Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Exactly. Corbyn has ideas. He doesn't have policies. Cyclefree's thesis of a mild mannered extremist is an interesting one, but I don't think it really applies to Corbyn. Yes, some of his ideas have the potential to cause damage, just as Brexit will damage, but neither is an extremist position. Corbyn associates with terrorists and lies about it and there's a thuggish element to his faction. Those are my concerns on that score.
A real choice Mr Corbyn apologist? Are you having a laugh? The choice the country has is between an incompetent Tory party with a highly mediocre leader that is being slowly throttled by brexit fanatics, and a labour party led by a racist anti-Semite who got 2 Es at A-level who wants Britain to follow Venezuela down the economic plughole.
This is choice, but it is of two varying degrees of self harm. It is the choice of Bedlam
Certainly she was. And I wouldn't say she was particularly mildly spoken. Its a nice thread header though.
I see more differences than similarities between the three. Corbyn has policies, Mogg has a vision, and Boris has the ambition to flexibly invent either.
Nonetheless, Thatcher was not a demagogue. When she started showing signs of demagogury she was pushed out
That was back when the Tories had both brains and backbones rather than the lily livered sycophants they are today
Hear Hear
sad to see youre not PM material malc :-)
you could introduce the dishonours list and hand out turnips
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Exactly. Corbyn has ideas. He doesn't have policies. Cyclefree's thesis of a mild mannered extremist is an interesting one, but I don't think it really applies to Corbyn. Yes, some of his ideas have the potential to cause damage, just as Brexit will damage, but neither is an extremist position. Corbyn associates with terrorists and lies about it and there's a thuggish element to his faction. Those are my concerns on that score.
The mild mannered bit of Corbyn's supposed persona of a mild mannered extremist doesn't survive first contact with the enemy a half-way decent interviewer. There is a quick temper just beneath the veneer of nice old Grandpa Corbyn.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as sensationalist as anything put forward by Leave. Both campaigns were heaps of drivel piled on more drivel.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
Morning Alan, how goes it, hope all is well with you and family
On topic, one lesson I think other politicians could learn from Corbyn and Rees-Mogg is to treat their audience with respect, and not patronise them.
Of course, there are obvious “audiences” that neither Corbyn nor Rees-Mogg respect much, Jewish and europhile ones, for instance, but I think it’s very easy to miss just how much voters hate being lectured or talked down to, as the likes of Soubry, Clarke and Lammy are wont to do.
Surely it would be Israel supporters rather than Jewish people, I can't see europhiles occupying the same prominent supporting roles for Rees-Mogg that some Jewish people do for Corbyn.
Edit: Or to take it back to JRM he could have Europeans who like him and who he likes and agrees with.
He’s a close friend of Chris Patten, dating back to his time in Hong Kong, so that’s not wholly true.
I was thinking more a political supporter in the style of Jon Lansman* rather than a friend. So someone politically supportive rather than personally. I assume Lansman and Corbyn do get on but you could imagine Lansman being similarly supportive regardless. Although I confused the issue by getting into liking and agreeing with people in the last line which is where Chris Patten and JRM would come in.
*Which isn't literally to say leader of his political support faction.
Anyone that is a friend of Corbyn, or indeed a supporter, is by extension an anti-Semite and therefore as much scum of the earth as a friend or supporter of Nick Griffin
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as sensationalist as anything put forward by Leave. Both campaigns were heaps of drivel piled on more drivel.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
Morning Alan, how goes it, hope all is well with you and family
Just back from Ireland
had a cracking week in Killarney and Clare. Took the Mrs for afternoon tea at Ashford Castle to cheer her up as shes had a really tough year at your place. Theyve lost the plot.
Chris Evans to leave R2. Wonder if he is another that wouldn't take a pay cut?
Another uselesss overpaid tw**, good riddance. BBC certainly needs a clearout of overpaid under talented staff. Time they were made to compete for their cushy numbers.
Certainly she was. And I wouldn't say she was particularly mildly spoken. Its a nice thread header though.
I see more differences than similarities between the three. Corbyn has policies, Mogg has a vision, and Boris has the ambition to flexibly invent either.
Nonetheless, Thatcher was not a demagogue. When she started showing signs of demagogury she was pushed out
That was back when the Tories had both brains and backbones rather than the lily livered sycophants they are today
Hear Hear
sad to see youre not PM material malc :-)
you could introduce the dishonours list and hand out turnips
I would sort them out Alan, be a few getting a boot up the erchie for sure
Lovely quote I’ve just seen. 'With time fast running out, the Conservatives are still fighting over which bit of cliff to drive off, at what speed and who gets to be in the driver’s seat as we all plummet to earth.’
And Good Morning ladies and gentleman. What happened to all the doom and gloom about the cricket?
Rather than driving over a cliff, perhaps a better analogy is that the Conservatives and the EU are both engaged in a game of high-speed chicken, neither able to move the steering wheel as they hurtle towards each other.....
With the EU driving an artic and the UK on a bicycle ...
[Edit: I have st seen Foxy's comment. We are obviously on the same page this morning]
There you go again, doing down the UK motor industry.
We are in an Aston Martin, obviously.
Fitted with an ejector seat.
A mythical beast part of a shagged out US entertainment franchise? I see where you're going..
The only two Tories who inspire even an ounce of passion for amongst Tory voters I meet on the doorstep at the moment are Boris and Mogg. May is a dull technocrat and while there is a place for that in the current tedium of the Brexit negotiations as Corbyn proved voters are getting bored with dull centrist technocrats
Yes, Hitler proposed the same argument in the 1930s. There came a point when many Germans would have loved to have returned to dull centrist technocrats
The fact that there are idiots out there that think those two buffoons have the credentials to hold the highest office in the land (and ditto for Corbyn supporters) merely points to the deficiencies of our educational system
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as sensationalist as anything put forward by Leave. Both campaigns were heaps of drivel piled on more drivel.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
Morning Alan, how goes it, hope all is well with you and family
Just back from Ireland
had a cracking week in Killarney and Clare. Took the Mrs for afternoon tea at Ashford Castle to cheer her up as shes had a really tough year at your place. Theyve lost the plot.
You near packing it in yet ?
Yes they really have gone crazy. I work from the house and get to pretty much do what I want , just look at the big deals, so will hang about for a bit yet. Would end up full time babysitter if I went now. As long as I am still enjoying it I will hang about a bit. No doubt there will be a charm offensive now they have slashed and burned everything.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
One result of Grosjean's disqualification is that it moves Haas and Renault from being tied on 84 to a 10 point advantage for Renault (86 to 76). Bit of relief for them, as Haas has been doing rather well recently.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as sensationalist as anything put forward by Leave. Both campaigns were heaps of drivel piled on more drivel.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
Morning Alan, how goes it, hope all is well with you and family
Just back from Ireland
had a cracking week in Killarney and Clare. Took the Mrs for afternoon tea at Ashford Castle to cheer her up as shes had a really tough year at your place. Theyve lost the plot.
You near packing it in yet ?
Yes they really have gone crazy. I work from the house and get to pretty much do what I want , just look at the big deals, so will hang about for a bit yet. Would end up full time babysitter if I went now. As long as I am still enjoying it I will hang about a bit. No doubt there will be a charm offensive now they have slashed and burned everything.
it's totally nuts. All their best people are thinking of getting out.
Anyone that is a friend of Corbyn, or indeed a supporter, is by extension an anti-Semite and therefore as much scum of the earth as a friend or supporter of Nick Griffin
I love you too, darling. Not a fan of this politeness thing, eh?
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
Chris Evans to leave R2. Wonder if he is another that wouldn't take a pay cut?
Another uselesss overpaid tw**, good riddance. BBC certainly needs a clearout of overpaid under talented staff. Time they were made to compete for their cushy numbers.
The one thing you can say about Chris Evans is that he doesn't appear on TV channels run for the propaganda purposes of a foreign despot like a certain ex-leader of the SNP. As I said the other day, the SNP has a pretty nasty history of providing succour to fascist regimes, so I suppose you could say that Salmond is being consistent in that particular tradition.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
The problem Remain had was that it didn’t really listen and wasn’t really offering people a choice.
Well Cameron's deal was so bad they had nothing to sell. Vote remain and it's ever closer union.
Interesting reading All Out War, it didn't take the Remain campaign moments before it was decreed that any mention of The Renegotiation was on the Verboten list. Cameron's "deal" was just so shite that it couldn't be spoken of, let alone form the centrpiece of their campaign.
The only two Tories who inspire even an ounce of passion for amongst Tory voters I meet on the doorstep at the moment are Boris and Mogg. May is a dull technocrat and while there is a place for that in the current tedium of the Brexit negotiations as Corbyn proved voters are getting bored with dull centrist technocrats
Yes, Hitler proposed the same argument in the 1930s. There came a point when many Germans would have loved to have returned to dull centrist technocrats
The fact that there are idiots out there that think those two buffoons have the credentials to hold the highest office in the land (and ditto for Corbyn supporters) merely points to the deficiencies of our educational system
Chris Evans to leave R2. Wonder if he is another that wouldn't take a pay cut?
Another uselesss overpaid tw**, good riddance. BBC certainly needs a clearout of overpaid under talented staff. Time they were made to compete for their cushy numbers.
Chris Evans gets 9 million listeners, and is more popular than the sainted Terry Wogan ever was. It is easy for radio bosses to tell who is worth the money on these one microphone shows because ratings can be compared with adjoining programmes, rival stations' equivalent programmes, and with stand-in presenters when the main host is on holiday.
Anyone that is a friend of Corbyn, or indeed a supporter, is by extension an anti-Semite and therefore as much scum of the earth as a friend or supporter of Nick Griffin
I love you too, darling. Not a fan of this politeness thing, eh?
No politeness necessary for anti-Semites. I would not be polite to Nick Griffin, so until there is a root and branch purge within Labour of racist anti-Semites including your friend Corbyn, then all of you that are not actively calling for his removal fall in the same scum filled bucket as far as I am concerned. Sorry if you find that impolite.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as sensationalist as anything put forward by Leave. Both campaigns were heaps of drivel piled on more drivel.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
£4,300 by 2030 was hardly armageddon. And luckily we had Mark Carney in place to avoid any short term downturn.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
The only two Tories who inspire even an ounce of passion for amongst Tory voters I meet on the doorstep at the moment are Boris and Mogg. May is a dull technocrat and while there is a place for that in the current tedium of the Brexit negotiations as Corbyn proved voters are getting bored with dull centrist technocrats
Yes, Hitler proposed the same argument in the 1930s. There came a point when many Germans would have loved to have returned to dull centrist technocrats
The fact that there are idiots out there that think those two buffoons have the credentials to hold the highest office in the land (and ditto for Corbyn supporters) merely points to the deficiencies of our educational system
Or alternatively the failure of the elite establishment to listen to their concerns
I have to say I am not sure that we have enough data to argue the above article. Elections happen so infrequently that it is difficult to argue with any consitency, and I would imagine there are better factors, such as being divided. The last 3 big changes of Government 2010, 1997 and 1979 it could be argued that the party of Government was divided and the opposition together. After that you are beyond my lifetime, and into the realms of history!
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
The problem Remain had was that it didn’t really listen and wasn’t really offering people a choice.
Same with free market capitalism vs the bright lights of the socialism as espoused by Jeremy Corbyn. The choice was sensible old let's keep with what has demonstrably worked for decades vs some idealised bullshit that its proponents couldn't even articulate.
The only two Tories who inspire even an ounce of passion for amongst Tory voters I meet on the doorstep at the moment are Boris and Mogg. May is a dull technocrat and while there is a place for that in the current tedium of the Brexit negotiations as Corbyn proved voters are getting bored with dull centrist technocrats
Yes, Hitler proposed the same argument in the 1930s. There came a point when many Germans would have loved to have returned to dull centrist technocrats
The fact that there are idiots out there that think those two buffoons have the credentials to hold the highest office in the land (and ditto for Corbyn supporters) merely points to the deficiencies of our educational system
Ooowwwooooga Godwin’s Law Klaxon
I had to look that up...quite funny I guess and there may be some truth in it. I will use Mao or Lenin in future just for variety
It is not widely enough known that their ideological hero, the now weirdly fashionable Karl Marx, was a raging anti-Semite. It’s true Marx came from a line of Rabbis, but he himself was baptised as a Lutheran, after his father converted.
In his 1844 tract, On The Jewish Question, Marx wrote: ‘What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Money is the jealous God of Israel. The Bill of Exchange is the real God of the Jew.’
And in an article for the New York Daily Tribune in 1856, the founder of Communism thundered: ‘We find every tyrant backed by a Jew . . . in truth the cravings of oppressors would be hopeless . . . if there were not a handful of Jews to ransack pockets. Here and there and everywhere, there is ever one of these little Jews ready to . . . place a little bit of a loan.
‘Thus do these loans, which are a curse to the people, a ruin to the holders, and a danger to the governments, become a blessing to the children of Judah.’
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Exactly. Corbyn has ideas. He doesn't have policies. Cyclefree's thesis of a mild mannered extremist is an interesting one, but I don't think it really applies to Corbyn. Yes, some of his ideas have the potential to cause damage, just as Brexit will damage, but neither is an extremist position. Corbyn associates with terrorists and lies about it and there's a thuggish element to his faction. Those are my concerns on that score.
The mild mannered bit of Corbyn's supposed persona of a mild mannered extremist doesn't survive first contact with the enemy a half-way decent interviewer. There is a quick temper just beneath the veneer of nice old Grandpa Corbyn.
In my experience a quick temper is completely consistent with the nice old Grandpa persona.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
The problem Remain had was that it didn’t really listen and wasn’t really offering people a choice.
they lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
Unpopular product = the means whereby millions have been lifted out of poverty and millions more have seen their living standards rise, barriers to trade decrease and association of neighbours increase.
Oh but what about the left behind of East Lincs? Bollocks. They weren't that left behind.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as sensationalist as anything put forward by Leave. Both campaigns were heaps of drivel piled on more drivel.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
£4,300 by 2030 was hardly armageddon. And luckily we had Mark Carney in place to avoid any short term downturn.
The only two Tories who inspire even an ounce of passion for amongst Tory voters I meet on the doorstep at the moment are Boris and Mogg. May is a dull technocrat and while there is a place for that in the current tedium of the Brexit negotiations as Corbyn proved voters are getting bored with dull centrist technocrats
Yes, Hitler proposed the same argument in the 1930s. There came a point when many Germans would have loved to have returned to dull centrist technocrats
The fact that there are idiots out there that think those two buffoons have the credentials to hold the highest office in the land (and ditto for Corbyn supporters) merely points to the deficiencies of our educational system
Or alternatively the failure of the elite establishment to listen to their concerns
Haha I love it when people who are touching the forelock to two old Etonians refer to the "Establishment". The irony is delicious
The British have always equated being well-spoken with being intelligent. It is a cultural cringe that has caused us no end of problems. It continues to this day. Our public school system has plenty to answer for, but perhaps its greatest crime is to take the mediocre sons and daughters of the rich, give them cut-glass accents and a self-belief that is way, way beyond their abilities.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
The problem Remain had was that it didn’t really listen and wasn’t really offering people a choice.
Same with free market capitalism vs the bright lights of the socialism as espoused by Jeremy Corbyn. The choice was sensible old let's keep with what has demonstrably worked for decades vs some idealised bullshit that its proponents couldn't even articulate.
The analogy is exact.
Except free market capitalism is not working in much of the developed world anymore.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
Nah, it was all down to the foreigners, Carlotta. I'm sure there were plenty of explanations of the gravity model of international trade available but people preferred to focus on things that they could read about. Such as too many foreigners. Not that 97% of them were affected, of course.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as sensationalist as anything put forward by Leave. Both campaigns were heaps of drivel piled on more drivel.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
£4,300 by 2030 was hardly armageddon. And luckily we had Mark Carney in place to avoid any short term downturn.
I voted Remain because I believed it would make standards of living in the UK lower than they would otherwise be, while making the UK less influential internationally, all for no discernible upside. It's all panning out pretty much as I expected.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the s
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various part contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
The problem Remain had was that it didn’t really listen and wasn’t really offering people a choice.
they lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
Unpopular product = the means whereby millions have been lifted out of poverty and millions more have seen their living standards rise, barriers to trade decrease and association of neighbours increase.
Oh but what about the left behind of East Lincs? Bollocks. They weren't that left behind.
lol
weve yet to see any causality between being in the organisation and and increased wealth. We were in lots of organisaions in the same period - WTO, UN, Nato, - any or all of those organisations could have contributed and millions would still be wealthier.
Your last point is just a snipe and shows that if you has understood life outside the SE you would have won. Remain seemed to forget a cabbage pickers vote counts the same as a hedge fund managers
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually connected with 48% of voters. Problem is that 52% chose to suck in putrid negativity about Europe. And yes, Ms Carlotta, lots of xenophobic lies were employed. Whether they were pivotal is debatable, but they were definitely there, and my anecdotal discussions with leaver voters would suggest to me that, regrettably, it did have traction. To deny that is naïve
The only two Tories who inspire even an ounce of passion for amongst Tory voters I meet on the doorstep at the moment are Boris and Mogg. May is a dull technocrat and while there is a place for that in the current tedium of the Brexit negotiations as Corbyn proved voters are getting bored with dull centrist technocrats
Yes, Hitler proposed the same argument in the 1930s. There came a point when many Germans would have loved to have returned to dull centrist technocrats
The fact that there are idiots out there that think those two buffoons have the credentials to hold the highest office in the land (and ditto for Corbyn supporters) merely points to the deficiencies of our educational system
Ooowwwooooga Godwin’s Law Klaxon
I had to look that up...quite funny I guess and there may be some truth in it. I will use Mao or Lenin in future just for variety
I think there are many lessons to be learned from the Inter war Weimar Republic in Germany but too many of the lessons end up with a moustachioed Austro-Germanic leader and as such I might be accused of hyperbole.
Here are my top three lessons though 1 - never trust a leader who wants to change leadership rules 2 - what people need is not necessarily what people want 3 - a deal that unfairly punishes one side over the other is not really a deal at all. It will fall apart as soon as practically possible
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Exactly. Corbyn has ideas. He doesn't have policies. Cyclefree's thesis of a mild mannered extremist is an interesting one, but I don't think it really applies to Corbyn. Yes, some of his ideas have the potential to cause damage, just as Brexit will damage, but neither is an extremist position. Corbyn associates with terrorists and lies about it and there's a thuggish element to his faction. Those are my concerns on that score.
The mild mannered bit of Corbyn's supposed persona of a mild mannered extremist doesn't survive first contact with the enemy a half-way decent interviewer. There is a quick temper just beneath the veneer of nice old Grandpa Corbyn.
In my experience a quick temper is completely consistent with the nice old Grandpa persona.
I don't know how he keeps as calm as he does to be honest, the constant level of attack and smear must be bloody exhausting. I am known as mild mannered by my friends (and I aim to be) but I don't think I could go through what Corbyn does and keep my cool like he does. I would have to come out and fight my corner to a much stronger degree.
The only two Tories who inspire even an ounce of passion for amongst Tory voters I meet on the doorstep at the moment are Boris and Mogg. May is a dull technocrat and while there is a place for that in the current tedium of the Brexit negotiations as Corbyn proved voters are getting bored with dull centrist technocrats
Yes, Hitler proposed the same argument in the 1930s. There came a point when many Germans would have loved to have returned to dull centrist technocrats
The fact that there are idiots out there that think those two buffoons have the credentials to hold the highest office in the land (and ditto for Corbyn supporters) merely points to the deficiencies of our educational system
I get the far-left - its delusions, its anti-Semitism, its prejudices, its factionalism and its dangers. But for the life of me the Tory right remains unfathomable. How anyone can look at Johnson and Rees Mogg and not see two dog-whistling, self-obsessed chancers with no understanding of how the world works is beyond me. I guess we need one of them to become PM before the level of their uselessness becomes apparent to all. As with Corbyn, though, the problem is that involves pissing all over the country.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
CCyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
The problem Remain had was that it didn’t really listen and wasn’t really offering people a choice.
Same with free market capitalism vs the bright lights of the socialism as espoused by Jeremy Corbyn. The choice was sensible old let's keep with what has demonstrably worked for decades vs some idealised bullshit that its proponents couldn't even articulate.
The analogy is exact.
Except free market capitalism is not working in much of the developed world anymore.
Is it not? I hadn't seen that. Short of a turbo-google I can safely say that it certainly has done to date. Indeed the only times it has failed has when one actor has introduced subsidies and distortions, such as American agricultural subsidies.
The main significance of this morning’s news is that hardcore Leavers have definitively declared any reachable deal a betrayal. It looks increasingly likely that Britain will leave the EU on a deal that commands no legitimacy on any side. That sounds healthy.
Er - have you not noticed that it is May that has proposed a deal (eg Soft Brexit which you have supported) and the EU that has declared today that is not a 'reachable deal'?
CETA is reachable, as long as the EU realise that they need to abandon the NI backstop. Even Nick Boles has realised that.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he c Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as sensationalist as anything put forward by Leave. Both campaigns were heaps of drivel piled on more drivel.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
£4,300 by 2030 was hardly armageddon. And luckily we had Mark Carney in place to avoid any short term downturn.
I voted Remain because I believed it would make standards of living in the UK lower than they would otherwise be, while making the UK less influential internationally, all for no discernible upside. It's all panning out pretty much as I expected.
whichever you look at it the UK is destined to be less influential, world demographics will dictate it. It's perhaps time we faced up to it and worked out what it means.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the s
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various part contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
The problem Remain had was that it didn’t really listen and wasn’t really offering people a choice.
they lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
Unpopular product = the means whereby millions have been lifted out of poverty and millions more have seen their living standards rise, barriers to trade decrease and association of neighbours increase.
Oh but what about the left behind of East Lincs? Bollocks. They weren't that left behind.
lol
weve yet to see any causality between being in the organisation and and increased wealth. We were in lots of organisaions in the same period - WTO, UN, Nato, - any or all of those organisations could have contributed and millions would still be wealthier.
Your last point is just a snipe and shows that if you has understood life outside the SE you would have won. Remain seemed to forget a cabbage pickers vote counts the same as a hedge fund managers
The cabbage pickers of course being Romanian.
I understood that there was no argument to the "I don't want any (more) foreigners" position.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he c Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as sensationalist as anything put forward by Leave. Both campaigns were heaps of drivel piled on more drivel.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
£4,300 by 2030 was hardly armageddon. And luckily we had Mark Carney in place to avoid any short term downturn.
I voted Remain because I believed it would make standards of living in the UK lower than they would otherwise be, while making the UK less influential internationally, all for no discernible upside. It's all panning out pretty much as I expected.
whichever you look at it the UK is destined to be less influential, world demographics will dictate it. It's perhaps time we faced up to it and worked out what it means.
Yep, I think that is fair. The buccaneering Brexiteers seem remarkably unwilling to understand where we are heading to, though. I suspect that with hard core English nationalists now taking over the Conservative party the end-game is no more UK.
Wonderful interview with Gisela Stuart on Radio 5. A poor interviewer but what a sham Gisesa turns out to be.......
Interviewer...."Well what would your plan be then?"
G.S. Erm.....er ..er ...um ...I don't ..I cant ....I think.... um ....um well the Checkers agreement is really just on the edge. We need a free trade agreement
Interviewer ....."That is an aspiration "what would YOUR solution be?"
G.S. Err.... Erm.....er ..er ...um ...I don't ..I cant ....I think.... um ....um..even Damien Green said...thought......um
Interviewer...."You have had many years to think about it...."
Proof if any was needed that in British politics all you need to do is ZIG when the rest of your party ZAGS and you make a name for yourself even when you have the intellect of a blancmange
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as sensationalist as anything put forward by Leave. Both campaigns were heaps of drivel piled on more drivel.
Are you telling me you personally actually believed it ?
£4,300 by 2030 was hardly armageddon. And luckily we had Mark Carney in place to avoid any short term downturn.
I voted Remain because I believed it would make standards of living in the UK lower than they would otherwise be, while making the UK less influential internationally, all for no discernible upside. It's all panning out pretty much as I expected.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
...
The mild mannered bit of Corbyn's supposed persona of a mild mannered extremist doesn't survive first contact with the enemy a half-way decent interviewer. There is a quick temper just beneath the veneer of nice old Grandpa Corbyn.
In my experience a quick temper is completely consistent with the nice old Grandpa persona.
I don't know how he keeps as calm as he does to be honest, the constant level of attack and smear must be bloody exhausting. I am known as mild mannered by my friends (and I aim to be) but I don't think I could go through what Corbyn does and keep my cool like he does. I would have to come out and fight my corner to a much stronger degree.
I wish he would. Let's have more like that video where he denounces NATO as the root cause of the cold war. Or perhaps he could explain the minor tweeks necessary to ensure that socialism will work this time.
And just in case we were in any doubt about the disastrous consequences of nationalisation we have the present example of Argentina whose previous government under de Kirchner did exactly that resulting in a collapsing economy and a desperate need to be bailed out by the IMF: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45392362
How many times does socialism have to be tried and failed before we all accept that it just does not work? You really would have thought that the collapse of the Soviet bloc and the fall of the Berlin wall in 1990 would have been enough. The evil brutality, poverty and despair that such state dominated societies always produce was surely exhibited for all time and anyone willing to think.
In the Communist Manifesto Marx demanded
A progressive income tax Abolition of child labour Free State provided education for all A central bank International institutions
These were radical ideas at the time (1848) but we are all Marxists now.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believ I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Exactly. Corbyn has ideas. He doesn't have policies. Cyclefree's thesis of a mild mannered extremist is an interesting one, but I don't think it really applies to Corbyn. Yes, some of his ideas have the potential to cause damage, just as Brexit will damage, but neither is an extremist position. Corbyn associates with terrorists and lies about it and there's a thuggish element to his faction. Those are my concerns on that score.
The mild mannered bit of Corbyn's supposed persona of a mild mannered extremist doesn't survive first contact with the enemy a half-way decent interviewer. There is a quick temper just beneath the veneer of nice old Grandpa Corbyn.
In my experience a quick temper is completely consistent with the nice old Grandpa persona.
I don't know how he keeps as calm as he does to be honest, the constant level of attack and smear must be bloody exhausting. I am known as mild mannered by my friends (and I aim to be) but I don't think I could go through what Corbyn does and keep my cool like he does. I would have to come out and fight my corner to a much stronger degree.
He doesn't fight because he knows that his accusers are telling it like it is.
If you came out fighting under such circumstances you would get a slapping for precisely that reason.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
CCyclefree alludes to.
I.agree to Brexit.
Corbyn change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
The problem Remain had was that it didn’t really listen and wasn’t really offering people a choice.
Same with free market capitalism vs the bright lights of the socialism as espoused by Jeremy Corbyn. The choice was sensible old let's keep with what has demonstrably worked for decades vs some idealised bullshit that its proponents couldn't even articulate.
The analogy is exact.
Except free market capitalism is not working in much of the developed world anymore.
Is it not? I hadn't seen that. Short of a turbo-google I can safely say that it certainly has done to date. Indeed the only times it has failed has when one actor has introduced subsidies and distortions, such as American agricultural subsidies.
It's clearly not. How else do you explain an old school, nostalgic, left-wing, anti-Semite like Jeremy Corbyn leading Labour and also being within spitting distance of the Conservative party in the polls? Free markets abhor protectionism - but that is what Brexit and Trumpism are all about. I wish it were otherwise. I am am a full-on, convinced capitalist - but the system is failing.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the s
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various part contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just chance.
The problem Remain had was that it didn’t really listen and wasn’t really offering people a choice.
they lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
Unpopular product = the means whereby millions have been lifted out of poverty and millions more have seen their living standards rise, barriers to trade decrease and association of neighbours increase.
Oh but what about the left behind of East Lincs? Bollocks. They weren't that left behind.
lol
weve yet to see any causality between being in the organisation and and increased wealth. We were in lots of organisaions in the same period - WTO, UN, Nato, - any or all of those organisations could have contributed and millions would still be wealthier.
Your last point is just a snipe and shows that if you has understood life outside the SE you would have won. Remain seemed to forget a cabbage pickers vote counts the same as a hedge fund managers
The cabbage pickers of course being Romanian.
I understood that there was no argument to the "I don't want any (more) foreigners" position.
not all of them and thats your problem. You werent able to sell to people on incomes much lower than your own a positive vision of why staying in would help them. All they see is a romanian helping to keep their salaries low and with local services overstretched no relief on the horizon.
The UK managerial class has forgotten its duty to the rest of the country, to lift all the boats not just their own. Why would you expect someone on a pay freeze to vote to keep a system which gives his boss a double digit pay rise ?
Love the brass neck on DavidL trying to blame Argentina's current economic crisis (and running to the IMF, which went so well last time - also under a neoliberal right wing government) on Corbyn-style policies when the country has had a hard-right government for three years and this collapse has come *after* the enactment of the failed hard-right free-market extremist policies he claims everyone should love. Unspoofable, as I believe someone here used to say.
See also - Brazil, where the right wing couldnt win an election so had to steal the presidency, and unpopular austerity measures have likewise presided over economic disaster.
Its almost as though there is something affecting the continent that transcends neoliberal / keynesian policymaking (the ongoing commodity prices collapse).
Venezuela is suffering, but this is as much from devestating sanctions and sabotage as mismanagement. During the Chavez years, Venezuela's economic performance was historically excellent.
Notable of course that one of the earliest adopters of Venezuela-style social democracy in the region, Bolivia, which has beaten off the attempts of right-wing coup-mongers over the years, is one of the best performing economies in Latin America.
It's clearly not. How else do you explain an old school, nostalgic, left-wing, anti-Semite like Jeremy Corbyn leading Labour and also being within spitting distance of the Conservative party in the polls? Free markets abhor protectionism - but that is what Brexit and Trumpism are all about. I wish it were otherwise. I am am a full-on, convinced capitalist - but the system is failing.
Hmm I was thinking more of the $2 a day metric. I hadn't thought about those perfectly well off who, Emma Thompson-like, believe somehow that life is unfair for them and want to stick it to The Man.
For those latter, yes, it is failing. Or rather, they are getting bored, such is their comfort and success and hence they are looking around for a new plaything.
Mr. Brooke, before the Battle of Pharsalus the Pompeian officers were already divvying up the loot they anticipated from defeating Caesar's army.
If one side spends more time assuming victory and planning the menu for their victory feast than planning how to win in the first place, they make it rather likelier they'll be eating humble pie.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas. He believes in a big role for the state in every part of our lives, redistribution of wealth, internationalism and non intervention.
He may have too many ideas because of the public distrust for them that Cyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he c Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
Osborne's Armageddon crap was as senly believed it ?
£4,300 by 2030 was hardly armageddon. And luckily we had Mark Carney in place to avoid any short term downturn.
I voted Remain because I believed it wh as I expected.
whichever you look at it the UK is destined to be less influential, world demographics will dictate it. It's perhaps time we faced up to it and worked out what it means.
Yep, I think that is fair. The buccaneering Brexiteers seem remarkably unwilling to understand where we are heading to, though. I suspect that with hard core English nationalists now taking over the Conservative party the end-game is no more UK.
maybe yes maybe no.
but fundamentally the mould has been broken and cant be put back together and this will require a change of the old guard in all the parties and some reconnection with the voters toi form a new political settlement,
whichever you look at it the UK is destined to be less influential, world demographics will dictate it.
Maybe if we were a senior partner in a huge SupraNational bloc perhaps we could increase our influence...
In its current format German is the senior partner no one else.
Nor do we have an empire any more. We need to get over ourselves on our position in the world. Being a senior partner, which we undoubtedly were, was a great place to be.
Although I do appreciate we have just signed a trade agreement with Upper Volta so it's not all bad news.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
CCyclefree alludes to.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Whilst that’s true, mainstream politicians have also singularly failed to explain why he’s wrong.
How many do you see marching onto the airwaves to defend rail, gas, or electricity privatisation, or the liberalisation measures taken to the financial sector in the 1980s?
Yes. You have also just summed up why Remain lost. Leave peddled an almost incontrovertible yet wholly fantasy land idea of what to leave would mean.
Remain with its sensible and unsensational ideas didn’t stand a chance.
The problem Remain had was that it didn’t really listen and wasn’t really offering people a choice.
Same with free market capitalism vs the bright lights of the socialism as espoused by Jeremy Corbyn. The choice was sensible old let's keep with what has demonstrably worked for decades vs some idealised bullshit that its proponents couldn't even articulate.
The analogy is exact.
Except free market capitalism is not working in much of the developed world anymore.
Is it not? I hadn't seen that. Short of a turbo-google I can safely say that it certainly has done to date. Indeed the only times it has failed has when one actor has introduced subsidies and distortions, such as American agricultural subsidies.
Let joy be unconfined, Jonathan Sacks interviewing Jordan Petersen on R4 just now.
I'd hope the prevalence of this stuff on the BBC nowadays would stop the Right whining about being denied a voice, but that would be far, far too optimistic for grey Monday morning.
It's clearly not. How else do you explain an old school, nostalgic, left-wing, anti-Semite like Jeremy Corbyn leading Labour and also being within spitting distance of the Conservative party in the polls? Free markets abhor protectionism - but that is what Brexit and Trumpism are all about. I wish it were otherwise. I am am a full-on, convinced capitalist - but the system is failing.
Hmm I was thinking more of the $2 a day metric. I hadn't thought about those perfectly well off who, Emma Thompson-like, believe somehow that life is unfair for them and want to stick it to The Man.
For those latter, yes, it is failing. Or rather, they are getting bored, such is their comfort and success and hence they are looking around for a new plaything.
I specifically said developed world. In the rest of the world free markets continue to do their work. But at some point, it has gone wrong in much of Europe and North America. You are seeing the genesis of similar issues in the more developed parts of Asia. At some point, the immensely wealthy - both individuals and corporates - need to understand that a level of redistribution, perhaps greater than they are currently used to, is actually in their own best interests. Hoarding money offshore just to prevent it falling into the hands of the tax authorities is entirely self-defeating. As living standards rise, so do expectations - about incomes, about public services, about opportunities and so on. That is just human nature.
Wonderful interview with Gisela Stuart on Radio 5. A poor interviewer but what a sham Gisesa turns out to be.......
Interviewer...."Well what would your plan be then?"
G.S. Erm.....er ..er ...um ...I don't ..I cant ....I think.... um ....um well the Checkers agreement is really just on the edge. We need a free trade agreement
Interviewer ....."That is an aspiration "what would YOUR solution be?"
G.S. Err.... Erm.....er ..er ...um ...I don't ..I cant ....I think.... um ....um..even Damien Green said...thought......um
Interviewer...."You have had many years to think about it...."
Proof if any was needed that in British politics all you need to do is ZIG when the rest of your party ZAGS and you make a name for yourself even when you have the intellect of a blancmange
whichever you look at it the UK is destined to be less influential, world demographics will dictate it.
Maybe if we were a senior partner in a huge SupraNational bloc perhaps we could increase our influence...
In its current format German is the senior partner no one else.
Nor do we have an empire any more. We need to get over ourselves on our position in the world. Being a senior partner, which we undoubtedly were, was a great place to be.
Although I do appreciate we have just signed a trade agreement with Upper Volta so it's not all bad news.
You only count as a senior partner if you fight your corner and palpably the UK leadership hadnt been doing this for about 2 decades. IfUK PMs had been doing so I suspect we would still be in the EU.
In Brexit we see just how much we have failed the seniority test, had we been France Germany would have been moving mountains to keep us in. In the event they didnt offer Cameron even a face saving ruse.
In my experience a quick temper is completely consistent with the nice old Grandpa persona.
I don't know how he keeps as calm as he does to be honest, the constant level of attack and smear must be bloody exhausting. I am known as mild mannered by my friends (and I aim to be) but I don't think I could go through what Corbyn does and keep my cool like he does. I would have to come out and fight my corner to a much stronger degree.
I wish he would. Let's have more like that video where he denounces NATO as the root cause of the cold war. Or perhaps he could explain the minor tweeks necessary to ensure that socialism will work this time. (another try having hacked the blockquotes..)
The main significance of this morning’s news is that hardcore Leavers have definitively declared any reachable deal a betrayal. It looks increasingly likely that Britain will leave the EU on a deal that commands no legitimacy on any side. That sounds healthy.
It'll command acquiescense from the vast majority of people who are simply bored senseless by it all, any sort of workable deal will also be a positive for business. And it's the best path forward, indeed the only path forward I can see. Obviously it'll disappoint people passionately involved in the issue as they tend to be either pure leavers or ultra remain. But for the vast majority, it'll do. It'll have to.
Indeed so, probably the last great British statesman. Someone who believed in something and effected change for the good, even if it was unpopular with many at the time.
Where are any politicians today offering a positive vision of the future and proposing serious solutions to today’s problems?
We should get RCS to make a video: Whatever Happened to Sterling M3? We never hear about the money supply these days. #MrsThatchersLegacy
Because politicians have been printing money and they don’t want us to know
It's clearly not. How else do you explain an old school, nostalgic, left-wing, anti-Semite like Jeremy Corbyn leading Labour and also being within spitting distance of the Conservative party in the polls? Free markets abhor protectionism - but that is what Brexit and Trumpism are all about. I wish it were otherwise. I am am a full-on, convinced capitalist - but the system is failing.
Hmm I was thinking more of the $2 a day metric. I hadn't thought about those perfectly well off who, Emma Thompson-like, believe somehow that life is unfair for them and want to stick it to The Man.
For those latter, yes, it is failing. Or rather, they are getting bored, such is their comfort and success and hence they are looking around for a new plaything.
I specifically said developed world. In the rest of the world free markets continue to do their work. But at some point, it has gone wrong in much of Europe and North America. You are seeing the genesis of similar issues in the more developed parts of Asia. At some point, the immensely wealthy - both individuals and corporates - need to understand that a level of redistribution, perhaps greater than they are currently used to, is actually in their own best interests. Hoarding money offshore just to prevent it falling into the hands of the tax authorities is entirely self-defeating. As living standards rise, so do expectations - about incomes, about public services, about opportunities and so on. That is just human nature.
Ah sorry I missed the developed world bit in which case yes of course you are right to an extent. I don't think the authorities have caught up with the global nature of capital and the complexities of the regulatory environments which has lead, as you say, to the "it's perfectly legal" situation of eg unrepatriated taxes.
That said, does this lead directly to the large number of small terraced council houses with brand spanking new Range Rovers parked outside?
And if it does, does that mean capitalism is failing?
We have dozens examples of most things not working, the reason the economic dails have shifted left and shifted right in the past is in response to crisis and failure that was perceived to be the fault of the model at the time (be that left or right) with the answer being to go the other way and success and failure being achieved going both ways.
There are people who see our current system as failing, you mention several problems that our current system has failed to deal with.
There is 'failure' and there is absolute politics-induced disaster.
I hope you won't take it as a 'smear' that Corbyn and leftists have shown a great deal of fondness for the left-wing Venezuelan government as enacted by Chavez and Maduro.
Today comes the news that their broken policies and corruption has apparently led 20% of Venezuelans to leave the country (*). This in turn causes immense problems for the surrounding countries that just might lead to war.
Our system has problems, and could certainly be better. But for the vast majority of us, it works.
If you want 'true' failure, look at the governments and people Corbyn admires.
It's clearly not. How else do you explain an old school, nostalgic, left-wing, anti-Semite like Jeremy Corbyn leading Labour and also being within spitting distance of the Conservative party in the polls? Free markets abhor protectionism - but that is what Brexit and Trumpism are all about. I wish it were otherwise. I am am a full-on, convinced capitalist - but the system is failing.
Hmm I was thinking more of the $2 a day metric. I hadn't thought about those perfectly well off who, Emma Thompson-like, believe somehow that life is unfair for them and want to stick it to The Man.
For those latter, yes, it is failing. Or rather, they are getting bored, such is their comfort and success and hence they are looking around for a new plaything.
I specifically said developed world. In the rest of the world free markets continue to do their work. But at some point, it has gone wrong in much of Europe and North America. You are seeing the genesis of similar issues in the more developed parts of Asia. At some point, the immensely wealthy - both individuals and corporates - need to understand that a level of redistribution, perhaps greater than they are currently used to, is actually in their own best interests. Hoarding money offshore just to prevent it falling into the hands of the tax authorities is entirely self-defeating. As living standards rise, so do expectations - about incomes, about public services, about opportunities and so on. That is just human nature.
but fundamentally the mould has been broken and cant be put back together and this will require a change of the old guard in all the parties and some reconnection with the voters toi form a new political settlement,
You are absolutely right. But the OP is an example of the problem - the existing elite just want the old settlement to continue and dismiss any concept of change, primarily on the grounds that they are very clever and should be allowed to continue and anyone new is dangerous - eg we are doing very well out of the existing settlement thanks.
By opposing Brexit they are standing in the path of a hurricane - the UK (and probably the World) is not just going to put Brexit and Trump down to a bit of temporary eccentricity and come back into line. I think the reason that Remainers are so aghast they lost is that they still don't understand in any way that things have changed irrevocably. They think if they can somehow knock off Brexit things will go back to 'normal'. But that is why they lost.
If one side spends more time assuming victory and planning the menu for their victory feast than planning how to win in the first place, they make it rather likelier they'll be eating humble pie.
If the other side salts the Earth to win, it is no surprise their "victory feast" is gruel
The main significance of this morning’s news is that hardcore Leavers have definitively declared any reachable deal a betrayal. It looks increasingly likely that Britain will leave the EU on a deal that commands no legitimacy on any side. That sounds healthy.
It'll command acquiescense from the vast majority of people who are simply bored senseless by it all, any sort of workable deal will also be a positive for business. And it's the best path forward, indeed the only path forward I can see. Obviously it'll disappoint people passionately involved in the issue as they tend to be either pure leavers or ultra remain. But for the vast majority, it'll do. It'll have to.
You massively underestimate the number of people who feel passionately about this. Roughly 30% of the population are prepared to see Northern Ireland unite with Ireland (or go up in flames), see Scotland go independent or see the country suffer economically to get Brexit. These are not people who are going to settle for just any old Brexit. And that doesn't include those equally passionate on the Remain side. Those bored senseless are going to hear no voices in support of the settlement. The drive to the extremes will continue.
Indeed so, probably the last great British statesman. Someone who believed in something and effected change for the good, even if it was unpopular with many at the time.
Where are any politicians today offering a positive vision of the future and proposing serious solutions to today’s problems?
We should get RCS to make a video: Whatever Happened to Sterling M3? We never hear about the money supply these days. #MrsThatchersLegacy
Because politicians have been printing money and they don’t want us to know
And yet inflation has not taken off. It is ironic that Mrs Thatcher is one of our most influential prime ministers despite being wrong on almost everything. Though you could say the same in spades about Churchill.
The main significance of this morning’s news is that hardcore Leavers have definitively declared any reachable deal a betrayal. It looks increasingly likely that Britain will leave the EU on a deal that commands no legitimacy on any side. That sounds healthy.
It'll command acquiescense from the vast majority of people who are simply bored senseless by it all, any sort of workable deal will also be a positive for business. And it's the best path forward, indeed the only path forward I can see. Obviously it'll disappoint people passionately involved in the issue as they tend to be either pure leavers or ultra remain. But for the vast majority, it'll do. It'll have to.
You massively underestimate the number of people who feel passionately about this. Roughly 30% of the population are prepared to see Northern Ireland unite with Ireland (or go up in flames), see Scotland go independent or see the country suffer economically to get Brexit. These are not people who are going to settle for just any old Brexit. And that doesn't include those equally passionate on the Remain side. Those bored senseless are going to hear no voices in support of the settlement. The drive to the extremes will continue.
Nevertheless there's a large swathe - probably a majority - of the population, some who voted leave and some who voted remain, who will make the best of it if Brexit is implemented seamlessly and free of pain, but will swing against the Tories if implementation is chaotic or the outcome turns obviously damaging.
There is 'failure' and there is absolute politics-induced disaster.
I hope you won't take it as a 'smear' that Corbyn and leftists have shown a great deal of fondness for the left-wing Venezuelan government as enacted by Chavez and Maduro.
Today comes the news that their broken policies and corruption has apparently led 20% of Venezuelans to leave the country (*). This in turn causes immense problems for the surrounding countries that just might lead to war.
Our system has problems, and could certainly be better. But for the vast majority of us, it works.
If you want 'true' failure, look at the governments and people Corbyn admires.
(*) Figures reported from BBC World Service.
Venezuela boomed and crashed mostly based on the oil price, any journalist writing about in reference to Britain's economy and it happening here has no understanding of economics. People use it to make a political point rather than any serious economic one.
Edit: Also, happy to be corrected on this but I think about the limit of the Corbyn-Maduro relationship is Corbyn did congratulate him on becoming president.
Indeed so, probably the last great British statesman. Someone who believed in something and effected change for the good, even if it was unpopular with many at the time.
Where are any politicians today offering a positive vision of the future and proposing serious solutions to today’s problems?
We should get RCS to make a video: Whatever Happened to Sterling M3? We never hear about the money supply these days. #MrsThatchersLegacy
Because politicians have been printing money and they don’t want us to know
And yet inflation has not taken off. It is ironic that Mrs Thatcher is one of our most influential prime ministers despite being wrong on almost everything. Though you could say the same in spades about Churchill.
Have you not seen what's happened to asset prices in the last five years?
not all of them and thats your problem. You werent able to sell to people on incomes much lower than your own a positive vision of why staying in would help them. All they see is a romanian helping to keep their salaries low and with local services overstretched no relief on the horizon.
The UK managerial class has forgotten its duty to the rest of the country, to lift all the boats not just their own. Why would you expect someone on a pay freeze to vote to keep a system which gives his boss a double digit pay rise ?
No Alan simply not true. The UK has problems, plenty of them. But to use your example, cabbage growers and pickers throughout (recent) history have been part of the greater good of the supermarkets selling cheaper food to the population at large. Ask any farmer about Tesco's pricing, selection and rejection policy. Now, for the farmers (and their staff) that means they make less. But for the country at large, they benefit from cheaper food prices and hence more disposable income.
All nothing to do with the EU and are you saying, which prompted my comment about East Lincs, that all the indigenous population is good for is cabbage picking?
The main significance of this morning’s news is that hardcore Leavers have definitively declared any reachable deal a betrayal. It looks increasingly likely that Britain will leave the EU on a deal that commands no legitimacy on any side. That sounds healthy.
It'll command acquiescense from the vast majority of people who are simply bored senseless by it all, any sort of workable deal will also be a positive for business. And it's the best path forward, indeed the only path forward I can see. Obviously it'll disappoint people passionately involved in the issue as they tend to be either pure leavers or ultra remain. But for the vast majority, it'll do. It'll have to.
You massively underestimate the number of people who feel passionately about this. Roughly 30% of the population are prepared to see Northern Ireland unite with Ireland (or go up in flames), see Scotland go independent or see the country suffer economically to get Brexit. These are not people who are going to settle for just any old Brexit. And that doesn't include those equally passionate on the Remain side. Those bored senseless are going to hear no voices in support of the settlement. The drive to the extremes will continue.
Nevertheless there's a large swathe - probably a majority - of the population, some who voted leave and some who voted remain, who will make the best of it if Brexit is implemented seamlessly and free of pain, but will swing against the Tories if implementation is chaotic or the outcome turns obviously damaging.
The Tories look completely screwed. Because Brexit is not going to match what all the Leavers want, they are simultaneously going to alienate Remain supporters and substantial sections of Leave supporters. The only question is which groups decide that they are alienated and when. This morning it seems as though the bitter-enders have decided they've been betrayed. If they don't get their way in the Conservative party, they can be expected to pursue other options.
It's clearly not. How else do you explain an old school, nostalgic, left-wing, anti-Semite like Jeremy Corbyn leading Labour and also being within spitting distance of the Conservative party in the polls? Free markets abhor protectionism - but that is what Brexit and Trumpism are all about. I wish it were otherwise. I am am a full-on, convinced capitalist - but the system is failing.
Hmm I was thinking more of the $2 a day metric. I hadn't thought about those perfectly well off who, Emma Thompson-like, believe somehow that life is unfair for them and want to stick it to The Man.
For those latter, yes, it is failing. Or rather, they are getting bored, such is their comfort and success and hence they are looking around for a new plaything.
I specifically said developed world. In the rest of the world free markets continue to do their work. But at some point, it has gone wrong in much of Europe and North America. You are seeing the genesis of similar issues in the more developed parts of Asia. At some point, the immensely wealthy - both individuals and corporates - need to understand that a level of redistribution, perhaps greater than they are currently used to, is actually in their own best interests. Hoarding money offshore just to prevent it falling into the hands of the tax authorities is entirely self-defeating. As living standards rise, so do expectations - about incomes, about public services, about opportunities and so on. That is just human nature.
Big issue in Singapore now - which is why they have punitive stamp duty (total 24%) on foreigners buying property - and New Zealand will ban foreigners buying existing properties*. Looks like the 'People of Nowhere''s world is getting smaller.....
*They are considering an exemption for Singaporeans under their FTA.....could be an interesting angle for the UK government to pursue....
The main significance of this morning’s news is that hardcore Leavers have definitively declared any reachable deal a betrayal. It looks increasingly likely that Britain will leave the EU on a deal that commands no legitimacy on any side. That sounds healthy.
Er - have you not noticed that it is May that has proposed a deal (eg Soft Brexit which you have supported) and the EU that has declared today that is not a 'reachable deal'?
CETA is reachable, as long as the EU realise that they need to abandon the NI backstop. Even Nick Boles has realised that.
This is what I don’t understand about current politics. May is made out to be some lunatic extremist Brexiteer, when what she has proposed is a soft Brexit, achieved by undermining the Brexiteers formerly in Cabinet. This is made out by some people as a Hard Brexit?!?
I would happily support EEA on the way to CETA if that were possible, but the EU don’t want a deal, Barnier has said as much. Unless the European leaders decide to sideline Barnier I cannot see a way forward apart from no deal. I actually think May has played it well. She has come up with a middle way solution, which pleases neither side she has to deal with, and the EU don’t want to do the deal - she can on the one hand say she tried to meet the EU for compromise so looks reasonable, but the no deal Brexiteers will get what they want so will be happy. I have said here before that I could settle for the Chequers proposal, if it meant a deal being done. It means we give something meaningful away in the negotiations and we lose something of being totally out of the EU.
What May now really needs is the EU to show their colours, by putting forward their own proposal. If they are not happy with our proposal what would they be happy with?
Comments
This is choice, but it is of two varying degrees of self harm. It is the choice of Bedlam
you could introduce the dishonours list and hand out turnips
the enemya half-way decent interviewer. There is a quick temper just beneath the veneer of nice old Grandpa Corbyn.had a cracking week in Killarney and Clare. Took the Mrs for afternoon tea at Ashford Castle to cheer her up as shes had a really tough year at your place. Theyve lost the plot.
You near packing it in yet ?
The fact that there are idiots out there that think those two buffoons have the credentials to hold the highest office in the land (and ditto for Corbyn supporters) merely points to the deficiencies of our educational system
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1036519160841490432
He has no plan.
Indeed, as Greening pointed out, he has no ideas for what to do if PM either.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1036514666988679168
The analogy is exact.
In his 1844 tract, On The Jewish Question, Marx wrote: ‘What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Money is the jealous God of Israel. The Bill of Exchange is the real God of the Jew.’
And in an article for the New York Daily Tribune in 1856, the founder of Communism thundered: ‘We find every tyrant backed by a Jew . . . in truth the cravings of oppressors would be hopeless . . . if there were not a handful of Jews to ransack pockets. Here and there and everywhere, there is ever one of these little Jews ready to . . . place a little bit of a loan.
‘Thus do these loans, which are a curse to the people, a ruin to the holders, and a danger to the governments, become a blessing to the children of Judah.’
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6125057/DOMINIC-LAWSON-No-wonder-Corbyns-Labour-riddled-anti-Semites-idol-Karl-Marx-one.html
Oh but what about the left behind of East Lincs? Bollocks. They weren't that left behind.
This afternoon they'll all be sternly denouncing anti-Semitism again.
https://thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-claims-hius-life-being-ruined-by-immigration-but-cant-explain-how-20170227122932
weve yet to see any causality between being in the organisation and and increased wealth. We were in lots of organisaions in the same period - WTO, UN, Nato, - any or all of those organisations could have contributed and millions would still be wealthier.
Your last point is just a snipe and shows that if you has understood life outside the SE you would have won. Remain seemed to forget a cabbage pickers vote counts the same as a hedge fund managers
Here are my top three lessons though
1 - never trust a leader who wants to change leadership rules
2 - what people need is not necessarily what people want
3 - a deal that unfairly punishes one side over the other is not really a deal at all. It will fall apart as soon as practically possible
CETA is reachable, as long as the EU realise that they need to abandon the NI backstop. Even Nick Boles has realised that.
I understood that there was no argument to the "I don't want any (more) foreigners" position.
Interviewer...."Well what would your plan be then?"
G.S. Erm.....er ..er ...um ...I don't ..I cant ....I think.... um ....um well the Checkers agreement is really just on the edge. We need a free trade agreement
Interviewer ....."That is an aspiration "what would YOUR solution be?"
G.S. Err.... Erm.....er ..er ...um ...I don't ..I cant ....I think.... um ....um..even Damien Green said...thought......um
Interviewer...."You have had many years to think about it...."
Proof if any was needed that in British politics all you need to do is ZIG when the rest of your party ZAGS and you make a name for yourself even when you have the intellect of a blancmange
Next stop Jeremy Corbyn PM.
A progressive income tax
Abolition of child labour
Free State provided education for all
A central bank
International institutions
These were radical ideas at the time (1848) but we are all Marxists now.
If you came out fighting under such circumstances you would get a slapping for precisely that reason.
The UK managerial class has forgotten its duty to the rest of the country, to lift all the boats not just their own. Why would you expect someone on a pay freeze to vote to keep a system which gives his boss a double digit pay rise ?
Love the brass neck on DavidL trying to blame Argentina's current economic crisis (and running to the IMF, which went so well last time - also under a neoliberal right wing government) on Corbyn-style policies when the country has had a hard-right government for three years and this collapse has come *after* the enactment of the failed hard-right free-market extremist policies he claims everyone should love. Unspoofable, as I believe someone here used to say.
See also - Brazil, where the right wing couldnt win an election so had to steal the presidency, and unpopular austerity measures have likewise presided over economic disaster.
Its almost as though there is something affecting the continent that transcends neoliberal / keynesian policymaking (the ongoing commodity prices collapse).
Venezuela is suffering, but this is as much from devestating sanctions and sabotage as mismanagement. During the Chavez years, Venezuela's economic performance was historically excellent.
Notable of course that one of the earliest adopters of Venezuela-style social democracy in the region, Bolivia, which has beaten off the attempts of right-wing coup-mongers over the years, is one of the best performing economies in Latin America.
For those latter, yes, it is failing. Or rather, they are getting bored, such is their comfort and success and hence they are looking around for a new plaything.
If one side spends more time assuming victory and planning the menu for their victory feast than planning how to win in the first place, they make it rather likelier they'll be eating humble pie.
but fundamentally the mould has been broken and cant be put back together and this will require a change of the old guard in all the parties and some reconnection with the voters toi form a new political settlement,
Although I do appreciate we have just signed a trade agreement with Upper Volta so it's not all bad news.
https://twitter.com/make_trouble/status/1036525402121023488
I'd hope the prevalence of this stuff on the BBC nowadays would stop the Right whining about being denied a voice, but that would be far, far too optimistic for grey Monday morning.
Yeah why don't we listen to the nice woman who can't differentiate Muslims from the far right...
In Brexit we see just how much we have failed the seniority test, had we been France Germany would have been moving mountains to keep us in. In the event they didnt offer Cameron even a face saving ruse.
Obviously it'll disappoint people passionately involved in the issue as they tend to be either pure leavers or ultra remain. But for the vast majority, it'll do. It'll have to.
That said, does this lead directly to the large number of small terraced council houses with brand spanking new Range Rovers parked outside?
And if it does, does that mean capitalism is failing?
I hope you won't take it as a 'smear' that Corbyn and leftists have shown a great deal of fondness for the left-wing Venezuelan government as enacted by Chavez and Maduro.
Today comes the news that their broken policies and corruption has apparently led 20% of Venezuelans to leave the country (*). This in turn causes immense problems for the surrounding countries that just might lead to war.
Our system has problems, and could certainly be better. But for the vast majority of us, it works.
If you want 'true' failure, look at the governments and people Corbyn admires.
(*) Figures reported from BBC World Service.
Once again Imperialist thinking trumps Geography...
By opposing Brexit they are standing in the path of a hurricane - the UK (and probably the World) is not just going to put Brexit and Trump down to a bit of temporary eccentricity and come back into line. I think the reason that Remainers are so aghast they lost is that they still don't understand in any way that things have changed irrevocably. They think if they can somehow knock off Brexit things will go back to 'normal'. But that is why they lost.
Edit: Also, happy to be corrected on this but I think about the limit of the Corbyn-Maduro relationship is Corbyn did congratulate him on becoming president.
All nothing to do with the EU and are you saying, which prompted my comment about East Lincs, that all the indigenous population is good for is cabbage picking?
*They are considering an exemption for Singaporeans under their FTA.....could be an interesting angle for the UK government to pursue....
I would happily support EEA on the way to CETA if that were possible, but the EU don’t want a deal, Barnier has said as much. Unless the European leaders decide to sideline Barnier I cannot see a way forward apart from no deal. I actually think May has played it well. She has come up with a middle way solution, which pleases neither side she has to deal with, and the EU don’t want to do the deal - she can on the one hand say she tried to meet the EU for compromise so looks reasonable, but the no deal Brexiteers will get what they want so will be happy. I have said here before that I could settle for the Chequers proposal, if it meant a deal being done. It means we give something meaningful away in the negotiations and we lose something of being totally out of the EU.
What May now really needs is the EU to show their colours, by putting forward their own proposal. If they are not happy with our proposal what would they be happy with?