The Standard has it as a full-page "Come with us" front page - haven't seen such naked partisanship outside a General Election.
Brexit is madness. I see no upside to it. The press (Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and Daily Express, the sun etc) gifted Brexit on the UK, maybe other publications can help stop this insane move towards a worse deal than we get at the moment!
Well, that’s silly. There are upsides and downsides to everything.
It depends what you value and how you look at it.
I value a strong economy that can change people's life for the better. I do not think that Brexit offers this. It is a worse deal than we have at the moment.
I sometimes get the impression that Brexiteers think the economy works like some map denoting armies or aircraft from a second world war film. Specifically, we can just switch from one set of rules, arrangements and trade relationships to something else and it will not cause disruption or pain. The point is the world is not like that and it will cause much pain to many people in the UK. I doubt Brexit will mean higher paying jobs for the jobs it destroys. I have suffered financial hardship in my life and I would not want anyone to go through economic hardship as I have suffered in the past. To me Brexit means disruption and economic pain for no positive reason.
I noticed some comments from Johnny Mercer MP on the current state of the Conservative Party. I agree in some respects as the party is nothing if it cannot offer a thriving economy, Brexit will destroy the progress the UK has made since the financial crisis.
I have zero problem about such schemes - as long as they apply to all staff, not just the senior management. After all, a company succeeds and fails as a result of all its staff.
It pi**es me off when management have different t&c wrt pat and options compared to the plebs. Especially when it encourages them to short-term thinking that hurts a company in the short term.
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The Standard has it as a full-page "Come with us" front page - haven't seen such naked partisanship outside a General Election.
Brexit is madness. I see no upside to it. The press (Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and Daily Express, the sun etc) gifted Brexit on the UK, maybe other publications can help stop this insane move towards a worse deal than we get at the moment!
Well, that’s silly. There are upsides and downsides to everything.
It depends what you value and how you look at it.
I value a strong economy that can change people's life for the better. I do not think that Brexit offers this. It is a worse deal than we have at the moment.
I sometimes get the impression that Brexiteers think the economy works like some map denoting armies or aircraft from a second world war film. Specifically, we can just switch from one set of rules, arrangements and trade relationships to something else and it will not cause disruption or pain. The point is the world is not like that and it will cause much pain to many people in the UK. I doubt Brexit will mean higher paying jobs for the jobs it destroys. I have suffered financial hardship in my life and I would not want anyone to go through economic hardship as I have suffered in the past. To me Brexit means disruption and economic pain for no positive reason.
I noticed some comments from Johnny Mercer MP on the current state of the Conservative Party. I agree in some respects as the party is nothing if it cannot offer a thriving economy, Brexit will destroy the progress the UK has made since the financial crisis.
Except, it hasn’t, has it?
The deficit has fallen far faster than expected, unemployment is at a record low and wages are rising.
You hugely exaggerate your case.
Besides which, on current evidence, the choice on Brexit is trading 30% growth by 2030 under “no deal”, but with full political autonomy, versus 37% growth by remaining in the EU but much less.
Many people are happy to make that trade. It’s not all about the money.
The Standard has it as a full-page "Come with us" front page - haven't seen such naked partisanship outside a General Election.
Brexit is madness. I see no upside to it. The press (Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and Daily Express, the sun etc) gifted Brexit on the UK, maybe other publications can help stop this insane move towards a worse deal than we get at the moment!
Well, that’s silly. There are upsides and downsides to everything.
It depends what you value and how you look at it.
I value a strong economy that can change people's life for the better. I do not think that Brexit offers this. It is a worse deal than we have at the moment.
I sometimes get the impression that Brexiteers think the economy works like some map denoting armies or aircraft from a second world war film. Specifically, we can just switch from one set of rules, arrangements and trade relationships to something else and it will not cause disruption or pain. The point is the world is not like that and it will cause much pain to many people in the UK. I doubt Brexit will mean higher paying jobs for the jobs it destroys. I have suffered financial hardship in my life and I would not want anyone to go through economic hardship as I have suffered in the past. To me Brexit means disruption and economic pain for no positive reason.
I noticed some comments from Johnny Mercer MP on the current state of the Conservative Party. I agree in some respects as the party is nothing if it cannot offer a thriving economy, Brexit will destroy the progress the UK has made since the financial crisis.
You simply ignore the democratic deficit, the total erosion of sovereignty, which is the main reason why millions of people like me voted (reluctantly) LEAVE,
I have little to no problem with Freedom of Movement. I am all in favour of the Single Market.
What I object to is the EU turning itself into a superstate, without asking the European people whether they consent, and, whenever it does deign to ask, ignoring any dissenting voices: literally overruling, ignoring or cancelling unhelpful referendums.
Well, here in Britain we don't ignore referendums. We aren't France or Ireland or Holland or wherever. We honour democracy. We helped invent it. The British people are sovereign. So, for good or ill, we are OUT, because we voted OUT.
Firstly, it was not binding. It was advisory. Secondly, Leave cheated. Thirdly, the deal or no deal is worse than the current arrangement.
How bad does it have to get before people like you realise it is a mistake?
I thought the organisers were being a bit reckless in letting the expectations for numbers at the march tomorrow run away a bit. But I've just been trying to find a bus to go on and they all seem to be booked up. There are a few seats going in Brighton thanks to another one being laid on - but all the places in other coaches in West Sussex, around a dozen, are gone. I've never known anything like it.
Fuck, it might be almost as big as the 400,000 who marched to save fox-hunting???
Oh.
I was on the fox hunting march, more or less by accident. I won't be going to London tomorrow.
So was I. I had two friends with me from university who came along to keep me company and for the lolz, neither of whom gave a crap about foxhunting either way.
The plan is to completely alienate ("CU for ever", "part SM: GB for some years; NI for ever") dozens of tory ERG mps, terminally hack off the DUP (bloodredline="there will be NO new differences EVER in the treatment of GB&NI").
Mrs May is then supposed to run a minority Ministry for 3 more years... which will inevitably accept every Brussels diktat on the 'Trade Deal', all the while dependent on the ERG's goodwill, &without Supply&Confidence, and with Corbo The Great opposing everything else.
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
Whilst I want to forego the dubious pleasure of fucking Clegg, he has made himself a hostage to fortune. Facebook will want something for the £1m, and that may soon go against some views he held beforehand.
A silly move IMO. But so lucrative that even a good moral soul such as myself might side with the devil.
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
Fair enough. I'd love to know what Barnier's brief really is. I suspect it may be just obfuscate. It doesn't matter so much anyway as normal Europeans, and normal Brits will find a way to keep the goodwill, and good economic relationships that have long characterised our proximity. Even in the Naploeonic wars (which I think I read were maintained somewhat by the UK to hinder Republicanism) trade between the countries found other routes.
Blair. Clegg etc have the best interests of the country at heart I'm sure. They've just lost themselves - Blair is pehaps just tryjng to find himself. The most extreme example of this is Anna Soubry - I firmly believe that she lost her mind on Brexit day. (I'd not thought much of it beforehand, but I guess she's worse off)
I thought the organisers were being a bit reckless in letting the expectations for numbers at the march tomorrow run away a bit. But I've just been trying to find a bus to go on and they all seem to be booked up. There are a few seats going in Brighton thanks to another one being laid on - but all the places in other coaches in West Sussex, around a dozen, are gone. I've never known anything like it.
Fuck, it might be almost as big as the 400,000 who marched to save fox-hunting???
Oh.
I was on the fox hunting march, more or less by accident. I won't be going to London tomorrow.
So was I. I had two friends with me from university who came along to keep me company and for the lolz, neither of whom gave a crap about foxhunting either way.
I almost certainly had a better - if more expensive - time the night aforehand. we stumbled out of the hotel and got caught up in a wave of very pleasant people.
The venomous hate of the anti-hunt protesters was quite something to behold. Oddly, this conflicts with Nick Palmer's anecdote ...
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
Whilst I want to forego the dubious pleasure of fucking Clegg, he has made himself a hostage to fortune. Facebook will want something for the £1m, and that may soon go against some views he held beforehand.
A silly move IMO. But so lucrative that even a good moral soul such as myself might side with the devil.
Yes the press will constantly ask him about corporate tax payments or lack of. Plus he does not need the money, his wife is a senior partner at a serious law firm in the city.
The Standard has it as a full-page "Come with us" front page - haven't seen such naked partisanship outside a General Election.
Brexit is madness. I see no upside to it. The press (Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and Daily Express, the sun etc) gifted Brexit on the UK, maybe other publications can help stop this insane move towards a worse deal than we get at the moment!
Well, that’s silly. There are upsides and downsides to everything.
It depends what you value and how you look at it.
I value a strong economy that can change people's life for the better. I do not think that Brexit offers this. It is a worse deal than we have at the moment.
I sometimes get the impression that Brexiteers think the economy works like some map denoting armies or aircraft from a second world war film. Specifically, we can just switch from one set of rules, arrangements and trade relationships to something else and it will not cause disruption or pain. The point is the world is not like that and it will cause much pain to many people in the UK. I doubt Brexit will mean higher paying jobs for the jobs it destroys. I have suffered financial hardship in my life and I would not want anyone to go through economic hardship as I have suffered in the past. To me Brexit means disruption and economic pain for no positive reason.
I noticed some comments from Johnny Mercer MP on the current state of the Conservative Party. I agree in some respects as the party is nothing if it cannot offer a thriving economy, Brexit will destroy the progress the UK has made since the financial crisis.
Except, it hasn’t, has it?
The deficit has fallen far faster than expected, unemployment is at a record low and wages are rising.
You hugely exaggerate your case.
Besides which, on current evidence, the choice on Brexit is trading 30% growth by 2030 under “no deal”, but with full political autonomy, versus 37% growth by remaining in the EU but much less.
Many people are happy to make that trade. It’s not all about the money.
People are always in favour of things until it hits them in the pocket!
The reason why the economy has not crashed yet is because we are still in the EU at the moment with free trade, interest rates have been slashed in the aftermath of the vote, the currency has depreciated and the Bank of England did significant QE. Still, the economy is vulnerable and the indications are trouble is on the horizon before we factor Brexit into the equation. Brexit is akin to putting sanctions on our own economy. It is madness.
The Standard has it as a full-page "Come with us" front page - haven't seen such naked partisanship outside a General Election.
Brexit is madness. I see no upside to it. The press (Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and Daily Express, the sun etc) gifted Brexit on the UK, maybe other publications can help stop this insane move towards a worse deal than we get at the moment!
Well, that’s silly. There are upsides and downsides to everything.
It depends what you value and how you look at it.
I value a strong economy that can change people's life for the better. I do not think that Brexit offers this. It is a worse deal than we have at the moment.
I noticed some comments from Johnny Mercer MP on the current state of the Conservative Party. I agree in some respects as the party is nothing if it cannot offer a thriving economy, Brexit will destroy the progress the UK has made since the financial crisis.
You simply ignore the democratic deficit, the total erosion of sovereignty, which is the main reason why millions of people like me voted (reluctantly) LEAVE,
I have little to no problem with Freedom of Movement. I am all in favour of the Single Market.
Well, here in Britain we don't ignore referendums. We aren't France or Ireland or Holland or wherever. We honour democracy. We helped invent it. The British people are sovereign. So, for good or ill, we are OUT, because we voted OUT.
Firstly, it was not binding. It was advisory. Secondly, Leave cheated. Thirdly, the deal or no deal is worse than the current arrangement.
How bad does it have to get before people like you realise it is a mistake?
On your first point: legally you might be correct, but I remember being told that the government would respect the result and implement it. To turn round to the electorate and say ‘sorry, wrong answer’ would have devastating consequences for trust in politicians.
Besides which, we have now had a vote in parliament (indeed a whole Act) and a general election where those parties that supported Brexit got more than 80% of the vote.
I voted remain partially because I thought it would be much harder than Leave were promising but mostly because I didn’t want to be on the same side as Farage and Co. If there is another vote I’m no sure I want to be on the same side as people with the contempt for democracy I’m seeing in posts like this.
The Standard has it as a full-page "Come with us" front page - haven't seen such naked partisanship outside a General Election.
Brexit is madness. I see no upside to it. The press (Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and Daily Express, the sun etc) gifted Brexit on the UK, maybe other publications can help stop this insane move towards a worse deal than we get at the moment!
Well, that’s silly. There are upsides and downsides to everything.
It depends what you value and how you look at it.
I value a strong economy that can change people's life for the better. I do not think that Brexit offers this. It is a worse deal than we have at the moment.
I sometimes get the impression that Brexiteers think the economy works like some map denoting armies or aircraft from a second world war film. Specifically, we can just switch from one set of rules, arrangements and trade relationships to something else and it will not cause disruption SNIPt the moment with free trade, interest rates have been slashed in the aftermath of the vote, the currency has depreciated and the Bank of England did significant QE. Still, the economy is vulnerable and the indications are trouble is on the horizon before we factor Brexit into the equation. Brexit is akin to putting sanctions on our own economy. It is madness.
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
Whilst I want to forego the dubious pleasure of fucking Clegg, he has made himself a hostage to fortune. Facebook will want something for the £1m, and that may soon go against some views he held beforehand.
A silly move IMO. But so lucrative that even a good moral soul such as myself might side with the devil.
Yes the press will constantly ask him about corporate tax payments or lack of. Plus he does not need the money, his wife is a senior partner at a serious law firm in the city.
I think you may have the ladies calling you out on your last paragraph
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
Whilst I want to forego the dubious pleasure of fucking Clegg, he has made himself a hostage to fortune. Facebook will want something for the £1m, and that may soon go against some views he held beforehand.
A silly move IMO. But so lucrative that even a good moral soul such as myself might side with the devil.
I hope he thinks the million quid a year is worth the hatred coming his way. Even the Guardian called his explanation for abandoning Remainerism "weak". If he's lost the Guardian, you can imagine the bilious contempt he will receive elsewhere.
It's a grievous moral error. It's much worse than Miliband taking that absurd refugee job, It's closer to Blair cosying up with Kazakh oligarchs. It totally stinks, and I think he will suffer for it. He will be hated, most of all, I suspect, by dedicated Remainers who will now think he has abandoned the cause at THE crucial time.
Tut. And LOL
*williamglenn impression*
This shows the spade work is done, the 2nd referendum is in the bag
I'm impressed, of that's the right word, by just how dysfunctional the Conservatives have become, thanks to Brexit. No-one apart from May is even trying to get their shit together anymore. By contrast the Labour Party, led by a un-retreaded Marxist is a model of purpose and efficiency.
I have thought up to now that a deal with the EU on its terms was inevitable, but we have reached political catatonia. We can't even accept a year's do nothing extension, because then we might actually need it
The Standard has it as a full-page "Come with us" front page - haven't seen such naked partisanship outside a General Election.
Brexit is madness. I see no upside to it. The press (Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and Daily Express, the sun etc) gifted Brexit on the UK, maybe other publications can help stop this insane move towards a worse deal than we get at the moment!
Well, that’s silly. There are upsides and downsides to everything.
It depends what you value and how you look at it.
I value I noticed some comments from Johnny Mercer MP on the current state of the Conservative Party. I agree in some respects as the party is nothing if it cannot offer a thriving economy, Brexit will destroy the progress the UK has made since the financial crisis.
You simply ignore the democratic deficit, the total erosion of sovereignty, which is the main reason why millions of people like me voted (reluctantly) LEAVE,
I have little to no problem with Freedom of Movement. I am all in favour of the Single Market.
What I object to is the EU turning itself into a superstate, without asking the European people whether they consent, and, whenever it does deign to ask, ignoring any dissenting voices: literally overruling, ignoring or cancelling unhelpful referendums.
Well, here in Britain we don't ignore referendums. We aren't France or Ireland or Holland or wherever. We honour democracy. We helped invent it. The British people are sovereign. So, for good or ill, we are OUT, because we voted OUT.
Firstly, it was not binding. It was advisory. Secondly, Leave cheated. Thirdly, the deal or no deal is worse than the current arrangement.
How bad does it have to get before people like you realise it is a mistake?
In the spirit of the charming, generous Continuity Remain campaign: fuck off, Traitor.
lol, lose the argument and you have to use four word expletives.
As a passing shot, I notice you say "Fuck Nick Clegg" on another comment but I remember seeing on these pages in 2010 you voted lib Dem! I think you lived in Holborn and St Pancras. What does that say about your judgement about him? What does it say about you? Indeed as a observer I also remember you saying sometime in the coalition government that you thought the UK should integrate more with the EU.
The Standard has it as a full-page "Come with us" front page - haven't seen such naked partisanship outside a General Election.
Brexit is madness. I see no upside to it. The press (Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and Daily Express, the sun etc) gifted Brexit on the UK, maybe other publications can help stop this insane move towards a worse deal than we get at the moment!
Well, that’s silly. There are upsides and downsides to everything.
It depends what you value and how you look at it.
I value a strong economy that can change people's life for the better. I do not think that Brexit offers this. It is a worse deal than we have at the moment.
I sometimes get the impression that Brexiteers think the economy works like some map denoting armies or aircraft from a second world war film. Specifically, we can just switch from one set of rules, arrangements and trade relationships to something else and it will not cause disruption or pain. The point is the world is not like that and it will cause much pain to many people in the UK. I doubt Brexit will mean higher paying jobs for the jobs it destroys. I have suffered financial hardship in my life and I would not want anyone to go through economic hardship as I have suffered in the past. To me Brexit means disruption and economic pain for no positive reason.
I noticed some comments from Johnny Mercer MP on the current state of the Conservative Party. I agree in some respects as the party is nothing if it cannot offer a thriving economy, Brexit will destroy the progress the UK has made since the financial crisis.
You simply ignore the democratic deficit, the total erosion of sovereignty, which is the main reason why millions of people like me voted (reluctantly) LEAVE,
I have little to no problem with Freedom of Movement. I am all in favour of the Single Market.
What I object to is the EU turning itself into a superstate, without asking the European people whether they consent, and, whenever it does deign to ask, ignoring any dissenting voices: literally overruling, ignoring or cancelling unhelpful referendums.
Well, here in Britain we don't ignore referendums. We aren't France or Ireland or Holland or wherever. We honour democracy. We helped invent it. The British people are sovereign. So, for good or ill, we are OUT, because we voted OUT.
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
I'm all up for a second referendum.
Remain have been campaigning for a reversal for the last two years, leave have been (for better or worse) trying to get on with the job.
So Remain are slightly ahead in the polls? Pah. May was ahead in the polls when she called last year's GE and look how far that got her once the opposition campaign got started.
A second referendum would probably result in two fingers up at the establishment for daring to ask the same question twice.
The look on the remainers' faces when they lose a second time would be truly beautiful to behold. We beat 'em once, we can beat 'em again.
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
Whilst I want to forego the dubious pleasure of fucking Clegg, he has made himself a hostage to fortune. Facebook will want something for the £1m, and that may soon go against some views he held beforehand.
A silly move IMO. But so lucrative that even a good moral soul such as myself might side with the devil.
Yes the press will constantly ask him about corporate tax payments or lack of. Plus he does not need the money, his wife is a senior partner at a serious law firm in the city.
I think you may have the ladies calling you out on your last paragraph
I thought we were all for equality, no more I earn this money and here is your little share, it all goes in one pot for the family now, does it not?
The Standard has it as a full-page "Come with us" front page - haven't seen such naked partisanship outside a General Election.
Brexit is madness. I see no upside to it. The press (Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and Daily Express, the sun etc) gifted Brexit on the UK, maybe other publications can help stop this insane move towards a worse deal than we get at the moment!
Well, that’s silly. There are upsides and downsides to everything.
It depends what you value and how you look at it.
I value a strong economy that can change people's life for the better. I do not think that Brexit offers this. It is a worse deal than we have at the moment. /
Try fear, more fear and I sometimes get the impression that Brexiteers think the economy works like some map denoti
SNIP
I have little to no problem with Freedom of Movement. I am all in favour of the Single Market.
What I object to is the EU turning itself into a superstate, without asking the European people whether they consent, and, whenever it does deign to ask, ignoring any dissenting voices: literally overruling, ignoring or cancelling unhelpful referendums.
Well, here in Britain we don't ignore referendums. We aren't France or Ireland or Holland or wherever. We honour democracy. We helped invent it. The British people are sovereign. So, for good or ill, we are OUT, because we voted OUT.
Firstly, it was not binding. It was advisory. Secondly, Leave cheated. Thirdly, the deal or no deal is worse than the current arrangement.
How bad does it have to get before people like you realise it is a mistake?
Remain had all the cards - they overspent and even used taxpayers money.
The fact of the matter is we were sold a pup when we joined
The EU was grinding forward taking ever more powers and basically steamrollering any in its path.
We as a people were never asked our views as our political class fuckwits gave our freedom to choose little by little
Yet, no positive case was made why we should remain.....
Of course finding that case would be a touch difficult
so what did they do - lie and lie again
But you are ok with those lies?
some lies matter, others don't?
Cameron himself said leaving would not be a disaster
The Standard has it as a full-page "Come with us" front page - haven't seen such naked partisanship outside a General Election.
Brexit is madness. I see no upside to it. The press (Daily Mail, Daily Telegraph and Daily Express, the sun etc) gifted Brexit on the UK, maybe other publications can help stop this insane move towards a worse deal than we get at the moment!
I noticed some comments from Johnny Mercer MP on the current state of the Conservative Party. I agree in some respects as the party is nothing if it cannot offer a thriving economy, Brexit will destroy the progress the UK has made since the financial crisis.
You simply ignore the democratic deficit, the total erosion of sovereignty, which is the main reason why millions of people like me voted (reluctantly) LEAVE,
Well, here in Britain we don't ignore referendums. We aren't France or Ireland or Holland or wherever. We honour democracy. We helped invent it. The British people are sovereign. So, for good or ill, we are OUT, because we voted OUT.
Firstly, it was not binding. It was advisory. Secondly, Leave cheated. Thirdly, the deal or no deal is worse than the current arrangement.
How bad does it have to get before people like you realise it is a mistake?
On your first point: legally you might be correct, but I remember being told that the government would respect the result and implement it. To turn round to the electorate and say ‘sorry, wrong answer’ would have devastating consequences for trust in politicians.
Besides which, we have now had a vote in parliament (indeed a whole Act) and a general election where those parties that supported Brexit got more than 80% of the vote.
I voted remain partially because I thought it would be much harder than Leave were promising but mostly because I didn’t want to be on the same side as Farage and Co. If there is another vote I’m no sure I want to be on the same side as people with the contempt for democracy I’m seeing in posts like this.
I think it is irrational to keep on following the Brexit path. I simply find it illogical the way Brexit supporters and even some remain people think it is a good idea to make ourselves worse off. It means we will be able to project less power and influence on the world stage to counter the foul mouthed SeanT. I just do not understand it and I thought the days when political decisions that could ruin hundreds of thousands or even millions of lives were over.
People are always in favour of things until it hits them in the pocket!
That is only true for those who don't have discretionary money. Once people have enough money to cover basic physiological and security matters, then they start valuing other things much more.
Witness the EU being anti-GM food, but poor countries not being able to afford that luxury. If what you says holds true for all levels of affluence, the Europeans would be pro-GM, and their would be no organic food movement, or real beer, or indeed any artisanal products, because to buy them hits you in the pocket relative to the mass produced version.
I'm impressed, of that's the right word, by just how dysfunctional the Conservatives have become, thanks to Brexit. No-one apart from May is even trying to get their shit together anymore. By contrast the Labour Party, led by a un-retreaded Marxist is a model of purpose and efficiency.
I have thought up to now that a deal with the EU on its terms was inevitable, but we have reached political catatonia. We can't even accept a year's do nothing extension, because then we might actually need it
The Tory party is totally paralysed by Brexit. This is hugely damaging, in that Brexit isn't the biggest issue really. Aging, health, climate change, defence - all of these are perhaps more important, and have had, at best, a small usherette's torch applied to their solution for the best part of ten years. Labour are no help here -they're less innovative anyway (odd vs 'conservatism' but undoubtedly true), and have been in limbo since Blair.
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
Whilst I want to forego the dubious pleasure of fucking Clegg, he has made himself a hostage to fortune. Facebook will want something for the £1m, and that may soon go against some views he held beforehand.
A silly move IMO. But so lucrative that even a good moral soul such as myself might side with the devil.
Yes the press will constantly ask him about corporate tax payments or lack of. Plus he does not need the money, his wife is a senior partner at a serious law firm in the city.
I think you may have the ladies calling you out on your last paragraph
I thought we were all for equality, no more I earn this money and here is your little share, it all goes in one pot for the family now, does it not?
You said he does not need the money as his wife is a senior partner at a serious law firm in the city
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
Whilst I want to forego the dubious pleasure of fucking Clegg, he has made himself a hostage to fortune. Facebook will want something for the £1m, and that may soon go against some views he held beforehand.
A silly move IMO. But so lucrative that even a good moral soul such as myself might side with the devil.
Yes the press will constantly ask him about corporate tax payments or lack of. Plus he does not need the money, his wife is a senior partner at a serious law firm in the city.
I think you may have the ladies calling you out on your last paragraph
I thought we were all for equality, no more I earn this money and here is your little share, it all goes in one pot for the family now, does it not?
You said he does not need the money as his wife is a senior partner at a serious law firm in the city
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
I'm all up for a second referendum.
Remain have been campaigning for a reversal for the last two years, leave have been (for better or worse) trying to get on with the job.
So Remain are slightly ahead in the polls? Pah. May was ahead in the polls when she called last year's GE and look how far that got her once the opposition campaign got started.
A second referendum would probably result in two fingers up at the establishment for daring to ask the same question twice.
The look on the remainers' faces when they lose a second time would be truly beautiful to behold. We beat 'em once, we can beat 'em again.
It may come to holding it but I have no idea of the end result. Indeed I do not know how I would vote at present
Two points: Not everybody votes strictly according to their own financial interest. Some people value things like fairness (on the left) or liberty (on the right) above money. Not everybody thought that the EU was making them richer. They were being ‘logical’ according to you.
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
Whilst I want to forego the dubious pleasure of fucking Clegg, he has made himself a hostage to fortune. Facebook will want something for the £1m, and that may soon go against some views he held beforehand.
A silly move IMO. But so lucrative that even a good moral soul such as myself might side with the devil.
LOL, you actually think Clegg has any principles , the man is a snake.
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
I'm all up for a second referendum.
Remain have been campaigning for a reversal for the last two years, leave have been (for better or worse) trying to get on with the job.
So Remain are slightly ahead in the polls? Pah. May was ahead in the polls when she called last year's GE and look how far that got her once the opposition campaign got started.
A second referendum would probably result in two fingers up at the establishment for daring to ask the same question twice.
The look on the remainers' faces when they lose a second time would be truly beautiful to behold. We beat 'em once, we can beat 'em again.
It may come to holding it but I have no idea of the end result. Indeed I do not know how I would vote at present
I'm not sure I know what I'd do at the ballot box either. I alternate between thinking "stuff em" and being genuinely alarmed at the possibility of a no deal Brexit (would there be a recession? would I lose my job? my home? Even if I was OK, could something like this happen to a close friend - and would I be OK with that?)
Then I remember it has been more than two years and Remain has *still* failed to make a positive case for the EU. It's just Project Fear on top of more Project Fear.
Brexit may be the great unknown, but with the EU we know exactly what we are getting. Gradually sucked into a federal superstate that holds democracy in contempt.
The coward in me would vote to remain, but that's no good reason to stay.
Firstly, it was not binding. It was advisory. Secondly, Leave cheated. Thirdly, the deal or no deal is worse than the current arrangement.
How bad does it have to get before people like you realise it is a mistake?
In the spirit of the charming, generous Continuity Remain campaign: fuck off, Traitor.
lol, lose the argument and you have to use four word expletives.
As a passing shot, I notice you say "Fuck Nick Clegg" on another comment but I remember seeing on these pages in 2010 you voted lib Dem! I think you lived in Holborn and St Pancras. What does that say about your judgement about him? What does it say about you? Indeed as a observer I also remember you saying sometime in the coalition government that you thought the UK should integrate more with the EU.
I voted Lib Dem in 2010 to tactically defeat Labour in my constituency of Camden (I failed).
So on that point you are quite right. But I am also right, as I am sure you will accept, that you are a fucking loathsome traitor.
Hopefully we can agree on these two points, and end an unedifying debate.
I don't think you can really describe someone as being a traitor if they care about the wellbeing of the economy and the consequent ramifications on public spending. A smaller economy means less spending on Defence or Foreign policy. I am interested in the UK projecting power and influence on the world stage not an insular country that retreats into a cul-de-sac. On European issues, I have never endorsed joining the Eurozone or contemplated Britain becoming more enmeshed than it is now. I am not a traitor and it is a term I think demeans debate.
I thought the organisers were being a bit reckless in letting the expectations for numbers at the march tomorrow run away a bit. But I've just been trying to find a bus to go on and they all seem to be booked up. There are a few seats going in Brighton thanks to another one being laid on - but all the places in other coaches in West Sussex, around a dozen, are gone. I've never known anything like it.
Fuck, it might be almost as big as the 400,000 who marched to save fox-hunting???
Oh.
I was on the fox hunting march, more or less by accident. I won't be going to London tomorrow.
So was I. I had two friends with me from university who came along to keep me company and for the lolz, neither of whom gave a crap about foxhunting either way.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
I thought the organisers were being a bit reckless in letting the expectations for numbers at the march tomorrow run away a bit. But I've just been trying to find a bus to go on and they all seem to be booked up. There are a few seats going in Brighton thanks to another one being laid on - but all the places in other coaches in West Sussex, around a dozen, are gone. I've never known anything like it.
Fuck, it might be almost as big as the 400,000 who marched to save fox-hunting???
Oh.
I was on the fox hunting march, more or less by accident. I won't be going to London tomorrow.
So was I. I had two friends with me from university who came along to keep me company and for the lolz, neither of whom gave a crap about foxhunting either way.
I almost certainly had a better - if more expensive - time the night aforehand. we stumbled out of the hotel and got caught up in a wave of very pleasant people.
The venomous hate of the anti-hunt protesters was quite something to behold. Oddly, this conflicts with Nick Palmer's anecdote ...
Amazing, eh, that they felt so passionately about defending the rights of defenceless wild animals? How gauche!
Yes, you have to admire Clegg's commitment to 'building a moral bridge between politics and tech' while taking the £1 million a year pay package his new post comes with and moving to sunny California thousands of miles from Brexit
£1m a year? Someone is paying Cleggy £1m a year?
If evidence were ever needed that Facebook is a monopolistic supplier abusing its dominant market position....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
I'm all up for a second referendum.
Remain have been campaigning for a reversal for the last two years, leave have been (for better or worse) trying to get on with the job.
So Remain are slightly ahead in the polls? Pah. May was ahead in the polls when she called last year's GE and look how far that got her once the opposition campaign got started.
A second referendum would probably result in two fingers up at the establishment for daring to ask the same question twice.
The look on the remainers' faces when they lose a second time would be truly beautiful to behold. We beat 'em once, we can beat 'em again.
It may come to holding it but I have no idea of the end result. Indeed I do not know how I would vote at present
The coward in me would vote to remain, but that's no good reason to stay.
I'm with you on that. I'd probably do it, if the choice gets offered again, despite many many comments I still lingered a long time in the polling booth in 2016 before making my mark, but it'd be for the fear. The dream of the EU was always a good one, to my mind, whether one wanted to be a part of that dream or not, but there's been a lot of glorifying the ugly, ruthless parts of it in all this, and while whatever the reasonableness of our dissatisfaction the choice of leaving, and the risks of that, have to be accepted by those like me, the celebration of even the bad parts of the EU, in its domineering arrogance (yes, we are not the only ones capable of it) I have found quite offputting.
I still don't think the EU is an out and out bad institution, not even with my underestimating how frustrating they would be for what I think it unnecessary risk for all sides, but alternating between crowing about how ruthless they are and hyperbolic rhetoric about how it is the only true civilization (and we see both) has pained a more realistic but more depressing picture of the thing.
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
I'm all up for a second referendum.
Remain have been campaigning for a reversal for the last two years, leave have been (for better or worse) trying to get on with the job.
So Remain are slightly ahead in the polls? Pah. May was ahead in the polls when she called last year's GE and look how far that got her once the opposition campaign got started.
A second referendum would probably result in two fingers up at the establishment for daring to ask the same question twice.
The look on the remainers' faces when they lose a second time would be truly beautiful to behold. We beat 'em once, we can beat 'em again.
It may come to holding it but I have no idea of the end result. Indeed I do not know how I would vote at present
I'm not sure I know what I'd do at the ballot box either. I alternate between thinking "stuff em" and being genuinely alarmed at the possibility of a no deal Brexit (would there be a recession? would I lose my job? my home? Even if I was OK, could something like this happen to a close friend - and would I be OK with that?)
Then I remember it has been more than two years and Remain has *still* failed to make a positive case for the EU. It's just Project Fear on top of more Project Fear.
Brexit may be the great unknown, but with the EU we know exactly what we are getting. Gradually sucked into a federal superstate that holds democracy in contempt.
The coward in me would vote to remain, but that's no good reason to stay.
And remain brings up a whole load of issues - I have decided that whatever happens happens
Two points: Not everybody votes strictly according to their own financial interest. Some people value things like fairness (on the left) or liberty (on the right) above money. Not everybody thought that the EU was making them richer. They were being ‘logical’ according to you.
Is it fair that the poorest in society will be hit hardest by an economy that does not deliver the goods? If the economy is smaller there is less to redistribute!
Yes, you have to admire Clegg's commitment to 'building a moral bridge between politics and tech' while taking the £1 million a year pay package his new post comes with and moving to sunny California thousands of miles from Brexit
£1m a year? Someone is paying Cleggy £1m a year?
If evidence were ever needed that Facebook is a monopolistic supplier abusing its dominant market position....
Just shows how underpaid MPs are.
Actually HMRC have made a deal with Facebook - if they take Clegg off our hands we'll not worry too much about all the tax they didn't pay
(Edit: for what it's worth I actually quite like Clegg. I wouldn't pay 1m for him mind!)
I thought the organisers were being a bit reckless in letting the expectations for numbers at the march tomorrow run away a bit. But I've just been trying to find a bus to go on and they all seem to be booked up. There are a few seats going in Brighton thanks to another one being laid on - but all the places in other coaches in West Sussex, around a dozen, are gone. I've never known anything like it.
Fuck, it might be almost as big as the 400,000 who marched to save fox-hunting???
Oh.
I was on the fox hunting march, more or less by accident. I won't be going to London tomorrow.
So was I. I had two friends with me from university who came along to keep me company and for the lolz, neither of whom gave a crap about foxhunting either way.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
Tbf that was his pals. He may take authentic joy in the terrifying and the shredding.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
I thought the organisers were being a bit reckless in letting the expectations for numbers at the march tomorrow run away a bit. But I've just been trying to find a bus to go on and they all seem to be booked up. There are a few seats going in Brighton thanks to another one being laid on - but all the places in other coaches in West Sussex, around a dozen, are gone. I've never known anything like it.
Fuck, it might be almost as big as the 400,000 who marched to save fox-hunting???
Oh.
I was on the fox hunting march, more or less by accident. I won't be going to London tomorrow.
So was I. I had two friends with me from university who came along to keep me company and for the lolz, neither of whom gave a crap about foxhunting either way.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
What do we know? I don't support foxhunting (I find it hard to accept that, for the sake of argument, if it is necessary to do it, and if it is even the most efficient way to do it, that there is a need to prance about in fancy dress during such a task for a lark), but I'm not about to judge someone's character because they went on a march a long time ago or didn't feel strongly about it. I'm not crying over losing of that part of the culture, but someone who might genuinely be so is not persona non grata.
I thought the organisers were being a bit reckless in letting the expectations for numbers at the march tomorrow run away a bit. But I've just been trying to find a bus to go on and they all seem to be booked up. There are a few seats going in Brighton thanks to another one being laid on - but all the places in other coaches in West Sussex, around a dozen, are gone. I've never known anything like it.
Fuck, it might be almost as big as the 400,000 who marched to save fox-hunting???
Oh.
I was on the fox hunting march, more or less by accident. I won't be going to London tomorrow.
So was I. I had two friends with me from university who came along to keep me company and for the lolz, neither of whom gave a crap about foxhunting either way.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
Tbf that was his pals. He may take authentic joy in the terrifying and the shredding.
Indeed, an important point of nuance. My apologies.
I knew about the scheme including the “cash back” bits but I can’t remember where from.
Remarkably that wasn’t even the most useful / interesting tweet from Patrick today - the one on how stripe uses 2 random numbers to authenticate both callers on a phone call is of serious practical use
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who engage in it.
Mind you, there are some insensitive Islamophobes in Lancs
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
I'm all up for a second referendum.
Remain have been campaigning for a reversal for the last two years, leave have been (for better or worse) trying to get on with the job.
So Remain are slightly ahead in the polls? Pah. May was ahead in the polls when she called last year's GE and look how far that got her once the opposition campaign got started.
A second referendum would probably result in two fingers up at the establishment for daring to ask the same question twice.
The look on the remainers' faces when they lose a second time would be truly beautiful to behold. We beat 'em once, we can beat 'em again.
My antennae tell me the same: that either Leave would win again, by an even bigger margin (most likely, and ouch), or millions of Leavers would boycott the referendum with disgust (and for good reason) rendering the result pointless, and very deeply damaging to our democracy
The EU has been around 50 years, English/British democracy has been evolving for 1500 years. I know which I value more.
The only way a 2nd referendum can happen, and make moral sense, is if a party campaigns for it in a new general election, and wins a mandate to call the vote. Otherwise: NO.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting has as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who engage in it.
I once canvassed an area for the Conservatives and a staunch Labour voter said he would change to the Tories if they did something about hunting. He said he particularly enjoyed "lamping". I made my excuses and went as did the candidate when they encountered this man.
I hear what you say about tradition but killing animals for sport is barbaric. Killing animals for meat is something I continually wrestle with in my mind as I do eat meat but it is something I elect to do only a few days a week.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
I didn’t mention Blair or privilege, you did that. I mentioned chasing a defenceless wild animal until it is utterly terrified, then setting about it with a pack of dogs, until its limbs are torn from its body. I couldn’t give a flying fuck whether the people who did it are rich, poor, black, white, town or country.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
Particularly those who have gardens or other private land that a hunt has entered without permission and trashed in pursuit of their unfortunate victim.
There's just no way we can agree to any of this. The Left won't abide Single Market rules on state support, the right will not wear this absurd attempt to turn us into a colony.
Some in the EU are intent on No Deal, and the EU politicians are stupidly allowing this faction to govern the process. So be it. Buckle up, Britain. We're out. Tungsten Brexit, with ballistic boosters (made in China).
We're not just leaving, we're being kicked out with glee, or, if you prefer the British version, we're smashing a bottle over our heads, but making sure everyone else is soaked in old rum, as we storm out the bar door. And we might just chuck a lighted match....
Weren't you advocating some tail-between-our-legs cowering surrender just a few weeks ago?
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
To be fair to my bipolar self, the EU has become evermore demanding and unreasonable in recent weeks, not less, so a change in attitude is understandable.
I was for a moment tempted by a 2nd referendum, but now I despair. The EU is not interested in compromise. They want to see us vanquished and cowering, and begging to be allowed back in. Fuck them, and the traitorous Brits that empower them, from Blair to Clegg to Heseltine.
In particular, fuck Clegg with his £1m a year job with Facebook. Jesus H Fucking Christ.
I'm all up for a second referendum.
Remain have been campaigning for a reversal for the last two years, leave have been (for better or worse) trying to get on with the job.
So Remain are slightly ahead in the polls? Pah. May was ahead in the polls when she called last year's GE and look how far that got her once the opposition campaign got started.
A second referendum would probably result in two fingers up at the establishment for daring to ask the same question twice.
The look on the remainers' faces when they lose a second time would be truly beautiful to behold. We beat 'em once, we can beat 'em again.
My antennae tell me the same: that either Leave would win again, by an even bigger margin (most likely, and ouch), or millions of Leavers would boycott the referendum with disgust (and for good reason) rendering the result pointless, and very deeply damaging to our democracy
The EU has been around 50 years, English/British democracy has been evolving for 1500 years. I know which I value more.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
That may be. So what? It doesn't make the culture of the minority invalid, does it? Or have you abandoned your most cherished principle of defending minority cultures?
I almost certainly had a better - if more expensive - time the night aforehand. we stumbled out of the hotel and got caught up in a wave of very pleasant people.
The venomous hate of the anti-hunt protesters was quite something to behold. Oddly, this conflicts with Nick Palmer's anecdote ...
Amazing, eh, that they felt so passionately about defending the rights of defenceless wild animals? How gauche!
I suspect that most mass events feel very different according to which side you're on. One's eye is drawn to the most virulent posters, the most abusive marchers, and one doesn't especially notice reasonable people just walking along indicating support. But the march, which featured lots of personal attacks on Tony Blair (who ironically was the Government MP least keen on the ban, apart from Kate Hoey and a couple of others) was very counter-productive if it was intended to influence the government and its MPs, since its effect was to polarise.
How to do a march that DOES change minds is an interesting question. As I've said before, the silent Tamil march did work for me - I'd thought of Tamils in Sri Lanka merely as one of two rival factions, and the Gandhiesque display of dignified silence was impressive and made me think that maybe they were the side that needed more sympathy.
The Saturday march is trying, I think, to answer the claim that the issue is settled and most people are shrugging and making the best of Brexit, by showing that there's still very substantial resistance. If only a few thousand turned up it would backfire, of course, but it doesn't look as though that'll happen.
Two points: Not everybody votes strictly according to their own financial interest. Some people value things like fairness (on the left) or liberty (on the right) above money. Not everybody thought that the EU was making them richer. They were being ‘logical’ according to you.
Is it fair that the poorest in society will be hit hardest by an economy that does not deliver the goods? If the economy is smaller there is less to redistribute!
I’m not saying I agree with the reasons that people have for voting the way the do, but I do try to understand what they are. If you assume those who disagree with you are stupid or evil - or traitors - then you will never be able to convince them to change their minds.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
I didn’t mention Blair or privilege, you did that. I mentioned chasing a defenceless wild animal until it is utterly terrified, then setting about it with a pack of dogs, until its limbs are torn from its body. I couldn’t give a flying fuck whether the people who did it are rich, poor, black, white, town or country.
No, and you couldn't care a flying fuck for the rights and culture of people for whom this is very, very important (and I mean really important). You just want to impose your view on them, much like colonialists on ignorant 'natives' .
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
I followed the Warwickshire Hunt with my father-in-law who was working class to his bones. There was cruelty involved in flushing out the foxes and chasing them until they could run no more before being torn to shreds by the dogs, but I am unapologetic in saying that it was utterly thrilling and deeply rooted in the countryside - even though it past most country people by. The sight of the hunt in full flight streaming across a frosty field was breathtaking. I’m afraid to say that I always saw foxes as pests - still do - that need to be controlled. Why not do it via one of the few things that still binds us to the land and to our past?
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
That may be. So what? It doesn't make the culture of the minority invalid, does it? Or have you abandoned your most cherished principle of defending minority cultures?
My most cherished principle? Give it a rest. Cruel sports are an anachronism. Getting your kicks off the pain of others is wrong. As such it’s wrong to follow the progress of Mays cabinet.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
I can say all my family oppose fox hunting and my eldest granddaughter will not eat any meat under any circumstances. It was another issue in the last manifesto that had no need to be in there
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
I didn’t mention Blair or privilege, you did that. I mentioned chasing a defenceless wild animal until it is utterly terrified, then setting about it with a pack of dogs, until its limbs are torn from its body. I couldn’t give a flying fuck whether the people who did it are rich, poor, black, white, town or country.
No, and you couldn't care a flying fuck for the rights and culture of people for whom this is very, very important (and I mean really important). You just want to impose your view on them, much like colonialists on ignorant 'natives' .
I live in a very rural part of Dorset and the number of people round here for whom fox hunting is 'very, very important' can be counted on the fingers of one hand - and most of them are effing weekenders from London.
I thought the organisers were being a bit reckless in letting the expectations for numbers at the march tomorrow run away a bit. But I've just been trying to find a bus to go on and they all seem to be booked up. There are a few seats going in Brighton thanks to another one being laid on - but all the places in other coaches in West Sussex, around a dozen, are gone. I've never known anything like it.
Fuck, it might be almost as big as the 400,000 who marched to save fox-hunting???
Oh.
I was on the fox hunting march, more or less by accident. I won't be going to London tomorrow.
So was I. I had two friends with me from university who came along to keep me company and for the lolz, neither of whom gave a crap about foxhunting either way.
I almost certainly had a better - if more expensive - time the night aforehand. we stumbled out of the hotel and got caught up in a wave of very pleasant people.
The venomous hate of the anti-hunt protesters was quite something to behold. Oddly, this conflicts with Nick Palmer's anecdote ...
Amazing, eh, that they felt so passionately about defending the rights of defenceless wild animals? How gauche!
Believe me, there's being passionate about defending the rights of defenceless wild animals and there's threatening people with death and worse.
Both sides have extremists. One side digs up the body of someone's grandmother ...
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
I followed the Warwickshire Hunt with my father-in-law who was working class to his bones. There was cruelty involved in flushing out the foxes and chasing them until they could run no more before being torn to shreds by the dogs, but I am unapologetic in saying that it was utterly thrilling and deeply rooted in the countryside - even though it past most country people by. The sight of the hunt in full flight streaming across a frosty field was breathtaking. I’m afraid to say that I always saw foxes as pests - still do - that need to be controlled. Why not do it via one of the few things that still binds us to the land and to our past?
A similar argument could be used to justify all sorts of unpleasantness. And I thought you were supposed to believe in progress.
I suspect that most mass events feel very different according to which side you're on. One's eye is drawn to the most virulent posters, the most abusive marchers, and one doesn't especially notice reasonable people just walking along indicating support. But the march, which featured lots of personal attacks on Tony Blair (who ironically was the Government MP least keen on the ban, apart from Kate Hoey and a couple of others) was very counter-productive if it was intended to influence the government and its MPs, since its effect was to polarise.
How to do a march that DOES change minds is an interesting question. As I've said before, the silent Tamil march did work for me - I'd thought of Tamils in Sri Lanka merely as one of two rival factions, and the Gandhiesque display of dignified silence was impressive and made me think that maybe they were the side that needed more sympathy.
The Saturday march is trying, I think, to answer the claim that the issue is settled and most people are shrugging and making the best of Brexit, by showing that there's still very substantial resistance. If only a few thousand turned up it would backfire, of course, but it doesn't look as though that'll happen.
I'm sure it will have a good turnout, and we are closer to a remain position than we have been to date, but I'm already sure I won't be able to stand the smug comments about what it represents, or the smug comments dismissing it. Much smaller of course, but I remember seeing some Green Party rep talking before a crowd with total confidence about what 'the people' wanted days or weeks after the 2015 GE, utterly convinced it seemed that that people were totally against the government. Similarly, every time there is a by-election in a safe seat, for anybody, the winning party still acts like winning a safe seat is a sign of the country as a whole sending a message to the government of the day. It's tedious and dull. This march I am sure will not be tedious or dull, but it will still be the case that a million man march for a point of view would easily be dismissed by opponents if they have the parliamentary votes and opinion polls to do so. The obvious example of Iraq has been made many times, but it is relevant - people's marches are not inherently important, but people will pretend they are tomorrow.
This one may well be at the right time to get some of what it wants, shifts may be coming, but I will be very surprised if the language and tone are not incredibly condescending, or that it is not the case that if there were a similarly sized crowd in favour of the alternative view, that it would not be dismissed by the people on this march. Now as it happens I don't think that right now you would get similar numbers for that opposing view, I actually support another referendum myself, but it could be unbearable.
I hope it is fun and engaging for those taking part.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
I followed the Warwickshire Hunt with my father-in-law who was working class to his bones. There was cruelty involved in flushing out the foxes and chasing them until they could run no more before being torn to shreds by the dogs, but I am unapologetic in saying that it was utterly thrilling and deeply rooted in the countryside - even though it past most country people by. The sight of the hunt in full flight streaming across a frosty field was breathtaking. I’m afraid to say that I always saw foxes as pests - still do - that need to be controlled. Why not do it via one of the few things that still binds us to the land and to our past?
It's not something I would personally do, but living in deepest Sussex I of course know lots of people who are really, really passionate about it, and I can see why. Not only does it bind them/us to the land and to our past - all over the world you see reproductions of English hunting scenes - but it's also a magnificent cultural and social event, wonderful to see, and as important to those who participate as religion is to many other people: I've known people, good people, for whom it's the centre of their lives. But what do townies, looking at this in abstract terms, care about that?
I hope he thinks the million quid a year is worth the hatred coming his way. Even the Guardian called his explanation for abandoning Remainerism "weak". If he's lost the Guardian, you can imagine the bilious contempt he will receive elsewhere.
It's a grievous moral error. It's much worse than Miliband taking that absurd refugee job, It's closer to Blair cosying up with Kazakh oligarchs. It totally stinks, and I think he will suffer for it. He will be hated, most of all, I suspect, by dedicated Remainers who will now think he has abandoned the cause at THE crucial time.
Tut. And LOL
I'm not sure many people will react that strongly. Many centre-left people have written off his cohort of LibDems as people who became hopelessly compromised by coalition with the Conservatives, to the point that their distinctive identity became shrouded in mist. Getting a job with Facebook is exactly the sort of thing that's consistent with that, and such people will just feel their prejudices confirmed.
That, incidentally, is why the LibDems are not flourishing in apparently propitious circumstances. Vince is very much identified with the same era - they need someone young, dynamic and different.
Nothing that has come out of Brussels in the Brexit process has caused me to have one moment of doubt about voting to Leave.
Nothing has come from a single Brexiteer that has caused me to have a moment of doubt that this is the greatest fuckup in living memory.
Those who promoted it will be reviled, and those that voted for it will be ashamed.
It will be impossible to find anyone who voted for it within the next 24 months, outside the safe anonymity of PB.
Isn't that what you said after the Referendum, over 24 months ago ?
I have no idea, it was a long time ago.
In all fairness, I have found it impossible to find any such person, but you will tell me that is because I am a metropolitan elitist Londoner and haven’t yet seen the true way and the light and moved to Mansfield.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
That may be. So what? It doesn't make the culture of the minority invalid, does it? Or have you abandoned your most cherished principle of defending minority cultures?
My most cherished principle? Give it a rest. Cruel sports are an anachronism. Getting your kicks off the pain of others is wrong. As such it’s wrong to follow the progress of Mays cabinet.
You think cruel sports are an anachronism. Fair enough. A minority disagree, passionately. You want to impose your view on them. It's morally indistinguishable from colonialism: you think you are superior and they are backward natives.
I almost certainly had a better - if more expensive - time the night aforehand. we stumbled out of the hotel and got caught up in a wave of very pleasant people.
The venomous hate of the anti-hunt protesters was quite something to behold. Oddly, this conflicts with Nick Palmer's anecdote ...
Amazing, eh, that they felt so passionately about defending the rights of defenceless wild animals? How gauche!
I suspect that most mass events feel very different according to which side you're on. One's eye is drawn to the most virulent posters, the most abusive marchers, and one doesn't especially notice reasonable people just walking along indicating support. But the march, which featured lots of personal attacks on Tony Blair (who ironically was the Government MP least keen on the ban, apart from Kate Hoey and a couple of others) was very counter-productive if it was intended to influence the government and its MPs, since its effect was to polarise.
How to do a march that DOES change minds is an interesting question. As I've said before, the silent Tamil march did work for me - I'd thought of Tamils in Sri Lanka merely as one of two rival factions, and the Gandhiesque display of dignified silence was impressive and made me think that maybe they were the side that needed more sympathy.
The Saturday march is trying, I think, to answer the claim that the issue is settled and most people are shrugging and making the best of Brexit, by showing that there's still very substantial resistance. If only a few thousand turned up it would backfire, of course, but it doesn't look as though that'll happen.
I hadn't planned to be on the march. Some of the stuff the protesters on *your* side where shouting was obscene. You may not have seen some of that, as you were on the other side of the fence and could not be everywhere. Likewise, I may not have seen bad behaviour by marchers outside my immediate vicinity.
But we were 'taken in' by a lovely family, and ended up having strawberries and champagne in ?Hyde Park? at the end of the march. I reckon we probably had more fun.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
I can say all my family oppose fox hunting and my eldest granddaughter will not eat any meat under any circumstances. It was another issue in the last manifesto that had no need to be in there
Quite correct - it was a complete misjudgement on the part of May (or those who advise her).
Richard N's assertion that "there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting" is laughable. These people from unprivileged households are passionate about supporting an elite hobby they themselves will never be able to afford to participate in? Dream on.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
I followed the Warwickshire Hunt with my father-in-law who was working class to his bones. There was cruelty involved in flushing out the foxes and chasing them until they could run no more before being torn to shreds by the dogs, but I am unapologetic in saying that it was utterly thrilling and deeply rooted in the countryside - even though it past most country people by. The sight of the hunt in full flight streaming across a frosty field was breathtaking. I’m afraid to say that I always saw foxes as pests - still do - that need to be controlled. Why not do it via one of the few things that still binds us to the land and to our past?
A similar argument could be used to justify all sorts of unpleasantness. And I thought you were supposed to believe in progress.
I believe in what I believe. Fox hunting is undoubtedly cruel, but having been around hunts I admit I am prepared to overlook that because I think other things override it. I admit it’s not a coherent or morally defensible position, but there you go. Following the hunt triggered something inside me that felt very important and rooted in the land and history.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
I can say all my family oppose fox hunting and my eldest granddaughter will not eat any meat under any circumstances. It was another issue in the last manifesto that had no need to be in there
Quite correct - it was a complete misjudgement on the part of May (or those who advise her).
Richard N's assertion that "there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting" is laughable. These people from unprivileged households are passionate about supporting an elite hobby they themselves will never be able to afford to participate in? Dream on.
I'm glad to see you demonstrate so clearly my point that this is about class warfare, not animal welfare. And you are wrong on the narrow point as well.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
That may be. So what? It doesn't make the culture of the minority invalid, does it? Or have you abandoned your most cherished principle of defending minority cultures?
My most cherished principle? Give it a rest. Cruel sports are an anachronism. Getting your kicks off the pain of others is wrong. As such it’s wrong to follow the progress of Mays cabinet.
You think cruel sports are an anachronism. Fair enough. A minority disagree, passionately. You want to impose your view on them. It's morally indistinguishable from colonialism: you think you are superior and they are backward natives.
I think child abuse is wrong. A minority disagree. Is it colonialism to outlaw it?
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
That may be. So what? It doesn't make the culture of the minority invalid, does it? Or have you abandoned your most cherished principle of defending minority cultures?
My most cherished principle? Give it a rest. Cruel sports are an anachronism. Getting your kicks off the pain of others is wrong. As such it’s wrong to follow the progress of Mays cabinet.
You think cruel sports are an anachronism. Fair enough. A minority disagree, passionately. You want to impose your view on them. It's morally indistinguishable from colonialism: you think you are superior and they are backward natives.
I think child abuse is wrong. A minority disagree. Is it colonialism to outlaw it?
I hope he thinks the million quid a year is worth the hatred coming his way. Even the Guardian called his explanation for abandoning Remainerism "weak". If he's lost the Guardian, you can imagine the bilious contempt he will receive elsewhere.
It's a grievous moral error. It's much worse than Miliband taking that absurd refugee job, It's closer to Blair cosying up with Kazakh oligarchs. It totally stinks, and I think he will suffer for it. He will be hated, most of all, I suspect, by dedicated Remainers who will now think he has abandoned the cause at THE crucial time.
Tut. And LOL
I'm not sure many people will react that strongly. Many centre-left people have written off his cohort of LibDems as people who became hopelessly compromised by coalition with the Conservatives, to the point that their distinctive identity became shrouded in mist. Getting a job with Facebook is exactly the sort of thing that's consistent with that, and such people will just feel their prejudices confirmed.
That, incidentally, is why the LibDems are not flourishing in apparently propitious circumstances. Vince is very much identified with the same era - they need someone young, dynamic and different.
Young - perhaps not Dynamic - absolutely Different - totally
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
That may be. So what? It doesn't make the culture of the minority invalid, does it? Or have you abandoned your most cherished principle of defending minority cultures?
My most cherished principle? Give it a rest. Cruel sports are an anachronism. Getting your kicks off the pain of others is wrong. As such it’s wrong to follow the progress of Mays cabinet.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
I can say all my family oppose fox hunting and my eldest granddaughter will not eat any meat under any circumstances. It was another issue in the last manifesto that had no need to be in there
Quite correct - it was a complete misjudgement on the part of May (or those who advise her).
Richard N's assertion that "there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting" is laughable. These people from unprivileged households are passionate about supporting an elite hobby they themselves will never be able to afford to participate in? Dream on.
I used to live in Monmouthshire. The local hunt was egalatarian enough to make a Corbynista weep at the false consciousness of the working class. Huntin' shootin' and fishin' isn't confined to the Hooray Henrys of this world. Personally, I don't care one way or another. My view on fox hunting (vermin though they are) mostly depended on whether the hunt was blocking Tregate Lane or not.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
There are many people, if not a majority, in rural culture who are against hunting.
I can say all my family oppose fox hunting and my eldest granddaughter will not eat any meat under any circumstances. It was another issue in the last manifesto that had no need to be in there
Quite correct - it was a complete misjudgement on the part of May (or those who advise her).
Richard N's assertion that "there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting" is laughable. These people from unprivileged households are passionate about supporting an elite hobby they themselves will never be able to afford to participate in? Dream on.
I'm glad to see you demonstrate so clearly my point that this is about class warfare, not animal welfare. And you are wrong on the narrow point as well.
Clegg will not be that visible in the UK. His work will focus on jurisdictions like the EU, India and the US, the jurisdictions that really matter to Facebook, so we will forget about him pretty quickly.
I hope he thinks the million quid a year is worth the hatred coming his way. Even the Guardian called his explanation for abandoning Remainerism "weak". If he's lost the Guardian, you can imagine the bilious contempt he will receive elsewhere.
It's a grievous moral error. It's much worse than Miliband taking that absurd refugee job, It's closer to Blair cosying up with Kazakh oligarchs. It totally stinks, and I think he will suffer for it. He will be hated, most of all, I suspect, by dedicated Remainers who will now think he has abandoned the cause at THE crucial time.
Tut. And LOL
I'm not sure many people will react that strongly. Many centre-left people have written off his cohort of LibDems as people who became hopelessly compromised by coalition with the Conservatives, to the point that their distinctive identity became shrouded in mist. Getting a job with Facebook is exactly the sort of thing that's consistent with that, and such people will just feel their prejudices confirmed.
That, incidentally, is why the LibDems are not flourishing in apparently propitious circumstances. Vince is very much identified with the same era - they need someone young, dynamic and different.
Young - perhaps not Dynamic - absolutely Different - totally
I await the call
The world is ready for you Mike, if only you will make yourself ready for it.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
I followed the Warwickshire Hunt with my father-in-law who was working class to his bones. There was cruelty involved in flushing out the foxes and chasing them until they could run no more before being torn to shreds by the dogs, but I am unapologetic in saying that it was utterly thrilling and deeply rooted in the countryside - even though it past most country people by. The sight of the hunt in full flight streaming across a frosty field was breathtaking. I’m afraid to say that I always saw foxes as pests - still do - that need to be controlled. Why not do it via one of the few things that still binds us to the land and to our past?
A similar argument could be used to justify all sorts of unpleasantness. And I thought you were supposed to believe in progress.
I believe in what I believe. Fox hunting is undoubtedly cruel, but having been around hunts I admit I am prepared to overlook that because I think other things override it. I admit it’s not a coherent or morally defensible position, but there you go. Following the hunt triggered something inside me that felt very important and rooted in the land and history.
Actually foxhunting was proven not to be cruel. The Burns Report said as such. Which takes away the last valid argument against it.
But of course it's all irrelevant as foxhunting is illegal.
Edit: or rather, no more or less cruel than any other pest control mechanism.
You went on a march, supporting the rights of people to terrify a defenceless wild animal, then tear it to shreds with a pack of dogs. You did this for the lolz, and ‘by accident’. So now we know.
The cynical attack of Blair - for purely internal party-political purposes - on British rural culture was and remains a total disgrace, which completely blows apart the left's claim to the higher moral ground on being sensitive to the culture of immigrant groups. On Blair's part it was just red meat (if you pardon the expression) to throw to his party, and on their part it was motivated by class hatred*, pure and simple: nothing to do with animal welfare. Even those lefties who run the RSPCA had fox-hunting as a negligible issue in terms of animal welfare.
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
I followed the Warwickshire Hunt with my father-in-law who was working class to his bones. There was cruelty involved in flushing out the foxes and chasing them until they could run no more before being torn to shreds by the dogs, but I am unapologetic in saying that it was utterly thrilling and deeply rooted in the countryside - even though it past most country people by. The sight of the hunt in full flight streaming across a frosty field was breathtaking. I’m afraid to say that I always saw foxes as pests - still do - that need to be controlled. Why not do it via one of the few things that still binds us to the land and to our past?
It's not something I would personally do, but living in deepest Sussex I of course know lots of people who are really, really passionate about it, and I can see why. Not only does it bind them/us to the land and to our past - all over the world you see reproductions of English hunting scenes - but it's also a magnificent cultural and social event, wonderful to see, and as important to those who participate as religion is to many other people: I've known people, good people, for whom it's the centre of their lives. But what do townies, looking at this in abstract terms, care about that?
From my perspective as a townie, hunt supporters are a never-ending source of schadenfreude. The well of anti-gay-marriage tears has long since dried up, but fox hunter tears just go on and on and on...
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.
Add # to your vote for the following:
1) Mental illness 2) World War I 3) World War II 4) Something by George Orwell 5) Suicide cult 6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times. 7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on. 8) Childbirth/divorce.
#8, complete with a link to the Spectator article, gets an airing with a recurring period of 4-6 days.
Comments
People who jump queues are just scum - so disrespectful of others who patiently play by the rules!
I sometimes get the impression that Brexiteers think the economy works like some map denoting armies or aircraft from a second world war film. Specifically, we can just switch from one set of rules, arrangements and trade relationships to something else and it will not cause disruption or pain. The point is the world is not like that and it will cause much pain to many people in the UK. I doubt Brexit will mean higher paying jobs for the jobs it destroys. I have suffered financial hardship in my life and I would not want anyone to go through economic hardship as I have suffered in the past. To me Brexit means disruption and economic pain for no positive reason.
I noticed some comments from Johnny Mercer MP on the current state of the Conservative Party. I agree in some respects as the party is nothing if it cannot offer a thriving economy, Brexit will destroy the progress the UK has made since the financial crisis.
It pi**es me off when management have different t&c wrt pat and options compared to the plebs. Especially when it encourages them to short-term thinking that hurts a company in the short term.
The question was rhetorical.
This time round I think you're broadly right.
The deficit has fallen far faster than expected, unemployment is at a record low and wages are rising.
You hugely exaggerate your case.
Besides which, on current evidence, the choice on Brexit is trading 30% growth by 2030 under “no deal”, but with full political autonomy, versus 37% growth by remaining in the EU but much less.
Many people are happy to make that trade. It’s not all about the money.
Secondly, Leave cheated.
Thirdly, the deal or no deal is worse than the current arrangement.
How bad does it have to get before people like you realise it is a mistake?
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/theres-only-one-way-forward-for-theresa-may-keep-britain-in-the-customs-union/
The plan is to completely alienate ("CU for ever", "part SM: GB for some years; NI for ever") dozens of tory ERG mps, terminally hack off the DUP (bloodredline="there will be NO new differences EVER in the treatment of GB&NI").
Mrs May is then supposed to run a minority Ministry for 3 more years... which will inevitably accept every Brussels diktat on the 'Trade Deal', all the while dependent on the ERG's goodwill, &without Supply&Confidence, and with Corbo The Great opposing everything else.
Genius.
Virtually every actor, “comedian”, TV presenter and musician in the public eye has now made a cringeworthy “people’s vote” video online.
Are they all friends on Facebook, or something? Or do they just not hang around with or speak to anyone else?
A silly move IMO. But so lucrative that even a good moral soul such as myself might side with the devil.
Blair. Clegg etc have the best interests of the country at heart I'm sure. They've just lost themselves - Blair is pehaps just tryjng to find himself. The most extreme example of this is Anna Soubry - I firmly believe that she lost her mind on Brexit day. (I'd not thought much of it beforehand, but I guess she's worse off)
The venomous hate of the anti-hunt protesters was quite something to behold. Oddly, this conflicts with Nick Palmer's anecdote ...
Plus he does not need the money, his wife is a senior partner at a serious law firm in the city.
The reason why the economy has not crashed yet is because we are still in the EU at the moment with free trade, interest rates have been slashed in the aftermath of the vote, the currency has depreciated and the Bank of England did significant QE. Still, the economy is vulnerable and the indications are trouble is on the horizon before we factor Brexit into the equation. Brexit is akin to putting sanctions on our own economy. It is madness.
Besides which, we have now had a vote in parliament (indeed a whole Act) and a general election where those parties that supported Brexit got more than 80% of the vote.
I voted remain partially because I thought it would be much harder than Leave were promising but mostly because I didn’t want to be on the same side as Farage and Co. If there is another vote I’m no sure I want to be on the same side as people with the contempt for democracy I’m seeing in posts like this.
This shows the spade work is done, the 2nd referendum is in the bag
I have thought up to now that a deal with the EU on its terms was inevitable, but we have reached political catatonia. We can't even accept a year's do nothing extension, because then we might actually need it
As a passing shot, I notice you say "Fuck Nick Clegg" on another comment but I remember seeing on these pages in 2010 you voted lib Dem! I think you lived in Holborn and St Pancras. What does that say about your judgement about him? What does it say about you? Indeed as a observer I also remember you saying sometime in the coalition government that you thought the UK should integrate more with the EU.
Remain have been campaigning for a reversal for the last two years, leave have been (for better or worse) trying to get on with the job.
So Remain are slightly ahead in the polls? Pah. May was ahead in the polls when she called last year's GE and look how far that got her once the opposition campaign got started.
A second referendum would probably result in two fingers up at the establishment for daring to ask the same question twice.
The look on the remainers' faces when they lose a second time would be truly beautiful to behold. We beat 'em once, we can beat 'em again.
Witness the EU being anti-GM food, but poor countries not being able to afford that luxury. If what you says holds true for all levels of affluence, the Europeans would be pro-GM, and their would be no organic food movement, or real beer, or indeed any artisanal products, because to buy them hits you in the pocket relative to the mass produced version.
The sentence is just ill thought out
The sentence is just ill thought out
Two points:
Not everybody votes strictly according to their own financial interest. Some people value things like fairness (on the left) or liberty (on the right) above money.
Not everybody thought that the EU was making them richer. They were being ‘logical’ according to you.
https://twitter.com/patio11/status/1053269887806656512
Then I remember it has been more than two years and Remain has *still* failed to make a positive case for the EU. It's just Project Fear on top of more Project Fear.
Brexit may be the great unknown, but with the EU we know exactly what we are getting. Gradually sucked into a federal superstate that holds democracy in contempt.
The coward in me would vote to remain, but that's no good reason to stay.
The EU has been at best poor in this. And we have too.
Those who promoted it will be reviled, and those that voted for it will be ashamed.
It just asks for those with the opposite view to launch an ill judged attack from their side
This arrogance and supriority needs to be dialled down from both sides
I still don't think the EU is an out and out bad institution, not even with my underestimating how frustrating they would be for what I think it unnecessary risk for all sides, but alternating between crowing about how ruthless they are and hyperbolic rhetoric about how it is the only true civilization (and we see both) has pained a more realistic but more depressing picture of the thing.
(Edit: for what it's worth I actually quite like Clegg. I wouldn't pay 1m for him mind!)
* And ignorance, of course: there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting.
Remarkably that wasn’t even the most useful / interesting tweet from Patrick today - the one on how stripe uses 2 random numbers to authenticate both callers on a phone call is of serious practical use
It will be impossible to find anyone who voted for it within the next 24 months, outside the safe anonymity of PB.
https://www.lep.co.uk/news/unstunned-halal-meat-will-no-longer-be-supplied-to-lancashire-schools-by-the-county-council-1-9403849
We can't convince some people that medicine is a better treatment than prayer why should we need to convince you?
I hear what you say about tradition but killing animals for sport is barbaric. Killing animals for meat is something I continually wrestle with in my mind as I do eat meat but it is something I elect to do only a few days a week.
How to do a march that DOES change minds is an interesting question. As I've said before, the silent Tamil march did work for me - I'd thought of Tamils in Sri Lanka merely as one of two rival factions, and the Gandhiesque display of dignified silence was impressive and made me think that maybe they were the side that needed more sympathy.
The Saturday march is trying, I think, to answer the claim that the issue is settled and most people are shrugging and making the best of Brexit, by showing that there's still very substantial resistance. If only a few thousand turned up it would backfire, of course, but it doesn't look as though that'll happen.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/darling-of-greens-katharina-schulze-threatens-to-oust-angela-merkel-party-in-state-poll-672060rjj
Both sides have extremists. One side digs up the body of someone's grandmother ...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/12/animalwelfare.topstories3
This one may well be at the right time to get some of what it wants, shifts may be coming, but I will be very surprised if the language and tone are not incredibly condescending, or that it is not the case that if there were a similarly sized crowd in favour of the alternative view, that it would not be dismissed by the people on this march. Now as it happens I don't think that right now you would get similar numbers for that opposing view, I actually support another referendum myself, but it could be unbearable.
I hope it is fun and engaging for those taking part.
Good night all.
That, incidentally, is why the LibDems are not flourishing in apparently propitious circumstances. Vince is very much identified with the same era - they need someone young, dynamic and different.
In all fairness, I have found it impossible to find any such person, but you will tell me that is because I am a metropolitan elitist Londoner and haven’t yet seen the true way and the light and moved to Mansfield.
But we were 'taken in' by a lovely family, and ended up having strawberries and champagne in ?Hyde Park? at the end of the march. I reckon we probably had more fun.
Richard N's assertion that "there are many people from unprivileged households who are passionate about fox-hunting" is laughable. These people from unprivileged households are passionate about supporting an elite hobby they themselves will never be able to afford to participate in? Dream on.
Dynamic - absolutely
Different - totally
I await the call
But of course it's all irrelevant as foxhunting is illegal.
Edit: or rather, no more or less cruel than any other pest control mechanism.