Mr. Pulpstar, aye. Federer's record is an order of magnitude more impressive than Serena Williams'. She's very good, but who's her rival? She has a crushingly strong record against Sharapova. Henin and Clijsters retired fairly early, I think, into Williams' career.
Federer's been there with Nadal, Djokovic and Murray. Before them Roddick (no mean player) was perhaps his greatest challenger.
Perhaps she didn't have serious rivals because she was more than "very good"?
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
Have to say Gin, you've called all of her big mistakes correctly. I remember when it was me, you and SeanT telling the rest of PB that her dementia tax was a disaster for our election chances. I did think the petty nature of the taxi stuff would come back and bite her in the bum as well, but not this badly.
It's a serious time when both the British and German governments could conceivably collapse at any time. We probably haven't had that combination since 1945.
David Miliband would have been a poor choice for Labour leader. He would have endeavoured to help May with her broken promises to Brexit voters whereas Corbyn is happy allowing her to swing in the wind.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
It works both ways. May should have treated them with more respect - see Chequers for example: phones confiscated, taxis for resignees, papers shared with Berlin before the cabinet etc.
Yeah, because their disloyalty only started on Friday ...
The hardcore have been plotting and scheming against her since she became PM.
Reaminers love Theresa's Chequers deal. Tells you exactly why Leavers (who won the referendum and with who May owe's her job to) are currently pulling the plug on her government.
I think that hardcore Remainers like williamglenn and Scott_P like it because they think it will result in the fall of the government, and the end of Brexit. I think hardcore Leavers hate it, because it leaves us in close orbit around the EU.
But a lot of moderate leavers - like Casino, MaxPB, Richard_T, and myself - seem largely unbothered by it. Could it be a better deal? Yes. But we are where we are. We have done a poor negotiating job. We could have done better, specifically by not accepting sequencing, nor the Northern Ireland backstop. I also think we should have got our tone right at the start of the process.
But it's important to realise that this is not a "path to ever closer union". The EU and the Swiss have regularly changed their treaties, sometimes moving closer together, sometimes a little further apart. What is agreed now is not set in stone for ever more, it's the first step, and one that we may be in a better position to push back on in five years time, once we're reset our economy.
When we joined the EEC on 1 June 1973, we had a seven year transition period, as we slowly moved away from a tariff srtructure that encouraged trade with the Commonwealth to the CET. Exports to the Commonwealth were just 4% of GDP, compared to 15% or so for the EU today. Don't let great be the enemy of good, because a major recession is a much greater threat to Brexit than a deal where we are a little closer to the EU than you would like.
I do despair at the level of debate....old Fat head was banging on about chlorinated chicken as the reason why we can't Brexit / do a deal with America.
There are lots of reasons why there are lots of complications, but this nonsense on chlorinated chicken is just bollocks. When he was called on it, that we already have products that are chlorinated, but he said but the public are resistant to it....well you massive muppet, the public simply won't buy it will they.
We coat our kids in chlorine everytime they go swimming. Not sure why it's any worse for chicken?
NEWSFLASH: Man hospitalised after drinking four pints of shampoo. "I don't understand. I wash the kids with this every night."
For crying out loud. It doesn't mean we should wash chicken in it. We should be moving towards less food processing, not more. Well reared free-range chicken doesn't need chlorine on it. The reason they chlorinate chicken is because it is utter shite.
Not so much husbandry as slaughterhouse practice. There is a lot of faecal contamination because of the rate of slaughter lines in the USA. Coordination is to kill off surface contamination, so that microbiological tests are passed. It does not deal with deeper contamination.
One of the good things about May's proposal is that the EU will continue to regulate our food standards.
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
Geez are people still going on about US chicken?
We're continually told how great free trade in the EU is, but for some reason the same with the US is a terrible idea because of their (completely safe to eat) chicken.
The quality of food here in the US is far, far below that in the UK.
Pretty average I thought Chuka Umuna spoke immediately after the news came through and he was career destroying. Think Robin Cook. Corbyn's problem is that his history on Brexit is so mixed that all the 'killer' lines made him look like a hypocrite
If Chuka Umunna was Labour leader now he would almost certainly win the next general election, luckily for the Tories Corbyn is Labour leader, who turns off both centrists and many Remainers so if the Tories rally their hard Brexit base they could still yet get another term in power.
It needed Blair to finally beat the Tories last time, Kinnock the sequel was not enough, the same may be true for Corbyn the sequel
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
Have to say Gin, you've called all of her big mistakes correctly. I remember when it was me, you and SeanT telling the rest of PB that her dementia tax was a disaster for our election chances. I did think the petty nature of the taxi stuff would come back and bite her in the bum as well, but not this badly.
Well to be fair we haven't actually got any evidence that it was a contributing factor.
I do despair at the level of debate....old Fat head was banging on about chlorinated chicken as the reason why we can't Brexit / do a deal with America.
There are lots of reasons why there are lots of complications, but this nonsense on chlorinated chicken is just bollocks. When he was called on it, that we already have products that are chlorinated, but he said but the public are resistant to it....well you massive muppet, the public simply won't buy it will they.
We coat our kids in chlorine everytime they go swimming. Not sure why it's any worse for chicken?
NEWSFLASH: Man hospitalised after drinking four pints of shampoo. "I don't understand. I wash the kids with this every night."
For crying out loud. It doesn't mean we should wash chicken in it. We should be moving towards less food processing, not more. Well reared free-range chicken doesn't need chlorine on it. The reason they chlorinate chicken is because it is utter shite.
Not so much husbandry as slaughterhouse practice. There is a lot of faecal contamination because of the rate of slaughter lines in the USA. Coordination is to kill off surface contamination, so that microbiological tests are passed. It does not deal with deeper contamination.
One of the good things about May's proposal is that the EU will continue to regulate our food standards.
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
we allow lower standards in from Poland, Italy the Netherlandswhy arbitrarily pick on the yanks
Might be an error, but I've redded out Mayxit 2018 (For a loss of £40). Also laid Corbyn to zero for next PM - he's still 6.6 to lay in that market - surely surely May will go before the next GE now.
6.6 is too short for Corbyn but there is a scenario where the DUP withdraw confidence from the Tories and, hence, the government loses a Commons VoNC, leading to Corbyn being invited to the Palace. Also the risk of defections, though I think that low. I'd say Corbyn's odds should be around low teens at the moment.
Reaminers love Theresa's Chequers deal. Tells you exactly why Leavers (who won the referendum and with who May owe's her job to) are currently pulling the plug on her government.
I think that hardcore Remainers like williamglenn and Scott_P like it because they think it will result in the fall of the government, and the end of Brexit. I think hardcore Leavers hate it, because it leaves us in close orbit around the EU.
But a lot of moderate leavers - like Casino, MaxPB, Richard_T, and myself - seem largely unbothered by it. Could it be a better deal? Yes. But we are where we are. We have done a poor negotiating job. We could have done better, specifically by not accepting sequencing, nor the Northern Ireland backstop. I also think we should have got our tone right at the start of the process.
But it's important to realise that this is not a "path to ever closer union". The EU and the Swiss have regularly changed their treaties, sometimes moving closer together, sometimes a little further apart. What is agreed now is not set in stone for ever more, it's the first step, and one that we may be in a better position to push back on in five years time, once we're reset our economy.
When we joined the EEC on 1 June 1973, we had a seven year transition period, as we slowly moved away from a tariff srtructure that encouraged trade with the Commonwealth to the CET. Exports to the Commonwealth were just 4% of GDP, compared to 15% or so for the EU today. Don't let great be the enemy of good, because a major recession is a much greater threat to Brexit than a deal where we are a little closer to the EU than you would like.
Reaminers love Theresa's Chequers deal. Tells you exactly why Leavers (who won the referendum and with who May owe's her job to) are currently pulling the plug on her government.
I think that hardcore Remainers like williamglenn and Scott_P like it because they think it will result in the fall of the government, and the end of Brexit. I think hardcore Leavers hate it, because it leaves us in close orbit around the EU.
But a lot of moderate leavers - like Casino, MaxPB, Richard_T, and myself - seem largely unbothered by it. Could it be a better deal? Yes. But we are where we are. We have done a poor negotiating job. We could have done better, specifically by not accepting sequencing, nor the Northern Ireland backstop. I also think we should have got our tone right at the start of the process.
But it's important to realise that this is not a "path to ever closer union". The EU and the Swiss have regularly changed their treaties, sometimes moving closer together, sometimes a little further apart. What is agreed now is not set in stone for ever more, it's the first step, and one that we may be in a better position to push back on in five years time, once we're reset our economy.
When we joined the EEC on 1 June 1973, we had a seven year transition period, as we slowly moved away from a tariff srtructure that encouraged trade with the Commonwealth to the CET. Exports to the Commonwealth were just 4% of GDP, compared to 15% or so for the EU today. Don't let great be the enemy of good, because a major recession is a much greater threat to Brexit than a deal where we are a little closer to the EU than you would like.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
Question - with Her Majesty's Government tearing itself apart and potentially removing the PM in the next day or two, what advise do you give the President if you are a senior White House staffer about whether to come on Thursday?
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
Yes, it's generally-accepted that US standards for chicken production have much lower minimum animal welfare (though some companies are improving) with intense overcrowding. The chlorination and high use of antibiotics are about fighting the diseases that arise from close-packing the birds. Neither chlorine nor antibiotics do you any harm in themselves, but they mask real problems.
British standards are better than some European countries and worse than others - generally speaking, Sweden and Netherlands come top, but certainly Britain is generally better than, say, Italy.
I do despair at the level of debate....old Fat head was banging on about chlorinated chicken as the reason why we can't Brexit / do a deal with America.
There are lots of reasons why there are lots of complications, but this nonsense on chlorinated chicken is just bollocks. When he was called on it, that we already have products that are chlorinated, but he said but the public are resistant to it....well you massive muppet, the public simply won't buy it will they.
We coat our kids in chlorine everytime they go swimming. Not sure why it's any worse for chicken?
NEWSFLASH: Man hospitalised after drinking four pints of shampoo. "I don't understand. I wash the kids with this every night."
For crying out loud. It doesn't mean we should wash chicken in it. We should be moving towards less food processing, not more. Well reared free-range chicken doesn't need chlorine on it. The reason they chlorinate chicken is because it is utter shite.
Not so much husbandry as slaughterhouse practice. There is a lot of faecal contamination because of the rate of slaughter lines in the USA. Coordination is to kill off surface contamination, so that microbiological tests are passed. It does not deal with deeper contamination.
One of the good things about May's proposal is that the EU will continue to regulate our food standards.
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
we allow lower standards in from Poland, Italy the Netherlandswhy arbitrarily pick on the yanks
Question - with Her Majesty's Government tearing itself apart and potentially removing the PM in the next day or two, what advise do you give the President if you are a senior White House staffer about whether to come on Thursday?
That is one advantage of being a monarchy. The royals can do all the gladhanding while the politicians keep fighting each other.
I guess she has to fight, however, the plotters will all be sending YouTube videos of her dodging the debates, the damning articles about the dementia tax and the video of Dimblebot revealing the exit poll result at 10pm. That's all they really need to bring her down. Brexit is a side show compared to her inability to win an election and her hubris in throwing away a working majority.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
Much as I know you're a hardcore leaver and so would wish it to be so, I think you're right.
Actually I could probably live with Theresa's deal if that was the end point - But her starting position is basically at the point where I'd say no more.
I do despair at the level of debate....old Fat head was banging on about chlorinated chicken as the reason why we can't Brexit / do a deal with America.
There are lots of reasons why there are lots of complications, but this nonsense on chlorinated chicken is just bollocks. When he was called on it, that we already have products that are chlorinated, but he said but the public are resistant to it....well you massive muppet, the public simply won't buy it will they.
We coat our kids in chlorine everytime they go swimming. Not sure why it's any worse for chicken?
NEWSFLASH: Man hospitalised after drinking four pints of shampoo. "I don't understand. I wash the kids with this every night."
For crying out loud. It doesn't mean we should wash chicken in it. We should be moving towards less food processing, not more. Well reared free-range chicken doesn't need chlorine on it. The reason they chlorinate chicken is because it is utter shite.
Not so much husbandry as slaughterhouse practice. There is a lot of faecal contamination because of the rate of slaughter lines in the USA. Coordination is to kill off surface contamination, so that microbiological tests are passed. It does not deal with deeper contamination.
One of the good things about May's proposal is that the EU will continue to regulate our food standards.
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
Geez are people still going on about US chicken?
We're continually told how great free trade in the EU is, but for some reason the same with the US is a terrible idea because of their (completely safe to eat) chicken.
That's not the reason.
The price for a UK-US FTA is unfettered access to the UK for US agricultural products. Because UK meat requires significantly higher levels of animal welfare than the US, its cost of production is much, much higher. British farmers cannot both produce under current standards, and compete with US produce.
We can lower animal welfare standards to allow UK farmers to compete, or we can choose not to have an FTA with the US. What we cannot do is have a situation where we hobble our farmers and drive them out of business.
I do despair at the level of debate....old Fat head was banging on about chlorinated chicken as the reason why we can't Brexit / do a deal with America.
There are lots of reasons why there are lots of complications, but this nonsense on chlorinated chicken is just bollocks. When he was called on it, that we already have products that are chlorinated, but he said but the public are resistant to it....well you massive muppet, the public simply won't buy it will they.
We coat our kids in chlorine everytime they go swimming. Not sure why it's any worse for chicken?
NEWSFLASH: Man hospitalised after drinking four pints of shampoo. "I don't understand. I wash the kids with this every night."
For crying out loud. It doesn't mean we should wash chicken in it. We should be moving towards less food processing, not more. Well reared free-range chicken doesn't need chlorine on it. The reason they chlorinate chicken is because it is utter shite.
Not so much husbandry as slaughterhouse practice. There is a lot of faecal contamination because of the rate of slaughter lines in the USA. Coordination is to kill off surface contamination, so that microbiological tests are passed. It does not deal with deeper contamination.
One of the good things about May's proposal is that the EU will continue to regulate our food standards.
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
we allow lower standards in from Poland, Italy the Netherlandswhy arbitrarily pick on the yanks
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
And probably will not be able to rely on votes from across the floor as May has.
I do despair at the level of debate....old Fat head was banging on about chlorinated chicken as the reason why we can't Brexit / do a deal with America.
There are lots of reasons why there are lots of complications, but this nonsense on chlorinated chicken is just bollocks. When he was called on it, that we already have products that are chlorinated, but he said but the public are resistant to it....well you massive muppet, the public simply won't buy it will they.
We coat our kids in chlorine everytime they go swimming. Not sure why it's any worse for chicken?
NEWSFLASH: Man hospitalised after drinking four pints of shampoo. "I don't understand. I wash the kids with this every night."
For crying out loud. It doesn't mean we should wash chicken in it. We should be moving towards less food processing, not more. Well reared free-range chicken doesn't need chlorine on it. The reason they chlorinate chicken is because it is utter shite.
Not so much husbandry as slaughterhouse practice. There is a lot of faecal contamination because of the rate of slaughter lines in the USA. Coordination is to kill off surface contamination, so that microbiological tests are passed. It does not deal with deeper contamination.
One of the good things about May's proposal is that the EU will continue to regulate our food standards.
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
I agree.
But you seem to believe that the UK, which has consistently fought for higher standards in Europe, will suddenly lower them for the US.
(I hope they don't. And I would happily vote against any government minister who did so. But I want to be able to vote against them rather than have things decided in some unaccountable committee in a smoke-filled room in Mitteleuropa)
Reaminers love Theresa's Chequers deal. Tells you exactly why Leavers (who won the referendum and with who May owe's her job to) are currently pulling the plug on her government.
I think that hardcore Remainers like williamglenn and Scott_P like it because they think it will result in the fall of the government, and the end of Brexit. I think hardcore Leavers hate it, because it leaves us in close orbit around the EU.
But a lot of moderate leavers - like Casino, MaxPB, Richard_T, and myself - seem largely unbothered by it. Could it be a better deal? Yes. But we are where we are. We have done a poor negotiating job. We could have done better, specifically by not accepting sequencing, nor the Northern Ireland backstop. I also think we should have got our tone right at the start of the process.
But it's important to realise that this is not a "path to ever closer union". The EU and the Swiss have regularly changed their treaties, sometimes moving closer together, sometimes a little further apart. What is agreed now is not set in stone for ever more, it's the first step, and one that we may be in a better position to push back on in five years time, once we're reset our economy.
When we joined the EEC on 1 June 1973, we had a seven year transition period, as we slowly moved away from a tariff srtructure that encouraged trade with the Commonwealth to the CET. Exports to the Commonwealth were just 4% of GDP, compared to 15% or so for the EU today. Don't let great be the enemy of good, because a major recession is a much greater threat to Brexit than a deal where we are a little closer to the EU than you would like.
yup
Brexit is a process not an event
in 5 years all the main players will have changed and the needs of both parties will be different
who knows maybe our leading PPE course might have produced somebody who can do sums and understands what negotiation entails
I do despair at the level of debate....old Fat head was banging on about chlorinated chicken as the reason why we can't Brexit / do a deal with America.
There are lots of reasons why there are lots of complications, but this nonsense on chlorinated chicken is just bollocks. When he was called on it, that we already have products that are chlorinated, but he said but the public are resistant to it....well you massive muppet, the public simply won't buy it will they.
We coat our kids in chlorine everytime they go swimming. Not sure why it's any worse for chicken?
NEWSFLASH: Man hospitalised after drinking four pints of shampoo. "I don't understand. I wash the kids with this every night."
For crying out loud. It doesn't mean we should wash chicken in it. We should be moving towards less food processing, not more. Well reared free-range chicken doesn't need chlorine on it. The reason they chlorinate chicken is because it is utter shite.
Not so much husbandry as slaughterhouse practice. There is a lot of faecal contamination because of the rate of slaughter lines in the USA. Coordination is to kill off surface contamination, so that microbiological tests are passed. It does not deal with deeper contamination.
One of the good things about May's proposal is that the EU will continue to regulate our food standards.
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
we allow lower standards in from Poland, Italy the Netherlandswhy arbitrarily pick on the yanks
food hygiene seems to be a problem in both the EU and the USA - so this tit-for-tat point scoring seems a bit pointless to me
Reaminers love Theresa's Chequers deal. Tells you exactly why Leavers (who won the referendum and with who May owe's her job to) are currently pulling the plug on her government.
I think that hardcore Remainers like williamglenn and Scott_P like it because they think it will result in the fall of the government, and the end of Brexit. I think hardcore Leavers hate it, because it leaves us in close orbit around the EU.
But a lot of moderate leavers - like Casino, MaxPB, Richard_T, and myself - seem largely unbothered by it. Could it be a better deal? Yes. But we are where we are. We have done a poor negotiating job. We could have done better, specifically by not accepting sequencing, nor the Northern Ireland backstop. I also think we should have got our tone right at the start of the process.
But it's important to realise that this is not a "path to ever closer union". The EU and the Swiss have regularly changed their treaties, sometimes moving closer together, sometimes a little further apart. What is agreed now is not set in stone for ever more, it's the first step, and one that we may be in a better position to push back on in five years time, once we're reset our economy.
When we joined the EEC on 1 June 1973, we had a seven year transition period, as we slowly moved away from a tariff srtructure that encouraged trade with the Commonwealth to the CET. Exports to the Commonwealth were just 4% of GDP, compared to 15% or so for the EU today. Don't let great be the enemy of good, because a major recession is a much greater threat to Brexit than a deal where we are a little closer to the EU than you would like.
yup
Brexit is a process not an event
in 5 years all the main players will have changed and the needs of both parties will be different
who knows maybe our leading PPE course might have produced somebody who can do sums and understands what negotiation entails
Are all your political positions predicated on personal antipathy to some bloke or other on the other side of the argument?
He can hardly complain since he wasn't at a conference the UK was hosting with him as host - 'Where's Boris'?
Bone idle, irresponsible, self-serving.
Has there ever been a worse Foreign Secretary in the modern era?
None springs to mind. Ma Beckett may not have been inspiring but was a 'safe pair of hands' and Miliband may not have been as clever as he thought he was (India) - but none come remotely close - heck - even Fox would be an improvement.
100% agreed – even your latter point – which is faint praise indeed!
F1: conspiracy theorists receive blow as Hamilton acknowledges he was dumb to suggest Raikkonen deliberately hit him.
"Lewis Hamilton says he was "dumb" to imply Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen might have deliberately collided with him at the start of the British Grand Prix."
Tragic to see how the UK is lost in the post-referendum chaos. This used to be a nation providing leadership to the world. Now it can’t even provide leadership to itself."
Reaminers love Theresa's Chequers deal. Tells you exactly why Leavers (who won the referendum and with who May owe's her job to) are currently pulling the plug on her government.
I think that hardcore Remainers like williamglenn and Scott_P like it because they think it will result in the fall of the government, and the end of Brexit. I think hardcore Leavers hate it, because it leaves us in close orbit around the EU.
But a lot of moderate leavers - like Casino, MaxPB, Richard_T, and myself - seem largely unbothered by it. Could it be a better deal? Yes. But we are where we are. We have done a poor negotiating job. We could have done better, specifically by not accepting sequencing, nor the Northern Ireland backstop. I also think we should have got our tone right at the start of the process.
But it's important to realise that this is not a "path to ever closer union". The EU and the Swiss have regularly changed their treaties, sometimes moving closer together, sometimes a little further apart. What is agreed now is not set in stone for ever more, it's the first step, and one that we may be in a better position to push back on in five years time, once we're reset our economy.
When we joined the EEC on 1 June 1973, we had a seven year transition period, as we slowly moved away from a tariff srtructure that encouraged trade with the Commonwealth to the CET. Exports to the Commonwealth were just 4% of GDP, compared to 15% or so for the EU today. Don't let great be the enemy of good, because a major recession is a much greater threat to Brexit than a deal where we are a little closer to the EU than you would like.
yup
Brexit is a process not an event
in 5 years all the main players will have changed and the needs of both parties will be different
who knows maybe our leading PPE course might have produced somebody who can do sums and understands what negotiation entails
Are all your political positions predicated on personal antipathy to some bloke or other on the other side of the argument?
Mr. Maaaarsh, a good point. She gets a small advantage now, but it's petty and means she won't find out, probably, in future until the deed is done. Short term advantage for long term loss. The Way of May.
Trying to create a Hostile Environment for Leavers.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
And probably will not be able to rely on votes from across the floor as May has.
Precisely. As our great and much-lamented former Chancellor wisely said, the golden rule of politics is that you have to be able to count. Where on earth are the ultras going to find 320+ votes in the Commons for a Brexit harder than that Theressa May is aiming for?
I think Fox will leap ship next. Much as he's disliked by many here that is probably fatal for May.
The one resignation that would kill off May now would be Javid.....
Yes, one question that would kill her off is asking her to confirm whether or not EU citizens will get special treatment wrt to immigration. If she gives out a non-answer or confirms that they will I think Javid walks and brings the shitshow down with him.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
Have to say Gin, you've called all of her big mistakes correctly. I remember when it was me, you and SeanT telling the rest of PB that her dementia tax was a disaster for our election chances. I did think the petty nature of the taxi stuff would come back and bite her in the bum as well, but not this badly.
What seemed obvious to me is that if you have to threaten people with humiliation to get them to agree with you... Then something is wrong. Agreement should come from consensus, not from threats of humiliation.
It also meant that although Theresa announced she had "agreement" on Friday that so called "agreement" could not be taken at face value but at least some of those present would be keeping quiet so that they didn't get forced to do the "walk of shame" down the drive.
But that of course didn't stop them going away and resigning in the days afterwards....
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
Yes, it's generally-accepted that US standards for chicken production have much lower minimum animal welfare (though some companies are improving) with intense overcrowding. The chlorination and high use of antibiotics are about fighting the diseases that arise from close-packing the birds. Neither chlorine nor antibiotics do you any harm in themselves, but they mask real problems.
British standards are better than some European countries and worse than others - generally speaking, Sweden and Netherlands come top, but certainly Britain is generally better than, say, Italy.
The US is finally getting the message on antibiotics. The Veterinary Feed Directive has had a major impact
I think Fox will leap ship next. Much as he's disliked by many here that is probably fatal for May.
The one resignation that would kill off May now would be Javid.....
Agree. From watching the exchanges - and tenor - from the Conservative side, I now believe May will win the no confidence vote with a sufficient majority to continue. But Javid quitting would be the end.
I think Fox will leap ship next. Much as he's disliked by many here that is probably fatal for May.
The one resignation that would kill off May now would be Javid.....
Yes, one question that would kill her off is asking her to confirm whether or not EU citizens will get special treatment wrt to immigration. If she gives out a non-answer or confirms that they will I think Javid walks and brings the shitshow down with him.
I thought Javid has already said EU citizens will get special treatment if not automatic entry with a job.
I do despair at the level of debate....old Fat head was banging on about chlorinated chicken as the reason why we can't Brexit / do a deal with America.
There are lots of reasons why there are lots of complications, but this nonsense on chlorinated chicken is just bollocks. When he was called on it, that we already have products that are chlorinated, but he said but the public are resistant to it....well you massive muppet, the public simply won't buy it will they.
We coat our kids in chlorine everytime they go swimming. Not sure why it's any worse for chicken?
NEWSFLASH: Man hospitalised after drinking four pints of shampoo. "I don't understand. I wash the kids with this every night."
For crying out loud. It doesn't mean we should wash chicken in it. We should be moving towards less food processing, not more. Well reared free-range chicken doesn't need chlorine on it. The reason they chlorinate chicken is because it is utter shite.
Not so much husbandry as slaughterhouse practice. There is a lot of faecal contamination because of the rate of slaughter lines in the USA. Coordination is to kill off surface contamination, so that microbiological tests are passed. It does not deal with deeper contamination.
One of the good things about May's proposal is that the EU will continue to regulate our food standards.
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
we allow lower standards in from Poland, Italy the Netherlandswhy arbitrarily pick on the yanks
Because theirs are lower still.
based on what evidence ?
you don't have millions of yanks dying from food poisoning any more than you do millions of Europeans . When you go to the states are you saying you don't eat ?
or should we stop eating UK food if Sweden proves to have higher standards ?
More seems to have happened in the last 4 years in British politics than the previous 25 years.
The previous 22 Years, I would agree with, but Thatcher going, sterling leaving the ERM, and Major/conservatives wining a 4th term, between them are comparable ish.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
And probably will not be able to rely on votes from across the floor as May has.
Precisely. As our great and much-lamented former Chancellor wisely said, the golden rule of politics is that you have to be able to count. Where on earth are the ultras going to find 320+ votes in the Commons for a Brexit harder than that Theressa May is aiming for?
The Ultras don't need a H of C vote.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
Politics got cut through in the office for the first time thanks to the antics of Davis and Johnson. Conclusions: Brexit is a total shitshow. People are bored by it and angry at the sheer waste of it all. Surprising support for Theresa May who is seen as the captain that stays in the wheelhouse as the ship goes down. Unlike rats Johnson, Davis and Gove who actually sunk the ship before abandoning it. Gove is seen as particularly slippery.
I think Fox will leap ship next. Much as he's disliked by many here that is probably fatal for May.
The one resignation that would kill off May now would be Javid.....
Agree. From watching the exchanges - and tenor - from the Conservative side, I now believe May will win the no confidence vote with a sufficient majority to continue. But Javid quitting would be the end.
He's also been suspiciously quiet other than to voice his support of Davis and Boris. I think he knows he's about to get stitched up on EU citizen rights because May can't be trusted to keep her word. If Gove were smart he'd be talking to Javid right now about bringing May down with a double resignation just before the first editions. They both broadly favour the deal and could retain almost all of it as a ticket with a remainer/leaver in 10/11.
It's what I would be thinking in Gove's place anyway, it gets him into a key role in the government, he backs the winner and he gets to shape Brexit as he wants it.
Tragic to see how the UK is lost in the post-referendum chaos. This used to be a nation providing leadership to the world. Now it can’t even provide leadership to itself."
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
'A deal other than WTO terms' doesn't exist. This is the point I keep repeating. There's a massive confusion between leaving with literally no deal - which is unthinkable, since the economy and much else besides would just stop - and agreeing a deal whereby we have an orderly transition to WTO terms. But the latter still requires a deal with the EU.
The Conservative Party: more scheming than Julius Caeser and Macbeth combined, more blood than Titus Andronicus, more madness than King Lear, more big beasts exiting stage left than a Winter's Tale
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe. The disloyal cannot expect loyalty. And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
It works both ways. May should have treated them with more respect - see Chequers for example: phones confiscated, taxis for resignees, papers shared with Berlin before the cabinet etc.
They are all an absolute disgrace and a good example only of how not to behave.
Comments
Priti Patel is the new Foreign Secretary.
We need someone who doesn't play poker with all their cards face up.
https://twitter.com/timoncheese/status/1016333654832943105
The hardcore have been plotting and scheming against her since she became PM.
https://twitter.com/BarryGardiner/status/1016343857565454337
But a lot of moderate leavers - like Casino, MaxPB, Richard_T, and myself - seem largely unbothered by it. Could it be a better deal? Yes. But we are where we are. We have done a poor negotiating job. We could have done better, specifically by not accepting sequencing, nor the Northern Ireland backstop. I also think we should have got our tone right at the start of the process.
But it's important to realise that this is not a "path to ever closer union". The EU and the Swiss have regularly changed their treaties, sometimes moving closer together, sometimes a little further apart. What is agreed now is not set in stone for ever more, it's the first step, and one that we may be in a better position to push back on in five years time, once we're reset our economy.
When we joined the EEC on 1 June 1973, we had a seven year transition period, as we slowly moved away from a tariff srtructure that encouraged trade with the Commonwealth to the CET. Exports to the Commonwealth were just 4% of GDP, compared to 15% or so for the EU today. Don't let great be the enemy of good, because a major recession is a much greater threat to Brexit than a deal where we are a little closer to the EU than you would like.
It needed Blair to finally beat the Tories last time, Kinnock the sequel was not enough, the same may be true for Corbyn the sequel
Only a casual tennis watcher, but don't believe that for a moment.
Right?
Right?
(Nervously bites fingers.)
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1016344708510048256
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
British standards are better than some European countries and worse than others - generally speaking, Sweden and Netherlands come top, but certainly Britain is generally better than, say, Italy.
Actually I could probably live with Theresa's deal if that was the end point - But her starting position is basically at the point where I'd say no more.
I know she'll give even more to the EU from here.
The price for a UK-US FTA is unfettered access to the UK for US agricultural products. Because UK meat requires significantly higher levels of animal welfare than the US, its cost of production is much, much higher. British farmers cannot both produce under current standards, and compete with US produce.
We can lower animal welfare standards to allow UK farmers to compete, or we can choose not to have an FTA with the US. What we cannot do is have a situation where we hobble our farmers and drive them out of business.
But you seem to believe that the UK, which has consistently fought for higher standards in Europe, will suddenly lower them for the US.
(I hope they don't. And I would happily vote against any government minister who did so. But I want to be able to vote against them rather than have things decided in some unaccountable committee in a smoke-filled room in Mitteleuropa)
Brexit is a process not an event
in 5 years all the main players will have changed and the needs of both parties will be different
who knows maybe our leading PPE course might have produced somebody who can do sums and understands what negotiation entails
In the last week,
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/09/more-than-200-hit-by-parasite-from-del-monte-vegetables.html?__source=twitter|main
https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/09/supermarket-frozen-veg-recalled-nine-deaths-listeria-7693886/
"Lewis Hamilton says he was "dumb" to imply Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen might have deliberately collided with him at the start of the British Grand Prix."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/44766343
"Carl Bildt
Verified account @carlbildt
Tragic to see how the UK is lost in the post-referendum chaos. This used to be a nation providing leadership to the world. Now it can’t even provide leadership to itself."
Trying to create a Hostile Environment for Leavers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRlMjotV6qg
It also meant that although Theresa announced she had "agreement" on Friday that so called "agreement" could not be taken at face value but at least some of those present would be keeping quiet so that they didn't get forced to do the "walk of shame" down the drive.
But that of course didn't stop them going away and resigning in the days afterwards....
Edited extra bit: Mr. Gin, Richard II had a similar strategy. It worked well, until he was overthrown.
Perhaps Mrs May's spokesman should have added this.
you don't have millions of yanks dying from food poisoning any more than you do millions of Europeans . When you go to the states are you saying you don't eat ?
or should we stop eating UK food if Sweden proves to have higher standards ?
There's nothing on any of the news / social media sites?
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
It's what I would be thinking in Gove's place anyway, it gets him into a key role in the government, he backs the winner and he gets to shape Brexit as he wants it.
That's her future direction. National interest, national interest, national interest .........
...and as many laughs as King John.