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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The sick rose. The disease in the English hard right and the f

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,701
    rpjs said:

    Congrats SO. I presume the offer to join the invite only PB vip club will be following shortly.

    In all seriousness, an inspiration to some of us small time entrepreneurs.

    The PB VIP Club has a buy in of £100,000 and an annual membership fee of £25,000.

    Both can be waived if you denounce pineapple on pizza as the worst thing the Black Death.
    I qualify then! But what about anchovies? (Mmmmm, anchovies on pizza!)
    I adore anchovies.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    currystar said:

    MaxPB said:

    currystar said:

    Brexiteers are now putting their hopes in a rejection from Barnier.
    https://twitter.com/asabenn/status/1014897755364450304

    I think "No Deal" is a certainty now as the EU will not give any ground at all. I think May knows this and will say she has tried to be as reasonable as possible with the EU but they will not budge hence the No Deal. Due to this parliament will approve it.
    There's no chance of no deal Brexit without a minimum two year extension of A50.
    That could happen, both sides could agree that there is no chance of any agreement hence a no deal situation and the two years will give enough time to prepare for it.
    Seems like neither the EU or the no 10 machine have learned anything from Cameron's attempt to turn the oil tanker in March 2016.

    A piffling thin offering will get two fingers from the Uk.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    Roger said:

    x

    Jonathan said:

    Recently sat opposite this delightful looking old gent on the train. Must have been late 80s-90yrs. Started to read facist/far-right books/mags from his nap sack.

    There does seem to be a bubbling undercurrent of far-right sentiment in the UK.

    And I'm sure the old dude had only become racist since Brexit. Shit, what have we done.
    Brexit has empowered him and millions like him to 'come out'
    There has always been a Far Right/Radical Right in the UK. Goes back until at least the end of the 19th century and worries about the Empire.
  • The_Mule_The_Mule_ Posts: 30
    Title is "The disease in the English hard right."

    Examples given include. 'On 16 June 2016, Thomas Mair fired a gun at Jo Cox MP, shouting “Britain first, this is for Britain. Britain will always come first. We are British independence. Make Britain independent.” He then attacked her with a knife, shot at her again and again shouted “Britain first”.'

    Then 'Those who love to drape themselves in the Union Jack.'

    If you are going to slag a group of people off at least pick the right examples. English nationalism is not British (the opposite in fact) and English nationalists would not be draped in the Union Flag.

    So the title has no relation to the body of the article. I believe the phrase is 'vapid bilge.'
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,869

    rpjs said:

    Congrats SO. I presume the offer to join the invite only PB vip club will be following shortly.

    In all seriousness, an inspiration to some of us small time entrepreneurs.

    The PB VIP Club has a buy in of £100,000 and an annual membership fee of £25,000.

    Both can be waived if you denounce pineapple on pizza as the worst thing the Black Death.
    I qualify then! But what about anchovies? (Mmmmm, anchovies on pizza!)
    I adore anchovies.
    Anchovies, capers, buffalo mozzarella. The best combination of toppings on a pizza.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mr. Sandpit, to be fair, UK houses don't generally have aircon. I do appreciate and acknowledge, however, that your place (Abu Dhabi?) is a smidgen warmer/more humid than Yorkshire.

    Edited extra bit: incidentally, I've put a little on Hartley to not be classified at 2.75. He's got 4/9 DNFs so far. Mild value.

    Dubai, 60 miles away. We are the ones who don’t like the Flintstones (but Abu Dhabi dooo!).

    45°C and 70% here today, yes my flat and car are air conditioned but some days they struggle...

    Okay, I’ll follow you in for half a stake on Hartley if I can find a way of placing the bet.

    How much leccy does all the air-con use over there ?
    Month of June was 1,487kWh for about £85. In a two year old 1 bed apartment of about 800 sq ft with triple glazed windows.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Are there any council houses left to buy?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Are there any council houses left to buy?
    You can now right to buy Housing Association houses in an act of screaming vandalism by the government.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,869
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Are there any council houses left to buy?
    You can now right to buy Housing Association houses in an act of screaming vandalism by the government.
    It's a great policy which increases home ownership.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,869
    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    I think that would be the point of such a policy, gut the rental sector.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    Of course they would. People need the money.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    What time is the David Davis resignation? I wouldn't want to miss it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    What would be your criteria for duration before eligibility and who would set the price ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,222
    TGOHF said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    What would be your criteria for duration before eligibility and who would set the price ?
    Wouldn't he just copy whatever the councils & housing assocs do at the moment ?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    What time is the David Davis resignation? I wouldn't want to miss it.

    David Davis, the Charlie Falconer pour nos jours.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    That would be one way to decimate the rented sector supply, and make renting impossibly expensive for anyone who didn’t want to or couldn’t afford to buy. Remember that the minute prices start appreciably falling you won’t be able to get a mortgage for more than about 50% loan to value.

    Worryingly, such abrogation of property rights is exactly the sort of crap that one might imagine Corbyn and McDonnell thinking is a good idea.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,163
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/ProfChalmers/status/1014906960876105730

    Rather than Chris grayling, how about Gareth southgate and Steve Holland.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    What would be your criteria for duration before eligibility and who would set the price ?
    Wouldn't he just copy whatever the councils & housing assocs do at the moment ?
    That would probably boost home ownership by forcing every private landlord to exit the market.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635
    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    I think that would be the point of such a policy, gut the rental sector.
    Where would you expect the 22 year old graduate who just got a job in London to live?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    A technocrat government with Lord Gareth Southgate in charge would be popular.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    I think that would be the point of such a policy, gut the rental sector.
    If the only choice is buy your own home, or rent socially, where do you find accommodation if you're a student, or a worker on a short term contract?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    Of course they would. People need the money.
    People won't let out a property if they're going to lose it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,869
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    I think that would be the point of such a policy, gut the rental sector.
    Where would you expect the 22 year old graduate who just got a job in London to live?
    I didn't say it was a good idea. I'm pretty happy to see the bottom fall out of private rentals, however, introducing RTB in the sector would be too far, even for me.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Jonathan said:

    A technocrat government with Lord Gareth Southgate in charge would be popular.

    I'm sure he could fly back from Russia, fix Brexit and fly back in time for the next match!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,815
    Mr. Eagles, potens refers to power. Virtu works better for courage/manliness.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    This is exciting. It’s like the July Days in Petrograd in July 1917, except no-one’s getting hurt!

    Not long until October...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,163

    Jonathan said:

    A technocrat government with Lord Gareth Southgate in charge would be popular.

    I'm sure he could fly back from Russia, fix Brexit and fly back in time for the next match!
    He might be free by Saturday afternoon...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,778
    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    That would be one way to decimate the rented sector supply, and make renting impossibly expensive for anyone who didn’t want to or couldn’t afford to buy. Remember that the minute prices start appreciably falling you won’t be able to get a mortgage for more than about 50% loan to value.

    Worryingly, such abrogation of property rights is exactly the sort of crap that one might imagine Corbyn and McDonnell thinking is a good idea.
    Wouldn't this breach the ECHR Right to Property?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,222
    Rules for the councils & housing associations, and buy to let merchants (And their tenants) should be identical.

    Geese, ganders and all that.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    I think that would be the point of such a policy, gut the rental sector.
    Where would you expect the 22 year old graduate who just got a job in London to live?

    Suspect an Airbnb model where you have no right to buy would evolve.

    Lower cost , lower rights etc .

    Law of unintended consequences which always appears when you try and distort markets.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects
    8m8 minutes ago

    France, Kantar poll:

    President Macron Approval Rating

    Approve: 32% (-6)
    Disapprove: 64% (+7)

    Field work: 28/06/18 – 2/07/18
    Sample size: 923"
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,394
    Pulpstar said:

    Rules for the councils & housing associations, and buy to let merchants (And their tenants) should be identical.

    Geese, ganders and all that.

    The latter would just disappear. Which would be bad news for anyone who wanted to work or study any distance from their home.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Scott_P said:

    Roger said:

    Well done Alastair. One of your best. Cameron has unleashed the racists and the nutters and the ones you mention are just the tip of the iceberg

    tbf, Boris and Gove gave them license, not Cameron
    Bollocks,Blair and brown followed by Cameron are to blame inwhich millions of people let into the country in a short space of time caused the disquiet .

    The real nutters are the ones who thought it was a good idea and backed it knowing that it wouldn't affect you where you live.

    Bastards.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635
    Way off topic, but to answer @AlastairMeeks’ challenge from earlier, a report on property prices in Ukraine.
    https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Ukraine/Price-History
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565
    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    Of course they would. People need the money.
    People won't let out a property if they're going to lose it.
    Quite right, this is a terrible idea. Unfortunately it's just as terrible for council housing, for much the same reasons. Maybe comparing it to private landlords being forced to sell - at a discount - might be a way to push back against RTB?
  • I spoke separately with a major media buyer and a close friend of Georgie Greig. They both said the same thing. The Mail will not shift to a Remain view or even shift much away from a Brexit view because it would decimate the readership and crash both the circulation and advertising revenues. The most that will happen is a scaling down of the tone.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,222
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Rules for the councils & housing associations, and buy to let merchants (And their tenants) should be identical.

    Geese, ganders and all that.

    The latter would just disappear. Which would be bad news for anyone who wanted to work or study any distance from their home.
    Just to be clear, I'd abolish the 'right to buy' (At a discount), but keep it at full market value.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    edited July 2018
    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    Of course they would. People need the money.
    People won't let out a property if they're going to lose it.
    People who rent are not going to magically conjur up thousands. If they did, they wouldn't be renting in the first place.

    And if they did, it's not as if the owner would be losing money. They would have to pay the going rate.

    If the owner wanted to speculate or get a steady income, they can invest in commercial property or other assets.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    It does look like Theresa May is going to engineer what I thought quite impossible - that the implementation of the referendum result will be so fucking awful, it will allow the debate for the terms of our withdrawing from the EU to give Farage a soapbox to continue with Brexit Redux.

    Topple her. Or she will lose the Tories 200 seats at the next election.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,754

    I spoke separately with a major media buyer and a close friend of Georgie Greig. They both said the same thing. The Mail will not shift to a Remain view or even shift much away from a Brexit view because it would decimate the readership and crash both the circulation and advertising revenues. The most that will happen is a scaling down of the tone.
    I doubt their average reader is even aware of the different editorial lines in the Mail and MoS and wouldn’t bat an eyelid at seeing an anti-Brexit line on a daily basis.
  • tpfkar said:

    tpfkar said:

    Sounds like we are about to find out once and for all how serious the hard Brexit right are in the Tories. They've run out of threats and have to deliver on them or find some weasel words for living with the latest 'cup of sick.'

    Not a lot of sympathy from me - they've had 2 years to come up with anything vaguely workable and got nowhere close. So the only workable option may well be much softer than promised. Not sure i would be putting any money on the likes of Esther McVey being next out of cabinet. Surely one leadership contender in these circumstances (Liam Fox?) will think their best chance is to stand down, accuse of betrayal and spend the next x years saying how much better it would have been done their way.

    That doesn't work. If a minister resigns now on a matter of principle, that puts immense pressure on the other Leave ministers to do likewise, unless the resignation prompts an abrupt and huge U-turn from May. If other ministers resign, that puts immense pressure on MPs to place and then vote through a VoNC - in which case the resigning ministers will presumable get a chance to do it 'their way' (or more of a chance anyway).
    You have more confidence in the spines of Brexit supporting ministers than I do! You're absolutely right that a resignation could set off a chain reaction and unpredictable events - but I could equally see the others making the argument that the likes of Michael Gove (as JonathanD says, the grown up in this group) and Andrew Percy are making, that this is the only way of getting out of the EEA, and they'll live with something that's much less than they wanted.
    The reason why I think David is right is that, if the reports are correct, being the first Cabinet minister to resign over this is a great opportunity for those who want the leadership to put themselves ahead of the pack. I agree that it is uncertain any of Gove, Davis, Fox or Johnson would resign. But if they didn't, I think someone else in the Cabinet would knowing it would probably spark a leadership content. It is why I have put bets on one of Penny Mourdant, Esther McVey and Liz Truss to be the next out of the Cabinet.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,757
    Scott_P said:
    It will certainly be a close run thing between Chequers and the QF, for red cards, playacting, badgering the referee and foul language.

    F*** business as Suarez might say...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504

    I spoke separately with a major media buyer and a close friend of Georgie Greig. They both said the same thing. The Mail will not shift to a Remain view or even shift much away from a Brexit view because it would decimate the readership and crash both the circulation and advertising revenues. The most that will happen is a scaling down of the tone.
    Scaling down the tone would help to reduce the temperature. No more Traitors and Enemies of the People.
    However, where would the readership go? The Express?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    I think that would be the point of such a policy, gut the rental sector.
    Where would you expect the 22 year old graduate who just got a job in London to live?
    They would rent a room in an owner-occupied property.

    Like they did in the old days.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635
    TGOHF said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    I think that would be the point of such a policy, gut the rental sector.
    Where would you expect the 22 year old graduate who just got a job in London to live?
    Suspect an Airbnb model where you have no right to buy would evolve.

    Lower cost , lower rights etc .

    Law of unintended consequences which always appears when you try and distort markets.
    It’s almost certainly what would happen in the larger cities, with rent paid weekly and you’re on a week’s notice to quit or eat a raise at the landlord’s discretion. No contracts or bills in your name and no way to establish yourself in the city - including to vote.

    It would create a middle class underclass in London, a city where demand for housing will always significantly exceed supply.
  • I spoke separately with a major media buyer and a close friend of Georgie Greig. They both said the same thing. The Mail will not shift to a Remain view or even shift much away from a Brexit view because it would decimate the readership and crash both the circulation and advertising revenues. The most that will happen is a scaling down of the tone.
    I doubt their average reader is even aware of the different editorial lines in the Mail and MoS and wouldn’t bat an eyelid at seeing an anti-Brexit line on a daily basis.
    Wrong. Very wrong. The Mail knows exactly what its readership will tolerate. The MoS gets away with its line because the paper the rest of the week is so anti-Brexit. If the two go Remain, the Mail management is very aware what will happen.

    Take a look at what happened to the Express readership post-supporting New Labour.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Scott_P said:

    Roger said:

    Well done Alastair. One of your best. Cameron has unleashed the racists and the nutters and the ones you mention are just the tip of the iceberg

    tbf, Boris and Gove gave them license, not Cameron
    Bollocks,Blair and brown followed by Cameron are to blame inwhich millions of people let into the country in a short space of time caused the disquiet .

    The real nutters are the ones who thought it was a good idea and backed it knowing that it wouldn't affect you where you live.

    Bastards.
    Spot on - the selfishness of the cossetted metro types put us in this spot. "Bring in the cheap serfs to clean my toilets cheaply - they won't live near me as they are priced out of it - ho ho ho".

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Rules for the councils & housing associations, and buy to let merchants (And their tenants) should be identical.

    Geese, ganders and all that.

    The latter would just disappear. Which would be bad news for anyone who wanted to work or study any distance from their home.
    How would they disappear? BTL landords are hardly going to leave empty, demolish or live in their BTL properties themselves. They could sell them of course...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,815
    Big choice to make on Friday, then.

    Will the media describe it as Vichy or Versailles? :p
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,900

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Rules for the councils & housing associations, and buy to let merchants (And their tenants) should be identical.

    Geese, ganders and all that.

    The latter would just disappear. Which would be bad news for anyone who wanted to work or study any distance from their home.
    How would they disappear? BTL landords are hardly going to leave empty, demolish or live in their BTL properties themselves. They could sell them of course...
    Did you hear about the home-owner who loved his sandwiches?

    He became a BLT landlord! :lol:
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,754

    I spoke separately with a major media buyer and a close friend of Georgie Greig. They both said the same thing. The Mail will not shift to a Remain view or even shift much away from a Brexit view because it would decimate the readership and crash both the circulation and advertising revenues. The most that will happen is a scaling down of the tone.
    I doubt their average reader is even aware of the different editorial lines in the Mail and MoS and wouldn’t bat an eyelid at seeing an anti-Brexit line on a daily basis.
    Wrong. Very wrong. The Mail knows exactly what its readership will tolerate. The MoS gets away with its line because the paper the rest of the week is so anti-Brexit. If the two go Remain, the Mail management is very aware what will happen.

    Take a look at what happened to the Express readership post-supporting New Labour.
    There is absolutely no comparison between being anti-Brexit and being pro-New Labour. It would be perfectly possible for the Mail to reframe the European debate in a way that fit the rest of its worldview and take its readers with it. That's what Brexiteers are most afraid of.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Roger said:

    Well done Alastair. One of your best. Cameron has unleashed the racists and the nutters and the ones you mention are just the tip of the iceberg

    tbf, Boris and Gove gave them license, not Cameron
    Bollocks,Blair and brown followed by Cameron are to blame inwhich millions of people let into the country in a short space of time caused the disquiet .

    The real nutters are the ones who thought it was a good idea and backed it knowing that it wouldn't affect you where you live.

    Bastards.
    Spot on - the selfishness of the cossetted metro types put us in this spot. "Bring in the cheap serfs to clean my toilets cheaply - they won't live near me as they are priced out of it - ho ho ho".

    Is the heat getting to you? Suggest a fan, a cool drink and a lie down in a darkened room.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    tpfkar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    Of course they would. People need the money.
    People won't let out a property if they're going to lose it.
    Quite right, this is a terrible idea. Unfortunately it's just as terrible for council housing, for much the same reasons. Maybe comparing it to private landlords being forced to sell - at a discount - might be a way to push back against RTB?
    I find it impressive the mental contortions people will go through to say RTB is great for council houses and HA stock but terrible for Private rentals.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The reason why I think David is right is that, if the reports are correct, being the first Cabinet minister to resign over this is a great opportunity for those who want the leadership to put themselves ahead of the pack. I agree that it is uncertain any of Gove, Davis, Fox or Johnson would resign. But if they didn't, I think someone else in the Cabinet would knowing it would probably spark a leadership content. It is why I have put bets on one of Penny Mourdant, Esther McVey and Liz Truss to be the next out of the Cabinet.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1014909960097095683
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Roger said:

    Well done Alastair. One of your best. Cameron has unleashed the racists and the nutters and the ones you mention are just the tip of the iceberg

    tbf, Boris and Gove gave them license, not Cameron
    Bollocks,Blair and brown followed by Cameron are to blame inwhich millions of people let into the country in a short space of time caused the disquiet .

    The real nutters are the ones who thought it was a good idea and backed it knowing that it wouldn't affect you where you live.

    Bastards.
    Spot on - the selfishness of the cossetted metro types put us in this spot. "Bring in the cheap serfs to clean my toilets cheaply - they won't live near me as they are priced out of it - ho ho ho".

    You’d be amazed to discover how many London residents don’t have someone to clean their toilets
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,815
    Mr. Alistair, you don't think there's a difference between public and private property?

    This reminds me a little of the occasional murmuring there is of giving cohabiting unmarried couples legal rights over property/possessions (which is deranged).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Rules for the councils & housing associations, and buy to let merchants (And their tenants) should be identical.

    Geese, ganders and all that.

    The latter would just disappear. Which would be bad news for anyone who wanted to work or study any distance from their home.
    How would they disappear? BTL landords are hardly going to leave empty, demolish or live in their BTL properties themselves. They could sell them of course...
    Yes, and all at the same time - which will make it more expensive for anyone who needs or wants to rent, and more difficult for anyone trying to save a deposit to buy.

    The mistaken assumption is that everyone currently renting is willing and able to buy. That’s not the case, especially so in London.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635
    Alistair said:

    tpfkar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    Of course they would. People need the money.
    People won't let out a property if they're going to lose it.
    Quite right, this is a terrible idea. Unfortunately it's just as terrible for council housing, for much the same reasons. Maybe comparing it to private landlords being forced to sell - at a discount - might be a way to push back against RTB?
    I find it impressive the mental contortions people will go through to say RTB is great for council houses and HA stock but terrible for Private rentals.
    There’s a massive difference between getting a good deal to buy your house from the government, and forcing an individual to sell their private property against their will.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    So we're building to some kind of climax. Why is this?

    Has the PM simply run out of road down which to kick the can? Has she finally got off the fence and is taking on the Brexit Bastards in the cabinet? Or something else?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,869
    I think you could make private sector RTB voluntary. That might work for a lot of people.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Rules for the councils & housing associations, and buy to let merchants (And their tenants) should be identical.

    Geese, ganders and all that.

    The latter would just disappear. Which would be bad news for anyone who wanted to work or study any distance from their home.
    How would they disappear? BTL landords are hardly going to leave empty, demolish or live in their BTL properties themselves. They could sell them of course...
    Yes, and all at the same time - which will make it more expensive for anyone who needs or wants to rent, and more difficult for anyone trying to save a deposit to buy.

    The mistaken assumption is that everyone currently renting is willing and able to buy. That’s not the case, especially so in London.
    They could only sell them "all at the same time" if there are buyers. It would be a fire sale with BLT landlords losing capital. Most would sit tight and suck it up.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677
    edited July 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    tpfkar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    Of course they would. People need the money.
    People won't let out a property if they're going to lose it.
    Quite right, this is a terrible idea. Unfortunately it's just as terrible for council housing, for much the same reasons. Maybe comparing it to private landlords being forced to sell - at a discount - might be a way to push back against RTB?
    I find it impressive the mental contortions people will go through to say RTB is great for council houses and HA stock but terrible for Private rentals.
    There’s a massive difference between getting a good deal to buy your house from the government, and forcing an individual to sell their private property against their will.
    That does not apply at all. No-one will be forced to do anything.

    If you sign a contract with a tenant, this will be a clause. You are perfectly within your right not to sign a contract.

    If you want to keep your property, don't let it out.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    I think that would be the point of such a policy, gut the rental sector.
    Where would you expect the 22 year old graduate who just got a job in London to live?
    I didn't say it was a good idea. I'm pretty happy to see the bottom fall out of private rentals, however, introducing RTB in the sector would be too far, even for me.
    Ha, we found the Conservative in you eventually! ;)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    MaxPB said:

    I think you could make private sector RTB voluntary. That might work for a lot of people.

    A right, but only if the landlord volunteers it ?!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635
    edited July 2018
    Scott_P said:
    They don’t have much choice in the matter, given that the EU is obstinately threatening to ground every plane with RR engines on 30th March next year.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,222
    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    tpfkar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    Of course they would. People need the money.
    People won't let out a property if they're going to lose it.
    Quite right, this is a terrible idea. Unfortunately it's just as terrible for council housing, for much the same reasons. Maybe comparing it to private landlords being forced to sell - at a discount - might be a way to push back against RTB?
    I find it impressive the mental contortions people will go through to say RTB is great for council houses and HA stock but terrible for Private rentals.
    There’s a massive difference between getting a good deal to buy your house from the government, and forcing an individual to sell their private property against their will.
    The Government is essentially 'all of us'. And a 'good deal' for the tenant is a poor deal for the council, long term we all end up paying for that through council tax etc.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,701
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    They don’t have much choice in the matter, given that the EU is obstinately threatening to ground every plane with RR engines on 30th March next year.
    Brexit means Brexit.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Scott_P said:

    The reason why I think David is right is that, if the reports are correct, being the first Cabinet minister to resign over this is a great opportunity for those who want the leadership to put themselves ahead of the pack. I agree that it is uncertain any of Gove, Davis, Fox or Johnson would resign. But if they didn't, I think someone else in the Cabinet would knowing it would probably spark a leadership content. It is why I have put bets on one of Penny Mourdant, Esther McVey and Liz Truss to be the next out of the Cabinet.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1014909960097095683
    How far we’ve fallen; from Hugh Dalton resigning as Chancellor in 1947 for telling a journalist 20 minutes before the budget speech about its contents, to the constant leaking of private information.

    Our administration these days is more Lada than Rolls-Royce.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,757

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Roger said:

    Well done Alastair. One of your best. Cameron has unleashed the racists and the nutters and the ones you mention are just the tip of the iceberg

    tbf, Boris and Gove gave them license, not Cameron
    Bollocks,Blair and brown followed by Cameron are to blame inwhich millions of people let into the country in a short space of time caused the disquiet .

    The real nutters are the ones who thought it was a good idea and backed it knowing that it wouldn't affect you where you live.

    Bastards.
    Spot on - the selfishness of the cossetted metro types put us in this spot. "Bring in the cheap serfs to clean my toilets cheaply - they won't live near me as they are priced out of it - ho ho ho".

    Is the heat getting to you? Suggest a fan, a cool drink and a lie down in a darkened room.
    Get the serfs to fan with the punkah!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,504
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Exactly so. I still find it hard to square seeing actual Tories espousing a policy that I associate with the far left. Let's hope they come back to their senses soon.

    image
    Points 3 and 4 look perfectly sensible to me.
    Right to buy should be extended to private renters or abolished entirely.
    Do you think anyone would let out property, if that were the case?
    I think that would be the point of such a policy, gut the rental sector.
    Where would you expect the 22 year old graduate who just got a job in London to live?
    I didn't say it was a good idea. I'm pretty happy to see the bottom fall out of private rentals, however, introducing RTB in the sector would be too far, even for me.
    Ha, we found the Conservative in you eventually! ;)
    You can get pills for that!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,677

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    They don’t have much choice in the matter, given that the EU is obstinately threatening to ground every plane with RR engines on 30th March next year.
    Brexit means Brexit.
    But what does that mean. Are we still on for a Red, White and Blue Brexit? She never specified whether that was the Tricoloure or the Union flag?

    My money is still on a Cheese and Onion Brexit.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,900

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    They don’t have much choice in the matter, given that the EU is obstinately threatening to ground every plane with RR engines on 30th March next year.
    Brexit means Brexit.
    Catch me if you can
    'Cos I'm the Brexit man
    And what you're looking at
    Is the master plan
    We ain't no xenophobes
    This ain't no football song
    Three lions on my chest
    I know we can't go wrong
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,869

    MaxPB said:

    I think you could make private sector RTB voluntary. That might work for a lot of people.

    A right, but only if the landlord volunteers it ?!
    Anything more would be state enforced theft of property.
  • Jonathan said:

    So we're building to some kind of climax. Why is this?

    Has the PM simply run out of road down which to kick the can? Has she finally got off the fence and is taking on the Brexit Bastards in the cabinet? Or something else?

    I think she hates making decisions. I think she believes this will p*** off the fewest people. Unfortunately it will definitely p*** off her core vote plus all the people who voted Leave.

    I always believed that our political parties were strong enough to see off the populists. If she does this there will be a new party on the patriotic centre right and god help us all because they will get the F*** You vote.

    What happens if the ERG say they will vote against the government on every motion while the PM remains in office?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    Jonathan said:

    So we're building to some kind of climax. Why is this?

    Has the PM simply run out of road down which to kick the can? Has she finally got off the fence and is taking on the Brexit Bastards in the cabinet? Or something else?

    History suggests "something else"...
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    It does look like Theresa May is going to engineer what I thought quite impossible - that the implementation of the referendum result will be so fucking awful, it will allow the debate for the terms of our withdrawing from the EU to give Farage a soapbox to continue with Brexit Redux.

    Topple her. Or she will lose the Tories 200 seats at the next election.

    Or preferably both...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,815
    Mr. Max, state-enforced theft of private property?

    Shh, or you'll have Corbyn adding it to his manifesto.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    What happens if the ERG say they will vote against the government on every motion while the PM remains in office?

    the government falls and they get Corbyn instead
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think you could make private sector RTB voluntary. That might work for a lot of people.

    A right, but only if the landlord volunteers it ?!
    Anything more would be state enforced theft of property.
    It's not a right if it's voluntary is it? And it's not theft if you have to pay for it.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think you could make private sector RTB voluntary. That might work for a lot of people.

    A right, but only if the landlord volunteers it ?!
    Anything more would be state enforced theft of property.
    But that's what the state is doing with Housing Associations.

    Housing Associations are not the government but are being forced to sell off homes.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,869
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think you could make private sector RTB voluntary. That might work for a lot of people.

    A right, but only if the landlord volunteers it ?!
    Anything more would be state enforced theft of property.
    But that's what the state is doing with Housing Associations.

    Housing Associations are not the government but are being forced to sell off homes.
    Housing associations are the government as much as Network Rail is the government.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,635

    Jonathan said:

    So we're building to some kind of climax. Why is this?

    Has the PM simply run out of road down which to kick the can? Has she finally got off the fence and is taking on the Brexit Bastards in the cabinet? Or something else?

    I think she hates making decisions. I think she believes this will p*** off the fewest people. Unfortunately it will definitely p*** off her core vote plus all the people who voted Leave.

    I always believed that our political parties were strong enough to see off the populists. If she does this there will be a new party on the patriotic centre right and god help us all because they will get the F*** You vote.

    What happens if the ERG say they will vote against the government on every motion while the PM remains in office?
    Sadly I think you’re right. So who is the next James Goldsmith or Arron Banks that’s going to bankroll a “Brexit Means Brexit” candidate against every Remain MP at the next election?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,705
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think you could make private sector RTB voluntary. That might work for a lot of people.

    A right, but only if the landlord volunteers it ?!
    Anything more would be state enforced theft of property.
    But that's what the state is doing with Housing Associations.

    Housing Associations are not the government but are being forced to sell off homes.
    Housing associations are the government as much as Network Rail is the government.
    There are none so blind as those who will not see.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,222
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think you could make private sector RTB voluntary. That might work for a lot of people.

    A right, but only if the landlord volunteers it ?!
    Anything more would be state enforced theft of property.
    But that's what the state is doing with Housing Associations.

    Housing Associations are not the government but are being forced to sell off homes.
    The hypocritical Tory appetite for this small bit of enforced socialism is quite something.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    So we're building to some kind of climax. Why is this?

    Has the PM simply run out of road down which to kick the can? Has she finally got off the fence and is taking on the Brexit Bastards in the cabinet? Or something else?

    I think she hates making decisions. I think she believes this will p*** off the fewest people. Unfortunately it will definitely p*** off her core vote plus all the people who voted Leave.

    I always believed that our political parties were strong enough to see off the populists. If she does this there will be a new party on the patriotic centre right and god help us all because they will get the F*** You vote.

    What happens if the ERG say they will vote against the government on every motion while the PM remains in office?
    Sadly I think you’re right. So who is the next James Goldsmith or Arron Banks that’s going to bankroll a “Brexit Means Brexit” candidate against every Remain MP at the next election?
    I believe a certain V. V. Putin has access to quite substantial oil and gas revenues.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,869

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think you could make private sector RTB voluntary. That might work for a lot of people.

    A right, but only if the landlord volunteers it ?!
    Anything more would be state enforced theft of property.
    It's not a right if it's voluntary is it? And it's not theft if you have to pay for it.
    It's theft the minute the choice to sell or not is taken away. Make BTL uneconomic, regulate it to extinction, but enforced sale of private property is not something we should ever introduce.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sandpit said:

    Sadly I think you’re right. So who is the next James Goldsmith or Arron Banks that’s going to bankroll a “Brexit Means Brexit” candidate against every Remain MP at the next election?

    Vladimir Banksonovic...
This discussion has been closed.