* A monarch has a "job for a life", so quintessentially Socialist! * The hereditary principle is so common among Socialist dynasties around the world, such as the Kims in North Korea, the Nehru-Gandhis in India, and the Benn Kinnocks in the UK! * Pomp and circumstance: Trooping the Colour is merely a scaled down version of all those tightly choreographed North Korean parades!
So, I put it to you, PBers, that Monarchy = Socialism!
No for the umpteenth time monarchy and support for a strong nation state are the epitome of conservatism.
Another monarcho-socialist writes!
Monarchy is not socialism, witness the Romanovs murder by the Bolsheviks.
I suspect he wont be the Tory candidate at the next general election.
Could create an opening for you TSE - though I am not sure 5 years on the opposition benches would be much fun.
I knew at a very young age that being an MP was not for me.
I think CCHQ did me a favour by rejecting me. I think I would have got heavily into debt as a candidate, and if elected, I would not have enjoyed myself.
I remember Marcus Wood telling me how much money and opportunity being a candidate had cost him and the relief when he was no longer a candidate.
My biggest issues would be relentlessly staying on message and my sarcasm getting me into trouble.
The other aspect being a candidate/MP is really hard on your family. I know one MP who showed me all the abuse he and his staff had to deal with (this way before Brexit) and the dread when an unrecognised number rang your home.
I don't think my mother would have been able to come up with all the abuse I'd have gotten on social media.
It is obvious he sees political capital in crashing the deal and campaigning that staying in is the only choice.
Politics
If that is his plan it's a very Mandelson over-think. He's just as likely to facilitate no deal and look an idiot while the rest of us suffer.
The article shows other ultra-Remainers like Umunna taking the same position. It's quite significant, since it means there probably isn't a Commons majority for the Chequers deal.
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
There is a sad possibility that no-one in the party could do better: the divide is too deep. Put a Europhile in and the Europhobes will whinge and complain; some may even jump ship to another party. Put a Europhobe in and the Europhiles will whinge and complain.
Yes but as HYUFD has been pointing out "euophobes" VASTLY outweigh "europhiles" in today's modern day Conservative Party.
Upset europhiles and Con will drop a bit. Upset europhobes and Con will collapse. As we're starting to see....
Just remember I called this Con collapse at around 10pm on 6th July when everyone on here was saying Theresa had played a blinder bitch slapping the Brexiteers....
I can't remember many people saying she'd played a blinder, nor has Conservative support collapsed.
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
To be fair to Kim Jong Un he does have some conservative characteristics which is maybe why he got on so well with Trump.
However conservatives really support constitutional monarchy not absolute monarchy and dictatorship
One of the pleasures of PB is the sheer range of viewpoints. "To be fair to Kim Jong Un he does have some conservative characteristics" is not a comment you hear every day.
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
Interesting that Labour's share isn't up in this poll compared to the general election. In fact it's down slightly. The problem is almost entirely a swing from Tory to UKIP.
Which is fatal for the Tories, of course. Swathes of seats would return to Labour.
May is an imbecile. Did she not see this coming when she presented herself as a Hard Brexiteer, with all those hard red lines? Presumably she knew Soft Brexit was economically logical, so why get all the Kippers excited, only to betray them?? Worst of all worlds.
She should have said from the Off that she was a Soft Brexiteer, and she would have to negotiate and compromise, and it would be difficult, and all this anger would have been avoided.
Strategically she is an utter cretin, as a campaigner she is worse, she has negative charisma, it's mind boggling that she is prime minister.
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
Interesting that Labour's share isn't up in this poll compared to the general election. In fact it's down slightly. The problem is almost entirely a swing from Tory to UKIP.
Which is fatal for the Tories, of course. Swathes of seats would return to Labour.
May is an imbecile. Did she not see this coming when she presented herself as a Hard Brexiteer, with all those hard red lines? Presumably she knew Soft Brexit was economically logical, so why get all the Kippers excited, only to betray them?? Worst of all worlds.
She should have said from the Off that she was a Soft Brexiteer, and she would have to negotiate and compromise, and it would be difficult, and all this anger would have been avoided.
Strategically she is an utter cretin, as a campaigner she is worse, she has negative charisma, it's mind boggling that she is prime minister.
But still she remains (excuse the pun) - you have to admit she has something remarkable about her.
* A monarch has a "job for a life", so quintessentially Socialist! * The hereditary principle is so common among Socialist dynasties around the world, such as the Kims in North Korea, the Nehru-Gandhis in India, and the Benn Kinnocks in the UK! * Pomp and circumstance: Trooping the Colour is merely a scaled down version of all those tightly choreographed North Korean parades!
So, I put it to you, PBers, that Monarchy = Socialism!
No for the umpteenth time monarchy and support for a strong nation state are the epitome of conservatism.
Another monarcho-socialist writes!
Monarchy is not socialism, witness the Romanovs murder by the Bolsheviks.
You confuse liberalism and conservatism
Note: the monarcho-socialist HYUFD responds to the stimulus as predicted!
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you warn so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Big G, I think you’re mixing up ‘crash out Brexit’ with ‘hard Brexit’
Hard Brexit is leaving CU/SM/ECJ, and the orbit of the EU as well as the institutions.
Soft Brexit is staying in the above.
The chequers deal is closer to hard Brexit than soft Brexit, but might not be hard enough for voters.
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
Interesting that Labour's share isn't up in this poll compared to the general election. In fact it's down slightly. The problem is almost entirely a swing from Tory to UKIP.
Most likely those Con > UKIP swicthers would actually stay at home (unless Farage comes back) in a real election,
But Jezza won't care. As long as he can win the election 40% to Con 30-35% won't mind how he does it...
There may be method in the Tory Leavers defections letting in Corbyn.
If Corbyn becomes PM against a Tory PM campaigning on a soft Brexit platform you can guarantee the next Tory leader of the Opposition will be a hard Brexiteer
Makes me confident that the UK will rejoin the EU after the poop show of a no deal Brexit.
Funnily enough, I am coming round to that view myself. And I wonder whether the EU would prefer that too - they of course can ensure it happens by rejecting May's plan (so much for taking back control, lol)
* A monarch has a "job for a life", so quintessentially Socialist! * The hereditary principle is so common among Socialist dynasties around the world, such as the Kims in North Korea, the Nehru-Gandhis in India, and the Benn Kinnocks in the UK! * Pomp and circumstance: Trooping the Colour is merely a scaled down version of all those tightly choreographed North Korean parades!
So, I put it to you, PBers, that Monarchy = Socialism!
No for the umpteenth time monarchy and support for a strong nation state are the epitome of conservatism.
Another monarcho-socialist writes!
Monarchy is not socialism, witness the Romanovs murder by the Bolsheviks.
You confuse liberalism and conservatism
Note: the monarcho-socialist HYUFD responds to the stimulus as predicted!
The opposite of socialism is actually free market liberalism not conservatism in any case, conservatism is not socialism but nor is it liberalism either, above all it represents tradition
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
Interesting that Labour's share isn't up in this poll compared to the general election. In fact it's down slightly. The problem is almost entirely a swing from Tory to UKIP.
Which is fatal for the Tories, of course. Swathes of seats would return to Labour.
May is an imbecile. Did she not see this coming when she presented herself as a Hard Brexiteer, with all those hard red lines? Presumably she knew Soft Brexit was economically logical, so why get all the Kippers excited, only to betray them?? Worst of all worlds.
She should have said from the Off that she was a Soft Brexiteer, and she would have to negotiate and compromise, and it would be difficult, and all this anger would have been avoided.
Strategically she is an utter cretin, as a campaigner she is worse, she has negative charisma, it's mind boggling that she is prime minister.
Yep. Whenever a politician takes their voters for fools it never ends well....
Makes me confident that the UK will rejoin the EU after the poop show of a no deal Brexit.
Funnily enough, I am coming round to that view myself. And I wonder whether the EU would prefer that too - they of course can ensure it happens by rejecting May's plan (so much for taking back control, lol)
EU instranisgence is the surest way of ensuring that the UK unites against it; remember the majority of the voters don’t want to be in it already. If they’re instransigent many who reluctantly voted Remain will turn against it too.
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you warn so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Big G, I think you’re mixing up ‘crash out Brexit’ with ‘hard Brexit’
Hard Brexit is leaving CU/SM/ECJ, and the orbit of the EU as well as the institutions.
Soft Brexit is staying in the above.
The chequers deal is closer to hard Brexit than soft Brexit, but might not be hard enough for voters.
Unicorn alert. The only way to achieve your definition of Hard Brexit is through a crash out Brexit.
I suspect he wont be the Tory candidate at the next general election.
Could create an opening for you TSE - though I am not sure 5 years on the opposition benches would be much fun.
I knew at a very young age that being an MP was not for me.
I think CCHQ did me a favour by rejecting me. I think I would have got heavily into debt as a candidate, and if elected, I would not have enjoyed myself.
I remember Marcus Wood telling me how much money and opportunity being a candidate had cost him and the relief when he was no longer a ca
I don't think my mother would have been able to come up with all the abuse I'd have gotten on social media.
I suspect he wont be the Tory candidate at the next general election.
Could create an opening for you TSE - though I am not sure 5 years on the opposition benches would be much fun.
I knew at a very young age that being an MP was not for me.
I think CCHQ did me a favour by rejecting me. I think I would have got heavily into debt as a candidate, and if elected, I would not have enjoyed myself.
I remember Marcus Wood telling me how much money and opportunity being a candidate had cost him and the relief when he was no longer a candidate.
My biggest issues would be relentlessly staying on message and my sarcasm getting me into trouble.
The other aspect being a candidate/MP is really hard on your family. I know one MP who showed me all the abuse he and his staff had to deal with (this way before Brexit) and the dread when an unrecognised number rang your home.
I don't think my mother would have been able to come up with all the abuse I'd have gotten on social media.
There are many more fun, more influential and often better paid jobs outside Parliament. I’m pretty confident I’ve had more impact on the world than had I managed to become a backbench MP.
It is obvious he sees political capital in crashing the deal and campaigning that staying in is the only choice.
Politics
If that is his plan it's a very Mandelson over-think. He's just as likely to facilitate no deal and look an idiot while the rest of us suffer.
The article shows other ultra-Remainers like Umunna taking the same position. It's quite significant, since it means there probably isn't a Commons majority for the Chequers deal.
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you warn so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Big G, I think you’re mixing up ‘crash out Brexit’ with ‘hard Brexit’
Hard Brexit is leaving CU/SM/ECJ, and the orbit of the EU as well as the institutions.
Soft Brexit is staying in the above.
The chequers deal is closer to hard Brexit than soft Brexit, but might not be hard enough for voters.
Unicorn alert. The only way to achieve your definition of Hard Brexit is through a crash out Brexit.
No, it isn’t. It would be perfectly possible to transition to Canada or Canada++ etc
It is obvious he sees political capital in crashing the deal and campaigning that staying in is the only choice.
Politics
If that is his plan it's a very Mandelson over-think. He's just as likely to facilitate no deal and look an idiot while the rest of us suffer.
The article shows other ultra-Remainers like Umunna taking the same position. It's quite significant, since it means there probably isn't a Commons majority for the Chequers deal.
No deal and remain are the most likely outcomes, the former more so than the latter. A very dangerous strategy for remainers to pursue, however. It seems unnecessarily risky for both sides to me to not get through a crappy deal (or at least wait to see whether the EU rejects it/asks for more) and they then have time to change things by making us go even harder, or bringing us yet closer still.
This all or nothing approach seems pretty childish when there are such serious consequences. Problem is May has not been able to sell her approach to her own party, and so Labour's support will be crucial, and even if it is a good plan they won't back it because of their deliberately vague approach.
So it may well be a dead deal. It doesn't make remaining after all much easier, even though it will be an option. No deal becomes vastly more likely.
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
There is a sad possibility that no-one in the party could do better: the divide is too deep. Put a Europhile in and the Europhobes will whinge and complain; some may even jump ship to another party. Put a Europhobe in and the Europhiles will whinge and complain.
Yes but as HYUFD has been pointing out "euophobes" VASTLY outweigh "europhiles" in today's modern day Conservative Party.
Upset europhiles and Con will drop a bit. Upset europhobes and Con will collapse. As we're starting to see....
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you warn so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Big G, I think you’re mixing up ‘crash out Brexit’ with ‘hard Brexit’
Hard Brexit is leaving CU/SM/ECJ, and the orbit of the EU as well as the institutions.
Soft Brexit is staying in the above.
The chequers deal is closer to hard Brexit than soft Brexit, but might not be hard enough for voters.
Unicorn alert. The only way to achieve your definition of Hard Brexit is through a crash out Brexit.
Why would the EU want no EU planes flying through UK airspace, why would the EU want all the EU citizens here not be able to use their national driving licenses and Irish lorries not to use the land bridge, etc, etc, etc?
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you warn so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Big G, I think you’re mixing up ‘crash out Brexit’ with ‘hard Brexit’
Hard Brexit is leaving CU/SM/ECJ, and the orbit of the EU as well as the institutions.
Soft Brexit is staying in the above.
The chequers deal is closer to hard Brexit than soft Brexit, but might not be hard enough for voters.
I am happy for a soft Brexit. I am talking of a hard Brexit that to date has had no planning and no one with a plan
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you warn so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Big G, I think you’re mixing up ‘crash out Brexit’ with ‘hard Brexit’
Hard Brexit is leaving CU/SM/ECJ, and the orbit of the EU as well as the institutions.
Soft Brexit is staying in the above.
The chequers deal is closer to hard Brexit than soft Brexit, but might not be hard enough for voters.
Unicorn alert. The only way to achieve your definition of Hard Brexit is through a crash out Brexit.
No, it isn’t. It would be perfectly possible to transition to Canada or Canada++ etc
Just remember I called this Con collapse at around 10pm on 6th July when everyone on here was saying Theresa had played a blinder bitch slapping the Brexiteers....
You did, and I confess I was one of the sceptics about your prediction.
I still wouldn't get quite as excited by one poll as some of the comments here, though. Let's see the trend over the next few days.
It is obvious he sees political capital in crashing the deal and campaigning that staying in is the only choice.
Politics
If that is his plan it's a very Mandelson over-think. He's just as likely to facilitate no deal and look an idiot while the rest of us suffer.
The article shows other ultra-Remainers like Umunna taking the same position. It's quite significant, since it means there probably isn't a Commons majority for the Chequers deal.
Umunna sees himself as the Messiah of the Remainers taking the UK back into the single market in a decade once the voters have had their fill of Corbyn and hard Brexiteers.
However like Mandelson he may also just be too clever by half
That's nothing - it seems like when such a story breaks it always involves thousands upon thousands of texts. Those FBI agents who were dismissed from the Mueller investigation for example.
If it’s of any consolation to Tories on here, I’d advise not to get excited over one VI poll. Although given the way VI polls have changed so much since Spring 2017, even if you believe VI polls - nothing should be taken as definitive.
To reduce the "noise" in the polls, I use an Exponential Moving Average (EMA) which gives just 10% weight to the latest poll.
Adding this latest Opinium poll to the EMA puts the Tories on 39.9% and Labour on 39.1%. So the Tories still ahead.
Using Electoral Calculus with latest Scottish opinion poll (EMA) gives Tories on 302, i.e. 24 short of a majority, losing 16 seats to Labour, 3 to the LDs and one to the SNP.
On a non partisan note, can anyone remember a time when both main parties were helmed by such inept, calamitous and unpopular leaders?
I can't. Does the polling back this up, has there ever been a similar period when both major party leaders were so disliked and disrespected?
Major was crap, but he faced Smith and Blair. Heath was shit, but he faced the wily Wilson. Brown was an idiot, but the Tories had Cameron. Etc.
The scary thing is that it will get worse before it gets better. We will look back fondly on these two. Who thought Ed Milliband and William Hague would look like titans.
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Well if we agree a transition deal but no FTA is forthcoming we have plenty of time to prepare before it ends
To be fair to Kim Jong Un he does have some conservative characteristics which is maybe why he got on so well with Trump.
However conservatives really support constitutional monarchy not absolute monarchy and dictatorship
One of the pleasures of PB is the sheer range of viewpoints. "To be fair to Kim Jong Un he does have some conservative characteristics" is not a comment you hear every day.
Just remember I called this Con collapse at around 10pm on 6th July when everyone on here was saying Theresa had played a blinder bitch slapping the Brexiteers....
You did, and I confess I was one of the sceptics about your prediction.
I still wouldn't get quite as excited by one poll as some of the comments here, though. Let's see the trend over the next few days.
It is hard to see the trend reversing. The resignations have achieved their aim in that the membership/voters, or a significant proportion of whom at least, consider it a bad deal. Even if the EU were now to accept it as read, which seems unlikely, that will be seen by such as a bad deal not worth taking.
May's only hope, as far as I can see, is to push ahead, hope some Labour votes counters her own rebels (though I don't see enough doing so), and she then steps down in March. We then at least move on to fresher arguments from a position where we have bought a few years, and the party can hope said new approach revives their poll fortunes with enough time to counter Corbyn in 2022. I still think this is what JRM and co want, else why delay sending in their letters?
Makes me confident that the UK will rejoin the EU after the poop show of a no deal Brexit.
Funnily enough, I am coming round to that view myself. And I wonder whether the EU would prefer that too - they of course can ensure it happens by rejecting May's plan (so much for taking back control, lol)
There are two kinds of No Deal Brexit.
1. By far the most preferable, each side accepts that the differences between them can't be bridged. They agree to work towards trading on WTO terms in an orderly manner. This likely requires an extension of A50.
2. Really, no deal. All airplanes with British-made parts stop flying on 30th March 2019, so that most of the world''s airlines stop functioning. There is gridlock at Holyhead, Dover, Folkestone, Calais, Zeebrugge, Cherbourg. European financial markets cease to operate.
A 5.5% swing from Conservative to UKIP is the equivalent of about 1.73 million votes moving from one party to the other.
Only consolation for the Tories is Corbyn would still be about 12 seats short of a majority
If Labour looks to be faring well across GB , I would expect their support to rally in Scotland where they would be well placed to pick up circa 20 seats - mainly from SNP but also a few from the Tories.
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Well if we agree a transition deal but no FTA is forthcoming we have plenty of time to prepare before it ends
Still no answer. You really need to provide one whether you think it is a soft or hard Brexit
* A monarch has a "job for a life", so quintessentially Socialist! * The hereditary principle is so common among Socialist dynasties around the world, such as the Kims in North Korea, the Nehru-Gandhis in India, and the Benn Kinnocks in the UK! * Pomp and circumstance: Trooping the Colour is merely a scaled down version of all those tightly choreographed North Korean parades!
So, I put it to you, PBers, that Monarchy = Socialism!
No for the umpteenth time monarchy and support for a strong nation state are the epitome of conservatism.
Another monarcho-socialist writes!
Monarchy is not socialism, witness the Romanovs murder by the Bolsheviks.
You confuse liberalism and conservatism
Note: the monarcho-socialist HYUFD responds to the stimulus as predicted!
The opposite of socialism is actually free market liberalism not conservatism in any case, conservatism is not socialism but nor is it liberalism either, above all it represents tradition
Note: the subject HYUFD continues to have his delusional world manipulated successfully!
A 5.5% swing from Conservative to UKIP is the equivalent of about 1.73 million votes moving from one party to the other.
Only consolation for the Tories is Corbyn would still be about 12 seats short of a majority
If Labour looks to be faring well across GB , I would expect their support to rally in Scotland where they would be well placed to pick up circa 20 seats - mainly from SNP but also a few from the Tories.
Didn’t latest polls show Labour falling back in Scotland?
A 5.5% swing from Conservative to UKIP is the equivalent of about 1.73 million votes moving from one party to the other.
Only consolation for the Tories is Corbyn would still be about 12 seats short of a majority
If Labour looks to be faring well across GB , I would expect their support to rally in Scotland where they would be well placed to pick up circa 20 seats - mainly from SNP but also a few from the Tories.
The most recent Survation and YouGov Scotland only polls show Labour on course to have one MP in Scotland.
It is obvious he sees political capital in crashing the deal and campaigning that staying in is the only choice.
Politics
If that is his plan it's a very Mandelson over-think. He's just as likely to facilitate no deal and look an idiot while the rest of us suffer.
The article shows other ultra-Remainers like Umunna taking the same position. It's quite significant, since it means there probably isn't a Commons majority for the Chequers deal.
Umunna sees himself as the Messiah of the Remainers taking the UK back into the single market in a decade once the voters have had their fill of Corbyn and hard Brexiteers.
However like Mandelson he may also just be too clever by half
Chukka sees himself as stopping Brexit in it tracks, not in ten years. I have no idea where you source these stories of yours but there is a growing chance he may succeed
Whinge whinge whinge. Democracy would not be ignored by the May deal, even if it is crap. It might not be popular, but it wouldn't be against democracy.
For heaven's sake, and in all seriousness now, May should write her own letter calling for a vote of no confidence in herself (not a resignation letter, but calling for a vote). It is beyond pathetic to see the Tories spit such hatred at one another and not have an actual fight about this, which enables them to pretend if they were taking a different choice all would be hunky dory.
Just remember I called this Con collapse at around 10pm on 6th July when everyone on here was saying Theresa had played a blinder bitch slapping the Brexiteers....
You did, and I confess I was one of the sceptics about your prediction.
I still wouldn't get quite as excited by one poll as some of the comments here, though. Let's see the trend over the next few days.
It is hard to see the trend reversing. The resignations have achieved their aim in that the membership/voters, or a significant proportion of whom at least, consider it a bad deal. Even if the EU were now to accept it as read, which seems unlikely, that will be seen by such as a bad deal not worth taking.
May's only hope, as far as I can see, is to push ahead, hope some Labour votes counters her own rebels (though I don't see enough doing so), and she then steps down in March. We then at least move on to fresher arguments from a position where we have bought a few years, and the party can hope said new approach revives their poll fortunes with enough time to counter Corbyn in 2022. I still think this is what JRM and co want, else why delay sending in their letters?
I'd like to see how this 32/32 split divides by party. If say, Chequers has majority support among Conservatives then May can press ahead.
As noted downthread, masterful inactivity has been effective politically, but if he, or you, try to claim later he would have done a better job negotiating things it would be a falsehood, since his playing a blinder involves not antagonising his own factions and not taking firm views. So he can take the political plaudits for not interrupting the Tories while making a mistake, but he should not dare suggest he cared about presenting a better alternative plan.
A 5.5% swing from Conservative to UKIP is the equivalent of about 1.73 million votes moving from one party to the other.
Only consolation for the Tories is Corbyn would still be about 12 seats short of a majority
If Labour looks to be faring well across GB , I would expect their support to rally in Scotland where they would be well placed to pick up circa 20 seats - mainly from SNP but also a few from the Tories.
The most recent Survation and YouGov Scotland only polls show Labour on course to have one MP in Scotland.
Didn't the ones prior to 2017 say that too, or even not getting one?
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
Sorry but the Tories have lost 6% within a week after switching from a hard Brexit to a soft Brexit platform. May or no May the root of the polling problem is clear
Just remember I called this Con collapse at around 10pm on 6th July when everyone on here was saying Theresa had played a blinder bitch slapping the Brexiteers....
You did, and I confess I was one of the sceptics about your prediction.
I still wouldn't get quite as excited by one poll as some of the comments here, though. Let's see the trend over the next few days.
It is hard to see the trend reversing. The resignations have achieved their aim in that the membership/voters, or a significant proportion of whom at least, consider it a bad deal. Even if the EU were now to accept it as read, which seems unlikely, that will be seen by such as a bad deal not worth taking.
May's only hope, as far as I can see, is to push ahead, hope some Labour votes counters her own rebels (though I don't see enough doing so), and she then steps down in March. We then at least move on to fresher arguments from a position where we have bought a few years, and the party can hope said new approach revives their poll fortunes with enough time to counter Corbyn in 2022. I still think this is what JRM and co want, else why delay sending in their letters?
I'd like to see how this 32/32 split divides by party. If say, Chequers has majority support among Conservatives then May can press ahead.
I very much doubt it does - the reaction to it appears to be horrendous, and we know the party members seem to be much more willing to go no deal than May is (that is, not at all). But if they won't take her down, and she knows now that keeping all on side is impossible, she might as well press ahead regardless.
What's the alternative? Wait to see if the anvil will drop re the leadership letters? They're either holding off tactically or somehow don't have the numbers. See if she can win them round? She can't, that was the whole Chequers gambit, and it failed.
Push on, see if the EU can agree, and see if a contest is called. If it looks like Labour won't back it, go for a referendum on the deal - at that point all sides would probably back one, for different reasons).
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Well if we agree a transition deal but no FTA is forthcoming we have plenty of time to prepare before it ends
Still no answer. You really need to provide one whether you think it is a soft or hard Brexit
Ultimately if it is hard Brexit we simply go to WTO terms and of course remember most of our exports now let alone our whole economy do not depend on trade with the EU
If the end result of Brexit is a Corbyn government, I will officially regret my Leave vote.
These polls are dire for the Tories. Theresa May is far, far worse than Brown or Major. She has to go, but when? I suppose Tories must let her deliver her awful Brexit, then sack her in April, and blame it all on her.
But Holy Christ, GET RID OF THIS AUTISTIC COW
If there was a 2nd referendum right now, I'm not sure how I'd vote. Probably - just about - LEAVE, but bloody hell I am not at all sure.
It is only a hard Brexit which will keep Corbyn out and prevent Tory Leavers moving to UKIP it seems.
So either choice not great for the country or the economy
You still haven't responded to the question I have now asked twice today of you.
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Well if we agree a transition deal but no FTA is forthcoming we have plenty of time to prepare before it ends
Still no answer. You really need to provide one whether you think it is a soft or hard Brexit
Ultimately if it is hard Brexit we simply go to WTO terms and of course remember most of our exports now let alone our whole economy do not depend on trade with the EU
A 5.5% swing from Conservative to UKIP is the equivalent of about 1.73 million votes moving from one party to the other.
Only consolation for the Tories is Corbyn would still be about 12 seats short of a majority
If Labour looks to be faring well across GB , I would expect their support to rally in Scotland where they would be well placed to pick up circa 20 seats - mainly from SNP but also a few from the Tories.
Didn’t latest polls show Labour falling back in Scotland?
Yes. On current polls, Labour lose four to the SNP and the Tories lose one.
A 5.5% swing from Conservative to UKIP is the equivalent of about 1.73 million votes moving from one party to the other.
Only consolation for the Tories is Corbyn would still be about 12 seats short of a majority
If Labour looks to be faring well across GB , I would expect their support to rally in Scotland where they would be well placed to pick up circa 20 seats - mainly from SNP but also a few from the Tories.
The most recent Survation and YouGov Scotland only polls show Labour on course to have one MP in Scotland.
Didn't the ones prior to 2017 say that too, or even not getting one?
They did , it might be the case that many former Labour voters might desert the SNP in a UK GE In their mind to end a Tory government at Westminster.
Whinge whinge whinge. Democracy would not be ignored by the May deal, even if it is crap. It might not be popular, but it wouldn't be against democracy.
For heaven's sake, and in all seriousness now, May should write her own letter calling for a vote of no confidence in herself (not a resignation letter, but calling for a vote). It is beyond pathetic to see the Tories spit such hatred at one another and not have an actual fight about this, which enables them to pretend if they were taking a different choice all would be hunky dory.
You may be right. But recess is just a week away and I'm pretty sure she's playing for time.
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
Sorry but the Tories have lost 6% within a week after switching from a hard Brexit to a soft Brexit platform. May or no May the root of the polling problem is clear
It's been plain for months that May is not aiming for hard Brexit.
On a non partisan note, can anyone remember a time when both main parties were helmed by such inept, calamitous and unpopular leaders?
I can't. Does the polling back this up, has there ever been a similar period when both major party leaders were so disliked and disrespected?
Major was crap, but he faced Smith and Blair. Heath was shit, but he faced the wily Wilson. Brown was an idiot, but the Tories had Cameron. Etc.
Major was not crap, he left a growing economy, kept us in the EU with opt outs and won a successful Gulf War with an international coalition. He also beat Kinnock.
Thatcher v Foot left little room for centrists bar the SDP but Thatcher was certainly not crap.
Heath v Wilson is probably the closest, Wilson was fresh to begin with but by the late 1960s and 1970s both he and Heath left high inflation and heavy strikes
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
Sorry but the Tories have lost 6% within a week after switching from a hard Brexit to a soft Brexit platform. May or no May the root of the polling problem is clear
Sorry, but they didn't switch to a soft brexit - they hadn't agreed a position prior to then. That was the big failure of May this year, the indecision. Whatever noises she may have made before, Chequers was about being clear what we were asking for.
And as usual you ignore that confirming a hard brexit doesn't solve the problem, and we know it doesn't solve it or there would have been action against her directly, not just resignations. Why has she gone down this route? For fun? You make it sound so ridiculously easier, in which case why have Boris and co not removed her? I don't believe for one second 48 letters could not be rustled up. If the plan is so bad, and so unpopular, why have they not come out, right now tonight, and said she must go?
Are they gutless for some reason? Why would that be when it would solve all their problems so simply - you believe not only do the party want no deal/ hard brexit, so do the country, so why are they permitting May to delude herself that her deal is possible?
A contest may well come, but there's no excuse for why it has not already occurred if the rhetoric of the harder leavers is sincere, and if you are right about how popular it would be.
May’s strategy is to get Parliament to pass a meaningful vote not on the future relationship with the EU, which will be expressed in the most meaningless blather, but on the Withdrawl Agreement.
Effectively she is aims to kick the can so that the precise relationship with the EU post Brexit in 2019 will be someone’s else’s job to figure out during transition.
Of course the EU have never have any incentive to agree any deal and so, if May has her way, the most likely Brexit is a kind of taxation without representation limbo.
Hopefully Parliament will stop her. Limbo vassal Brexit appeals neither to principled Brexiters or Remainers.
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
Sorry but the Tories have lost 6% within a week after switching from a hard Brexit to a soft Brexit platform. May or no May the root of the polling problem is clear
It's been plain for months that May is not aiming for hard Brexit.
A 5.5% swing from Conservative to UKIP is the equivalent of about 1.73 million votes moving from one party to the other.
Only consolation for the Tories is Corbyn would still be about 12 seats short of a majority
If Labour looks to be faring well across GB , I would expect their support to rally in Scotland where they would be well placed to pick up circa 20 seats - mainly from SNP but also a few from the Tories.
To be fair to Corbyn he did better in Scotland in the General Election campaign and picked up 6 SNP seats in the central belt
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
I agree to a certain extent. One could argue May screwed it up during that election campaign where she pulled the Maybot routine and blew the lead. Or that the country messed it up by voting for Brexit then electing a weak government to implement it. Or maybe the Tory party messed it up by electing a remainer. But then there was only Leadsom etc etc.
But May does need to go if there is any truth to Steve Baker's comments. An absolute disgrace. Think we need a hard Brexiteer then we need a general election and/or referendum Mk II.
It is obvious he sees political capital in crashing the deal and campaigning that staying in is the only choice.
Politics
If that is his plan it's a very Mandelson over-think. He's just as likely to facilitate no deal and look an idiot while the rest of us suffer.
The article shows other ultra-Remainers like Umunna taking the same position. It's quite significant, since it means there probably isn't a Commons majority for the Chequers deal.
Umunna sees himself as the Messiah of the Remainers taking the UK back into the single market in a decade once the voters have had their fill of Corbyn and hard Brexiteers.
However like Mandelson he may also just be too clever by half
Chukka sees himself as stopping Brexit in it tracks, not in ten years. I have no idea where you source these stories of yours but there is a growing chance he may succeed
On what grounds? Currently we have the governing Tory Party which may soon be led by a hard Brexiteer and the Leader of the Opposition who wants to leave the Single Market and backs Brexit.
If that is 'stopping Brexit in its tracks', I'm a Chinaman
May’s strategy is to get Parliament to pass a meaningful vote not on the future relationship with the EU, which will be expressed in the most meaningless blather, but on the Withdrawl Agreement.
Effectively she is aims to kick the can so that the precise relationship with the EU post Brexit in 2019 will be someone’s else’s job to figure out during transition.
Of course the EU have never have any incentive to agree any deal and so, if May has her way, the most likely Brexit is a kind of taxation without representation limbo.
Hopefully Parliament will stop her. Limbo vassal Brexit appeals neither to principled Brexiters or Remainers.
Whinge whinge whinge. Democracy would not be ignored by the May deal, even if it is crap. It might not be popular, but it wouldn't be against democracy.
For heaven's sake, and in all seriousness now, May should write her own letter calling for a vote of no confidence in herself (not a resignation letter, but calling for a vote). It is beyond pathetic to see the Tories spit such hatred at one another and not have an actual fight about this, which enables them to pretend if they were taking a different choice all would be hunky dory.
You may be right. But recess is just a week away and I'm pretty sure she's playing for time.
That's all she has been doing all year, to all our detriment. Everyone could see she would not get all sides of her party on board with a final proposal, though a harder one would have been easier I have no doubt (in which case I actually respect her a bit for trying something softer, since she must truly believe it is the best option, not just proposing something cynically).
This will just fester for months and months (conference season will be fun). She knows she is not fighting the next election as PM (and after seeing us through Brexit, retirement would probably be a welcome relief even if it goes well), not in a million years, and knows a fudge was going to be unpopular I am sure. She might as well have just done this sooner, alas.
I just don't get how the JRM crowd can justify not bringing her down, or at least attempting it. Even if they think May would win a vote right now, shouldn't they at least try to prevent a horrible deal, rather than trust in the EU to scupper it?
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
Sorry but the Tories have lost 6% within a week after switching from a hard Brexit to a soft Brexit platform. May or no May the root of the polling problem is clear
Sorry, but they didn't switch to a soft brexit - they hadn't agreed a position prior to then. That was the big failure of May this year, the indecision. Whatever noises she may have made before, Chequers was about being clear what we were asking for.
And as usual you ignore that confirming a hard brexit doesn't solve the problem, and we know it doesn't solve it or there would have been action against her directly, not just resignations. Why has she gone down this route? For fun? You make it sound so ridiculously easier, in which case why have Boris and co not removed her? I don't believe for one second 48 letters could not be rustled up. If the plan is so bad, and so unpopular, why have they not come out, right now tonight, and said she must go?
Are they gutless for some reason? Why would that be when it would solve all their problems so simply - you believe not only do the party want no deal/ hard brexit, so do the country, so why are they permitting May to delude herself that her deal is possible?
A contest may well come, but there's no excuse for why it has not already occurred if the rhetoric of the harder leavers is sincere, and if you are right about how popular it would be.
HYUFD speaks as if the party has gone all UKIP.
There are a good 200 - 230 conservative MP's who will fight a hard Brexit thankfully.
May has tried to come out with a solution but both extremes want a full extreme result.
She could be replaced, indeed she couod resign, but to use her words ' nothing changes'
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
I agree to a certain extent. One could argue May screwed it up during that election campaign where she pulled the Maybot routine and blew the lead. Or that the country messed it up by voting for Brexit then electing a weak government to implement it. Or maybe the Tory party messed it up by electing a remainer. But then there was only Leadsom etc etc.
But May does need to go if there is any truth to Steve Baker's comments. An absolute disgrace. Think we need a hard Brexiteer then we need a general election and/or referendum Mk II.
If May has been secretly sabotaging Brexit from the outset, then the solution to this problem lies in the hands of the Parliamentary Party.
I agree to a certain extent. One could argue May screwed it up during that election campaign where she pulled the Maybot routine and blew the lead. Or that the country messed it up by voting for Brexit then electing a weak government to implement it. Or maybe the Tory party messed it up by electing a remainer. But then there was only Leadsom etc etc.
But May does need to go if there is any truth to Steve Baker's comments. An absolute disgrace. Think we need a hard Brexiteer then we need a general election and/or referendum Mk II.
A GE would be hard as the Tories are so split they won't want one, and though a referendum would not solve everything it may well be the only way to get something agreed, depending on the options.
It does seem very likely that May was right in saying she needed a large majority to get Brexit done (no matter if that hard or soft, frankly), or that someone needed a large majority anyway, but we have what we have. May has lost the support of her party who are (as yet) unwilling to take her down for some reason, Labour are needed to get her plan through but they have no reason to do so, and hardcore remainers see a chance to stop brexit rather than go for something harder brexiteers think is too soft. A right mess indeed.
I never knew I was so naiive as to assume while it would be tough, and bitter, that it would be this tough and bitter.
That phrase was always meaningless. She could have meant it and argue sincerely this proposed deal delivers it, because it is so meaningless. It is just a part of a trend to pretend only one type of brexit is the real brexit.
There are certain things a majority of people would expect from brexit which the may deal might not deliver, and so would be politically very damaging (hence the polling impact) but it would still be brexit.
Well it is one possibility, though I think JRM and co are calling her bluff - they are banking no deal by running out the clock will occur I think.
Either May goes, very quickly, and no deal is positivelyadopted as the approach, or the Tories need to face up to the fact that they will have lower poll numbers for the forseeable future and suck it up as a necessary price for a deal.
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
Sorry but the Tories have lost 6% within a week after switching from a hard Brexit to a soft Brexit platform. May or no May the root of the polling problem is clear
Sorry, but they didn't switch to a soft brexit - they hadn't agreed a position prior to then. That was the big failure of May this year, the indecision. Whatever noises she may have made before, Chequers was about being no deal/ hard brexit, so do the country, so why are they permitting May to delude herself that her deal is possible?
A contest may well come, but there's no excuse for why it has not already occurred if the rhetoric of the harder leavers is sincere, and if you are right about how popular it would be.
HYUFD speaks as if the party has gone all UKIP.
There are a good 200 - 230 conservative MP's who will fight a hard Brexit thankfully.
May has tried to come out with a solution but both extremes want a full extreme result.
She could be replaced, indeed she couod resign, but to use her words ' nothing changes'
What a total mess
Look Big G. We have had 3 polls since this Chequers Deal all of which have Labour ahead and the Tories down and UKIP up.
So it is not so much the party has gone all UKIP but many of the party's voters have gone to UKIP.
If it does not get them back Corbyn will be PM while we will still be out of the single market.
It is obvious he sees political capital in crashing the deal and campaigning that staying in is the only choice.
Politics
If that is his plan it's a very Mandelson over-think. He's just as likely to facilitate no deal and look an idiot while the rest of us suffer.
The article shows other ultra-Remainers like Umunna taking the same position. It's quite significant, since it means there probably isn't a Commons majority for the Chequers deal.
Umunna sees himself as the Messiah of the Remainers taking the UK back into the single market in a decade once the voters have had their fill of Corbyn and hard Brexiteers.
However like Mandelson he may also just be too clever by half
Chukka sees himself as stopping Brexit in it tracks, not in ten years. I have no idea where you source these stories of yours but there is a growing chance he may succeed
On what grounds? Currently we have the governing Tory Party which may soon be led by a hard Brexiteer and the Leader of the Opposition who wants to leave the Single Market and backs Brexit.
If that is 'stopping Brexit in its tracks', I'm a Chinaman
You do not seem to have any alternative views to your own ill thought processes.
It does not matter who replaces TM the maths in the HOC will stop a hard Brexit
The Piers Morgan interview is total crap. He writes like an idiot and comes across as an utter sycophant.
Here he is, talking to Melania:
‘I hope this doesn’t sound too patronising,’ I told her, ‘but I have great admiration for the way you have conducted yourself as First Lady. A friend of mine (Sarah Brown) did this kind of job when her husband became British Prime Minister so I know how tough it can be.’
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
Sorry but the Tories have lost 6% within a week after switching from a hard Brexit to a soft Brexit platform. May or no May the root of the polling problem is clear
Sorry, but they didn't switch to a soft brexit - they hadn't agreed a position prior to then. That was the big failure of May this year, the indecision. Whatever noises she may have made before, Chequers was about being no deal/ hard brexit, so do the country, so why are they permitting May to delude herself that her deal is possible?
A contest may well come, but there's no excuse for why it has not already occurred if the rhetoric of the harder leavers is sincere, and if you are right about how popular it would be.
HYUFD speaks as if the party has gone all UKIP.
There are a good 200 - 230 conservative MP's who will fight a hard Brexit thankfully.
May has tried to come out with a solution but both extremes want a full extreme result.
She could be replaced, indeed she couod resign, but to use her words ' nothing changes'
What a total mess
Look Big G. We have had 3 polls since this Chequers Deal all of which have Labour ahead and the Tories down and UKIP up.
So it is not so much the party has gone all UKIP but many of the party's voters have gone to UKIP.
If it does not get them back Corbyn will be PM while we will still be out of the single market.
End of conversation
I do not want to fall out with you but this is heading for a second vote
Anyone seen the telegraph article with comments from Steve Baker? Explosive stuff. Think the Tories are finished unless May goes.
How does her going now help? There seems a lot of confusion over why they are taking hits in polling to my view. This 'It's May' approach seems to ignore why May is doing what she is doing - a hopelessly divided party and a damn difficult negotiation to try to resolve. She's done a pretty bad job of it in fairness. But replace May with Boris and see how his no deal/hard brexit goes down, with the internal fights certain to still take place given we have a Cabinet of Tory MPs supporting something else already, and they would still be in big trouble.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
Sorry but the Tories have lost 6% within a week after switching from a hard Brexit to a soft Brexit platform. May or no May the root of the polling problem is clear
Sorry, but they didn't switch to a soft brexit - they hadn't agreed a position prior to then. That was the big failure of May this year, the indecision. Whatever noises she may have made before, Chequers was about being no deal/ hard brexit, so do the country, so why are they permitting May to delude herself that her deal is possible?
A contest may well come, but there's no excuse for why it has not already occurred if the rhetoric of the harder leavers is sincere, and if you are right about how popular it would be.
HYUFD speaks as if the party has gone all UKIP.
There are a good 200 - 230 conservative MP's who will fight a hard Brexit thankfully.
May has tried to come out with a solution but both extremes want a full extreme result.
She could be replaced, indeed she couod resign, but to use her words ' nothing changes'
What a total mess
Look Big G. We have had 3 polls since this Chequers Deal all of which have Labour ahead and the Tories down and UKIP up.
So it is not so much the party has gone all UKIP but many of the party's voters have gone to UKIP.
If it does not get them back Corbyn will be PM while we will still be out of the single market.
End of conversation
Does it not occur that some Conservatives might fall away if the party as a whole adopts the stance of JRM?
Comments
You confuse liberalism and conservatism
My biggest issues would be relentlessly staying on message and my sarcasm getting me into trouble.
The other aspect being a candidate/MP is really hard on your family. I know one MP who showed me all the abuse he and his staff had to deal with (this way before Brexit) and the dread when an unrecognised number rang your home.
I don't think my mother would have been able to come up with all the abuse I'd have gotten on social media.
Yes but as HYUFD has been pointing out "euophobes" VASTLY outweigh "europhiles" in today's modern day Conservative Party.
Upset europhiles and Con will drop a bit. Upset europhobes and Con will collapse. As we're starting to see....
How do you stop planes being grounded, log jams at ports, Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover and others migrating back to Europe, the loss of EU wide health cover and non visa travel . How are you proposing to prevent the markets and currencies crashing and investment pouring out of the Country as you so often warn us would happen under Corbyn
I am so interested in your answer as to date, not one Brexiteer has made the argument
Makes me confident that the UK will rejoin the EU after the poop show of a no deal Brexit.
Hard Brexit is leaving CU/SM/ECJ, and the orbit of the EU as well as the institutions.
Soft Brexit is staying in the above.
The chequers deal is closer to hard Brexit than soft Brexit, but might not be hard enough for voters.
If Corbyn becomes PM against a Tory PM campaigning on a soft Brexit platform you can guarantee the next Tory leader of the Opposition will be a hard Brexiteer
https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1018237782815399942
This all or nothing approach seems pretty childish when there are such serious consequences. Problem is May has not been able to sell her approach to her own party, and so Labour's support will be crucial, and even if it is a good plan they won't back it because of their deliberately vague approach.
So it may well be a dead deal. It doesn't make remaining after all much easier, even though it will be an option. No deal becomes vastly more likely.
I still wouldn't get quite as excited by one poll as some of the comments here, though. Let's see the trend over the next few days.
However like Mandelson he may also just be too clever by half
The country had a recession and riots and Foot was so left wing the SDP was formed.
Adding this latest Opinium poll to the EMA puts the Tories on 39.9% and Labour on 39.1%. So the Tories still ahead.
Using Electoral Calculus with latest Scottish opinion poll (EMA) gives Tories on 302, i.e. 24 short of a majority, losing 16 seats to Labour, 3 to the LDs and one to the SNP.
It’s a downward trend.
2022 Abbot v Mogg
https://twitter.com/peterward09/status/1018182088489619456?s=21
May's only hope, as far as I can see, is to push ahead, hope some Labour votes counters her own rebels (though I don't see enough doing so), and she then steps down in March. We then at least move on to fresher arguments from a position where we have bought a few years, and the party can hope said new approach revives their poll fortunes with enough time to counter Corbyn in 2022. I still think this is what JRM and co want, else why delay sending in their letters?
1. By far the most preferable, each side accepts that the differences between them can't be bridged. They agree to work towards trading on WTO terms in an orderly manner. This likely requires an extension of A50.
2. Really, no deal. All airplanes with British-made parts stop flying on 30th March 2019, so that most of the world''s airlines stop functioning. There is gridlock at Holyhead, Dover, Folkestone, Calais, Zeebrugge, Cherbourg. European financial markets cease to operate.
For heaven's sake, and in all seriousness now, May should write her own letter calling for a vote of no confidence in herself (not a resignation letter, but calling for a vote). It is beyond pathetic to see the Tories spit such hatred at one another and not have an actual fight about this, which enables them to pretend if they were taking a different choice all would be hunky dory.
May has made things worse by dithering, but she is a symptom of the problem. If replacing her was all it would take to 'save' the party, they surely really would have done it already.
They haven't. Why? Because it wouldn't solve their problems.
What delights we have to look forward to under a Corbyn and McDonnell government
Well, anyone surprised?
What's the alternative? Wait to see if the anvil will drop re the leadership letters? They're either holding off tactically or somehow don't have the numbers. See if she can win them round? She can't, that was the whole Chequers gambit, and it failed.
Push on, see if the EU can agree, and see if a contest is called. If it looks like Labour won't back it, go for a referendum on the deal - at that point all sides would probably back one, for different reasons).
In their mind to end a Tory government at Westminster.
Thatcher v Foot left little room for centrists bar the SDP but Thatcher was certainly not crap.
Heath v Wilson is probably the closest, Wilson was fresh to begin with but by the late 1960s and 1970s both he and Heath left high inflation and heavy strikes
But that is a keeper even by your standards
Labour has had more positions on Brexit than there are in the Karma Sutra.
Even Barry Gardiner described one of your various positions as "bollocks"
You do realise Corbyn needs Brexit to enact his program?
And as usual you ignore that confirming a hard brexit doesn't solve the problem, and we know it doesn't solve it or there would have been action against her directly, not just resignations. Why has she gone down this route? For fun? You make it sound so ridiculously easier, in which case why have Boris and co not removed her? I don't believe for one second 48 letters could not be rustled up. If the plan is so bad, and so unpopular, why have they not come out, right now tonight, and said she must go?
Are they gutless for some reason? Why would that be when it would solve all their problems so simply - you believe not only do the party want no deal/ hard brexit, so do the country, so why are they permitting May to delude herself that her deal is possible?
A contest may well come, but there's no excuse for why it has not already occurred if the rhetoric of the harder leavers is sincere, and if you are right about how popular it would be.
Effectively she is aims to kick the can so that the precise relationship with the EU post Brexit in 2019 will be someone’s else’s job to figure out during transition.
Of course the EU have never have any incentive to agree any deal and so, if May has her way, the most likely Brexit is a kind of taxation without representation limbo.
Hopefully Parliament will stop her. Limbo vassal Brexit appeals neither to principled Brexiters or Remainers.
She did tell us "Brexit means Brexit"
I suspect people thought she meant it
But May does need to go if there is any truth to Steve Baker's comments. An absolute disgrace. Think we need a hard Brexiteer then we need a general election and/or referendum Mk II.
If that is 'stopping Brexit in its tracks', I'm a Chinaman
This will just fester for months and months (conference season will be fun). She knows she is not fighting the next election as PM (and after seeing us through Brexit, retirement would probably be a welcome relief even if it goes well), not in a million years, and knows a fudge was going to be unpopular I am sure. She might as well have just done this sooner, alas.
I just don't get how the JRM crowd can justify not bringing her down, or at least attempting it. Even if they think May would win a vote right now, shouldn't they at least try to prevent a horrible deal, rather than trust in the EU to scupper it?
There are a good 200 - 230 conservative MP's who will fight a hard Brexit thankfully.
May has tried to come out with a solution but both extremes want a full extreme result.
She could be replaced, indeed she couod resign, but to use her words ' nothing changes'
What a total mess
Burn Baby BURN.
It does seem very likely that May was right in saying she needed a large majority to get Brexit done (no matter if that hard or soft, frankly), or that someone needed a large majority anyway, but we have what we have. May has lost the support of her party who are (as yet) unwilling to take her down for some reason, Labour are needed to get her plan through but they have no reason to do so, and hardcore remainers see a chance to stop brexit rather than go for something harder brexiteers think is too soft. A right mess indeed.
I never knew I was so naiive as to assume while it would be tough, and bitter, that it would be this tough and bitter. That phrase was always meaningless. She could have meant it and argue sincerely this proposed deal delivers it, because it is so meaningless. It is just a part of a trend to pretend only one type of brexit is the real brexit.
There are certain things a majority of people would expect from brexit which the may deal might not deliver, and so would be politically very damaging (hence the polling impact) but it would still be brexit.
Either May goes, very quickly, and no deal is positivelyadopted as the approach, or the Tories need to face up to the fact that they will have lower poll numbers for the forseeable future and suck it up as a necessary price for a deal.
Verified account
@DavidWooding
Labour surges into a five-point lead over Tories, in a @DeltapollUK poll for The Sun on Sunday tomorrow.
So it is not so much the party has gone all UKIP but many of the party's voters have gone to UKIP.
If it does not get them back Corbyn will be PM while we will still be out of the single market.
End of conversation
Something in their for everybody.
A Blinder of all blinders despite Chunks and co.
https://www.gopetition.com/petitions/open-letter-to-mrs-louise-hunt-senior-coroner-birmingham-solihull-coroners-service.html
It does not matter who replaces TM the maths in the HOC will stop a hard Brexit
He writes like an idiot and comes across as an utter sycophant.
Here he is, talking to Melania:
‘I hope this doesn’t sound too patronising,’ I told her, ‘but I have great admiration for the way you have conducted yourself as First Lady. A friend of mine (Sarah Brown) did this kind of job when her husband became British Prime Minister so I know how tough it can be.’