I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.
The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.
It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.
Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
Nick Clegg taking over as head of communications and public affairs at Facebook and moving to California.
A good move by Facebook.
Will be interesting to see how Clegg gets on with Zuckerberg.
I would have thought Facebook would be better having Clegg based in Europe, given Facebook's issues, his connections with int he EU and ability to speak about 27 different languages.
Bucking the trend of poor results for junior Coalition partners, we have the Greens in Hesse closing in on the CDU for the leadership. The combined CDU/Green coalition got 49% of the vote in 2013 and is still polling 46-48% so in theory could continue.
The SPD have dropped 10% equating to losing a third of their vote and are around 21% with the FDP and Linke both up slightly and AfD trebling their vote to 12%.
Will the current coalition continue - it looks to be about the only game in town currently?
Merkel really has done what one might call a Cameron....
The overall balance between right and left in Germany hasn't altered much since the election. It's the composition of those balances that have changed.
You could say the Social Democrats have been very selfless. They've helped form a government coalition when it was likely a lot of their support would transfer to the Greens within a year or two, and that is what has happened.
I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.
We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).
I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.
The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.
It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.
Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.
The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.
I think you wil
So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
It was a minority sport, an idee fixe, a cranky obsession, for people like ME. I think when I first joined PB in about 2005 I was virtually the only eurosceptic on the site, and I was roundly derided for my monomania. Fair enough. But I kept warning, over the years, that my obsession was grounded in reality, and that my scepticism would spread, dangerously, unless it was addressed.
Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?
He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.
It’s a huge waste but there we are.
Perhaps it is the butterfly effect. Imagine a parallel universe where no PB existed, perhaps Remain would have won by a margin of 4%. It would be an interesting place to visit and possibly much calmer, as all Leavers would have said, "oh well, that is that then, we had better respect the-will-o-the-people and all go and kill ourselves after we have hanged Farage from a lamppost
I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.
The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.
It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.
Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
Probably something to do with the median age in Italy being close to 50, 10 years more than the UK for example.
I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.
We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).
We're screwed.
A new leader could make that choice. If they go for the latter the shock of that may (just may) lead to the EU belatedly compromising.
FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.
The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.
I think you wil
So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?
He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.
It’s a huge waste but there we are.
Perhaps it is the butterfly effect. Imagine a parallel universe where no PB existed, perhaps Remain would have won by a margin of 4%. It would be an interesting place to visit and possibly much calmer, as all Leavers would have said, "oh well, that is that then, we had better respect the-will-o-the-people and all go and kill ourselves after we have hanged Farage from a lamppost
I think we would be about to elect a load of populist Eurosceptic MEPs to join the growing number of populist Eurosceptic MEPs on the Continent.
FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.
The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.
I think you wil
So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?
He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.
It’s a huge waste but there we are.
Thanks. I really WAS right. And I really wish I wasn't. I don't want some horrible chaotic Brexit any more than you, but this is the near inevitable outcome of 30 years of deceit and cant from europhile politicians.
If only we'd been given a vote on Maastricht, or the Constitution, or Lisbon (as requested, and as promised) then we'd have voted them down, but stayed in the EU, and Brexit wouldn't even exist as a word.
It is tragic. And it was so easily avoidable. The arrogant foolishness of the UK's europhile elite has led them to their worst nightmare. A magnificent irony for a future novelist to exploit.
Sorry to possibly burst your bubble of self-satisfaction, but can you point to the posts (maybe you can) where you disagreed with all the blusterers who told it was going to be the easiest deal in history
Amere Singh Dhaliwal, 35, of Holly Road, Huddersfield, guilty of 54 counts, including 21/22 counts of rape, sentenced to life with a minimum term of 18 years
Irfan Ahmed, 34, of Yews Hill Road, Huddersfield, guilty of one count of sexual assault and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to eight years
Zahid Hassan, 29, of Bland Street Huddersfield, guilty of six counts of rape, one count of attempted rape, one count of sexual assault, one count of trafficking for sexual exploitation, two counts of child abduction, two counts of supplying class A drugs sentenced to 18 years
Mohammed Kammer, 34, of West View, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape, sentenced to 16 years
Mohammed Rizwan Aslam, 31, of Huddersfield Road, Dewsbury, guilty of two counts of rape, sentenced to 15 years
Abdul Rehman, 31, of Darnely Drive, Sheffield, guilty of supplying a class C drug, one count of rape, one count of assault and one count of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to 16 years
Raj Singh Barsran, 34, of Caldercliffe Road, Huddersfield, guilty of rape and two counts of sexual assault, sentenced to 17 years
Nahman Mohammed, 32, of West View, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape and one count of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to 15 years
Mansoor Akhtar, 27, of Blackmoorfoot Road, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to eight years
Wiqas Mahmud, 38, of Banks Crescent, Huddersfield, guilty of three counts of rape, sentenced to 15 years
Nasarat Hussain, 30, of Upper Mount Street, Huddersfield, guilty of three counts of rape and one count of sexual assault, sentenced to 17 years
Sajid Hussain, of 33, of Grasmere Road, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape, sentenced to 17 years
Mohammed Irfraz, 30, of North Road, Huddersfield, guilty of child abduction and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to six years
Faisal Nadeem, 32, of Carr Green, Huddersfield, guilty of rape and supplying class A drugs, sentenced to 12 years
Mohammed Azeem, 33, of Wrose Road, Bradford, guilty of five counts of rape, sentenced to 18 years
Manzoor Hassan, 38, of Bland Street, Huddersfield, guilty of administering a noxious substance, inciting child prostitution and supplying a class A drug, sentenced to five years
Mohammed Akram, 33, of Springdale Street, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation and awaiting sentencing
Niaz Ahmed, 54, of Woodthorpe Terrace, Huddersfield, guilty of sexual assault and inciting a child to engage in sexual activity and awaiting sentencing
I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.
The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.
It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.
Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
Exactly the same thing that has held Japan back: demographics.
Both of them are suffering from an increasing number of retirees being supported by a diminishing number of people of working age population. Italy also has a terrible legal system, endemic corruption and undercapitalised banks.
I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
She is not handing over to anyone. If she loses a vnoc she resigns and a full leadership election takes place. As a member I would be furious with a coronation especially with a brexiteer
I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.
We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).
We're screwed.
New vote here we come...
Are we to be bullied by the EU into remaining in the EU?
FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.
The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.
I think you wil
So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
It was a minority sport, an idee fixe, a cranky obsession, for people like ME. I think when I first joined PB in about 2005 I was virtually the only eurosceptic on the site, and I was roundly derided for my monomania. Fair enough. But I kept warning, over the years, that my obsession was grounded in reality, and that my scepticism would spread, dangerously, unless it was addressed.
Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?
He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
Well the EU was still low on everyone's list of important issues, with the exception of some determined Tory MPs and a few newspaper owners. The British people were bothered by immigration. That's why they voted for Brexit - not because of the QMV rules in the Lisbon Treaty.
Morris Dancer's fears of a right-wing backlash will come if we leave the EU and immigration continues.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.
We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).
We're screwed.
New vote here we come...
Are we to be bullied by the EU into remaining in the EU?
Not bullied, but we may be exhausted into it. If no one in parliament can get behind a deal, and claim to despise no deal (I very much doubt all those who say it despite it as much as they say they do, or they'd be more willing to compromise and/or rebel), the public might just say eff it.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
So the lack of democratic consent for the various EU reforms was not an issue? Interesting.
I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.
The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.
It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.
Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
Exactly the same thing that has held Japan back: demographics.
Both of them are suffering from an increasing number of retirees being supported by a diminishing number of people of working age population. Italy also has a terrible legal system, endemic corruption and undercapitalised banks.
FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.
The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.
I think you wil
So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?
He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.
It’s a huge waste but there we are.
Perhaps it is the butterfly effect. Imagine a parallel universe where no PB existed, perhaps Remain would have won by a margin of 4%. It would be an interesting place to visit and possibly much calmer, as all Leavers would have said, "oh well, that is that then, we had better respect the-will-o-the-people and all go and kill ourselves after we have hanged Farage from a lamppost
I think we would be about to elect a load of populist Eurosceptic MEPs to join the growing number of populist Eurosceptic MEPs on the Continent.
Possibly. I really wouldn't get carried away by European Eurosceptisism. It might be the wet dream of British Euroseptics, but wishing for it isn't going to make it so, and I think our ridiculous predicament will probably clear any thinking the other side of the channel
FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.
The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.
I think you wil
So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
It was a minority sport, an idee fixe, a cranky obsession, for people like ME. I think when I first joined PB in about 2005 I was virtually the only eurosceptic on the site, and I was roundly derided for my monomania. Fair enough. But I kept warning, over the years, that my obsession was grounded in reality, and that my scepticism would spread, dangerously, unless it was addressed.
Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?
He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
Well the EU was still low on everyone's list of important issues, with the exception of some determined Tory MPs and a few newspaper owners. The British people were bothered by immigration. That's why they voted for Brexit - not because of the QMV rules in the Lisbon Treaty.
Morris Dancer's fears of a right-wing backlash will come if we leave the EU and immigration continues.
Morris is not the only one with that fear. Seeds have been sown.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Europhile elites I have no doubt played their part, but it is the leave position in power (I don't buy the idea that the way someone voted in 2016 means they could not possibly have negotiated something decent - since no one thought that when they thought May was a convert to a hard leave) and have to take on responsibility. Moreover, when people oppose you, as they are entitled to, the answer is you have to overcome it somehow, not just complain about being opposed.
Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?
I imagine Nick Clegg is well aware of the esteem in which he is held by some sections of the electorate and probably views his departure from the political scene as a positive for any "new" party.
I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.
The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.
It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.
Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
Exactly the same thing that has held Japan back: demographics.
Both of them are suffering from an increasing number of retirees being supported by a diminishing number of people of working age population. Italy also has a terrible legal system, endemic corruption and undercapitalised banks.
And the greatest of these is corruption.
I think - and it's a particular hobby horse of mine - that demographics is the bigger issue, simply because Italy's corruption was there even when the country was powering ahead.
I'd add another issue: the North/South divide was fudgeable when there was a lot of money to go around. It's not now. If (perhaps when) Italy leave the EU, there will be a godawful fight about how the South is subsidised.
FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.
The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.
I think you wil
So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
It was a minority sport, an idee fixe, a cranky obsession, for people like ME. I think when I first joined PB in about 2005 I was virtually the only eurosceptic on the site, and I was roundly derided for my monomania. Fair enough. But I kept warning, over the years, that my obsession was grounded in reality, and that my scepticism would spread, dangerously, unless it was addressed.
Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?
He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
Well the EU was still low on everyone's list of important issues, with the exception of some determined Tory MPs and a few newspaper owners. The British people were bothered by immigration. That's why they voted for Brexit - not because of the QMV rules in the Lisbon Treaty.
Morris Dancer's fears of a right-wing backlash will come if we leave the EU and immigration continues.
Morris is not the only one with that fear. Seeds have been sown.
But European Europscepticism is different to our own. For example, the FN in France is becoming less Eurosceptic - because it sees it as a vote loser - and more Islamaphobic.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.
The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.
I think you wil
So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?
He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.
It’s a huge waste but there we are.
If only we'd been given a vote on Maastricht, or the Constitution, or Lisbon (as requested, and as promised) then we'd have voted them down, but stayed in the EU, and Brexit wouldn't even exist as a word.
It is tragic. And it was so easily avoidable. The arrogant foolishness of the UK's europhile elite has led them to their worst nightmare. A magnificent irony for a future novelist to exploit.
Sorry to possibly burst your bubble of self-satisfaction, but can you point to the posts (maybe you can) where you disagreed with all the blusterers who told it was going to be the easiest deal in history
Many of the Brexiteers on here belong to the grim-dark school of thought. The Panglossian sunlit uplands lot are mostly on Twitter.
It is now likely if May confirms she has confirmed the backstop of permanent SM and CU membership for Northern Ireland that the UK will be on the same terms anyway in the transition period until the end of 2021 and that will be enough for the DUP to keep propping May up given Corbyn and McDonnell are the alternative.
However if no final trade deal agreed by the end of 2021 Boris may fancy his chances of toppling May and chucking the DUP and leading the Tories into a 2022 general election on a platform of CETA for GB
Boris will be long gone by then. He is a busted flush. Even ERG prefer DD. You do seem to find it difficult to face up to his great fall. He would also lose the conservatives their Scottish seats. Do you not realise how toxic he is
By 2022 DD will be past it and the Tories will want an election winner and there will likely be a Unionist majority at Holyrood anyway provided May has agreed the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period
DD is past it now. But my point is Boris is finished and I was not talking about Holyrood I was talking about UK GE
Holyrood is key for blocking indyref2 if a Unionist majority there.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
So the lack of democratic consent for the various EU reforms was not an issue? Interesting.
All EU law is ultimately accountable to the Council of Ministers (the elected heads of government) and increasingly the European Parliament. It therefore has legitimacy. If people did not like this they had the possibility to elect Eurosceptic parties to our Parliament. UKIP managed 2 MPs, both originally by defection and the Referendum Party and BNP none. All three of these parties stood on a Eurosceptic ticket, but were massively unsuccessful.
The system of representation we have was recently endorsed by referendum. Eurosceptics (who by coincidence get very jumpy when another referendum on EU is suggested) are on thin ice indeed when they suggest there was no democratic legitimacy to the implementation of EU law. A less polite person would say that on this subject, as many others they are talking complete bollocks
She is not handing over to anyone. If she loses a vnoc she resigns and a full leadership election takes place. As a member I would be furious with a coronation especially with a brexiteer
She wouldn't have to lose a VONC to resign - imagine if she got 170 votes but that was all. Yes she would win but her authority would be broken and she would have to resign.
As a thoughtful Conservative, how doe you think the Government has conducted itself and comported itself during the A50 negotiations? Do you think what the Lithuanian Preaident said was valid:
"We do not know what they want, they do not know themselves what they really want – that’s the problem."
So much time was wasted after July 2016 (including the utterly pointless GE) when a proper national debate needed to be had before we entered A50.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
So the lack of democratic consent for the various EU reforms was not an issue? Interesting.
All EU law is ultimately accountable to the Council of Ministers (the elected heads of government) and increasingly the European Parliament. It therefore has legitimacy. If people did not like this they had the possibility to elect Eurosceptic parties to our Parliament. UKIP managed 2 MPs, both originally by defection and the Referendum Party and BNP none. All three of these parties stood on a Eurosceptic ticket, but were massively unsuccessful.
The system of representation we have was recently endorsed by referendum. Eurosceptics (who by coincidence get very jumpy when another referendum on EU is suggested) are on thin ice indeed when they suggest there was no democratic legitimacy to the implementation of EU law. A less polite person would say that on this subject, as many others they are talking complete bollocks
So, we did as you suggested. We elected a Eurosceptic party with a majority.
I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.
We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).
We're screwed.
We only have to concede the NI backstop for now which probably would get through Parliament, Starmer said yesterday Labour back it and most NI voters want to stay in the single market and customs union permanently.
Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.
Add # to your vote for the following:
1) Mental illness 2) World War I 3) World War II 4) Something by George Orwell 5) Suicide cult 6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times. 7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on. 8) Childbirth/divorce.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
So the lack of democratic consent for the various EU reforms was not an issue? Interesting.
All EU law is ultimately accountable to the Council of Ministers (the elected heads of government) and increasingly the European Parliament. It therefore has legitimacy. If people did not like this they had the possibility to elect Eurosceptic parties to our Parliament. UKIP managed 2 MPs, both originally by defection and the Referendum Party and BNP none. All three of these parties stood on a Eurosceptic ticket, but were massively unsuccessful.
The system of representation we have was recently endorsed by referendum. Eurosceptics (who by coincidence get very jumpy when another referendum on EU is suggested) are on thin ice indeed when they suggest there was no democratic legitimacy to the implementation of EU law. A less polite person would say that on this subject, as many others they are talking complete bollocks
As others have stated, the EU wasnt high on people’s list of priorities. So when they were voting at elections, other matters weighed more heavily. This gave the government considerable latitude to get away with EU reform, morphing from an economic area to one that focuses far too much on political integration.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
It is now likely if May confirms she has confirmed the backstop of permanent SM and CU membership for Northern Ireland that the UK will be on the same terms anyway in the transition period until the end of 2021 and that will be enough for the DUP to keep propping May up given Corbyn and McDonnell are the alternative.
However if no final trade deal agreed by the end of 2021 Boris may fancy his chances of toppling May and chucking the DUP and leading the Tories into a 2022 general election on a platform of CETA for GB
Boris will be long gone by then. He is a busted flush. Even ERG prefer DD. You do seem to find it difficult to face up to his great fall. He would also lose the conservatives their Scottish seats. Do you not realise how toxic he is
By 2022 DD will be past it and the Tories will want an election winner and there will likely be a Unionist majority at Holyrood anyway provided May has agreed the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period
DD is past it now. But my point is Boris is finished and I was not talking about Holyrood I was talking about UK GE
Holyrood is key for blocking indyref2 if a Unionist majority there.
FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.
The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.
So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?
He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.
It’s a huge waste but there we are.
If only we'd been given a vote on Maastricht, or the Constitution, or Lisbon (as requested, and as promised) then we'd have voted them down, but stayed in the EU, and Brexit wouldn't even exist as a word.
It is tragic. And it was so easily avoidable. The arrogant foolishness of the UK's europhile elite has led them to their worst nightmare. A magnificent irony for a future novelist to exploit.
Sorry to possibly burst your bubble of self-satisfaction, but can you point to the posts (maybe you can) where you disagreed with all the blusterers who told it was going to be the easiest deal in history
Many of the Brexiteers on here belong to the grim-dark school of thought. The Panglossian sunlit uplands lot are mostly on Twitter.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
Fuck me. Probably one of the worst posts I've ever seen here, and there's been some stiff competition.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
We only have to concede the NI backstop for now which probably would get through Parliament, Starmer said yesterday Labour back it and most NI voters want to stay in the single market and customs union permanently.
Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election
So now the DUP are going to be thrown under the bus - so much for principled Unionism. It's all about saving your own skins.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
Gentlepersons, gather round, Remainer going full gammon here. Stand back, let the nice man huff into his paper bag before he fulminates again.
I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.
We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).
We're screwed.
New vote here we come...
Are we to be bullied by the EU into remaining in the EU?
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
You seem a little manic, even unbalanced. Have you considered visiting an NHS website for advice on cognitive issues?
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
Fuck me. Probably one of the worst posts I've ever seen here, and there's been some stiff competition.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.
Add # to your vote for the following:
1) Mental illness 2) World War I 3) World War II 4) Something by George Orwell 5) Suicide cult 6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times. 7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on. 8) Childbirth/divorce.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
You seem a little manic, even unbalanced. Have you considered visiting an NHS website for advice on cognitive issues?
Apologies I was not suggesting you have any such issues, it was a poorly thought post
Cameron set himself the aims of anchoring Scotland In the union, anchoring the UK in the EU and ending Tory wars over Europe.
And he failed miserably on all three. He left the country an international laughing stock with its alliances in tatters and the union under more strain than at anytime in the past 300 years. And Tory MPs openly refer to their government as a shitshow and confess that they would not vote for it!
If that is success I hate to think what failure would look like!
Voters decided not to follow his advice. That doesn't make him a bad PM, it means voters made a mistake. More fool them: we are seeing the consequences.
A leader who cannot lead is a shit leader.
This is axiomatic.
A PM who puts party before country is a charlatan.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
Perhaps you can work on a way to express your frustrations without resorting to making a joke of mental illness.
Europhilia may be a concept I find hard to understand. But I wouldn't compare it to mental illness.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
Gentlepersons, gather round, Remainer going full gammon here. Stand back, let the nice man huff into his paper bag before he fulminates again.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
You seem a little manic, even unbalanced. Have you considered visiting an NHS website for advice on cognitive issues?
Apologies I was not suggesting you have any such issues, it was a poorly thought post
Apology accepted. Brexit can send a lot of people a bit bonkers (me included). You're not alone.
She is not handing over to anyone. If she loses a vnoc she resigns and a full leadership election takes place. As a member I would be furious with a coronation especially with a brexiteer
She wouldn't have to lose a VONC to resign - imagine if she got 170 votes but that was all. Yes she would win but her authority would be broken and she would have to resign.
As a thoughtful Conservative, how doe you think the Government has conducted itself and comported itself during the A50 negotiations? Do you think what the Lithuanian Preaident said was valid:
"We do not know what they want, they do not know themselves what they really want – that’s the problem."
So much time was wasted after July 2016 (including the utterly pointless GE) when a proper national debate needed to be had before we entered A50.
An honest answer is that I think she is trying to bring about a Brexit that does not crash our manufacturing or our union. She is awkward and very poor at communicating but she has an unswerving devotion to public service, is honest and stubborn.
I cannot imagine anyone else doing much better and I do think the public realise that she has inherited a poisoned chalice and she is more respected by them than many on here think.
I believe she is working on a deal that will not be acceptable to the ERG, but takes a much wider view than their ultra stance, and she is likely to get an agreement by the end of the year, bring it back to the HOC and tell the House here is the deal. You make your choice now
Of course if she loses a vnoc then anything could happen
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
You seem a little manic, even unbalanced. Have you considered visiting an NHS website for advice on cognitive issues?
I feel a rollout of "urine-soaked" can't be far away, O Great Wordsmith.
We only have to concede the NI backstop for now which probably would get through Parliament, Starmer said yesterday Labour back it and most NI voters want to stay in the single market and customs union permanently.
Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election
So now the DUP are going to be thrown under the bus - so much for principled Unionism. It's all about saving your own skins.
Dumping the DUP under the bus before the next general election is ultimately the only way to save the Union, Brexit and the Tories.
The UUP are the Tories sister party in NI anyway, not the DUP
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
Gentlepersons, gather round, Remainer going full gammon here. Stand back, let the nice man huff into his paper bag before he fulminates again.
"Full quinoa" surely for a Remainer ?
Quinoa is the choice of the working class I'll have you know.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.
Add # to your vote for the following:
1) Mental illness 2) World War I 3) World War II 4) Something by George Orwell 5) Suicide cult 6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times. 7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on. 8) Childbirth/divorce.
Sunday's thread will be using 2, 3, and 6.
It may also feature AV.
Do you think the EU are going to make May sign the treaty in a certain palace in Paris with particularly picturesque gardens xD ?
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.
Add # to your vote for the following:
1) Mental illness 2) World War I 3) World War II 4) Something by George Orwell 5) Suicide cult 6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times. 7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on. 8) Childbirth/divorce.
Sunday's thread will be using 2, 3, and 6.
It may also feature AV.
Do you think the EU are going to make May sign the treaty in a certain palace in Paris with particularly picturesque gardens xD ?
Right location, but they are going to use a railway carriage.
We only have to concede the NI backstop for now which probably would get through Parliament, Starmer said yesterday Labour back it and most NI voters want to stay in the single market and customs union permanently.
Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election
So now the DUP are going to be thrown under the bus - so much for principled Unionism. It's all about saving your own skins.
Dumping the DUP under the bus before the next general election is ultimately the only way to save the Union, Brexit and the Tories.
The UUP are the Tories sister party in NI anyway, not the DUP
We only have to concede the NI backstop for now which probably would get through Parliament, Starmer said yesterday Labour back it and most NI voters want to stay in the single market and customs union permanently.
Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election
So now the DUP are going to be thrown under the bus - so much for principled Unionism. It's all about saving your own skins.
Dumping the DUP under the bus before the next general election is ultimately the only way to save the Union, Brexit and the Tories.
The UUP are the Tories sister party in NI anyway, not the DUP
There is a reason I exited the next Con Leader market.
I'm covered on DD, but still hoping for the big payday on Hunt.
Personally I enjoy the stress free life so a couple of weeks back I went quite big on May to last out the year at heavy odds on. So hoping the latest ERG musings are more piss and wind.
I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.
The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.
It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.
Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
Exactly the same thing that has held Japan back: demographics.
Both of them are suffering from an increasing number of retirees being supported by a diminishing number of people of working age population. Italy also has a terrible legal system, endemic corruption and undercapitalised banks.
And the greatest of these is corruption.
I think - and it's a particular hobby horse of mine - that demographics is the bigger issue, simply because Italy's corruption was there even when the country was powering ahead.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.
Add # to your vote for the following:
1) Mental illness 2) World War I 3) World War II 4) Something by George Orwell 5) Suicide cult 6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times. 7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on. 8) Childbirth/divorce.
Suez Crisis?
Though while politically inept, at least it was properly planned and executed, so the Brexit anology fails there.
Dumping the DUP under the bus before the next general election is ultimately the only way to save the Union, Brexit and the Tories.
The UUP are the Tories sister party in NI anyway, not the DUP
I'm sure Arlene Foster and Nigel Dodds will take it all in good heart. By the way, the Union, Brexit and the Tories - in that order?
I might put the Tories above Brexit but the Union first.
Arlene and Nigel should not worry, although we will have to agree the NI backstop they will still effectively run the UK during the transition period and until the end of 2021 and control the Maybot but that will have to end by GE 2022 under a new Tory leader if we are to move towards a GB FTA
An honest answer is that I think she is trying to bring about a Brexit that does not crash our manufacturing or our union. She is awkward and very poor at communicating but she has an unswerving devotion to public service, is honest and stubborn.
I cannot imagine anyone else doing much better and I do think the public realise that she has inherited a poisoned chalice and she is more respected by them than many on here think.
I believe she is working on a deal that will not be acceptable to the ERG, but takes a much wider view than their ultra stance, and she is likely to get an agreement by the end of the year, bring it back to the HOC and tell the House here is the deal. You make your choice now
Of course if she loses a vnoc then anything could happen
Thank you for the honest answer.
I do agree she has played a bad hand to the best of her abilities and no one questions her honesty and dedication. I'm not sure she has been well advised or has trusted her own instincts enough at times.
The trouble is we are all impaled on the spike of Unionism whether we agree with it or not.
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.
Add # to your vote for the following:
1) Mental illness 2) World War I 3) World War II 4) Something by George Orwell 5) Suicide cult 6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times. 7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on. 8) Childbirth/divorce.
Sunday's thread will be using 2, 3, and 6.
It may also feature AV.
Do you think the EU are going to make May sign the treaty in a certain palace in Paris with particularly picturesque gardens xD ?
Yes, you have to admire Clegg's commitment to 'building a moral bridge between politics and tech' while taking the £1 million a year pay package his new post comes with and moving to sunny California thousands of miles from Brexit
Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.
Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?
Not very woke of you.
Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.
Add # to your vote for the following:
1) Mental illness 2) World War I 3) World War II 4) Something by George Orwell 5) Suicide cult 6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times. 7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on. 8) Childbirth/divorce.
Sunday's thread will be using 2, 3, and 6.
It may also feature AV.
Do you think the EU are going to make May sign the treaty in a certain palace in Paris with particularly picturesque gardens xD ?
It would be amusing.
Though 20 years later the country forced to sign the earlier Treaty at that Palace was led by a Fascist dictator who ended up invading most of Europe in revenge
There is a reason I exited the next Con Leader market.
I'm covered on DD, but still hoping for the big payday on Hunt.
Hunt's last name lends itself to easily to political epithets (I can just see the banners now). However, 'tis but a matter of a simple deed poll. Jeremy Flanker has a certain ring to it.
Comments
It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.
Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
On the subject of German polls, the next Landtag contest is Hesse on Sunday week and two new polls are out:
http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/landtage/hessen.htm
Bucking the trend of poor results for junior Coalition partners, we have the Greens in Hesse closing in on the CDU for the leadership. The combined CDU/Green coalition got 49% of the vote in 2013 and is still polling 46-48% so in theory could continue.
The SPD have dropped 10% equating to losing a third of their vote and are around 21% with the FDP and Linke both up slightly and AfD trebling their vote to 12%.
Will the current coalition continue - it looks to be about the only game in town currently?
Amere Singh Dhaliwal, 35, of Holly Road, Huddersfield, guilty of 54 counts, including 21/22 counts of rape, sentenced to life with a minimum term of 18 years
Irfan Ahmed, 34, of Yews Hill Road, Huddersfield, guilty of one count of sexual assault and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to eight years
Zahid Hassan, 29, of Bland Street Huddersfield, guilty of six counts of rape, one count of attempted rape, one count of sexual assault, one count of trafficking for sexual exploitation, two counts of child abduction, two counts of supplying class A drugs sentenced to 18 years
Mohammed Kammer, 34, of West View, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape, sentenced to 16 years
Mohammed Rizwan Aslam, 31, of Huddersfield Road, Dewsbury, guilty of two counts of rape, sentenced to 15 years
Abdul Rehman, 31, of Darnely Drive, Sheffield, guilty of supplying a class C drug, one count of rape, one count of assault and one count of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to 16 years
Raj Singh Barsran, 34, of Caldercliffe Road, Huddersfield, guilty of rape and two counts of sexual assault, sentenced to 17 years
Nahman Mohammed, 32, of West View, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape and one count of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to 15 years
Mansoor Akhtar, 27, of Blackmoorfoot Road, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to eight years
Wiqas Mahmud, 38, of Banks Crescent, Huddersfield, guilty of three counts of rape, sentenced to 15 years
Nasarat Hussain, 30, of Upper Mount Street, Huddersfield, guilty of three counts of rape and one count of sexual assault, sentenced to 17 years
Sajid Hussain, of 33, of Grasmere Road, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape, sentenced to 17 years
Mohammed Irfraz, 30, of North Road, Huddersfield, guilty of child abduction and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to six years
Faisal Nadeem, 32, of Carr Green, Huddersfield, guilty of rape and supplying class A drugs, sentenced to 12 years
Mohammed Azeem, 33, of Wrose Road, Bradford, guilty of five counts of rape, sentenced to 18 years
Manzoor Hassan, 38, of Bland Street, Huddersfield, guilty of administering a noxious substance, inciting child prostitution and supplying a class A drug, sentenced to five years
Mohammed Akram, 33, of Springdale Street, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation and awaiting sentencing
Niaz Ahmed, 54, of Woodthorpe Terrace, Huddersfield, guilty of sexual assault and inciting a child to engage in sexual activity and awaiting sentencing
Both of them are suffering from an increasing number of retirees being supported by a diminishing number of people of working age population. Italy also has a terrible legal system, endemic corruption and undercapitalised banks.
But the text here - http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=961 - is quite long.
ALSO, is the EU still the only organisation in the world building its websites on Coldfusion??? That alone would be reason enough to Leave.
Morris Dancer's fears of a right-wing backlash will come if we leave the EU and immigration continues.
I'd add another issue: the North/South divide was fudgeable when there was a lot of money to go around. It's not now. If (perhaps when) Italy leave the EU, there will be a godawful fight about how the South is subsidised.
Not very woke of you.
Boris is only in his way 50s, Davis over 70
The system of representation we have was recently endorsed by referendum. Eurosceptics (who by coincidence get very jumpy when another referendum on EU is suggested) are on thin ice indeed when they suggest there was no democratic legitimacy to the implementation of EU law. A less polite person would say that on this subject, as many others they are talking complete bollocks
As a thoughtful Conservative, how doe you think the Government has conducted itself and comported itself during the A50 negotiations? Do you think what the Lithuanian Preaident said was valid:
"We do not know what they want, they do not know themselves what they really want – that’s the problem."
So much time was wasted after July 2016 (including the utterly pointless GE) when a proper national debate needed to be had before we entered A50.
"When
MexicoBritain sends its people, they're not sending their best."Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election
https://order-order.com/2018/10/19/peoples-vote-delete-disturbing-must-watch-video-backlash/
Add # to your vote for the following:
1) Mental illness
2) World War I
3) World War II
4) Something by George Orwell
5) Suicide cult
6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times.
7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on.
8) Childbirth/divorce.
Still, my total stake was less than bus fare, and I didn't expect it to come off.
Mr. Pulpstar, Roman times are surely considered part of antiquity?
https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy
It has worked for them before
It may also feature AV.
This is axiomatic.
A PM who puts party before country is a charlatan.
Europhilia may be a concept I find hard to understand. But I wouldn't compare it to mental illness.
"Tomowwow bewongs to who Daddy?"
I cannot imagine anyone else doing much better and I do think the public realise that she has inherited a poisoned chalice and she is more respected by them than many on here think.
I believe she is working on a deal that will not be acceptable to the ERG, but takes a much wider view than their ultra stance, and she is likely to get an agreement by the end of the year, bring it back to the HOC and tell the House here is the deal. You make your choice now
Of course if she loses a vnoc then anything could happen
Boris is 54 and over 15 years younger than Davis
The UUP are the Tories sister party in NI anyway, not the DUP
The Waitrose in Sheffield ran out last month.
Though while politically inept, at least it was properly planned and executed, so the Brexit anology fails there.
Arlene and Nigel should not worry, although we will have to agree the NI backstop they will still effectively run the UK during the transition period and until the end of 2021 and control the Maybot but that will have to end by GE 2022 under a new Tory leader if we are to move towards a GB FTA
I do agree she has played a bad hand to the best of her abilities and no one questions her honesty and dedication. I'm not sure she has been well advised or has trusted her own instincts enough at times.
The trouble is we are all impaled on the spike of Unionism whether we agree with it or not.
https://twitter.com/fp_nerd/status/1053225742094479360?s=21