We are where we are because we are a medium sized European country and the EU is one of the three blocs that dictate the terms of global trade. We never did hold all the cards. Our choice today is what it has always been: walking out with no deal or agreeing the terms the EU sets. It was just dishonest to pretend otherwise. And if we do the former we’ll end up doing the latter anyway.
Oh dear - Looks like for all HYUFD's spin on here the game's up for Theresa!
She'll have to go next week surely?
I think he’s fallen back on civil war and threatening the jocks with the British jackboot, now.
Or something..
Well that may be the only way to keep them in the UK if No Deal which could quickly get very serious for both the economy and the Union
Hugely exaggerated. The economy will stall and get sluggish for a couple of years, not collapse. The EU is a convenience, not a lifeline.
And I’d never advocate or support the use of force against our fellow Britons, in whatever part of our constituent nations.
Sure, I’d be very upset but, if they want to go, we have to let them.
No, deadly serious. The complacency of hardcore Brexiteers is astonishing.
With No Deal we would leave our largest export market without even a free trade deal, manufacturers and banks are all threatening to go if that is the case.
Scotland and NI may go, collapsing a centuries old Union for a No Deal Brexit polling shows not even English voters back.
Forget Suez or the fall of Singapore, this would be the greatest national humiliation since we lost the American War of Independence 250 years ago, whoever was PM at the time would go down as the Lord North of our age for centuries.
Even the Tories being out of office for 20 years would be small fry in comparison, it would be define our nation and our generation for the rest of our lives
Oh get a grip.
We just re- signed a big contract in Belgium. Their guy just wants us to liaise with his shop floor guys over March and April that there will be enough in the system between us to cope with the odd delay (there will be, no issue).
And that is the sole time Brexit has yet impinged on us, and we export two thirds of our output. Adimittedly we are lucky the large majority is worldwide,not EU, but all this “ four horsemen of the apocalypse as a prelude to the slaughter of the first born” does your cause no good.
I am afraid that is the truth, our gdp could fall by almost 10% and the country could break up, the stakes are that high
We are where we are because we are a medium sized European country and the EU is one of the three blocs that dictate the terms of global trade. We never did hold all the cards. Our choice today is what it has always been: walking out with no deal or agreeing the terms the EU sets. It was just dishonest to pretend otherwise. And if we do the former we’ll end up doing the latter anyway.
People really think the Lisbon Treaty was a factor in the Brexit vote? I'm not sure Joe Public even remembers there ever was such a thing.
The stolen referendum was most certainly thing. The no ifs not buts commitment by David Cameron to hold a referendum in the most read newspaper in the country. The rise of UKIP the lack of migration controls on the previous treaty. All fed into the ‘enough is enough’.
"Cast iron guarantee". Remember?
The tragic thing about Brexit is that it was so avoidable, if only europhiles had possessed an ounce of humility and common sense, they should have realised that the eurosceptic boil needed to be lanced. The people just wanted to feel: I have had my say.
But referendum after referendum was denied (on various Treaties) so by the time they HAD to concede a vote, it was on the explosive and binary and calamitous issue of IN or OUT.
If we'd been allowed to reject Maastricht or the Constitution or Lisbon we'd still be in the EU now, all the sceptic anger would have been vented, and the boring eurogeeks would be discreetly adjusting our quasi membership in a way that quietly suits both sides, and the public would be pacified.
Instead the europhiles, in their arrogance, thought they could ignore the people forever, until the moment came when they couldn't, and it all blew up in their faces.
People like me tried to warn them. They were slowly stoking a fire. Now it BURNS.
Dominic Grieve on BBC news saying there must now be a second EU referendum
Well he would wouldn’t he? He’s an ultra.
As Aaron says: Lisbon. Our leaders totally screwed up by not doing what they said they would.
I think the failure to hold a refendum on Lisbon was the single biggest reason for us leaving the EU.
Moreover, until Lisbon there was no horrible A50, no agreed mechanism on leaving the EU, so if we'd left before Lisbon, or voted it down then left, we would have had a few years of boring bilateral negotiations between various capitals, and the EU would not have had any legal power over us, with this absurd two year time limit, forcing us to make desperate concession after concession.
Leaving would still have been a tediously painful and prolonged legalistic wankathon, but it would have been done by civil servants and QCs behind closed doors, so we'd have been spared the pain of witnessing it, and the UK would have been in a much stronger position from the off.
Signing Lisbon without a referendum signed away our right to Leave the EU without fucking our economy.
How I despise the europhiles: Major, Blair, Heseltine, Clark, Brown, all of them. They did this. I hope they are anally raped with red hot pokers in Hell.
Er, at the time you were declaring loudly on here that Lisbon had converted you to being a Europhile.
I do remember that... maybe just temporarily intoxicated on all the rich things that other European nations produce, from culture, cuisine and fine wine.
You can't find it, because it does not exist.
I do remember you declaring your love for Europe and how you had changed your position on it. It struck me at the time. I don’t recall if that was at the time of the Lisbon treaty though.
The problem for Gove is that there's enough MPs to block his ascension because they think he's a c*** and the fear he'd bring in Dominic Cummings to be his Chief of Staff.
Gove has pissed off a lot of people, from Cameroons, to Boris fans, to the ERG who think he's the Marshal Petain of the Brexiteers.
You are probably right but he's intelligent, he's pragmatic, he gets things done and he's a Brexiteer. I've way more confidence that he, rather than May would negotiate a sensible Brexit. If it's no deal, I'm also more confident he'd steer the UK through that with more judgement and decisiveness than May would.
Gove leaks and spins and gossips. He is fundamentally ill-equipped to be the leader of a Government.
That just shows he's a politician. Leader of a government should be able to do spin etc. In fact if a 21st century politician didn't ever leak, spin or gossip ever I'd imagine there is something wrong with them and they are fundamentally ill-equipped t be the leader of a Party let alone government.
What precisely, do any of the Gove supporters think he'd do differently to May?
He would try. He would come out with proposals, stand for something, react. He would negotiate. He would do the job of the Prime Minister at this time in the way May seems incapable of doing. The other heads of government are bewildered by the way May is wasting time not listening to them and not coming up with new proposals.
Gove would make no deal less likely while simultaneously making it less damaging if it did happen.
Article 50 was the key one. Setting the clock running was the one thing which was wholly within the control of HMG. It was done without any concept of what the preferred end goal was. Indeed, that question has yet to be hammered out. We ought to be approaching the point of beginning to think about calling Article 50. Probably, post a Second Referendum or GE to determine what our intention actually is.
Triggering Article 50 with no agreed plan and the ridiculous red lines exacerbated a situation that had already been made virtually impossible by the promises made by the Bucanneers in the Conservative party during the referendum campaign.
I think triggering Article 50 so early is the biggie. Setting a two-year deadline before there was any desired outcome worked out, or contingency plans drawn up for a worst-case "No Deal" scenario, was ridiculous. And tbh I think the decision was only taken because May was already thinking about a snap election right from the beginning - she wanted to be able to say to Brexit voters that a concrete step had been taken (and not leave any space for UKIP), even though taking that concrete step so early screwed our chances of getting a good deal.
Thanks. But I don't honestly think the timing of Article 50 mattered that much, given that the EU have negotiated in fairly bad faith throughout (the sequencing being the really key point). That is the structural advantage they have, and some will say it's fair enough for them to use it (wiser heads have counseled a bit more magnanimity).
Had we triggered 6 months later, I think we'd simply be in today's situation next April. Though as you and @RoyalBlue say, we could and should have done more work on No Deal in that time.
It's not the timing of it that's the real problem, it's the fact of its wording.
One thing I think the Brexiteers are sorta right about is that, for these negotiations to work, we would've needed to plausibly threaten a willingness to "No Deal". But, to be able to do that, surely we would've needed years and years of preparation to be able to cope with all the effects of "No Deal" - i.e. triggering the two-year clock much later on. As it is, because we would so obviously be totally screwed if we left without a deal, we can't threaten to do it (or, more accurately, can't threaten it and have the other side believe it).
People really think the Lisbon Treaty was a factor in the Brexit vote? I'm not sure Joe Public even remembers there ever was such a thing.
It doesn't matter what the people think. 50% of people, by definition, have an IQ under 100 - i.e. they are thick.
We are talking about the political evolution that led us into this multicoloured clusterfuck: and the critical moment in that evolution was when we signed away our rights to a decent Leave option, when we adopted Lisbon (on which we were promised a referendum, which we were then fraudulently denied).
Europhile scum did this. Go shout at them.
Hold on. Lisbon gave us the right to withdraw. A50 is literally a Lisbon treaty thing.
The whole of Lisbon should have gone down in flames, to be massively watered down when represented. But we were denied a say. So we and the EU are where we are and Lisbon was a big contribution to that situation.
Be interesting when the diaries come out covering this period. I suspect the overriding issue that has caused problems, bigger than all three set out above, will be May's micro-managerial style, inserting herself in the process when others had been given a task to deliver an outcome.
I think the problem is she is so utterly cautious. To the point that nothing happens.
Either that, or she is a chess playing genius with a zen-like calm who will somehow emerge in December with a deal.
A very good set of questions. The triggering of Article 50 without a clear plan was the critical mistake. But Leavers deludedly thought they held all the cards. The responsibility is primarily theirs.
Cameron had promised (threatened) people on multiple occasions that he'd trigger A50 the morning after the referendum - You can't blame Leave voters for the political class getting their dander up - They has to wait way longer than they expected during the referendum campaign as it was....
Thanks for confirming Leave supporters were unusually stupid.
We are where we are because we are a medium sized European country and the EU is one of the three blocs that dictate the terms of global trade. We never did hold all the cards. Our choice today is what it has always been: walking out with no deal or agreeing the terms the EU sets. It was just dishonest to pretend otherwise. And if we do the former we’ll end up doing the latter anyway.
We are where we are because of the intellectual and moral atrophy of our politicians, civil servants and institutions of state as a consequence of our EU membership. Our whole governmental apparatus has ‘learned helplessness’ written all over it.
Article 50 was the key one. Setting the clock running was the one thing which was wholly within the control of HMG. It was done without any concept of what the preferred end goal was. Indeed, that question has yet to be hammered out. We ought to be approaching the point of beginning to think about calling Article 50. Probably, post a Second Referendum or GE to determine what our intention actually is.
Triggering Article 50 with no agreed plan and the ridiculous red lines exacerbated a situation that had already been made virtually impossible by the promises made by the Bucanneers in the Conservative party during the referendum campaign.
The red lines were reasonable but they meant the outcome had to be Canada. As Europe have said all along. Had we spent the last two years planning for that we would be much further along. The problem was May wanted the red lines but didn't want what they meant.
The big mistake is Brexit itself. But if you are going to do it, the UK's BATNA (best alternative to negotiated settlement) was to refuse to budge. To Leavers however that would be Remainers thwarting Brexit. If you spend more effort negotiating with your diehards than with your counterparts you won't get a good result.
The problem for Gove is that there's enough MPs to block his ascension because they think he's a c*** and the fear he'd bring in Dominic Cummings to be his Chief of Staff.
Gove has pissed off a lot of people, from Cameroons, to Boris fans, to the ERG who think he's the Marshal Petain of the Brexiteers.
You are probably right but he's intelligent, he's pragmatic, he gets things done and he's a Brexiteer. I've way more confidence that he, rather than May would negotiate a sensible Brexit. If it's no deal, I'm also more confident he'd steer the UK through that with more judgement and decisiveness than May would.
Gove leaks and spins and gossips. He is fundamentally ill-equipped to be the leader of a Government.
That just shows he's a politician. Leader of a government should be able to do spin etc. In fact if a 21st century politician didn't ever leak, spin or gossip ever I'd imagine there is something wrong with them and they are fundamentally ill-equipped t be the leader of a Party let alone government.
What precisely, do any of the Gove supporters think he'd do differently to May?
He would try. He would come out with proposals, stand for something, react. He would negotiate. He would do the job of the Prime Minister at this time in the way May seems incapable of doing. The other heads of government are bewildered by the way May is wasting time not listening to them and not coming up with new proposals.
Gove would make no deal less likely while simultaneously making it less damaging if it did happen.
Dominic Grieve on BBC news saying there must now be a second EU referendum
Well he would wouldn’t he? He’s an ultra.
As Aaron says: Lisbon. Our leaders totally screwed up by not doing what they said they would.
I think the failure to hold a refendum on Lisbon was the single biggest reason for us leaving the EU.
Moreover, until Lisbon there was no horrible A50, no agreed mechanism on leaving the EU, so if we'd left before Lisbon, or voted it down then left, we would have had a few years of boring bilateral negotiations between various capitals, and the EU would not have had any legal power over us, with this absurd two year time limit, forcing us to make desperate concession after concession.
Leaving would still have been a tediously painful and prolonged legalistic wankathon, but it would have been done by civil servants and QCs behind closed doors, so we'd have been spared the pain of witnessing it, and the UK would have been in a much stronger position from the off.
Signing Lisbon without a referendum signed away our right to Leave the EU without fucking our economy.
How I despise the europhiles: Major, Blair, Heseltine, Clark, Brown, all of them. They did this. I hope they are anally raped with red hot pokers in Hell.
Er, at the time you were declaring loudly on here that Lisbon had converted you to being a Europhile.
I do remember that... maybe just temporarily intoxicated on all the rich things that other European nations produce, from culture, cuisine and fine wine.
You can't find it, because it does not exist.
You certainly went through a ‘Reluctant Federalist’ phase, but who cares? Given you are a self-confessed bipolar alcoholic, I would think it natural that you regularly swing from one extreme to another.
People really think the Lisbon Treaty was a factor in the Brexit vote? I'm not sure Joe Public even remembers there ever was such a thing.
It doesn't matter what the people think. 50% of people, by definition, have an IQ under 100 - i.e. they are thick.
We are talking about the political evolution that led us into this multicoloured clusterfuck: and the critical moment in that evolution was when we signed away our rights to a decent Leave option, when we adopted Lisbon (on which we were promised a referendum, which we were then fraudulently denied).
Europhile scum did this. Go shout at them.
Hold on. Lisbon gave us the right to withdraw. A50 is literally a Lisbon treaty thing.
The whole of Lisbon should have gone down in flames, to be massively watered down when represented. But we were denied a say. So we and the EU are where we are and Lisbon was a big contribution to that situation.
But, the main reason that Leave won in 2016 was FoM. Simples. Forget all the stuff about treaties, and agreements and sovereignty and fishing rights. The vast majority voted to end mass migration imho.
Likewise. At the moment, intelligence, conviction and decisiveness utterly trump electability.
Looks like Gove's got some momentum, at least on PB.
Much as I respect his intelligence, if there is one Tory who would be near guaranteed to put Corbyn in No 10 it is Michael Gove
Calm down HYUFD!
Corbyn is going nowhere near No 10. Even if Brexit is an unquestionably calamitous 'no deal', Corbyn's Momentum Party are utterly unelectable, even when confronted by the ridiculous Gove as PM.
Be interesting when the diaries come out covering this period. I suspect the overriding issue that has caused problems, bigger than all three set out above, will be May's micro-managerial style, inserting herself in the process when others had been given a task to deliver an outcome.
I think the problem is she is so utterly cautious. To the point that nothing happens.
Either that, or she is a chess playing genius with a zen-like calm who will somehow emerge in December with a deal.
I know which one I think is most likely.
If she emerges with a deal in December it will either be because she surrenders on everything or if the Irish start to panic, which I don't altogether rule out.
The problem for Gove is that there's enough MPs to block his ascension because they think he's a c*** and the fear he'd bring in Dominic Cummings to be his Chief of Staff.
Gove has pissed off a lot of people, from Cameroons, to Boris fans, to the ERG who think he's the Marshal Petain of the Brexiteers.
You are probably right but he's intelligent, he's pragmatic, he gets things done and he's a Brexiteer. I've way more confidence that he, rather than May would negotiate a sensible Brexit. If it's no deal, I'm also more confident he'd steer the UK through that with more judgement and decisiveness than May would.
Gove leaks and spins and gossips. He is fundamentally ill-equipped to be the leader of a Government.
That just shows he's a politician. Leader of a government should be able to do spin etc. In fact if a 21st century politician didn't ever leak, spin or gossip ever I'd imagine there is something wrong with them and they are fundamentally ill-equipped t be the leader of a Party let alone government.
What precisely, do any of the Gove supporters think he'd do differently to May?
He would try. He would come out with proposals, stand for something, react. He would negotiate. He would do the job of the Prime Minister at this time in the way May seems incapable of doing. The other heads of government are bewildered by the way May is wasting time not listening to them and not coming up with new proposals.
Gove would make no deal less likely while simultaneously making it less damaging if it did happen.
Sounds like the square root of naff-all to me.
If you think listening and reacting and negotiating with the EU is naff all then why do we bother?
Dominic Grieve on BBC news saying there must now be a second EU referendum
Well he would wouldn’t he? He’s an ultra.
As Aaron says: Lisbon. Our leaders totally screwed up by not doing what they said they would.
I think the failure to hold a refendum on Lisbon was the single biggest reason for us leaving the EU.
Moreover, until Lisbon there was no horrible A50, no agreed mechanism on leaving the EU, so if we'd left before Lisbon, or voted it down then left, we would have had a few years of boring bilateral negotiations between various capitals, and the EU would not have had any legal power over us, with legalistic wankathon, but it would have been done by civil servants and QCs behind closed doors, so we'd have been spared the pain of witnessing it, and the UK would have been in a much stronger position from the off.
Signing Lisbon without a referendum signed away our right to Leave the EU without fucking our economy.
How I despise the europhiles: Major, Blair, Heseltine, Clark, Brown, all of them. They did this. I hope they are anally raped with red hot pokers in Hell.
Er, at the time you were declaring loudly on here that Lisbon had converted you to being a Europhile.
Go on, find the quote where I said that, you fucking shit-eating moron. Grrr.
Eloquent.
I take your word for it that you never said that Sean, but to be fair, finding any quote on Vanilla is harder than negotiating a Brexit deal when led by a team of numpties.
They can't find it because it doesn';in their heads. I think what they are recalling is a handful of resigned posts I made, after Lisbon, when I said we had finally signed away our freedom forever (and I was right) so I would try and become a europhile, as my country as I knew it was gone, so I had no choice.
That is what I said. How right I was.
I also wrote one blogpost on the Telegraph about three years ago saying How I was a eurosceptic but I could be persuaded to be a europhile if the EU reformed and became a properly democratic superstate, but that was very unlikely due to the lack of a real EU demos.
That's it. That's the extent of my europhilia on here. I sensed Lisbon was the end of the UK as a sovereign nation, so I admitted defeat by the europhiles, and tried - for about a week - to make the best of it.
But, oh, the anger burned. And then finally we DID get a referendum. But it was far too late. Tragic.
Yes. I think it might have lasted about a week....
Article 50 was the key one. Setting the clock running was the one thing which was wholly within the control of HMG. It was done without any concept of what the preferred end goal was. Indeed, that question has yet to be hammered out. We ought to be approaching the point of beginning to think about calling Article 50. Probably, post a Second Referendum or GE to determine what our intention actually is.
Triggering Article 50 with no agreed plan and the ridiculous red lines exacerbated a situation that had already been made virtually impossible by the promises made by the Bucanneers in the Conservative party during the referendum campaign.
The red lines were reasonable but they meant the outcome had to be Canada. As Europe have said all along. Had we spent the last two years planning for that we would be much further along. The problem was May wanted the red lines but didn't want what they meant.
May at least understands that a Canada deal would be disastrous for large parts of the economy. It does not deliver what we were promised: all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides.
People really think the Lisbon Treaty was a factor in the Brexit vote? I'm not sure Joe Public even remembers there ever was such a thing.
It doesn't matter what the people think. 50% of people, by definition, have an IQ under 100 - i.e. they are thick.
We are talking about the political evolution that led us into this multicoloured clusterfuck: and the critical moment in that evolution was when we signed away our rights to a decent Leave option, when we adopted Lisbon (on which we were promised a referendum, which we were then fraudulently denied).
Europhile scum did this. Go shout at them.
Hold on. Lisbon gave us the right to withdraw. A50 is literally a Lisbon treaty thing.
The whole of Lisbon should have gone down in flames, to be massively watered down when represented. But we were denied a say. So we and the EU are where we are and Lisbon was a big contribution to that situation.
But, the main reason that Leave won in 2016 was FoM. Simples. Forget all the stuff about treaties, and agreements and sovereignty and fishing rights. The vast majority voted to end mass migration imho.
FoM is a Maastricht thing. Single Market.
We could have imposed transition controls on FoM from the new accession nations in 2004 but Blair refused
Be interesting when the diaries come out covering this period. I suspect the overriding issue that has caused problems, bigger than all three set out above, will be May's micro-managerial style, inserting herself in the process when others had been given a task to deliver an outcome.
I think the problem is she is so utterly cautious. To the point that nothing happens.
Either that, or she is a chess playing genius with a zen-like calm who will somehow emerge in December with a deal.
I know which one I think is most likely.
If she emerges with a deal in December it will either be because she surrenders on everything or if the Irish start to panic, which I don't altogether rule out.
Anyway, speaking of Irish I'm off to see U2 in Manchester tomorrow night so need some sleep. Good night everyone, on the 50th anniversary of Bob Beamon's amazing jump.
People really think the Lisbon Treaty was a factor in the Brexit vote? I'm not sure Joe Public even remembers there ever was such a thing.
It doesn't matter what the people think. 50% of people, by definition, have an IQ under 100 - i.e. they are thick.
We are talking about the political evolution that led us into this multicoloured clusterfuck: and the critical moment in that evolution was when we signed away our rights to a decent Leave option, when we adopted Lisbon (on which we were promised a referendum, which we were then fraudulently denied).
Europhile scum did this. Go shout at them.
Hold on. Lisbon gave us the right to withdraw. A50 is literally a Lisbon treaty thing.
The whole of Lisbon should have gone down in flames, to be massively watered down when represented. But we were denied a say. So we and the EU are where we are and Lisbon was a big contribution to that situation.
But, the main reason that Leave won in 2016 was FoM. Simples. Forget all the stuff about treaties, and agreements and sovereignty and fishing rights. The vast majority voted to end mass migration imho.
FoM is a Maastricht thing. Single Market.
FOM is a Treaty of Rome thing. However, we accepted willly nilly extending it way past its original scope from the world of 1973. Foolishly.
Good article. There was little choice on triggering A50, in fact it felt that there was a big delay at the time. The EU wouldn't talk beforehand, the country demanded (at the time) that we were serious about leaving. The real error here was not producing a big opening pitch, the Chequers arrangement or whatever, and launching it the day A50 was triggered. Would have put us on the front foot.
Apart from that I agree that we should have fought tooth and nail on sequencing; DD called that one right. Once that was agreed, we were well on the path to current troubles and humiliation.
Another vote for Gove (from a Remainer) he's a doer, has real intellectual clout and clarity of purpose and sees things through. Tories could do a lot worse, particularly if a true believer in Brexit is an essential requirement.
Very interesting by-election tonight here in Oxfordshire: Iffley Fields in Oxford, on Oxfordshire County Council. It's a Labour/Green marginal (Labour incumbent, but the Green candidate held it before them) and the Lib Dems have stood down and endorsed the Greens. The Conservatives have done some canvassing, though I have no idea why. Shouldn't be too long before the result comes through.
Article 50 was the key one. Setting the clock running was the one thing which was wholly within the control of HMG. It was done without any concept of what the preferred end goal was. Indeed, that question has yet to be hammered out. We ought to be approaching the point of beginning to think about calling Article 50. Probably, post a Second Referendum or GE to determine what our intention actually is.
Triggering Article 50 with no agreed plan and the ridiculous red lines exacerbated a situation that had already been made virtually impossible by the promises made by the Bucanneers in the Conservative party during the referendum campaign.
The red lines were reasonable but they meant the outcome had to be Canada. As Europe have said all along. Had we spent the last two years planning for that we would be much further along. The problem was May wanted the red lines but didn't want what they meant.
May at least understands that a Canada deal would be disastrous for large parts of the economy. It does not deliver what we were promised: all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides.
If she didn't want Canada she shouldn't have set her red lines. One or the other.
People really think the Lisbon Treaty was a factor in the Brexit vote? I'm not sure Joe Public even remembers there ever was such a thing.
It doesn't matter what the people think. 50% of people, by definition, have an IQ under 100 - i.e. they are thick.
We are talking about the political evolution that led us into this multicoloured clusterfuck: and the critical moment in that evolution was when we signed away our rights to a decent Leave option, when we adopted Lisbon (on which we were promised a referendum, which we were then fraudulently denied).
Europhile scum did this. Go shout at them.
Hold on. Lisbon gave us the right to withdraw. A50 is literally a Lisbon treaty thing.
The whole of Lisbon should have gone down in flames, to be massively watered down when represented. But we were denied a say. So we and the EU are where we are and Lisbon was a big contribution to that situation.
But, the main reason that Leave won in 2016 was FoM. Simples. Forget all the stuff about treaties, and agreements and sovereignty and fishing rights. The vast majority voted to end mass migration imho.
FoM is a Maastricht thing. Single Market.
FoM from France and Germany was never really an issue. Conversations you never heard “I wish those Swedes would just go back. They all come and work on farms and factories for minimum wage, double it up with tax credits, live ten to a house and do it all with a smile on their face”.
Oh dear - Looks like for all HYUFD's spin on here the game's up for Theresa!
She'll have to go next week surely?
I think he’s fallen back on civil war and threatening the jocks with the British jackboot, now.
Or something..
Well that may be the only way to keep them in the UK if No Deal which could quickly get very serious for both the economy and the Union
Hugely exaggerated. The economy will stall and get sluggish for a couple of years, not collapse. The EU is a convenience, not a lifeline.
And I’d never advocate or support the use of force against our fellow Britons, in whatever part of our constituent nations.
Sure, I’d be very upset but, if they want to go, we have to let them.
No, deadly serious. The complacency of hardcore Brexiteers is astonishing.
With No Deal we would leave our largest export market without even a free trade deal, manufacturers and banks are all threatening to go if that is the case.
Scotland and NI may go, collapsing a centuries old Union for a No Deal Brexit polling shows not even English voters back.
Forget Suez or the fall of Singapore, this would be the greatest national humiliation since we lost the American War of Independence 250 years ago, whoever was PM at the time would go down as the Lord North of our age for centuries.
Even the Tories being out of office for 20 years would be small fry in comparison, it would be define our nation and our generation for the rest of our lives
Oh get a grip.
We just re- signed a big contract in Belgium. Their guy just wants us to liaise with his shop floor guys over March and April that there will be enough in the system between us to cope with the odd delay (there will be, no issue).
And that is the sole time Brexit has yet impinged on us, and we export two thirds of our output. Adimittedly we are lucky the large majority is worldwide,not EU, but all this “ four horsemen of the apocalypse as a prelude to the slaughter of the first born” does your cause no good.
I am afraid that is the truth, our gdp could fall by almost 10% and the country could break up, the stakes are that high
Likewise. At the moment, intelligence, conviction and decisiveness utterly trump electability.
Looks like Gove's got some momentum, at least on PB.
Much as I respect his intelligence, if there is one Tory who would be near guaranteed to put Corbyn in No 10 it is Michael Gove
Calm down HYUFD!
Corbyn is going nowhere near No 10. Even if Brexit is an unquestionably calamitous 'no deal', Corbyn's Momentum Party are utterly unelectable, even when confronted by the ridiculous Gove as PM.
Do not be so sure, they got 40% of the vote last time and could easily get in with SNP and LD support
Dominic Grieve on BBC news saying there must now be a second EU referendum
Well he would wouldn’t he? He’s an ultra.
As Aaron says: Lisbon. Our leaders totally screwed up by not doing what they said they would.
I think the failure to hold a refendum on Lisbon was the single biggest reason for us leaving the EU.
Moreover, until Lisbon there was no horrible A50, no agreed mechanism on leaving the EU, so if we'd left before Lisbon, or voted it down then left, we would have had a few years of boring bilateral negotiations between various capitals, and the EU would not have had any legal power over us
As has been observed many, many times, Article 50 is designed to give the EU all the power and the departing nation next to none.
If May hadn't been busy wanking off Paul Dacre into a cup this might have occurred to her too.
But you guys are right, the mistakes of the UK political class in making peace with the grand Eurofederalist project have been decades in the making. Once great fuckup after another.
We are where we are because we are a medium sized European country and the EU is one of the three blocs that dictate the terms of global trade. We never did hold all the cards. Our choice today is what it has always been: walking out with no deal or agreeing the terms the EU sets. It was just dishonest to pretend otherwise. And if we do the former we’ll end up doing the latter anyway.
As has been clear to anyone since before the referendum, who is the slightest bit informed.
Oh dear - Looks like for all HYUFD's spin on here the game's up for Theresa!
She'll have to go next week surely?
I think he’s fallen back on civil war and threatening the jocks with the British jackboot, now.
Or something..
Well that may be the only way to keep them in the UK if No Deal which could quickly get very serious for both the economy and the Union
Hugely exaggerated. The economy will stall and get sluggish for a couple of years, not collapse. The EU is a convenience, not a lifeline.
And I’d never advocate or support the use of force against our fellow Britons, in whatever part of our constituent nations.
Sure, I’d be very upset but, if they want to go, we have to let them.
No, deadly serious. The complacency of hardcore Brexiteers is astonishing.
With No Deal we would leave our largest export market without even a free trade deal, manufacturers and banks are all threatening to go if that is the case.
Scotland and NI may go, collapsing a centuries old Union for a No Deal Brexit polling shows not even English voters back.
Forget Suez or the fall of Singapore, this would be the greatest national humiliation since we lost the American War of Independence 250 years ago, whoever was PM at the time would go down as the Lord North of our age for centuries.
Even the Tories being out of office for 20 years would be small fry in comparison, it would be define our nation and our generation for the rest of our lives
Oh get a grip.
We just re- signed a big contract in Belgium. Their guy just wants us to liaise with his shop floor guys over March and April that there will be enough in the system between us to cope with the odd delay (there will be, no issue).
And that is the sole time Brexit has yet impinged on us, and we export two thirds of our output. Adimittedly we are lucky the large majority is worldwide,not EU, but all this “ four horsemen of the apocalypse as a prelude to the slaughter of the first born” does your cause no good.
I am afraid that is the truth, our gdp could fall by almost 10% and the country could break up, the stakes are that high
Christ , you're nuts
No that is the threat, it is about time we all realised it
Article 50 was the key one. Setting the clock running was the one thing which was wholly within the control of HMG. It was done without any concept of what the preferred end goal was. Indeed, that question has yet to be hammered out. We ought to be approaching the point of beginning to think about calling Article 50. Probably, post a Second Referendum or GE to determine what our intention actually is.
Triggering Article 50 with no agreed plan and the ridiculous red lines exacerbated a situation that had already been made virtually impossible by the promises made by the Bucanneers in the Conservative party during the referendum campaign.
The red lines were reasonable but they meant the outcome had to be Canada. As Europe have said all along. Had we spent the last two years planning for that we would be much further along. The problem was May wanted the red lines but didn't want what they meant.
May at least understands that a Canada deal would be disastrous for large parts of the economy. It does not deliver what we were promised: all the benefits of EU membership with none of the downsides.
If she didn't want Canada she shouldn't have set her red lines. One or the other.
Likewise. At the moment, intelligence, conviction and decisiveness utterly trump electability.
Looks like Gove's got some momentum, at least on PB.
Much as I respect his intelligence, if there is one Tory who would be near guaranteed to put Corbyn in No 10 it is Michael Gove
Wrong - that is May - or perhaps Hammond equal.
Corbyn will be in No. 10 because/or if there is a sea-change in politics. Enough people sick of austerity, local government cuts, UC fuck ups and housing shortage. Time for a reset type thinking (as Nick P has said many times), despite all the reservations about him personally and his weird commi friends.
I doubt it will matter who he faces.
Personally, the way I feel at the moment, I think UC has already lost the Tories the next election and it is already over. The Tory party seems to have no idea how bad this is going to be. I'm talking off the scale meltdown in key marginals they need to win.
How many working families in Mansfield are facing a £2K a year cut?
And those voters don't even know yet, because they don't spend all day following policy.
At least one bank that I know of is moving responsibility out of the UK and into the rEU. It isn't contingency, it's happening now and at pace. This year the responsibilities are transferred. Next year the budgets will be assigned over there and the jobs will follow.
Dominic Grieve on BBC news saying there must now be a second EU referendum
Well he would wouldn’t he? He’s an ultra.
As Aaron says: Lisbon. Our leaders totally screwed up by not doing what they said they would.
I think the failure to hold a refendum on Lisbon was the single biggest reason for us leaving the EU.
Moreover, until Lisbon there was no horrible A50, no agreed mechanism on leaving the EU, so if we'd left before Lisbon, or voted it down then left, we would have had a few years of boring bilateral negotiations between various capitals, and the EU would not have had any legal power over us
As has been observed many, many times, Article 50 is designed to give the EU all the power and the departing nation next to none.
If May hadn't been busy wanking off Paul Dacre into a cup this might have occurred to her too.
But you guys are right, the mistakes of the UK political class in making peace with the grand Eurofederalist project have been decades in the making. Once great fuckup after another.
Perhaps it should have occurred to Gordon Brown and David Miliband, since they were the ones that signed it?
The treaty of Lisbon is not an especially horrific document, but the manner in which the EU's ruling class drove its ratification certainly raised a lot of suspicion around what extent they were showing any regard for what national electorates thought.
The Tories, having never really recovered from the self-inflicted wounds over Maastricht, took this all very personally, and as the final and clinching proof that nothing anyone in Britain says will be allowed to get in the way of the Project.
And the (n)euroses have just metastasized ever since.
Likewise. At the moment, intelligence, conviction and decisiveness utterly trump electability.
Looks like Gove's got some momentum, at least on PB.
Much as I respect his intelligence, if there is one Tory who would be near guaranteed to put Corbyn in No 10 it is Michael Gove
Calm down HYUFD!
Corbyn is going nowhere near No 10. Even if Brexit is an unquestionably calamitous 'no deal', Corbyn's Momentum Party are utterly unelectable, even when confronted by the ridiculous Gove as PM.
Do not be so sure, they got 40% of the vote last time and could easily get in with SNP and LD support
Believe me with Corbyn, or son/daughter of Corbyn leading Labour you have 50 years of inch-perfect Conservative government ahead of you. I may see it more as 50 years of Tory chicanery and mismanagement.
We are where we are because we are a medium sized European country and the EU is one of the three blocs that dictate the terms of global trade. We never did hold all the cards. Our choice today is what it has always been: walking out with no deal or agreeing the terms the EU sets. It was just dishonest to pretend otherwise. And if we do the former we’ll end up doing the latter anyway.
As has been clear to anyone since before the referendum, who is the slightest bit informed.
It genuinely puzzles me people don’t get this. The EU will negotiate detail within the parameters it sets. We either accept that or we don’t. It was utterly dishonest and/or very stupid to ever claim otherwise. It will be similar if we ever end up negotiating with the Americans or Chinese, but at least with them we walk away to status quo, not to something a lot worse than we currently have.
Dominic Grieve on BBC news saying there must now be a second EU referendum
Well he would wouldn’t he? He’s an ultra.
As Aaron says: Lisbon. Our leaders totally screwed up by not doing what they said they would.
I think the failure to hold a refendum on Lisbon was the single biggest reason for us leaving the EU.
Moreover, until Lisbon there was no horrible A50, no agreed mechanism on leaving the EU, so if we'd left before Lisbon, or voted it down then left, we would have had a few years of boring bilateral negotiations between various capitals, and the EU would not have had any legal power over us
As has been observed many, many times, Article 50 is designed to give the EU all the power and the departing nation next to none.
If May hadn't been busy wanking off Paul Dacre into a cup this might have occurred to her too.
But you guys are right, the mistakes of the UK political class in making peace with the grand Eurofederalist project have been decades in the making. Once great fuckup after another.
Perhaps it should have occurred to Gordon Brown and David Miliband, since they were the ones that signed it?
The alternative to A50 is what?
Some stuff about the Treaty of Vienna, on treaties in general? Gives you the right to walk away if things have dramatically changed.
Either way, we leave and we are a Third Country under EU rules.
Starmer says Labour will be prepared to back 'a People's Vote' if they cannot get a general election if No Deal is the outcome of the negotiations
Has anyone told Jezza?
Yes, conference. This is the position conference agreed on. Corbyn has always deferred to the party democracy. It would be very difficult for him to do otherwise.
Likewise. At the moment, intelligence, conviction and decisiveness utterly trump electability.
Looks like Gove's got some momentum, at least on PB.
Much as I respect his intelligence, if there is one Tory who would be near guaranteed to put Corbyn in No 10 it is Michael Gove
Wrong - that is May - or perhaps Hammond equal.
Corbyn will be in No. 10 because/or if there is a sea-change in politics. Enough people sick of austerity, local government cuts, UC fuck ups and housing shortage. Time for a reset type thinking (as Nick P has said many times), despite all the reservations about him personally and his weird commi friends.
I doubt it will matter who he faces.
Personally, the way I feel at the moment, I think UC has already lost the Tories the next election and it is already over. The Tory party seems to have no idea how bad this is going to be. I'm talking off the scale meltdown in key marginals they need to win.
How many working families in Mansfield are facing a £2K a year cut?
And those voters don't even know yet, because they don't spend all day following policy.
It only really hits self employed people who use their accountants to minimise their tax liabilities. UC has a proviso that your self employment must meet the threshold of a national living wage before you are eligible for uc.
The sequencing isn't and wasn't in our control. Article 50 is simply a two year window to agree stuff on a simplified process. We don't have to agree it but then we wouldn't get what we really need, which is a transition, or more accurately an extension of the status quo after we leave.
Dominic Grieve on BBC news saying there must now be a second EU referendum
Well he would wouldn’t he? He’s an ultra.
As Aaron says: Lisbon. Our leaders totally screwed up by not doing what they said they would.
I think the failure to hold a refendum on Lisbon was the single biggest reason for us leaving the EU.
Moreover, until How I despise the europhiles: Major, Blair, Heseltine, Clark, Brown, all of them. They did this. I hope they are anally raped with red hot pokers in Hell.
Er, at the time you were declaring loudly on here that Lisbon had converted you to being a Europhile.
I do remember that... maybe just temporarily intoxicated on all the rich things that other European nations produce, from culture, cuisine and fine wine.
You can't find it, because it does not exist.
You certainly went through a ‘Reluctant Federalist’ phase, but who cares? Given you are a self-confessed bipolar alcoholic, I would think it natural that you regularly swing from one extreme to another.
Yes, I'll admit to all of that. But the emphasis was very much on RELUCTANT. I knew that Lisbon meant the end of Britain being a sovereign country that could leave without serious damage. I knew it put us in jail, and threw away the key. There was nothing I could do. I was entirely right: as we now see.
So I tried to adapt rather than being permanently tortured by the defeat. It lasted about a fortnight.
I am without question a bipiolar alcoholic who says contradictory things every six minutes, but the EU is one area where I have been pretty much consistent.
Old PB-ers will recall me as one of the first eurosceptics on this site. I was largely regarded as a lunatic for banging on about it, so much, way back then.
The result is that I am much better informed than most. I was writing about the horror of the EU Constitution in the Telegraph back in 2003, FFS. Fifteen years ago!
Dominic Grieve on BBC news saying there must now be a second EU referendum
Well he would wouldn’t he? He’s an ultra.
As Aaron says: Lisbon. Our leaders totally screwed up by not doing what they said they would.
I think the failure to hold a refendum on Lisbon was the single biggest reason for us leaving the EU.
Moreover, until Lisbon there was no horrible A50, no agreed mechanism on leaving the EU, so if we'd left before Lisbon, or voted it down then left, we would have had a few years of boring bilateral negotiations between various capitals, and the EU would not have had any legal power over us
As has been observed many, many times, Article 50 is designed to give the EU all the power and the departing nation next to none.
If May hadn't been busy wanking off Paul Dacre into a cup this might have occurred to her too.
But you guys are right, the mistakes of the UK political class in making peace with the grand Eurofederalist project have been decades in the making. Once great fuckup after another.
Perhaps it should have occurred to Gordon Brown and David Miliband, since they were the ones that signed it?
The alternative to A50 is what?
Some stuff about the Treaty of Vienna, on treaties in general? Gives you the right to walk away if things have dramatically changed.
Either way, we leave and we are a Third Country under EU rules.
How is it any different?
Well, if we'd vetoed Lisbon we might have got to a decent half-way house within the EU that a fair proportion of those who ultimately voted Leave could have lived with.
In terms of leaving, it is true that there was no clear path prior to Lisbon. But crucially there was no time-limited negotiation either, so had we had an In-Out referendum we would have not have been as structurally disadvantaged in the negotiation.
She was our Association Annual Dinner Speaker this year and very much a 'Leave means Leaver'.
However I see her more as the Tory Leader of the Opposition to PM Corbyn if that is the end result of the next general election than May's successor if she is forced out (which I still think unlikely)
Likewise. At the moment, intelligence, conviction and decisiveness utterly trump electability.
Looks like Gove's got some momentum, at least on PB.
Much as I respect his intelligence, if there is one Tory who would be near guaranteed to put Corbyn in No 10 it is Michael Gove
Calm down HYUFD!
Corbyn is going nowhere near No 10. Even if Brexit is an unquestionably calamitous 'no deal', Corbyn's Momentum Party are utterly unelectable, even when confronted by the ridiculous Gove as PM.
I think that is a lot of wishful thinking. He's damn close to No. 10 if things break down. Sure he still lost in 2017, but getting that many votes show he clearly is not utterly unelectable, and if the Tories descend more than him, which is a real possibility?
Likewise. At the moment, intelligence, conviction and decisiveness utterly trump electability.
Looks like Gove's got some momentum, at least on PB.
Much as I respect his intelligence, if there is one Tory who would be near guaranteed to put Corbyn in No 10 it is Michael Gove
Calm down HYUFD!
Corbyn is going nowhere near No 10. Even if Brexit is an unquestionably calamitous 'no deal', Corbyn's Momentum Party are utterly unelectable, even when confronted by the ridiculous Gove as PM.
Do not be so sure, they got 40% of the vote last time and could easily get in with SNP and LD support
Believe me with Corbyn, or son/daughter of Corbyn leading Labour you have 50 years of inch-perfect Conservative government ahead of you. I may see it more as 50 years of Tory chicanery and mismanagement.
Absolutely not, that is complacency of the highest order
A very good set of questions. The triggering of Article 50 without a clear plan was the critical mistake. But Leavers deludedly thought they held all the cards. The responsibility is primarily theirs.
Cameron had promised (threatened) people on multiple occasions that he'd trigger A50 the morning after the referendum - You can't blame Leave voters for the political class getting their dander up - They has to wait way longer than they expected during the referendum campaign as it was....
Thanks for confirming Leave supporters were unusually stupid.
And.... Winners! Don't forget that!
Indeed you did. Well done you. Outstanding victory.
Pause.
So... how's that working out then?
Looking at all the excellent economic indicators it's working out absolutely fine!
The problem is the political class who don't want to do what they've been told by the electorate... But that's not Leavers fault.
Likewise. At the moment, intelligence, conviction and decisiveness utterly trump electability.
Looks like Gove's got some momentum, at least on PB.
Much as I respect his intelligence, if there is one Tory who would be near guaranteed to put Corbyn in No 10 it is Michael Gove
Calm down HYUFD!
Corbyn is going nowhere near No 10. Even if Brexit is an unquestionably calamitous 'no deal', Corbyn's Momentum Party are utterly unelectable, even when confronted by the ridiculous Gove as PM.
Do not be so sure, they got 40% of the vote last time and could easily get in with SNP and LD support
Believe me with Corbyn, or son/daughter of Corbyn leading Labour you have 50 years of inch-perfect Conservative government ahead of you. I may see it more as 50 years of Tory chicanery and mismanagement.
Absolutely not, that is complacency of the highest order
Likewise. At the moment, intelligence, conviction and decisiveness utterly trump electability.
Looks like Gove's got some momentum, at least on PB.
Much as I respect his intelligence, if there is one Tory who would be near guaranteed to put Corbyn in No 10 it is Michael Gove
Calm down HYUFD!
Corbyn is going nowhere near No 10. Even if Brexit is an unquestionably calamitous 'no deal', Corbyn's Momentum Party are utterly unelectable, even when confronted by the ridiculous Gove as PM.
I think that is a lot of wishful thinking. He's damn close to No. 10 if things break down. Sure he still lost in 2017, but getting that many votes show he clearly is not utterly unelectable, and if the Tories descend more than him, which is a real possibility?
That's exactly what the Tories were joyously telling everyone who would listen when May was cruising for a three figure majority last spring too.
I am increasingly neutral on capital punishment. If we are happy to bomb and kill children, with drones, operated by some dude at a desk in Wiltshire, then I can cope with the state executing child murderers, following a fair trial.
Its interesting to compare the fuss over the killing of IRA terrorists in Gibraltar in the 1980s with the way we now kill British citizens (and anyone else who is unfortunate to get in the way) by drone in the Middle East nowadays.
Likewise. At the moment, intelligence, conviction and decisiveness utterly trump electability.
Looks like Gove's got some momentum, at least on PB.
Much as I respect his intelligence, if there is one Tory who would be near guaranteed to put Corbyn in No 10 it is Michael Gove
Calm down HYUFD!
Corbyn is going nowhere near No 10. Even if Brexit is an unquestionably calamitous 'no deal', Corbyn's Momentum Party are utterly unelectable, even when confronted by the ridiculous Gove as PM.
Do not be so sure, they got 40% of the vote last time and could easily get in with SNP and LD support
Believe me with Corbyn, or son/daughter of Corbyn leading Labour you have 50 years of inch-perfect Conservative government ahead of you. I may see it more as 50 years of Tory chicanery and mismanagement.
Absolutely not, that is complacency of the highest order
Corbyn is coming, unless something changes.
To my mind the Tories need to get something through the Commons which does not then lead to the breakup of the government or one which is in zombie form due to DUP opposition which refuses to VONC to spark a new election - they need time to recoup, stretch things out several more years.
A tall order right now. The alternatives to May are still peddling lines, in effect, about how easy things are, which is a bad sign.
Wait, is Lord Adonis actually alleging that Boris, Gove, JRM and Farage are all coke fiends?
Yes. Are they?
I'd believe it of Boris and Farage, possibly Gove, but I assume JRM amuses himself by forcing his captives in the cellar play Strauss waltzes whilst he screams "Mummy!" repeatedly in a rubber apron.
My God, Keir Starmer has the charisma of a damp slipper.
And he is the supposed saviour of Labour?!?!
I've only seen him in short clips, he came across as inherently a credible seeming chap (it's that middle aged white guy charm I guess), is he really that bad?
The UK has been strategically and structurally, outmaneuvered, outplayed, outgunned and outclassed at every stage of these increasingly-ludicrously-called "negotiations".
Article 50 certainly increases the EU's power to hold our feet to the fire, but our feet were ALWAYS in the fire.
The EU will always have the upper hand, A50 or no.
I find it good - very good - that the UK is *finally* starting to understand a few basic geopolitical realities, but it's a shame it took such much humiliation and political poison to get us to this point.
Wait, is Lord Adonis actually alleging that Boris, Gove, JRM and Farage are all coke fiends?
Yes. Are they?
I'd believe it of Boris and Farage, possibly Gove, but I assume JRM amuses himself by forcing his captives in the cellar play Strauss waltzes whilst he screams "Mummy!" repeatedly in a rubber apron.
That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. You think he'd force them to do it himself? The manservant would handle it.
Starmer says Labour will be prepared to back 'a People's Vote' if they cannot get a general election if No Deal is the outcome of the negotiations
Second referendum must be odds on now I think. Brexit is self-destructing.
It's one the few plays left open to May now. And still might not work, but if she makes a declaration of that being her intent it will be interesting to see how Labour and Tory rebels react.
At least one bank that I know of is moving responsibility out of the UK and into the rEU. It isn't contingency, it's happening now and at pace. This year the responsibilities are transferred. Next year the budgets will be assigned over there and the jobs will follow.
People are very complacent.
Would you tell us the name of this bank please.
Plus the total of jobs involved
There really has been some bollocks posted about what is actually happening
Wait, is Lord Adonis actually alleging that Boris, Gove, JRM and Farage are all coke fiends?
Yes. Are they?
I'd believe it of Boris and Farage, possibly Gove, but I assume JRM amuses himself by forcing his captives in the cellar play Strauss waltzes whilst he screams "Mummy!" repeatedly in a rubber apron.
Boris, I could see being a cokehead. Farage: maybe once, but it's not like he needs chemical assistance to be an arsehole.
Gove and JRM though? I bet the hardest substance JRM has ever touched is that time he bought chocolate digestives instead of plain.
The UK has been strategically and structurally, outmaneuvered, outplayed, outgunned and outclassed at every stage of these increasingly-ludicrously-called "negotiations".
Article 50 certainly increases the EU's power to hold our feet to the fire, but our feet were ALWAYS in the fire.
The EU will always have the upper hand, A50 or no.
I find it good - very good - that the UK is *finally* starting to understand a few basic geopolitical realities, but it's a shame it took such much humiliation and political poison to get us to this point.
But after a no deal we would be free to make our own way or cut our own throats. At present as you put so clearly - we are subservient to the EU.
My God, Keir Starmer has the charisma of a damp slipper.
And he is the supposed saviour of Labour?!?!
I've only seen him in short clips, he came across as inherently a credible seeming chap (it's that middle aged white guy charm I guess), is he really that bad?
Yes, he's that bad.
And I speak as a disenchanted rightwinger who would love to see Labour led by a new kind of Blair (without the cant and sans Iraq) someone with a bit of charisma and common sense. Anyone. Please. The Tories are so useless. If Labour could unite around a centre lefty with some vision and passion and the ability to convey this, I would abandon a lifetime habit and vote Labour.
But Starmer is truly dreadful.
Also Keir Starmer was responsible for the idiotic outrage that was the twitter joke trial.
Starmer *ruined a man's life for two fucking years* to see if it was possible to prosecute somebody for making a joke.
Well done Aaron. A very interesting header. If we're not yet completely f*cked we deserve to be. I went to the AGM of my apartment block yesterday. There was a Spanish lady an Irish lady an Italian four French and me and three of the people didn't speak any language but their own though between us we had it covered. It felt very cosmopolitan as it always does and there's nothing that fees better than being in a cosmopolitan enviroment.
I've no idea how who landed us in this craphole but I wish they could get us out
I've no idea how who landed us in this craphole but I wish they could get us out
The voters. Shunting it back to us to either accept something much more costly than hoped with eyes open, or cancelling the whole damn thing, may be the only way to get us at least half way out the hole, even though it won't see us all the way out.
If being tied to EU for longer is so anathema to them, then thank goodness that means May is surely gone before the start of next week, right? It would be preposterous if the vote threshold is not reached by the end of tomorrow, since even considering such an option is grounds to condemn her judgement, right?
I've no idea how who landed us in this craphole but I wish they could get us out
The voters. Shunting it back to us to either accept something much more costly than hoped with eyes open, or cancelling the whole damn thing, may be the only way to get us at least half way out the hole, even though it won't see us all the way out.
Well done Aaron. A very interesting header. If we're not yet completely f*cked we deserve to be. I went to the AGM of my apartment block yesterday. There was a Spanish lady an Irish lady an Italian four French and me and three of the people didn't speak any language but their own though between us we had it covered. It felt very cosmopolitan as it always does and there's nothing that fees better than being in a cosmopolitan enviroment.
Comments
Well said.
Gove would make no deal less likely while simultaneously making it less damaging if it did happen.
The whole of Lisbon should have gone down in flames, to be massively watered down when represented. But we were denied a say. So we and the EU are where we are and Lisbon was a big contribution to that situation.
Either that, or she is a chess playing genius with a zen-like calm who will somehow emerge in December with a deal.
I know which one I think is most likely.
FoM is a Maastricht thing. Single Market.
Corbyn is going nowhere near No 10. Even if Brexit is an unquestionably calamitous 'no deal', Corbyn's Momentum Party are utterly unelectable, even when confronted by the ridiculous Gove as PM.
Have a good nights rest everyone
Good night folks
Before he bravely ran away you mean
Apart from that I agree that we should have fought tooth and nail on sequencing; DD called that one right. Once that was agreed, we were well on the path to current troubles and humiliation.
Another vote for Gove (from a Remainer) he's a doer, has real intellectual clout and clarity of purpose and sees things through. Tories could do a lot worse, particularly if a true believer in Brexit is an essential requirement.
Says Labour will not allow 'the ripping up of our manufacturing base'
If May hadn't been busy wanking off Paul Dacre into a cup this might have occurred to her too.
But you guys are right, the mistakes of the UK political class in making peace with the grand Eurofederalist project have been decades in the making. Once great fuckup after another.
I doubt it will matter who he faces.
Personally, the way I feel at the moment, I think UC has already lost the Tories the next election and it is already over. The Tory party seems to have no idea how bad this is going to be. I'm talking off the scale meltdown in key marginals they need to win.
How many working families in Mansfield are facing a £2K a year cut?
And those voters don't even know yet, because they don't spend all day following policy.
Would you tell us the name of this bank please.
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1053044327004459009
The Tories, having never really recovered from the self-inflicted wounds over Maastricht, took this all very personally, and as the final and clinching proof that nothing anyone in Britain says will be allowed to get in the way of the Project.
And the (n)euroses have just metastasized ever since.
Some stuff about the Treaty of Vienna, on treaties in general? Gives you the right to walk away if things have dramatically changed.
Either way, we leave and we are a Third Country under EU rules.
How is it any different?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/23/brexit-corbyn-under-pressure-from-all-sides-over-peoples-vote
It only really hits self employed people who use their accountants to minimise their tax liabilities. UC has a proviso that your self employment must meet the threshold of a national living wage before you are eligible for uc.
In terms of leaving, it is true that there was no clear path prior to Lisbon. But crucially there was no time-limited negotiation either, so had we had an In-Out referendum we would have not have been as structurally disadvantaged in the negotiation.
However I see her more as the Tory Leader of the Opposition to PM Corbyn if that is the end result of the next general election than May's successor if she is forced out (which I still think unlikely)
The problem is the political class who don't want to do what they've been told by the electorate... But that's not Leavers fault.
Corbyn is coming, unless something changes.
He's a careerist wettie.
If MrsMay has lost the likes of him, her party fuel gauge is flashing amber.
A tall order right now. The alternatives to May are still peddling lines, in effect, about how easy things are, which is a bad sign.
I'd believe it of Boris and Farage, possibly Gove, but I assume JRM amuses himself by forcing his captives in the cellar play Strauss waltzes whilst he screams "Mummy!" repeatedly in a rubber apron.
Article 50 certainly increases the EU's power to hold our feet to the fire, but our feet were ALWAYS in the fire.
The EU will always have the upper hand, A50 or no.
I find it good - very good - that the UK is *finally* starting to understand a few basic geopolitical realities, but it's a shame it took such much humiliation and political poison to get us to this point.
There really has been some bollocks posted about what is actually happening
Gove and JRM though? I bet the hardest substance JRM has ever touched is that time he bought chocolate digestives instead of plain.
Starmer *ruined a man's life for two fucking years* to see if it was possible to prosecute somebody for making a joke.
C*nt.
I've no idea how who landed us in this craphole but I wish they could get us out
How nice for you!