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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why the threat of a confidence vote on TMay has far less poten

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  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,403
    FF43 said:

    Elliot said:

    Charles said:

    Forget changing our patron saint. I mean what better emblem for England than some Johnny Foreigner from the Middle East taking over the job of an indigenous Englishman?

    Can we instead drop the French practice of giving our monarchs numbers after their name.

    Let us go back to giving our monarchs adjectives after their names.

    So when Charles becomes King he is known as Charles/George the Adulterer.

    Wouldn’t distinguish him from the others

    (My cousins have the same tradition - Sir Derek the Dragon-Slayer has a particularly good name...)
    Sounds like your cousins are a lot of fun.

    Say no to Edward I and yes to Edward The Hammer of the Scrotum Scots.
    I wonder if Scottish nationalism would have been a thing had his son not been incompetent.
    Every Scot is a nationalist. The only argument is what that means. Edward I, that most aggressive of monarchs could hammer the Scots, but the English could never get their occupations to pay or sustain themselves. Apart from Cromwell, won had the best organised state of premodern times and he found it a struggle.
    Same of course with the Irish. I wonder what the UK would look like now if Cornwall had been better organised.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    Mr. 43, Edward I's dickishness in his decision-making and elderly lack of vigour cost him in Scotland. That said, he could've won had he simply made smarter choices. Not rewarding the nobles (with land) who were risking life and limb cost him a lot.

    His son being pretty inept was also helpful to the Scots.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    JSpring said:

    felix said:

    It seems that Macron isn't turning out how the Guardian hoped:

    ' The French National Assembly has passed a tough new immigration law that tightens the rules around asylum.

    The bill shortens asylum application deadlines, doubles the time for which illegal migrants can be detained, and introduces a one-year prison sentence for entering France illegally. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43860880

    We await the howls of outrage blaming it on Tory scu... Oh...wait.
    It's not as if the left expected Macron to be some kind of socialist utopian anyway.
    No but he's the darling of the liberal chatterers..
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Mr. 43, Edward I's dickishness in his decision-making and elderly lack of vigour cost him in Scotland. That said, he could've won had he simply made smarter choices. Not rewarding the nobles (with land) who were risking life and limb cost him a lot.

    His son being pretty inept was also helpful to the Scots.

    We would never have kept it
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited April 2018
    JSpring said:

    felix said:

    It seems that Macron isn't turning out how the Guardian hoped:

    ' The French National Assembly has passed a tough new immigration law that tightens the rules around asylum.

    The bill shortens asylum application deadlines, doubles the time for which illegal migrants can be detained, and introduces a one-year prison sentence for entering France illegally. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43860880

    We await the howls of outrage blaming it on Tory scu... Oh...wait.
    It's not as if the left expected Macron to be some kind of socialist utopian anyway.
    The only friends of mine in France who are absolutely delighted with Macron didn't vote for him. They were supporters of Fillon.

    I don't think the French left had too many ideals about Macron, but they probably didn't expect such disillusionment so quickly,

    He reminds me of Helle Thorning-Schmidt (Mrs Kinnock), who is another darling of The Guardian.

    Helle's time in charge of Denmark resulted in a teachers' strike in which the state locked the striking teachers out of schools. A lock-out -- something you read about as being perpetrated by mine owners in the Rhondda in the Great Depression.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,905

    How could Theresa May have made the vote on the customs union a confidence issue? Or is she simply saying that if she lost that vote, she'd resign?

    Yes, she can't make it an actual confidence vote due to the FTPA but she could make it clear that should she be defeated she'd resign as leader and PM.
  • Options
    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Nigelb said:

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    Right: I've been trying to find a new patron Saint of England.

    Requirements:

    1. Needs to be a man. (Sorry: patron saints tend to be men.)
    2. Has to have been born in England.
    3. Needs a pronounceable name.

    Having scanned this list - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anglo-Saxon_saints - I'm not finding many options.

    St Bede?

    St Alfred.
    (Why be limited by Rome's narrow criteria ?)

    St Nigel?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,005
    Mr. Rabbit, debatable. It was a cohesive realm, unlike Caledonia in Septimius Severus' time, and it's possible the ultra-marina part could've been tricky and the bit below easier.

    Of course, had the Maid of Norway lived, things could've been better for everyone.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited April 2018
    Morning all,

    On topic: I haven't had time to read all the comments, so perhaps this point has been made already, but isn't there a rather glaring flaw in the alleged cunning plan of the Brexiteers to put pressure on Mrs May on this issue and install someone more amenable to their position? As George Osborne was fond of saying, the first rule of politics is to look at the numbers - the numbers of votes. Ditching Theresa May and Phil Hammond, and replacing them with Jacob Rees-Mogg and John Redwood, even if that were possible, would not make one iota of difference to the parliamentary numbers in favour of remaining in the Customs Union. If it triggered an election, it would very probably make the numbers even higher.

    So this is a gun pointed at the über-Brexiteers' own feet; Theresa May is their best hope.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,384
    GIN1138 said:

    How could Theresa May have made the vote on the customs union a confidence issue? Or is she simply saying that if she lost that vote, she'd resign?

    Yes, she can't make it an actual confidence vote due to the FTPA but she could make it clear that should she be defeated she'd resign as leader and PM.
    I don't believe her.

    But just in case, glad I got on a 2018 GE bet the other day following a tip on here.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,384
    Looks like Labour are having another cracking day:

    https://twitter.com/MikeFoster1403/status/988316441886773248
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,554

    Looks like Labour are having another cracking day:

    I don't see what the problem is. Her views seem entirely mainstream for the current incarnation of the Labour Party.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,384
    glw said:

    Looks like Labour are having another cracking day:

    I don't see what the problem is. Her views seem entirely mainstream for the current incarnation of the Labour Party.
    https://twitter.com/mrianleslie/status/988343111846940673
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,384
    Meanwhile, Owen Jones is having another day of having a go at the "elite" media:

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/988344431270088704

    Some of the replies are, how shall we put it, interesting.
  • Options
    kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393

    JSpring said:

    felix said:

    It seems that Macron isn't turning out how the Guardian hoped:

    ' The French National Assembly has passed a tough new immigration law that tightens the rules around asylum.

    The bill shortens asylum application deadlines, doubles the time for which illegal migrants can be detained, and introduces a one-year prison sentence for entering France illegally. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43860880

    We await the howls of outrage blaming it on Tory scu... Oh...wait.
    It's not as if the left expected Macron to be some kind of socialist utopian anyway.
    The only friends of mine in France who are absolutely delighted with Macron didn't vote for him. They were supporters of Fillon.

    I don't think the French left had too many ideals about Macron, but they probably didn't expect such disillusionment so quickly,

    He reminds me of Helle Thorning-Schmidt (Mrs Kinnock), who is another darling of The Guardian.

    Helle's time in charge of Denmark resulted in a teachers' strike in which the state locked the striking teachers out of schools. A lock-out -- something you read about as being perpetrated by mine owners in the Rhondda in the Great Depression.
    The Social Democrats in Denmark actually worked hard to break down the usual process for negotiations in order to impose their tough new legal framework on teachers (who are now governed by a law and not the traditional negotiating framework).

    So now unless something dramatic happens in the next two week we'll get another lock-out but on a much bigger scale - big risk of Denmark basically grinding to a halt for 4 or 5 weeks thanks to Mrs Kinnock and her destruction of trust in the system that has worked for over a hundred years.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,554
    edited April 2018

    glw said:

    Looks like Labour are having another cracking day:

    I don't see what the problem is. Her views seem entirely mainstream for the current incarnation of the Labour Party.
    https://twitter.com/mrianleslie/status/988343111846940673
    A party led by a man who asks for "incontrovertible evidence" of Russian involvement in the Salisbury attack will select similarly minded candidates. There will be many more like her in the party in the years to come.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,384

    Morning all,

    On topic: I haven't had time to read all the comments, so perhaps this point has been made already, but isn't there a rather glaring flaw in the alleged cunning plan of the Brexiteers to put pressure on Mrs May on this issue and install someone more amenable to their position? As George Osborne was fond of saying, the first rule of politics is to look at the numbers - the numbers of votes. Ditching Theresa May and Phil Hammond, and replacing them with Jacob Rees-Mogg and John Redwood, even if that were possible, would not make one iota of difference to the parliamentary numbers in favour of remaining in the Customs Union. If it triggered an election, it would very probably make the numbers even higher.

    So this is a gun pointed at the über-Brexiteers' own feet; Theresa May is their best hope.

    It is entirely possible that the hard Brexit gang have gone past the point of being able to work out basic tactics like this.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK.

    Question for PBers.

    My wife is off for the first two and half weeks of the summer holidays. (This is LA, so this is from about the 6th of June.)

    This leaves me with 16 days to entertain an 8 and a 10 year old.

    I'm not going to stay home, because I'd go mad, so am going to bundle them onto a plane and do something. Specifically something awesome that they'll love. I don't mind jumping on a plane for 12 hours if I have to, and I have two million airmiles, so can afford to go practically anywhere.

    Suggestions?

    Horse back riding in Montana

    Hiking and biking in Teleride

    Beaches in SoCal
    Northern California is much nicer.
    A couple of days in Monterey taking in the aquarium ? (my kids loved it at that age).

    One place for 16 days, and I suspect you'd still go mad.... move around.
    Last summer we spent 10 days split between San Francisco, Yosemite, Monterey and Sonoma. Kept the 14yo entertained with Whale Watching (Blue Ocean Whale Watch from Moss Landing were absolutely fantastic), Amusement Parks (6 flags), Food, Alcatraz, Segway Tours, etc. Loved it
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,797

    Nigelb said:

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    Right: I've been trying to find a new patron Saint of England.

    Requirements:

    1. Needs to be a man. (Sorry: patron saints tend to be men.)
    2. Has to have been born in England.
    3. Needs a pronounceable name.

    Having scanned this list - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anglo-Saxon_saints - I'm not finding many options.

    St Bede?

    St Alfred.
    (Why be limited by Rome's narrow criteria ?)

    St Nigel?
    A splendid idea, unfortunately ruined by the odd unacceptable namesake...
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    It is entirely possible that the hard Brexit gang have gone past the point of being able to work out basic tactics like this.

    Possibly, but I think it's bluster.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,853
    If it weren't for GE17, I imagine one of the rumours would be that the May-ites were preparing to write to Graham Brady themselves responding to a back me or sack me call, the prize being a guaranteed 12 months of grace to progress Brexit to some kind of sign off.

    That this doesn't seem to be the case, even as rumour, is noteworthy in itself.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,963

    Forget changing our patron saint. I mean what better emblem for England than some Johnny Foreigner from the Middle East taking over the job of an indigenous Englishman?

    Can we instead drop the French practice of giving our monarchs numbers after their name.

    Let us go back to giving our monarchs adjectives after their names.

    So when Charles becomes King he is known as Charles/George the Adulterer.

    Charles the Weird.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Guys: thanks for the travel advice. I'm thinking Banff (albeit I went there with a girlfriend once in the distant past) might be good fun. Perhaps rent a car and drive from Calgary to Vancouver...

    If only my wife was away during ski season :(

    As @Tyndall has noted, Jasper is a fantastic centre to a zillion activities (cycling, white water rafting, canoeing , kayaking, etc).
    I'm thinking Calgary (for a night), Banff, Jasper, [somewhere], Vancouver. That should be perfect for 10 days.

    Oohhhhh... I might start off in Regina, as I have very good friends there...
    Done that drive a number of times, never fails to please. If you can I would include a trip to Vancouver island if you can.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited April 2018

    Meanwhile, Owen Jones is having another day of having a go at the "elite" media:

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/988344431270088704

    Some of the replies are, how shall we put it, interesting.

    You know me, certainly not one of Owen Jones's biggest fans but the state of replies, by journalists, to his earlier perfectly factual tweeting about the composition of the media has been utterly mind boggling.

    And kind of suggests that journalists have no idea of what groupthink is and how it happens.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Morning all,

    On topic: I haven't had time to read all the comments, so perhaps this point has been made already, but isn't there a rather glaring flaw in the alleged cunning plan of the Brexiteers to put pressure on Mrs May on this issue and install someone more amenable to their position? As George Osborne was fond of saying, the first rule of politics is to look at the numbers - the numbers of votes. Ditching Theresa May and Phil Hammond, and replacing them with Jacob Rees-Mogg and John Redwood, even if that were possible, would not make one iota of difference to the parliamentary numbers in favour of remaining in the Customs Union. If it triggered an election, it would very probably make the numbers even higher.

    So this is a gun pointed at the über-Brexiteers' own feet; Theresa May is their best hope.

    I think the logic is that a determined Prime Minister can defy the Commons on its wish for a customs union because the legislature does not have the mechanism to force its preferred negotiating stance on the executive and when it comes to it the Commons will not vote down an agreed deal that excludes a customs union, even if it would prefer one with a customs union.

    As it happens, I think the über-Brexiteers might be right on this.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,797
    Shouldn't that be captioned 'Suspects seen fleeing pie factory raid' ?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Alistair said:

    Meanwhile, Owen Jones is having another day of having a go at the "elite" media:

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/988344431270088704

    Some of the replies are, how shall we put it, interesting.

    You know me, certainly not one of Owen Jones's biggest fans but the state of replies to his earlier perfectly factual tweeting about the composition of the media by journalists has been utterly mind boggling.

    And kind of suggests that journalists have no idea of what groupthink is and how it happens.
    The whole farrago has been a lowpoint for the mainstream media.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    rcs1000 said:

    Guys: thanks for the travel advice. I'm thinking Banff (albeit I went there with a girlfriend once in the distant past) might be good fun. Perhaps rent a car and drive from Calgary to Vancouver...

    If only my wife was away during ski season :(

    How about Yosemite - camping, cycling, walking. My kids loved it at the same age.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Morning all,

    On topic: I haven't had time to read all the comments, so perhaps this point has been made already, but isn't there a rather glaring flaw in the alleged cunning plan of the Brexiteers to put pressure on Mrs May on this issue and install someone more amenable to their position? As George Osborne was fond of saying, the first rule of politics is to look at the numbers - the numbers of votes. Ditching Theresa May and Phil Hammond, and replacing them with Jacob Rees-Mogg and John Redwood, even if that were possible, would not make one iota of difference to the parliamentary numbers in favour of remaining in the Customs Union. If it triggered an election, it would very probably make the numbers even higher.

    So this is a gun pointed at the über-Brexiteers' own feet; Theresa May is their best hope.

    I think the logic is that a determined Prime Minister can defy the Commons on its wish for a customs union because the legislature does not have the mechanism to force its preferred negotiating stance on the executive and when it comes to it the Commons will not vote down an agreed deal that excludes a customs union, even if it would prefer one with a customs union.

    As it happens, I think the über-Brexiteers might be right on this.
    They are right on that, but Theresa May is their best hope in that respect. The risk is that the issue will be lost on the floor of the House, and the best way of avoiding that is the kind of fudge she's doing. If they make the issue unavoidably black-and-white, they'll lose.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    rcs1000 said:

    Right: I've been trying to find a new patron Saint of England.

    Requirements:

    1. Needs to be a man. (Sorry: patron saints tend to be men.)
    2. Has to have been born in England.
    3. Needs a pronounceable name.

    Having scanned this list - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anglo-Saxon_saints - I'm not finding many options.

    St Bede?

    Saint Pillock.

    Youngest son of King Sebert of the East Saxons. Lived for many years as a hermit in Epping Forest. Patron Saint of donkeys. Martyred with a curling tong.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited April 2018

    rcs1000 said:

    Guys: thanks for the travel advice. I'm thinking Banff (albeit I went there with a girlfriend once in the distant past) might be good fun. Perhaps rent a car and drive from Calgary to Vancouver...

    If only my wife was away during ski season :(

    How about Yosemite - camping, cycling, walking. My kids loved it at the same age.
    Yosemite -> Lake Tahoe -> giant redwoods -> Pacific coast highway is a nice loop.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Morning all,

    On topic: I haven't had time to read all the comments, so perhaps this point has been made already, but isn't there a rather glaring flaw in the alleged cunning plan of the Brexiteers to put pressure on Mrs May on this issue and install someone more amenable to their position? As George Osborne was fond of saying, the first rule of politics is to look at the numbers - the numbers of votes. Ditching Theresa May and Phil Hammond, and replacing them with Jacob Rees-Mogg and John Redwood, even if that were possible, would not make one iota of difference to the parliamentary numbers in favour of remaining in the Customs Union. If it triggered an election, it would very probably make the numbers even higher.

    So this is a gun pointed at the über-Brexiteers' own feet; Theresa May is their best hope.

    I think the logic is that a determined Prime Minister can defy the Commons on its wish for a customs union because the legislature does not have the mechanism to force its preferred negotiating stance on the executive and when it comes to it the Commons will not vote down an agreed deal that excludes a customs union, even if it would prefer one with a customs union.

    As it happens, I think the über-Brexiteers might be right on this.
    They are right on that, but Theresa May is their best hope in that respect. The risk is that the issue will be lost on the floor of the House, and the best way of avoiding that is the kind of fudge she's doing. If they make the issue unavoidably black-and-white, they'll lose.
    I don't see that. The Commons votes for a customs union. The unquiet shade of Margaret Thatcher possesses the occupant of Downing Street, cries "No, No, No" and negotiates a deal without a customs union. Pro-customs union Conservative MPs are going to have to be very bold indeed to take any practical action to censure the PM in those circumstances.

    The snag, in my view, is that it's not at all clear what a deal without a customs union would look like or whether it is available. If Britain heads for no deal, what then? Some members of the ERG might be OK with that, but I'd have thought at that point all bets were off.
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Labour's candidate for Worcester generated one hell of a defendants' list:

    Investigatory Powers Tribunal
    Undercover Policing Inquiry
    Metropolitan Police
    MI5
    MI6
    Hackney Council
    The Army
    Progress
    Royal Mail
    Peabody
    Department of Health
    Mildmay Practice
    Homerton Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
    Whittington Hospital NHS Trust
    University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
    Guys and St Thomas' Hospital Foundation Trust
    Kings College Hospital Trust
    Royal Free NHS Foundation Trust
    Virgin Media
    UK Power Network Ltd
    Npower
    Thames Water Utilities Ltd

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2017/560.html
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited April 2018
    Patron saint of England proposal.

    St Wulfstan (died 1095)

    - One of the miracles attributed to Wulfstan was the curing of King Harold's daughter.

    - After the Norman conquest of England, Wulfstan was the only English-born bishop to retain his diocese for any significant time after the Conquest.

    - Wulfstan was consecrated Bishop of Worcester on 8 September 1062, by Ealdred

    - Wulfstan was a confidant of Harold Godwinson, who helped secure the bishopric for him

    - A social reformer, Wulfstan struggled to bridge the gap between the old and new regimes, and to alleviate the suffering of the poor.

    - He was a strong opponent of the slave trade, and together with Lanfranc, was mainly responsible for ending the trade from Bristol

    - After the Norman Conquest, he claimed that the Oswaldslow, a "triple hundred" administered by the bishops of Worcester, was free of interference by the local sheriff. This right to exclude the sheriff was recorded in the Domesday Book in 1086

    - In 1075, Wulfstan and the Worcestershire levy put down the rebellion known as 'The Bridal of Norwich' against William the Conqueror

    - At Easter of 1158, Henry II and his wife Eleanor of Aquitaine visited Worcester Cathedral and placed their crowns on the shrine of Wulfstan, vowing not to wear them again.

    Declaration of interest - I was in the St Wulfstan Scouts.


  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,919
    Scott_P said:
    Not sure it's wise/appropriate to portray TM as a dog?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,261
    Alistair said:

    Meanwhile, Owen Jones is having another day of having a go at the "elite" media:

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/988344431270088704

    Some of the replies are, how shall we put it, interesting.

    You know me, certainly not one of Owen Jones's biggest fans but the state of replies, by journalists, to his earlier perfectly factual tweeting about the composition of the media has been utterly mind boggling.

    And kind of suggests that journalists have no idea of what groupthink is and how it happens.
    Extrapolating from my experience of Scottish hackery, I don't think one could find a more thin skinned bunch angrily averse to criticism than journos, ready to circle the wagons at any perceived criticism of the bros (and it's almost always bros). The hacks' union is the most defensive closed shop there is.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Ladbrokes were offering 10/1 against the royal baby popping out on St George's Day.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited April 2018
    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:
    Not sure it's wise/appropriate to portray TM as a dog?
    Or to portray the future PM as the tail wagging her.
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    It always strikes me that we miss a trick with St George's day given that

    a) its also William Shakespeare birth and death day
    b) it is celebrated globally
    c) in catalonia, it is celebrated with books and flowers
    d) the english language, and english literature, is actually something to celebrate

    There is room here to celebrate something that is quintessentially English but also avoids many, many bad stereotypes.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,384

    Labour's candidate for Worcester generated one hell of a defendants' list:

    Investigatory Powers Tribunal
    Undercover Policing Inquiry
    Metropolitan Police
    MI5
    MI6
    Hackney Council
    The Army
    Progress
    Royal Mail
    Peabody
    Department of Health
    Mildmay Practice
    Homerton Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
    Whittington Hospital NHS Trust
    University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
    Guys and St Thomas' Hospital Foundation Trust
    Kings College Hospital Trust
    Royal Free NHS Foundation Trust
    Virgin Media
    UK Power Network Ltd
    Npower
    Thames Water Utilities Ltd

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2017/560.html

    Wow...

    I like this line: "It is not easy to summarise the nature of the Claimant's claims."
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    It always strikes me that we miss a trick with St George's day given that

    a) its also William Shakespeare birth and death day
    b) it is celebrated globally
    c) in catalonia, it is celebrated with books and flowers
    d) the english language, and english literature, is actually something to celebrate

    There is room here to celebrate something that is quintessentially English but also avoids many, many bad stereotypes.

    First day of the asparagus season (although they have been harvesting in the Vale for weeks)
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Aren't these the options that EU have rejected?

    Yes
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,384

    Morning all,

    On topic: I haven't had time to read all the comments, so perhaps this point has been made already, but isn't there a rather glaring flaw in the alleged cunning plan of the Brexiteers to put pressure on Mrs May on this issue and install someone more amenable to their position? As George Osborne was fond of saying, the first rule of politics is to look at the numbers - the numbers of votes. Ditching Theresa May and Phil Hammond, and replacing them with Jacob Rees-Mogg and John Redwood, even if that were possible, would not make one iota of difference to the parliamentary numbers in favour of remaining in the Customs Union. If it triggered an election, it would very probably make the numbers even higher.

    So this is a gun pointed at the über-Brexiteers' own feet; Theresa May is their best hope.

    I think the logic is that a determined Prime Minister can defy the Commons on its wish for a customs union because the legislature does not have the mechanism to force its preferred negotiating stance on the executive and when it comes to it the Commons will not vote down an agreed deal that excludes a customs union, even if it would prefer one with a customs union.

    As it happens, I think the über-Brexiteers might be right on this.
    They are right on that, but Theresa May is their best hope in that respect. The risk is that the issue will be lost on the floor of the House, and the best way of avoiding that is the kind of fudge she's doing. If they make the issue unavoidably black-and-white, they'll lose.
    I don't see that. The Commons votes for a customs union. The unquiet shade of Margaret Thatcher possesses the occupant of Downing Street, cries "No, No, No" and negotiates a deal without a customs union. Pro-customs union Conservative MPs are going to have to be very bold indeed to take any practical action to censure the PM in those circumstances.

    The snag, in my view, is that it's not at all clear what a deal without a customs union would look like or whether it is available. If Britain heads for no deal, what then? Some members of the ERG might be OK with that, but I'd have thought at that point all bets were off.
    A deal without a customs union, means NI becomes the central issue.

    We really are going around in circles. Which may be May's basic game plan.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    We really are going around in circles. Which may be May's basic game plan.

    It’s time for May to stop marching in circles

    Stalling is her preferred tactic but the prime minister must go on the attack before her enemies have her surrounded


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-for-may-to-stop-marching-in-circles-x3kd3cgt6
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    Yes. But apparently if we keep howling at the moon long enough they and the Irish will change their minds at the last minute.

    In reality if we maintain this nonsense whatever deal they concoct with the EU - if they manage that in the moon-howling circumstance - will be vetoed by Ireland and we face crashing out.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    In the long term, the biggest news of the day might well be Martin Lewis's defamation suit against Facebook. If he succeeds, it could change a lot of online life.

    I can well understand why he would be incredibly hacked off about this.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Labour's candidate for Worcester generated one hell of a defendants' list:

    Investigatory Powers Tribunal
    Undercover Policing Inquiry
    Metropolitan Police
    MI5
    MI6
    Hackney Council
    The Army
    Progress
    Royal Mail
    Peabody
    Department of Health
    Mildmay Practice
    Homerton Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
    Whittington Hospital NHS Trust
    University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
    Guys and St Thomas' Hospital Foundation Trust
    Kings College Hospital Trust
    Royal Free NHS Foundation Trust
    Virgin Media
    UK Power Network Ltd
    Npower
    Thames Water Utilities Ltd

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2017/560.html

    Wow...

    I like this line: "It is not easy to summarise the nature of the Claimant's claims."
    Wow... she doesn't need a lawyer, she needs a doctor (although apparent doctors of the GP sort told her there was nothing wrong with her)
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    In the long term, the biggest news of the day might well be Martin Lewis's defamation suit against Facebook. If he succeeds, it could change a lot of online life.

    I can well understand why he would be incredibly hacked off about this.

    It is possible, or indeed likely, that although FB held no general duty of care to third parties to ensure that their likeness was not being used without the third party's consent, it may be bound by one where the third party has taken the steps Martin Lewis has to bring this to facebook's attention. Whether FB has discharged such a duty I don't know.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Scott_P said:

    We really are going around in circles. Which may be May's basic game plan.

    It’s time for May to stop marching in circles

    Stalling is her preferred tactic but the prime minister must go on the attack before her enemies have her surrounded


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-for-may-to-stop-marching-in-circles-x3kd3cgt6
    I don't know about that. Stalling until the reality of the situation forces the loons to compromise remains a pretty good plan.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    In the long term, the biggest news of the day might well be Martin Lewis's defamation suit against Facebook. If he succeeds, it could change a lot of online life.

    I can well understand why he would be incredibly hacked off about this.

    It's grimly amusing that the Guardian & SkyNews pieces on this came complete with the same fake ads.
    https://twitter.com/Eloi_Casali/status/988302859958710273
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001

    In the long term, the biggest news of the day might well be Martin Lewis's defamation suit against Facebook. If he succeeds, it could change a lot of online life.

    I can well understand why he would be incredibly hacked off about this.

    I hope he wins, there is a similiar ad with the 'Dragons' promoting a bitcoin exchange.
    The binary options advert with Boris Becker is the only one I think is a genuine promotion, but he's gone bankrupt - so the financial advice from him is surely to win Wimbledon titles rather than 'invest' in the manner he is promoting..
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    Hodge says she feels a 'bit of fear' about anti-Semitism in Labour - and that she gets MORE abuse now than when running against the BNP

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/uncategorized/6118388/labour-veteran-margaret-hodge-no-longer-feels-at-home-in-party-thanks-to-anti-semitism/
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    edited April 2018

    In the long term, the biggest news of the day might well be Martin Lewis's defamation suit against Facebook. If he succeeds, it could change a lot of online life.

    I can well understand why he would be incredibly hacked off about this.

    It is possible, or indeed likely, that although FB held no general duty of care to third parties to ensure that their likeness was not being used without the third party's consent, it may be bound by one where the third party has taken the steps Martin Lewis has to bring this to facebook's attention. Whether FB has discharged such a duty I don't know.
    Internet ads on even 'AAA' sites have gotten out of hand. I always find the 'This woman from XXXX location near you are driving doctor angry' etc etc to be most amusing....

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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,384
    edited April 2018
    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/988366929462259714

    More prep for if Corbyn fails to get to No. 10. The media will be blamed...
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001

    In the long term, the biggest news of the day might well be Martin Lewis's defamation suit against Facebook. If he succeeds, it could change a lot of online life.

    I can well understand why he would be incredibly hacked off about this.

    It is possible, or indeed likely, that although FB held no general duty of care to third parties to ensure that their likeness was not being used without the third party's consent, it may be bound by one where the third party has taken the steps Martin Lewis has to bring this to facebook's attention. Whether FB has discharged such a duty I don't know.
    Internet ads on even 'AAA' sites have gotten out of hand. I always find the 'This woman from XXXX location near you are driving doctor angry' etc etc to be most amusing....

    I think 'taboola' is responsible for alot of the dross.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880
    Struggling to understand the customs union to and fro.

    But as far as I can tell,

    A majority of the HoC wish to stay in the customs union.

    Therefore May will lose the vote this week, but will ignore it. She can’t afford to treat it as a no confidence issue.

    She is claiming that we *will* leave the customs union.

    But, given NI and time needed for preparation, she is likely to agree a customs union (perhaps badged differently) at least for a period of years.

    This “I-can’t-believe-it’s-not-a-customs-union” will in due course go to a meaningful vote which the ERG would be daft to vote against.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,318
    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:

    We really are going around in circles. Which may be May's basic game plan.

    It’s time for May to stop marching in circles

    Stalling is her preferred tactic but the prime minister must go on the attack before her enemies have her surrounded


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-for-may-to-stop-marching-in-circles-x3kd3cgt6
    I don't know about that. Stalling until the reality of the situation forces the loons to compromise remains a pretty good plan.
    ...but the loons don't want to compromise! Redwood, IDS, Rees-Mogg and Co. will only accept 'fire and brimstone ' Brexit.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The idea that the Windrush affair was just some officials having gone rogue is now untenable:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/22/government-aware-for-years-that-hostile-environment-hurt-windrush-generation
  • Options

    In the long term, the biggest news of the day might well be Martin Lewis's defamation suit against Facebook. If he succeeds, it could change a lot of online life.

    I can well understand why he would be incredibly hacked off about this.

    It's grimly amusing that the Guardian & SkyNews pieces on this came complete with the same fake ads.
    https://twitter.com/Eloi_Casali/status/988302859958710273
    That ad is an outrage, shameful misuse of an apostrophe.

    The less said about the targeted ads I receive the better.
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    TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    Struggling to understand the customs union to and fro.

    But as far as I can tell,

    A majority of the HoC wish to stay in the customs union.

    Therefore May will lose the vote this week, but will ignore it. She can’t afford to treat it as a no confidence issue.

    She is claiming that we *will* leave the customs union.

    But, given NI and time needed for preparation, she is likely to agree a customs union (perhaps badged differently) at least for a period of years.

    This “I-can’t-believe-it’s-not-a-customs-union” will in due course go to a meaningful vote which the ERG would be daft to vote against.

    The problem with the CU is that it doesn't solve the NI issue at all, and it means that EU trade agreements need to be applied in the UK but in one direction only. It means that any EU deal creates an inbound tariff to the UK of 0%, but does not reciprocate (because the deal is not signed with us). This is a non starter.

    Better for us to go EEA route - and deal with immigration issues via art 112/113 via the EFTA court. This creates the 0% tariff on goods (though agriculture is excepted) and creates the initial level playing field which removes standards checks.

    Better to spend a little time dealing with Customs issues now, and standards later (if we eventually leave the EEA).
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    In the long term, the biggest news of the day might well be Martin Lewis's defamation suit against Facebook. If he succeeds, it could change a lot of online life.

    I can well understand why he would be incredibly hacked off about this.

    It's grimly amusing that the Guardian & SkyNews pieces on this came complete with the same fake ads.
    https://twitter.com/Eloi_Casali/status/988302859958710273
    That ad is an outrage, shameful misuse of an apostrophe.

    The less said about the targeted ads I receive the better.
    Mine are all about GDPR at the moment.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,905
    edited April 2018

    Struggling to understand the customs union to and fro.

    But as far as I can tell,

    A majority of the HoC wish to stay in the customs union.

    I would say the majority in the Commons wants to stay in "A" customs union rather than "THE" customs union.

    Somewhere between "the" and "a" is where this will end up I suspect.

    A customs "arrangement" is what TM seem's to be aiming for which is the compromise between "THE" "A" and "NO"
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:

    We really are going around in circles. Which may be May's basic game plan.

    It’s time for May to stop marching in circles

    Stalling is her preferred tactic but the prime minister must go on the attack before her enemies have her surrounded


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-for-may-to-stop-marching-in-circles-x3kd3cgt6
    I don't know about that. Stalling until the reality of the situation forces the loons to compromise remains a pretty good plan.
    ...but the loons don't want to compromise! Redwood, IDS, Rees-Mogg and Co. will only accept 'fire and brimstone ' Brexit.
    I'd hope they become increasingly marginalised. I suppose you're always going to have a number of ultras, but if their hangers-on can be peeled away and reintroduced to sanity then their influence will evaporate.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,136
    GIN1138 said:

    Somewhere between "the" and "a" is where this will end up I suspect.

    The indecisive article?
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    If hardliner Brexit Tories ensure the fall of the government and make Corbyn PM they'll be marked for eternity for their betrayal like Cain, Judas, and Mark Reckless.

    These traitors need to be forced out of the Tory party.
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    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited April 2018
    GIN1138 said:

    Struggling to understand the customs union to and fro.

    But as far as I can tell,

    A majority of the HoC wish to stay in the customs union.

    I would say the majority in the Commons wants to stay in "A" customs union rather than "THE" customs union.

    Somewhere between "the" and "a" is where this will end up I suspect.

    A customs "arrangement" is what TM seem's to be aiming for which in the compromise between "THE" "A" and "NO"
    She presumably wants an arrangement which allows us to negotiate our own trade deals and set our own trade policy but avoid a hard border in NI.

    NI/GBand the Irish Free state/Republic of course had both customs controls and free movement from 1923 to 1992 until the EU was created. My fathers car and boot was regularly inspected on either side of the ferry crossing in Wales and Ireland by the police/Garda but no one ever asked to see a passport for any of us. Seemed to work just fine - but those were simpler times.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Labour's candidate for Worcester generated one hell of a defendants' list:

    Investigatory Powers Tribunal
    Undercover Policing Inquiry
    Metropolitan Police
    MI5
    MI6
    Hackney Council
    The Army
    Progress
    Royal Mail
    Peabody
    Department of Health
    Mildmay Practice
    Homerton Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
    Whittington Hospital NHS Trust
    University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
    Guys and St Thomas' Hospital Foundation Trust
    Kings College Hospital Trust
    Royal Free NHS Foundation Trust
    Virgin Media
    UK Power Network Ltd
    Npower
    Thames Water Utilities Ltd

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2017/560.html

    If only she'd realised it all went back to an address on the Finchley Road, she'd have been able to put all the pieces together.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,136
    Turkey now sabre rattling against NATO 'allies'.
    https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/status/988367727801831424
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    In the long term, the biggest news of the day might well be Martin Lewis's defamation suit against Facebook. If he succeeds, it could change a lot of online life.

    I can well understand why he would be incredibly hacked off about this.

    It is possible, or indeed likely, that although FB held no general duty of care to third parties to ensure that their likeness was not being used without the third party's consent, it may be bound by one where the third party has taken the steps Martin Lewis has to bring this to facebook's attention. Whether FB has discharged such a duty I don't know.
    Facebook have some swanky facial recognition algorithms, do they not? So perhaps they should use them...
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,905
    edited April 2018

    If hardliner Brexit Tories ensure the fall of the government and make Corbyn PM they'll be marked for eternity for their betrayal like Cain, Judas, and Mark Reckless.

    These traitors need to be forced out of the Tory party.

    The same argument could be applied to "hardliner" Remainers no?

    In fact hasn't Hezza already mused that a Corbyn government would be a price worth paying for overturning the referendum and staying in the EU?

    As far as I'm aware no Brexiteer has gone that far yet...
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    In the long term, the biggest news of the day might well be Martin Lewis's defamation suit against Facebook. If he succeeds, it could change a lot of online life.

    I can well understand why he would be incredibly hacked off about this.

    It's grimly amusing that the Guardian & SkyNews pieces on this came complete with the same fake ads.
    https://twitter.com/Eloi_Casali/status/988302859958710273
    That ad is an outrage, shameful misuse of an apostrophe.

    The less said about the targeted ads I receive the better.
    Mine are all about GDPR at the moment.
    My ads went wrong when auto-correct turned a google search for 'MiFID II Analysis' into a search for 'MILF Anal'

    Had a very awkward chat that day with HR and IT.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Labour's candidate for Worcester generated one hell of a defendants' list:

    Investigatory Powers Tribunal
    Undercover Policing Inquiry
    Metropolitan Police
    MI5
    MI6
    Hackney Council
    The Army
    Progress
    Royal Mail
    Peabody
    Department of Health
    Mildmay Practice
    Homerton Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
    Whittington Hospital NHS Trust
    University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
    Guys and St Thomas' Hospital Foundation Trust
    Kings College Hospital Trust
    Royal Free NHS Foundation Trust
    Virgin Media
    UK Power Network Ltd
    Npower
    Thames Water Utilities Ltd

    http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2017/560.html

    If only she'd realised it all went back to an address on the Finchley Road, she'd have been able to put all the pieces together.
    Finchley Road is one of two vast conspiracies that I have apparently participated in despite no one ever telling me about it. At least in the other one I was named personally.
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    If hardliner Brexit Tories ensure the fall of the government and make Corbyn PM they'll be marked for eternity for their betrayal like Cain, Judas, and Mark Reckless.

    These traitors need to be forced out of the Tory party.

    I'm not sure that my lot would be any more united should that happen and we ended up in government. Brexit is quickly becoming the Kobayashi Maru of British politics, nobody wins, everybody loses.

    If ever we needed a national government it is now. Problem is that both party leaders are held hostage by their respective lunatic asylums which makes any kind of compromise on any subject pretty much impossible.

    We are heading for the cliff edge...
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    My ads went wrong when auto-correct turned a google search for 'MiFID II Analysis' into a search for 'MILF Anal'

    Had a very awkward chat that day with HR and IT.

    Fair play for coming up with that excuse. Very clever.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Finchley Road is one of two vast conspiracies that I have apparently participated in despite no one ever telling me about it.

    Hah! Proof, if any were needed, of just how clever the conspiracy is.
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    Anyone know how much progress the disgraced Liam Fox has made on securing new trade deals for the UK?

    If he looks like delivering the square root of bugger all then remaining in the customs union maybe the only option for the UK.
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    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    The idea that the Windrush affair was just some officials having gone rogue is now untenable:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/22/government-aware-for-years-that-hostile-environment-hurt-windrush-generation

    The problem was the lack of prosper record keeping and paperwork - which created the problem when the rules changed for post 1973 entrants. It is perhaps more illustrative of our slapdash and poor system - which mean we are unable to prove who is legally entitled to be here and who is not.

    Most other European nations wouldn't have this issue as they require National ID cards or registration and require those to access services. If we had provided this to everyone on arrival and continued the systems moving forward it would never have happened.

    It illustrates the general chaos of our immigration system.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,905

    Anyone know how much progress the disgraced Liam Fox has made on securing new trade deals for the UK?


    Haven't Canada and Australia been making some very encouraging signals recently?
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,323

    Anyone know how much progress the disgraced Liam Fox has made on securing new trade deals for the UK?

    If he looks like delivering the square root of bugger all then remaining in the customs union maybe the only option for the UK.

    I thought the pens were poised to sign ones with Australia, New Zealand and Ghana.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Forget changing our patron saint. I mean what better emblem for England than some Johnny Foreigner from the Middle East taking over the job of an indigenous Englishman?

    Can we instead drop the French practice of giving our monarchs numbers after their name.

    Let us go back to giving our monarchs adjectives after their names.

    So when Charles becomes King he is known as Charles/George the Adulterer.

    Wouldn’t distinguish him from the others

    (My cousins have the same tradition - Sir Derek the Dragon-Slayer has a particularly good name...)
    Sounds like your cousins are a lot of fun.

    Say no to Edward I and yes to Edward The Hammer of the Scrotum Scots.
    This was back in the war, so we only had a skeleton staff in the House. During lunch one day, Derek noticed there was a rat climbing up on of the crests so took a pot shot with his hunting rifle.

    Unfortunately he missed... but shot the ear off the dragon supporting the crest...
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,136

    Anyone know how much progress the disgraced Liam Fox has made on securing new trade deals for the UK?

    If he looks like delivering the square root of bugger all then remaining in the customs union maybe the only option for the UK.

    He's wondering why every country wants him to meet Oscar Trot who he can never get hold of.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,058

    If hardliner Brexit Tories ensure the fall of the government and make Corbyn PM they'll be marked for eternity for their betrayal like Cain, Judas, and Mark Reckless.

    These traitors need to be forced out of the Tory party.

    I'm not sure that my lot would be any more united should that happen and we ended up in government. Brexit is quickly becoming the Kobayashi Maru of British politics, nobody wins, everybody loses.

    If ever we needed a national government it is now. Problem is that both party leaders are held hostage by their respective lunatic asylums which makes any kind of compromise on any subject pretty much impossible.

    We are heading for the cliff edge...
    I fear, Mr P, that you are right.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,323
    GIN1138 said:

    Anyone know how much progress the disgraced Liam Fox has made on securing new trade deals for the UK?


    Haven't Canada and Australia been making some very encouraging signals recently?
    Wow. Liam has actually secured trade agreements with around seventy countries.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43581729

    Does the guy ever sleep?
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880

    Anyone know how much progress the disgraced Liam Fox has made on securing new trade deals for the UK?

    If he looks like delivering the square root of bugger all then remaining in the customs union maybe the only option for the UK.

    I thought the pens were poised to sign ones with Australia, New Zealand and Ghana.
    I believe Tanganyika is willing to sign one in exchange for groundnut investment.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Anyone know how much progress the disgraced Liam Fox has made on securing new trade deals for the UK?

    If he looks like delivering the square root of bugger all then remaining in the customs union maybe the only option for the UK.

    I thought the pens were poised to sign ones with Australia, New Zealand and Ghana.
    I believe Tanganyika is willing to sign one in exchange for groundnut investment.
    That would require a Labour government.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,821

    If hardliner Brexit Tories ensure the fall of the government and make Corbyn PM they'll be marked for eternity for their betrayal like Cain, Judas, and Mark Reckless.

    These traitors need to be forced out of the Tory party.

    I'm not sure that my lot would be any more united should that happen and we ended up in government. Brexit is quickly becoming the Kobayashi Maru of British politics, nobody wins, everybody loses.

    If ever we needed a national government it is now. Problem is that both party leaders are held hostage by their respective lunatic asylums which makes any kind of compromise on any subject pretty much impossible.

    We are heading for the cliff edge...
    All part of the cunning plan for Customs Union, when being a vassal state appears better than the cliff edge. :)
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    Anyone know how much progress the disgraced Liam Fox has made on securing new trade deals for the UK?

    If he looks like delivering the square root of bugger all then remaining in the customs union maybe the only option for the UK.

    I thought the pens were poised to sign ones with Australia, New Zealand and Ghana.
    How much trade do with those three countries compared to how much we do with the rest of the EU?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    Time for them to rethink then....
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    If hardliner Brexit Tories ensure the fall of the government and make Corbyn PM they'll be marked for eternity for their betrayal like Cain, Judas, and Mark Reckless.

    These traitors need to be forced out of the Tory party.

    By the time you and Max have finished rooting out the diverse infidels, there won’t be a Tory party (on whose behalf some of us in the poor bloody infantry - county council platoon - are out most days for May 3rd). Harrumph.
This discussion has been closed.