So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
.
Hmm - Immigrants all they are good for are wiping UK bums. UK people they need jobs that offer "intellectual challenge."
Not at all. I was trying to give an example you might understand. Clearly the implications of Brexit are way beyond your ability to debate the issues. Skills mismatch can occur in many sectors of the economy. You may make glib references but the central point about an ageing workforce means less working people supporting more people who either cannot work or are too old to work. If the population is ageing and growing then there will be more demand for certain sectors of the economy that provide goods or services for these specific sectors whatever the general economic backdrop. The country will need migrants to fill the gap.
When economies contract some sectors or even companies are hit hard but others may experience a massive boost. I would say as an example after the financial crisis that Pound shops experienced growth whilst the rest of the economy was in dire straights due to a change in taste or a more price competitive environment replacing the status quo. Many skilled and unskilled jobs will need filling as the current workforce retires, dies or becomes unable to work.
O/T The President of Oxford University Conservatives appears to have no sense of irony:-
"The banning of members of the Bullingdon club from holding office in the association – a club banned by the university and who’s values and activities have no place in the modern Conservative Party – will I hope show that we are moving towards a more open, welcoming, and tolerant environment for all.”
Sean I can assure that the influence of those twats closes off the society, not opens it. Welcome the 1% and show 50% the door.
Well, they aren't my cup of tea, but I would have thought they'd be natural Tory supporters.
Any statements put out like that show the individual behind them to lack a pair of bollocks.
You don’t use blanket bans to make political points about who you are and who you are not, or want to be seen as, you show tolerance, respect and forgiveness by judging each individual case on its merits, and standing up to those who would bully you into trying to do something different.
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
Unfortunately I think that ships sailed . Barring an unlikely second EU ref the demise of the UK will be cemented. And amazingly a large majority of Leavers support the break up of the UK , the next time a Leaver accuses Remainers of not being patriotic they need to look in the mirror .
Indeed, I could never see how supporting Leave, leading to a smaller economy, less money to spend on the military and so on is being patriotic. My experience of Leave supporters is that many of them do not understand how Brexit will affect the economy, trade and investment. Furthermore the fact immigration is going to continue Brexit or not will not satisfy Leavers. People voted Leave for many different reasons and the prospectus they were sold were lies that people chose to believe. My view is Brexit should be cancelled and as a result austerity ended, with an effort to reinvigorate those lives that have been left behind economically in recent years.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive, and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who depsise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
Oh come on, you’re better than that. You can be proud of your nation within the EU. Ask the French.
It's not a purely financial transaction though. The improvement in air quality cannot be measured in £ easily, but it is a huge tangible benefit. A very short-sighted decision by the Government.
It really isn't, generally subsidies are used to get a market started, it's beyond dispute now that the EV and hybrid market has taken off.
We could now spend the money on other things to reduce emissions rather than subsidising vehicles that people want to buy. Building charging stations would be a much better use of funds.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
If the UK entered No Deal on the front foot, rather than being forced into it, with an aggressive policy posture it would pass without significant disruption.
I doubt that Sturgeon would do that , but even if she did the agreement of the Westminster Parliament would not be forthcoming.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
Goodness me.
.
Your last sentence has no knowledge of the Scots or Scots nationalism.
I have lived with Scots nationalism since I was at primary scool in Berwick on Tweed when Nicola's predecessor of the 1950s used to paint a white border across the Berwick border bridge announcing Berwick belonging to Scotland. It would be removed and she would come back
I have many Scots relatives who are ardent nationalists and if the UK takes Scotland out in a no deal exit your last sentence would be toast The anger in Scotland could well back Nicola in holding her own referendum. I see it increasingly on our families social media, with even unionist Scots wavering
You do set yourself up as an expert on so much but on this you know nothing of the Scots nature and their increasing anger towards the English
I can well imagine ardent nationalists taking that view - but not the average voter in Scotland. Most people throughout the UK - whether in Scotland, Wales, England or Northern Ireland - are heartily sick of Brexit. The major setback suffered by the SNP at the 2017 election was also clear evidence that so many there wish to move on from the Independence Referendum.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
If the UK entered No Deal on the front foot, rather than being forced into it, with an aggressive policy posture it would pass without significant disruption.
I doubt that Sturgeon would do that , but even if she did the agreement of the Westminster Parliament would not be forthcoming.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
Goodness me.
If there was no deal, Scotland cannot leave the UK. They would have to apply to join the EU which would take years and, of course, it would create a hard border between Scotland and England. Without access to the UK internal market, Scotland would be toast. Scottish independence is trumped by Brexit. It was only really viable when both parts were going to be in the EU. If Sturgeon ran off and held an illegal referendum, she would lose by a mile.
Your last sentence has no knowledge of the Scots or Scots nationalism.
I have lived with Scots nationalism since I was at primary scool in Berwick on Tweed when Nicola's predecessor of the 1950s used to paint a white border across the Berwick border bridge announcing Berwick belonging to Scotland. It would be removed and she would come back
I have many Scots relatives who are ardent nationalists and if the UK takes Scotland out in a no deal exit your last sentence would be toast The anger in Scotland could well back Nicola in holding her own referendum. I see it increasingly on our families social media, with even unionist Scots wavering
You do set yourself up as an expert on so much but on this you know nothing of the Scots nature and their increasing anger towards the English
I can well imagine ardent nationalists taking that view - but not the average voter in Scotland. Most people throughout the UK - whether in Scotland, Wales, England or Northern Ireland - are heartily sick of Brexit. The major setback suffered by the SNP at the 2017 election was also clear evidence that so many there wish to move on from the Independence Referendum.
Thank you for your incredible insight into the mind of the average Scottish voter.
A poor interpretation of project fear. Companies will not leave the UK - project fear predicted that there would be a huge exodus already - in fact almost nothing has happened.
Regulatory divergence will not lead to 'huge delays' at the border. It doesn't for non-EU imports now; why would it in future? After UFT has been in place for a year or so, the UK can get its customs set up (should have been done already) and EU imports will be treated with the same high level of efficiency we already apply to non-EU imports.
UK farmers don't really need tariff protection (that is reserved for EU farmers) and manufacturers really don't. But we can provide direct financial support for agriculture using the 40bn we don't need to give to Barnier. Agriculture is subsidised anyway.
All these issues are solvable given a competent Government. Shame your party cannot provide one.
Nothing has happened as we are still in the EU and the single market, if we leave the EU and the single market and with no transition period or FTA either there will be an exodus of multinational companies to the continent unless we take a drastic slash tax and spending and slash regulation agenda to keep them here and there is little appetite for the yet further austerity that would require from either Parliament or the voters, not that either have much appetite for No Deal anyway.
Of course regulatory divergence will lead to huge delays and a year before customs are set up means lorries trailing halfway back through Kent.
UK farmers do need tariff protection if they are not going to be deluded by cheap meat from the rest of the world undercutting them and as you say any savings we make from the EU will end up largely having to go on agricultural subsidies as a result.
LOL. UK agriculture makes up 0.6% of UK value added GDP. Total income was 5.4bn. We are hardly going to need all the Brexit bill money to sort that out.
Agriculture subsidies serve no purpose, Taking money from taxes and giving it to farmers producing uneconomic products.
Australia and New Zealand scrapped subsidies decades ago, there's no reason why British farmers couldn't cope either
Australia and New Zealand do not have zero tariffs on agricultural imports
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
As I have mentioned a few times, as the vote approached in the end I simply couldn't stomach being on the same side as the Remainers, whatever reservations I had about leaving the EU I was never going to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with such people.
Tories = dimwits! We are truly f*cked in this country by a bunch of political pygmies from all parties. The UK is dying and fast (thanks to our clueless political class!)
I heard that this morning and have some sympathy with the government
Presently EV are beyond a lot of peoples pockets and they are subsidising those better off to the tune of £4,500 per EV. To reduce it to £3,500 is fairer to tax payers, indeed maybe it should be reduced further
It's not a purely financial transaction though. The improvement in air quality cannot be measured in £ easily, but it is a huge tangible benefit. A very short-sighted decision by the Government.
No it is not.
The well off can afford EV without plundering the taxes of those who cannot afford EVs
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Your sarcasm is noted, but I am being sincere.
I'm not sure I see any other way out of this now. TMay's plan will be voted down, she may have to resign, but the Tories do not have any other Brexit plan which can command the Commons, whoever becomes leader.
Meanwhile the dire threat of Corbyn winning a GE and the Trots running the country means the Tories will not risk their feeble hold on government.
It is a complete impasse. In that situation giving the decision back to the people seems the only "solution"? Unless someone has another idea....
Abandon the negotiations. Put all Government efforts into preparing for a No Deal Brexit including making such arrangements with the EU are possible to mitigate issues. We are still six months out which is a good amount of time IF we could focus on what needs to be done, rather than wasting time chasing a deal which will never be agreed and ratified.
If the UK entered No Deal on the front foot, rather than being forced into it, with an aggressive policy posture it would pass without significant disruption. The Government could then go back to the EU and negotiate from a position of strength.
It woudn't, as the stock market and £ would crash through the floor the day after No Deal and Sturgeon would then call indyref2 the week after.
Unless the UK suddenly slashed tax to Singapore levels and spending too within 6 months there would be little way out of that to get the UK on the front foot
I doubt that Sturgeon would do that , but even if she did the agreement of the Westminster Parliament would not be forthcoming.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
Goodness me.
If there was no deal, Scotland cannot leave the UK. They would have to apply to join the EU which would take years and, of course, it would create a hard border between Scotland and England. Without access to the UK internal market, Scotland would be toast. Scottish independence is trumped by Brexit. It was only really viable when both parts were going to be in the EU. If Sturgeon ran off and held an illegal referendum, she would lose by a mile.
Keep closing your eyes and wishing hard enough and it might come true.
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
Unfortunately I think that ships sailed . Barring an unlikely second EU ref the demise of the UK will be cemented. And amazingly a large majority of Leavers support the break up of the UK , the next time a Leaver accuses Remainersmirror .
Indeed, I could never see how supporting Leave, leading to a smaller economy, less money to spend on the military and so on is being patriotic. My experience of Leave supporters is that many of them do not understand how Brexit will affect the economy, trade and investment. Furthermore the fact immigration is going to continue Brexit or not will not satisfy Leavers. People voted Leave for many different reasons and the prospectus they were sold were lies that people chose to believe. My view is Brexit should be cancelled and as a result austerity ended, with an effort to reinvigorate those lives that have been left behind economically in recent years.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive, and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who depsise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
Oh come on, you’re better than that. You can be proud of your nation within the EU. Ask the French.
I don’t doubt it, but what efforts did Remain make (or is making now) to win over right-wing and/or patriotic voters other than to tell them they’re dinosaurs and need to move on and forget England and the Empire?
Do you have any idea how that lands with exceptionally patriotic and proud people who love this country dearly, and everything it stands for and has achieved?
It woudn't, as the stock market and £ would crash through the floor the day after No Deal and Sturgeon would then call indyref2 the week after.
Unless the UK suddenly slashed tax to Singapore levels and spending too within 6 months there would be little way out of that to get the UK on the front foot
The pound crashed the day after the referendum. It recovered. These things don't matter. Sturgeon already called another indyref and it was ignored. After no deal Brexit, Scottish independence becomes practically impossible.
We don't need to slash taxes to 'Singapore levels'. We simply need to do exactly what Bariner told us - repeal the EU regulations that cost billions of pounds and give ourselves a huge comparative advantage, just like he said. Oh, and implement unilateral free trade for a year or two, eliminating tariffs on imports which will drive down input costs for UK producers and retailers.
The temporary fall in the £ after the EU referendum result would be a mere drop in the ocean compared to if there was No Deal. After No Deal Brexit Scotland may well vote for independence on the latest polls, not to mention even English voters would vote Remain in a pre March EU ref rather than No Deal on every poll that has asked the question.
Of course we would have to slash taxes to Singapore levels to prevent a mass exodus of companies from the UK and how can we repeal every EU regulation without leading to huge border delays and goods checks and restrictions of trade in services between the UK and EU?
Eliminating tariffs on imports meanwhile would potentially put British farmers out of business to compound the predicament we faced
I agree with you that No Deal would be VERY painful, though not Armageddon. It's worth avoiding if at all possible, but if it can't be avoided, we must grit our teeth and endure. We've been through worse.
I imagine the economy would take an immediate hit with a recession, a property crash, and a surge in unemployment. The £ would freefall. Etc.
The advantage is that we would be out out out. No £39bn, no obligations, entirely free. Ourselves alone.
We would have to rebuild a new country, but the EU would have no leverage. We could slash every tax and make speaking French a crime.
It would certainly be interesting. In the long term it might be very good for us.
The only way we could successfully survive No Deal Brexit is to become Singapore on Thames and there is not enough public support for that, as mentioned below we could end up Caracas on Thames instead
I don't think criticism from Trump would damage Corbyn one iota - I rather suspect he would welcome it! I am not a Corbynite - and will not be voting Labour at the next election for unrelated reasons - but I have little doubt that such is the contempt for Trump in the UK that any leader who appears to antagonise him will enjoy enhanced popularity with the public at large.
If Trump wanted to ensure Corbyn never held office he should enthusiastically endorse him, pointing out how similar their backgrounds and programmes are and how much he admires Corbyn's principled stand on sticking up for his friends and fat cat cronies against ordinary people.
It would see Corbyn slip somewhere behind the Yorkshire Christian Socialist Revolution for Ripon Only Party in the national polls.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Your sarcasm is noted, but I am being sincere.
I'm not sure I see any other way out of this now. TMay's plan will be voted down, she may have to resign, but the Tories do not have any other Brexit plan which can command the Commons, whoever becomes leader.
Meanwhile the dire threat of Corbyn winning a GE and the Trots running the country means the Tories will not risk their feeble hold on government.
It is a complete impasse. In that situation giving the decision back to the people seems the only "solution"? Unless someone has another idea....
Abandon the negotiations. Put all Government efforts into preparing for a No Deal Brexit including making such arrangements with the EU are possible to mitigate issues. We are still six months out which is a good amount of time IF we coutrength.
It woudn't, as the stock market and £ would crash through the floor the day after No Deal and Sturgeon would then call indyref2 the week after.
Unless the UK suddenly slashed tax to Singapore levels and spending too within 6 months there would be little way out of that to get the UK on the front foot
I doubt that Sturgeon would do that , but even if she did the agreement of the Westminster Parliament would not be forthcoming.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
The Hard Brexiteers have a point that No Deal Brexit makes indy even more problematic for Sturgeon, even as it makes it emotionally more desirable. If the UK breaks entirely with the EU then an indy Scotland would be exiting its Single Market and Customs Union with England to rejoin (in time) the relatively and economically less important EU.
Is that really going to be so popular? Would it win a vote? Is it even economically feasible? What about the currency, deficit, etc?
After No Deal an indy Scotland could be in an awful constitutional limbo, for quite a while, with terrible fiscal problems to boot. Hmm.
The Scots nats will just say they will have all the oil and renewables to see them through, economically it would be just as tough for them if not more but emotionally the Scots could well decide to go their own way rather than stay in a UK completely divorced from continental Europe
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
.
Hmm - Immigrants all they are good for are wiping UK bums. UK people they need jobs that offer "intellectual challenge."
When economies contract some sectors or even companies are hit hard but others may experience a massive boost. I would say as an example after the financial crisis that Pound shops experienced growth whilst the rest of the economy was in dire straights due to a change in taste or a more price competitive environment replacing the status quo. Many skilled and unskilled jobs will need filling as the current workforce retires, dies or becomes unable to work.
When the GFC happened we had 2.6 million unemployed. if we were not part of the EU when this happened we would have had a choice retrain people here to work and get the unemployment down or get qualified immigrants in. Getting unemployment down quicker is both morally correct and better for The Treasury so the country is better off. Leaving 2.6 million unemployed and using immigrant labour to fulfil the new jobs created is not sensible.
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive, and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who depsise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
It never ceases to amaze me how people like you respond to the objections of those who think Brexit is a fools paradise. You simply don't have the intellectual arguments to counter the problems Brexit will create. You try and laugh it off or make some petty excuse. Brexit has been shown to be economically detrimental to the UK's standing. This will have consequences for military and foreign policy. Some candour by people like yourself on the subject would be welcome as you seem to have a mental disturbance that all will be well despite the potential for industrial collapse and so on.
I am a very patriotic person, however I think the UK will have a stronger economy in the EU with greater strength in foreign policy, military policy and economic dynamism than Brexit offers. You are stuck in the past and Brexit will not enable a rejuvenation of power rather a diminution of power.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Your sarcasm is noted, but I am being sincere.
I'm not sure I see any other way out of this now. TMay's plan will be voted down, she may have to resign, but the Tories do not have any other Brexit plan which can command the Commons, whoever becomes leader.
Meanwhile the dire threat of Corbyn winning a GE and the Trots running the country means the Tories will not risk their feeble hold on government.
It is a complete impasse. In that situation giving the decision back to the people seems the only "solution"? Unless someone has another idea....
Abandon the negotiations. Put all Government efforts into preparing for a No Deal Brexit including making such arrangements with the EU are possible to mitigate issues. We are still six months out which is a good amount of time IF we could focus on what needs to be done, rather than wasting time chasing a deal which will never be agreed and ratified.
If the UK entered No Deal on the front foot, rather than being forced into it, with an aggressive policy posture it would pass without significant disruption. The Government could then go back to the EU and negotiate from a position of strength.
It woudn't, as the stock marketd tax to Singapore levels and spending too within 6 months there would be little way out of that to get the UK on the front foot
I doubt that Sturgeon would do that , but even if she did the agreement of the Westminster Parliament would not be forthcoming.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
Goodness me.
If there was no deal, Scotland cannot leave the UK. They would have to apply to join the EU which would take years and, of course, it would create a hard border between Scotland and England. Without access to the UK internal market, Scotland would be toast. Scottish independence is trumped by Brexit. It was only really viable when both parts were going to be in the EU. If Sturgeon ran off and held an illegal referendum, she would lose by a mile.
Not true, Survation on Sunday had Yes to independence ahead 52% to 48% in Scotland if No Deal albeit Panelbase had No ahead 52% to 48% if No Deal that is still significantly closer than it was in 2014
Tories = dimwits! We are truly f*cked in this country by a bunch of political pygmies from all parties. The UK is dying and fast (thanks to our clueless political class!)
I heard that this morning and have some sympathy with the government
Presently EV are beyond a lot of peoples pockets and they are subsidising those better off to the tune of £4,500 per EV. To reduce it to £3,500 is fairer to tax payers, indeed maybe it should be reduced further
It's not a purely financial transaction though. The improvement in air quality cannot be measured in £ easily, but it is a huge tangible benefit. A very short-sighted decision by the Government.
Which would be true if all our days had about half our energy from renewables,* and lithium was not needed for the car batteries.
You need to think of how the power is generated and stored, as well as where the crud comes out.
*is this the first day ever where a green source has been our single largest supplier of power?
Your last sentence has no knowledge of the Scots or Scots nationalism.
I have lived with Scots nationalism since I was at primary scool in Berwick on Tweed when Nicola's predecessor of the 1950s used to paint a white border across the Berwick border bridge announcing Berwick belonging to Scotland. It would be removed and she would come back
I have many Scots relatives who are ardent nationalists and if the UK takes Scotland out in a no deal exit your last sentence would be toast The anger in Scotland could well back Nicola in holding her own referendum. I see it increasingly on our families social media, with even unionist Scots wavering
You do set yourself up as an expert on so much but on this you know nothing of the Scots nature and their increasing anger towards the English
If the Scots want to hold a legal referendum and want to leave the UK, I am perfectly happy to accept their decision. But the facts are that Scotland is economically terribly weak and they would not survive behind a hard border with England, especially with the loss of UK financial support.
Obviously as a Leaver I support the fact that people will make decisions on grounds that are not always based wholly on economics. If I was a Scot I would probably be pro-independence (but realising that with Scotland's embrace of socialism economic success is highly unlikely). But Scotland voted to remain primarily because the SNP lost the economic argument over independence and that argument looks a whole lot worse with a hard border, the Euro and at least five years in limbo waiting to rejoin the EU.
With respect, you are taking a sample of ardent nationalists who one presumes would vote for independence anyway. 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. The general view seems to be that Scots don't want another referendum because views have not really changed.
So no, I don't think there is any evidence that Scotland would vote for independence in these circumstances and I think given the obvious influence of economic factors last time, they would lose by a much bigger margin than before. I don't claim to be an expert on Scotland, but I am entitled to a view based on evidence which is widely available.
I would modify my view by saying that in an illegal referendum, I expect the Unionists would boycott so maybe she would win that way but the result would be ignored.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
Goodness me.
.
Your last sentence has no knowledge of the Scots or Scots nationalism.
I have lived with Scots nationalism since I was at primary scool in Berwick on Tweed when Nicola's predecessor of the 1950s used to paint a white border across the Berwick border bridge announcing Berwick belonging to Scotland. It would be removed and she would come back
I have many Scots relatives who are ardent nationalists and if the UK takes Scotland out in a no deal exit your last sentence would be toast The anger in Scotland could well back Nicola in holding her own referendum. I see it increasingly on our families social media, with even unionist Scots wavering
You do set yourself up as an expert on so much but on this you know nothing of the Scots nature and their increasing anger towards the English
I can well imagine ardent nationalists taking that view - but not the average voter in Scotland. Most people throughout the UK - whether in Scotland, Wales, England or Northern Ireland - are heartily sick of Brexit. The major setback suffered by the SNP at the 2017 election was also clear evidence that so many there wish to move on from the Independence Referendum.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar with the electoral history of Scotland stretching back to the days of Gladstone. Social media has no interest for me at all .It is though a mistake to assume that any personal experience is somehow typical. I also say to you that as a left of centre person I would not hesitate to vote Tory rather than SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Your sarcasm is noted, but I am being sincere.
I'm not sure I see any other way out of this now. TMay's plan will be voted down, she may have to resign, but the Tories do not have any other Brexit plan which can command the Commons, whoever becomes leader.
Meanwhile the dire threat of Corbyn winning a GE and the Trots running the country means the Tories will not risk their feeble hold on government.
It is a complete impasse. In that situation giving the decision back to the people seems the only "solution"? Unless someone has another idea....
Abandon the negotiations. Put all Government efforts into preparing for a No Deal Brexit including making such arrangements with the EU are possible to mitigate issues. We are still six months out which is a good amount of time IF we could focus on what needs to be done, rather than wasting time chasing a deal which will never be agreed and ratified.
If the UK entered No Deal on the front foot, rather than being forced into it, with an aggressive policy posture it would pass without significant disruption. The Government could then go back to the EU and negotiate from a position of strength.
It woudn't, as the stock market and £ wingapore levels and spending too within 6 months there would be little way out of that to get the UK on the front foot
I doubt that Sturgeon would do that , but even if she did the agreement of the Westminster Parliament would not be forthcoming.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
Sturgeon would have more sense than to do that. Such a vote would be declared unlawful and probably boycotted by the Unionist supporters in Scotland.It would create a crisis - but one that is unlikely to rebound to the advantage of the SNP. Throughout the UK people are largely sick to death of Brexit - and in Scotland most voters have had enough of the Independence debate for years to come. The idea that after the extended trauma of Brexit that the Scottish electorate would happily embark on a further constitutional debate - with all the divisions that come with it - is frankly very counter -intuitive.
The well off can afford EV without plundering the taxes of those who cannot afford EVs
The scheme probably made more sense when it was susidising runabouts for eco-warriors, but it is now subsidising a lot of what are essentially luxury cars.
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
Unfortunately I think that ships sailed . Barring an unlikely second EU ref the demise of the UK will be cemented. And amazingly a large majority of Leavers support the break up of the UK , the next time a Leaver accuses Remainersmirror .
Indeed, I could never see how supporting Leave, leading to a smaller economy, less money to spend on the military and so on is being patriotic. My experience of Leave supporters is that many of them do not understand how Brexit will affect the economy, trade and investment. Furthermore the fact immigration is going to continue Brexit or not will not satisfy Leavers. People voted Leave for many different reasons and the prospectus they were sold were lies that people chose to believe. My view is Brexit should be cancelled and as a result austerity ended, with an effort to reinvigorate those lives that have been left behind economically in recent years.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as
H
Oh come on, you’re better than that. You can be proud of your nation within the EU. Ask the French.
I don’t doubt it, but what efforts did Remain make (or is making now) to win over right-wing and/or patriotic voters other than to tell them they’re dinosaurs and need to move on and forget England and the Empire?
Do you have any idea how that lands with exceptionally patriotic and proud people who love this country dearly, and everything it stands for and has achieved?
You can be patriotic, proud, left-wing and even vote remain.
A poor interpretation of project fear. Companies will not leave the UK - project fear predicted that there would be a huge exodus already - in fact almost nothing has happened.
Regulatory divergence will not lead to 'huge delays' at the border. It doesn't for non-EU imports now; why would it in future? After UFT has been in place for a year or so, the UK can get its customs set up (should have been done already) and EU imports will be treated with the same high level of efficiency we already apply to non-EU imports.
UK farmers don't really need tariff protection (that is reserved for EU farmers) and manufacturers really don't. But we can provide direct financial support for agriculture using the 40bn we don't need to give to Barnier. Agriculture is subsidised anyway.
All these issues are solvable given a competent Government. Shame your party cannot provide one.
Nothing has happened as we are still in the EU and the single market, if we leave the EU and the single market and with no transition period or FTA either there will be an exodus of multinational companies to the continent unless we take a drastic slash tax and spending and slash regulation agenda to keep them here and there is little appetite for the yet further austerity that would require from either Parliament or the voters, not that either have much appetite for No Deal anyway.
Of course regulatory divergence will lead to huge delays and a year before customs are set up means lorries trailing halfway back through Kent.
UK farmers do need tariff protection if they are not going to be deluded by cheap meat from the rest of the world undercutting them and as you say any savings we make from the EU will end up largely having to go on agricultural subsidies as a result.
LOL. UK agriculture makes up 0.6% of UK value added GDP. Total income was 5.4bn. We are hardly going to need all the Brexit bill money to sort that out.
Which will become a larger proportion given the damage leaving the single market with no transition period and no FTA will do to UK financial services and manufacturing industry
Not true, Survation on Sunday had Yes to independence ahead 52% to 48% in Scotland if No Deal albeit Panelbase had No ahead 52% to 48% if No Deal that is still significantly closer than it was in 2014
You love your polls! But polls on hypotheticals are unreliable - they are just a virtual protest vote. People said they would elect May with a large majority until they actually had to do it.
Not true, Survation on Sunday had Yes to independence ahead 52% to 48% in Scotland if No Deal albeit Panelbase had No ahead 52% to 48% if No Deal that is still significantly closer than it was in 2014
You love your polls! But polls on hypotheticals are unreliable - they are just a virtual protest vote. People said they would elect May with a large majority until they actually had to do it.
May got the 42% she polled before the election was called, all that happened was Corbyn squeezed the minor parties vote behind him
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
Goodness me.
.
Your last sentence has no knowledge of the Scots or Scots nationalism.
I have lived with Scots nationalism since I was at primary scool in Berwick on Tweed when Nicola's predecessor of the 1950s used to paint a white border across the Berwick border bridge announcing Berwick belonging to Scotland. It would be removed and she would come back
I have many Scots relatives who are ardent nationalists and if the UK takes Scotland out in a no deal exit your last sentence would be toast The anger in Scotland could well back Nicola in holding her own referendum. I see it increasingly on our families social media, with even unionist Scots wavering
You do set yourself up as an expert on so much but on this you know nothing of the Scots nature and their increasing anger towards the English
I can well imagine ardent nationalists takingo move on from the Independence Referendum.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar with the electoral history of Scotland stretching back to the days of Gladstone. Social media has no interest for me at all .It is though a mistake to assume that any personal experience is somehow typical. I also say to you that as a left of centre person I would not hesitate to vote Tory rather than SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
That staunch commitment to the Union though is rare in Scots under 60, they will not automatically back the Union if they think it goes against their and Scotland's interests
Which will become a larger proportion given the damage leaving the single market with no transition period and no FTA will do to UK financial services and manufacturing industry
Michel Barnier says you are wrong. He says that the UK diverging from EU regulations will provide us with a massive competitive advantage and make us billions.
If he really thought that divergence was such a problem for the UK surely he would be begging us to leave on CETA tomorrow, rather than trying to lock us in the CU and SM forever....
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Your sarcasm is noted, but I am being sincere.
I'm not sure I see any other way out of this now. TMay's plan will be voted down, she may have to resign, but the Tories do not have any other Brexit plan which can command the Commons, whoever becomes leader.
Meanwhile the dire threat of Corbyn winning a GE and the Trots running the country means the Tories will not risk their feeble hold on government.
It is a complete impasse. In that situation giving the decision back to the people seems the only "solution"? Unless someone has another idea....
It woudn't, as the stock market and £ wingapore levels and spending too within 6 months there would be little way out of that to get the UK on the front foot
I doubt that Sturgeon would do that , but even if she did the agreement of the Westminster Parliament would not be forthcoming.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
Sturgeon would have more sense than to do that. Such a vote would be declared unlawful and probably boycotted by the Unionist supporters in Scotland.It would create a crisis - but one that is unlikely to rebound to the advantage of the SNP. Throughout the UK people are largely sick to death of Brexit - and in Scotland most voters have had enough of the Independence debate for years to come. The idea that after the extended trauma of Brexit that the Scottish electorate would happily embark on a further constitutional debate - with all the divisions that come with it - is frankly very counter -intuitive.
Not what the polls say
Hypothetical poll questions whether concerning party leaders or a Brexit/Independence scenario are not likely to be reliable - and should certainly not be taken at face value. Keiran Pedley's recent Podcast re-Scotland made that very point.
Your last sentence has no knowledge of the Scots or Scots nationalism.
I have lived with Scots nationalism since I was at primary scool in Berwick on Tweed when Nicola's predecessor of the 1950s used to paint a white border across the Berwick border bridge announcing Berwick belonging to Scotland. It would be removed and she would come back
I have many Scots relatives who are ardent nationalists and if the UK takes Scotland out in a no deal exit your last sentence would be toast The anger in Scotland could well back Nicola in holding her own referendum. I see it increasingly on our families social media, with even unionist Scots wavering
You do set yourself up as an expert on so much but on this you know nothing of the Scots nature and their increasing anger towards the English
If the Scots want to hold a legal referendum and want to leave the UK, I am perfectly happy to accept their decision. But the facts are that Scotland is economically terribly weak and they would not survive behind a hard border with England, especially with the loss of UK financial support.
Obviously as a Leaver I support the fact that people will make decisions on grounds that are not always based wholly on economics. If I was a Scot I would probably be pro-independence (but realising that with Scotland's embrace of socialism economic success is highly unlikely). But Scotland voted to remain primarily because the SNP lost the economic argument over independence and that argument looks a whole lot worse with a hard border, the Euro and at least five years in limbo waiting to rejoin the EU.
With respect, you are taking a sample of ardent nationalists who one presumes would vote for independence anyway. 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. The general view seems to be that Scots don't want another referendum because views have not really changed.
So no, I don't think there is any evidence that Scotland would vote for independence in these circumstances and I think given the obvious influence of economic factors last time, they would lose by a much bigger margin than before. I don't claim to be an expert on Scotland, but I am entitled to a view based on evidence which is widely available.
I would modify my view by saying that in an illegal referendum, I expect the Unionists would boycott so maybe she would win that way but the result would be ignored.
The important part of your comment is that you do not claim to be an expert on Scotland but then you disreard my near lifetime knowlege of Gods own Country wth real time daily interaction with my extensive Scottish family.
Believe you me if the English take Scotland into a no deal economy there will be a price to pay
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders, and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who despise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
If I may. The concept that Leave=patriotic and Remain=nonpatriotic doesn't hold water. Goodwin's three tribes of Leave (the poor, the retired, the wealthy social conservatives) differ in their degrees of patriotism (poor yes, retired ish, WSC poorly). And as for the institutions, pillars such as the BBC, the Union, the Monarchy and actually living here have received criticism from Leave as well as Remain: consider the number of Leavers who are willing to discard Scotland and Northern Ireland on a whim, or who choose to declaim their patriotism at a great distance. Even you considered living in Calgary at some point.
Patriotism is not just a flag or virtue signalling, it's a committment. Contrary to what some people think, it's not just an identity to be put on or sloughed off when convenient. Taxes have to be paid, schools built, children educated, the ill tended and the dead buried. And Remainers do so as well as Leave.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
Goodness me.
.
Your last sentence has no knowledge of the Scots or Scots nationalism.
I have lived with Scots nationalism since I was at primary scool in Berwick on Tweed when Nicola's predecessor of the 1950s used to paint a white border across the Berwick border bridge announcing Berwick belonging to Scotland. It would be removed and she would come back
I have many Scots relatives who are ardent nationalists and if the UK takes Scotland out in a no deal exit your last sentence would be toast The anger in Scotland could well back Nicola in holding her own referendum. I see it increasingly on our families social media, with even unionist Scots wavering
You do set yourself up as an expert on so much but on this you know nothing of the Scots nature and their increasing anger towards the English
I can well imagine ardent nationalists taking that view - but not the average voter in Scotland. Most people throughout the UK - whether in Scotland, Wales, England or Northern Ireland - are heartily sick of Brexit. The major setback suffered by the SNP at the 2017 election was also clear evidence that so many there wish to move on from the Independence Referendum.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar with the electoral history of Scotland stretching back to the days of Gladstone. Social media has no interest for me at all .It is though a mistake to assume that any personal experience is somehow typical. I also say to you that as a left of centre person I would not hesitate to vote Tory rather than SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
The SNP in Scotland have stepped into labours place and in Scotland, as I have said before, I would vote SNP to keep out a labour candidate
If the Scots want to hold a legal referendum and want to leave the UK, I am perfectly happy to accept their decision. But the facts are that Scotland is economically terribly weak and they would not survive behind a hard border with England, especially with the loss of UK financial support.
Obviously as a Leaver I support the fact that people will make decisions on grounds that are not always based wholly on economics. If I was a Scot I would probably be pro-independence (but realising that with Scotland's embrace of socialism economic success is highly unlikely). But Scotland voted to remain primarily because the SNP lost the economic argument over independence and that argument looks a whole lot worse with a hard border, the Euro and at least five years in limbo waiting to rejoin the EU.
With respect, you are taking a sample of ardent nationalists who one presumes would vote for independence anyway. 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. The general view seems to be that Scots don't want another referendum because views have not really changed.
So no, I don't think there is any evidence that Scotland would vote for independence in these circumstances and I think given the obvious influence of economic factors last time, they would lose by a much bigger margin than before. I don't claim to be an expert on Scotland, but I am entitled to a view based on evidence which is widely available.
I would modify my view by saying that in an illegal referendum, I expect the Unionists would boycott so maybe she would win that way but the result would be ignored.
The important part of your comment is that you do not claim to be an expert on Scotland but then you disreard my near lifetime knowlege of Gods own Country wth real time daily interaction with my extensive Scottish family.
Believe you me if the English take Scotland into a no deal economy there will be a price to pay
Well since I think the no deal economy will be a great success, perhaps we will agree that in this case the price will be paid by the SNP? OK, maybe not!
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
Unfortunately I think that ships sailed . Barring an unlikely second EU ref the demise of the UK will be cemented. And amazingly a large majority of Leavers support the break up of the UK , the next time a Leaver accuses Remainersmirror .
Indeed, I could never see how supporting Leave, leading to a smaller economy, less money to spend on the military and so on is being patriotic. My experience of Leave supporters is that many of them do not understand how Brexit will affect the economy, trade and investment. Furthermore the fact immigration is going to continue Brexit or not will not satisfy Leavers. People voted Leave for many different reasons and the prospectus they were sold were lies that people chose to believe. My view is Brexit should be cancelled and as a result austerity ended, with an effort to reinvigorate those lives that have been left behind economically in recent years.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive, and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who depsise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
Oh come on, you’re better than that. You can be proud of your nation within the EU. Ask the French.
I don’t doubt it, but what efforts did Remain make (or is making now) to win over right-wing and/or patriotic voters other than to tell them they’re dinosaurs and need to move on and forget England and the Empire?
Do you have any idea how that lands with exceptionally patriotic and proud people who love this country dearly, and everything it stands for and has achieved?
Leave is the vehicle of English nationalism and Leave is driving English nationalism straight into a wall.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
Unfortunately I think that ships sailed . Barring an unlikely second EU ref the demise of the UK will be cemented. And amazingly a large majority of Leavers support the break up of the UK , the next time a Leaver accuses Remainersmirror .
Indeed, I could never see how supporting Leave, leading to a smaller economy, less money to spend on the military and so on is being patriotic. My experience of Leave supporters is that many of them do not understand how Brexit will affect the economy, trade and investment. Furthermore the fact immigration is going to continue Brexit or not will not satisfy Leavers. People voted Leave for many different reasons and the prospectus they were sold were lies that people chose to believe. My view is Brexit should be cancelled and as a result austerity ended, with an effort to reinvigorate those lives that have been left behind economically in recent years.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive, and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who depsise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
Oh come on, you’re better than that. You can be proud of your nation within the EU. Ask the French.
I don’t doubt it, but what efforts did Remain make (or is making now) to win over right-wing and/or patriotic voters other than to tell them they’re dinosaurs and need to move on and forget England and the Empire?
Do you have any idea how that lands with exceptionally patriotic and proud people who love this country dearly, and everything it stands for and has achieved?
Leave is the vehicle of English nationalism and Leave is driving English nationalism straight into a wall.
The most important poll about Scottish Indy is that by a huge margin the people of Scotland think that Holyrood should have final say on whether there is a Referendum or not. Big_G is right, Westminster blocking IndyRef2 would be a catastrophic mistake for Unionists.
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
Tories = dimwits! We are truly f*cked in this country by a bunch of political pygmies from all parties. The UK is dying and fast (thanks to our clueless political class!)
The grants are being reduced not scrapped. You can't subsidise cars permanently. Now EVs are achieving some scale, manufacturers/customers have to pay more of the economic cost.
If you look at the product roadmaps for almost all auto manufacturers it's hard to see why any subsidy is needed. Hyrbids and EVs will be the norm a lot sooner than people seem to think.
And I'm damned if I can figure out why my neighbours deserve a subsidy to buy a Tesla Model S.
Indeed if you can afford Hybrid you don't need a subsidy at all. If you buy a full EV you need your head examining unless you 're just putting it in the drive for show.
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
The Ultra extreme line of acting on a manifesto comittment?
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
Of course the UK Government could follow the Spanish government line over Catalonia ie suspend the Scottish Parliament and force Sturgeon and the executive into exile and send armed police to crack down on nationalists but at the same time as we would be dealing with mass protests from Remainers furious over No Deal Brexit we would be heading to a near civil war rather than the prosperous, successful Brexit Leavers promised
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
You just do not get it.
English suggestions Holyrood is suspended is an arrogance of mind numbing proportions
Scotland needs to be part of the Union with an extensive and generous devolution of powers to Holyrood
As Alastair just said
'leave is driving English nationalism straight into the wall'
Brextremists: " The British Empire was mostly a good thing for all involved" Also Brextremists: " A customs Union backstop would be a betrayal of the nation and reduce us to a colony of the EU which is unacceptable"
Which will become a larger proportion given the damage leaving the single market with no transition period and no FTA will do to UK financial services and manufacturing industry
Michel Barnier says you are wrong. He says that the UK diverging from EU regulations will provide us with a massive competitive advantage and make us billions.
If he really thought that divergence was such a problem for the UK surely he would be begging us to leave on CETA tomorrow, rather than trying to lock us in the CU and SM forever....
When has he ever said that? We know however the heads of JP Morgan and Nissan and Toyota etc have all threatened to shift operations to the continent if we leave the single market without a transition period
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
Would Westminster wish to take the ultra extreme line of suspending a democratically elected Parliament? Stormont '72 was hardly comparable. That was done to de-escalate the situation. This would be to escalate it up to 11.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Which risks her holding indyref2 anyway and then declaring UDI if she wins it and Westminster refuses to recognise the result, creating our very own Catalonia crisis at the same time as No Deal Brexit
Goodness me.
.
Your last sentence has no knowledge of the Scots or Scots nationalism.
I have lived with Scots nationalism since I was at primary scool in Berwick on Tweed when Nicola's predecessor of the 1950s used to paint a white border across the Berwick border bridge announcing Berwick belonging to Scotland. It would be removed and she would come back
I have many Scots relatives who are ardent nationalists and if the UK takes Scotland out in a no deal exit your last sentence would be toast The anger in Scotland could well back Nicola in holding her own referendum. I see it increasingly on our families social media, with even unionist Scots wavering
You do set yourself up as an expert on so much but on this you know nothing of the Scots nature and their increasing anger towards the English
I can well imagine ardent nationalists takingo move on from the Independence Referendum.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar with the electoral history of Scotland stretching back to the days of Gladstone. Social media has no interest for me at all .It is though a mistake to assume that any personal experience is somehow typical. I also say to you that as a left of centre person I would not hesitate to vote Tory rather than SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
That staunch commitment to the Union though is rare in Scots under 60, they will not automatically back the Union if they think it goes against their and Scotland's interests
It's geographic though, in the central belt, there is still a large number of firm protestant unionists.
Apparently a video of Nigel Farage has gone viral in Malaysia. It shows him speaking in front of a backdrop which says UKIPUKIPUKIPUKIPUKIPUKIPUKIP. It appears that puki means vagina. And to add to injury faraj means the same in one of the dialects used in the country.
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
Of course the UK Government could follow the Spanish government line over Catalonia ie suspend the Scottish Parliament and force Sturgeon and the executive into exile and send armed police to crack down on nationalists but at the same time as we would be dealing with mass protests from Remainers furious over No Deal Brexit we would be heading to a near civil war rather than the prosperous, successful Brexit Leavers promised
Indeed if you can afford Hybrid you don't need a subsidy at all. If you buy a full EV you need your head examining unless you 're just putting it in the drive for show.
I have no problem with anybody buying any kind of low emission vehicle, and good for those who do so. I'm merely skeptical that we need to subsidise cars that are in demand not so much for the ecological credentials but because they are desirable status-symbols. As I said up thread, the scheme probably made sense at some point in the past, but with the likes of Tesla, BMW, and Jaguar now benefitting from subsidy that is no longer the case.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Goodness me.
.
I can well imagine ardent nationalists taking that view - but not the average voter in Scotland. Most people throughout the UK - whether in Scotland, Wales, England or Northern Ireland - are heartily sick of Brexit. The major setback suffered by the SNP at the 2017 election was also clear evidence that so many there wish to move on from the Independence Referendum.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar with the electoral history of Scotland stretching back to the days of Gladstone. Social media has no interest for me at all .It is though a mistake to assume that any personal experience is somehow typical. I also say to you that as a left of centre person I would not hesitate to vote Tory rather than SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
The SNP in Scotland have stepped into labours place and in Scotland, as I have said before, I would vote SNP to keep out a labour candidate
Until the Independence Referendum many Tories did support the SNP in Scotland on an anti-Labour tactical basis. Much - though not all - of the Tory recovery there can be explained by such voters having returned to their Tory roots and helped deliver significant gains in the rural areas in 2017. Thus, many of those people who were voting SNP from the early 1970s until 2015 have now ceased to do so. The SNP has been able to offset the loss of that support by winning votes in the Labour heartlands - but Labour remains at an average of circa 26% in polls there ie pretty level pegging with the Tories. I have - and have always had - a much more hostile view of Nationalism than you appear to hold, and reject it in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - the right wing of the Tory party - the SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
Would Westminster wish to take the ultra extreme line of suspending a democratically elected Parliament? Stormont '72 was hardly comparable. That was done to de-escalate the situation. This would be to escalate it up to 11.
I disagree - the escalation would already have happened. I suspect Sturgeon and the SNP would be blamed for that. However, not for one moment do I believe she would act in this way.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Goodness me.
.
.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar with the electoral history of Scotland stretching back to the days of Gladstone. Social media has no interest for me at all .It is though a mistake to assume that any personal experience is somehow typical. I also say to you that as a left of centre person I would not hesitate to vote Tory rather than SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
The SNP in Scotland have stepped into labours place and in Scotland, as I have said before, I would vote SNP to keep out a labour candidate
Until the Independence Referendum many Tories did support the SNP in Scotland on an anti-Labour tactical basis. Much - though not all - of the Tory recovery there can be explained by such voters having returned to their Tory roots and helped deliver significant gains in the rural areas in 2017. Thus, many of those people who were voting SNP from the early 1970s until 2015 have now ceased to do so. The SNP has been able to offset the loss of that support by winning votes in the Labour heartlands - but Labour remains at an average of circa 26% in polls there ie pretty level pegging with the Tories. I have - and have always had - a much more hostile view of Nationalism than you appear to hold, and reject it in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - the right wing of the Tory party - the SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
But it does not stop you making inflamatory remarks to the Scots and their Parliament
I could not even tell my wife about your ill judged comments on suspending Holyrood
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
The Ultra extreme line of acting on a manifesto comittment?
So.... the PB consensus is: Nobody has a clue about what to do, but we should push ahead even if it means driving off the cliff.
Incredible. That a country with our history and tradition has been reduced to this level of imbecility. It is astounding.
I shall go and make more popcorn.
No, that is the Archer, Philip Thompson, Mortimer and Gin1138 view, prepare for No Deal, get the Union Jack boxers out and sod Brussels (while basking in the Aussie sun with a beer and totally unaffected in the case of one of them) the majority of voters do not want No Deal and nor do most PBers
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Goodness me.
.
.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar with the electoral history of Scotland stretching back to the days of Gladstone. Social media has no interest for me at all .It is though a mistake to assume that any personal experience is somehow typical. I also say to you that as a left of centre person I would not hesitate to vote Tory rather than SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
The SNP in Scotland have stepped into labours place and in Scotland, as I have said before, I would vote SNP to keep out a labour candidate
Until the Independence Referendum many Tories did support the SNP in Scotland on an anti-Labour tactical basis. Much - though not all - of the Tory recovery there can be explained by such voters having returned to their Tory roots and helped deliver significant gains in the rural areas in 2017. Thus, many of those people who were voting SNP from the early 1970s until 2015 have now ceased to do so. The SNP has been able to offset the loss of that support by winning votes in the Labour heartlands - but Labour remains at an average of circa 26% in polls there ie pretty level pegging with the Tories. I have - and have always had - a much more hostile view of Nationalism than you appear to hold, and reject it in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - the right wing of the Tory party - the SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
But it does not stop you making inflamatory remarks to the Scots and their Parliament
I could not even tell my wife about your ill judged comments on suspending Holyrood
Goodness me - Holyrood did not exist until the end of the 1990s! I am simply suggesting that it could be a policy option open to Westminster were Sturgeon to declare UDI! Such an act would be unlawful.
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
Unfortunately I think that ships sailed . Barring an unlikely second EU ref the demise of the UK will be cemented. And amazingly a large majority of Leavers support the break up of the UK , the next time a Leaver accuses Remainersmirror .
Indeed, I could never see how supporting Leave, leading to a smaller economy, less money to spend on the military and so on is being patriotic. My experience of Leave supporters is that many of them do not understand how Brexit will affect the economy, trade and investment. Furthermore the fact immigration is going to continue Brexit or not will not satisfy Leavers. People voted Leave for many different reasons and the prospectus they were sold were lies that people chose to believe. My view is Brexit should be cancelled and as a result austerity ended, with an effort to reinvigorate those lives that have been left behind economically in recent years.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as
H
Oh come on, you’re better than that. You can be proud of your nation within the EU. Ask the French.
I don’t doubt it, but what efforts did Remain make (or is making now) to win over right-wing and/or patriotic voters other than to tell them they’re dinosaurs and need to move on and forget England and the Empire?
Do you have any idea how that lands with exceptionally patriotic and proud people who love this country dearly, and everything it stands for and has achieved?
You can be patriotic, proud, left-wing and even vote remain.
Indeed you can, and you know I agree you can, but that wasn’t the point I was making.
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
The Ultra extreme line of acting on a manifesto comittment?
It would be acting unlawfully!
And what would you do to stop it. Presumably send in the army to put the Scots in their place.
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive, and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who depsise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
It never ceases to amaze me how people like you respond to the objections of those who think Brexit is a fools paradise. You simply don't have the intellectual arguments to counter the problems Brexit will create. You try and laugh it off or make some petty excuse. Brexit has been shown to be economically detrimental to the UK's standing. This will have consequences for military and foreign policy. Some candour by people like yourself on the subject would be welcome as you seem to have a mental disturbance that all will be well despite the potential for industrial collapse and so on.
I am a very patriotic person, however I think the UK will have a stronger economy in the EU with greater strength in foreign policy, military policy and economic dynamism than Brexit offers. You are stuck in the past and Brexit will not enable a rejuvenation of power rather a diminution of power.
You pop up now again to insult my intelligence and my character, and, indeed, prefer to attack straw men and caricatures rather than engage respectfully with argument, as others do who largely agree with your point of view.
I don’t see any reason why I should engage with you in debate as a consequence.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Goodness me.
.
.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar
The SNP in Scotland have stepped into labours place and in Scotland, as I have said before, I would vote SNP to keep out a labour candidate
Until the Independence Referendum many Tories did support the SNP in Scotland on an anti-Labour tactical basis. Much - though not all - of the Tory recovery there can be explained by such voters having returned to their Tory roots and helped deliver significant gains in the rural areas in 2017. Thus, many of those people who were voting SNP from the early 1970s until 2015 have now ceased to do so. The SNP has been able to offset the loss of that support by winning votes in the Labour heartlands - but Labour remains at an average of circa 26% in polls there ie pretty level pegging with the Tories. I have - and have always had - a much more hostile view of Nationalism than you appear to hold, and reject it in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - the right wing of the Tory party - the SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
But it does not stop you making inflamatory remarks to the Scots and their Parliament
I could not even tell my wife about your ill judged comments on suspending Holyrood
Goodness me - Holyrood did not exist until the end of the 1990s! I am simply suggesting that it could be a policy option open to Westminster were Sturgeon to declare UDI! Such an act would be unlawful.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
Unfortunately I think that ships sailed . Barring an unlikely second EU ref the demise of the UK will be cemented. And amazingly a large majority of Leavers support the break up of the UK , the next time a Leaver accuses Remainersmirror .
Indeed, I could never see how supporting Leave, leading to a smaller economy, less money to spend on the military and so on is being patriotic. My experience of Leave supporters is that many of them do not understand how Brexit will affect the economy, trade and investment. Furthermore the fact immigration is going to continue Brexit or not will not satisfy Leavers. People voted Leave for many different reasons and the prospectus they were sold were lies that people chose to believe. My view is Brexit should be cancelled and as a result austerity ended, with an effort to reinvigorate those lives that have been left behind economically in recent years.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive, and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who depsise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
Oh come on, you’re better than that. You can be proud of your nation within the EU. Ask the French.
I don’t doubt it, but what efforts did Remain make (or is making now) to win over right-wing and/or patriotic voters other than to tell them they’re dinosaurs and need to move on and forget England and the Empire?
Do you have any idea how that lands with exceptionally patriotic and proud people who love this country dearly, and everything it stands for and has achieved?
Leave is the vehicle of English nationalism and Leave is driving English nationalism straight into a wall.
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
The Ultra extreme line of acting on a manifesto comittment?
It would be acting unlawfully!
And what would you do to stop it. Presumably send in the army to put the Scots in their place.
You haven't a clue
I am not going to descend to unpleasantries here, but I feel I do have a legitimate view. I am not English either - having grown up in Pembrokeshire. In the scenario being contemplated, Sturgeon would have escalated matters and behaved in a way likely to be viewed as extreme by much of Scotland. But she will NOT do this!
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
Unfortunately I think that ships sailed . Barring an unlikely second EU ref the demise of the UK will be cemented. And amazingly a large majority of Leavers support the break up of the UK , the next time a Leaver accuses Remainersmirror .
Indeed, I could never see how supporting Leave, leading to a smaller economy, less money to spend on the military and so on is being patriotic.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive, and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who depsise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
Oh come on, you’re better than that. You can be proud of your nation within the EU. Ask the French.
I don’t doubt it, but what efforts did Remain make (or is making now) to win over right-wing and/or patriotic voters other than to tell them they’re dinosaurs and need to move on and forget England and the Empire?
Do you have any idea how that lands with exceptionally patriotic and proud people who love this country dearly, and everything it stands for and has achieved?
Leave is the vehicle of English nationalism and Leave is driving English nationalism straight into a wall.
I have some sympathy with that view
Well, you shouldn’t.
It simply isn’t true.
Sadly it has been witnessed on here tonight with regard to Scotland
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
As I have mentioned a few times, as the vote approached in the end I simply couldn't stomach being on the same side as the Remainers, whatever reservations I had about leaving the EU I was never going to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with such people.
Who would want to stand shoulder to shoulder with Alastair Campbell, Neil Kinnock, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, Nicola Sturgeon or Gerry Adams?
The closest Remain got to a vaguely patriotic argument was a label for 2-3 days in the last week arguing that we should “keep Britain great”, shown on adverts around Canary Wharf.
They then promptly spoilt it (and insulted the voters) by saying “Great Britain, not Little England”, which angered many floating voters I spoke to in the final days.
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
Unfortunately I think that ships sailed . Barring an unlikely second EU ref the demise of the UK will be cemented. And amazingly a large majority of Leavers support the break up of the UK , the next time a Leaver accuses Remainersmirror .
Indeed, I could never see how supporting Leave, leading to a smaller economy, less money to spend on the military and so on is being patriotic. My experience of Leave supporters is that many o.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as
H
Oh come on, you’re better than that. You can be proud of your nation within the EU. Ask the French.
I don’t doubt it, but what efforts did Remain make (or is making now) to win over right-wing and/or patriotic voters other than to tell them they’re dinosaurs and need to move on and forget England and the Empire?
Do you have any idea how that lands with exceptionally patriotic and proud people who love this country dearly, and everything it stands for and has achieved?
You can be patriotic, proud, left-wing and even vote remain.
Indeed you can, and you know I agree you can, but that wasn’t the point I was making.
Well the point is rather key, Remain had plenty of patriotic and proud people behind it. It simply didn’t offer much to those who associate their patriotism strongly with a particular model of government.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Goodness me.
.
.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar with the electoral history of Scotland stretching back to the days of Gladstone. Social media has no interest for me at all .It is though a mistake to assume that any personal experience is somehow typical. I also say to you that as a left of centre person I would not hesitate to vote Tory rather than SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
The SNP in Scotland have stepped into labours place and in Scotland, as I have said before, I would vote SNP to keep out a labour candidate
Until the Independence Referendum many Ts. I have - and have always had - a much more hostile view of Nationalism than you appear to hold, and reject it in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - the right wing of the Tory party - the SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
But it does not stop you making inflamatory remarks to the Scots and their Parliament
I could not even tell my wife about your ill judged comments on suspending Holyrood
Goodness me - Holyrood did not exist until the end of the 1990s! I am simply suggesting that it could be a policy option open to Westminster were Sturgeon to declare UDI! Such an act would be unlawful.
So we could expect scenes like this coming to Edinburgh and Glasgow then
Indeed so, but you cannot have patriotism without nations either.
What we are really critiquing with that is the common perception of what those words have come to politically represent, rather than their actual meaning.
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
The Ultra extreme line of acting on a manifesto comittment?
It would be acting unlawfully!
And what would you do to stop it. Presumably send in the army to put the Scots in their place.
You haven't a clue
I am not going to descend to unpleasantries here, but I feel I do have a legitimate view. I am not English either - having grown up in Pembrokeshire. In the scenario being contemplated, Sturgeon would have escalated matters and behaved in a way likely to be viewed as extreme by much of Scotland. But she will NOT do this!
But your comments today are like a red rag to a bull. You cannot threaten to outlaw Holyrood without receiving a fierce rebuke
I do not fall out with posters, that is not my style, but I will defend Scotland and its people.
So.... the PB consensus is: Nobody has a clue about what to do, but we should push ahead even if it means driving off the cliff.
Incredible. That a country with our history and tradition has been reduced to this level of imbecility. It is astounding.
I shall go and make more popcorn.
No, that is the Archer, Philip Thompson, Mortimer and Gin1138 view, prepare for No Deal, get the Union Jack boxers out and sod Brussels (while basking in the Aussie sun with a beer and totally unaffected in the case of one of them) the majority of voters do not want No Deal and nor do most PBers
Do you and BigGNorthWales have a bet on who can do the most U-turns on Brexit?
So.... the PB consensus is: Nobody has a clue about what to do, but we should push ahead even if it means driving off the cliff.
Incredible. That a country with our history and tradition has been reduced to this level of imbecility. It is astounding.
I shall go and make more popcorn.
No, that is the Archer, Philip Thompson, Mortimer and Gin1138 view, prepare for No Deal, get the Union Jack boxers out and sod Brussels (while basking in the Aussie sun with a beer and totally unaffected in the case of one of them) the majority of voters do not want No Deal and nor do most PBers
Are you and BigGNorthWales in a competition to see who can do the most U-turns on Brexit?
Both myself and BigG voted Remain, we back Brexit now but a sane one
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
Un .
Indeed, I could never see how supporting Leave, leading to a smaller economy, less money to spend on the military and so on is being patriotic. My experience of Leave supporters is that many o.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as
H
Oh come on, you’re better than that. You can be proud of your nation within the EU. Ask the French.
I don’t doubt it, but what efforts did Remain make (or is making now) to win over right-wing and/or patriotic voters other than to tell them they’re dinosaurs and need to move on and forget England and the Empire?
Do you have any idea how that lands with exceptionally patriotic and proud people who love this country dearly, and everything it stands for and has achieved?
You can be patriotic, proud, left-wing and even vote remain.
Indeed you can, and you know I agree you can, but that wasn’t the point I was making.
Well the point is rather key, Remain had plenty of patriotic and proud people behind it. It simply didn’t offer much to those who associate their patriotism strongly with a particular model of government.
Patriotic arguments made by Remain, that appealled to the heart, were very thin on the ground even if they themselves believed in them.
It was far more common to mock and laugh at Brexiteers for their philistinism, backwardness, ignorance and lack of internationalist spirit.
I beg to suggest that that might not have gone down particularly well.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Goodness me.
.
.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar with the electoral history of Scotland stretching back to the days of Gladstone. Social media has no interest for me at all .It is though a mistake to assume that any personal experience is somehow typical. I also say to you that as a left of centre person I would not hesitate to vote Tory rather than SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
The SNP in Scotland have stepped into labours place and in Scotland, as I have said before, I would vote SNP to keep out a labour candidate
Until the Independence Referendum many Ts. I have - and have always had - a much more hostile view of Nationalism than you appear to hold, and reject it in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - the right wing of the Tory party - the SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
But it does not stop you making inflamatory remarks to the Scots and their Parliament
I could not even tell my wife about your ill judged comments on suspending Holyrood
Goodness me - Holyrood did not exist until the end of the 1990s! I am simply suggesting that it could be a policy option open to Westminster were Sturgeon to declare UDI! Such an act would be unlawful.
So we could expect scenes like this coming to Edinburgh and Glasgow then
I cannot accept responsibility for your expectations. The fact is that a Scottish Parliament declaring UDI would have acted unlawfully - and lost its legitimacy.
So.... the PB consensus is: Nobody has a clue about what to do, but we should push ahead even if it means driving off the cliff.
Incredible. That a country with our history and tradition has been reduced to this level of imbecility. It is astounding.
I shall go and make more popcorn.
No, that is the Archer, Philip Thompson, Mortimer and Gin1138 view, prepare for No Deal, get the Union Jack boxers out and sod Brussels (while basking in the Aussie sun with a beer and totally unaffected in the case of one of them) the majority of voters do not want No Deal and nor do most PBers
What about the attitude of "We must respect the referendum and implement Brexit no matter how damaging! Democracy is democrary!!". It is almost like respecting self-harm as a force for good. We can see how stupid the whole thing is and yet very few of our politicians seem prepared to argue the case for junking the whole thing.
So.... the PB consensus is: Nobody has a clue about what to do, but we should push ahead even if it means driving off the cliff.
Incredible. That a country with our history and tradition has been reduced to this level of imbecility. It is astounding.
I shall go and make more popcorn.
No, that is the Archer, Philip Thompson, Mortimer and Gin1138 view, prepare for No Deal, get the Union Jack boxers out and sod Brussels (while basking in the Aussie sun with a beer and totally unaffected in the case of one of them) the majority of voters do not want No Deal and nor do most PBers
Are you and BigGNorthWales in a competition to see who can do the most U-turns on Brexit?
Both myself and BigG voted Remain, we back Brexit now but a sane one
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive, and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who depsise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
It never ceases to amaze me how people like you respond to the objections of those who think Brexit is a fools paradise. You simply don't have the intellectual arguments to counter the problems Brexit will create. You try and laugh it off or make some petty excuse. Brexit has been shown to be economically detrimental to the UK's standing. This will have consequences for military and foreign policy. Some candour by people like yourself on the subject would be welcome as you seem to have a mental disturbance that all will be well despite the potential for industrial collapse and so on.
I am a very patriotic person, however I think the UK will have a stronger economy in the EU with greater strength in foreign policy, military policy and economic dynamism than Brexit offers. You are stuck in the past and Brexit will not enable a rejuvenation of power rather a diminution of power.
You pop up now again to insult my intelligence and my character, and, indeed, prefer to attack straw men and caricatures rather than engage respectfully with argument, as others do who largely agree with your point of view.
I don’t see any reason why I should engage with you in debate as a consequence.
So.... the PB consensus is: Nobody has a clue about what to do, but we should push ahead even if it means driving off the cliff.
Incredible. That a country with our history and tradition has been reduced to this level of imbecility. It is astounding.
I shall go and make more popcorn.
No, that is the Archer, Philip Thompson, Mortimer and Gin1138 view, prepare for No Deal, get the Union Jack boxers out and sod Brussels (while basking in the Aussie sun with a beer and totally unaffected in the case of one of them) the majority of voters do not want No Deal and nor do most PBers
Are you and BigGNorthWales in a competition to see who can do the most U-turns on Brexit?
Both myself and BigG voted Remain, we back Brexit now but a sane one
Indeed so, but you cannot have patriotism without nations either.
What we are really critiquing with that is the common perception of what those words have come to politically represent, rather than their actual meaning.
It’s entirely flexible. Scots are patriotic within the UK. The French are patriotic within the EU. We British used to take pride in pragmatism and shades of grey. It was a strength where we used to be able to get the best out of each situation.
Now it’s all polarised , black and white. We have to pick a side. I put it down to a loss of confidence. We are diminished as a result.
The late stages of Jonestown are being enacted on pb tonight.
Stolen quip, Dura Ace used it a few days back.
He likes to use lines like that (particularly ones that people might have to google to find out what they mean) because it makes him feel clever about himself and therefore validates his own innate inner sense of insecurity.
It isn’t actually necessary, because he’s clever enough as it is, but he still feels that’s not enough. He just needs to recognise he doesn’t have the unique god-given gift to always be the cleverest in the room and always right.
My guess is that people in Scotland would be fed up with a third or fourth constitutional referendum in just a few years but if one takes place on independence it is likely to carry. That's because the 2014 coalition for the Union won't be there next time. No-one much will argue for it. We're in union with a corpse. The corpse doesn't care about Scotland either .
Which l regret personally. There is value in unions, whether the UK or the EU.
We must respect democracy, the people were warned this was a possibility but they still voted for it.
Goodness me.
.
.
Just how much connection do you have with any Scots
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
I have visited Scotland and do have friends who are Scots.I am also very familiar with the electoral history of Scotland stretching back to the days of Gladstone. Social media has no interest for me at all .It is though a mistake to assume that any personal experience is somehow typical. I also say to you that as a left of centre person I would not hesitate to vote Tory rather than SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
The SNP in Scotland have stepped into labours place and in Scotland, as I have said before, I would vote SNP to keep out a labour candidate
Until the Independence Referendum many Ts. I have - and have always had - a much more hostile view of Nationalism than you appear to hold, and reject it in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - the right wing of the Tory party - the SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
But it does not stop you making inflamatory remarks to the Scots and their Parliament
I could not even tell my wife about your ill judged comments on suspending Holyrood
Goodness me - Holyrood did not exist until the end of the 1990s! I am simply suggesting that it could be a policy option open to Westminster were Sturgeon to declare UDI! Such an act would be unlawful.
So we could expect scenes like this coming to Edinburgh and Glasgow then
I cannot accept responsibility for your expectations. The fact is that a Scottish Parliament declaring UDI would have acted unlawfully - and lost its legitimacy.
And if you then scrap it expect violent clashes on the streets of Scottish cities as a result
So.... the PB consensus is: Nobody has a clue about what to do, but we should push ahead even if it means driving off the cliff.
Incredible. That a country with our history and tradition has been reduced to this level of imbecility. It is astounding.
I shall go and make more popcorn.
No, that is the Archer, Philip Thompson, Mortimer and Gin1138 view, prepare for No Deal, get the Union Jack boxers out and sod Brussels (while basking in the Aussie sun with a beer and totally unaffected in the case of one of them) the majority of voters do not want No Deal and nor do most PBers
Are you and BigGNorthWales in a competition to see who can do the most U-turns on Brexit?
Both myself and BigG voted Remain, we back Brexit now but a sane one
The insanity is mainly the speed it is attempted to do it at. Spread it over 12 years and it just becomes a big admin job.
So.... the PB consensus is: Nobody has a clue about what to do, but we should push ahead even if it means driving off the cliff.
Incredible. That a country with our history and tradition has been reduced to this level of imbecility. It is astounding.
I shall go and make more popcorn.
No, that is the Archer, Philip Thompson, Mortimer and Gin1138 view, prepare for No Deal, get the Union Jack boxers out and sod Brussels (while basking in the Aussie sun with a beer and totally unaffected in the case of one of them) the majority of voters do not want No Deal and nor do most PBers
What about the attitude of "We must respect the referendum and implement Brexit no matter how damaging! Democracy is democrary!!". It is almost like respecting self-harm as a force for good. We can see how stupid the whole thing is and yet very few of our politicians seem prepared to argue the case for junking the whole thing.
Though very few politicians openly back No Deal either which is why BINO Brexit is still the likeliest result come March 2019
I believe there is a strong case for arguing that if Sturgeon acted in the way suggested by HYUFD , the effect could be to undermine the Devolution Settlement and the suspension of Holyrood could well occur. We have seen this happen in Northern Ireland - with Stormont being suspended and replaced by Direct Rule back in March 1972. More recently the Northern Ireland Assembly has ceased to fully function. Would the SNP really wish to put the Scottish Parliament at risk as a result of taking an ultra extreme line?
The Ultra extreme line of acting on a manifesto comittment?
It would be acting unlawfully!
And what would you do to stop it. Presumably send in the army to put the Scots in their place.
You haven't a clue
I am not going to descend to unpleasantries here, but I feel I do have a legitimate view. I am not English either - having grown up in Pembrokeshire. In the scenario being contemplated, Sturgeon would have escalated matters and behaved in a way likely to be viewed as extreme by much of Scotland. But she will NOT do this!
But your comments today are like a red rag to a bull. You cannot threaten to outlaw Holyrood without receiving a fierce rebuke
I do not fall out with posters, that is not my style, but I will defend Scotland and its people.
They are my family
I assure you that I am very pro-Scotland - but very anti -Nationalist. The Legislation which established the Scottish and Welsh assemblies in the late 1990s can be repealed by Westminster. I am not suggesting such action is remotely likely , but in the - in my view VERY - hypothetical scenario of such an inflammatory act as UDI I could well see calls for Holyrood to be suspended - including from within Scotland itself. Have to depart now for a late drink!
So the biggest act of self harm by a nation continues ! And not a single poll in 18 months has shown a majority who still think Brexit is a good idea . And yet the spivs and liars continue to parade around as if the country voted 80/20 to leave.
Barring a few saner voices the cabinet is full of delusional PM wannabes. These are dark times for the UK.
Maybe things have to be dark and getting darker for something dramatic to happen in relation to Brexit.
I always thought it would be a terrible path for the UK to follow, it is still not too late for a U - turn.
.
I do not understand pro-eu people who say the economy will be smaller but we need immigration to fulfil all the jobs that will be created.
It’s sort of funny, given that pro-EU people constantly abuse and mock Brexiteers for being narrow minded, insular and racist Little Englanders and reject any sense of pride in nationhood as backward and regressive, and the cause of the past, and promote their cause entirely by luvvies and politicians on the Left who depsise any real sense of patriotism or pride in this country’s institutions.
And they wonder why Remain struggled to win over patriotic voters?
It never ceases to amaze me how people like you respond to the objections of those who think Brexit is a fools paradise. You simply don't have the intellectual arguments to counter the problems Brexit will create. You try and laugh it offon.
I am a very patriotic person, however I think the UK will have a stronger economy in the EU with greater strength in foreign policy, military policy and economic dynamism than Brexit offers. You are stuck in the past and Brexit will not enable a rejuvenation of power rather a diminution of power.
You pop up now again to insult my intelligence and my character, and, indeed, prefer to attack straw men and caricatures rather than engage respectfully with argument, as others do who largely agree with your point of view.
I don’t see any reason why I should engage with you in debate as a consequence.
Another excuse.....
Excuse for what?
You exhibit a total lack of respect for me in any rare post you contribute, and just write lengthy diatribes attacking straw men and caricatures instead.
Why would I want to engage with that? And what would be the point?
Indeed so, but you cannot have patriotism without nations either.
What we are really critiquing with that is the common perception of what those words have come to politically represent, rather than their actual meaning.
It’s entirely flexible. Scots are patriotic within the UK. The French are patriotic within the EU. We British used to take pride in pragmatism and shades of grey. It was a strength where we used to be able to get the best out of each situation.
Now it’s all polarised , black and white. We have to pick a side. I put it down to a loss of confidence. We are diminished as a result.
I wholly agree. I put it down to a lack of confidence too..
Comments
When economies contract some sectors or even companies are hit hard but others may experience a massive boost. I would say as an example after the financial crisis that Pound shops experienced growth whilst the rest of the economy was in dire straights due to a change in taste or a more price competitive environment replacing the status quo. Many skilled and unskilled jobs will need filling as the current workforce retires, dies or becomes unable to work.
You don’t use blanket bans to make political points about who you are and who you are not, or want to be seen as, you show tolerance, respect and forgiveness by judging each individual case on its merits, and standing up to those who would bully you into trying to do something different.
We could now spend the money on other things to reduce emissions rather than subsidising vehicles that people want to buy. Building charging stations would be a much better use of funds.
Please confirm you have visited Scotland , interacted with Scots, and have a large Scots only social media connection
The well off can afford EV without plundering the taxes of those who cannot afford EVs
Do you have any idea how that lands with exceptionally patriotic and proud people who love this country dearly, and everything it stands for and has achieved?
It would see Corbyn slip somewhere behind the Yorkshire Christian Socialist Revolution for Ripon Only Party in the national polls.
And it would be funny.
And it would of course also be true...
Getting unemployment down quicker is both morally correct and better for The Treasury so the country is better off.
Leaving 2.6 million unemployed and using immigrant labour to fulfil the new jobs created is not sensible.
I am a very patriotic person, however I think the UK will have a stronger economy in the EU with greater strength in foreign policy, military policy and economic dynamism than Brexit offers. You are stuck in the past and Brexit will not enable a rejuvenation of power rather a diminution of power.
You need to think of how the power is generated and stored, as well as where the crud comes out.
*is this the first day ever where a green source has been our single largest supplier of power?
Obviously as a Leaver I support the fact that people will make decisions on grounds that are not always based wholly on economics. If I was a Scot I would probably be pro-independence (but realising that with Scotland's embrace of socialism economic success is highly unlikely). But Scotland voted to remain primarily because the SNP lost the economic argument over independence and that argument looks a whole lot worse with a hard border, the Euro and at least five years in limbo waiting to rejoin the EU.
With respect, you are taking a sample of ardent nationalists who one presumes would vote for independence anyway. 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. The general view seems to be that Scots don't want another referendum because views have not really changed.
So no, I don't think there is any evidence that Scotland would vote for independence in these circumstances and I think given the obvious influence of economic factors last time, they would lose by a much bigger margin than before. I don't claim to be an expert on Scotland, but I am entitled to a view based on evidence which is widely available.
I would modify my view by saying that in an illegal referendum, I expect the Unionists would boycott so maybe she would win that way but the result would be ignored.
If he really thought that divergence was such a problem for the UK surely he would be begging us to leave on CETA tomorrow, rather than trying to lock us in the CU and SM forever....
Believe you me if the English take Scotland into a no deal economy there will be a price to pay
Patriotism is not just a flag or virtue signalling, it's a committment. Contrary to what some people think, it's not just an identity to be put on or sloughed off when convenient. Taxes have to be paid, schools built, children educated, the ill tended and the dead buried. And Remainers do so as well as Leave.
English suggestions Holyrood is suspended is an arrogance of mind numbing proportions
Scotland needs to be part of the Union with an extensive and generous devolution of powers to Holyrood
As Alastair just said
'leave is driving English nationalism straight into the wall'
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"
Also Brextremists: " A customs Union backstop would be a betrayal of the nation and reduce us to a colony of the EU which is unacceptable"
Am I following that right
Stormont '72 was hardly comparable. That was done to de-escalate the situation. This would be to escalate it up to 11.
Incredible. That a country with our history and tradition has been reduced to this level of imbecility. It is astounding.
I shall go and make more popcorn.
I have - and have always had - a much more hostile view of Nationalism than you appear to hold, and reject it in all its forms whether found in the BNP - UKIP - the right wing of the Tory party - the SNP - or Plaid Cymru.
I could not even tell my wife about your ill judged comments on suspending Holyrood
He really cannot hide his love for all things EU
You haven't a clue
I don’t see any reason why I should engage with you in debate as a consequence.
It simply isn’t true.
The closest Remain got to a vaguely patriotic argument was a label for 2-3 days in the last week arguing that we should “keep Britain great”, shown on adverts around Canary Wharf.
They then promptly spoilt it (and insulted the voters) by saying “Great Britain, not Little England”, which angered many floating voters I spoke to in the final days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjljNuriwq8
What we are really critiquing with that is the common perception of what those words have come to politically represent, rather than their actual meaning.
I do not fall out with posters, that is not my style, but I will defend Scotland and its people.
They are my family
It was far more common to mock and laugh at Brexiteers for their philistinism, backwardness, ignorance and lack of internationalist spirit.
I beg to suggest that that might not have gone down particularly well.
The fact is that a Scottish Parliament declaring UDI would have acted unlawfully - and lost its legitimacy.
Now it’s all polarised , black and white. We have to pick a side. I put it down to a loss of confidence. We are diminished as a result.
It isn’t actually necessary, because he’s clever enough as it is, but he still feels that’s not enough. He just needs to recognise he doesn’t have the unique god-given gift to always be the cleverest in the room and always right.
Because he’s not.
Which l regret personally. There is value in unions, whether the UK or the EU.
The Legislation which established the Scottish and Welsh assemblies in the late 1990s can be repealed by Westminster. I am not suggesting such action is remotely likely , but in the - in my view VERY - hypothetical scenario of such an inflammatory act as UDI I could well see calls for Holyrood to be suspended - including from within Scotland itself.
Have to depart now for a late drink!
You exhibit a total lack of respect for me in any rare post you contribute, and just write lengthy diatribes attacking straw men and caricatures instead.
Why would I want to engage with that? And what would be the point?
.. in the EU.