There is 'failure' and there is absolute politics-induced disaster.
I hope you won't take it as a 'smear' that Corbyn and leftists have shown a great deal of fondness for the left-wing Venezuelan government as enacted by Chavez and Maduro.
Today comes the news that their broken policies and corruption has apparently led 20% of Venezuelans to leave the country (*). This in turn causes immense problems for the surrounding countries that just might lead to war.
Our system has problems, and could certainly be better. But for the vast majority of us, it works.
If you want 'true' failure, look at the governments and people Corbyn admires.
(*) Figures reported from BBC World Service.
Venezuela boomed and crashed mostly based on the oil price, any journalist writing about in reference to Britain's economy and it happening here has no understanding of economics. People use it to make a political point rather than any serious economic one.
That is absolute, 100% rubbish.
The disaster facing Venezuela is totally down to the actions of its government, which is why no other state that relies on fossil fuels has faced anywhere near the same drama, even when the prices plunged.
It should be a rich country. The policies so admired by Corbyn has created a massive humanitarian crisis.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually connected with 48% of voters. Problem is that 52% chose to suck in putrid negativity about Europe. And yes, Ms Carlotta, lots of xenophobic lies were employed. Whether they were pivotal is debatable, but they were definitely there, and my anecdotal discussions with leaver voters would suggest to me that, regrettably, it did have traction. To deny that is naïve
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually connected with 48% of voters. Problem is that 52% chose to suck in putrid negativity about Europe. And yes, Ms Carlotta, lots of xenophobic lies were employed. Whether they were pivotal is debatable, but they were definitely there, and my anecdotal discussions with leaver voters would suggest to me that, regrettably, it did have traction. To deny that is naïve
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
The only two Tories who inspire even an ounce of passion for amongst Tory voters I meet on the doorstep at the moment are Boris and Mogg. May is a dull technocrat and while there is a place for that in the current tedium of the Brexit negotiations as Corbyn proved voters are getting bored with dull centrist technocrats
Yes, Hitler proposed the same argument in the 1930s. There came a point when many Germans would have loved to have returned to dull centrist technocrats
The fact that there are idiots out there that think those two buffoons have the credentials to hold the highest office in the land (and ditto for Corbyn supporters) merely points to the deficiencies of our educational system
I get the far-left - its delusions, its anti-Semitism, its prejudices, its factionalism and its dangers. But for the life of me the Tory right remains unfathomable. How anyone can look at Johnson and Rees Mogg and not see two dog-whistling, self-obsessed chancers with no understanding of how the world works is beyond me. I guess we need one of them to become PM before the level of their uselessness becomes apparent to all. As with Corbyn, though, the problem is that involves pissing all over the country.
Many of these people are well-off pensioners on secure fixed incomes who, like our Australian friend, can be relaxed about advocating *adventurous* options, in the apparent belief that if it goes wrong they personally are safely sheltered from the consequences.
Mr. P, many sides engaged in defence through history employed a scorched earth strategy. It was often very effective.
In this case the "victors" slashed and burned anything and everything, and are now left wondering why the populace are not cheering them to the burned embers of what were once rafters...
It's clearly not. How else do you explain an old school, nostalgic, left-wing, anti-Semite like Jeremy Corbyn leading Labour and also being within spitting distance of the Conservative party in the polls? Free markets abhor protectionism - but that is what Brexit and Trumpism are all about. I wish it were otherwise. I am am a full-on, convinced capitalist - but the system is failing.
Hmm I was thinking more of the $2 a day metric. I hadn't thought about those perfectly well off who, Emma Thompson-like, believe somehow that life is unfair for them and want to stick it to The Man.
For those latter, yes, it is failing. Or rather, they are getting bored, such is their comfort and success and hence they are looking around for a new plaything.
I specifically said developed world. In the rest of the world free markets continue to do their work. But at some point, it has gone wrong in much of Europe and North America. You are seeing the genesis of similar issues in the more developed parts of Asia. At some point, the immensely wealthy - both individuals and corporates - need to understand that a level of redistribution, perhaps greater than they are currently used to, is actually in their own best interests. Hoarding money offshore just to prevent it falling into the hands of the tax authorities is entirely self-defeating. As living standards rise, so do expectations - about incomes, about public services, about opportunities and so on. That is just human nature.
Big issue in Singapore now - which is why they have punitive stamp duty (total 24%) on foreigners buying property - and New Zealand will ban foreigners buying existing properties*. Looks like the 'People of Nowhere''s world is getting smaller.....
*They are considering an exemption for Singaporeans under their FTA.....could be an interesting angle for the UK government to pursue....
And in Korea. It is at the early stages of becoming one in China, too.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually connected with 48% of voters. Problem is that 52% chose to suck in putrid negativity about Europe. And yes, Ms Carlotta, lots of xenophobic lies were employed. Whether they were pivotal is debatable, but they were definitely there, and my anecdotal discussions with leaver voters would suggest to me that, regrettably, it did have traction. To deny that is naïve
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies.
Mrs May told xenophobic lies?
The failure of REMAIN should concern us - because so far the opposition to what the government is doing is coming from the Ultra-Brexiteers - and all the Remaniacs can do is whinge about how its all so unfair.
If only they had a positive vision to sell as an alternative. But they don't appear to.
The failure of REMAIN should concern us - because so far the opposition to what the government is doing is coming from the Ultra-Brexiteers - and all the Remaniacs can do is whinge about how its all so unfair.
If only they had a positive vision to sell as an alternative. But they don't appear to.
If I am reading this correctly politicians will basically never have to face Andrew Neil anymore, as he will only be on once a week?
Once too many, I could do without seeing his girning face.
Your clearly a big fan.
I think he’s a Unionist and beat up the SNP in an interview once...
What?! I'm constantly being assured (mostly by Tories, right enough) that Andra is our foremost fair and balanced™ political interviewer, from whom all pols can expect rigorous impartiality.
The main significance of this morning’s news is that hardcore Leavers have definitively declared any reachable deal a betrayal. It looks increasingly likely that Britain will leave the EU on a deal that commands no legitimacy on any side. That sounds healthy.
It'll command acquiescense from the vast majority of people who are simply bored senseless by it all, any sort of workable deal will also be a positive for business. And it's the best path forward, indeed the only path forward I can see. Obviously it'll disappoint people passionately involved in the issue as they tend to be either pure leavers or ultra remain. But for the vast majority, it'll do. It'll have to.
You massively underestimate the number of people who feel passionately about this. Roughly 30% of the population are prepared to see Northern Ireland unite with Ireland (or go up in flames), see Scotland go independent or see the country suffer economically to get Brexit. These are not people who are going to settle for just any old Brexit. And that doesn't include those equally passionate on the Remain side. Those bored senseless are going to hear no voices in support of the settlement. The drive to the extremes will continue.
Nevertheless there's a large swathe - probably a majority - of the population, some who voted leave and some who voted remain, who will make the best of it if Brexit is implemented seamlessly and free of pain, but will swing against the Tories if implementation is chaotic or the outcome turns obviously damaging.
The Tories look completely screwed. Because Brexit is not going to match what all the Leavers want, they are simultaneously going to alienate Remain supporters and substantial sections of Leave supporters. The only question is which groups decide that they are alienated and when. This morning it seems as though the bitter-enders have decided they've been betrayed. If they don't get their way in the Conservative party, they can be expected to pursue other options.
I have come to the opposite conclusion. The EU don’t seem to want to negotiate a sensible deal since May’s chequers fudge is completely unacceptable according to Barnier. I think May could end up nullifying criticism from the centre by the EUs intransigence, and could end up at no deal by default which would please the headbangers on the Tory right.
On topic that would place May in the centre and Corbyn at the extreme, where as last year Corbyn was unscrutinised and had no chance of being PM, and May was a hard brexiteer. She may end up doing just enough to keep hold of hard and soft Brexiteers, in the face of McDonnell and his run on the pound economics.
The SPD in Germany is slowly being hollowed out . Support is now at 17% and when sub samples are looked at its at 12% among workers its presumed core. Its currently haemorraging support to the Greens, AfD and wont vote.
Merkel is on 30%, Greens and AfD both on 16%, FDP and Linke both on 8%
The failure of REMAIN should concern us - because so far the opposition to what the government is doing is coming from the Ultra-Brexiteers - and all the Remaniacs can do is whinge about how its all so unfair.
If only they had a positive vision to sell as an alternative. But they don't appear to.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually connected with 48% of voters. Problem is that 52% chose to suck in putrid negativity about Europe. And yes, Ms Carlotta, lots of xenophobic lies were employed. Whether they were pivotal is debatable, but they were definitely there, and my anecdotal discussions with leaver voters would suggest to me that, regrettably, it did have traction. To deny that is naïve
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
You massively underestimate the number of people who feel passionately about this. Roughly 30% of the population are prepared to see Northern Ireland unite with Ireland (or go up in flames), see Scotland go independent or see the country suffer economically to get Brexit. These are not people who are going to settle for just any old Brexit. And that doesn't include those equally passionate on the Remain side. Those bored senseless are going to hear no voices in support of the settlement. The drive to the extremes will continue.
Nevertheless there's a large swathe - probably a majority - of the population, some who voted leave and some who voted remain, who will make the best of it if Brexit is implemented seamlessly and free of pain, but will swing against the Tories if implementation is chaotic or the outcome turns obviously damaging.
The Tories look completely screwed. Because Brexit is not going to match what all the Leavers want, they are simultaneously going to alienate Remain supporters and substantial sections of Leave supporters. The only question is which groups decide that they are alienated and when. This morning it seems as though the bitter-enders have decided they've been betrayed. If they don't get their way in the Conservative party, they can be expected to pursue other options.
I have come to the opposite conclusion. The EU don’t seem to want to negotiate a sensible deal since May’s chequers fudge is completely unacceptable according to Barnier. I think May could end up nullifying criticism from the centre by the EUs intransigence, and could end up at no deal by default which would please the headbangers on the Tory right.
On topic that would place May in the centre and Corbyn at the extreme, where as last year Corbyn was unscrutinised and had no chance of being PM, and May was a hard brexiteer. She may end up doing just enough to keep hold of hard and soft Brexiteers, in the face of McDonnell and his run on the pound economics.
No deal would please the headbangers on the Tory right. It would be unlikely to please anyone else.
The failure of REMAIN should concern us - because so far the opposition to what the government is doing is coming from the Ultra-Brexiteers - and all the Remaniacs can do is whinge about how its all so unfair.
If only they had a positive vision to sell as an alternative. But they don't appear to.
Excellent thread Ms Cyclefree. Question of clarification - you describe the "very English mistrust of Big Ideas" and then go on to cite two great western thinkers - Burke and Smith, who while certainly British could barely be described as being 'English', born in Dublin and Kirkaldy respectively. While Burke made his careers in London, Smith was undoubtedly part of the 'Scottish Enlightenment' the English had the wit to follow. A slip of the pen? Or do you think mistrust of 'Big Ideas' is a specifically 'English' rather than 'British' phenomenon?
No. It was not a slip of the pen. I do think there is an English aspect to the phenomenon and that the Celtic nations have or have had a different approach.
The SPD in Germany is slowly being hollowed out . Support is now at 17% and when sub samples are looked at its at 12% among workers its presumed core. Its currently haemorraging support to the Greens, AfD and wont vote.
Merkel is on 30%, Greens and AfD both on 16%, FDP and Linke both on 8%
Dont know wont vote has gone up to 26%
The polls are quite variable by German standards, and some show this picture while some don't. Here's an overview:
The only really clear change on the election is that the Greens are clearly up, but the governing CDU and SPD are consistently slightly down and the AfD consistently up (from slightly to substantially).
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually connected with 48% of voters. Problem is that 52% chose to suck in putrid negativity about Europe. And yes, Ms Carlotta, lots of xenophobic lies were employed. Whether they were pivotal is debatable, but they were definitely there, and my anecdotal discussions with leaver voters would suggest to me that, regrettably, it did have traction. To deny that is naïve
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions. The catastrophe that they have brought on the country is mysteriously never their fault.
Rape Crisis Scotland criticises Alex Salmond’s response to allegations of sexual harrassment Rape Crisis Scotland’s chief executive, Sandy Brindley, said Mr Salmond’s decision to start a crowd-funder to meet legal costs could discourage more women from coming forward with their own experiences.
Does Corbyn have ideas? Or just a list of things that he has been opposed to for the last 40 odd years? Such ideas as he has espoused, such as the nationalisation of the train companies, seem to me to be ideas that were in vogue 40 years ago and more, tried to exhaustion and found to have failed.
I.agree with many of his ideas without in any way being far left, while disagreeing with others. I don't think he is fit to be PM, but that's more to do with his lack of self discipline than his.ideas. his economic policies are risky, but we're in for a penny in for a pound on that.score, thanks to Brexit.
Corbyn doesn't lack ideas in the sense he clearly wants to change things. He does however lack them in the sense that he has no concrete explanations of how and why these fairly vague platitudes would work beyond his particular brand of socialism being uniquely altruistic in it's will to implement change.
That's part of the reason for his success though. As various parts of the Labour left can project their views on to him, without the splits and outlining of negative consequences that hamstrung the party's radicals in the past. Whether that survives contact with reality is open to conjecture.
Exactly. Corbyn has ideas. He doesn't have policies. Cyclefree's thesis of a mild mannered extremist is an interesting one, but I don't think it really applies to Corbyn. Yes, some of his ideas have the potential to cause damage, just as Brexit will damage, but neither is an extremist position. Corbyn associates with terrorists and lies about it and there's a thuggish element to his faction. Those are my concerns on that score.
The mild mannered bit of Corbyn's supposed persona of a mild mannered extremist doesn't survive first contact with the enemy a half-way decent interviewer. There is a quick temper just beneath the veneer of nice old Grandpa Corbyn.
In my experience a quick temper is completely consistent with the nice old Grandpa persona.
I don't know how he keeps as calm as he does to be honest, the constant level of attack and smear must be bloody exhausting. I am known as mild mannered by my friends (and I aim to be) but I don't think I could go through what Corbyn does and keep my cool like he does. I would have to come out and fight my corner to a much stronger degree.
Corbyn doesn't have to worry about the smears but the zeitgeist and in that respect he's been lucky. Trump has reminded people what the cult of ME ME ME looks like and the old hippy has probably arrived in perfect time.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually connected with 48% of voters. Problem is that 52% chose to suck in putrid negativity about Europe. And yes, Ms Carlotta, lots of xenophobic lies were employed. Whether they were pivotal is debatable, but they were definitely there, and my anecdotal discussions with leaver voters would suggest to me that, regrettably, it did have traction. To deny that is naïve
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions.
Which Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Which other Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
The SPD in Germany is slowly being hollowed out . Support is now at 17% and when sub samples are looked at its at 12% among workers its presumed core. Its currently haemorraging support to the Greens, AfD and wont vote.
Merkel is on 30%, Greens and AfD both on 16%, FDP and Linke both on 8%
Dont know wont vote has gone up to 26%
The polls are quite variable by German standards, and some show this picture while some don't. Here's an overview:
The only really clear change on the election is that the Greens are clearly up, but the governing CDU and SPD are consistently slightly down and the AfD consistently up (from slightly to substantially).
Question: Are the AfD more, or less openly anti-Semetic than the racist, Jeremy Corbyn?
There is 'failure' and there is absolute politics-induced disaster.
I hope you won't take it as a 'smear' that Corbyn and leftists have shown a great deal of fondness for the left-wing Venezuelan government as enacted by Chavez and Maduro.
Today comes the news that their broken policies and corruption has apparently led 20% of Venezuelans to leave the country (*). This in turn causes immense problems for the surrounding countries that just might lead to war.
Our system has problems, and could certainly be better. But for the vast majority of us, it works.
If you want 'true' failure, look at the governments and people Corbyn admires.
(*) Figures reported from BBC World Service.
Venezuela boomed and crashed mostly based on the oil price, any journalist writing about in reference to Britain's economy and it happening here has no understanding of economics. People use it to make a political point rather than any serious economic one.
That is absolute, 100% rubbish.
The disaster facing Venezuela is totally down to the actions of its government, which is why no other state that relies on fossil fuels has faced anywhere near the same drama, even when the prices plunged.
It should be a rich country. The policies so admired by Corbyn has created a massive humanitarian crisis.
Trashy right wing newspaper headlines from the likes of the Sun and the Daily Mail do not make for good economic analysis. Nice cheap political point scoring but best kept out of serious conversation.
Anyone claiming Corbyn is somehow going to do a Venezuela here has nothing more than an incredibly basic knowledge of economics and can safely be ignored on the topic.
Lots of countries have been negatively affected by fossil fuels dropping in price, part of Venezuela's problem is that much of its oil is only viable (or worth) extracting and processing when the oil price is sufficiently high, which it was when the country was doing well and isn't now the country isn't doing well. Pure coincidence though, absolute 100% rubbish as you say, why would a country so dependent on a resource for its economy be affected by a change in its price...
You massively underestimate the number of people who feel passionately about this. Roughly 30% of the population are prepared to see Northern Ireland unite with Ireland (or go up in flames), see Scotland go independent or see the country suffer economically to get Brexit. These are not people who are going to settle for just any old Brexit. And that doesn't include those equally passionate on the Remain side. Those bored senseless are going to hear no voices in support of the settlement. The drive to the extremes will continue.
.
I have come to the opposite conclusion. The EU don’t seem to want to negotiate a sensible deal since May’s chequers fudge is completely unacceptable according to Barnier. I think May could end up nullifying criticism from the centre by the EUs intransigence, and could end up at no deal by default which would please the headbangers on the Tory right.
On topic that would place May in the centre and Corbyn at the extreme, where as last year Corbyn was unscrutinised and had no chance of being PM, and May was a hard brexiteer. She may end up doing just enough to keep hold of hard and soft Brexiteers, in the face of McDonnell and his run on the pound economics.
No deal would please the headbangers on the Tory right. It would be unlikely to please anyone else.
I didn’t say it would please the centre, but the chequers proposal is clearly a middle way proposal between membership and no deal. If this is completely unacceptable, as Barnier says, then May can say she proposed something that pushed the red lines (and went beyond in my opinion) yet the EU did not want to negotiate.
I know this doesn’t apply to you but there are lots of people who voted remain, I am one, who want the result respected and the best deal possible reached. If the EU do not want a deal then so be it. It would seem to be in both sides economic interest, but if their blinkered political ideology and punishment mentality prevent them from logically negotiating then that we can’t force them into a sensible deal.
It is just going to be another rehash of the arguments we have seen many, many, many times in the past.
It achieves nothing. It might make some posters feel better about themselves. But it does nothing to advance debate. It does nothing to change minds. It just creates bad feeling.
It turns a valuable and interesting site into shouting match.
I shall return in a few hours in the hope that people might have moved on to an actual discussion rather than variations of a theme of the usual Brexit fight.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually conne that is naïve
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
au contraire Remains failuresh probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions. The catastrophe that they have brought on the country is mysteriously never their fault.
Which catastrophe ? The economy is growing, employment is at a record high, overseas investment continues. None of this is what you predicted.
Furthermore Leave facing up to where it has failed, doesnt stop Remain doing so, a matter of more urgency I would have thought for people seeking a second referendum,
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually connected with 48% of voters. Problem is that 52% chose to suck in putrid negativity about Europe. And yes, Ms Carlotta, lots of xenophobic lies were employed. Whether they were pivotal is debatable, but they were definitely there, and my anecdotal discussions with leaver voters would suggest to me that, regrettably, it did have traction. To deny that is naïve
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions.
Which Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Which other Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
I'd say that Leavers who recuse themselves only after two years of their own ineptitude can be held to account. Leavers who were sacked for lying can also be held to account. The current DExEU Secretary was a Leaver.
This idea that Brexit is suddenly not a Leave project any more is unsurprising, however. Failure is usually an orphan.
Mr. P, the Government is led by those on the Remain side. Attacking the Leave side for 'not delivering' is not in accordance with reality.
A negotiation also requires both sides to make an effort to work. The EU's 'plan' is to have judicial and customs annexation of British territory and to impose a customs barrier within a nation state that recently decided it disliked the EU enough to want to leave.
That's like offering your wife a divorce where you get to have sex with her whenever you want, and she has to pay your rent. Yes. It's an offer. No, it's not one made by someone negotiating in a sincere and reasonable way.
[As an aside, we can all agree Boris is a vainglorious buffoon].
whichever you look at it the UK is destined to be less influential, world demographics will dictate it.
Maybe if we were a senior partner in a huge SupraNational bloc perhaps we could increase our influence...
In its current format Germany is the senior partner no one else.
Are you an advocate of a free trade "partnership" with the US like many Brexit apologists? Guess who would be the senior partner in such a scenario?
No, Im an advocate of us looking after our own interests. Free trade only suits the hegemon and we wont be rewinding the clock by 2 centuries.
But advocates of the madness called Brexit have always advocated trade agreements/partnerships with other nations to make up any losses we have with the EU.
A US deal has been much advanced, particularly by the disgraced GP. The asymmetry between UK and US makes any xenophobic nonsense about our asymmetric relationship with the hated "Jerries" look, well just plain xenophobic.
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually connected with 48% of voters. Problem is that 52% chose to suck in putrid negativity about Europe. And yes, Ms Carlotta, lots of xenophobic lies were employed. Whether they were pivotal is debatable, but they were definitely there, and my anecdotal discussions with leaver voters would suggest to me that, regrettably, it did have traction. To deny that is naïve
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions.
Which Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Which other Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
I have come to the opposite conclusion. The EU don’t seem to want to negotiate a sensible deal since May’s chequers fudge is completely unacceptable according to Barnier. I think May could end up nullifying criticism from the centre by the EUs intransigence, and could end up at no deal by default which would please the headbangers on the Tory right.
On topic that would place May in the centre and Corbyn at the extreme, where as last year Corbyn was unscrutinised and had no chance of being PM, and May was a hard brexiteer. She may end up doing just enough to keep hold of hard and soft Brexiteers, in the face of McDonnell and his run on the pound economics.
No deal would please the headbangers on the Tory right. It would be unlikely to please anyone else.
I didn’t say it would please the centre, but the chequers proposal is clearly a middle way proposal between membership and no deal. If this is completely unacceptable, as Barnier says, then May can say she proposed something that pushed the red lines (and went beyond in my opinion) yet the EU did not want to negotiate.
I know this doesn’t apply to you but there are lots of people who voted remain, I am one, who want the result respected and the best deal possible reached. If the EU do not want a deal then so be it. It would seem to be in both sides economic interest, but if their blinkered political ideology and punishment mentality prevent them from logically negotiating then that we can’t force them into a sensible deal.
I actually wrote a thread header arguing in favour of working with the Chequers proposal. It is massively inferior to the status quo, of course, but in the absence of any better suggestion, what else is there?
The fantasy of the other side abandoning its long-held negotiating position just because it would be convenient for Britain if it were to do so is just that: a fantasy.
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
Much easier to blame 'xenophobic lies' - absolves them of their own incompetence and responsibility.
'A big boy made me do it, then he ran away'.
Bit like Boris' column today.....
It actually connected with 48% of voters. Problem is that 52% chose to suck in putrid negativity about Europe. And yes, Ms Carlotta, lots of xenophobic lies were employed. Whether they were pivotal is debatable, but they were definitely there, and my anecdotal discussions with leaver voters would suggest to me that, regrettably, it did have traction. To deny that is naïve
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions.
Which Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Which other Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
I'd say that Leavers who recuse themselves only after two years of their own ineptitude can be held to account. Leavers who were sacked for lying can also be held to account. The current DExEU Secretary was a Leaver.
This idea that Brexit is suddenly not a Leave project any more is unsurprising, however. Failure is usually an orphan.
Yes the fanatics always complain when things aren't as utopian as the lies they peddled will always claim that it was because the approach was just not pure enough
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions.
Which Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Which other Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
The current DExEU Secretary was a Leaver.
You think he's doing a bad job?
You seem to have lost track of what you are asking me to comment on.
The SPD in Germany is slowly being hollowed out . Support is now at 17% and when sub samples are looked at its at 12% among workers its presumed core. Its currently haemorraging support to the Greens, AfD and wont vote.
Merkel is on 30%, Greens and AfD both on 16%, FDP and Linke both on 8%
Dont know wont vote has gone up to 26%
The polls are quite variable by German standards, and some show this picture while some don't. Here's an overview:
The only really clear change on the election is that the Greens are clearly up, but the governing CDU and SPD are consistently slightly down and the AfD consistently up (from slightly to substantially).
the biggest surprise for me in the poll is the size of the dont knows \ wont vote. That shows a a degree of dissatisfaction throughout the country. Merkel appears to be holding on to her donkey with a black rosette vote, but the SPD seems in a death spiral - I wonder if this is the result of staying in coalition ?
The big gainers are the Greens who seem on course to replace the SPD and the AfD who could yet become the biggest party in the East. German polls have consistently under recorded their support.
But that huge chunk of undecideds has to go somewhere so that might yet be the saving of the SPD and CDU. Especially for the CDU when Merkel goes.
The SPD in Germany is slowly being hollowed out . Support is now at 17% and when sub samples are looked at its at 12% among workers its presumed core. Its currently haemorraging support to the Greens, AfD and wont vote.
Merkel is on 30%, Greens and AfD both on 16%, FDP and Linke both on 8%
Dont know wont vote has gone up to 26%
The polls are quite variable by German standards, and some show this picture while some don't. Here's an overview:
The only really clear change on the election is that the Greens are clearly up, but the governing CDU and SPD are consistently slightly down and the AfD consistently up (from slightly to substantially).
Question: Are the AfD more, or less openly anti-Semetic than the racist, Jeremy Corbyn?
The trick to getting a rise out of someone else is to be the opposite of the emotion you want from them. Although from the limited time I've spent on this forum I would say Nick would be a complete waste of time to try it on.
[Remain] lost because they ran a crap campaign selling an unpopular product to an audience they didnt understand
and patronised in the process.
Nothing has changed. They have not a scintilla of humility for getting us into a position where Brext won. Leave massively punched above its weight, but Remain was a flabby super-heavyweight who felt he didn't need to do training, supremely confident that he could land a single knock-out punch in Round One. It showed a fatal lack of respect for the opponent. And when his opponent was still going in Round Five, all the wheezing, sweating Remain had was clinching and low punches...
I still cant get how the assembled mass of the british establishment couldnt come up with one positive reason to stay that would connect with the voters.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions. The catastrophe that they have brought on the country is mysteriously never their fault.
Just who brought about the catastrophe? I’m not sure I’d argue it was leavers. They just picked a campaign they agreed with and argued the case. You could argue Cameron brought it about by agreeing to a referendum, or the EU for not giving anything to Cameron in his previous negotiations, that would appease those who didn’t want ever closer union. Just think something tangible in those negotiations would have tipped the balance. See my earlier post about Weimar Republic and unfair deals. Anyway as @oxfordsimon pointed out no point rehashing arguments. Better things to do!
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Two quit and the third fired for incompetence.
These are the giant brains you think would deliver Utopia?
No.
But they beat Remain.
Oh, and a bus. Mustn't forget the bus.
Weren't you an advocate of Remain at that time? How much evidence do you require before you recognise the folly of this madness? It is one thing to be a convert, but quite another to keep insisting that the conversion is virtuous in the face of overwhelming evidence that the project to which you had a change of mind on is stupid and pointless
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The country is being led in the direction set by those who put out those xenophobic lies. The failures of Remain are unimportant: it is the success of Leave that concerns us.
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions.
Which Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Which other Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
The current DExEU Secretary was a Leaver.
You think he's doing a bad job?
You seem to have lost track of what you are asking me to comment on.
You wrote Leavers never take responsibility for their actions, surely being DExEU Secretary is exactly that? If he was "Minister for Droughts" that would be pretty distant from Brexit, but being DExEU Secretary is surely in the thick of it?
You have no opinion on his performance as DExEU Secretary?
The SPD in Germany is slowly being hollowed out . Support is now at 17% and when sub samples are looked at its at 12% among workers its presumed core. Its currently haemorraging support to the Greens, AfD and wont vote.
Merkel is on 30%, Greens and AfD both on 16%, FDP and Linke both on 8%
Dont know wont vote has gone up to 26%
The polls are quite variable by German standards, and some show this picture while some don't. Here's an overview:
The only really clear change on the election is that the Greens are clearly up, but the governing CDU and SPD are consistently slightly down and the AfD consistently up (from slightly to substantially).
Question: Are the AfD more, or less openly anti-Semetic than the racist, Jeremy Corbyn?
The trick to getting a rise out of someone else is to be the opposite of the emotion you want from them. Although from the limited time I've spent on this forum I would say Nick would be a complete waste of time to try it on.
I used to have some admiration for Nick. He has aligned himself with an anti-Semite, so I now have none
Mr. Roger, is it? I think women, relatively, voted more for Remain than Leave, and women as a whole tend to be more risk averse*.
*On that note, assessing risk on a short term versus long term basis can be quite tricky. Not having a go at men, or women, over that. But if you were offered the chance to fight a tiger (you get a gun for the fight) and certain healthy long life if you win, or to just live in England in the 1340s, what would the greater risk be deemed to be? Recurring bouts of black death or a few minutes of highly charged danger?
The boiled frog analogy works nicely because the frog doesn't know when it's being boiled. But it's also impossible, from a figurative, human perspective, to know when it's happening (in time to change things). If you're boiled, it's too late. If you jump out, you can't be certain you would've been boiled.
Not only that, jumping out alters the state of play so assessing the counter-factual becomes very difficult, perhaps nigh on impossible. We can all make predictions and write alternative histories, but when the fate of the Angevin Empire was sealed because one archer in France got a lucky shot when Richard the Lionheart wandered too near the wall, the vagaries of fate can upset the most intelligent and thought out argument.
whichever you look at it the UK is destined to be less influential, world demographics will dictate it.
Maybe if we were a senior partner in a huge SupraNational bloc perhaps we could increase our influence...
In its current format Germany is the senior partner no one else.
Are you an advocate of a free trade "partnership" with the US like many Brexit apologists? Guess who would be the senior partner in such a scenario?
No, Im an advocate of us looking after our own interests. Free trade only suits the hegemon and we wont be rewinding the clock by 2 centuries.
But advocates of the madness called Brexit have always advocated trade agreements/partnerships with other nations to make up any losses we have with the EU.
A US deal has been much advanced, particularly by the disgraced GP. The asymmetry between UK and US makes any xenophobic nonsense about our asymmetric relationship with the hated "Jerries" look, well just plain xenophobic.
thats the problem you have when you lump everyone together and then take the extremes as the norm. It would make this site so much more readable if we spent more time on the differing shades of leave and remain rather than nonsensical agitprop.
Personally I voted for freeish trade - but lets not be stupid about it - and for no more superstate integration. Ii looks like I'll get most of that.
Mr. P, the Government is led by those on the Remain side. Attacking the Leave side for 'not delivering' is not in accordance with reality.
A negotiation also requires both sides to make an effort to work. The EU's 'plan' is to have judicial and customs annexation of British territory and to impose a customs barrier within a nation state that recently decided it disliked the EU enough to want to leave.
That's like offering your wife a divorce where you get to have sex with her whenever you want, and she has to pay your rent. Yes. It's an offer. No, it's not one made by someone negotiating in a sincere and reasonable way.
[As an aside, we can all agree Boris is a vainglorious buffoon].
The problem on here is that there are a number of remainers who see the only successful outcome as something that pleases them. This is like merging the two manifestos from the last election and standing all candidates as conserva-labour, changing the colour to purple, logo to a rose bearing tree, and having all the policies however contradictory in a mega manifesto. It would please no-one.
Yeap, he clearly wouldn't take a pay cut like Eddie Mair and Virgin are willing to pay him the big bucks.
Chris Evans, the broadcaster, is returning to Virgin Radio after announcing live on his Radio 2 Breakfast show that he is quitting the station.
The 52-year-old will host the Virgin Breakfast Show almost 20 years after he left the station. He previously hosted the breakfast show at the station from 1997 to 2001.
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Two quit and the third fired for incompetence.
These are the giant brains you think would deliver Utopia?
No.
But they beat Remain.
Oh, and a bus. Mustn't forget the bus.
Weren't you an advocate of Remain at that time? How much evidence do you require before you recognise the folly of this madness? It is one thing to be a convert, but quite another to keep insisting that the conversion is virtuous in the face of overwhelming evidence that the project to which you had a change of mind on is stupid and pointless
Yes. I am also a democrat and voters routinely decide things I don't like. And that is their right.
With a growing economy, the highest level of employment since before I entered the workforce and continuing foreign investment I'm not quite sure where your evidence of 'madness' comes from. I think Brexit is a bad idea, but not implementing the result of a democratic vote is a very much worse idea. Where does that end?
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions.
Which Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Which other Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
The current DExEU Secretary was a Leaver.
You think he's doing a bad job?
You seem to have lost track of what you are asking me to comment on.
You wrote Leavers never take responsibility for their actions, surely being DExEU Secretary is exactly that? If he was "Minister for Droughts" that would be pretty distant from Brexit, but being DExEU Secretary is surely in the thick of it?
You have no opinion on his performance as DExEU Secretary?
As it happens, not particularly. It's far too soon to make any sensible judgement about him. But in any case, you seem to be muddled in what you are trying to show.
All around you on pb you are surrounded by Leavers who echo the Boris line that (like Christianity and Communism) Brexit has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and not tried. They are seeking to lay the blame at the feet of Remain supporters who have betrayed Brexit. Their shamelessness is limitless. Quite why you are enabling them is beyond me.
whichever you look at it the UK is destined to be less influential, world demographics will dictate it.
Maybe if we were a senior partner in a huge SupraNational bloc perhaps we could increase our influence...
In its current format Germany is the senior partner no one else.
Are you an advocate of a free trade "partnership" with the US like many Brexit apologists? Guess who would be the senior partner in such a scenario?
No, Im an advocate of us looking after our own interests. Free trade only suits the hegemon and we wont be rewinding the clock by 2 centuries.
But advocates of the madness called Brexit have always advocated trade agreements/partnerships with other nations to make up any losses we have with the EU.
A US deal has been much advanced, particularly by the disgraced GP. The asymmetry between UK and US makes any xenophobic nonsense about our asymmetric relationship with the hated "Jerries" look, well just plain xenophobic.
thats the problem you have when you lump everyone together and then take the extremes as the norm. It would make this site so much more readable if we spent more time on the differing shades of leave and remain rather than nonsensical agitprop.
Personally I voted for freeish trade - but lets not be stupid about it - and for no more superstate integration. Ii looks like I'll get most of that.
Post with xenophobic just degrade their arguments
No, it does not degrade arguments. When you make arguments about "the Germans" dominating Europe you are putting yourself in risky territory as it just smells of xenophobia. You can try and close down the debate about xenophobia and its part in Brexit if you like but it isn't going to work. There are many of us that are against Brexit because it gives Britain a reputation for intolerance and xenophobia, and those that use twisted thinly vailed attacks on other European countries need to be called to account
Chris Evans to leave R2. Wonder if he is another that wouldn't take a pay cut?
Another uselesss overpaid tw**, good riddance. BBC certainly needs a clearout of overpaid under talented staff. Time they were made to compete for their cushy numbers.
The one thing you can say about Chris Evans is that he doesn't appear on TV channels run for the propaganda purposes of a foreign despot like a certain ex-leader of the SNP. As I said the other day, the SNP has a pretty nasty history of providing succour to fascist regimes, so I suppose you could say that Salmond is being consistent in that particular tradition.
Big leap there from an unfunny DJ to politics. You obviously haev a grudge against SNP and Salmond, and also a bit loopy on your history. Your imaginary "succour to fascist regimes" where reality is the Tories and their propaganda sheet the Daly Heil were right in among it is ignored. Go read your hsitory books and get real.
Trashy right wing newspaper headlines from the likes of the Sun and the Daily Mail do not make for good economic analysis. Nice cheap political point scoring but best kept out of serious conversation.
Anyone claiming Corbyn is somehow going to do a Venezuela here has nothing more than an incredibly basic knowledge of economics and can safely be ignored on the topic.
Lots of countries have been negatively affected by fossil fuels dropping in price, part of Venezuela's problem is that much of its oil is only viable (or worth) extracting and processing when the oil price is sufficiently high, which it was when the country was doing well and isn't now the country isn't doing well. Pure coincidence though, absolute 100% rubbish as you say, why would a country so dependent on a resource for its economy be affected by a change in its price...
Your first paragraph is a standard leftist attack on newspapers you don't like and irrelevant. Your second paragraph is a strawman.
I believe your third paragraph is unusually on-topic, but also utter rubbish AIUI. Yes, Venezuela is highly dependant on the oil price, but its own internal policies - such as nationalisation of the oil and other industries - has decimated that income stream much more than the decrease in the international oil price. The 50% windfall taxes didn't help, nor did other actions. Venezuela's economy was diseased even when the oil prices were high.
Then there are the political things going on over there, such as the Constitutional Assembly and arsing about with the constitution to give him more power.
Saying 'it was all the oil price' is turning a rather sick, diseased eye from the real problems facing the people of that poor country.
whichever you look at it the UK is destined to be less influential, world demographics will dictate it.
Maybe if we were a senior partner in a huge SupraNational bloc perhaps we could increase our influence...
In its current format Germany is the senior partner no one else.
Are you an advocate of a free trade "partnership" with the US like many Brexit apologists? Guess who would be the senior partner in such a scenario?
No, Im an advocate of us looking after our own interests. Free trade only suits the hegemon and we wont be rewinding the clock by 2 centuries.
But advocates of the madness called Brexit have always advocated trade agreements/partnerships with other nations to make up any losses we have with the EU.
A US deal has been much advanced, particularly by the disgraced GP. The asymmetry between UK and US makes any xenophobic nonsense about our asymmetric relationship with the hated "Jerries" look, well just plain xenophobic.
thats the problem you have when you lump everyone together and then take the extremes as the norm. It would make this site so much more readable if we spent more time on the differing shades of leave and remain rather than nonsensical agitprop.
Personally I voted for freeish trade - but lets not be stupid about it - and for no more superstate integration. Ii looks like I'll get most of that.
Post with xenophobic just degrade their arguments
No, it does not degrade arguments. When you make arguments about "the Germans" dominating Europe you are putting yourself in risky territory as it just smells of xenophobia. You can try and close down the debate about xenophobia and its part in Brexit if you like but it isn't going to work. There are many of us that are against Brexit because it gives Britain a reputation for intolerance and xenophobia, and those that use twisted thinly vailed attacks on other European countries need to be called to account
At bottom of page it says that Germany has 29% of Eurozone GDP, add France you get to 50% and lump in Spain and Italy you get to 75%. It is fairly clear where the dominance is.
If I am reading this correctly politicians will basically never have to face Andrew Neil anymore, as he will only be on once a week?
Once too many, I could do without seeing his girning face.
Your clearly a big fan.
I think he’s a Unionist and beat up the SNP in an interview once...
He failed miserably to beat up the SNP and he is a unionist , a real Toom Tabard. However he is also a pompous thinks he knows it all balloon, and cannot get over his own biases so a poor interviewer.
whichever you look at it the UK is destined to be less influential, world demographics will dictate it.
Maybe if we were a senior partner in a huge SupraNational bloc perhaps we could increase our influence...
In its current format Germany is the senior partner no one else.
Are you an advocate of a free trade "partnership" with the US like many Brexit apologists? Guess who would be the senior partner in such a scenario?
No, Im an advocate of us looking after our own interests. Free trade only suits the hegemon and we wont be rewinding the clock by 2 centuries.
But advocates of the madness called Brexit have always advocated trade agreements/partnerships with other nations to make up any losses we have with the EU.
A US deal has been much advanced, particularly by the disgraced GP. The asymmetry between UK and US makes any xenophobic nonsense about our asymmetric relationship with the hated "Jerries" look, well just plain xenophobic.
thats the problem you have when you lump everyone together and then take the extremes as the norm. It would make this site so much more readable if we spent more time on the differing shades of leave and remain rather than nonsensical agitprop.
Personally I voted for freeish trade - but lets not be stupid about it - and for no more superstate integration. Ii looks like I'll get most of that.
Post with xenophobic just degrade their arguments
No, it does not degrade arguments. When you make arguments about "the Germans" dominating Europe you are putting yourself in risky territory as it just smells of xenophobia. You can try and close down the debate about xenophobia and its part in Brexit if you like but it isn't going to work. There are many of us that are against Brexit because it gives Britain a reputation for intolerance and xenophobia, and those that use twisted thinly vailed attacks on other European countries need to be called to account
well whatever. Personally I think its just english middle class bollocks and happily ignore it. If you cant actually dicuss an issue you never resolve it and the tensions build up in the background. They dont go away.
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Two quit and the third fired for incompetence.
These are the giant brains you think would deliver Utopia?
No.
But they beat Remain.
Oh, and a bus. Mustn't forget the bus.
Weren't you an advocate of Remain at that time? How much evidence do you require before you recognise the folly of this madness? It is one thing to be a convert, but quite another to keep insisting that the conversion is virtuous in the face of overwhelming evidence that the project to which you had a change of mind on is stupid and pointless
Yes. I am also a democrat and voters routinely decide things I don't like. And that is their right.
With a growing economy, the highest level of employment since before I entered the workforce and continuing foreign investment I'm not quite sure where your evidence of 'madness' comes from. I think Brexit is a bad idea, but not implementing the result of a democratic vote is a very much worse idea. Where does that end?
I don't have time to list all the evidence as I need to do some work, but you might want to start with political paralysis, large numbers of companies preparing to leave the UK, and the threat to the City that provides a large amount of our tax revenues.
The problem with the "will-o-the-people" argument is that those that advocate it are less keen on another vote to endorse what Raab et al manage to negotiate. If they did so they would have more credibility. The idea that just because there is a referendum result we should all just say, "Oh, OK, well the people have spoken so now I have to shut up and not believe it is wrong" is quite fundamentally ridiculous
The 'Scottish Independence' Brexit/stay in EU Deltapoll tables are up.
As ever with these 'hypotheticals' they need to be taken with a degree of caution - but I think Deltapoll have asked as straight forward and unbiased questions as possible under the circumstances. Although as the first question was about the historical Brexit vote its not directly comparable with previous 'independence only' polls:
It is just going to be another rehash of the arguments we have seen many, many, many times in the past.
It achieves nothing. It might make some posters feel better about themselves. But it does nothing to advance debate. It does nothing to change minds. It just creates bad feeling.
It turns a valuable and interesting site into shouting match.
I shall return in a few hours in the hope that people might have moved on to an actual discussion rather than variations of a theme of the usual Brexit fight.
Been catching up and you are spot on. I just skim a lot of posts as I know the content and who has posted it before I see the author.
The one thing I would say is that if Boris wants to be PM he has just turned vast swathes of the mps against him. I see David Davis has had a go at him and I would expect TM is now as secure as she has been in a long while
Chris Evans to leave R2. Wonder if he is another that wouldn't take a pay cut?
Another uselesss overpaid tw**, good riddance. BBC certainly needs a clearout of overpaid under talented staff. Time they were made to compete for their cushy numbers.
Chris Evans gets 9 million listeners, and is more popular than the sainted Terry Wogan ever was. It is easy for radio bosses to tell who is worth the money on these one microphone shows because ratings can be compared with adjoining programmes, rival stations' equivalent programmes, and with stand-in presenters when the main host is on holiday.
au contraire Remains failures remain extremely important since most of those currently in power voted remain.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
As always, Leavers never take responsibility for their actions.
Which Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Which other Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
The current DExEU Secretary was a Leaver.
You think he's doing a bad job?
You seem to have lost track of what you are asking me to comment on.
You wrote Leavers never take responsibility for their actions, surely being DExEU Secretary is exactly that? If he was "Minister for Droughts" that would be pretty distant from Brexit, but being DExEU Secretary is surely in the thick of it?
You have no opinion on his performance as DExEU Secretary?
All around you on pb you are surrounded by Leavers who echo the Boris line that (like Christianity and Communism) Brexit has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and not tried.
I think they are a distinct minority.
If there is a 'consensus' among Brexit supporting Tories its that Chequers, while far from perfect is a reasonable place to start. Lets see where we end up.
Boris' fans are also a minority - most hold him in thoroughly well deserved contempt, his only claim to fame his previous electoral success in London (which you facilitated!).
Does JRM have any fans? I don't see many advocating him for PM.
A court in Myanmar has sentenced two Reuters journalists to seven years in prison for violating a state secrets act while investigating violence against the Rohingya minority.
Wa Lone and Kyaw Soe Oo, nationals of Myanmar, were arrested while carrying official documents which had just been given to them by police officers.
Chris Evans to leave R2. Wonder if he is another that wouldn't take a pay cut?
Another uselesss overpaid tw**, good riddance. BBC certainly needs a clearout of overpaid under talented staff. Time they were made to compete for their cushy numbers.
The one thing you can say about Chris Evans is that he doesn't appear on TV channels run for the propaganda purposes of a foreign despot like a certain ex-leader of the SNP. As I said the other day, the SNP has a pretty nasty history of providing succour to fascist regimes, so I suppose you could say that Salmond is being consistent in that particular tradition.
Big leap there from an unfunny DJ to politics. You obviously haev a grudge against SNP and Salmond, and also a bit loopy on your history. Your imaginary "succour to fascist regimes" where reality is the Tories and their propaganda sheet the Daly Heil were right in among it is ignored. Go read your hsitory books and get real.
I think you need to read your history and get honest about what nationalism actually means , but then maybe you are not worried about Salmond working for RT and the SNP's one time support for the Axis powers. The clue is in the name.
The SPD in Germany is slowly being hollowed out . Support is now at 17% and when sub samples are looked at its at 12% among workers its presumed core. Its currently haemorraging support to the Greens, AfD and wont vote.
Merkel is on 30%, Greens and AfD both on 16%, FDP and Linke both on 8%
Dont know wont vote has gone up to 26%
The polls are quite variable by German standards, and some show this picture while some don't. Here's an overview:
The only really clear change on the election is that the Greens are clearly up, but the governing CDU and SPD are consistently slightly down and the AfD consistently up (from slightly to substantially).
Question: Are the AfD more, or less openly anti-Semetic than the racist, Jeremy Corbyn?
The trick to getting a rise out of someone else is to be the opposite of the emotion you want from them. Although from the limited time I've spent on this forum I would say Nick would be a complete waste of time to try it on.
I used to have some admiration for Nick. He has aligned himself with an anti-Semite, so I now have none
That's a helluva journey you've been on since the 11th July.
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Two quit and the third fired for incompetence.
These are the giant brains you think would deliver Utopia?
No.
But they beat Remain.
Oh, and a bus. Mustn't forget the bus.
Weren't you an advocate of Remain at that time? How much evidence do you require before you recognise the folly of this madness? It is one thing to be a convert, but quite another to keep insisting that the conversion is virtuous in the face of overwhelming evidence that the project to which you had a change of mind on is stupid and pointless
Yes. I am also a democrat and voters routinely decide things I don't like. And that is their right.
With a growing economy, the highest level of employment since before I entered the workforce and continuing foreign investment I'm not quite sure where your evidence of 'madness' comes from. I think Brexit is a bad idea, but not implementing the result of a democratic vote is a very much worse idea. Where does that end?
I don't have time to list all the evidence as I need to do some work, but you might want to start with political paralysis, large numbers of companies preparing to leave the UK, and the threat to the City that provides a large amount of our tax revenues.
The problem with the "will-o-the-people" argument is that those that advocate it are less keen on another vote to endorse what Raab et al manage to negotiate. If they did so they would have more credibility. The idea that just because there is a referendum result we should all just say, "Oh, OK, well the people have spoken so now I have to shut up and not believe it is wrong" is quite fundamentally ridiculous
We have a process. Parties stand on manifestos, General Elections are held (in the last one over 80% of the votes went to parties supporting Brexit) and a government formed. Inserting referendums with no democratic mandate because you didn't like the result of the last one is not part of that process.
Parties stand on manifestos, General Elections are held (in the last one over 80% of the votes went to parties supporting Brexit) and a government formed.
May stood on a Brexit manifesto and lost her majority
Parties stand on manifestos, General Elections are held (in the last one over 80% of the votes went to parties supporting Brexit) and a government formed.
May stood on a Brexit manifesto and lost her majority
But still formed a government - with the support of another Brexit supporting party (not to mention the Brexit supporting Opposition).
Comments
The disaster facing Venezuela is totally down to the actions of its government, which is why no other state that relies on fossil fuels has faced anywhere near the same drama, even when the prices plunged.
It should be a rich country. The policies so admired by Corbyn has created a massive humanitarian crisis.
Complacency is practically never an advantage. It was Remain's to lose.
Yes - 'xenophobic lies' did play a part in LEAVE's victory - but some clutch at it like a 'get out of jail free' comfort blanket to escape addressing the failings on the REMAIN side.
In truth, parties of all colours ignored voters concerns on immigration for years - in the end it took a brick through the window to get them to listen - just like Trump in America.
The failure of REMAIN should concern us - because so far the opposition to what the government is doing is coming from the Ultra-Brexiteers - and all the Remaniacs can do is whinge about how its all so unfair.
If only they had a positive vision to sell as an alternative. But they don't appear to.
Remain had an alternative.
Now Leave have to deliver, and they can't.
On topic that would place May in the centre and Corbyn at the extreme, where as last year Corbyn was unscrutinised and had no chance of being PM, and May was a hard brexiteer. She may end up doing just enough to keep hold of hard and soft Brexiteers, in the face of McDonnell and his run on the pound economics.
The SPD in Germany is slowly being hollowed out . Support is now at 17% and when sub samples are looked at its at 12% among workers its presumed core. Its currently haemorraging support to the Greens, AfD and wont vote.
Merkel is on 30%, Greens and AfD both on 16%, FDP and Linke both on 8%
Dont know wont vote has gone up to 26%
Let me guess.
It was someone else's fault *
(Despite outspending Leave by 50% or more)
Great analysis!
*Mention of "Xenophobic Lies" optional.
If they are arrogant or too stupid to understand what went wrong they will never correct their mistakes. That's a high probability.
Whining about Remain losing doesn't alter that fact
http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/
The only really clear change on the election is that the Greens are clearly up, but the governing CDU and SPD are consistently slightly down and the AfD consistently up (from slightly to substantially).
Rape Crisis Scotland’s chief executive, Sandy Brindley, said Mr Salmond’s decision to start a crowd-funder to meet legal costs could discourage more women from coming forward with their own experiences.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/scotland/1553744/rape-crisis-scotland-criticises-alex-salmonds-response-to-allegations-of-sexual-harrassment/
https://twitter.com/sarahwollaston/status/1036517528221216770
Of the prominent Tory Leavers, Boris, Davis and Patel are out of government. Gove remains.
Which other Leavers in government would you say this applies to?
Anyone claiming Corbyn is somehow going to do a Venezuela here has nothing more than an incredibly basic knowledge of economics and can safely be ignored on the topic.
Lots of countries have been negatively affected by fossil fuels dropping in price, part of Venezuela's problem is that much of its oil is only viable (or worth) extracting and processing when the oil price is sufficiently high, which it was when the country was doing well and isn't now the country isn't doing well. Pure coincidence though, absolute 100% rubbish as you say, why would a country so dependent on a resource for its economy be affected by a change in its price...
I know this doesn’t apply to you but there are lots of people who voted remain, I am one, who want the result respected and the best deal possible reached. If the EU do not want a deal then so be it. It would seem to be in both sides economic interest, but if their blinkered political ideology and punishment mentality prevent them from logically negotiating then that we can’t force them into a sensible deal.
It is just going to be another rehash of the arguments we have seen many, many, many times in the past.
It achieves nothing. It might make some posters feel better about themselves. But it does nothing to advance debate. It does nothing to change minds. It just creates bad feeling.
It turns a valuable and interesting site into shouting match.
I shall return in a few hours in the hope that people might have moved on to an actual discussion rather than variations of a theme of the usual Brexit fight.
These are the giant brains you think would deliver Utopia?
Furthermore Leave facing up to where it has failed, doesnt stop Remain doing so, a matter of more urgency I would have thought for people seeking a second referendum,
This idea that Brexit is suddenly not a Leave project any more is unsurprising, however. Failure is usually an orphan.
A negotiation also requires both sides to make an effort to work. The EU's 'plan' is to have judicial and customs annexation of British territory and to impose a customs barrier within a nation state that recently decided it disliked the EU enough to want to leave.
That's like offering your wife a divorce where you get to have sex with her whenever you want, and she has to pay your rent. Yes. It's an offer. No, it's not one made by someone negotiating in a sincere and reasonable way.
[As an aside, we can all agree Boris is a vainglorious buffoon].
https://twitter.com/libe/status/1036479362500100096
The cabinet was stuffed with Leavers who proved themselves incapable.
Not a good advert for their cause.
A US deal has been much advanced, particularly by the disgraced GP. The asymmetry between UK and US makes any xenophobic nonsense about our asymmetric relationship with the hated "Jerries" look, well just plain xenophobic.
But they beat Remain.
Oh, and a bus. Mustn't forget the bus.
The fantasy of the other side abandoning its long-held negotiating position just because it would be convenient for Britain if it were to do so is just that: a fantasy.
The big gainers are the Greens who seem on course to replace the SPD and the AfD who could yet become the biggest party in the East. German polls have consistently under recorded their support.
But that huge chunk of undecideds has to go somewhere so that might yet be the saving of the SPD and CDU. Especially for the CDU when Merkel goes.
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article181399706/Forsa-Umfrage-Gruene-und-AfD-liegen-fast-gleichauf-mit-SPD.html
So, 'giant brains' (sic) a bus and a dishonest poster beat Remain.
And they still don't know why.....
Probably easier just blaming the voters.....
And it worked on many people, some of whom are still posting here it seems...
You have no opinion on his performance as DExEU Secretary?
Now, on winning that second referendum, what went wrong last time?
*On that note, assessing risk on a short term versus long term basis can be quite tricky. Not having a go at men, or women, over that. But if you were offered the chance to fight a tiger (you get a gun for the fight) and certain healthy long life if you win, or to just live in England in the 1340s, what would the greater risk be deemed to be? Recurring bouts of black death or a few minutes of highly charged danger?
The boiled frog analogy works nicely because the frog doesn't know when it's being boiled. But it's also impossible, from a figurative, human perspective, to know when it's happening (in time to change things). If you're boiled, it's too late. If you jump out, you can't be certain you would've been boiled.
Not only that, jumping out alters the state of play so assessing the counter-factual becomes very difficult, perhaps nigh on impossible. We can all make predictions and write alternative histories, but when the fate of the Angevin Empire was sealed because one archer in France got a lucky shot when Richard the Lionheart wandered too near the wall, the vagaries of fate can upset the most intelligent and thought out argument.
Personally I voted for freeish trade - but lets not be stupid about it - and for no more superstate integration. Ii looks like I'll get most of that.
Post with xenophobic just degrade their arguments
Chris Evans, the broadcaster, is returning to Virgin Radio after announcing live on his Radio 2 Breakfast show that he is quitting the station.
The 52-year-old will host the Virgin Breakfast Show almost 20 years after he left the station. He previously hosted the breakfast show at the station from 1997 to 2001.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/03/chris-evans-reveals-live-air-leaving-bbc-radio-2-breakfast-show/
She said: 'If this definition is not adopted, the majority of Labour MPs won't take this sitting down.
'We have talked about walking out - going on strike. We are not going to take that lying down.
'It is not for us as a party to reject that definition which so many countries have adopted. It's just so embarrassing.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6126021/Labour-MPs-strike-anti-Semitism-definition.html
I will believe it when I see it. A picket line of Labour MPs chanting, what to we want, the IHRA (in full), when do we want it, now....
With a growing economy, the highest level of employment since before I entered the workforce and continuing foreign investment I'm not quite sure where your evidence of 'madness' comes from. I think Brexit is a bad idea, but not implementing the result of a democratic vote is a very much worse idea. Where does that end?
so you had all these really stupid people and yet you couldnt convince them. What does that say about you ?
All around you on pb you are surrounded by Leavers who echo the Boris line that (like Christianity and Communism) Brexit has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and not tried. They are seeking to lay the blame at the feet of Remain supporters who have betrayed Brexit. Their shamelessness is limitless. Quite why you are enabling them is beyond me.
I believe your third paragraph is unusually on-topic, but also utter rubbish AIUI. Yes, Venezuela is highly dependant on the oil price, but its own internal policies - such as nationalisation of the oil and other industries - has decimated that income stream much more than the decrease in the international oil price. The 50% windfall taxes didn't help, nor did other actions. Venezuela's economy was diseased even when the oil prices were high.
Then there are the political things going on over there, such as the Constitutional Assembly and arsing about with the constitution to give him more power.
Saying 'it was all the oil price' is turning a rather sick, diseased eye from the real problems facing the people of that poor country.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/DDN-20180511-1?inheritRedirect=true
At bottom of page it says that Germany has 29% of Eurozone GDP, add France you get to 50% and lump in Spain and Italy you get to 75%. It is fairly clear where the dominance is.
Also, convincing stupid people is rarely achievable. Pandering to their existing prejudice however is so simple even BoZo managed it.
The problem with the "will-o-the-people" argument is that those that advocate it are less keen on another vote to endorse what Raab et al manage to negotiate. If they did so they would have more credibility. The idea that just because there is a referendum result we should all just say, "Oh, OK, well the people have spoken so now I have to shut up and not believe it is wrong" is quite fundamentally ridiculous
As ever with these 'hypotheticals' they need to be taken with a degree of caution - but I think Deltapoll have asked as straight forward and unbiased questions as possible under the circumstances. Although as the first question was about the historical Brexit vote its not directly comparable with previous 'independence only' polls:
http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Scotland-website.pdf
The one thing I would say is that if Boris wants to be PM he has just turned vast swathes of the mps against him. I see David Davis has had a go at him and I would expect TM is now as secure as she has been in a long while
If there is a 'consensus' among Brexit supporting Tories its that Chequers, while far from perfect is a reasonable place to start. Lets see where we end up.
Boris' fans are also a minority - most hold him in thoroughly well deserved contempt, his only claim to fame his previous electoral success in London (which you facilitated!).
Does JRM have any fans? I don't see many advocating him for PM.
Wa Lone and Kyaw Soe Oo, nationals of Myanmar, were arrested while carrying official documents which had just been given to them by police officers.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45392972
then the reults came in.
Its usually a good idea to do analysis on the results not the forecasts.
Why do YOU think Remain lost?
https://twitter.com/Fox4HailshamNT/status/1035842042902065152
You lost.
OK, how are you going to deliver Brexit?
LOSERS!
Having won, what concrete steps are you taking to make Brexit happen?
The BUS! Don't forget the BUS!