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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PB / Polling Matters podcast: Will May reach and deal and

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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    edited October 2018
    currystar said:

    I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.

    The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.

    It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.

    Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    Extraordinary poll from Germany:


    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects

    Germany, Forschungsgruppe Wahlen poll:

    CDU/CSU-EPP: 27% (-1)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 20% (+3)
    AfD-EFDD: 16%
    SPD-S&D: 14% (-3)
    LINKE-LEFT: 10%
    FDP-ALDE: 8%

    Field work: 16/10/18 – 18/10/18
    Sample size: 1,117"

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects

    How long before Greens top the poll
    The Greens must already be close to first place in the former West Germany because they're much weaker in the east.
  • Nick Clegg taking over as head of communications and public affairs at Facebook and moving to California.

    A good move by Facebook.

    Will be interesting to see how Clegg gets on with Zuckerberg.

    I would have thought Facebook would be better having Clegg based in Europe, given Facebook's issues, his connections with int he EU and ability to speak about 27 different languages.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    Afternoon all :)

    On the subject of German polls, the next Landtag contest is Hesse on Sunday week and two new polls are out:

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/landtage/hessen.htm

    Bucking the trend of poor results for junior Coalition partners, we have the Greens in Hesse closing in on the CDU for the leadership. The combined CDU/Green coalition got 49% of the vote in 2013 and is still polling 46-48% so in theory could continue.

    The SPD have dropped 10% equating to losing a third of their vote and are around 21% with the FDP and Linke both up slightly and AfD trebling their vote to 12%.

    Will the current coalition continue - it looks to be about the only game in town currently?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Extraordinary poll from Germany:


    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects

    Germany, Forschungsgruppe Wahlen poll:

    CDU/CSU-EPP: 27% (-1)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 20% (+3)
    AfD-EFDD: 16%
    SPD-S&D: 14% (-3)
    LINKE-LEFT: 10%
    FDP-ALDE: 8%

    Field work: 16/10/18 – 18/10/18
    Sample size: 1,117"

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects

    Merkel really has done what one might call a Cameron....
    The overall balance between right and left in Germany hasn't altered much since the election. It's the composition of those balances that have changed.
    You could say the Social Democrats have been very selfless. They've helped form a government coalition when it was likely a lot of their support would transfer to the Greens within a year or two, and that is what has happened.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    SeanT said:

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
    I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.

    We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).

    We're screwed.
    New vote here we come...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    rcs1000 said:

    currystar said:

    I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.

    The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.

    It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.

    Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
    What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
  • SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Floater said:

    FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

    The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

    I think you wil

    So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
    er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
    I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
    True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
    It was a minority sport, an idee fixe, a cranky obsession, for people like ME. I think when I first joined PB in about 2005 I was virtually the only eurosceptic on the site, and I was roundly derided for my monomania. Fair enough. But I kept warning, over the years, that my obsession was grounded in reality, and that my scepticism would spread, dangerously, unless it was addressed.

    Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?

    He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
    Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.

    It’s a huge waste but there we are.
    Perhaps it is the butterfly effect. Imagine a parallel universe where no PB existed, perhaps Remain would have won by a margin of 4%. It would be an interesting place to visit and possibly much calmer, as all Leavers would have said, "oh well, that is that then, we had better respect the-will-o-the-people and all go and kill ourselves after we have hanged Farage from a lamppost
  • Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    And yet others are tweeting that a deal has been done (which sceptics won't like) and TMay reckons she can get it through parliament with Labour help.

    Who the F knows.
    I suppose both might be true: DD to be the front man to sell the deal which is largely agreed. But as you say, who knows?
    Maybe they'll make JRM the man to sell the deal.
    I believe he made Dimbleby look a pratt yesterday in Question Time and had everyone laughing in the aisles
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    currystar said:

    I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.

    The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.

    It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.

    Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
    What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
    Probably something to do with the median age in Italy being close to 50, 10 years more than the UK for example.
  • SeanT said:

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
    I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.

    We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).

    We're screwed.
    A new leader could make that choice. If they go for the latter the shock of that may (just may) lead to the EU belatedly compromising.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Floater said:

    FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

    The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

    I think you wil

    So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
    er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
    I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
    True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it


    Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?

    He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
    Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.

    It’s a huge waste but there we are.
    Perhaps it is the butterfly effect. Imagine a parallel universe where no PB existed, perhaps Remain would have won by a margin of 4%. It would be an interesting place to visit and possibly much calmer, as all Leavers would have said, "oh well, that is that then, we had better respect the-will-o-the-people and all go and kill ourselves after we have hanged Farage from a lamppost
    I think we would be about to elect a load of populist Eurosceptic MEPs to join the growing number of populist Eurosceptic MEPs on the Continent.
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Floater said:

    FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

    The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

    I think you wil

    So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
    er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
    I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
    True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it

    Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?

    He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
    Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.

    It’s a huge waste but there we are.
    Thanks. I really WAS right. And I really wish I wasn't. I don't want some horrible chaotic Brexit any more than you, but this is the near inevitable outcome of 30 years of deceit and cant from europhile politicians.

    If only we'd been given a vote on Maastricht, or the Constitution, or Lisbon (as requested, and as promised) then we'd have voted them down, but stayed in the EU, and Brexit wouldn't even exist as a word.

    It is tragic. And it was so easily avoidable. The arrogant foolishness of the UK's europhile elite has led them to their worst nightmare. A magnificent irony for a future novelist to exploit.
    Sorry to possibly burst your bubble of self-satisfaction, but can you point to the posts (maybe you can) where you disagreed with all the blusterers who told it was going to be the easiest deal in history
  • Huddesfield convictions.

    Amere Singh Dhaliwal, 35, of Holly Road, Huddersfield, guilty of 54 counts, including 21/22 counts of rape, sentenced to life with a minimum term of 18 years

    Irfan Ahmed, 34, of Yews Hill Road, Huddersfield, guilty of one count of sexual assault and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to eight years

    Zahid Hassan, 29, of Bland Street Huddersfield, guilty of six counts of rape, one count of attempted rape, one count of sexual assault, one count of trafficking for sexual exploitation, two counts of child abduction, two counts of supplying class A drugs sentenced to 18 years

    Mohammed Kammer, 34, of West View, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape, sentenced to 16 years

    Mohammed Rizwan Aslam, 31, of Huddersfield Road, Dewsbury, guilty of two counts of rape, sentenced to 15 years

    Abdul Rehman, 31, of Darnely Drive, Sheffield, guilty of supplying a class C drug, one count of rape, one count of assault and one count of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to 16 years

    Raj Singh Barsran, 34, of Caldercliffe Road, Huddersfield, guilty of rape and two counts of sexual assault, sentenced to 17 years

    Nahman Mohammed, 32, of West View, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape and one count of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to 15 years

    Mansoor Akhtar, 27, of Blackmoorfoot Road, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to eight years

    Wiqas Mahmud, 38, of Banks Crescent, Huddersfield, guilty of three counts of rape, sentenced to 15 years

    Nasarat Hussain, 30, of Upper Mount Street, Huddersfield, guilty of three counts of rape and one count of sexual assault, sentenced to 17 years

    Sajid Hussain, of 33, of Grasmere Road, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape, sentenced to 17 years

    Mohammed Irfraz, 30, of North Road, Huddersfield, guilty of child abduction and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation, sentenced to six years

    Faisal Nadeem, 32, of Carr Green, Huddersfield, guilty of rape and supplying class A drugs, sentenced to 12 years

    Mohammed Azeem, 33, of Wrose Road, Bradford, guilty of five counts of rape, sentenced to 18 years

    Manzoor Hassan, 38, of Bland Street, Huddersfield, guilty of administering a noxious substance, inciting child prostitution and supplying a class A drug, sentenced to five years

    Mohammed Akram, 33, of Springdale Street, Huddersfield, guilty of two counts of rape and two counts of trafficking for sexual exploitation and awaiting sentencing

    Niaz Ahmed, 54, of Woodthorpe Terrace, Huddersfield, guilty of sexual assault and inciting a child to engage in sexual activity and awaiting sentencing

  • Huddesfield convictions.


    They seem to have something in common, but I can't put my finger on it. The Guardian couldn't find the link either, despite showing the mug shots.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    currystar said:

    I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.

    The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.

    It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.

    Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
    What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
    Exactly the same thing that has held Japan back: demographics.

    Both of them are suffering from an increasing number of retirees being supported by a diminishing number of people of working age population. Italy also has a terrible legal system, endemic corruption and undercapitalised banks.
  • I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
    She is not handing over to anyone. If she loses a vnoc she resigns and a full leadership election takes place. As a member I would be furious with a coronation especially with a brexiteer
  • SeanT said:

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
    I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.

    We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).

    We're screwed.
    New vote here we come...
    Are we to be bullied by the EU into remaining in the EU?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    I was going to call bullshit. (And I suspect that is bullshit, or at least to a large part boilerplate.)

    But the text here - http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=961 - is quite long.

    ALSO, is the EU still the only organisation in the world building its websites on Coldfusion??? That alone would be reason enough to Leave.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Floater said:

    FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

    The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

    I think you wil

    So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
    er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
    I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
    True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
    It was a minority sport, an idee fixe, a cranky obsession, for people like ME. I think when I first joined PB in about 2005 I was virtually the only eurosceptic on the site, and I was roundly derided for my monomania. Fair enough. But I kept warning, over the years, that my obsession was grounded in reality, and that my scepticism would spread, dangerously, unless it was addressed.

    Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?

    He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
    Well the EU was still low on everyone's list of important issues, with the exception of some determined Tory MPs and a few newspaper owners. The British people were bothered by immigration. That's why they voted for Brexit - not because of the QMV rules in the Lisbon Treaty.

    Morris Dancer's fears of a right-wing backlash will come if we leave the EU and immigration continues.
  • Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    I see Bottas has been busy breaking MD's heart in FP1.
  • rcs1000 said:

    I was going to call bullshit. (And I suspect that is bullshit, or at least to a large part boilerplate.)

    But the text here - http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=961 - is quite long.

    ALSO, is the EU still the only organisation in the world building its websites on Coldfusion??? That alone would be reason enough to Leave.
    Boilerplate equals a lot of billable hours.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    SeanT said:

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
    I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.

    We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).

    We're screwed.
    New vote here we come...
    Are we to be bullied by the EU into remaining in the EU?
    Not bullied, but we may be exhausted into it. If no one in parliament can get behind a deal, and claim to despise no deal (I very much doubt all those who say it despite it as much as they say they do, or they'd be more willing to compromise and/or rebel), the public might just say eff it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    So the lack of democratic consent for the various EU reforms was not an issue? Interesting.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?
  • rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    currystar said:

    I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.

    The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.

    It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.

    Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
    What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
    Exactly the same thing that has held Japan back: demographics.

    Both of them are suffering from an increasing number of retirees being supported by a diminishing number of people of working age population. Italy also has a terrible legal system, endemic corruption and undercapitalised banks.
    And the greatest of these is corruption.
  • Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Floater said:

    FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

    The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

    I think you wil

    So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
    er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
    I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
    True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it


    Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?

    He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
    Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.

    It’s a huge waste but there we are.
    Perhaps it is the butterfly effect. Imagine a parallel universe where no PB existed, perhaps Remain would have won by a margin of 4%. It would be an interesting place to visit and possibly much calmer, as all Leavers would have said, "oh well, that is that then, we had better respect the-will-o-the-people and all go and kill ourselves after we have hanged Farage from a lamppost
    I think we would be about to elect a load of populist Eurosceptic MEPs to join the growing number of populist Eurosceptic MEPs on the Continent.
    Possibly. I really wouldn't get carried away by European Eurosceptisism. It might be the wet dream of British Euroseptics, but wishing for it isn't going to make it so, and I think our ridiculous predicament will probably clear any thinking the other side of the channel
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Floater said:

    FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

    The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

    I think you wil

    So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
    er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
    I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
    True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
    It was a minority sport, an idee fixe, a cranky obsession, for people like ME. I think when I first joined PB in about 2005 I was virtually the only eurosceptic on the site, and I was roundly derided for my monomania. Fair enough. But I kept warning, over the years, that my obsession was grounded in reality, and that my scepticism would spread, dangerously, unless it was addressed.

    Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?

    He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
    Well the EU was still low on everyone's list of important issues, with the exception of some determined Tory MPs and a few newspaper owners. The British people were bothered by immigration. That's why they voted for Brexit - not because of the QMV rules in the Lisbon Treaty.

    Morris Dancer's fears of a right-wing backlash will come if we leave the EU and immigration continues.
    Morris is not the only one with that fear. Seeds have been sown.
  • Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?

    Also David Miliband is in the USA.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Europhile elites I have no doubt played their part, but it is the leave position in power (I don't buy the idea that the way someone voted in 2016 means they could not possibly have negotiated something decent - since no one thought that when they thought May was a convert to a hard leave) and have to take on responsibility. Moreover, when people oppose you, as they are entitled to, the answer is you have to overcome it somehow, not just complain about being opposed.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910

    Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?

    I imagine Nick Clegg is well aware of the esteem in which he is held by some sections of the electorate and probably views his departure from the political scene as a positive for any "new" party.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?

    Centrism died.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    currystar said:

    I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.

    The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.

    It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.

    Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
    What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
    Exactly the same thing that has held Japan back: demographics.

    Both of them are suffering from an increasing number of retirees being supported by a diminishing number of people of working age population. Italy also has a terrible legal system, endemic corruption and undercapitalised banks.
    And the greatest of these is corruption.
    I think - and it's a particular hobby horse of mine - that demographics is the bigger issue, simply because Italy's corruption was there even when the country was powering ahead.

    I'd add another issue: the North/South divide was fudgeable when there was a lot of money to go around. It's not now. If (perhaps when) Italy leave the EU, there will be a godawful fight about how the South is subsidised.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?

    Chuka is still there
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Floater said:

    FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

    The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

    I think you wil

    So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
    er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
    I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
    True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it
    It was a minority sport, an idee fixe, a cranky obsession, for people like ME. I think when I first joined PB in about 2005 I was virtually the only eurosceptic on the site, and I was roundly derided for my monomania. Fair enough. But I kept warning, over the years, that my obsession was grounded in reality, and that my scepticism would spread, dangerously, unless it was addressed.

    Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?

    He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
    Well the EU was still low on everyone's list of important issues, with the exception of some determined Tory MPs and a few newspaper owners. The British people were bothered by immigration. That's why they voted for Brexit - not because of the QMV rules in the Lisbon Treaty.

    Morris Dancer's fears of a right-wing backlash will come if we leave the EU and immigration continues.
    Morris is not the only one with that fear. Seeds have been sown.
    But European Europscepticism is different to our own. For example, the FN in France is becoming less Eurosceptic - because it sees it as a vote loser - and more Islamaphobic.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Floater said:

    FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

    The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

    I think you wil

    So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
    er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
    I think it would be fair to say that most of our political leaders have been less than frank about the nature of our involvement with the EU. Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
    True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it

    Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?

    He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
    Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.

    It’s a huge waste but there we are.


    If only we'd been given a vote on Maastricht, or the Constitution, or Lisbon (as requested, and as promised) then we'd have voted them down, but stayed in the EU, and Brexit wouldn't even exist as a word.

    It is tragic. And it was so easily avoidable. The arrogant foolishness of the UK's europhile elite has led them to their worst nightmare. A magnificent irony for a future novelist to exploit.
    Sorry to possibly burst your bubble of self-satisfaction, but can you point to the posts (maybe you can) where you disagreed with all the blusterers who told it was going to be the easiest deal in history
    Many of the Brexiteers on here belong to the grim-dark school of thought. The Panglossian sunlit uplands lot are mostly on Twitter.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is now likely if May confirms she has confirmed the backstop of permanent SM and CU membership for Northern Ireland that the UK will be on the same terms anyway in the transition period until the end of 2021 and that will be enough for the DUP to keep propping May up given Corbyn and McDonnell are the alternative.

    However if no final trade deal agreed by the end of 2021 Boris may fancy his chances of toppling May and chucking the DUP and leading the Tories into a 2022 general election on a platform of CETA for GB

    Boris will be long gone by then. He is a busted flush. Even ERG prefer DD. You do seem to find it difficult to face up to his great fall. He would also lose the conservatives their Scottish seats. Do you not realise how toxic he is
    By 2022 DD will be past it and the Tories will want an election winner and there will likely be a Unionist majority at Holyrood anyway provided May has agreed the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period
    DD is past it now. But my point is Boris is finished and I was not talking about Holyrood I was talking about UK GE
    Holyrood is key for blocking indyref2 if a Unionist majority there.

    Boris is only in his way 50s, Davis over 70
  • RobD said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    So the lack of democratic consent for the various EU reforms was not an issue? Interesting.
    All EU law is ultimately accountable to the Council of Ministers (the elected heads of government) and increasingly the European Parliament. It therefore has legitimacy. If people did not like this they had the possibility to elect Eurosceptic parties to our Parliament. UKIP managed 2 MPs, both originally by defection and the Referendum Party and BNP none. All three of these parties stood on a Eurosceptic ticket, but were massively unsuccessful.

    The system of representation we have was recently endorsed by referendum. Eurosceptics (who by coincidence get very jumpy when another referendum on EU is suggested) are on thin ice indeed when they suggest there was no democratic legitimacy to the implementation of EU law. A less polite person would say that on this subject, as many others they are talking complete bollocks
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?

    Also David Miliband is in the USA.
    “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    I actually thought Davis and Boris were within a few years of each other. Surprising.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910


    She is not handing over to anyone. If she loses a vnoc she resigns and a full leadership election takes place. As a member I would be furious with a coronation especially with a brexiteer

    She wouldn't have to lose a VONC to resign - imagine if she got 170 votes but that was all. Yes she would win but her authority would be broken and she would have to resign.

    As a thoughtful Conservative, how doe you think the Government has conducted itself and comported itself during the A50 negotiations? Do you think what the Lithuanian Preaident said was valid:

    "We do not know what they want, they do not know themselves what they really want – that’s the problem."

    So much time was wasted after July 2016 (including the utterly pointless GE) when a proper national debate needed to be had before we entered A50.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,158
    edited October 2018

    Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?

    Also David Miliband is in the USA.
    “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."
    I thought more...

    "When Mexico Britain sends its people, they're not sending their best."
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    SeanT said:

    Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?

    Also David Miliband is in the USA.
    It is noticeable how many prominent Leavers AND Remainers do not actually live in the UK, or will soon be emigrating.
    Except Bridgen. He's happy here as he thinks he automatically gets an Irish passport, so he will be ok.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389

    RobD said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    So the lack of democratic consent for the various EU reforms was not an issue? Interesting.
    All EU law is ultimately accountable to the Council of Ministers (the elected heads of government) and increasingly the European Parliament. It therefore has legitimacy. If people did not like this they had the possibility to elect Eurosceptic parties to our Parliament. UKIP managed 2 MPs, both originally by defection and the Referendum Party and BNP none. All three of these parties stood on a Eurosceptic ticket, but were massively unsuccessful.

    The system of representation we have was recently endorsed by referendum. Eurosceptics (who by coincidence get very jumpy when another referendum on EU is suggested) are on thin ice indeed when they suggest there was no democratic legitimacy to the implementation of EU law. A less polite person would say that on this subject, as many others they are talking complete bollocks
    So, we did as you suggested. We elected a Eurosceptic party with a majority.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    SeanT said:

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
    I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.

    We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).

    We're screwed.
    We only have to concede the NI backstop for now which probably would get through Parliament, Starmer said yesterday Labour back it and most NI voters want to stay in the single market and customs union permanently.

    Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited October 2018
    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.

    Add # to your vote for the following:

    1) Mental illness
    2) World War I
    3) World War II
    4) Something by George Orwell
    5) Suicide cult
    6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times.
    7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on.
    8) Childbirth/divorce.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    edited October 2018

    RobD said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    So the lack of democratic consent for the various EU reforms was not an issue? Interesting.
    All EU law is ultimately accountable to the Council of Ministers (the elected heads of government) and increasingly the European Parliament. It therefore has legitimacy. If people did not like this they had the possibility to elect Eurosceptic parties to our Parliament. UKIP managed 2 MPs, both originally by defection and the Referendum Party and BNP none. All three of these parties stood on a Eurosceptic ticket, but were massively unsuccessful.

    The system of representation we have was recently endorsed by referendum. Eurosceptics (who by coincidence get very jumpy when another referendum on EU is suggested) are on thin ice indeed when they suggest there was no democratic legitimacy to the implementation of EU law. A less polite person would say that on this subject, as many others they are talking complete bollocks
    As others have stated, the EU wasnt high on people’s list of priorities. So when they were voting at elections, other matters weighed more heavily. This gave the government considerable latitude to get away with EU reform, morphing from an economic area to one that focuses far too much on political integration.
  • TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is now likely if May confirms she has confirmed the backstop of permanent SM and CU membership for Northern Ireland that the UK will be on the same terms anyway in the transition period until the end of 2021 and that will be enough for the DUP to keep propping May up given Corbyn and McDonnell are the alternative.

    However if no final trade deal agreed by the end of 2021 Boris may fancy his chances of toppling May and chucking the DUP and leading the Tories into a 2022 general election on a platform of CETA for GB

    Boris will be long gone by then. He is a busted flush. Even ERG prefer DD. You do seem to find it difficult to face up to his great fall. He would also lose the conservatives their Scottish seats. Do you not realise how toxic he is
    By 2022 DD will be past it and the Tories will want an election winner and there will likely be a Unionist majority at Holyrood anyway provided May has agreed the Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period
    DD is past it now. But my point is Boris is finished and I was not talking about Holyrood I was talking about UK GE
    Holyrood is key for blocking indyref2 if a Unionist majority there.

    Boris is only in his way 50s, Davis over 70
    Boris is over - move on
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,181
    Floater said:
    I bet someone responded with a link to that bit where Rees-Mogg taught his child to say Brexit.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. B, alas, had it been a tiny bit wetter the bets would be looking splendid.

    Still, my total stake was less than bus fare, and I didn't expect it to come off.

    Mr. Pulpstar, Roman times are surely considered part of antiquity?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    John_M said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Floater said:

    FPT. Mr Dancer I take no pleasure in our nation being a laughing stock, quite the reverse. It is one of the reasons I feel genuine anger toward many Leavers and their faux patriotism.

    The one thing I will take some pleasure from is the opprobrium that history will quickly pore on Johnson Fox and Davis for their conceit, self aggrandisement and lies.

    So, really in your eyes only some "lies" matter?
    er no, yohe original referendum, or are capable of researching, but your statement is simply wrong and is another Brexit fanatic lie.
    Gordon Brown's promise of a referendum on the EU constitution and then reneging when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty was only the most egregious.
    True, but in the past membership of the EU fixation was a minority sport. It featured about 20th in people's list of concerns. It was mainly a few gammons in the Tories and Old Labour that fixated about it

    Again I was ignored, and people like me were ignored. How many times did Our Genial Host chortlingly point out that the EU was ranked 493rd in the list of issues facing the country?

    He's not chortling now, is he? In the end, I was right, and the europhiles got it horribly, horribly wrong.
    Congratulations. You’ve seen Britain turn through an inflection point into long term decline and into a period where nothing other than Britain’s relationship with other European countries is going to be discussed for the foreseeable future.

    It’s a huge waste but there we are.


    If only we'd been given a vote on Maastricht, or the Constitution, or Lisbon (as requested, and as promised) then we'd have voted them down, but stayed in the EU, and Brexit wouldn't even exist as a word.

    It is tragic. And it was so easily avoidable. The arrogant foolishness of the UK's europhile elite has led them to their worst nightmare. A magnificent irony for a future novelist to exploit.
    Sorry to possibly burst your bubble of self-satisfaction, but can you point to the posts (maybe you can) where you disagreed with all the blusterers who told it was going to be the easiest deal in history
    Many of the Brexiteers on here belong to the grim-dark school of thought. The Panglossian sunlit uplands lot are mostly on Twitter.
    ... and in the ex cabinet ministers club.
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    Fuck me. Probably one of the worst posts I've ever seen here, and there's been some stiff competition.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    Apologise for what? Voting?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    HYUFD said:

    We only have to concede the NI backstop for now which probably would get through Parliament, Starmer said yesterday Labour back it and most NI voters want to stay in the single market and customs union permanently.

    Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election

    So now the DUP are going to be thrown under the bus - so much for principled Unionism. It's all about saving your own skins.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    Gentlepersons, gather round, Remainer going full gammon here. Stand back, let the nice man huff into his paper bag before he fulminates again.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    SeanT said:

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    I was just thinking yestrday that May must surely feel she needs to hand over to a Brexit PM and that David Davis is the obvious choice. It would need to be uncontested by Conservative MPs. Woud Boris hold back?
    I don't see how any new leader solves the problem. We are at an impasse, having a breezy old bloke staring at the impasse, rather than some stiff autistic woman, doesn't get rid of the impasse.

    We either have to concede everything the EU wants (which won't pass through the Commons), or we go to No Deal (which will also be rejected by the Commons).

    We're screwed.
    New vote here we come...
    Are we to be bullied by the EU into remaining in the EU?
    People are trying their best to make that true

    It has worked for them before
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    SeanT said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    You seem a little manic, even unbalanced. Have you considered visiting an NHS website for advice on cognitive issues?
    full belly laugh on that one
  • Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    Fuck me. Probably one of the worst posts I've ever seen here, and there's been some stiff competition.
    It wasn't my best. Apologies all round.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    Nurse!!
  • Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.

    Add # to your vote for the following:

    1) Mental illness
    2) World War I
    3) World War II
    4) Something by George Orwell
    5) Suicide cult
    6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times.
    7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on.
    8) Childbirth/divorce.
    Sunday's thread will be using 2, 3, and 6.

    It may also feature AV.
  • SeanT said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    You seem a little manic, even unbalanced. Have you considered visiting an NHS website for advice on cognitive issues?
    Apologies I was not suggesting you have any such issues, it was a poorly thought post
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Cameron set himself the aims of anchoring Scotland In the union, anchoring the UK in the EU and ending Tory wars over Europe.

    And he failed miserably on all three. He left the country an international laughing stock with its alliances in tatters and the union under more strain than at anytime in the past 300 years. And Tory MPs openly refer to their government as a shitshow and confess that they would not vote for it!

    If that is success I hate to think what failure would look like!

    Voters decided not to follow his advice. That doesn't make him a bad PM, it means voters made a mistake. More fool them: we are seeing the consequences.
    A leader who cannot lead is a shit leader.

    This is axiomatic.

    A PM who puts party before country is a charlatan.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    Perhaps you can work on a way to express your frustrations without resorting to making a joke of mental illness.

    Europhilia may be a concept I find hard to understand. But I wouldn't compare it to mental illness.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778

    Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?

    Also David Miliband is in the USA.
    “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."
    I thought more...

    "When Mexico Britain sends its people, they're not sending their best."
    :lol:
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    There is a reason I exited the next Con Leader market.
  • Floater said:
    Fuck Me.

    "Tomowwow bewongs to who Daddy?"
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    John_M said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    Gentlepersons, gather round, Remainer going full gammon here. Stand back, let the nice man huff into his paper bag before he fulminates again.
    "Full quinoa" surely for a Remainer ?
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    You seem a little manic, even unbalanced. Have you considered visiting an NHS website for advice on cognitive issues?
    Apologies I was not suggesting you have any such issues, it was a poorly thought post
    Apology accepted. Brexit can send a lot of people a bit bonkers (me included). You're not alone.
    Thank you, you are a gentleman
  • stodge said:


    She is not handing over to anyone. If she loses a vnoc she resigns and a full leadership election takes place. As a member I would be furious with a coronation especially with a brexiteer

    She wouldn't have to lose a VONC to resign - imagine if she got 170 votes but that was all. Yes she would win but her authority would be broken and she would have to resign.

    As a thoughtful Conservative, how doe you think the Government has conducted itself and comported itself during the A50 negotiations? Do you think what the Lithuanian Preaident said was valid:

    "We do not know what they want, they do not know themselves what they really want – that’s the problem."

    So much time was wasted after July 2016 (including the utterly pointless GE) when a proper national debate needed to be had before we entered A50.

    An honest answer is that I think she is trying to bring about a Brexit that does not crash our manufacturing or our union. She is awkward and very poor at communicating but she has an unswerving devotion to public service, is honest and stubborn.

    I cannot imagine anyone else doing much better and I do think the public realise that she has inherited a poisoned chalice and she is more respected by them than many on here think.

    I believe she is working on a deal that will not be acceptable to the ERG, but takes a much wider view than their ultra stance, and she is likely to get an agreement by the end of the year, bring it back to the HOC and tell the House here is the deal. You make your choice now

    Of course if she loses a vnoc then anything could happen
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    SeanT said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    You seem a little manic, even unbalanced. Have you considered visiting an NHS website for advice on cognitive issues?
    I feel a rollout of "urine-soaked" can't be far away, O Great Wordsmith.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    kle4 said:

    I actually thought Davis and Boris were within a few years of each other. Surprising.

    Actually Davis is 69, he turns 70 in December.

    Boris is 54 and over 15 years younger than Davis
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    We only have to concede the NI backstop for now which probably would get through Parliament, Starmer said yesterday Labour back it and most NI voters want to stay in the single market and customs union permanently.

    Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election

    So now the DUP are going to be thrown under the bus - so much for principled Unionism. It's all about saving your own skins.
    Dumping the DUP under the bus before the next general election is ultimately the only way to save the Union, Brexit and the Tories.

    The UUP are the Tories sister party in NI anyway, not the DUP
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    I actually thought Davis and Boris were within a few years of each other. Surprising.

    Actually Davis is 69, he turns 70 in December.

    Boris is 54 and over 15 years younger than Davis
    Both are crap. As is May.

  • TGOHF said:

    John_M said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    It wasn't a joke you prat. Blaming others for your own actions is a trait of those with personality disorder at worst and at best completely pathetic. Leavers need to start apologising not boasting
    Gentlepersons, gather round, Remainer going full gammon here. Stand back, let the nice man huff into his paper bag before he fulminates again.
    "Full quinoa" surely for a Remainer ?
    Quinoa is the choice of the working class I'll have you know.

    The Waitrose in Sheffield ran out last month.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.

    Add # to your vote for the following:

    1) Mental illness
    2) World War I
    3) World War II
    4) Something by George Orwell
    5) Suicide cult
    6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times.
    7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on.
    8) Childbirth/divorce.
    Sunday's thread will be using 2, 3, and 6.

    It may also feature AV.
    Do you think the EU are going to make May sign the treaty in a certain palace in Paris with particularly picturesque gardens xD ?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    Alistair said:

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    There is a reason I exited the next Con Leader market.
    I'm covered on DD, but still hoping for the big payday on Hunt.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018
    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    I actually thought Davis and Boris were within a few years of each other. Surprising.

    Actually Davis is 69, he turns 70 in December.

    Boris is 54 and over 15 years younger than Davis
    Both are crap. As is May.

    They have to beat Corbyn who is crapper
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.

    Add # to your vote for the following:

    1) Mental illness
    2) World War I
    3) World War II
    4) Something by George Orwell
    5) Suicide cult
    6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times.
    7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on.
    8) Childbirth/divorce.
    Sunday's thread will be using 2, 3, and 6.

    It may also feature AV.
    Do you think the EU are going to make May sign the treaty in a certain palace in Paris with particularly picturesque gardens xD ?
    Right location, but they are going to use a railway carriage.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. Russell, whom*.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,389
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    We only have to concede the NI backstop for now which probably would get through Parliament, Starmer said yesterday Labour back it and most NI voters want to stay in the single market and customs union permanently.

    Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election

    So now the DUP are going to be thrown under the bus - so much for principled Unionism. It's all about saving your own skins.
    Dumping the DUP under the bus before the next general election is ultimately the only way to save the Union, Brexit and the Tories.

    The UUP are the Tories sister party in NI anyway, not the DUP
    The UUP don't disagree with the DUP on this.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910
    HYUFD said:


    Dumping the DUP under the bus before the next general election is ultimately the only way to save the Union, Brexit and the Tories.

    The UUP are the Tories sister party in NI anyway, not the DUP

    I'm sure Arlene Foster and Nigel Dodds will take it all in good heart. By the way, the Union, Brexit and the Tories - in that order?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    We only have to concede the NI backstop for now which probably would get through Parliament, Starmer said yesterday Labour back it and most NI voters want to stay in the single market and customs union permanently.

    Having agreed the backstop the UK will then stay in the single market and customs union in the transition period until 2021 just like NI and if no future trading agreement agreed by then the government can then dump the DUP and shift to a FTA for GB position just before the 2022 general election

    So now the DUP are going to be thrown under the bus - so much for principled Unionism. It's all about saving your own skins.
    Dumping the DUP under the bus before the next general election is ultimately the only way to save the Union, Brexit and the Tories.

    The UUP are the Tories sister party in NI anyway, not the DUP
    The UUP don't disagree with the DUP on this.
    The UUP backed Remain and have 0 MPs
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    Alistair said:

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    There is a reason I exited the next Con Leader market.
    I'm covered on DD, but still hoping for the big payday on Hunt.
    Personally I enjoy the stress free life so a couple of weeks back I went quite big on May to last out the year at heavy odds on. So hoping the latest ERG musings are more piss and wind.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    edited October 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    currystar said:

    I did vote remain but I didn't really understand the EU then. Mt experience of the EU now and their behaviour during this process and the EU's dealings with Greece and other Southern European countries means that I would now vote leave. I do not consider it unpatriotic. I used to think Farage exaggerated how bad the EU are, I don't think so anymore.

    The issue with Southern Europe (and really, I'm only talking Italy and Greece here) is that they want to spend as they used to, but the markets won't let them do that without the implicit backing of the ECB and the Northern European countries.

    It is not politically acceptable in Germany to write a blank cheque to Italy or Greece with their taxpayers money. It's particularly not acceptable for Germans to have to work longer to pay for earlier retiring Greek pensioners.

    Of course, this problem could be simply solved by Italy and Greece leaving the Eurozone. The issue is that there isn't a political consensus in those countries that it is the right thing to do. The recent poll @Alanbrooke posted, which showed that Italians wanted to leave the EU (who annoyingly put spending limits on the government) but stay in the Eurozone shows the problem.
    What holds Italy back? In my experience, Italian produce of all kinds tends to be both good quality, and reasonably priced, so why is their economy 5% smaller than ten years ago?
    Exactly the same thing that has held Japan back: demographics.

    Both of them are suffering from an increasing number of retirees being supported by a diminishing number of people of working age population. Italy also has a terrible legal system, endemic corruption and undercapitalised banks.
    And the greatest of these is corruption.
    I think - and it's a particular hobby horse of mine - that demographics is the bigger issue, simply because Italy's corruption was there even when the country was powering ahead.

    .
    You should make a video post about it Robert.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.

    Add # to your vote for the following:

    1) Mental illness
    2) World War I
    3) World War II
    4) Something by George Orwell
    5) Suicide cult
    6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times.
    7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on.
    8) Childbirth/divorce.
    Suez Crisis?

    Though while politically inept, at least it was properly planned and executed, so the Brexit anology fails there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Dumping the DUP under the bus before the next general election is ultimately the only way to save the Union, Brexit and the Tories.

    The UUP are the Tories sister party in NI anyway, not the DUP

    I'm sure Arlene Foster and Nigel Dodds will take it all in good heart. By the way, the Union, Brexit and the Tories - in that order?
    I might put the Tories above Brexit but the Union first.

    Arlene and Nigel should not worry, although we will have to agree the NI backstop they will still effectively run the UK during the transition period and until the end of 2021 and control the Maybot but that will have to end by GE 2022 under a new Tory leader if we are to move towards a GB FTA
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    HYUFD said:

    Clegg at Facebook removes one of the likely potential key architects of a new centrist realignment surely?

    Chuka is still there
    Even Brexit can't fix everything. #newrealism
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,910


    An honest answer is that I think she is trying to bring about a Brexit that does not crash our manufacturing or our union. She is awkward and very poor at communicating but she has an unswerving devotion to public service, is honest and stubborn.

    I cannot imagine anyone else doing much better and I do think the public realise that she has inherited a poisoned chalice and she is more respected by them than many on here think.

    I believe she is working on a deal that will not be acceptable to the ERG, but takes a much wider view than their ultra stance, and she is likely to get an agreement by the end of the year, bring it back to the HOC and tell the House here is the deal. You make your choice now

    Of course if she loses a vnoc then anything could happen

    Thank you for the honest answer.

    I do agree she has played a bad hand to the best of her abilities and no one questions her honesty and dedication. I'm not sure she has been well advised or has trusted her own instincts enough at times.

    The trouble is we are all impaled on the spike of Unionism whether we agree with it or not.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.

    Add # to your vote for the following:

    1) Mental illness
    2) World War I
    3) World War II
    4) Something by George Orwell
    5) Suicide cult
    6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times.
    7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on.
    8) Childbirth/divorce.
    Sunday's thread will be using 2, 3, and 6.

    It may also feature AV.
    Do you think the EU are going to make May sign the treaty in a certain palace in Paris with particularly picturesque gardens xD ?
    It would be amusing.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Something;something car manufacturers something:

    https://twitter.com/fp_nerd/status/1053225742094479360?s=21
  • Past form is no guarantee of future performance, but sell facebook.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Yes, you have to admire Clegg's commitment to 'building a moral bridge between politics and tech' while taking the £1 million a year pay package his new post comes with and moving to sunny California thousands of miles from Brexit
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited October 2018

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    SeanT said:

    Brexit fanatics should be a little careful about blaming "Europhile elites" for the ridiculous state we find ourselves in. It is about time they took ownership of the shithole they have dug for the rest of us. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/personality-disorder/

    Well that proves it. You must be right because there is an NHS website about mental confusion.

    Or did you accidentally link to a page you personally visit regularly?
    You didn't laugh at the hilarious remainer joke at the expense of those with mental health ?

    Not very woke of you.
    Which allegory or comparison will be used next for Brexit.

    Add # to your vote for the following:

    1) Mental illness
    2) World War I
    3) World War II
    4) Something by George Orwell
    5) Suicide cult
    6) A historical story from antiquity, or roman times.
    7) An advertising campaign Roger may or may not have worked on.
    8) Childbirth/divorce.
    Sunday's thread will be using 2, 3, and 6.

    It may also feature AV.
    Do you think the EU are going to make May sign the treaty in a certain palace in Paris with particularly picturesque gardens xD ?
    It would be amusing.
    Though 20 years later the country forced to sign the earlier Treaty at that Palace was led by a Fascist dictator who ended up invading most of Europe in revenge
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Alistair said:

    I hope you all have David Davis covered for next Prime Minister / Conservative leader:

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1053209939504709634?s=21

    There is a reason I exited the next Con Leader market.
    I'm covered on DD, but still hoping for the big payday on Hunt.
    Hunt's last name lends itself to easily to political epithets (I can just see the banners now). However, 'tis but a matter of a simple deed poll. Jeremy Flanker has a certain ring to it.
This discussion has been closed.