"Some 7,000 trucks go through its ports and the Channel Tunnel rail crossing every day, and a ‘hard Brexit’ whereby the UK leaves the EU’s single market would require building new customs and sanitary infrastructure. "
Turd country status?
(Yes I know I’m opening a wide open goal for Remainers to joke, but I cannot resist the pun).
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
follow the money is always the best advice
the people who claim they worry most about NI are the same ones who two years ago didnt give a shit about the place or its inhabitants.
even Leo doesnt give a shit about it, he' just doing some easing brit bashing because he has an election coming up and he has the Commission on side
"Some 7,000 trucks go through its ports and the Channel Tunnel rail crossing every day, and a ‘hard Brexit’ whereby the UK leaves the EU’s single market would require building new customs and sanitary infrastructure. "
Things are happening and the politicians will be forced into a deal by shear economic necessity on both sides of the channel
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
The U.K. will decouple over time just like Ireland did from the U.K. post 1922.
What forces will make it happen? The world economy is very different from then.
In any case, the likes of Alanbrooke still see Ireland as an economic vassal of the UK to this day.
I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.
I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.
Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
yes, but the episodes on Netflix are longer, I think.
The one I am watching at the moment is 1hr 40 mins long so perhaps.
Didn't notice it on BBC but I might not have anyway.
The episodes on the BBC were 60 minutes each.
Nick Turse wrote an excellent book on Vietnam, and a valuble antidote to US revisionism:
I had a cousin in Vietnam with the Australians. He came back a changed man, quite the peacenik for a career officer. Terrible arachnoiditis too, which he blamed on Agent Orange.
Contrary to the more recent wars, where we had overwhelming odds on our favour (not to say we couldn't have been killed), Vietnam was not a sure fire victory
One of the weirder things was that they (the US) seem to know it early on. In the recent Ken Burns documentary I'm sure there was a taped phone call from LBJ during his presidency admitting it was a lost cause but they had to keep on keeping on.
Yes it's the one I'm watching at the moment. He does say that.
Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.
Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?
Or is it a Zionist smear?
Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
Appointed by the British.
If the British hadn't been involved he would have taken over the equivalent preceding position on his half brother's death. I don't think we selected him, just expediently approved him.
The books of Paul Berman are very good on the WW2 period and after re the Grand Mufti and his impact on other Arab leaders (eg he was a bit of a mentor to Yasser Arafat). Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, Is good on Israeli history and he does try to cover the Arab perspective.
I think you perhaps need to go back a bit further than that. Daniel Heller’s Jabotinsky’s Children is a very good book indeed on the rise of interwar Polish Zionism, which recognises the complexities and contradictions of the period (it’s notable, for example, that the Polish democrats were rather more antisemetic than the Polish fascists...).
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
The U.K. will decouple over time just like Ireland did from the U.K. post 1922.
Of course there are those who think (admittedly without the benefit of logic or data) that Ireland is on the brink of recoupling with the UK.
Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.
Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?
Or is it a Zionist smear?
Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
Appointed by the British.
Yes, our record in the 30 years between 1918 and 1948 in the Mandate in terms of perfidy and incompetence is quite astonishing. That anyone thinks we can usefully contribute to resolving the issues that we created beggars belief. Perhaps not the worst legacy of British Imperialism, but surely in the top 10.
In terms of facilitating the creation of the state of Israel it was very successful.
It almost certainly couldn't have happened without the British military protecting mass Jewish immigration.
Though we did stop Jewish migration in 1936, and of course post war too.
Mitigated not eliminated.
In 1939 (after Kristallnacht and the Czech crisis!) the Tory government in Britain issued a White Paper restricting immigration of Jews to Palestine to 75 000 per year, trapping many on the European mainland on the brink of war:
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
follow the money is always the best advice
the people who claim they worry most about NI are the same ones who two years ago didnt give a shit about the place or its inhabitants.
even Leo doesnt give a shit about it, he' just doing some easing brit bashing because he has an election coming up and he has the Commission on side
What relevance does any of that have to the negotiations? If you "follow the money" the only conclusion you can come to is that it's in no-one's interests for the UK to leave the single market and customs union, therefore all sides will contrive to ensure that's the outcome using whichever political expedient comes to hand. Your own logic suggests the UK will capitulate and regard it as a success.
On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.
It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily
But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.
Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
It isn't. That's why Chequers is the right deal for the UK.
It preserves our car and aerospace industries intact whilst we can pivot away the 80% of our economy that is based on services and develop and regulate it accordingly. We can do our own trade deals. We get back our seat at the WTO. We can put more controls on free movement. We save money. And we quit the EU's political structures.
We basically go back to just the common market in goods we used to have, plus some bilateral security and defence arrangements in our national interest.
What's not to like?
Had to pop out. And on this we are on the same page and no need for a hard Brexit and or a second referendum
Glad to hear it. We need to get behind the Government if we want to respect democracy and stop Corbyn.
I have been totally behind TM in her negotiations. My anger today was to think that Davis would share a platform with Farage and if they succeeded in a hard Brexit I would support a second referendum as no deal is an absolute no for me
Big G, even Chequers is hard Brexit. Leaving SM, CU and ending FOM
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
follow the money is always the best advice
the people who claim they worry most about NI are the same ones who two years ago didnt give a shit about the place or its inhabitants.
even Leo doesnt give a shit about it, he' just doing some easing brit bashing because he has an election coming up and he has the Commission on side
Quite.
This Dublin, Holyhead, Calais thing is the reality dawning that a nice long sail down the Irish Sea, turn left at the Scillys, and then settling in for a nice long passage down the Channel to dock Zeebrugge or Rotterdam or wherever, is, from an Irish business perspective, batshit crazy, whatever bollocks Brussels comes out with about North Sea Corridors.
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see t brinkmanship.
follow the money is always the best advice
the people who claim they worry most about NI are the same ones who two years ago didnt give a shit about the place or its inhabitants.
even Leo doesnt give a shit about it, he' just doing some easing brit bashing because he has an election coming up and he has the Commission on side
What relevance does any of that have to the negotiations? If you "follow the money" the only conclusion you can come to is that it's in no-one's interests for the UK to leave the single market and customs union, therefore all sides will contrive to ensure that's the outcome using whichever political expedient comes to hand. Your own logic suggests the UK will capitulate and regard it as a success.
my going in position has always been Brexit will be pretty much like what we have today only with a solid guarantee of no further integration.
The rest of what I "think" is simply things you make up when you run out of arguments.
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
The U.K. will decouple over time just like Ireland did from the U.K. post 1922.
Of course there are those who think (admittedly without the benefit of logic or data) that Ireland is on the brink of recoupling with the UK.
It won’t of course. It will decouple further. Fair enough.
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
The Revenue Commissioners are preparing for full customs checks involving officials from a number of Government departments in case no deal is reached on Brexit, a senior Revenue official has said.
No unlike you Im not looking at what they say Im looking at what they are doing and thats even less than the UK government
perhaps youd like to explain how HMG has no time to do anything and its armageddon, but when the Irish govt make an announcement today of things they still have to do. all is ok and under control. It isnt Ifrteland has made less preparations than HMG.
They are our hostage
You are untypically willfully refusing to recognise the dynamics of the border. It is an asymmetric power play. The UK and Ireland are not equally equipped. Even Slugger O'Toole gets that.
Who has the power in your view?
Great question.
Not the government if that helps! Both the DUP/ERG can rightly say that a border in the Irish Sea is unthinkable.
And at the same time an land actual border is something all sides have said they don't want.
The government is piggy in the middle.
The only seeming workable option is for the UK as a whole to stay in the SM:CU. But that means FoM so...
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
follow the money is always the best advice
the people who claim they worry most about NI are the same ones who two years ago didnt give a shit about the place or its inhabitants.
even Leo doesnt give a shit about it, he' just doing some easing brit bashing because he has an election coming up and he has the Commission on side
Quite.
This Dublin, Holyhead, Calais thing is the reality dawning that a nice long sail down the Irish Sea, turn left at the Scillys, and then settling in for a nice long passage down the Channel to dock Zeebrugge or Rotterdam or wherever, is, from an Irish business perspective, batshit crazy, whatever bollocks Brussels comes out with about North Sea Corridors.
First smell of fudge out of Ireland?
If so good.
even if they wanted to there are not enough ships to carry the trade.
Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.
Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?
Or is it a Zionist smear?
Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
Appointed by the British.
If the British hadn't been involved he would have taken over the equivalent preceding position on his half brother's death. I don't think we selected him, just expediently approved him.
The books of Paul Berman are very good on the WW2 period and after re the Grand Mufti and his impact on other Arab leaders (eg he was a bit of a mentor to Yasser Arafat). Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, Is good on Israeli history and he does try to cover the Arab perspective.
I think you perhaps need to go back a bit further than that. Daniel Heller’s Jabotinsky’s Children is a very good book indeed on the rise of interwar Polish Zionism, which recognises the complexities and contradictions of the period (it’s notable, for example, that the Polish democrats were rather more antisemetic than the Polish fascists...).
I highly recommend "On the Eve" as a fascinating picture of the diversity of European Jewry, in all its complexity and factions. One cannot travel, particularly in Eastern Europe, without feeling the loss of a vibrant strand of European culture.
A YouGov poll this week for The Times reveals that voters want Mrs May to stay until the conclusion of Brexit talks. Some 43 per cent want her to remain Tory leader before the talks conclude, with 34 per cent saying she should stand down now and 24 per cent saying they do not know.
However, support flips round after Brexit. When asked whether Mrs May should hang on after Brexit negotiations are complete, 28 per cent want her to stay, 45 per cent want her to stand down and 27 per cent do not know.
Only just catching up on the USA supreme court nomination process. Kavanaugh was asked a suuuuuuper specific question which made him look punch drunk before he proceed to go "I do not recall" in response.
"Some 7,000 trucks go through its ports and the Channel Tunnel rail crossing every day, and a ‘hard Brexit’ whereby the UK leaves the EU’s single market would require building new customs and sanitary infrastructure. "
Turd country status?
(Yes I know I’m opening a wide open goal for Remainers to joke, but I cannot resist the pun).
A YouGov poll this week for The Times reveals that voters want Mrs May to stay until the conclusion of Brexit talks. Some 43 per cent want her to remain Tory leader before the talks conclude, with 34 per cent saying she should stand down now and 24 per cent saying they do not know.
However, support flips round after Brexit. When asked whether Mrs May should hang on after Brexit negotiations are complete, 28 per cent want her to stay, 45 per cent want her to stand down and 27 per cent do not know.
"Some 7,000 trucks go through its ports and the Channel Tunnel rail crossing every day, and a ‘hard Brexit’ whereby the UK leaves the EU’s single market would require building new customs and sanitary infrastructure. "
Turd country status?
(Yes I know I’m opening a wide open goal for Remainers to joke, but I cannot resist the pun).
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
A YouGov poll this week for The Times reveals that voters want Mrs May to stay until the conclusion of Brexit talks. Some 43 per cent want her to remain Tory leader before the talks conclude, with 34 per cent saying she should stand down now and 24 per cent saying they do not know.
However, support flips round after Brexit. When asked whether Mrs May should hang on after Brexit negotiations are complete, 28 per cent want her to stay, 45 per cent want her to stand down and 27 per cent do not know.
I am not surprised by that as that has been my position
"Some 7,000 trucks go through its ports and the Channel Tunnel rail crossing every day, and a ‘hard Brexit’ whereby the UK leaves the EU’s single market would require building new customs and sanitary infrastructure. "
Turd country status?
(Yes I know I’m opening a wide open goal for Remainers to joke, but I cannot resist the pun).
I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.
I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.
Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
yes, but the episodes on Netflix are longer, I think.
The one I am watching at the moment is 1hr 40 mins long so perhaps.
Didn't notice it on BBC but I might not have anyway.
The episodes on the BBC were 60 minutes each.
Nick Turse wrote an excellent book on Vietnam, and a valuble antidote to US revisionism:
I had a cousin in Vietnam with the Australians. He came back a changed man, quite the peacenik for a career officer. Terrible arachnoiditis too, which he blamed on Agent Orange.
Contrary to the more recent wars, where we had overwhelming odds on our favour (not to say we couldn't have been killed), Vietnam was not a sure fire victory
One of the weirder things was that they (the US) seem to know it early on. In the recent Ken Burns documentary I'm sure there was a taped phone call from LBJ during his presidency admitting it was a lost cause but they had to keep on keeping on.
Yes it's the one I'm watching at the moment. He does say that.
Brilliant series. I will watch again if now on Netflix and longer.
Tim O'Brien was one of the series consultants (and is interviewed near the end). His Vietnam fiction books are well worth a read. One of my favourite authors.
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
The U.K. will decouple over time just like Ireland did from the U.K. post 1922.
What forces will make it happen? The world economy is very different from then.
In any case, the likes of Alanbrooke still see Ireland as an economic vassal of the UK to this day.
The fact that the EU is about 7% of a rapidly equalising world economy per head and so 93% isn't. 80% of our economic output is services which tend not to travel at all (haircuts) or travel incredibly well with nigh on zero transport costs ( TV formats). Oh and English is a world language.
Our business has moved from about 1% to 40% none U.K. or EU in 20 years. I fully expect that trend to continue.
Time and demographics are not on your side. Stop being so little European. There’s a world out there if you look.
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
So holding fire and to ease the conference. At last acting like grown ups
Maybe something to do with Boris meeting the chief whip today and also knowing he needs to prevent a complete collapse of his support among conservative mps
I imagine TM could come out of this with a fine legacy
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.
Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?
Or is it a Zionist smear?
Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
Appointed by the British.
If the British hadn't been involved he would have taken over the equivalent preceding position on his half brother's death. I don't think we selected him, just expediently approved him.
The books of Paul Berman are very good on the WW2 period and after re the Grand Mufti and his impact on other Arab leaders (eg he was a bit of a mentor to Yasser Arafat). Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, Is good on Israeli history and he does try to cover the Arab perspective.
I think you perhaps need to go back a bit further than that. Daniel Heller’s Jabotinsky’s Children is a very good book indeed on the rise of interwar Polish Zionism, which recognises the complexities and contradictions of the period (it’s notable, for example, that the Polish democrats were rather more antisemetic than the Polish fascists...).
I highly recommend "On the Eve" as a fascinating picture of the diversity of European Jewry, in all its complexity and factions. One cannot travel, particularly in Eastern Europe, without feeling the loss of a vibrant strand of European culture.
The Good Lady Wifi is currently very involved in a project on the events of Bulgaria in WW2, which were the one bright spot - when King Boris played high stakes poker with Hitler to avoid sending 50,000 Bulgarian Jews to the death camps.
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
The U.K. will decouple over time just like Ireland did from the U.K. post 1922.
What forces will make it happen? The world economy is very different from then.
In any case, the likes of Alanbrooke still see Ireland as an economic vassal of the UK to this day.
The fact that the EU is about 7% of a rapidly equalising world economy per head and so 93% isn't. 80% of our economic output is services which tend not to travel at all (haircuts) or travel incredibly well with nigh on zero transport costs ( TV formats). Oh and English is a world language.
Our business has moved from about 1% to 40% none U.K. or EU in 20 years. I fully expect that trend to continue.
Time and demographics are not on your side. Stop being so little European. There’s a world out there if you look.
That increase has happened while in the EU!
What is it about the EU that is stopping our service exports at present?
Why would losing the large EU market help export elsewhere?
Time and demographics are not on your side. Stop being so little European. There’s a world out there if you look.
That's your framing. I could equally well tell you to stop being so little British and embrace the opportunities of Global Wales. The idea that shrinking your domestic internal market makes you inherently more global is simply a logical fallacy.
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
The U.K. will decouple over time just like Ireland did from the U.K. post 1922.
What forces will make it happen? The world economy is very different from then.
In any case, the likes of Alanbrooke still see Ireland as an economic vassal of the UK to this day.
The fact that the EU is about 7% of a rapidly equalising world economy per head and so 93% isn't. 80% of our economic output is services which tend not to travel at all (haircuts) or travel incredibly well with nigh on zero transport costs ( TV formats). Oh and English is a world language.
Our business has moved from about 1% to 40% none U.K. or EU in 20 years. I fully expect that trend to continue.
Time and demographics are not on your side. Stop being so little European. There’s a world out there if you look.
That increase has happened while in the EU!
What is it about the EU that is stopping our service exports at present?
Why would losing the large EU market help export elsewhere?
maybe he sells Nike and doesnt want to deal with all the old white geezers :-)
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
A YouGov poll this week for The Times reveals that voters want Mrs May to stay until the conclusion of Brexit talks. Some 43 per cent want her to remain Tory leader before the talks conclude, with 34 per cent saying she should stand down now and 24 per cent saying they do not know.
However, support flips round after Brexit. When asked whether Mrs May should hang on after Brexit negotiations are complete, 28 per cent want her to stay, 45 per cent want her to stand down and 27 per cent do not know.
So, an AV style, 3 way referendum would say.
Round 1: Go now 34, 15 go after Brexit, 28 stay on indefinitely Go after Brexit is eliminated
Round 2: Go now 34+X, stay on 28+y Unless nearly 4/5 of the transfers say stay on...
This poll almost certainly says TMay should GO NOW by your favoured electoral method.
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
Yes and it is not relevant to the point the Irish are talking to the EU about
Of course if a rogue vehicle broke the seals that would be a matter for the Irish and EU
The better answer to @viwcodes question is to count the Irish Lorries in at Dover and out at Holyhead, if nessecary via a refunded bond.
More work for customs and exercise mind you, and an increase in bureaucracy.
why should we do that ? Whats in it for us ?
You of all people should realise that the application of logic is not appropriate to the NI situation.
There can't be a hard border. There can't be an Irish Sea border. The thing that's got to give is freedom of movement. At one fell stroke all problems go away.
It wasn't on the ballot paper so it is the thing most likely to happen. Of course call it what you want (if the EU lets us).
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.
I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.
Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
yes, but the episodes on Netflix are longer, I think.
The one I am watching at the moment is 1hr 40 mins long so perhaps.
Didn't notice it on BBC but I might not have anyway.
The episodes on the BBC were 60 minutes each.
Nick Turse wrote an excellent book on Vietnam, and a valuble antidote to US revisionism:
I had a cousin in Vietnam with the Australians. He came back a changed man, quite the peacenik for a career officer. Terrible arachnoiditis too, which he blamed on Agent Orange.
Contrary to the more recent wars, where we had overwhelming odds on our favour (not to say we couldn't have been killed), Vietnam was not a sure fire victory
One of the weirder things was that they (the US) seem to know it early on. In the recent Ken Burns documentary I'm sure there was a taped phone call from LBJ during his presidency admitting it was a lost cause but they had to keep on keeping on.
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see t brinkmanship.
follow the money is always the best advice
the people who claim they worry most about NI are the same ones who two years ago didnt give a shit about the place or its inhabitants.
even Leo doesnt give a shit about it, he' just doing some easing brit bashing because he has an election coming up and he has the Commission on side
What relevance does any of that have to the negotiations? If you "follow the money" the only conclusion you can come to is that it's in no-one's interests for the UK to leave the single market and customs union, therefore all sides will contrive to ensure that's the outcome using whichever political expedient comes to hand. Your own logic suggests the UK will capitulate and regard it as a success.
my going in position has always been Brexit will be pretty much like what we have today only with a solid guarantee of no further integration.
The rest of what I "think" is simply things you make up when you run out of arguments.
Im quite happy with a soft Brexit
Do you think Ireland is putting a soft Brexit at risk? Objectively it's hard to see how given that the UK's current position is not a soft Brexit, so risking no deal (which isn't sustainable for the UK) in order to soften it looks like a value bet.
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
Yes and it is not relevant to the point the Irish are talking to the EU about
Of course if a rogue vehicle broke the seals that would be a matter for the Irish and EU
The better answer to @viwcodes question is to count the Irish Lorries in at Dover and out at Holyhead, if nessecary via a refunded bond.
More work for customs and exercise mind you, and an increase in bureaucracy.
why should we do that ? Whats in it for us ?
You of all people should realise that the application of logic is not appropriate to the NI situation.
There can't be a hard border. There can't be an Irish Sea border. The thing that's got to give is freedom of movement. At one fell stroke all problems go away.
It wasn't on the ballot paper so it is the thing most likely to happen. Of course call it what you want (if the EU lets us).
I think youre at cross purposes on this were talking landbridge Dover to Holyhead
So holding fire and to ease the conference. At last acting like grown ups
I imagine TM could come out of this with a fine legacy
I really doubt this whole Brexiteer alliance idea. They're not 'giving May extra time' - should they exist as a group they're admitting that they have no power to do anything other than unseat the government, and they know that'd be the daftest thing to do.
The best way to get Brexit of whatever flavour you want is to get plain old Brexit to start with and then add the flavour. The worst path to Brexit of whatever flavour you want is to insist on that flavour and finish up with no Brexit at all. I'm not suggesting that there aren't Brexiteers too thick to understand this, but the vast majority of sentient beings will see this clearly.
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
Yes and it is not relevant to the point the Irish are talking to the EU about
Of course if a rogue vehicle broke the seals that would be a matter for the Irish and EU
The better answer to @viwcodes question is to count the Irish Lorries in at Dover and out at Holyhead, if nessecary via a refunded bond.
More work for customs and exercise mind you, and an increase in bureaucracy.
why should we do that ? Whats in it for us ?
Road charges?
it;s a cut throat negotiaiton
fuck em
and I say that as a citizen of the Republic of Ireland
Yes, its nice to have another passport, my Australian connections may get me one too.
Always nice to be able to leave with the other Leavers.
Ive never left, us NI folks have always had the right to dual citizenship, surpised you werent looking at all those dour presbyterians in your family
The last one left for the South seas as missionaries in the 1870's. My dour Presbyterian ancestors were ethnically Scots-Irish and Scots, but born in various parts of the British Empire, so had British passports.
I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.
I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.
Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
yes, but the episodes on Netflix are longer, I think.
The one I am watching at the moment is 1hr 40 mins long so perhaps.
Didn't notice it on BBC but I might not have anyway.
The episodes on the BBC were 60 minutes each.
Nick Turse wrote an excellent book on Vietnam, and a valuble antidote to US revisionism:
I had a cousin in Vietnam with the Australians. He came back a changed man, quite the peacenik for a career officer. Terrible arachnoiditis too, which he blamed on Agent Orange.
Contrary to the more recent wars, where we had overwhelming odds on our favour (not to say we couldn't have been killed), Vietnam was not a sure fire victory
One of the weirder things was that they (the US) seem to know it early on. In the recent Ken Burns documentary I'm sure there was a taped phone call from LBJ during his presidency admitting it was a lost cause but they had to keep on keeping on.
So holding fire and to ease the conference. At last acting like grown ups
I imagine TM could come out of this with a fine legacy
I really doubt this whole Brexiteer alliance idea. They're not 'giving May extra time' - should they exist as a group they're admitting that they have no power to do anything other than unseat the government, and they know that'd be the daftest thing to do.
The best way to get Brexit of whatever flavour you want is to get plain old Brexit to start with and then add the flavour. The worst path to Brexit of whatever flavour you want is to insist on that flavour and finish up with no Brexit at all. I'm not suggesting that there aren't Brexiteers too thick to understand this, but the vast majority of sentient beings will see this clearly.
Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson
find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.
The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.
The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins
I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
I think it's a misconception to see t brinkmanship.
follow the money is always the best advice
the people who claim they worry most about NI are the same ones who two years ago didnt give a shit about the place or its inhabitants.
even Leo doesnt give a shit about it, he' just doing some easing brit bashing because he has an election coming up and he has the Commission on side
What relevance does any of that have to the negotiations? If you "follow the money" the only conclusion you can come to is that it's in no-one's interests for the UK to leave the single market and customs union, therefore all sides will contrive to ensure that's the outcome using whichever political expedient comes to hand. Your own logic suggests the UK will capitulate and regard it as a success.
my going in position has always been Brexit will be pretty much like what we have today only with a solid guarantee of no further integration.
The rest of what I "think" is simply things you make up when you run out of arguments.
Im quite happy with a soft Brexit
Do you think Ireland is putting a soft Brexit at risk? Objectively it's hard to see how given that the UK's current position is not a soft Brexit, so risking no deal (which isn't sustainable for the UK) in order to soften it looks like a value bet.
As I have pointed out I think Ireland has already banked a soft Brexit.
It's risk now is having banked it, it is woefully ill prepared if anything goes wrong and that sort of turns the Irish question around with Ireland now having bigger risks than the UK.
hence a hostage since there isnt much time to do much contingency work, But the btits are too soft to take much advantage of it.
EU negotiations ALWAYS go down to the last 48 hours. Brexit will go down to the wire as well.
But we do seem to have had minds focussed by a recent realisation that No Deal was becoming a distinct possibility. And an acceptance that is a really, really shitty outcome for the EU as much as for the UK.
Chequers is dead, but there does seem to be a renwed determination to find something that does work.
Ok. I trade twice as much ( and growing) with the rest of the world compared to the EU. I am not going to “lose” EU business because of Brexit but I might gain better a access elsewhere.
To give a concrete example: we have a contract in Europe that’s up for renewal after three years next month. Just had our sales guy sent over. Had a chat about, price, quality, delivery , (not just in time), usual stuff. All ok. Brexit not mentioned once. Not once. Nor has it been by any of my suppliers, customers, or bloody anyone outside this forum for twenty six months. The pant wetting in here ( not you doc - just a general point) by people who do not actually trade, make stuff and ship it round the world is laughable.
It. Is. Just. Not. Being. Talked. About. Out. There. Not in my world.
Meanwhile if ( big if I accept, a new arrangement could get say Brazil fo lower their officious customs practices I might sell a lot more there. So Bre if might, just might ( and only might) help there.
What it is not going to cause is the end of my world, despite the fervent desire of many that it will.
I guess she's there until she's finished selling Brexit down the river then...
#ToriesOut
"Boris Johnson wasn’t going to endorse “alternative plan” and now it’s not happening"
Probably because there isn't an alternative plan that doesn't just read 'Cripes, erm, I mean, crikey, we seem to have, erm, erm, did we really, crikey, erm, erm ... anyone remember wiff-waff?"
Hmm .... my first thought on seeing that front page was “Is she pregnant?”
My stepfather had two uncanny abilities. He could always tell which was the first born of twins. And he could always tell when women were pregnant - often before they even knew.
That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?
I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It theses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.
Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
Liverpool.
So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
Liverpool isn't.
We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
Yes and it is not relevant to the point the Irish are talking to the EU about
Of course if a rogue vehicle broke the seals that would be a matter for the Irish and EU
The better answer to @viwcodes question is to count the Irish Lorries in at Dover and out at Holyhead, if nessecary via a refunded bond.
More work for customs and exercise mind you, and an increase in bureaucracy.
why should we do that ? Whats in it for us ?
You of all people should realise that the application of logic is not appropriate to the NI situation.
There can't be a hard border. There can't be an Irish Sea border. The thing that's got to give is freedom of movement. At one fell stroke all problems go away.
It wasn't on the ballot paper so it is the thing most likely to happen. Of course call it what you want (if the EU lets us).
I think youre at cross purposes on this were talking landbridge Dover to Holyhead
Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.
Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?
Or is it a Zionist smear?
Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
Appointed by the British.
If the British hadn't been involved he would have taken over the equivalent preceding position on his half brother's death. I don't think we selected him, just expediently approved him.
The books of Paul Berman are very good on the WW2 period and after re the Grand Mufti and his impact on other Arab leaders (eg he was a bit of a mentor to Yasser Arafat). Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, Is good on Israeli history and he does try to cover the Arab perspective.
I think you perhaps need to go back a bit further than that. Daniel Heller’s Jabotinsky’s Children is a very good book indeed on the rise of interwar Polish Zionism, which recognises the complexities and contradictions of the period (it’s notable, for example, that the Polish democrats were rather more antisemetic than the Polish fascists...).
Thanks to you and @Foxy for the book recommendations.
Ok. I trade twice as much ( and growing) with the rest of the world compared to the EU. I am not going to “lose” EU business because of Brexit but I might gain better a access elsewhere.
To give a concrete example: we have a contract in Europe that’s up for renewal after three years next month. Just had our sales guy sent over. Had a chat about, price, quality, delivery , (not just in time), usual stuff. All ok. Brexit not mentioned once. Not once. Nor has it been by any of my suppliers, customers, or bloody anyone outside this forum for twenty six months. The pant wetting in here ( not you doc - just a general point) by people who do not actually trade, make stuff and ship it round the world is laughable.
It. Is. Just. Not. Being. Talked. About. Out. There. Not in my world.
Meanwhile if ( big if I accept, a new arrangement could get say Brazil fo lower their officious customs practices I might sell a lot more there. So Bre if might, just might ( and only might) help there.
What it is not going to cause is the end of my world, despite the fervent desire of many that it will.
In my business the biggest current risk is the EU trying to stymie the import of antique books (and at the same time ruin London’s thriving position as a world antiques capital).
That's how I've read it on Twitter, though not seen anything definitive.
I presume you mean kicking out of the Kavanaugh hearing, rather than the Senate ?
In any event, the released documents sound as though the ought not to have been kept confidential - for example: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/09/06/kavanaugh-leaked-docs-roe-wade-809129 One of those confidential documents, obtained by POLITICO, shows Kavanaugh leaving the door open to the high court overturning Roe v. Wade. “I am not sure that all legal scholars refer to Roe as the settled law of the land at the Supreme Court level since [the] Court can always overrule its precedent, and three current Justices on the Court would do so,” President Donald Trump’s nominee wrote in 2003...
Why on earth should that not be made public in the context of Supreme Court nomination hearings ?
Cornyn read aloud from rules stating that a senator who discloses “the secret or confidential business” of the Senate could be “liable ... to suffer expulsion.”...
Given expulsion from the Senate requires a two thirds majority, I think the right wing blowhard can safely be ignored.
The Democrat plan is probably to get the Senate away from the confirmation hearing and onto anything else, even if it’s the impeachment of one of their own. They’re going to try and run the clock down to the elections without Kavanaugh being confirmed, much as the Republicans did with Obama’s pick a couple of years ago (but without the numerical advantage the GOP had in 2016).
There's nothing the Dems can do. This is all show. The Republicans can stop hearings at any time and move straight to a vote.
Comments
(Yes I know I’m opening a wide open goal for Remainers to joke, but I cannot resist the pun).
the people who claim they worry most about NI are the same ones who two years ago didnt give a shit about the place or its inhabitants.
even Leo doesnt give a shit about it, he' just doing some easing brit bashing because he has an election coming up and he has the Commission on side
https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1037808431246266370
Daniel Heller’s Jabotinsky’s Children is a very good book indeed on the rise of interwar Polish Zionism, which recognises the complexities and contradictions of the period (it’s notable, for example, that the Polish democrats were rather more antisemetic than the Polish fascists...).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939
Not one of our top moments in history.
This Dublin, Holyhead, Calais thing is the reality dawning that a nice long sail down the Irish Sea, turn left at the Scillys, and then settling in for a nice long passage down the Channel to dock Zeebrugge or Rotterdam or wherever, is, from an Irish business perspective, batshit crazy, whatever bollocks Brussels comes out with about North Sea Corridors.
First smell of fudge out of Ireland?
If so good.
The rest of what I "think" is simply things you make up when you run out of arguments.
Im quite happy with a soft Brexit
Of course if a rogue vehicle broke the seals that would be a matter for the Irish and EU
Not the government if that helps! Both the DUP/ERG can rightly say that a border in the Irish Sea is unthinkable.
And at the same time an land actual border is something all sides have said they don't want.
The government is piggy in the middle.
The only seeming workable option is for the UK as a whole to stay in the SM:CU. But that means FoM so...
A coup left so close to Brexit day... sounds up to the normal level of Brexit planning by the headbangers.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1037808680975179777
https://profilebooks.com/on-the-eve.html
However, support flips round after Brexit. When asked whether Mrs May should hang on after Brexit negotiations are complete, 28 per cent want her to stay, 45 per cent want her to stand down and 27 per cent do not know.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/08/kavanaugh-wanted-ken-starr-to-ask-bill-clinton-these-wildly-lewd-questions/
‘lawyerly tricks’, forsooth.
More work for customs and exercise mind you, and an increase in bureaucracy.
Tim O'Brien was one of the series consultants (and is interviewed near the end). His Vietnam fiction books are well worth a read. One of my favourite authors.
Our business has moved from about 1% to 40% none U.K. or EU in 20 years. I fully expect that trend to continue.
Time and demographics are not on your side. Stop being so little European. There’s a world out there if you look.
Maybe something to do with Boris meeting the chief whip today and also knowing he needs to prevent a complete collapse of his support among conservative mps
I imagine TM could come out of this with a fine legacy
fuck em
and I say that as a citizen of the Republic of Ireland
And paid for it with his life.
But he saved 50,000 Jews in the process.
What is it about the EU that is stopping our service exports at present?
Why would losing the large EU market help export elsewhere?
Always nice to be able to leave with the other Leavers.
Round 1: Go now 34, 15 go after Brexit, 28 stay on indefinitely
Go after Brexit is eliminated
Round 2: Go now 34+X, stay on 28+y
Unless nearly 4/5 of the transfers say stay on...
This poll almost certainly says TMay should GO NOW by your favoured electoral method.
There can't be a hard border. There can't be an Irish Sea border. The thing that's got to give is freedom of movement. At one fell stroke all problems go away.
It wasn't on the ballot paper so it is the thing most likely to happen. Of course call it what you want (if the EU lets us).
The best way to get Brexit of whatever flavour you want is to get plain old Brexit to start with and then add the flavour. The worst path to Brexit of whatever flavour you want is to insist on that flavour and finish up with no Brexit at all. I'm not suggesting that there aren't Brexiteers too thick to understand this, but the vast majority of sentient beings will see this clearly.
May's Brexit is it.
NEW THREAD
#ToriesOut
It's risk now is having banked it, it is woefully ill prepared if anything goes wrong and that sort of turns the Irish question around with Ireland now having bigger risks than the UK.
hence a hostage since there isnt much time to do much contingency work, But the btits are too soft to take much advantage of it.
If only we had a french negotiator on our side
But we do seem to have had minds focussed by a recent realisation that No Deal was becoming a distinct possibility. And an acceptance that is a really, really shitty outcome for the EU as much as for the UK.
Chequers is dead, but there does seem to be a renwed determination to find something that does work.
Ok. I trade twice as much ( and growing) with the rest of the world compared to the EU. I am not going to “lose” EU business because of Brexit but I might gain better a access elsewhere.
To give a concrete example: we have a contract in Europe that’s up for renewal after three years next month. Just had our sales guy sent over. Had a chat about, price, quality, delivery , (not just in time), usual stuff. All ok. Brexit not mentioned once. Not once. Nor has it been by any of my suppliers, customers, or bloody anyone outside this forum for twenty six months. The pant wetting in here ( not you doc - just a general point) by people who do not actually trade, make stuff and ship it round the world is laughable.
It. Is. Just. Not. Being. Talked. About. Out. There. Not in my world.
Meanwhile if ( big if I accept, a new arrangement could get say Brazil fo lower their officious customs practices I might sell a lot more there. So Bre if might, just might ( and only might) help there.
What it is not going to cause is the end of my world, despite the fervent desire of many that it will.
Probably because there isn't an alternative plan that doesn't just read 'Cripes, erm, I mean, crikey, we seem to have, erm, erm, did we really, crikey, erm, erm ... anyone remember wiff-waff?"
He'd have known!
Irish expecting fun with Trump.
Coveney also being very conciliatory on lots of issues - including Trump Brexit and Karen Bradley
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/donald-trumps-visit-to-ireland-will-definitely-be-controversial-simon-coveney-37292760.html