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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes make Michael Gove favourite to succeed Rudd as HomeS

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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,030
    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,756

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    '41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food'

    They just stick to pizza, kebabs and curry.

  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806
    Electoral fraud should carry a nasty sentence. It's akin to treason.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,903
    I won’t say this makes interesting reading, but it is instructive:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/immigration-rules-statement-of-changes
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,375
    edited April 2018
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    Any polls expected today?

    I completed an Opinium VI poll on Thursday, so we might see that in the Observer.
    Hope so.
    Another one (or the same one delayed?) popped into my inbox today, with extensive leading questions about a new centre party - would I vote for it? (No.) How about if it had lots of MPs joining it? (No.) How about if my own MP joined it? (No.) How would I feel about my MP if he joined it? (His choice, shrug.) I suspect the answers closest to what the sponsors want will turn up in the media shortly.

    A bug in the poll is that it asks for 3 reasons why you favour party X. One of these is "like/dislike Corbyn". If you select that, as I did, it asks which of the 3 is most important to you, but it replaces "Corbyn" by "May" in the question.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    '41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food'

    They just stick to pizza, kebabs and curry.

    There's no reason to eat foreign muck when you can eat faggots.

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Betting Post

    F1: pre-race ramble here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/azerbaijan-pre-race-2018.html

    Was tempted by the Raikkonen suggestion, but went for Ricciardo at 9.6 instead. On race pace, I think Red Bull could be tasty.

    Also backed Raikkonen at 6 and Verstappen at 3.75 to not be classified. Both been a bit scruffy at the weekend.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,811
    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    The two statements aren't incompatible. The giveaway is in the verbs. Gove WANTS to do (Richard). Gove DOES (you). I give Gove one cheer for caring about what happens to the education of our children, which is a shockingly rare concern amongst education ministers. On the outcomes, not so much.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,375

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    +1.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Richard that is a big claim .I thought Goves wife told him he could win on his own terms ?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,911
    Sean_F said:

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    '41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food'

    They just stick to pizza, kebabs and curry.

    There's no reason to eat foreign muck when you can eat faggots.

    Two elderly women at a restaurant. ‘Boy, the food at this place is just terrible.’ ‘Yeah I know. And such small portions.’ (Woody Allen)
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,971

    Betting Post

    F1: pre-race ramble here:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/azerbaijan-pre-race-2018.html

    Was tempted by the Raikkonen suggestion, but went for Ricciardo at 9.6 instead. On race pace, I think Red Bull could be tasty.

    Also backed Raikkonen at 6 and Verstappen at 3.75 to not be classified. Both been a bit scruffy at the weekend.

    There’s a pile of opportunity there. I backed the bets I suggested earlier for small stakes (but put a couple of stakes on the SC), will sleep on your suggestions and take another look at Betfair in the morning.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882
    Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    '41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food'

    They just stick to pizza, kebabs and curry.

    There's no reason to eat foreign muck when you can eat faggots.

    Two elderly women at a restaurant. ‘Boy, the food at this place is just terrible.’ ‘Yeah I know. And such small portions.’ (Woody Allen)
    Not just one of the best Jew jokes, but one of the best jokes full-stop.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,526

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    '41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food'

    They just stick to pizza, kebabs and curry.

    I can understand never going abroad. But never visiting a beach?! We live on an island! No-one British lives more than a couple of hours from a beach. Our beaches are one of our greatest natural assets. That is very sad.
    A friend of mine is a teacher in one of the less salubrious bits of Salford. They took the kids to the beach at Formby, an hour away. They were amazed, and in some cases scared by the insolidity of the sand beneath their feet. The narrowness of the horizons of some of our least advantaged citizens is really quite difficult to grasp, and quite saddening.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Why would anyone be surprised? It was posted here a day or two back that the Conservative Party had complained, so now those complaints have to be investigated.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    Why would anyone be surprised? It was posted here a day or two back that the Conservative Party had complained, so now those complaints have to be investigated.
    That it's happening, not that it's being investigated.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    '41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food'

    They just stick to pizza, kebabs and curry.

    Experts from;

    "Kayak.co.uk is currently working with lad culture website UniLad to allow one lucky Brit the opportunity to go abroad for the first time."
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Mr. Z, I have no idea what you mean. Could you elaborate?

    Well, 12/1 bar (as in the header) = 12/1 the field = 12/1 any competitor not specifically mentioned above, including G Williamson. I think.
    Not quite. First the dangerous mistake is that it does not mean 12/1 the field because "the field" is a technical betting term and would pay out on anyone who is not named, but in this market you have to name someone. Second, 12/1 bar does not mean everyone else is 12/1, it means everyone else is 12/1 or a longer price.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,328
    edited April 2018
    Omnium said:

    Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.

    Isn't that the benchmark for politcal achievement in these debased times? Perhaps primum non nocere should be the new HoC motto.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,030
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    RobD said:

    Why would anyone be surprised? It was posted here a day or two back that the Conservative Party had complained, so now those complaints have to be investigated.
    That it's happening, not that it's being investigated.
    We don't know that it is happening, just that complaints have been made by the Conservative Party and that Labour has denied any wrongdoing. The tweet and story are three days old. I expect more will emerge, one way or the other. Isn't there a long-running investigation in Tower Hamlets as well?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,908
    edited April 2018
    brendan16 said:

    AndyJS said:

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    I'm guessing they voted heavily for Brexit and that Remain would have won fairly easily with the other 75%.
    Carry on sneering!
    Is that the one where Barbara Windsor sneers at a Remainer and her Bra falls off to reveal Union Jack Tassles?
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    That is what a lot of people felt about Gove when he was Justice secretary. He has a lot of good ideas, but he never gets to see them through.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882
    Cookie said:

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    '41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food'

    They just stick to pizza, kebabs and curry.

    I can understand never going abroad. But never visiting a beach?! We live on an island! No-one British lives more than a couple of hours from a beach. Our beaches are one of our greatest natural assets. That is very sad.
    A friend of mine is a teacher in one of the less salubrious bits of Salford. They took the kids to the beach at Formby, an hour away. They were amazed, and in some cases scared by the insolidity of the sand beneath their feet. The narrowness of the horizons of some of our least advantaged citizens is really quite difficult to grasp, and quite saddening.
    Indeed. As a young consultant I went on an away break to the (English) countryside - not far, probably somewhere in Surrey. One of my colleagues, a black kid from Walthamstow, confessed he’d never been to the countryside before.

    Now in our late 30s, he’s made up for it - travelled all over, and actually divides his time between businesses in London and SF.

    But, it is easy to forget what pockets of deprivation exist.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    I have no passport, have been abroad only once (unless Wales counts) and have never visited another capital city (unless Cardiff counts). There are whole swathes of this country I've not visited. I've been on a plane to Manchester. Though in a previous existence I took teenagers from a London suburb into the West End for the first time.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    nielh said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    That is what a lot of people felt about Gove when he was Justice secretary. He has a lot of good ideas, but he never gets to see them through.
    I'm sure he has bad ideas too, but he does at least have clear ideas and is willing to try them, for better or worse, not just worry about not rocking the boat so his career can proceed onward. I don't doubt his ambition, but it doesn't seem like he allows his ambition to prevent him from trying things in his various departments.
    Cookie said:

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    '41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food'

    They just stick to pizza, kebabs and curry.

    I can understand never going abroad. But never visiting a beach?! We live on an island! No-one British lives more than a couple of hours from a beach. Our beaches are one of our greatest natural assets. That is very sad.
    A friend of mine is a teacher in one of the less salubrious bits of Salford. They took the kids to the beach at Formby, an hour away. They were amazed, and in some cases scared by the insolidity of the sand beneath their feet. The narrowness of the horizons of some of our least advantaged citizens is really quite difficult to grasp, and quite saddening.
    What a sad tale.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806

    Omnium said:

    Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.

    Isn't that the benchmark for politcal achievement in these debased times? Perhaps primum non nocere should be the new HoC motto.
    Debased times! Nonsense. However it may be that we set our politicians such abominably low standards that it seems that way. Political achievement is still there to be had, and there are politicians who have achieved something-or-other recently (Clegg). Rees-Mogg (who I like) feels like a diarist at the end of an empire. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but then vultures circling isn't a good sign.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079

    I'm a bit narked off at OGH.

    This was going to be what my morning thread was going to be about.

    The benefits of being the boss.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079

    brendan16 said:

    AndyJS said:

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    I'm guessing they voted heavily for Brexit and that Remain would have won fairly easily with the other 75%.
    Carry on sneering!
    Is that the one where Barbara Windsor sneers at a Remainer and her Bra falls off to reveal Union Jack Tassles?
    Bravo!
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    felix said:
    In the absence of an effective LOTO Adonis is filling the gap.
    It would be a brave LOTO who manoeuvred to bring down the Government over an operational issue where their own policy is probably less coherent or aligned with the view of the general public.

    For Labour to generate a confidence vote it would have to be over something that they were more popular than the Government, and for a serious issue. We all know what happened last year when Mrs May forced everyone to vote again, when they weren't expecting it.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d3PKE8uTSp8
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,971

    brendan16 said:

    AndyJS said:

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    I'm guessing they voted heavily for Brexit and that Remain would have won fairly easily with the other 75%.
    Carry on sneering!
    Is that the one where Barbara Windsor sneers at a Remainer and her Bra falls off to reveal Union Jack Tassles?
    Followed by being chased around the garden in a speeded up film to the tune of Yakety Sax?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079

    felix said:
    In the absence of an effective LOTO Adonis is filling the gap.
    That would suggest he is filling the gap with something effective. I struggle to see that, even if he is not as conspiracy loonish in that particular tweet.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,134
    Off-topic:

    Someone rich enough to own a Tesla, and stupid enough to believe Tesla's hype ...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-43934504
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    With regard to Amber Rudd, I think her predicament just goes to show how dysfunctional our entire political system is.

    I don't think she misled Parliament over the 'removal targets'. She just didn't know the answer and guessed wrong. How would she know every detail of every bit of how the Home Office operates? It is a massive department that does millions of things. It isn't realistic to expect her to know the minutae of issues relating to immigration enforcement.

    What is more curious is her stance that she knew nothing about the problems facing the 'Windrush' immigrants. She will surely have known all about it, because it was written about in the Guardian and was the subject of various public campaigns, and lobbying efforts by commonwealth countries. But for whatever reason, she was happy for the status quo to continue, along with whatever collateral damage it created.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    So, let's fix it. Go and stand in the corner immediately for using 'unfit for purpose'. Stay there until its clear to others that your lesson has been learned.

    We may need to pad and decorate a corner for Mr Gove - he'll be there a long time. However his predecessors will be doing life stints.

  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    Cookie said:

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    '41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food'

    They just stick to pizza, kebabs and curry.

    I can understand never going abroad. But never visiting a beach?! We live on an island! No-one British lives more than a couple of hours from a beach. Our beaches are one of our greatest natural assets. That is very sad.
    A friend of mine is a teacher in one of the less salubrious bits of Salford. They took the kids to the beach at Formby, an hour away. They were amazed, and in some cases scared by the insolidity of the sand beneath their feet. The narrowness of the horizons of some of our least advantaged citizens is really quite difficult to grasp, and quite saddening.
    Whilst for some this will be a choice, for a lot they live payday to payday and never have the spare money to do anything like day trips, even if it would actually cost little to do, horizons are limited in every sense.

    I grew up in the North West and it is these people I think about whenever people sneer about Brexit. Literally these people have nothing to lose, so an argument about people not wanting to be worse off seems unlikely to succeed with them.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,477

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    How many times do you need telling that his meddling made matters far, far worse, not better?

    Which is doubly frustrating as with minor modifications, a longer lead in time and a willingness to bang heads together at the DfES (which contrary to his and Cummings' propaganda he was totally unwilling to do, reserving his abuse for teachers) his programme could actually have worked.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,030
    edited April 2018
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    How many times do you need telling that his meddling made matters far, far worse, not better?

    Which is doubly frustrating as with minor modifications, a longer lead in time and a willingness to bang heads together at the DfES (which contrary to his and Cummings' propaganda he was totally unwilling to do, reserving his abuse for teachers) his programme could actually have worked.
    It could never have worked because no matter how good it was the teaching unions would have fought it all the way just like they have every other reform for the past 30 years or more.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,477

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    How many times do you need telling that his meddling made matters far, far worse, not better?

    Which is doubly frustrating as with minor modifications, a longer lead in time and a willingness to bang heads together at the DfES (which contrary to his and Cummings' propaganda he was totally unwilling to do, reserving his abuse for teachers) his programme could actually have worked.
    It could never have worked because no matter how good it was because the teaching unions would have fought it all the way just like they have every other reform for the past 30 years or more.
    The teaching unions supported Gove at the start. As did I. It was his decision to sell out to the DfES and treat us as the enemy that wrecked his reforms.

    And if they are so good, tell me why I still don't have a mark scheme for exams my students are sitting NEXT MONTH after Amanda Spielman muddled up the words 'analyse' and 'evaluate.' That's a consequence at least in part of his haste.

    I will allow it isn't Gove's fault she was subsequently made Head of OFSTED with the inevitable consequence that all inspection reports are now worthless and the entire system is imploding.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    How many times do you need telling that his meddling made matters far, far worse, not better?

    Which is doubly frustrating as with minor modifications, a longer lead in time and a willingness to bang heads together at the DfES (which contrary to his and Cummings' propaganda he was totally unwilling to do, reserving his abuse for teachers) his programme could actually have worked.
    What did he actually do during his time at education? My impression is that he created a vast amount of disruption, introduced free schools, went to war with teachers, but what ultimately changed?
  • Options
    oldpoliticsoldpolitics Posts: 455
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:


    But it is the people who are claiming that the Labour Party has a problem with anti-semitism who should provide the proof of what, if true, would be a very serious accusation. But it is all inuendo and insinuation.

    Why is Jeremy Corbyn making up innuendo and insinuation against his own party? He is the most prominent person claiming they have a problem.
    The #LabourAntisemitism Twitter account is naming Labour Antisemites one at a time, on an A to Z basis, alphabetically by first name.

    They have been going for three days and so far have reached G - and that's only the ones who are stupid enough to be antisemitic in public using their real names.
    Shouldn't they rest on Saturdays?
    Classy.
    ......Like coming on here ANONYMOUSLY and boasting of tweeting the names of Labour antsemites from A-Z after previously describing someone as a "Mugabe-loving Jew-hating loony" and then as if the identity politics needed further underlining you sneer at a report because it's written by a 'British Bengali Lawyer'.

    Now THAT's classy!
    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events meant to address antisemitism, and shared a platform with some of Labour's foremost antisemites, fact. He's unhinged. Fact.

    I didn't sneer at the Chakrabarti report and didn't do so for that reason - your insinuation that I had a racist motivation is both offensive, and projection. It was part of an extensive list of reasons the whole thing had zip all to do with Israel and Palestine, and that the people shouting "Free Palestine" at Ruth Smeeth when she went to give evidence about the antisemitic abuse she was subjected to need to consider their motivations.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    nielh said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    How many times do you need telling that his meddling made matters far, far worse, not better?

    Which is doubly frustrating as with minor modifications, a longer lead in time and a willingness to bang heads together at the DfES (which contrary to his and Cummings' propaganda he was totally unwilling to do, reserving his abuse for teachers) his programme could actually have worked.
    What did he actually do during his time at education? My impression is that he created a vast amount of disruption, introduced free schools, went to war with teachers, but what ultimately changed?
    Pupils in England now have to learn English grammar. The value of this should not be underestimated.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    My apologies for posting fake news, it is 8% not 25%.

    Nearly a quarter of British adults have never been on a plane, a new study has revealed.

    A fifth (20 per cent) say they have never visited a beach in their life, 25 per cent have never visited a European capital city and 41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food.

    One in ten Brits (eight per cent) have stayed in the UK their entire life and never once been abroad while a quarter (22 per cent) have never travelled on an aeroplane.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4009336/Nearly-quarter-Brits-never-plane-visited-European-capital.html
    '41 per cent say they've never tried foreign food'

    They just stick to pizza, kebabs and curry.

    There's no reason to eat foreign muck when you can eat faggots.

    Two elderly women at a restaurant. ‘Boy, the food at this place is just terrible.’ ‘Yeah I know. And such small portions.’ (Woody Allen)
    Best of all is Mel Brooks.

    "How did your mother react when you got engaged to a Catholic?"

    "It was hard to tell, as she had her head in the oven, with the gas switched on."
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    RoyalBlue said:

    nielh said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    How many times do you need telling that his meddling made matters far, far worse, not better?

    Which is doubly frustrating as with minor modifications, a longer lead in time and a willingness to bang heads together at the DfES (which contrary to his and Cummings' propaganda he was totally unwilling to do, reserving his abuse for teachers) his programme could actually have worked.
    What did he actually do during his time at education? My impression is that he created a vast amount of disruption, introduced free schools, went to war with teachers, but what ultimately changed?
    Pupils in England now have to learn English grammar. The value of this should not be underestimated.
    I never formally learned grammar at school. Of course, it would have been good to, not least as it would be easier to learn foreign languages. But I don't think it is a big deal.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:


    But it is the people who are claiming that the Labour Party has a problem with anti-semitism who should provide the proof of what, if true, would be a very serious accusation. But it is all inuendo and insinuation.

    Why is Jeremy Corbyn making up innuendo and insinuation against his own party? He is the most prominent person claiming they have a problem.
    The #LabourAntisemitism Twitter account is naming Labour Antisemites one at a time, on an A to Z basis, alphabetically by first name.

    They have been going for three days and so far have reached G - and that's only the ones who are stupid enough to be antisemitic in public using their real names.
    Shouldn't they rest on Saturdays?
    Classy.
    ......Like coming on here ANONYMOUSLY and boasting of tweeting the names of Labour antsemites from A-Z after previously describing someone as a "Mugabe-loving Jew-hating loony" and then as if the identity politics needed further underlining you sneer at a report because it's written by a 'British Bengali Lawyer'.

    Now THAT's classy!
    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events meant to address antisemitism, and shared a platform with some of Labour's foremost antisemites, fact. He's unhinged. Fact.

    I didn't sneer at the Chakrabarti report and didn't do so for that reason - your insinuation that I had a racist motivation is both offensive, and projection. It was part of an extensive list of reasons the whole thing had zip all to do with Israel and Palestine, and that the people shouting "Free Palestine" at Ruth Smeeth when she went to give evidence about the antisemitic abuse she was subjected to need to consider their motivations.
    You can't question the motives of others and go around declaring everyone to be a racist when your own motives are pretty questionable. Your joy at the seeing the man who campaigned for justice in the Stephen Lawrence case and your attempts to smear him are particularly telling.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    edited April 2018

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:


    But it is the people who are claiming that the Labour Party has a problem with anti-semitism who should provide the proof of what, if true, would be a very serious accusation. But it is all inuendo and insinuation.

    Why is Jeremy Corbyn making up innuendo and insinuation against his own party? He is the most prominent person claiming they have a problem.
    The #LabourAntisemitism Twitter account is naming Labour Antisemites one at a time, on an A to Z basis, alphabetically by first name.

    They have been going for three days and so far have reached G - and that's only the ones who are stupid enough to be antisemitic in public using their real names.
    Shouldn't they rest on Saturdays?
    Classy.
    ......Like coming on here ANONYMOUSLY and boasting of tweeting the names of Labour antsemites from A-Z after previously describing someone as a "Mugabe-loving Jew-hating loony" and then as if the identity politics needed further underlining you sneer at a report because it's written by a 'British Bengali Lawyer'.

    Now THAT's classy!
    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events meant to address antisemitism, and shared a platform with some of Labour's foremost antisemites, fact. He's unhinged. Fact.

    I didn't sneer at the Chakrabarti report and didn't do so for that reason - your insinuation that I had a racist motivation is both offensive, and projection. It was part of an extensive list of reasons the whole thing had zip all to do with Israel and Palestine, and that the people shouting "Free Palestine" at Ruth Smeeth when she went to give evidence about the antisemitic abuse she was subjected to need to consider their motivations.
    You can't question the motives of others and go around declaring everyone to be a racist when your own motives are pretty questionable. Your joy at the seeing the man who campaigned for justice in the Stephen Lawrence case and your attempts to smear him are particularly telling.
    That's not all he has done, is it? Otherwise why was he expelled from the Labour party?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,477
    nielh said:

    What did he actually do during his time at education? My impression is that he created a vast amount of disruption, introduced free schools, went to war with teachers, but what ultimately changed?

    1) Effectively abolished LEAs by severely emasculating them and allowing schools to leave their control

    2) introducing the concept of academy chains, including for profit academy chains

    3) Introduced new exams, including changing the GCSE grading system and effectively abolishing AS levels.

    4) Reworked all criteria for said exams, to make them more rigorous.

    5) Introduced a more dogmatic inspection regime, led by Michael Wilshaw.

    I could go on but those are the key points.

    None of these are actually stupid ideas in and of themselves, especially the first. I wouldn't wish to work in an LEA school again - they don't care about schools, and in the case of Bristol, actively work to damage them. And it's ironic to reflect how popular the appointment of Wilson, with 27 years of distinguished service as a head, was at the time. I would also agree the old exam system was badly flawed and in desperate need of an overhaul.

    But the mistakes were legion. Academy chains have been an utter fiasco. What has happened - as any fool could have told him except apparently Cummings - is that the chains dived in, took the money and hurriedly walked away again when it was obvious they weren't able to quickly fix the problems (and often by making unwise economies on staffing, made them worse). Because of the speed with which the exams were introduced, we've had blunder after blunder. Marking criteria being bungled is a bad example but it's not the only one. Textbooks being full of errors due to rushing is unhelpful. This also means that we have to prepare our own resources which is enormously time consuming given the sheer volume of the new curriculum. Moreover, as the subjects have not been pruned it is pretty well impossible to teach the new GCSEs in two years and most schools have had to move to three year courses.. This is going to have a savage impact on basic skills. Wilshaw repeatedly issued new guidelines and abolished the old unified systems to allow for a more flexible system - but due to pressure his inspectors repeatedly ignored it. That meant we went from box ticking exercises to having to cover every single possible base. As you can imagine, this massively increased workload.

    So his tenure had a big impact, but because of his simplistic 'if you're not with me you're against me' view of the world, and his refusal to listen to people who actually knew what they were talking about, what could have been the crowning glory of the coalition became its deepest shame. And on the way it irretrievably damaged the education of hundreds of thousands of children.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,806

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    How many times do you need telling that his meddling made matters far, far worse, not better?

    Which is doubly frustrating as with minor modifications, a longer lead in time and a willingness to bang heads together at the DfES (which contrary to his and Cummings' propaganda he was totally unwilling to do, reserving his abuse for teachers) his programme could actually have worked.
    It could never have worked because no matter how good it was the teaching unions would have fought it all the way just like they have every other reform for the past 30 years or more.
    So it begs the question whether anyone that isn't a teacher actually thinks teachers do a good job, or have ever done a good job? Personally I think they do really great things in terms of corralling their herd, but little in terms of imparting wisdom - and the latter mainly because they have no wisdom to impart.

    In my experience the educational standards are getting much lower.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    nielh said:

    With regard to Amber Rudd, I think her predicament just goes to show how dysfunctional our entire political system is.

    I don't think she misled Parliament over the 'removal targets'. She just didn't know the answer and guessed wrong. How would she know every detail of every bit of how the Home Office operates? It is a massive department that does millions of things. It isn't realistic to expect her to know the minutae of issues relating to immigration enforcement.

    What is more curious is her stance that she knew nothing about the problems facing the 'Windrush' immigrants. She will surely have known all about it, because it was written about in the Guardian and was the subject of various public campaigns, and lobbying efforts by commonwealth countries. But for whatever reason, she was happy for the status quo to continue, along with whatever collateral damage it created.

    Your third paragraph shows what is wrong with Rudd in the second. She knew she would be questioned and what about. It is not as if she was ambushed with a question on the paperclips budget for the Wolverhampton office. Some of us cynics believe that she deliberately chose not to bone up for the committee in order to maintain plausible deniability. I do not know if she should resign but in an earlier time she would have walked the plank by now. These days, who knows?

    At least she has not hung a junior minister or civil servant out to dry like David Gaulke did, let alone caused a scientist to cut his wrists, so that is to her credit.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    nielh said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    nielh said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    How many times do you need telling that his meddling made matters far, far worse, not better?

    Which is doubly frustrating as with minor modifications, a longer lead in time and a willingness to bang heads together at the DfES (which contrary to his and Cummings' propaganda he was totally unwilling to do, reserving his abuse for teachers) his programme could actually have worked.
    What did he actually do during his time at education? My impression is that he created a vast amount of disruption, introduced free schools, went to war with teachers, but what ultimately changed?
    Pupils in England now have to learn English grammar. The value of this should not be underestimated.
    I never formally learned grammar at school. Of course, it would have been good to, not least as it would be easier to learn foreign languages. But I don't think it is a big deal.
    IMHO, learning grammar is essential, in order to express oneself well. It matters far more than learning to spell.
  • Options
    oldpoliticsoldpolitics Posts: 455
    edited April 2018

    Roger said:

    Roger said:


    Shouldn't they rest on Saturdays?
    Classy.
    ......Like coming on here ANONYMOUSLY and boasting of tweeting the names of Labour antsemites from A-Z after previously describing someone as a "Mugabe-loving Jew-hating loony" and then as if the identity politics needed further underlining you sneer at a report because it's written by a 'British Bengali Lawyer'.

    Now THAT's classy!
    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events meant to address antisemitism, and shared a platform with some of Labour's foremost antisemites, fact. He's unhinged. Fact.

    I didn't sneer at the Chakrabarti report and didn't do so for that reason - your insinuation that I had a racist motivation is both offensive, and projection. It was part of an extensive list of reasons the whole thing had zip all to do with Israel and Palestine, and that the people shouting "Free Palestine" at Ruth Smeeth when she went to give evidence about the antisemitic abuse she was subjected to need to consider their motivations.
    You can't question the motives of others and go around declaring everyone to be a racist when your own motives are pretty questionable. Your joy at the seeing the man who campaigned for justice in the Stephen Lawrence case and your attempts to smear him are particularly telling.
    I'm not declaring anyone to be a racist apart from the antisemites who out themselves flagrantly. That some have done good things in the past is irrelevant to the facts of the case now. Ken Livingstone, lots of great things as Mayor - still a Jew-baiter and shill for Iran now.

    The notion that listing all the possible cultural and national heritages one could consider vaguely touched by the case, in order to demonstrate that Israeli or Arab is not amongst them, is a racist act, is staggeringly weird. You need help.

    As for the claim that the reference to his backing for Mugabe was a dog whistle, it's simply an illustration that the man's mind is twisted. If you have such high ethical standards for the conduct of nations that Israel falls far enough below them to merit you devoting a great deal of time to opposing it, then I guess that's your business. But if your model of good government is Mugabe era Zimbabwe? Hell no.

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:


    But it is the people who are claiming that the Labour Party has a problem with anti-semitism who should provide the proof of what, if true, would be a very serious accusation. But it is all inuendo and insinuation.

    Why is Jeremy Corbyn making up innuendo and insinuation against his own party? He is the most prominent person claiming they have a problem.
    The #LabourAntisemitism Twitter account is naming Labour Antisemites one at a time, on an A to Z basis, alphabetically by first name.

    They have been going for three days and so far have reached G - and that's only the ones who are stupid enough to be antisemitic in public using their real names.
    Shouldn't they rest on Saturdays?
    Classy.
    ......Like coming on here ANONYMOUSLY and boasting of tweeting the names of Labour antsemites from A-Z after previously describing someone as a "Mugabe-loving Jew-hating loony" and then as if the identity politics needed further underlining you sneer at a report because it's written by a 'British Bengali Lawyer'.

    Now THAT's classy!
    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events meant to address antisemitism, and shared a platform with some of Labour's foremost antisemites, fact. He's unhinged. Fact.

    I didn't sneer at the Chakrabarti report and didn't do so for that reason - your insinuation that I had a racist motivation is both offensive, and projection. It was part of an extensive list of reasons the whole thing had zip all to do with Israel and Palestine, and that the people shouting "Free Palestine" at Ruth Smeeth when she went to give evidence about the antisemitic abuse she was subjected to need to consider their motivations.
    You can't question the motives of others and go around declaring everyone to be a racist when your own motives are pretty questionable. Your joy at the seeing the man who campaigned for justice in the Stephen Lawrence case and your attempts to smear him are particularly telling.
    You should be pleased that your party has got rid of an irritant.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:


    But it is the people who are claiming that the Labour Party has a problem with anti-semitism who should provide the proof of what, if true, would be a very serious accusation. But it is all inuendo and insinuation.

    Why is Jeremy Corbyn making up innuendo and insinuation against his own party? He is the most prominent person claiming they have a problem.
    The #LabourAntisemitism Twitter account is naming Labour Antisemites one at a time, on an A to Z basis, alphabetically by first name.

    They have been going for three days and so far have reached G - and that's only the ones who are stupid enough to be antisemitic in public using their real names.
    Shouldn't they rest on Saturdays?
    Classy.
    ......Like coming on here ANONYMOUSLY and boasting of tweeting the names of Labour antsemites from A-Z after previously describing someone as a "Mugabe-loving Jew-hating loony" and then as if the identity politics needed further underlining you sneer at a report because it's written by a 'British Bengali Lawyer'.

    Now THAT's classy!
    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events meant to address antisemitism, and shared a platform with some of Labour's foremost antisemites, fact. He's unhinged. Fact.

    I didn't sneer at the Chakrabarti report and didn't do so for that reason - your insinuation that I had a racist motivation is both offensive, and projection. It was part of an extensive list of reasons the whole thing had zip all to do with Israel and Palestine, and that the people shouting "Free Palestine" at Ruth Smeeth when she went to give evidence about the antisemitic abuse she was subjected to need to consider their motivations.
    You can't question the motives of others and go around declaring everyone to be a racist when your own motives are pretty questionable. Your joy at the seeing the man who campaigned for justice in the Stephen Lawrence case and your attempts to smear him are particularly telling.
    That's not all he has done, is it? Otherwise why was he expelled from the Labour party?
    He was expelled for bringing the party into disrepute. Which could mean almost anything really, depending on your faction within the party you could view lots of actions taken by both sides in the civil war to meet that standard.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    £8 a year. How long would that fuel your iPhone for?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:


    But it is the people who are claiming that the Labour Party has a problem with anti-semitism who should provide the proof of what, if true, would be a very serious accusation. But it is all inuendo and insinuation.

    Why is Jeremy Corbyn making up innuendo and insinuation against his own party? He is the most prominent person claiming they have a problem.
    The #LabourAntisemitism Twitter account is naming Labour Antisemites one at a time, on an A to Z basis, alphabetically by first name.

    They have been going for three days and so far have reached G - and that's only the ones who are stupid enough to be antisemitic in public using their real names.
    Shouldn't they rest on Saturdays?
    Classy.
    ......Like coming on here ANONYMOUSLY and boasting of tweeting the names of Labour antsemites from A-Z after previously describing someone as a "Mugabe-loving Jew-hating loony" and then as if the identity politics needed further underlining you sneer at a report because it's written by a 'British Bengali Lawyer'.

    Now THAT's classy!
    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events meant to address antisemitism, and shared a platform with some of Labour's foremost antisemites, fact. He's unhinged. Fact.

    I didn't sneer at the Chakrabarti report and didn't do so for that reason - your insinuation that I had a racist motivation is both offensive, and projection. It was part of an extensive list of reasons the whole thing had zip all to do with Israel and Palestine, and that the people shouting "Free Palestine" at Ruth Smeeth when she went to give evidence about the antisemitic abuse she was subjected to need to consider their motivations.
    You canarly telling.
    That's not all he has done, is it? Otherwise why was he expelled from the Labour party?
    He was expelled for bringing the party into disrepute. Which could mean almost anything really, depending on your faction within the party you could view lots of actions taken by both sides in the civil war to meet that standard.
    Hasn't he since claimed the leader's office called him to offer support, and they say he was lying about that? In which case factionalism seems pretty small fry, as whether he called the party into disrepute before, he is now - he's making things up about the views of the Leader's office.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    ydoethur said:

    nielh said:

    What did he actually do during his time at education? My impression is that he created a vast amount of disruption, introduced free schools, went to war with teachers, but what ultimately changed?

    1) Effectively abolished LEAs by severely emasculating them and allowing schools to leave their control

    2) introducing the concept of academy chains, including for profit academy chains

    3) Introduced new exams, including changing the GCSE grading system and effectively abolishing AS levels.

    4) Reworked all criteria for said exams, to make them more rigorous.

    5) Introduced a more dogmatic inspection regime, led by Michael Wilshaw.

    I could go on but those are the key points.

    None of these are actually stupid ideas in and of themselves, especially the first. I wouldn't wish to work in an LEA school again - they don't care about schools, and in the case of Bristol, actively work to damage them. And it's ironic to reflect how popular the appointment of Wilson, with 27 years of distinguished service as a head, was at the time. I would also agree the old exam system was badly flawed and in desperate need of an overhaul.

    But the mistakes were legion. Academy chains have been an utter fiasco. What has happened - as any fool could have told him except apparently Cummings - is that the chains dived in, took the money and hurriedly walked away again when it was obvious they weren't able to quickly fix the problems (and often by making unwise economies on staffing, made them worse). Because of the speed with which the exams were introduced, we've had blunder after blunder. Marking criteria being bungled is a bad example but it's not the only one. Textbooks being full of errors due to rushing is unhelpful. This also means that we have to prepare our own resources which is enormously time consuming given the sheer volume of the new curriculum. Moreover, as the subjects have not been pruned it is pretty well impossible to teach the new GCSEs in two years and most schools have had to move to three year courses.. This is going to have a savage impact on basic skills. Wilshaw repeatedly issued new guidelines and abolished the old unified systems to allow for a more flexible system - but due to pressure his inspectors repeatedly ignored it. That meant we went from box ticking exercises to having to cover every single possible base. As you can imagine, this massively increased workload.

    So his tenure had a big impact, but because of his simplistic 'if you're not with me you're against me' view of the world, and his refusal to listen to people who actually knew what they were talking about, what could have been the crowning glory of the coalition became its deepest shame. And on the way it irretrievably damaged the education of hundreds of thousands of children.
    Interesting. Thanks for that. Sounds like a right mess.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    Sean_F said:

    nielh said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    nielh said:

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    How many times do you need telling that his meddling made matters far, far worse, not better?

    Which is doubly frustrating as with minor modifications, a longer lead in time and a willingness to bang heads together at the DfES (which contrary to his and Cummings' propaganda he was totally unwilling to do, reserving his abuse for teachers) his programme could actually have worked.
    What did he actually do during his time at education? My impression is that he created a vast amount of disruption, introduced free schools, went to war with teachers, but what ultimately changed?
    Pupils in England now have to learn English grammar. The value of this should not be underestimated.
    I never formally learned grammar at school. Of course, it would have been good to, not least as it would be easier to learn foreign languages. But I don't think it is a big deal.
    IMHO, learning grammar is essential, in order to express oneself well. It matters far more than learning to spell.
    I presume it would be helpful, but it seems most people of my generation, myself included, were not taught grammar in any formal manner, and we're doing ok. Certainly there are people who are taught the rules who still don't express themselves well, and vice versa.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,636
    edited April 2018
    Charles said:

    25% of Brits have never been abroad.

    Seems a bit rum to force them to spend circa £80 every ten years to get a passport just so they can a form of photo ID.

    £8 a year. How long would that fuel your iPhone for?
    An iPhone is a necessity a passport is not particularly if you don't travel abroad.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited April 2018

    Roger said:

    Roger said:


    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events meant to address antisemitism, and shared a platform with some of Labour's foremost antisemites, fact. He's unhinged. Fact.

    I didn't sneer at the Chakrabarti report and didn't do so for that reason - your insinuation that I had a racist motivation is both offensive, and projection. It was part of an extensive list of reasons the whole thing had zip all to do with Israel and Palestine, and that the people shouting "Free Palestine" at Ruth Smeeth when she went to give evidence about the antisemitic abuse she was subjected to need to consider their motivations.
    You can't question the motives of others and go around declaring everyone to be a racist when your own motives are pretty questionable. Your joy at the seeing the man who campaigned for justice in the Stephen Lawrence case and your attempts to smear him are particularly telling.
    I'm not declaring anyone to be a racist apart from the antisemites who out themselves flagrantly. That some have done good things in the past is irrelevant to the facts of the case now. Ken Livingstone, lots of great things as Mayor - still a Jew-baiter and shill for Iran now.

    The notion that listing all the possible cultural and national heritages one could consider vaguely touched by the case, in order to demonstrate that Israeli or Arab is not amongst them, is a racist act, is staggeringly weird. You need help.

    As for the claim that the reference to his backing for Mugabe was a dog whistle, it's simply an illustration that the man's mind is twisted. If you have such high ethical standards for the conduct of nations that Israel falls far enough below them to merit you devoting a great deal of time to opposing it, then I guess that's your business. But if your model of good government is Mugabe era Zimbabwe? Hell no.

    I'm guessing not all of that was in reply to me but on the Mugabe point, Mugabe clearly isn't a good leader, I would disagree with Marc on praising him as such, assuming he has. Although I would point out that if praising one country and criticising another, to the mind of some unfairly, is racism, or proof of some racist intent than many people could probably be branded as such.

    @Sean_F

    I could understand it if he was just done for the disrepute charge but the way it was built up as anti semitism and then he was found guilty giving some the chance to smear him is unacceptable to me and it feels politically motivated.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882
    edited April 2018
    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Only in England would people question the merit of teaching the grammar of their own language.

    It’s often embarrassing to compare the written English of Brits with that of immigrants, often from countries with no tradition of English use.

    At the risk of being shot to pieces, the educational system is also not setting people up for success when it fails to make pupils communicate in standard English. It’s not about accent, but nonstandard grammar and vocabulary. If you’re not able to do this, you won’t get beyond the interview stage for a lot of jobs.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,903

    ydoethur said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    I really like Gove but I don't want him to go anywhere at the moment. He is the first Environment Secretary I can remember who actually seems to want to do something practical about some of the most important issues facing our natural environment.

    I thought that about him when he was at education. All he really seemed to have achieved though was annoying teachers who then delivered even less. He then did his Boris-betrayal thing, and whatever the truth there it's hard to think well of him.
    I am still of the opinion that Gove made a great sacrificial service to the country when he destroyed Boris's PM campaign. I think he knew exactly what the consequences were and still chose to go it for the good of the country.

    As for the education system it is fundamentally broken and will remain so as long all those working in the system refuse to accept it needs a complete rebuild.
    Boris/Gove - the last-minute change of mind is ugly.

    Education - Gove had a good stint and achieved nothing.



    Nothing could be achieved. Education is broken and unfit for purpose and will remain so as long as a large proportoon of teachers refuse to accept it.
    How many times do you need telling that his meddling made matters far, far worse, not better?

    Which is doubly frustrating as with minor modifications, a longer lead in time and a willingness to bang heads together at the DfES (which contrary to his and Cummings' propaganda he was totally unwilling to do, reserving his abuse for teachers) his programme could actually have worked.
    It could never have worked because no matter how good it was the teaching unions would have fought it all the way just like they have every other reform for the past 30 years or more.
    In my experience, that’s just nonsense.
    Most teachers and school leaders, despite severe reservations about the half baked schemes which successive Education Secretaries have come up with, make every effort to implement them.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882
    RoyalBlue said:

    Only in England would people question the merit of teaching the grammar of their own language.

    It’s often embarrassing to compare the written English of Brits with that of immigrants, often from countries with no tradition of English use.

    At the risk of being shot to pieces, the educational system is also not setting people up for success when it fails to make pupils communicate in standard English. It’s not about accent, but nonstandard grammar and vocabulary. If you’re not able to do this, you won’t get beyond the interview stage for a lot of jobs.

    I think grammar was abandoned in all the English-speaking countries some time in the 70s.

    I was never taught grammar in NZ (educated in 80s and 90s).
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    The Independent understands that the offer would mean European citizens coming into the UK after Brexit would benefit from visa-free travel.

    That’s a bit different from the current freedom of movement rules. You can go to the US without a visa, doesn’t mean you can get a job.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,903
    ydoethur said:

    nielh said:

    What did he actually do during his time at education? My impression is that he created a vast amount of disruption, introduced free schools, went to war with teachers, but what ultimately changed?

    1) Effectively abolished LEAs by severely emasculating them and allowing schools to leave their control

    2) introducing the concept of academy chains, including for profit academy chains

    3) Introduced new exams, including changing the GCSE grading system and effectively abolishing AS levels.

    4) Reworked all criteria for said exams, to make them more rigorous.

    5) Introduced a more dogmatic inspection regime, led by Michael Wilshaw.

    I could go on but those are the key points.

    None of these are actually stupid ideas in and of themselves, especially the first. I wouldn't wish to work in an LEA school again - they don't care about schools, and in the case of Bristol, actively work to damage them. And it's ironic to reflect how popular the appointment of Wilson, with 27 years of distinguished service as a head, was at the time. I would also agree the old exam system was badly flawed and in desperate need of an overhaul.

    But the mistakes were legion. Academy chains have been an utter fiasco. What has happened - as any fool could have told him except apparently Cummings - is that the chains dived in, took the money and hurriedly walked away again when it was obvious they weren't able to quickly fix the problems (and often by making unwise economies on staffing, made them worse). Because of the speed with which the exams were introduced, we've had blunder after blunder. Marking criteria being bungled is a bad example but it's not the only one. Textbooks being full of errors due to rushing is unhelpful. This also means that we have to prepare our own resources which is enormously time consuming given the sheer volume of the new curriculum. Moreover, as the subjects have not been pruned it is pretty well impossible to teach the new GCSEs in two years and most schools have had to move to three year courses.. This is going to have a savage impact on basic skills. Wilshaw repeatedly issued new guidelines and abolished the old unified systems to allow for a more flexible system - but due to pressure his inspectors repeatedly ignored it. That meant we went from box ticking exercises to having to cover every single possible base. As you can imagine, this massively increased workload.

    So his tenure had a big impact, but because of his simplistic 'if you're not with me you're against me' view of the world, and his refusal to listen to people who actually knew what they were talking about, what could have been the crowning glory of the coalition became its deepest shame. And on the way it irretrievably damaged the education of hundreds of thousands of children.
    Agreed.
  • Options

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    Hurrah for free movement, told you the UK couldn't live without it.

    So we're keep free movement and effectively remaining in the customs union, this is BINO, hurrah for Theresa May.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited April 2018

    RoyalBlue said:

    Only in England would people question the merit of teaching the grammar of their own language.

    It’s often embarrassing to compare the written English of Brits with that of immigrants, often from countries with no tradition of English use.

    At the risk of being shot to pieces, the educational system is also not setting people up for success when it fails to make pupils communicate in standard English. It’s not about accent, but nonstandard grammar and vocabulary. If you’re not able to do this, you won’t get beyond the interview stage for a lot of jobs.

    I think grammar was abandoned in all the English-speaking countries some time in the 70s.

    I was never taught grammar in NZ (educated in 80s and 90s).
    It certainly hasn’t been abandoned in Africa. My Ghanaian colleague used to take great delight in taking apart some of the nonsense he used to get.

    @kle4 - it’s not people like you, of above average intelligence, who get the biggest benefit from teaching the rules of language. Failing to do it just creates another invisible barrier for people who don’t have books in the home, or parents who spend time with them, or good teachers, amongst other things.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,482

    On topic it won't be Gove.

    Tainted Gove
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:




    Shouldn't they rest on Saturdays?
    Classy.
    ......Like coming on here ANONYMOUSLY and boasting of tweeting the names of Labour antsemites from A-Z after previously describing someone as a "Mugabe-loving Jew-hating loony" and then as if the identity politics needed further underlining you sneer at a report because it's written by a 'British Bengali Lawyer'.

    Now THAT's classy!
    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events meant to address antisemitism, and shared a platform with some of Labour's foremost antisemites, fact. He's unhinged. Fact.

    I didn't sneer at the Chakrabarti report and didn't do so for that reason - your insinuation that I had a racist motivation is both offensive, and projection. It was part of an extensive list of reasons the whole thing had zip all to do with Israel and Palestine, and that the people shouting "Free Palestine" at Ruth Smeeth when she went to give evidence about the antisemitic abuse she was subjected to need to consider their motivations.
    You canarly telling.
    That's not all he has done, is it? Otherwise why was he expelled from the Labour party?
    He was expelled for bringing the party into disrepute. Which could mean almost anything really, depending on your faction within the party you could view lots of actions taken by both sides in the civil war to meet that standard.
    Hasn't he since claimed the leader's office called him to offer support, and they say he was lying about that? In which case factionalism seems pretty small fry, as whether he called the party into disrepute before, he is now - he's making things up about the views of the Leader's office.
    I feel by the standards of Labour over the last few years, assuming your right about a lie being told, that would still be pretty small fry. I haven't actually seen the various comments confirming the lie but considering how things go I am slightly suspicious that people have spun things a certain way to make it sound like a lie.

    In the same way a 'clever' Labour MP went on about anti semitism, zero tolerance and the expulsion of Marc Wadsworth in the same tweet, but carefully didn't actually link them despite heavily giving the implication of it.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    RoyalBlue said:

    Only in England would people question the merit of teaching the grammar of their own language.

    It’s often embarrassing to compare the written English of Brits with that of immigrants, often from countries with no tradition of English use.

    At the risk of being shot to pieces, the educational system is also not setting people up for success when it fails to make pupils communicate in standard English. It’s not about accent, but nonstandard grammar and vocabulary. If you’re not able to do this, you won’t get beyond the interview stage for a lot of jobs.

    The point is: it should be taught. It will help some people who don't otherwise develop strong language and communication skills. But at the end of the day, it isn't a big deal. Many people didn't learn it, and got on fine in life without it.

  • Options
    oldpoliticsoldpolitics Posts: 455
    edited April 2018

    Roger said:


    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events be era Zimbabwe? Hell no.

    I'm guessing not all of that was in reply to me but on the Mugabe point, Mugabe clearly isn't a good leader, I would disagree with Marc on praising him as such, assuming he has. Although I would point out that if praising one country and criticising another, to the mind of some unfairly, is racism, or proof of some racist intent than many people could probably be branded as such.
    No not all of it.

    Sure - forgetting the specifics of Wadsworth for now, the issue is general - it's fine to care about some things more than others, but if you are neither Jewish, not Israeli, nor Palestinian (or I guess at a push Jordanian, Syrian, etc) then caring monomaniacally about the real or imagined sins of the world's only Jewish country, while defending other vicious dictatorships is something that needs explanation.

    If people can't offer an explanation for, say, why they are demonstrating against Israel killing a dozen Palestinians in self defence, but in favour of Assad when he carpet bombs a Palestinian community in Syria, Occam's razor comes into play when working out what their specific problem with the world's only Jewish country is.

    An analogy: If I attacked Wadsworth and Walker and, oh, let's say Lee Jasper, but defended Livingstone, Williamson, and, say, Pam Bromley, I can completely understand why people would question my motives.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:




    Shouldn't they rest on Saturdays?
    Classy.
    ......Like coming on here ANONYMOUSLY and boasting of tweeting the names of Labour antsemites from A-Z after previously describing someone as a "Mugabe-loving Jew-hating loony" and then as if the identity politics needed further underlining you sneer at a report because it's written by a 'British Bengali Lawyer'.

    Now THAT's classy!
    For pity's sake.

    Marc Wadsworth has written about how Mugabe is great and unfairly maligned by white Westerners. Fact. He's disrupted events meant to address antisemitism, and shared a platform with some of Labour's foremost antisemites, fact. He's unhinged. Fact.

    I didn't sneer at the Chakrabarti report and didn't do so for that reason - your insinuation that I had a racist motivation is both offensive, and projection. It was part of an extensive list of reasons the whole thing had zip all to do with Israel and Palestine, and that the people shouting "Free Palestine" at Ruth Smeeth when she went to give evidence about the antisemitic abuse she was subjected to need to consider their motivations.
    You canarly telling.
    That's not all he has done, is it? Otherwise why was he expelled from the Labour party?
    He was expelled for bringing the party into disrepute. Which could mean almost anything really, depending on your faction within the party you could view lots of actions taken by both sides in the civil war to meet that standard.
    Hasn't he since claimed the leader's office called him to offer support, and they say he was lying about that? In which case factionalism seems pretty small fry, as whether he called the party into disrepute before, he is now - he's making things up about the views of the Leader's office.
    I feel by the standards of Labour over the last few years, assuming your right about a lie being told, that would still be pretty small fry.
    The point was, if it is true Corbyn's office is calling him a liar, then the idea this is about factions within the party becomes more risible, since his purported claim was about having the backing of one faction against the other.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    nunuone said:
    If we could push it back to 2080 or so I am much more likely to be dead, so it is ok.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,176

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Only in England would people question the merit of teaching the grammar of their own language.

    It’s often embarrassing to compare the written English of Brits with that of immigrants, often from countries with no tradition of English use.

    At the risk of being shot to pieces, the educational system is also not setting people up for success when it fails to make pupils communicate in standard English. It’s not about accent, but nonstandard grammar and vocabulary. If you’re not able to do this, you won’t get beyond the interview stage for a lot of jobs.

    I think grammar was abandoned in all the English-speaking countries some time in the 70s.

    I was never taught grammar in NZ (educated in 80s and 90s).
    It certainly hasn’t been abandoned in Africa. My Ghanaian colleague used to take great delight in taking apart some of the nonsense he used to get.

    @kle4 - it’s not people like you, of above average intelligence, who get the biggest benefit from teaching the rules of language. Failing to do it just creates another invisible barrier for people who don’t have books in the home, or parents who spend time with them, or good teachers, amongst other things.
    You make a good point, and thank you kindly.
  • Options
    nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
    "They would then be able to gain the right to work in the UK under a new status that would be distinct for people arriving from the EU."

    Sorry that is unacceptable....it would be brexit betrayed.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,908

    On topic it won't be Gove.

    Tainted Gove
    Don't

    For I toss and turn I can't sleep at night
  • Options
    nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    The Independent understands that the offer would mean European citizens coming into the UK after Brexit would benefit from visa-free travel.

    That’s a bit different from the current freedom of movement rules. You can go to the US without a visa, doesn’t mean you can get a job.
    the article says they will be able to apply for a job as soon as they come here a "new status".....that is basically the same as now, we have to face it TMay is preparing to betray the brexit vote. She has to go. she is crap.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882
    nunuone said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
    "They would then be able to gain the right to work in the UK under a new status that would be distinct for people arriving from the EU."

    Sorry that is unacceptable....it would be brexit betrayed.
    Not really.

    Nowt about immigration on the ballot paper.
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    nunuone said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
    "They would then be able to gain the right to work in the UK under a new status that would be distinct for people arriving from the EU."

    Sorry that is unacceptable....it would be brexit betrayed.
    Gove and Boris betrayed Brexit when they voted against giving the NHS an extra £350 million per week.

    Gove betrayed the fishpeople over the CFP.

    The Brexit that was promised is undeliverable.

    Suck it up.
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    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    @oldpolitics

    Let's escape the long quote.

    How many people are actually in favour of Assad and then actively supportive of his killing of Palestinians specifically?

    I realise it is a popular meme among the right but not wanting to engage in war in Syria is not the same as actually supporting Assad.

    Any more than wanting to bomb Assad is equivalent to supporting some of his Islamic fundamentalist opponents.

    Anyone who doesn't just want Assad to win for what they see as practical reasons but because they actually enjoy his slaughtering of people and Palestinians but complain bitterly when the Israeli's kill Palestinians could well be anti semitic. They at least would be very unfair on Israel compared to Syria.

    Although I do always wonder if you turn these things around, how fair is it to criticise the Palestinians locked up and starved in their walled up ghettos because of their extremism and then actively support bombing Assad when some of his strongest opponents who could capitalise are extremists themselves?

    Foreign affairs is a largely grey area.

    As to the extra attention to the Israel-Palestine situation it is another one where you can turn it around. Would so many people go out of their way to defend and justify the actions of Israel if the people they inflicting suffering on were not just Arabs, Would there be such little international outcry and so much support from the worlds biggest powers if another country was stealing the land of its neighbour and forcing its population to live in poverty?

    Would there if it wasn't for the fact the Palestinians are Arabs who are largely Muslims.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    nunuone said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
    "They would then be able to gain the right to work in the UK under a new status that would be distinct for people arriving from the EU."

    Sorry that is unacceptable....it would be brexit betrayed.
    Gove and Boris betrayed Brexit when they voted against giving the NHS an extra £350 million per week.

    Gove betrayed the fishpeople over the CFP.

    The Brexit that was promised is undeliverable.

    Suck it up.
    I’m just glad the AV referendum result wasn’t betrayed... :p
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882

    nunuone said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
    "They would then be able to gain the right to work in the UK under a new status that would be distinct for people arriving from the EU."

    Sorry that is unacceptable....it would be brexit betrayed.
    Gove and Boris betrayed Brexit when they voted against giving the NHS an extra £350 million per week.

    Gove betrayed the fishpeople over the CFP.

    The Brexit that was promised is undeliverable.

    Suck it up.
    Am I the only person who, when reading fishpeople, imagines the “Sea Devils” of Pertwee-era Who?

    I’d paste a pic but don’t know how.
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    RobD said:

    nunuone said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
    "They would then be able to gain the right to work in the UK under a new status that would be distinct for people arriving from the EU."

    Sorry that is unacceptable....it would be brexit betrayed.
    Gove and Boris betrayed Brexit when they voted against giving the NHS an extra £350 million per week.

    Gove betrayed the fishpeople over the CFP.

    The Brexit that was promised is undeliverable.

    Suck it up.
    I’m just glad the AV referendum result wasn’t betrayed... :p
    We're just following the approach of Leavers after the 1975 plebiscite.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    nunuone said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
    "They would then be able to gain the right to work in the UK under a new status that would be distinct for people arriving from the EU."

    Sorry that is unacceptable....it would be brexit betrayed.
    Yep and May better hope that many on the leave side have the impression it's tougher.

    The woman crumbles every time.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    nunuone said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
    "They would then be able to gain the right to work in the UK under a new status that would be distinct for people arriving from the EU."

    Sorry that is unacceptable....it would be brexit betrayed.
    Gove and Boris betrayed Brexit when they voted against giving the NHS an extra £350 million per week.

    Gove betrayed the fishpeople over the CFP.

    The Brexit that was promised is undeliverable.

    Suck it up.
    It’s undeliverable because we had a revolution in which the revolutionaries thought they could win, retire and see their dreams realised.
    Only Cummings and Gove appreciated the institutional upheaval that would be necessary to deliver a meaningful Brexit.

    If only they’d read more history.
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    nunuone said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
    "They would then be able to gain the right to work in the UK under a new status that would be distinct for people arriving from the EU."

    Sorry that is unacceptable....it would be brexit betrayed.
    Gove and Boris betrayed Brexit when they voted against giving the NHS an extra £350 million per week.

    Gove betrayed the fishpeople over the CFP.

    The Brexit that was promised is undeliverable.

    Suck it up.
    Am I the only person who, when reading fishpeople, imagines the “Sea Devils” of Pertwee-era Who?

    I’d paste a pic but don’t know how.
    Yay, someone got the reference.image
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,176
    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-04-27/brexit-failure-looks-more-likely-every-day

    Today, I will violate one of my favorite principles, and hereby make this prediction: No Brexit! In other words, the U.K. will not exit the European Union. By 2023, we will look back at the entire ridiculous affair as if it were a rediscovered lost episode of “Fawlty Towers.”
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,882

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-04-27/brexit-failure-looks-more-likely-every-day

    Today, I will violate one of my favorite principles, and hereby make this prediction: No Brexit! In other words, the U.K. will not exit the European Union. By 2023, we will look back at the entire ridiculous affair as if it were a rediscovered lost episode of “Fawlty Towers.”

    Indeed. The one where Basil fails to not mention the war.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    nunuone said:
    Unless better French fries are the root cause of nuclear war?
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    nunuone said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    The Independent understands that the offer would mean European citizens coming into the UK after Brexit would benefit from visa-free travel.

    That’s a bit different from the current freedom of movement rules. You can go to the US without a visa, doesn’t mean you can get a job.
    the article says they will be able to apply for a job as soon as they come here a "new status".....that is basically the same as now, we have to face it TMay is preparing to betray the brexit vote. She has to go. she is crap.
    There is quite a big difference between being able to visit and apply for a job, and having an absolute and unqualified right to live and work here, with free health care etc.

    This distinction will of course be completely lost amongst a large proportion of the population who voted leave, but it should win over enough Dan Hannan style leavers to get the deal across the line.
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    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    kle4 said:


    That's not all he has done, is it? Otherwise why was he expelled from the Labour party?
    He was expelled for bringing the party into disrepute. Which could mean almost anything really, depending on your faction within the party you could view lots of actions taken by both sides in the civil war to meet that standard.
    Hasn't he since claimed the leader's office called him to offer support, and they say he was lying about that? In which case factionalism seems pretty small fry, as whether he called the party into disrepute before, he is now - he's making things up about the views of the Leader's office.
    I feel by the standards of Labour over the last few years, assuming your right about a lie being told, that would still be pretty small fry.
    The point was, if it is true Corbyn's office is calling him a liar, then the idea this is about factions within the party becomes more risible, since his purported claim was about having the backing of one faction against the other.
    If true, which I do question, that could easily be Corbyn's office covering itself or just sacrificing Marc to please some of his MPs. The 2 MPs which gave character witness statements for Marc are Clive Lewis and Chris Williamson. This and lots of other things within Labour interact with the factional disputes, Corbyn saying something or supporting something or even doing something does not mean this is something that the left faction supports or thinks anymore than someone seen as the spokesman for the right wing of Labour speaks for all his faction or occasionally may say or imply things that don't represent that factions view.

    A good example might be his policy on Trident though obviously that is a policy so he can also speak against it. In this example if pressured into saying something he can't also say something against it.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Brexit without an independent trade policy is just about bearable. If we have no meaningful end to freedom of movement for work (tourism is fine), then there really is no point.
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    Anyhoo I've been repeatedly assured on PB that the referendum was nothing to do with immigration but about free trade.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930
    edited April 2018
    So Brexit is being betrayed/cancelled.

    Brexiteers now have nothing to lose - They might as well move against Theresa May on Monday.

    Get those letters in to Brady, roll the dice and lets see what happens.
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    nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138

    nunuone said:

    https://twitter.com/joewatts_/status/990301945620557824?s=21

    “On Saturday cabinet minister David Davis, who has fought for a harder Brexit, was reported to be on the brink of resigning over the UK’s apparently softening position on EU withdrawal.”

    I hope HYUFD doesn’t need medical attention after reading that.
    "They would then be able to gain the right to work in the UK under a new status that would be distinct for people arriving from the EU."

    Sorry that is unacceptable....it would be brexit betrayed.
    Yep and May better hope that many on the leave side have the impression it's tougher.

    The woman crumbles every time.
    I don't think it's her crumbling she just doesn't believe in it. She has never believed in the reasons for Brexit, all she is concerned about is getting a free trade deal with no tariffs that's it. She never cared about reducing immigration, look at her time in the Home Office, her legacy is higher net migration then even under New Labour! Now that some doing. Labour sent search parties out for pity's sake....
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930
    edited April 2018

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-04-27/brexit-failure-looks-more-likely-every-day

    Today, I will violate one of my favorite principles, and hereby make this prediction: No Brexit! In other words, the U.K. will not exit the European Union. By 2023, we will look back at the entire ridiculous affair as if it were a rediscovered lost episode of “Fawlty Towers.”

    And I will never vote in another election again in my life...

    Correction, I WILL vote for Jeremy Corbyn at the next avliable general election in order to take revenge on the establishment that betrayed my referendum vote.

    Then I'll never vote in another general election again in my life.
This discussion has been closed.