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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    Boris, David and Gove had a carefully thought through plan, didn't they???????
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781
    @RCS - I like your videos, you say some interesting things. "Man in shorts on holiday expresses his opinion" would be the latest conclusion though.

    What are you sure you're an expert on? I might ask you a question on that subject. What are you not an expert on? Hey, I'll ask someone who is.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    alex. said:

    Alistair said:

    Only just catching up on the USA supreme court nomination process. Kavanaugh was asked a suuuuuuper specific question which made him look punch drunk before he proceed to go "I do not recall" in response.

    https://twitter.com/AdamWeinstein/status/1037548131825659910?s=19

    When I first saw that clip I assumed it was just a joke with different scenes spliced together.
    It was an unanswerable question using lawyerly tricks to try to trap somebody into potentially unwitting perjury or just look shifty.
    Seemed like a pretty easy yes or no to me.
  • On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.

    They do contribute it is the HGV Road User Levy. About 10 quid a day but UK lorries can offset it against vehicle duty so it is net zero cost to UK hauliers.
  • Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    Boris, David and Gove had a carefully thought through plan, didn't they???????
    I like Gove and his present agenda which is very popular with my very environment and animal friendly family.

    Boris is not Boris, he is unsuitable for Office and if Davis shares a platform with Farage that draws the line for me and I will support a second referendum. The idea infuriates both myself and my wife
  • On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Fair point. If the EU, or more accurately the member states, restrict movement of UK lorries, which they will absent an EEA type deal, the UK can retaliate against Ireland and restrict its lorries. The problem is that it isn't Ireland restricting UK lorries so the retaliation against Ireland won't have direct effect.

    To be clear, the arrangement Big G is taking about is for the EU to treat goods exported from the continent and subsequently imported into Ireland via the UK as if they had never left the EU. It's a measure internal to the EU.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    How much do the lorries add to the economy of Holyhead, as opposed to the cars and tourists?

    Maybe if the Irish seek to benefit from using the U.K. as a land bridge, they might want to reconsider their obstructive negotiating position on NI and the border that they know they don’t want and would never build? There’s a deal to be done that minimises disruption, but it relies on all sides negotiating in good faith.
  • Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.

    They do contribute it is the HGV Road User Levy. About 10 quid a day but UK lorries can offset it against vehicle duty so it is net zero cost to UK hauliers.
    It sustains the port of Holyhead with thousands of jobs and Anglesey's economy
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    The country that has the most to lose from Brexit belatedly works out it's been on the wrong side?

    That'd be daft!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited September 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    How much do the lorries add to the economy of Holyhead, as opposed to the cars and tourists?

    Maybe if the Irish seek to benefit from using the U.K. as a land bridge, they might want to reconsider their obstructive negotiating position on NI and the border that they know they don’t want and would never build? There’s a deal to be done that minimises disruption, but it relies on all sides negotiating in good faith.
    It keeps Holyhead open.
  • She has gone up in my estimation for being honest.
    She actually comes across very well in the interview as a whole.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2018

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So they should. If there's no deal, or just a very minimal deal, they have a lot to lose, probably even more than us. That's why I've been baffled by their intransigence on the backstop nonsense, which has actually made it more likely that there will be no deal, no backstop, and a hard border.

    Of course, this also has to be seen in the context of internal Irish politics, with the coalition agreement between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael coming to an end, unless they can reach agreement on renewing it. It seems to me that Leo Varadkar is clunky and naive compared with Enda Kenny, on both the coalition and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
  • Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    If the British hadn't been involved he would have taken over the equivalent preceding position on his half brother's death. I don't think we selected him, just expediently approved him.
  • Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    Boris, David and Gove had a carefully thought through plan, didn't they???????
    I like Gove and his present agenda which is very popular with my very environment and animal friendly family.

    Boris is not Boris, he is unsuitable for Office and if Davis shares a platform with Farage that draws the line for me and I will support a second referendum. The idea infuriates both myself and my wife
    I don't see any reason why what David Davis does or doesn't do should drive your support for a second referendum.

    Unless of course you were just looking for an excuse to support one.
  • FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Fair point. If the EU, or more accurately the member states, restrict movement of UK lorries, which they will absent an EEA type deal, the UK can retaliate against Ireland and restrict its lorries. The problem is that it isn't Ireland restricting UK lorries so the retaliation against Ireland won't have direct effect.

    To be clear, the arrangement Big G is taking about is for the EU to treat goods exported from the continent and subsequently imported into Ireland via the UK as if they had never left the EU. It's a measure internal to the EU.
    And vice versa
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Fair point. If the EU, or more accurately the member states, restrict movement of UK lorries, which they will absent an EEA type deal, the UK can retaliate against Ireland and restrict its lorries. The problem is that it isn't Ireland restricting UK lorries so the retaliation against Ireland won't have direct effect.

    To be clear, the arrangement Big G is taking about is for the EU to treat goods exported from the continent and subsequently imported into Ireland via the UK as if they had never left the EU. It's a measure internal to the EU.
    No it is not just a matter for the EU. What if those goods are suddenly when in the UK diverted to a UK company or just offloaded here?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So they should. If there's no deal, or just a very minimal deal, they have a lot to lose, probably even more than us. That's why I've been baffled by their intransigence on the backstop nonsense, which has actually made it more likely that there will be no deal, no backstop, and a hard border.

    Of course, this also has to be seen in the context of internal Irish politics, with the coalition agreement between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael coming to an end, unless they can reach agreement on renewing it. It seems to me that Leo Varadkar is clunky and naive compared with Enda Kenny, on both the coalition and Brexit.
    +1

  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Alistair said:

    alex. said:

    Alistair said:

    Only just catching up on the USA supreme court nomination process. Kavanaugh was asked a suuuuuuper specific question which made him look punch drunk before he proceed to go "I do not recall" in response.

    https://twitter.com/AdamWeinstein/status/1037548131825659910?s=19

    When I first saw that clip I assumed it was just a joke with different scenes spliced together.
    It was an unanswerable question using lawyerly tricks to try to trap somebody into potentially unwitting perjury or just look shifty.
    Seemed like a pretty easy yes or no to me.
    Not really. Do you know the background of every individual you might have had a conversation with in an informal/social setting? The only way he could answer "no" is if he had never had conversations about Mueller's investigation (hardly credible) or if he knew the background of everyone he had had such a conversation with.

  • Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    It isn't. That's why Chequers is the right deal for the UK.

    It preserves our car and aerospace industries intact whilst we can pivot away the 80% of our economy that is based on services and develop and regulate it accordingly. We can do our own trade deals. We get back our seat at the WTO. We can put more controls on free movement. We save money. And we quit the EU's political structures.

    We basically go back to just the common market in goods we used to have, plus some bilateral security and defence arrangements in our national interest.

    What's not to like?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    edited September 2018

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.

    They do contribute it is the HGV Road User Levy. About 10 quid a day but UK lorries can offset it against vehicle duty so it is net zero cost to UK hauliers.
    Fair point, I didn’t know about Road User Levy.
    http://www.multiservicetolls.com/wp-content/uploads/HGV-Levy-Bands-Rates-Tables-English-0114-Final.pdf
    The top rate is £10 a day, or £1,000 a year for a 40 tonne arctic, which seems awfully low compared to the VED charged on British lorries and the negative externalities of foreign lorries using the U.K. as a bypass road.

    My wider point was that European politicians are starting to come round to the idea of getting the deal done, which is a recent and significant change in attitude on their part and to be welcomed.

    Edit: Richard Nabavi is making the same point more eloquently.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    I managed one half slice of pineapple and anchovy pizza.

    Anymore and I would have barfed.

    That’s because you put anchovies on it!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    She has gone up in my estimation for being honest.
    She actually comes across very well in the interview as a whole.
    She didn't understand why nationalists weren't voting for Unionist parties? There's being honest.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301

    I managed one half slice of pineapple and anchovy pizza.

    Anymore and I would have barfed.

    Pineappple *and* anchovies ?

    Bleeurgh.

    I’d have preferred liver and fava beans without the Chianti chaser.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Fair point. If the EU, or more accurately the member states, restrict movement of UK lorries, which they will absent an EEA type deal, the UK can retaliate against Ireland and restrict its lorries. The problem is that it isn't Ireland restricting UK lorries so the retaliation against Ireland won't have direct effect.

    To be clear, the arrangement Big G is taking about is for the EU to treat goods exported from the continent and subsequently imported into Ireland via the UK as if they had never left the EU. It's a measure internal to the EU.
    No it is not just a matter for the EU. What if those goods are suddenly when in the UK diverted to a UK company or just offloaded here?
    The measure.itself is internal to the EU but what the UK does is a separate issue. The UK could choose to choke off supplies and put Ireland under siege.
  • Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    Boris, David and Gove had a carefully thought through plan, didn't they???????
    I like Gove and his present agenda which is very popular with my very environment and animal friendly family.

    Boris is not Boris, he is unsuitable for Office and if Davis shares a platform with Farage that draws the line for me and I will support a second referendum. The idea infuriates both myself and my wife
    I don't see any reason why what David Davis does or doesn't do should drive your support for a second referendum.

    Unless of course you were just looking for an excuse to support one.
    Farage is a red rag to a bull as far as I am concerned and David Davis appearing with him is just unacceptable to me. I have no problem with Davis or Boris speaking at the conference but to be honest I believe that they failed when they had their chance and at the critical moment their actions could result in a hard Brexit that I have consistantly opposed.

    I do not need an excuse as I hope I am honest in my views and they have all along been to trust TM to get a deal. I will support a second referendum if no deal is the likely outcome , driven by the hard right
  • On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So they should. If there's no deal, or just a very minimal deal, they have a lot to lose, probably even more than us. That's why I've been baffled by their intransigence on the backstop nonsense, which has actually made it more likely that there will be no deal, no backstop, and a hard border.

    Of course, this also has to be seen in the context of internal Irish politics, with the coalition agreement between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael coming to an end, unless they can reach agreement on renewing it. It seems to me that Leo Varadkar is clunky and naive compared with Enda Kenny, on both the coalition and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    Because Eire carries a lot of historical baggage when it comes to its relationship with the UK and the temptation to say "yeah, us and the EU's army" may have been too great to resist.

    That depends on their interests and those of the EU continuing to align, which isn't necessarily the case.
  • FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Fair point. If the EU, or more accurately the member states, restrict movement of UK lorries, which they will absent an EEA type deal, the UK can retaliate against Ireland and restrict its lorries. The problem is that it isn't Ireland restricting UK lorries so the retaliation against Ireland won't have direct effect.

    To be clear, the arrangement Big G is taking about is for the EU to treat goods exported from the continent and subsequently imported into Ireland via the UK as if they had never left the EU. It's a measure internal to the EU.
    No it is not just a matter for the EU. What if those goods are suddenly when in the UK diverted to a UK company or just offloaded here?
    They will be custom sealed in Calais and Ireland
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So they should. If there's no deal, or just a very minimal deal, they have a lot to lose, probably even more than us. That's why I've been baffled by their intransigence on the backstop nonsense, which has actually made it more likely that there will be no deal, no backstop, and a hard border.

    Of course, this also has to be seen in the context of internal Irish politics, with the coalition agreement between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael coming to an end, unless they can reach agreement on renewing it. It seems to me that Leo Varadkar is clunky and naive compared with Enda Kenny, on both the coalition and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    I don't think that analysis is correct. The consensus in Ireland for the backstop is near universal.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Fair point. If the EU, or more accurately the member states, restrict movement of UK lorries, which they will absent an EEA type deal, the UK can retaliate against Ireland and restrict its lorries. The problem is that it isn't Ireland restricting UK lorries so the retaliation against Ireland won't have direct effect.

    To be clear, the arrangement Big G is taking about is for the EU to treat goods exported from the continent and subsequently imported into Ireland via the UK as if they had never left the EU. It's a measure internal to the EU.
    No it is not just a matter for the EU. What if those goods are suddenly when in the UK diverted to a UK company or just offloaded here?
    They will be custom sealed in Calais and Ireland
    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.
  • RobD said:

    I managed one half slice of pineapple and anchovy pizza.

    Anymore and I would have barfed.

    That’s because you put anchovies on it!
    Anchovies are the best pizza topping.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    edited September 2018
    RobD said:

    I managed one half slice of pineapple and anchovy pizza.

    Anymore and I would have barfed.

    That’s because you put anchovies on it!
    No, the anchovies were just a (misguided) attempt to mask the vileness of the pineapple topping, I think.

    A noble effort on behalf of our nation, though, for which TSE should be saluted. A minor honour might even be appropriate.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Fair point. If the EU, or more accurately the member states, restrict movement of UK lorries, which they will absent an EEA type deal, the UK can retaliate against Ireland and restrict its lorries. The problem is that it isn't Ireland restricting UK lorries so the retaliation against Ireland won't have direct effect.

    To be clear, the arrangement Big G is taking about is for the EU to treat goods exported from the continent and subsequently imported into Ireland via the UK as if they had never left the EU. It's a measure internal to the EU.
    No it is not just a matter for the EU. What if those goods are suddenly when in the UK diverted to a UK company or just offloaded here?
    The measure.itself is internal to the EU but what the UK does is a separate issue. The UK could choose to choke off supplies and put Ireland under siege.

    The UK will not put Ireland under "siege" if they talk to the UK and we agree with the transit arrangements. They just talk to the EU and get an agreement, then we can stop 100% of the lorries on arrival and departure, if we choose to.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    Yes, our record in the 30 years between 1918 and 1948 in the Mandate in terms of perfidy and incompetence is quite astonishing. That anyone thinks we can usefully contribute to resolving the issues that we created beggars belief. Perhaps not the worst legacy of British Imperialism, but surely in the top 10.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Only just catching up on the USA supreme court nomination process. Kavanaugh was asked a suuuuuuper specific question which made him look punch drunk before he proceed to go "I do not recall" in response.

    https://twitter.com/AdamWeinstein/status/1037548131825659910?s=19

    When I first saw that clip I assumed it was just a joke with different scenes spliced together.
    Now I've just seen the leaked e-mails. The ones where he clearly received stolen Democratic documents. Given he denied under oath receiving stolen Democratic docs that's stone cold perjury is it not?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,141


    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.

    what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    edited September 2018

    RobD said:

    I managed one half slice of pineapple and anchovy pizza.

    Anymore and I would have barfed.

    That’s because you put anchovies on it!
    Anchovies are the best pizza topping.
    I would agree, no pizza is complete without anchovies and black olives. In retrospect perhaps not my best recommendation to accompany pineapple though. I think the sweetness of ham is needed.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    viewcode said:



    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.

    what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?

    I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    alex. said:

    Alistair said:

    alex. said:

    Alistair said:

    Only just catching up on the USA supreme court nomination process. Kavanaugh was asked a suuuuuuper specific question which made him look punch drunk before he proceed to go "I do not recall" in response.

    https://twitter.com/AdamWeinstein/status/1037548131825659910?s=19

    When I first saw that clip I assumed it was just a joke with different scenes spliced together.
    It was an unanswerable question using lawyerly tricks to try to trap somebody into potentially unwitting perjury or just look shifty.
    Seemed like a pretty easy yes or no to me.
    Not really. Do you know the background of every individual you might have had a conversation with in an informal/social setting? The only way he could answer "no" is if he had never had conversations about Mueller's investigation (hardly credible) or if he knew the background of everyone he had had such a conversation with.

    When my Job is to be a judge who will have to rule on the case I'd be pretty careful about who I spoke to about the case. You know, in case I was accidentally creating a mis-trial situation.
  • Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    I managed one half slice of pineapple and anchovy pizza.

    Anymore and I would have barfed.

    That’s because you put anchovies on it!
    No, the anchovies were just a (misguided) attempt to mask the vileness of the pineapple topping, I think.

    A noble effort on behalf of our nation, though, for which TSE should be saluted. A minor honour might even be appropriate.
    I need a GCMG and Victoria Cross.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    o/t

    I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.

    I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    If the British hadn't been involved he would have taken over the equivalent preceding position on his half brother's death. I don't think we selected him, just expediently approved him.
    The books of Paul Berman are very good on the WW2 period and after re the Grand Mufti and his impact on other Arab leaders (eg he was a bit of a mentor to Yasser Arafat). Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, Is good on Israeli history and he does try to cover the Arab perspective.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    alex. said:

    Alistair said:

    Only just catching up on the USA supreme court nomination process. Kavanaugh was asked a suuuuuuper specific question which made him look punch drunk before he proceed to go "I do not recall" in response.

    https://twitter.com/AdamWeinstein/status/1037548131825659910?s=19

    When I first saw that clip I assumed it was just a joke with different scenes spliced together.
    It was an unanswerable question using lawyerly tricks to try to trap somebody into potentially unwitting perjury or just look shifty.
    Surely a potential SCOTUS Justice should be adept at coping with lawyerly tricks?

  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    TOPPING said:

    o/t

    I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.

    I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.

    Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    TOPPING said:

    o/t

    I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.

    I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.

    Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
    yes, but the episodes on Netflix are longer, I think.
  • Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    It isn't. That's why Chequers is the right deal for the UK.

    It preserves our car and aerospace industries intact whilst we can pivot away the 80% of our economy that is based on services and develop and regulate it accordingly. We can do our own trade deals. We get back our seat at the WTO. We can put more controls on free movement. We save money. And we quit the EU's political structures.

    We basically go back to just the common market in goods we used to have, plus some bilateral security and defence arrangements in our national interest.

    What's not to like?
    Had to pop out. And on this we are on the same page and no need for a hard Brexit and or a second referendum
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,141

    viewcode said:



    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.

    what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?

    I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
    Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the
    liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.

    Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
  • Cyclefree said:

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    If the British hadn't been involved he would have taken over the equivalent preceding position on his half brother's death. I don't think we selected him, just expediently approved him.
    The books of Paul Berman are very good on the WW2 period and after re the Grand Mufti and his impact on other Arab leaders (eg he was a bit of a mentor to Yasser Arafat). Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, Is good on Israeli history and he does try to cover the Arab perspective.
    Thanks very much, I'll look them up.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    TOPPING said:

    o/t

    I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.

    I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.

    Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
    Yes - but I think it is the unexpurgated version.
  • Foxy said:

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    Yes, our record in the 30 years between 1918 and 1948 in the Mandate in terms of perfidy and incompetence is quite astonishing. That anyone thinks we can usefully contribute to resolving the issues that we created beggars belief. Perhaps not the worst legacy of British Imperialism, but surely in the top 10.
    In terms of facilitating the creation of the state of Israel it was very successful.

    It almost certainly couldn't have happened without the British military protecting mass Jewish immigration.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    edited September 2018
    FF43 said:



    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So they should. If there's no deal, or just a very minimal deal, they have a lot to lose, probably even more than us. That's why I've been baffled by their intransigence on the backstop nonsense, which has actually made it more likely that there will be no deal, no backstop, and a hard border.

    Of course, this also has to be seen in the context of internal Irish politics, with the coalition agreement between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael coming to an end, unless they can reach agreement on renewing it. It seems to me that Leo Varadkar is clunky and naive compared with Enda Kenny, on both the coalition and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    I don't think that analysis is correct. The consensus in Ireland for the backstop is near universal.
    based on what exactly ?

    Most Irish people are thinking less about brexit than the british public, read an Irish paper it's hardly mentioned.

    Ive been pointing out consistently over the summer that the Irish have made next to no preparations for a hard Brexit. That is still the case only noiw theres even less time to do anything about it.

    Ireland has now very kindly volunteered to be our hostage in negotiations.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    Yes, our record in the 30 years between 1918 and 1948 in the Mandate in terms of perfidy and incompetence is quite astonishing. That anyone thinks we can usefully contribute to resolving the issues that we created beggars belief. Perhaps not the worst legacy of British Imperialism, but surely in the top 10.
    In terms of facilitating the creation of the state of Israel it was very successful.

    It almost certainly couldn't have happened without the British military protecting mass Jewish immigration.
    Though we did stop Jewish migration in 1936, and of course post war too.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    o/t

    I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.

    I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.

    Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
    yes, but the episodes on Netflix are longer, I think.
    The one I am watching at the moment is 1hr 40 mins long so perhaps.

    Didn't notice it on BBC but I might not have anyway.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,141

    Cyclefree said:

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    If the British hadn't been involved he would have taken over the equivalent preceding position on his half brother's death. I don't think we selected him, just expediently approved him.
    The books of Paul Berman are very good on the WW2 period and after re the Grand Mufti and his impact on other Arab leaders (eg he was a bit of a mentor to Yasser Arafat). Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, Is good on Israeli history and he does try to cover the Arab perspective.
    Thanks very much, I'll look them up.
    Max Hastings's latest book is on Vietnam and is published in hardback this month.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited September 2018
    viewcode said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    If the British hadn't been involved he would have taken over the equivalent preceding position on his half brother's death. I don't think we selected him, just expediently approved him.
    The books of Paul Berman are very good on the WW2 period and after re the Grand Mufti and his impact on other Arab leaders (eg he was a bit of a mentor to Yasser Arafat). Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, Is good on Israeli history and he does try to cover the Arab perspective.
    Thanks very much, I'll look them up.
    Max Hastings's latest book is on Vietnam and is published in hardback this month.
    Actually @viewcode Thanks for all your watching recommendations. They were much appreciated.
  • viewcode said:

    viewcode said:



    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.

    what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?

    I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
    Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the
    liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.

    Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
    That comes under the fine print and really is an internal EU matter
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    FF43 said:



    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So they should. If there's no deal, or just a very minimal deal, they have a lot to lose, probably even more than us. That's why I've been baffled by their intransigence on the backstop nonsense, which has actually made it more likely that there will be no deal, no backstop, and a hard border.

    Of course, this also has to be seen in the context of internal Irish politics, with the coalition agreement between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael coming to an end, unless they can reach agreement on renewing it. It seems to me that Leo Varadkar is clunky and naive compared with Enda Kenny, on both the coalition and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    I don't think that analysis is correct. The consensus in Ireland for the backstop is near universal.
    On the streets of Dublin they talk of little else.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,141
    TOPPING said:

    viewcode said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    If the British hadn't been involved he would have taken over the equivalent preceding position on his half brother's death. I don't think we selected him, just expediently approved him.
    The books of Paul Berman are very good on the WW2 period and after re the Grand Mufti and his impact on other Arab leaders (eg he was a bit of a mentor to Yasser Arafat). Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, Is good on Israeli history and he does try to cover the Arab perspective.
    Thanks very much, I'll look them up.
    Max Hastings's latest book is on Vietnam and is published in hardback this month.
    Actually @viewcode Thanks for all your watching recommendations. They were much appreciated.
    You're welcome
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:



    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.

    what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?

    I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
    Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the
    liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.

    Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
    Liverpool.
  • FF43 said:



    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So made it more likely that there will be no deal, no backstop, and a hard border.

    Of course, this also has to be seen in the context of internal Irish politics, with the coalition agreement between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael coming to an end, unless they can reach agreement on renewing it. It seems to me that Leo Varadkar is clunky and naive compared with Enda Kenny, on both the coalition and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    I don't think that analysis is correct. The consensus in Ireland for the backstop is near universal.
    based on what exactly ?

    Most Irish people are thinking less about brexit than the british public, read an Irish paper it's hardly mentioned.

    Ive been pointing out consistently over the summer that the Irish have made next to no preparations for a hard Brexit. That is still the case only noiw theres even less time to do anything about it.

    Ireland has now very kindly volunteered to be our hostage in negotiations.
    You must be reading a different Irish press to me.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/revenue-preparing-for-full-customs-checks-post-brexit-1.3619606

    The Revenue Commissioners are preparing for full customs checks involving officials from a number of Government departments in case no deal is reached on Brexit, a senior Revenue official has said.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    o/t

    I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.

    I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.

    Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
    yes, but the episodes on Netflix are longer, I think.
    The one I am watching at the moment is 1hr 40 mins long so perhaps.

    Didn't notice it on BBC but I might not have anyway.
    The episodes on the BBC were 60 minutes each.

    Nick Turse wrote an excellent book on Vietnam, and a valuble antidote to US revisionism:

    http://americanempireproject.com/kill-anything-that-moves/

    I had a cousin in Vietnam with the Australians. He came back a changed man, quite the peacenik for a career officer. Terrible arachnoiditis too, which he blamed on Agent Orange.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:



    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.

    what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?

    I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
    Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the
    liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.

    Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
    Liverpool.
    So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    edited September 2018

    FF43 said:



    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So made it more likely that there will bn and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    I don't think that analysis is correct. The consensus in Ireland for the backstop is near universal.
    based on what exactly ?

    Most Irish people are thinking less about brexit than the british public, read an Irish paper it's hardly mentioned.

    Ive been pointing out consistently over the summer that the Irish have made next to no preparations for a hard Brexit. That is still the case only noiw theres even less time to do anything about it.

    Ireland has now very kindly volunteered to be our hostage in negotiations.
    You must be reading a different Irish press to me.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/revenue-preparing-for-full-customs-checks-post-brexit-1.3619606

    The Revenue Commissioners are preparing for full customs checks involving officials from a number of Government departments in case no deal is reached on Brexit, a senior Revenue official has said.
    No unlike you Im not looking at what they say Im looking at what they are doing and thats even less than the UK government

    perhaps youd like to explain how HMG has no time to do anything and its armageddon, but when the Irish govt make an announcement today of things they still have to do. all is ok and under control. It isnt Ireland has made less preparations than HMG.

    They are our hostage
  • See this is what they teach you in PPE.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,141
    Deleted
    For once, we are in agreement
  • Foxy said:

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    Yes, our record in the 30 years between 1918 and 1948 in the Mandate in terms of perfidy and incompetence is quite astonishing. That anyone thinks we can usefully contribute to resolving the issues that we created beggars belief. Perhaps not the worst legacy of British Imperialism, but surely in the top 10.
    In terms of facilitating the creation of the state of Israel it was very successful.

    It almost certainly couldn't have happened without the British military protecting mass Jewish immigration.
    The UN created the state of Israel. Britain abstained when the General Assembly voted on implementing the partition plan for Palestine.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781
    Foxy said:

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    Yes, our record in the 30 years between 1918 and 1948 in the Mandate in terms of perfidy and incompetence is quite astonishing. That anyone thinks we can usefully contribute to resolving the issues that we created beggars belief. Perhaps not the worst legacy of British Imperialism, but surely in the top 10.
    That's a bit harsh - people sacrificed their lives trying to make the middle east peaceful - some were British. We can usefully contribute, but we should do so when asked.

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    RIP Burt reynolds
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    FF43 said:



    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So made it more likely that there will bn and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    I don't think that analysis is correct. The consensus in Ireland for the backstop is near universal.
    based on what exactly ?

    Most Irish people are thinking less about brexit than the british public, read an Irish paper it's hardly mentioned.

    Ive been pointing out consistently over the summer that the Irish have made next to no preparations for a hard Brexit. That is still the case only noiw theres even less time to do anything about it.

    Ireland has now very kindly volunteered to be our hostage in negotiations.
    You must be reading a different Irish press to me.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/revenue-preparing-for-full-customs-checks-post-brexit-1.3619606

    The Revenue Commissioners are preparing for full customs checks involving officials from a number of Government departments in case no deal is reached on Brexit, a senior Revenue official has said.
    No unlike you Im not looking at what they say Im looking at what they are doing and thats even less than the UK government

    perhaps youd like to explain how HMG has no time to do anything and its armageddon, but when the Irish govt make an announcement today of things they still have to do. all is ok and under control. It isnt Ifrteland has made less preparations than HMG.

    They are our hostage
    You are untypically willfully refusing to recognise the dynamics of the border. It is an asymmetric power play. The UK and Ireland are not equally equipped. Even Slugger O'Toole gets that.
  • Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:



    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.

    what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?

    I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
    Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the
    liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.

    Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
    Liverpool.
    So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
    Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    o/t

    I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.

    I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.

    Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
    yes, but the episodes on Netflix are longer, I think.
    The one I am watching at the moment is 1hr 40 mins long so perhaps.

    Didn't notice it on BBC but I might not have anyway.
    The episodes on the BBC were 60 minutes each.

    Nick Turse wrote an excellent book on Vietnam, and a valuble antidote to US revisionism:

    http://americanempireproject.com/kill-anything-that-moves/

    I had a cousin in Vietnam with the Australians. He came back a changed man, quite the peacenik for a career officer. Terrible arachnoiditis too, which he blamed on Agent Orange.
    Contrary to the more recent wars, where we had overwhelming odds on our favour (not to say we couldn't have been killed), Vietnam was not a sure fire victory
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    Blimey. That said, once had to design a map showing council control in NI. Just like the ones in the U.K. Was the most boring map. They’re all grey. The local government system in NI is amazingly complex.
  • Foxy said:

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    Yes, our record in the 30 years between 1918 and 1948 in the Mandate in terms of perfidy and incompetence is quite astonishing. That anyone thinks we can usefully contribute to resolving the issues that we created beggars belief. Perhaps not the worst legacy of British Imperialism, but surely in the top 10.
    In terms of facilitating the creation of the state of Israel it was very successful.

    It almost certainly couldn't have happened without the British military protecting mass Jewish immigration.
    The UN created the state of Israel. Britain abstained when the General Assembly voted on implementing the partition plan for Palestine.
    Yes, I know. That wasn't my point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:



    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.

    what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?

    I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
    Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the
    liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.

    Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
    Liverpool.
    So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
    Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
    Liverpool isn't.
  • TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    o/t

    I asked a while ago for recommendations of what to watch as I had some time to do so. At the time I watched the documentary about Flint Michigan and also one about Claressa Shields, a boxer from Flint. Both great.

    I am now watching the Netflix series on Vietnam. It is fantastic.

    Is the Netflix series on Vietnam the one that was shown on the BBC last year?
    yes, but the episodes on Netflix are longer, I think.
    The one I am watching at the moment is 1hr 40 mins long so perhaps.

    Didn't notice it on BBC but I might not have anyway.
    The episodes on the BBC were 60 minutes each.

    Nick Turse wrote an excellent book on Vietnam, and a valuble antidote to US revisionism:

    http://americanempireproject.com/kill-anything-that-moves/

    I had a cousin in Vietnam with the Australians. He came back a changed man, quite the peacenik for a career officer. Terrible arachnoiditis too, which he blamed on Agent Orange.
    Contrary to the more recent wars, where we had overwhelming odds on our favour (not to say we couldn't have been killed), Vietnam was not a sure fire victory
    One of the weirder things was that they (the US) seem to know it early on. In the recent Ken Burns documentary I'm sure there was a taped phone call from LBJ during his presidency admitting it was a lost cause but they had to keep on keeping on.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Having only a little knowledge of it, I did a little reading today about the time around when Israel was created.

    Have I been reliably informed that the grand mufti of Palestine in 1948 was a Nazi collaborating, holocaust advocating associate of Hitler and Mussolini, and that he was the man the nascent Israeli state had to try to negotiate with?

    Or is it a Zionist smear?

    Ask Ken Livingstone. He'll know. For sure.
    Appointed by the British.
    Yes, our record in the 30 years between 1918 and 1948 in the Mandate in terms of perfidy and incompetence is quite astonishing. That anyone thinks we can usefully contribute to resolving the issues that we created beggars belief. Perhaps not the worst legacy of British Imperialism, but surely in the top 10.
    In terms of facilitating the creation of the state of Israel it was very successful.

    It almost certainly couldn't have happened without the British military protecting mass Jewish immigration.
    Though we did stop Jewish migration in 1936, and of course post war too.
    Mitigated not eliminated.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    edited September 2018
    TOPPING said:

    FF43 said:



    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So made it more likely that there will bn and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    I don't think that analysis is correct. The consensus in Ireland for the backstop is near universal.
    based on what exactly ?

    Most Irish people are thinking less about brexit than the british public, read an Irish paper it's hardly mentioned.

    Ive been pointing out con press to me.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/revenue-preparing-for-full-customs-checks-post-brexit-1.3619606

    The Revenue Commissir Revenue official has said.
    No unlike you Im not look

    They are our hostage
    You are untypically willfully refusing to recognise the dynamics of the border. It is an asymmetric power play. The UK and Ireland are not equally equipped. Even Slugger O'Toole gets that.
    Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson

    find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.

    The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.

    The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins

    I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    In 1996 Reynolds filed for bankruptcy with nearly $11m in debts.

    Back in the day when $11m was still some serious money.

    RIP, legend.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    TOPPING said:

    FF43 said:



    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So made it more likely that there will bn and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    I don't think that analysis is correct. The consensus in Ireland for the backstop is near universal.
    based on what exactly ?

    Most Irish people are thinking less about brexit than the british public, read an Irish paper it's hardly mentioned.

    Ive been pointing out consistently over the summer that the Irish have made next to no preparations for a hard Brexit. That is still the case only noiw theres even less time to do anything about it.

    Ireland has now very kindly volunteered to be our hostage in negotiations.
    You must be reading a different Irish press to me.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/revenue-preparing-for-full-customs-checks-post-brexit-1.3619606

    The Revenue Commissioners are preparing for full customs checks involving officials from a number of Government departments in case no deal is reached on Brexit, a senior Revenue official has said.
    No unlike you Im not looking at what they say Im looking at what they are doing and thats even less than the UK government

    perhaps youd like to explain how HMG has no time to do anything and its armageddon, but when the Irish govt make an announcement today of things they still have to do. all is ok and under control. It isnt Ifrteland has made less preparations than HMG.

    They are our hostage
    You are untypically willfully refusing to recognise the dynamics of the border. It is an asymmetric power play. The UK and Ireland are not equally equipped. Even Slugger O'Toole gets that.
    Who has the power in your view?
  • Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    It isn't. That's why Chequers is the right deal for the UK.

    It preserves our car and aerospace industries intact whilst we can pivot away the 80% of our economy that is based on services and develop and regulate it accordingly. We can do our own trade deals. We get back our seat at the WTO. We can put more controls on free movement. We save money. And we quit the EU's political structures.

    We basically go back to just the common market in goods we used to have, plus some bilateral security and defence arrangements in our national interest.

    What's not to like?
    Had to pop out. And on this we are on the same page and no need for a hard Brexit and or a second referendum
    Glad to hear it. We need to get behind the Government if we want to respect democracy and stop Corbyn.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    @Topping - trail getting too long


    Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson

    find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.

    The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.

    The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins

    I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:



    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a deal. Maybe the Irish are belatedly coming round to an understanding that their strategy of threatening to torpedo a deal, in order to ensure that there is a deal, is, if I might be allowed a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So they should. If there's no deal, or just a very minimal deal, they have a lot to lose, probably even more than us. That's why I've been baffled by their intransigence on the backstop nonsense, which has actually made it more likely that there will be no deal, no backstop, and a hard border.

    Of course, this also has to be seen in the context of internal Irish politics, with the coalition agreement between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael coming to an end, unless they can reach agreement on renewing it. It seems to me that Leo Varadkar is clunky and naive compared with Enda Kenny, on both the coalition and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    I don't think that analysis is correct. The consensus in Ireland for the backstop is near universal.
    based on what exactly ?

    Most Irish people are thinking less about brexit than the british public, read an Irish paper it's hardly mentioned.

    Ive been pointing out consistently over the summer that the Irish have made next to no preparations for a hard Brexit. That is still the case only noiw theres even less time to do anything about it.

    Ireland has now very kindly volunteered to be our hostage in negotiations.
    True, but it works the other way too. The uncomfortable truth is that the EU is uninterested in a partnership of equals with the UK. The exception is Ireland. The UK could reach out to Ireland to promote its interest within the EU. It chooses instead a condescending aggression towards Ireland that is utterly counterproductive.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited September 2018
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:



    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.

    what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?

    I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
    Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the
    liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.

    Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
    Liverpool.
    So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
    Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
    Liverpool isn't.
    We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Omnium said:

    @RCS - I like your videos, you say some interesting things. "Man in shorts on holiday expresses his opinion" would be the latest conclusion though.

    What are you sure you're an expert on? I might ask you a question on that subject. What are you not an expert on? Hey, I'll ask someone who is.

    LOL! Fair question.

    I think I'm pretty good on macroeconomics (and probably better at micro). I also have a good longstanding interest in the energy sector, and have spoken at a number of conferences (as well as writing a front page article for Platts).
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    My supposition is that it's a nobody who's so deeply ashamed of their complicity they are tryi g to construct a narrative that they are the true heros.
  • Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    It isn't. That's why Chequers is the right deal for the UK.

    It preserves our car and aerospace industries intact whilst we can pivot away the 80% of our economy that is based on services and develop and regulate it accordingly. We can do our own trade deals. We get back our seat at the WTO. We can put more controls on free movement. We save money. And we quit the EU's political structures.

    We basically go back to just the common market in goods we used to have, plus some bilateral security and defence arrangements in our national interest.

    What's not to like?
    Had to pop out. And on this we are on the same page and no need for a hard Brexit and or a second referendum
    Glad to hear it. We need to get behind the Government if we want to respect democracy and stop Corbyn.
    I have been totally behind TM in her negotiations. My anger today was to think that Davis would share a platform with Farage and if they succeeded in a hard Brexit I would support a second referendum as no deal is an absolute no for me
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    edited September 2018
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    Need to ask us well.
    Why - you are not seriously suggesting we could say no. It will be in the deal
    Of course, but for that there has to be a a stereotype, rather.. Irish?
    This movement today suggests to me Ireland is getting a bit panicky
    So they should. If there's no deal, or j and Brexit:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-wants-early-election-and-to-be-able-to-blame-it-on-fianna-fil-37284163.html

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/martin-rebuffs-varadkar-s-call-for-talks-on-extending-deal-1.3617836
    I don't think that analysis is correct. The consensus in Ireland for the backstop is near universal.
    based on what exactly ?

    Most Irish people are thinking less about brexit than the british public, read an Irish paper it's hardly mentioned.

    Ive been pointing out consistently over the summer that the Irish have made next to no preparations for a hard Brexit. That is still the case only noiw theres even less time to do anything about it.

    Ireland has now very kindly volunteered to be our hostage in negotiations.
    True, but it works the other way too. The uncomfortable truth is that the EU is uninterested in a partnership of equals with the UK. The exception is Ireland. The UK could reach out to Ireland to promote its interest within the EU. It chooses instead a condescending aggression towards Ireland that is utterly counterproductive.
    as I pointed out below I suspect the Irish government have got a quid pro quo for keeping the border alive, and thats on on corporate tax. They need to keep a low tax rate and have been under pressure from France and Germany to raise it . This is what they are afraid of.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/us-tech-firm-leaves-ireland-for-us-after-trump-tax-cuts-37268690.html

    If this becomes a trend they have a big hole in their finances
  • @Topping - trail getting too long


    Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson

    find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.

    The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.

    The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins

    I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.

    I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:



    That is fine but we need to approve the seal and check it at the departure point of the UK to make sure dodgy goods have not been unloaded in the UK.

    what happens if the "departure point of the UK" is on the ireland/northern Ireland border?

    I do not understand your question, because the initial question was about the UK land bridge for Irish lorries. i.e Holyhead to Dover.
    Fair enough. Consider the question suitably modified. A lorry arrives at Dover with its seal. It is destined for Holyhead. It changes course and catches the
    liverpool to belfast ferry. It breaks the seal at some point and offloads its cargo in the UK. It then carries on and crosses the open border in northern Ireland into the republic.

    Question: at what point (if any) does it get checked?
    Liverpool.
    So we have customs at the Irish Sea crossings? Mr Barnier will be happy.
    Calais and Dun Laoghaire are in France and ROI
    Liverpool isn't.
    We are talking of the Calais - Dover - Holyhead - Dun Laoghaire route with Irish hgv's sealed in Calais or vice versa in Dun Laoghaire as suggested by the ROI to the EU to retain their UK land bridge. Nothing to do with Liverpool
    Did you read @viewcode's question and @ralphmalph's response?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    @Topping - trail getting too long


    Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson

    find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.

    The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.

    The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins

    I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.

    I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
    The U.K. will decouple over time just like Ireland did from the U.K. post 1922.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Sandpit said:

    On Brexit looks like Ireland is seeking an agreement with the EU to keep the UK as a land bridge using Calais-Dover-Holyhead. Assume realising a sea route to Rotterdam is not practical.

    It is the first sensible suggestion I have heard from Ireland. You should see the number of Irish HGV's rolling down the A55 through Colwyn Bay daily

    But why would Britain want hundreds of Irish lorries that contribute nothing except pollution, congestion and road wear? Especially so if the French are determined to turn the M20 into a lorry park.
    Lifeblood of Holyhead and the Island economy.

    Hope Wales is not seen as collateral as well as Airbus
    It isn't. That's why Chequers is the right deal for the UK.

    It preserves our car and aerospace industries intact whilst we can pivot away the 80% of our economy that is based on services and develop and regulate it accordingly. We can do our own trade deals. We get back our seat at the WTO. We can put more controls on free movement. We save money. And we quit the EU's political structures.

    We basically go back to just the common market in goods we used to have, plus some bilateral security and defence arrangements in our national interest.

    What's not to like?
    Had to pop out. And on this we are on the same page and no need for a hard Brexit and or a second referendum
    Glad to hear it. We need to get behind the Government if we want to respect democracy and stop Corbyn.
    I have been totally behind TM in her negotiations. My anger today was to think that Davis would share a platform with Farage and if they succeeded in a hard Brexit I would support a second referendum as no deal is an absolute no for me
    Big G, even Chequers is hard Brexit. Leaving SM, CU and ending FOM
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    France pleads for a Brexit Deal as toilet shortage looms.
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-france/hurry-up-calais-region-urges-eu-uk-leaders-as-no-deal-brexit-looms-idUKKCN1LM2F1

    "Some 7,000 trucks go through its ports and the Channel Tunnel rail crossing every day, and a ‘hard Brexit’ whereby the UK leaves the EU’s single market would require building new customs and sanitary infrastructure. "

    It is like a film "Carry on Brexit" Sid James as Juncker, Kenneth Williams as Selymar, Charles Hawtrey as Barnier, Joan Sims as May.
  • welshowl said:

    @Topping - trail getting too long


    Not at all. The dynamics of the border is negotiation class first lesson

    find a point which hurts the other side more than you and which it's easy to concede for a larger gain.

    The EU have simply done their homework well and were boosted by the 2017 election when May screwed up and became dependent on the DUP. The cards didnt fall the UKs way. Full marks to Barnier.

    The North is simply a negotiating card. You do not crash a £600bn trade reltaionship on £3bn trade at the margins

    I would hazard a guess that the Irish government have got a quid pro quo on corporate tax for pushing the point on the EUs behalf which they sort of need. Trumps recent tax cuts are more of an issue to the Irish goverbemnt than the North.

    I think it's a misconception to see this as a trade negotiation. It's a political negotiation, and despite the best intentions of the Brexiteers, there is still no realistic prospect that the UK economy will decouple itself from the EU. Therefore it's really only a question of the terms on which the UK will participate in the EU system. You're right that Ireland is useful negotiating leverage for the EU, but that doesn't mean that Ireland is merely a pawn, nor that the UK will come out best from employing brinkmanship.
    The U.K. will decouple over time just like Ireland did from the U.K. post 1922.
    What forces will make it happen? The world economy is very different from then.

    In any case, the likes of Alanbrooke still see Ireland as an economic vassal of the UK to this day.
This discussion has been closed.