do not blame Remainers because Leave has turned out to be the rather obvious disaster that was predicted.
Leavers were told it was going to be like this and those of us favouring Remain where called traitors or delusional. You have supported this shambles loudly and consistently whereas I would be prepared to press the "Stop" and try to repair the damage that has been done.
We have the lowest unemployment in over 40 years, a vanishing deficit, austerity is coming to an end, migration numbers are down, a withdrawal deal is in sight, and almost all the legislation is in place, except the trade and agriculture bills. Our society is peaceful, stable, functional and as secure as before.
I refer you to my previous answer (above)
As for migration, it is down because we are no longer seen as a welcoming, impartial and fair society. We have manage to stop short of running foreigners out of town using pitchforks and burning torches so I suppose that is a victory
It has been stressful and divisive. I suppose you could call that “a disaster” but I don’t think it’s of quite the same magnitude that some Remainers are alluding to when they describe it so.
At least it has settled one thing - Britain's post-Imperial place in the world. We have decided to be a second-line power with reduced influence.
The “we haven’t yet left” argument might carry more currency if, at the same time, it wasn’t being argued that Brexit was already a demonstrable disaster.
You can’t have it both ways.
I shall state it more concisely for you then. When I say "Brexit is a disaster" I mean "The Brexit process of leaving the EU is a disaster". You can hardly call the last two years and example of glorious success.
Since we have not left yet, we have not had Brexit yet, but in future I shall try and remember to refer to it as TBPOLTEUIAD
Mr. kjh, leaving aside your decadent golfophilia, that point is on Mr. Royale's side of the argument.
You take the flag of the side you support. The UK is negotiating (ha) to leave the EU. The 'other side' of the table *is* the EU. That's the message many will receive.
Those pro-EU undoubtedly see it as merely expressing their support for the UK's continued membership (and the EU flag as one that includes beneath its umbrella the UK). But we voted to leave and, apparently, are going to do so.
That said, I think it's perhaps tricky for us here to try and guess the mind of floating voters, particularly those less politically engaged.
Mr D dont waste your time
were having a full on outbreak of Brexit fever this morning, you have to let it burn itself out
Would you like some banjo music to helps pass the time ? Here's Earl Scruggs
Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility in full flight today.
Brexit is becoming a fiasco because it always was a fiasco. The xenophobic lies that the Leavers happily fell in behind have holed it below the waterline.
Nothing to do with xenophobic lies -- the problem is incompetent politicians rushing ahead without agreeing a destination, let alone a route to get there: Cameron and May should have nailed down what Brexit is supposed to look like before launching the referendum or triggering Article 50 respectively. Two years on and six months left and there is still no agreement even within the Cabinet and it's not because they hate foreigners.
Yep, politicians are crap shock. Whoever would have thought it?
Senior Citizen John L is in any case mistaken. What's flooring the Cabinet is that they are trapped by the parameters set by the referendum campaign. They don't want to leave us all scavenging for dead rats and out of date insulin, but the Brexit mandate obtained was inconsistent with any deal they could cut and get through Parliament.
Surely the mandate was "Leave". No conditions were set on the type of "Leave". Any old "Leave" will do ...
Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility in full flight today.
Brexit is becoming a fiasco because it always was a fiasco. The xenophobic lies that the Leavers happily fell in behind have holed it below the waterline.
Nothing to do with xenophobic lies -- the problem is incompetent politicians rushing ahead without agreeing a destination, let alone a route to get there: Cameron and May should have nailed down what Brexit is supposed to look like before launching the referendum or triggering Article 50 respectively. Two years on and six months left and there is still no agreement even within the Cabinet and it's not because they hate foreigners.
Yep, politicians are crap shock. Whoever would have thought it?
Senior Citizen John L is in any case mistaken. What's flooring the Cabinet is that they are trapped by the parameters set by the referendum campaign. They don't want to leave us all scavenging for dead rats and out of date insulin, but the Brexit mandate obtained was inconsistent with any deal they could cut and get through Parliament.
Surely the mandate was "Leave". No conditions were set on the type of "Leave". Any old "Leave" will do ...
Millions of Turks were waiting to invade us. Leave will need to stop them.
Mr. kjh, leaving aside your decadent golfophilia, that point is on Mr. Royale's side of the argument.
You take the flag of the side you support. The UK is negotiating (ha) to leave the EU. The 'other side' of the table *is* the EU. That's the message many will receive.
Those pro-EU undoubtedly see it as merely expressing their support for the UK's continued membership (and the EU flag as one that includes beneath its umbrella the UK). But we voted to leave and, apparently, are going to do so.
That said, I think it's perhaps tricky for us here to try and guess the mind of floating voters, particularly those less politically engaged.
decadent golfophilia
Well clearly the marchers support the EU. I think that is self evident, but the point is the purpose of why they were there. If I were there I would have had a European flag as I would have had at the golf, but a flag of St George at the Rugby and a Union flag at the Olympics, CR has no right to challenge the marchers patriotism as he has absolutely no idea.
Just as he has absolutely no idea about the numbers.
On that note, a classical quiz question: what word links death and wealth in Greek mythology? It is one used (not commonly, but you'll recognise it) in English.
Mr. kjh, leaving aside your decadent golfophilia, that point is on Mr. Royale's side of the argument.
You take the flag of the side you support. The UK is negotiating (ha) to leave the EU. The 'other side' of the table *is* the EU. That's the message many will receive.
Those pro-EU undoubtedly see it as merely expressing their support for the UK's continued membership (and the EU flag as one that includes beneath its umbrella the UK). But we voted to leave and, apparently, are going to do so.
That said, I think it's perhaps tricky for us here to try and guess the mind of floating voters, particularly those less politically engaged.
People can have more than one identity. They can, for example, feel British and European. They may wish to express both of those identities. On a march about the EU, that might well involve the EU flag.
I have even heard that some Yorkshiremen feel British, English and Yorkshire. Crazy, I know.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Yes it is - you're projecting your own idea of expression onto all of us. Why should you require patriots to march with one flag rather than another? Freedom of expression is central to most ideas of British identity, and if you want to carry someone else's flag as a symbol of solidarity with them, why not?
There's a similar debate going on in the US over respect for the US flag (the bend the knee thing).
Patriotism for the UK means you’d want to march with the flag of the UK. I’m not projecting anything. It’s a complete truism.
I think some are missing the counterpoint here too. Many marching on that march simply weren’t patriotic. They contain those who actually deeply ashamed of the UK and identify more closely with the EU, or think the idea of the UK has had it’s day and is a regressive idea.
That’s a real problem for you in winning people over because your motives and loyalties will be questioned if others are so obviously on display.
I’m not arguing for forcing anyone to carry any flag, incidentally; I am questioning and challenging their choices.
You are saying you cannot be a patriot on a march unless you march with a Union flag. That is nonsense. I could quite happily pick up an EU flag and march with it without losing a single scintilla of my British identity. Likewise, I will wave an England flag at an England game and that would not stop me being a patriotic Briton. For me, it is profoundly unpatriotic to judge other people's patriotism.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Yes it is - you're projecting your own idea of expression onto all of us. Why should you require patriots to march with one flag rather than another? Freedom of expression is central to most ideas of British identity, and if you want to carry someone else's flag as a symbol of solidarity with them, why not?
There's a similar debate going on in the US over respect for the US flag (the bend the knee thing).
Patriotism for the UK means you’d want to march with the flag of the UK. I’m not projecting anything. It’s a complete truism.
I think some are missing the counterpoint here too. Many marching on that march simply weren’t patriotic. They contain those who actually deeply ashamed of the UK and identify more closely with the EU, or think the idea of the UK has had it’s day and is a regressive idea.
That’s a real problem for you in winning people over because your motives and loyalties will be questioned if others are so obviously on display.
I’m not arguing for forcing anyone to carry any flag, incidentally; I am questioning and challenging their choices.
Does your love of the UK flag mean you are deeply ashamed of England? Why do you support the superstate that constrains English sovereignty and allows us to be dictated to by Arlene Foster?
But those two identities (British and European) are on opposing sides of the negotiating table. If you pick your flag, you've picked your side. That may not be the conclusion you'd draw, but it is not unreasonable.
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Yes it is - you're projecting your own idea of expression onto all of us. Why should you require patriots to march with one flag rather than another? Freedom of expression is central to most ideas of British identity, and if you want to carry someone else's flag as a symbol of solidarity with them, why not?
There's a similar debate going on in the US over respect for the US flag (the bend the knee thing).
Patriotism for the UK means you’d want to march with the flag of the UK. I’m not projecting anything. It’s a complete truism.
I think some are missing the counterpoint here too. Many marching on that march simply weren’t patriotic. They contain those who actually deeply ashamed of the UK and identify more closely with the EU, or think the idea of the UK has had it’s day and is a regressive idea.
That’s a real problem for you in winning people over because your motives and loyalties will be questioned if others are so obviously on display.
I’m not arguing for forcing anyone to carry any flag, incidentally; I am questioning and challenging their choices.
Does your love of the UK flag mean you are deeply ashamed of England? Why do you support the superstate that constrains English sovereignty and allows us to be dictated to by Arlene Foster?
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link ause we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Too late, the PM, Chancellor, Foreign and Home Secretary are all Remainers and they are about to sign off on a lengthy SM + CU transition period deal for the whole UK plus after a few quibbles and fudges the backstop for NI.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
Not necessary true. Both Hunt and Javid are looking at this through their own desire to be PM. Both know that siding with TM on that sort of deal would see them vulnerable to a more Brexit-style leadership contender.
May will win any no confidence vote anyway, most Tory MPs backed Remain.
Hunt and Javid will ensure the media are leaked details of their Brexity harrumphs from time to time but both will sign off on what May agrees as neither wants to be lumbered with a No Deal Premiership disaster and they are happy to ensure May takes most of the blame for the cave in to the EU
I think it’s pretty clear patriots should be marching with their own nation’s flag. This isn’t a contentious point.
Yes it is - you're projecting your own idea of expression onto all of us. Why should you require patriots to march with one flag rather than another? Freedom of expression is central to most ideas of British identity, and if you want to carry someone else's flag as a symbol of solidarity with them, why not?
There's a similar debate going on in the US over respect for the US flag (the bend the knee thing).
Patriotism for the UK means you’d want to march with the flag of the UK. I’m not projecting anything. It’s a complete truism.
I think some are missing the counterpoint here too. Many marching on that march simply weren’t patriotic. They contain those who actually deeply ashamed of the UK and identify more closely with the EU, or think the idea of the UK has had it’s day and is a regressive idea.
That’s a real problem for you in winning people over because your motives and loyalties will be questioned if others are so obviously on display.
I’m not arguing for forcing anyone to carry any flag, incidentally; I am questioning and challenging their choices.
You are saying you cannot be a patriot on a march unless you march with a Union flag. That is nonsense. I could quite happily pick up an EU flag and march with it without losing a single scintilla of my British identity. Likewise, I will wave an England flag at an England game and that would not stop me being a patriotic Briton. For me, it is profoundly unpatriotic to judge other people's patriotism.
Which flag should I wave? The Union one? The Tricolour? Or (given my scottish connections) the Saltire?
For those (no doubt few) interested in the Glasgow strike, an illuminating thread. Ian Smart is a lawyer, long time SLab member and has very few competitors in his depth of loathing for the SNP.
SLab has really had only one job over the last 4 years, not to get whatever duffer is leading them elected as FM, kill the SNP stone dead or to regain Scotland for Jeremy, but to reduce cynicism about the crusading party of progress & social justice (sic). Looks like they've f*cked it again.
Casino is right that people seeking to persuade others shouldn't try to wind them up at the same time. His own posts (defining exactly what a patriot should carry, for instance) are sometimes a good example of how not to do it. By contrast, the even-tempered archer101au, who seems to have more militant Brexity views, is more readable, interesting and sometimes persuasive.
But basically none of us can sensibly spend time here trying to convert each other - the idea is more to have a reasonably friendly discussion.
My point is that the marchers were talking to themselves and not the unconverted. The impression a sea of EU flags makes on the floating voter, yet alone a Brexiteer, is not a good one.
You’d have thought they’d be interested in how to win others over to their side, but perhaps not.
Perhaps the exercise is primarily to just feel good about themselves?
Well I don't see why people shouldn't want to feel good about themselves, but that wasn't why I was on the march.
On the flags thing, there were plenty of union jacks around but it was a march about Europe so carrying our European flag rather than our British flag seemed perfectly appropriate. The European one is the one that a lot of us want to keep.
As to winning people over, I don't think a march is a great way of doing that. But it does indicate the scale of support for something. That is important. It is also a very good way of building an organisation. I have now made contact with several people in my local area who share my views so we can now work together to achieve things. For example, we have a very remain-friendly MP. I wouldn't rule out signing up to his local association if there were moves to replace him with somebody more phobic. Small scale parochial stuff maybe, but multiply that by 600,000 across the whole country and we might start seeing some change.
Mr. kjh, leaving aside your decadent golfophilia, that point is on Mr. Royale's side of the argument.
You take the flag of the side you support. The UK is negotiating (ha) to leave the EU. The 'other side' of the table *is* the EU. That's the message many will receive.
Those pro-EU undoubtedly see it as merely expressing their support for the UK's continued membership (and the EU flag as one that includes beneath its umbrella the UK). But we voted to leave and, apparently, are going to do so.
That said, I think it's perhaps tricky for us here to try and guess the mind of floating voters, particularly those less politically engaged.
Mr D dont waste your time
were having a full on outbreak of Brexit fever this morning, you have to let it burn itself out
Would you like some banjo music to helps pass the time ? Here's Earl Scruggs
I'm not arguing about Brexit (directly anyway). You will see I haven't responded to any other leaver. It is just this fixation of CR which causes me to rise to the bait.
Casino Royale, utterly obsessed with the numbers on Saturday’s march, using epithets like “traitor” and “Gallic twats” in the last week. A living, breathing reminder of why we voted Remain.
You need to get a sense of humour.
Most of your posts on here are deeply personal. I note the paucity of arguments in them, so I can only assume you find the hyperbolic venting cathartic.
Nope. You need to stop posting xenophobic, misanthropic vitriol and calling it “humour”, last line of defence for the deeply unfunny.
I will post whatever I like, however I like, within the rules of this site. You don’t get to police me, despite how some of your generation seem to see it as your right to do so.
Occasionally that will include fruity and expressive language. Deal with it.
You’re the same, and no better than me or anyone else, so climb down off your high horse.
We are probably of the same generation. Go ahead, carry on being xenophobic. As you say, there is nothing I can do to save you from yourself.
You're really being deeply offensive today. Dial it back.
But those two identities (British and European) are on opposing sides of the negotiating table. If you pick your flag, you've picked your side. That may not be the conclusion you'd draw, but it is not unreasonable.
It’s a conclusion mad paranoid hateful cretins might draw, I grant you.
Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility in full flight today.
Brexit is becoming a fiasco because it always was a fiasco. The xenophobic lies that the Leavers happily fell in behind have holed it below the waterline.
Nothing to do with xenophobic lies -- the problem is incompetent politicians rushing ahead without agreeing a destination, let alone a route to get there: Cameron and May should have nailed down what Brexit is supposed to look like before launching the referendum or triggering Article 50 respectively. Two years on and six months left and there is still no agreement even within the Cabinet and it's not because they hate foreigners.
Yep, politicians are crap shock. Whoever would have thought it?
Senior Citizen John L is in any case mistaken. What's flooring the Cabinet is that they are trapped by the parameters set by the referendum campaign. They don't want to leave us all scavenging for dead rats and out of date insulin, but the Brexit mandate obtained was inconsistent with any deal they could cut and get through Parliament.
Yep, it is a fair point. The Brexit promised was always entirely undeliverable. May, of course, compounded things with her attacks on Remain voters, by triggering A50 before having a plan and by drawing her absurd red lines, but the fundamental is that it is impossible to have all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides.
Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility in full flight today.
Brexit is becoming a fiasco because it always was a fiasco. The xenophobic lies that the Leavers happily fell in behind have holed it below the waterline.
Nothing to do with xenophobic lies -- the problem is incompetent politicians rushing ahead without agreeing a destination, let alone a route to get there: Cameron and May should have nailed down what Brexit is supposed to look like before launching the referendum or triggering Article 50 respectively. Two years on and six months left and there is still no agreement even within the Cabinet and it's not because they hate foreigners.
Yep, politicians are crap shock. Whoever would have thought it?
Senior Citizen John L is in any case mistaken. What's flooring the Cabinet is that they are trapped by the parameters set by the referendum campaign. They don't want to leave us all scavenging for dead rats and out of date insulin, but the Brexit mandate obtained was inconsistent with any deal they could cut and get through Parliament.
Surely the mandate was "Leave". No conditions were set on the type of "Leave". Any old "Leave" will do ...
Millions of Turks were waiting to invade us. Leave will need to stop them.
Block up the Chunnel, close the airports and blockade the ports. That should do it and we get "Leave" as a bonus
The EU will not offer CETA without the backstop for NI and then only for GB.
However reports last night suggest they are willing to compromise with May and a CU for the whole UK alongside the backstop for NI and nearer to May's plans
The EU didn’t even raise the backstop until half way through the talks, when they realised Appeaser May would back down on any threat. The UK should have walked rather then enter any discussion on internal UK arrangements. Remainers told us to accept the backstop and now it will lead to no deal. Well done!
You clearly don’t understand what is being offered. The EUs offer is exatly the same as it was when Raab ran off to shut it down. They were always prepared to offer a promise for an all UK CU AFTER Brexit, but the promise is non binding and the NI backstop needs to remain. And it will be permanent. So it gets May nowhere. She was forced on Monday to say the exact opposite in the House of Commons.
The EU clearly see the CU as the long term solution which should spark the thought in remainer heads that it might not be a good idea for the UK. May is saying that it is a transition arrangement to Chequers. She is delusional. Now the Cabinet have stood up to her she won’t even get her mad scheme through the Cabinet let alone the Commons. Only the hard core remainers in the Cabinet support her now - the ‘sofr remainers’ such as Hunt and Javid have turned on her.
Remainers are bringing us no deal. Couldn’t make it up.
The EU has always been clear the Good Friday Agreement must be protected and there must be no hard border in Ireland.
They are now offering a Deal keeping the whole UK in the Customs Union temporarily while a solution is found to the backstop with a separate Treaty to the Withdrawal Agreement
On that note, a classical quiz question: what word links death and wealth in Greek mythology? It is one used (not commonly, but you'll recognise it) in English.
Ok Mr D, that one has me stumped. Im not internet cheating so Hades, Styx, cant derive a word from either
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Too late, the PM, Chancellor, Foreign and Home Secretary are all Remainers and they are about to sign off on a lengthy SM + CU transition period deal for the whole UK plus after a few quibbles and fudges the backstop for NI.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
Well, you have finally admitted what I have said all alomg - Remainers are in charge.
So Remainers will be responsible for no deal.
Thanks for that!
No Remainers will be responsible for the BINO deal we are about to get.
But those two identities (British and European) are on opposing sides of the negotiating table. If you pick your flag, you've picked your side. That may not be the conclusion you'd draw, but it is not unreasonable.
It’s a conclusion mad paranoid hateful cretins might draw, I grant you.
Mr. kjh, leaving aside your decadent golfophilia, that point is on Mr. Royale's side of the argument.
You take the flag of the side you support. The UK is negotiating (ha) to leave the EU. The 'other side' of the table *is* the EU. That's the message many will receive.
Those pro-EU undoubtedly see it as merely expressing their support for the UK's continued membership (and the EU flag as one that includes beneath its umbrella the UK). But we voted to leave and, apparently, are going to do so.
That said, I think it's perhaps tricky for us here to try and guess the mind of floating voters, particularly those less politically engaged.
People can have more than one identity. They can, for example, feel British and European. They may wish to express both of those identities. On a march about the EU, that might well involve the EU flag.
I have even heard that some Yorkshiremen feel British, English and Yorkshire. Crazy, I know.
I have a London, an English, a British and a European identity.
In England I am a Londoner and always will be, wherever I live. In the three other parts of the UK I am English. Always and undoubtedly. In Europe I am British, though they generally call me English. In Commonwealth countries I am English and in the US I always feel utterly European. I have no discomfort with any of that.
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Too late, the PM, Chancellor, Foreign and Home Secretary are all Remainers and they are about to sign off on a lengthy SM + CU transition period deal for the whole UK plus after a few quibbles and fudges the backstop for NI.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
Well, you have finally admitted what I have said all alomg - Remainers are in charge.
So Remainers will be responsible for no deal.
Thanks for that!
No Remainers will be responsible for the BINO deal we are about to get.
Leavers abandoned the field
I'm sure Lord Justice X's public inquiry in 2024 will establish, after several years of interviewing witnesses, those who are to blame.
Mr. kjh, leaving aside your decadent golfophilia, that point is on Mr. Royale's side of the argument.
You take the flag of the side you support. The UK is negotiating (ha) to leave the EU. The 'other side' of the table *is* the EU. That's the message many will receive.
Those pro-EU undoubtedly see it as merely expressing their support for the UK's continued membership (and the EU flag as one that includes beneath its umbrella the UK). But we voted to leave and, apparently, are going to do so.
That said, I think it's perhaps tricky for us here to try and guess the mind of floating voters, particularly those less politically engaged.
Mr D dont waste your time
were having a full on outbreak of Brexit fever this morning, you have to let it burn itself out
Would you like some banjo music to helps pass the time ? Here's Earl Scruggs
I'm not arguing about Brexit (directly anyway). You will see I haven't responded to any other leaver. It is just this fixation of CR which causes me to rise to the bait.
Having said that, damn it your right.
when the knuckle dragging Ulsterman is the voice of calm you know youre in trouble :-)
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Too late, the PM, Chancellor, Foreign and Home Secretary are all Remainers and they are about to sign off on a lengthy SM + CU transition period deal for the whole UK plus after a few quibbles and fudges the backstop for NI.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
Leadsom? Seriously? And what great strategy would she embark on? She does not even talk a good fight....
Leadsom was the ERG candidate against May, May got 60% of Tory MPs behind her to 25% for Leadsom
The Leavers were right all along. The EU were in a weak opening posiiton because the treaties do not provide any right to any termination payments or liabilities. They are also not actually able to deliver a trade agreement, so there was really no reason to ever discuss the Brexit bill at all.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
Brilliant :-D
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
We would be delighted. So step number one is that you accept that you lost. Step number two, you are not getting a re-vote. Step number three, we need to remove remainers from positions of responsibility.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
Too late, the PM, Chancellor, Foreign and Home Secretary are all Remainers and they are about to sign off on a lengthy SM + CU transition period deal for the whole UK plus after a few quibbles and fudges the backstop for NI.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
Well, you have finally admitted what I have said all alomg - Remainers are in charge.
So Remainers will be responsible for no deal.
Thanks for that!
No Remainers will be responsible for the BINO deal we are about to get.
Leavers abandoned the field
I'm sure Lord Justice X's public inquiry in 2024 will establish, after several years of interviewing witnesses, those who are to blame.
And we may well still be in the transition period even then
That’s a real problem for you in winning people over because your motives and loyalties will be questioned if others are so obviously on display.
Nobody is marching (or posting on here) in the hope or expectation of changing anybody's minds. We're just taking early occupation of the moral Golan Heights.
Casino is right that people seeking to persuade others shouldn't try to wind them up at the same time. His own posts (defining exactly what a patriot should carry, for instance) are sometimes a good example of how not to do it. By contrast, the even-tempered archer101au, who seems to have more militant Brexity views, is more readable, interesting and sometimes persuasive.
But basically none of us can sensibly spend time here trying to convert each other - the idea is more to have a reasonably friendly discussion.
My point is that the marchers were talking to themselves and not the unconverted. The impression a sea of EU flags makes on the floating voter, yet alone a Brexiteer, is not a good one.
You’d have thought they’d be interested in how to win others over to their side, but perhaps not.
Perhaps the exercise is primarily to just feel good about themselves?
Well I don't see why people shouldn't want to feel good about themselves, but that wasn't why I was on the march.
On the flags thing, there were plenty of union jacks around but it was a march about Europe so carrying our European flag rather than our British flag seemed perfectly appropriate. The European one is the one that a lot of us want to keep.
As to winning people over, I don't think a march is a great way of doing that. But it does indicate the scale of support for something. That is important. It is also a very good way of building an organisation. I have now made contact with several people in my local area who share my views so we can now work together to achieve things. For example, we have a very remain-friendly MP. I wouldn't rule out signing up to his local association if there were moves to replace him with somebody more phobic. Small scale parochial stuff maybe, but multiply that by 600,000 across the whole country and we might start seeing some change.
Multiply by 350,000.
The 700,000 figure (which i note even you keep changing, from 570 to 700 and now back to 600 again) is totally made up based on wishful thinking.
Comments
Have a good morning.
It has been stressful and divisive. I suppose you could call that “a disaster” but I don’t think it’s of quite the same magnitude that some Remainers are alluding to when they describe it so.
But remainers insisted that we accept their sequencing because we needed to keep the EU happy and we could never walk away. They pratted on about power imbalances and how they knew how it all worked. So we threw away our trump card for nothing.
Then, thanks to the bleating of remainers about ‘soft Brexit’ the UK Government spent two years trying to cherry pick the single market when Leavers kept telling them to go for CETA.
Then, remainers undermined the UK at every stage by stopping no deal preparations and running off to Brussels to tell them the UK would cave and remain in the EU.
Then, you got May to propose Chequers and confidently predicted it would mean Soft Brexit and that the Leavers were finished and May was a genius for facing then down.
Result - no deal and not prepared for no deal. Well done remainers!
All we had to do from day 1 is offer CETA in return for the Brexit Bill and refuse to even start talks until the EU had agreed to drop the sequencing and link the bill to delivery of the FTA. We could have spent two years getting ready for no deal but the EU would have come back to the table and we would have negotiated from a position of strength.
The remainers have been in charge the whole way. They have conceded the whole way. They found out how ‘international power networks’ work all right - if you keep conceding to a bully, you get screwed. You were the fools. Because we did it all your way, and now you cannot even agree a deal!
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2018/10/23/georgia-naacp-filed-complaint-voting-errors-some-counties/1741406002/
But basically none of us can sensibly spend time here trying to convert each other - the idea is more to have a reasonably friendly discussion.
The idea that anything written down in a Treaty is immutable just doesnt stack up.Imbalanced treaties never stand the test of time.
You and your mates made this mess. You own it. It's your fault. Cheers!
Your lot have been trying to redefine a nation state on the sly. Got caught. Are now hyper-defensive.
May's been mishandling the negotiations and preparations. How is she 'Leave's mate'?
This Calais threat story is a case in point. None of the theorized actions, from us not paying to France retaliating in that way, appear to be inevitable, which means if either side chooses to go down that route it may or may not be justified but it is still on them for choosing that response, reasonably or not. Or we could all act like babies and go 'wah, the the other lot started it the meanies' and act like everyone had no choice and therefore no responsibility for their actions. It also insults those others by robbing them of agency and suggesting they must always pick silly options.
As an analogy I am of using has it, if I tread on your foot intentionally that's my fault and deserves a response. If you respond by punching me in the face repeatedly you are more at fault even though you were provoked.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/10/england-s-political-narcissism-could-break-union
However reports last night suggest they are willing to compromise with May and a CU for the whole UK alongside the backstop for NI and nearer to May's plans
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6308325/EU-set-offer-UK-wide-customs-deal-bid-solve-Brexit-talks.html
Brexit is becoming a fiasco because it always was a fiasco. The xenophobic lies that the Leavers happily fell in behind have holed it below the waterline.
I''ve never believed it would be easy to Brexit, and indeed, it's one of the reasons we have to leave and leave now.
The EU had as its aim a shining city on a hill, or some such aspirational twaddle, but joining disparate countries together for mutual benefits threw up awkward problems as it evolved. It requires mutual trust to start with and that's always been sadly lacking - human nature always intervenes.
The communist manifesto is aspirational but it assumes human nature is close to perfect if you remove the baddies.(their variety of baddies). At least, organised religion recognises we're a bunch of sinners.
This isn't a huge threat to democracy since it's immediately visible to the voter, who will get upset and call USA Today. The real threat is what happens after the machine registers your vote, which in a lot of cases is horribly insecure and can't be verified properly. (That and what happens to people who never get as far as voting, because they're the victim of various shenanigans by partisan election administrators.)
Dial it back indeed.
The "in place" list is - according to the EU - more like 50 (as of 2013). And that includes close neighbours such as all the members of the EEA, and also world dominators such as San Marino and Andorra, and an individual listing of small countries in the West Indies.
Locked out? No.
By some strange serendipity, that is pretty much the same ratio by which they exaggerated their numbers of supporters on the demo :-D .
Eu Doc December 2013:
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2012/november/tradoc_150129.pdf
Especially when fanatical Leavers insist 'we hold all the cards' to force the EU to a FTA when r5% of our exports go to the EU and just 16% of EU exports come here
The Scottish and Welsh Tory MPs have been very influential. Wales also voted to Leave and applied its legislative consent to the Withdrawal Bill. Scotland is a much harder nut to crack as it’s so partisan and divided from the last referendum. NI doesn’t have an assembly.
Where i do agree with you is that some sort of cross-party constitutional assembly would probably have been a better way to do Brexit but, given the partisan divides at the start, I’m not sure that’d have ever been possible.
Then we will sort out the mess you made.
I refer you to my previous answer (above)
As for migration, it is down because we are no longer seen as a welcoming, impartial and fair society. We have manage to stop short of running foreigners out of town using pitchforks and burning torches so I suppose that is a victory
At least it has settled one thing - Britain's post-Imperial place in the world. We have decided to be a second-line power with reduced influence.
If you wanted No Deal you needed Leadsom to beat May in 2016
Raikkonen to get the best qualifying time each way at 10 seems tempting (third the odds top 2). The US race showed us the wild divergence in qualifying to race performance (consider Verstappen's race result with Ricciardo's qualifying time, even allowing for the Dutchman being a tenth or two faster).
I've also put a little, on Betfair, on Verstappen at 5.6 for the win, hedged at evens. Mexico as a circuit should suit the Red Bull a lot more, and less tyre wear could be critical for a race highly likely to have a single stop due to the potentially tricky nature of overtaking.
You clearly don’t understand what is being offered. The EUs offer is exatly the same as it was when Raab ran off to shut it down. They were always prepared to offer a promise for an all UK CU AFTER Brexit, but the promise is non binding and the NI backstop needs to remain. And it will be permanent. So it gets May nowhere. She was forced on Monday to say the exact opposite in the House of Commons.
The EU clearly see the CU as the long term solution which should spark the thought in remainer heads that it might not be a good idea for the UK. May is saying that it is a transition arrangement to Chequers. She is delusional. Now the Cabinet have stood up to her she won’t even get her mad scheme through the Cabinet let alone the Commons. Only the hard core remainers in the Cabinet support her now - the ‘sofr remainers’ such as Hunt and Javid have turned on her.
Remainers are bringing us no deal. Couldn’t make it up.
You can’t have it both ways.
So Remainers will be responsible for no deal.
Thanks for that!
You’d have thought they’d be interested in how to win others over to their side, but perhaps not.
Perhaps the exercise is primarily to just feel good about themselves?
If I go to the Olympics I take a Union flag
If I go to the Ryder Cup I take the European flag.
Get it? The depth of your logic in these exchanges is wafer thin. You seem to be blinded by your bias?
Finally on the numbers at the march, for which you are doing an absolutely superb job for the Remainers cause, can we see your calculations or is just you so desperately want the number to be so low?
The actual number doesn't matter. It was impressive and you seem not to be able to accept that. It probably won't make an iota of difference, but if it does you are helping that cause.
Surely you must realise by now this is very desperate stuff.
There's a similar debate going on in the US over respect for the US flag (the bend the knee thing).
You also have the fact that those 100K in seats like Islington will never vote for the Tories and Lib Dems. They might vote for the Greens but they would never pose a threat to those seats. However, the 100K in seats like Darlington etc are showing they might vote for the Tories. So that 30-40 seat loss could easily be something worse as the vote loss is doubled (i.e. they stop voting for Labour AND they vote Conservative).
Corbyn gets it far more than many of those who criticise him as daft.
You take the flag of the side you support. The UK is negotiating (ha) to leave the EU. The 'other side' of the table *is* the EU. That's the message many will receive.
Those pro-EU undoubtedly see it as merely expressing their support for the UK's continued membership (and the EU flag as one that includes beneath its umbrella the UK). But we voted to leave and, apparently, are going to do so.
That said, I think it's perhaps tricky for us here to try and guess the mind of floating voters, particularly those less politically engaged.
In such company even the shambolic and incompetent policies of the current regime look half way credible, and that is why the PM is seeing her support rise. A good deal of it is that the Hard Right still offers nothing of substance, just venomous invective against all and sundry. When John Major (privately) called the anti-European "Bastards" it was not just a reflection of the grief that they gave his government, it was also that several of them were indeed pretty horrible people. The Stewart Jackson unpleasantness is just the tip of an ugly fatberg of nastiness which at best lacks all dignity and at worst is genuinely demeaning our democracy.
However, I think that the voters are being a lot more discerning and pragmatic than the politicians. For example, I could certainly see Boris Johnson lose his seat at the next general election, even as the Conservatives, quite possibly still under Theresa May, take a majority.
I don't think it is that controversial now to say that Labour under Corbyn has no chance of government. However, if Sir Kier Starmer was Labour leader they would be 20 points ahead in the polls.
As it stands, the most likely scenario is Theresa May will get a deal, fudged and muddled, but a deal, so the government can hold the line against second referendum and in a couple of years the UK will emerge from the deep post-Brexit recession humbled, a lot poorer but sort of intact and ready to start fixing the damage. It will of course take decades.
Of course there are still other scenarios, including the collapse of the government leading second referendum, and that is what the Remainers increasingly hope for. It is also the most likely option if the ERG refuses to back the PM.
So the Hard right is probably beaten any road up, and in their despair they are proven Mrs. May 100% correct about "The Nasty Party".
I think some are missing the counterpoint here too. Many marching on that march simply weren’t patriotic. They contain those who actually deeply ashamed of the UK and identify more closely with the EU, or think the idea of the UK has had it’s day and is a regressive idea.
That’s a real problem for you in winning people over because your motives and loyalties will be questioned if others are so obviously on display.
I’m not arguing for forcing anyone to carry any flag, incidentally; I am questioning and challenging their choices.
Since we have not left yet, we have not had Brexit yet, but in future I shall try and remember to refer to it as TBPOLTEUIAD
were having a full on outbreak of Brexit fever this morning, you have to let it burn itself out
Would you like some banjo music to helps pass the time ? Here's Earl Scruggs
https://www.google.com/search?q=earl+scruggs+youtube&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b
Well clearly the marchers support the EU. I think that is self evident, but the point is the purpose of why they were there. If I were there I would have had a European flag as I would have had at the golf, but a flag of St George at the Rugby and a Union flag at the Olympics, CR has no right to challenge the marchers patriotism as he has absolutely no idea.
Just as he has absolutely no idea about the numbers.
He is irrationally shooting from the hip.
Like death. Or taxes.
Ahem.
On that note, a classical quiz question: what word links death and wealth in Greek mythology? It is one used (not commonly, but you'll recognise it) in English.
I have even heard that some Yorkshiremen feel British, English and Yorkshire. Crazy, I know.
But those two identities (British and European) are on opposing sides of the negotiating table. If you pick your flag, you've picked your side. That may not be the conclusion you'd draw, but it is not unreasonable.
Hunt and Javid will ensure the media are leaked details of their Brexity harrumphs from time to time but both will sign off on what May agrees as neither wants to be lumbered with a No Deal Premiership disaster and they are happy to ensure May takes most of the blame for the cave in to the EU
https://twitter.com/ianssmart/status/1054858725633212417
SLab has really had only one job over the last 4 years, not to get whatever duffer is leading them elected as FM, kill the SNP stone dead or to regain Scotland for Jeremy, but to reduce cynicism about the crusading party of progress & social justice (sic). Looks like they've f*cked it again.
On the flags thing, there were plenty of union jacks around but it was a march about Europe so carrying our European flag rather than our British flag seemed perfectly appropriate. The European one is the one that a lot of us want to keep.
As to winning people over, I don't think a march is a great way of doing that. But it does indicate the scale of support for something. That is important. It is also a very good way of building an organisation. I have now made contact with several people in my local area who share my views so we can now work together to achieve things. For example, we have a very remain-friendly MP. I wouldn't rule out signing up to his local association if there were moves to replace him with somebody more phobic. Small scale parochial stuff maybe, but multiply that by 600,000 across the whole country and we might start seeing some change.
I'm not arguing about Brexit (directly anyway). You will see I haven't responded to any other leaver. It is just this fixation of CR which causes me to rise to the bait.
Having said that, damn it your right.
They are now offering a Deal keeping the whole UK in the Customs Union temporarily while a solution is found to the backstop with a separate Treaty to the Withdrawal Agreement
Your opponents will be too confused to know how to react. If they try using the Lancastrian red rose you can claim it's an English symbol
Leavers abandoned the field
https://tinyurl.com/y95ezq8b
In England I am a Londoner and always will be, wherever I live. In the three other parts of the UK I am English. Always and undoubtedly. In Europe I am British, though they generally call me English. In Commonwealth countries I am English and in the US I always feel utterly European. I have no discomfort with any of that.
Ahem, sorry about my faux pas before.
The 700,000 figure (which i note even you keep changing, from 570 to 700 and now back to 600 again) is totally made up based on wishful thinking.
I see I'm a little slow today.