Grammar school closures halted under Thatcher's premiership, leaving hundreds still in place, most still there today. Her anointed successor John Major then promised 'a grammar school in every town'
You haven't answered my question.
How many new grammar schools did Mrs Thatcher open as PM?
I did not think she opened any.
Indeed, that's why in reality she was anti-grammar school as Education Secretary and PM.
All good Tories oppose grammar schools.
Margaret Thatcher, David Cameron, and myself.
"People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn." - M. H. Thatcher, speech to Conservative Party Conference, 14 October 1977.
Very sobering stuff on Brexit from UK car people in the Commons this afternoon. Put simply, No Deal kills the industry off over here to a very large extent.
Just as well the government is going for a Canada+ FTA then which will be fine for the car industry in the long term
The long term is too late. That was precisely the point they were making.
There will be a transition period first but the FTA negotiated with the EU once the exit bill has been agreed will protect the car industry, the financial services industry a bit less so
There will be a transition period if the EU agrees to one. There will not be a transition deal unless the UK government agrees to the terms the EU sets. What the auto industry reps made clear is that No Deal basically destroys the sector in the UK.
So? Even May has agreed a 2 year transition period with full free movement and ECJ jurisdiction. Diehard Remainers like you are as bad as diehard hard Brexiteers on this
Grammar school closures halted under Thatcher's premiership, leaving hundreds still in place, most still there today. Her anointed successor John Major then promised 'a grammar school in every town'
You haven't answered my question.
How many new grammar schools did Mrs Thatcher open as PM?
I did not think she opened any.
Indeed, that's why in reality she was anti-grammar school as Education Secretary and PM.
All good Tories oppose grammar schools.
Margaret Thatcher, David Cameron, and myself.
She was not anti grammar school it was Heath who was PM and said council closures of grammars should not be vetoed, as PM Thatcher ended that and kept existing grammars open.
You want to close all grammars, even Cameron opposed that
If she was pro-grammar she would have opened new grammar schools, reversing her tenure as Education Secretary.
She was pro grammar as she saved the remaining grammars from closure
I'm in the process of moving at the moment. I think the vote was analogous to exchange, and the exit will be a completion. The fact the country didn't do the proper surveys before exchange doesn't change the fact we have...
Yup, the Leave vote, replete with leaving the customs union and single market as proposed by Gove and Johnson, must be honoured.
A few years outside the EU will settle the matter forever.
People will be able to judge how good or bad the EU was.
A genuine question - do you really think that if the MP's derail exit the voters will thank them and go away
Depends on the situation, if it is clear we're headed for car crash hard Brexit, they may do so.
In that situation you'd need consistent 20% leads in the polls for that PLUS a prominent Leaver advocating it.
Cummings promise and not May's. Sovereignty and ending free movement were the main reasons for voting Leave in the polls and will be delivered with a FTA
Grammar school closures halted under Thatcher's premiership, leaving hundreds still in place, most still there today. Her anointed successor John Major then promised 'a grammar school in every town'
You haven't answered my question.
How many new grammar schools did Mrs Thatcher open as PM?
I did not think she opened any.
Indeed, that's why in reality she was anti-grammar school as Education Secretary and PM.
All good Tories oppose grammar schools.
Margaret Thatcher, David Cameron, and myself.
"People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn." - M. H. Thatcher, speech to Conservative Party Conference, 14 October 1977.
This will come as a shock, but no-one finds you as influential as you clearly do.....
I have never claimed any influence, but my legion of fans seem to think otherwise
Does anyone's individual vote ever influence the result? No. Is it nonetheless the case that by not casting it you lose the right to moan? Yes. And if you want to moan like a dockside hooker, the question of what you actually did in the war, daddy, beyond casting your own vote, becomes legit.
Well, there was that vet in NE Fife who forced herself to vote at the end of a very long day.....
Grammar school closures halted under Thatcher's premiership, leaving hundreds still in place, most still there today. Her anointed successor John Major then promised 'a grammar school in every town'
You haven't answered my question.
How many new grammar schools did Mrs Thatcher open as PM?
I did not think she opened any.
Indeed, that's why in reality she was anti-grammar school as Education Secretary and PM.
All good Tories oppose grammar schools.
Margaret Thatcher, David Cameron, and myself.
It might be the Irish Republican in me, but I find myself becoming less enamoured of "Privilege by Birth" which many seem to admire and aspire to
Grammar school closures halted under Thatcher's premiership, leaving hundreds still in place, most still there today. Her anointed successor John Major then promised 'a grammar school in every town'
You haven't answered my question.
How many new grammar schools did Mrs Thatcher open as PM?
I did not think she opened any.
Indeed, that's why in reality she was anti-grammar school as Education Secretary and PM.
All good Tories oppose grammar schools.
Margaret Thatcher, David Cameron, and myself.
"People from my sort of background needed Grammar schools to compete with children from privileged homes like Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn." - M. H. Thatcher, speech to Conservative Party Conference, 14 October 1977.
She talked the talk, but didn't walk the walk.
You are Shirley Williams and Tony Benn
Nah, I'm a working class Northern kid that did alright.
I'm in the process of moving at the moment. I think the vote was analogous to exchange, and the exit will be a completion. The fact the country didn't do the proper surveys before exchange doesn't change the fact we have...
Yup, the Leave vote, replete with leaving the customs union and single market as proposed by Gove and Johnson, must be honoured.
A few years outside the EU will settle the matter forever.
People will be able to judge how good or bad the EU was.
A genuine question - do you really think that if the MP's derail exit the voters will thank them and go away
I'm in the process of moving at the moment. I think the vote was analogous to exchange, and the exit will be a completion. The fact the country didn't do the proper surveys before exchange doesn't change the fact we have...
Yup, the Leave vote, replete with leaving the customs union and single market as proposed by Gove and Johnson, must be honoured.
A few years outside the EU will settle the matter forever.
People will be able to judge how good or bad the EU was.
We all know how this will end sadly.
As I keep saying, the referendum was fought on a pack of lies and a tide of bigotry. An alliance of xenophobes, Little Englanders and thickos swung the campaign decisively.
We have to honour the vote (whatever my personal view). I just feel sorry for the many who did not want this calamity to happen.
I'm in the process of moving at the moment. I think the vote was analogous to exchange, and the exit will be a completion. The fact the country didn't do the proper surveys before exchange doesn't change the fact we have...
Yup, the Leave vote, replete with leaving the customs union and single market as proposed by Gove and Johnson, must be honoured.
A few years outside the EU will settle the matter forever.
People will be able to judge how good or bad the EU was.
A genuine question - do you really think that if the MP's derail exit the voters will thank them and go away
Depends on the situation, if it is clear we're headed for car crash hard Brexit, they may do so.
In that situation you'd need consistent 20% leads in the polls for that PLUS a prominent Leaver advocating it.
If Brexit was blocked then I think the British public would be in favour of exit by a large margin
Very sobering stuff on Brexit from UK car people in the Commons this afternoon. Put simply, No Deal kills the industry off over here to a very large extent.
Just as well the government is going for a Canada+ FTA then which will be fine for the car industry in the long term
The long term is too late. That was precisely the point they were making.
There will be a transition period first but the FTA negotiated with the EU once the exit bill has been agreed will protect the car industry, the financial services industry a bit less so
There will be a transition period if the EU agrees to one. There will not be a transition deal unless the UK government agrees to the terms the EU sets. What the auto industry reps made clear is that No Deal basically destroys the sector in the UK.
So? Even May has agreed a 2 year transition period with full free movement and ECJ jurisdiction. Diehard Remainers like you are as bad as diehard hard Brexiteers on this
May has agreed nothing. She has accepted that the EU will dictate the terms of a transitional deal if there is one.
I am not a Remainer. I believe we must leave. The only way things will change is for the calamity to be experienced. And it will be a calamity largely caused by this government’s complete ineptitude and total dysfunctionality.
Grammar school closures halted under Thatcher's premiership, leaving hundreds still in place, most still there today. Her anointed successor John Major then promised 'a grammar school in every town'
You haven't answered my question.
How many new grammar schools did Mrs Thatcher open as PM?
I did not think she opened any.
Indeed, that's why in reality she was anti-grammar school as Education Secretary and PM.
All good Tories oppose grammar schools.
Margaret Thatcher, David Cameron, and myself.
It might be the Irish Republican in me, but I find myself becoming less enamoured of "Privilege by Birth" which many seem to admire and aspire to
Like the public school educated toff TSE you mean?
Very sobering stuff on Brexit from UK car people in the Commons this afternoon. Put simply, No Deal kills the industry off over here to a very large extent.
Just as well the government is going for a Canada+ FTA then which will be fine for the car industry in the long term
The long term is too late. That was precisely the point they were making.
There will be a transition period first but the FTA negotiated with the EU once the exit bill has been agreed will protect the car industry, the financial services industry a bit less so
There will be a transition period if the EU agrees to one. There will not be a transition deal unless the UK government agrees to the terms the EU sets. What the auto industry reps made clear is that No Deal basically destroys the sector in the UK.
So? Even May has agreed a 2 year transition period with full free movement and ECJ jurisdiction. Diehard Remainers like you are as bad as diehard hard Brexiteers on this
May has agreed nothing. She has accepted that the EU will dictate the terms of a transitional deal if there is one.
I am not a Remainer. I believe we must leave. The only way things will change is for the calamity to be experienced. And it will be a calamity largely caused by this government’s complete ineptitude and total dysfunctionality.
A Brexit which ends free movement and has a FTA will hardly be a calamity
Mr. Meeks, there are only three alternatives. The vote passes and a deal of some sort is done, the vote fails and we leave with no deal, or there's an attempt by the Commons to either revoke Article 50 or to have a second referendum.
Do you think the last option is plausible? Because if the numbers are dicey then it'd be madness to seek to harm the UK as much as possible, and as the rebels are pro-EU it seems nigh on certain they'd prefer to Remain than Leave as hard as possible.
[If anyone is wondering about doing that so we come 'crawling back' to the EU, I'd argue that's psychologically problematic. One reason gangs have such severe trials to join is because it heightens the perceived reward by making the applicant suffer. Suffering a lot of pain and then have it be for nothing is a very difficult thing with which to deal, and very undesirable].
It's all getting very volatile. I'm unwilling to make predictions.
The damage was caused by the government failing to reach out to Remain supporters and seek to include them in their Brexit thinking. So they're looking at all options, including wild ones.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
And Mercedes and Volkswagon will force Merkel's hand. And we can have a FTA with New Zealand so we'll actually be better off. And we don't need foreign nurses. And Britons are just gagging to pick cabbages and strawberries in the rain. And I think the Leave Crystal Ball is defective. And LALALALALALA not listening EFTA NORWAY ECJ TAKE BACK CONTROL BRITISH VALUES NO FOREIGNERS EU BAD UK GOOD RULE BRITANNIA IT WAS BETTER WHEN WE HAD AN EMPIRE.
As I keep saying, the referendum was fought on a pack of lies and a tide of bigotry. An alliance of xenophobes, Little Englanders and thickos swung the campaign decisively.
We have to honour the vote (whatever my personal view). I just feel sorry for the many who did not want this calamity to happen.
I voted remain but we do need to honour the result
I do accept Farage was outrageous but to be fair many people voted to have our laws made in the UK and to control our borders and do not fit the more extreme description you make above
Very sobering stuff on Brexit from UK car people in the Commons this afternoon. Put simply, No Deal kills the industry off over here to a very large extent.
Just as well the government is going for a Canada+ FTA then which will be fine for the car industry in the long term
The long term is too late. That was precisely the point they were making.
There will be a transition period first but the FTA negotiated with the EU once the exit bill has been agreed will protect the car industry, the financial services industry a bit less so
There will be a transition period if the EU agrees to one. There will not be a transition deal unless the UK government agrees to the terms the EU sets. What the auto industry reps made clear is that No Deal basically destroys the sector in the UK.
So? Even May has agreed a 2 year transition period with full free movement and ECJ jurisdiction. Diehard Remainers like you are as bad as diehard hard Brexiteers on this
May has agreed nothing. She has accepted that the EU will dictate the terms of a transitional deal if there is one.
I am not a Remainer. I believe we must leave. The only way things will change is for the calamity to be experienced. And it will be a calamity largely caused by this government’s complete ineptitude and total dysfunctionality.
A Brexit which ends free movement and has a FTA will hardly be a calamity
Mr. Meeks, there are only three alternatives. The vote passes and a deal of some sort is done, the vote fails and we leave with no deal, or there's an attempt by the Commons to either revoke Article 50 or to have a second referendum.
Do you think the last option is plausible? Because if the numbers are dicey then it'd be madness to seek to harm the UK as much as possible, and as the rebels are pro-EU it seems nigh on certain they'd prefer to Remain than Leave as hard as possible.
[If anyone is wondering about doing that so we come 'crawling back' to the EU, I'd argue that's psychologically problematic. One reason gangs have such severe trials to join is because it heightens the perceived reward by making the applicant suffer. Suffering a lot of pain and then have it be for nothing is a very difficult thing with which to deal, and very undesirable].
It's all getting very volatile. I'm unwilling to make predictions.
The damage was caused by the government failing to reach out to Remain supporters and seek to include them in their Brexit thinking. So they're looking at all options, including wild ones.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
And Mercedes and Volkswagon will force Merkel's hand. And we can have a FTA with New Zealand so we'll actually be better off. And we don't need foreign nurses. And Britons are just gagging to pick cabbages and strawberries in the rain. And I think the Leave Crystal Ball is defective. And LALALALALALA not listening EFTA NORWAY BRITISH VALUES NO FOREIGNERS EU BAD UK GOOD RULE BRITANNIA IT WAS BETTER WHEN WE HAD AN EMPIRE.
Since when is a FTA and a points system for EU migrants so devastating? Usual whinge from diehard Remainers
I'm in the process of moving at the moment. I think the vote was analogous to exchange, and the exit will be a completion. The fact the country didn't do the proper surveys before exchange doesn't change the fact we have...
Yup, the Leave vote, replete with leaving the customs union and single market as proposed by Gove and Johnson, must be honoured.
A few years outside the EU will settle the matter forever.
People will be able to judge how good or bad the EU was.
A genuine question - do you really think that if the MP's derail exit the voters will thank them and go away
I'm in the process of moving at the moment. I think the vote was analogous to exchange, and the exit will be a completion. The fact the country didn't do the proper surveys before exchange doesn't change the fact we have...
Yup, the Leave vote, replete with leaving the customs union and single market as proposed by Gove and Johnson, must be honoured.
A few years outside the EU will settle the matter forever.
People will be able to judge how good or bad the EU was.
We all know how this will end sadly.
As I keep saying, the referendum was fought on a pack of lies and a tide of bigotry. An alliance of xenophobes, Little Englanders and thickos swung the campaign decisively.
And today's 'Lack of self awareness' award goes to....
I'm in the process of moving at the moment. I think the vote was analogous to exchange, and the exit will be a completion. The fact the country didn't do the proper surveys before exchange doesn't change the fact we have...
Yup, the Leave vote, replete with leaving the customs union and single market as proposed by Gove and Johnson, must be honoured.
A few years outside the EU will settle the matter forever.
People will be able to judge how good or bad the EU was.
A genuine question - do you really think that if the MP's derail exit the voters will thank them and go away
I'm in the process of moving at the moment. I think the vote was analogous to exchange, and the exit will be a completion. The fact the country didn't do the proper surveys before exchange doesn't change the fact we have...
Yup, the Leave vote, replete with leaving the customs union and single market as proposed by Gove and Johnson, must be honoured.
A few years outside the EU will settle the matter forever.
People will be able to judge how good or bad the EU was.
We all know how this will end sadly.
As I keep saying, the referendum was fought on a pack of lies and a tide of bigotry. An alliance of xenophobes, Little Englanders and thickos swung the campaign decisively.
And today's 'Lack of self awareness' award goes to....
Mr. Meeks, there are only three alternatives. The vote passes and a deal of some sort is done, the vote fails and we leave with no deal, or there's an attempt by the Commons to either revoke Article 50 or to have a second referendum.
Do you think the last option is plausible? Because if the numbers are dicey then it'd be madness to seek to harm the UK as much as possible, and as the rebels are pro-EU it seems nigh on certain they'd prefer to Remain than Leave as hard as possible.
[If anyone is wondering about doing that so we come 'crawling back' to the EU, I'd argue that's psychologically problematic. One reason gangs have such severe trials to join is because it heightens the perceived reward by making the applicant suffer. Suffering a lot of pain and then have it be for nothing is a very difficult thing with which to deal, and very undesirable].
It's all getting very volatile. I'm unwilling to make predictions.
The damage was caused by the government failing to reach out to Remain supporters and seek to include them in their Brexit thinking. So they're looking at all options, including wild ones.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
Did you read what I wrote? I deeply, honestly believe that Brexit will be an absolute disaster. How can I "... instead worked to help shape the implementation of it."? I cannot polish a t*rd and a pig with lipstick on it is still a pig.
And Mercedes and Volkswagon will force Merkel's hand. And we can have a FTA with New Zealand so we'll actually be better off. And we don't need foreign nurses. And Britons are just gagging to pick cabbages and strawberries in the rain. And I think the Leave Crystal Ball is defective. And LALALALALALA not listening EFTA NORWAY BRITISH VALUES NO FOREIGNERS EU BAD UK GOOD RULE BRITANNIA IT WAS BETTER WHEN WE HAD AN EMPIRE.
Since when is a FTA and a points system for EU migrants so devastating? Usual whinge from diehard Remainers
You've said we're getting a Free Trade Agreement about 50 times today alone.
I know this is just shouting into the void, but I'll try: Repeating a thing, especially a thing with no evidence to support it (but plenty to undermine it), just because you want it to be true, will not make it true.
Mr. Meeks, there are only three alternatives. The vote passes and a deal of some sort is done, the vote fails and we leave with no deal, or there's an attempt by the Commons to either revoke Article 50 or to have a second referendum.
Do you think the last option is plausible? Because if the numbers are dicey then it'd be madness to seek to harm the UK as much as possible, and as the rebels are pro-EU it seems nigh on certain they'd prefer to Remain than Leave as hard as possible.
[If anyone is wondering about doing that so we come 'crawling back' to the EU, I'd argue that's psychologically problematic. One reason gangs have such severe trials to join is because it heightens the perceived reward by making the applicant suffer. Suffering a lot of pain and then have it be for nothing is a very difficult thing with which to deal, and very undesirable].
It's all getting very volatile. I'm unwilling to make predictions.
The damage was caused by the government failing to reach out to Remain supporters and seek to include them in their Brexit thinking. So they're looking at all options, including wild ones.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Something gives me the feeling that those using terms like 'batshit mental' won't be reachable anyway.
Pretty much all but my most instranisgent champagne socialist pals have come around to accepting Brexit.
Mr. Meeks, there are only three alternatives. The vote passes and a deal of some sort is done, the vote fails and we leave with no deal, or there's an attempt by the Commons to either revoke Article 50 or to have a second referendum.
Do you think the last option is plausible? Because if the numbers are dicey then it'd be madness to seek to harm the UK as much as possible, and as the rebels are pro-EU it seems nigh on certain they'd prefer to Remain than Leave as hard as possible.
[If anyone is wondering about doing that so we come 'crawling back' to the EU, I'd argue that's psychologically problematic. One reason gangs have such severe trials to join is because it heightens the perceived reward by making the applicant suffer. Suffering a lot of pain and then have it be for nothing is a very difficult thing with which to deal, and very undesirable].
It's all getting very volatile. I'm unwilling to make predictions.
The damage was caused by the government failing to reach out to Remain supporters and seek to include them in their Brexit thinking. So they're looking at all options, including wild ones.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Something gives me the feeling that those using terms like 'batshit mental' won't be reachable anyway.
Pretty much all but my most instranisgent champagne socialist pals have come around to accepting Brexit.
Only because they can't be arsed listening to your Brexit rants. Better to just simile and nod.
Do we remember this time almost a year ago, when people howled with laughter when Diane Abbott claimed Labour would catch up with the Tories in the polls within a year?
And Mercedes and Volkswagon will force Merkel's hand. And we can have a FTA with New Zealand so we'll actually be better off. And we don't need foreign nurses. And Britons are just gagging to pick cabbages and strawberries in the rain. And I think the Leave Crystal Ball is defective. And LALALALALALA not listening EFTA NORWAY BRITISH VALUES NO FOREIGNERS EU BAD UK GOOD RULE BRITANNIA IT WAS BETTER WHEN WE HAD AN EMPIRE.
Since when is a FTA and a points system for EU migrants so devastating? Usual whinge from diehard Remainers
What makes you think people will be queuing up to come to the UK when we have our points-based system? We’ll be competing with 27 other countries who do not have such requirements.
Do we remember this time almost a year ago, when people howled with laughter when Diane Abbott claimed Labour would catch up with the Tories in the polls within a year?
Mr. Meeks, there are only three alternatives. The vote passes and a deal of some sort is done, the vote fails and we leave with no deal, or there's an attempt by the Commons to either revoke Article 50 or to have a second referendum.
...
[If anyone is wondering about doing that so we come 'crawling back' to the EU, I'd argue that's psychologically problematic. One reason gangs have such severe trials to join is because it heightens the perceived reward by making the applicant suffer. Suffering a lot of pain and then have it be for nothing is a very difficult thing with which to deal, and very undesirable].
It's all getting very volatile. I'm unwilling to make predictions.
The damage was caused by the government failing to reach out to Remain supporters and seek to include them in their Brexit thinking. So they're looking at all options, including wild ones.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Something gives me the feeling that those using terms like 'batshit mental' won't be reachable anyway.
Pretty much all but my most instranisgent champagne socialist pals have come around to accepting Brexit.
Only because they can't be arsed listening to your Brexit rants. Better to just simile and nod.
Mr. Meeks, there are only three alternatives. The vote passes and a deal of some sort is done, the vote fails and we leave with no deal, or there's an attempt by the Commons to either revoke Article 50 or to have a second referendum.
Do you think the last option is plausible? Because if the numbers are dicey then it'd be madness to seek to harm the UK as much as possible, and as the rebels are pro-EU it seems nigh on certain they'd prefer to Remain than Leave as hard as possible.
[If anyone is wondering about doing that so we come 'crawling back' to the EU, I'd argue that's psychologically problematic. One reason gangs have such severe trials to join is because it heightens the perceived reward by making the applicant suffer. Suffering a lot of pain and then have it be for nothing is a very difficult thing with which to deal, and very undesirable].
It's all getting very volatile. I'm unwilling to make predictions.
The damage was caused by the government failing to reach out to Remain supporters and seek to include them in their Brexit thinking. So they're looking at all options, including wild ones.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
I object to this we are superior intelligent people and the leavers are peasants
There are some Brexiters on here who admit we are in some for considerable economic pain and a diminution in our global influence, but that it is worth it because the EU is not democratic enough and that the old order was not satisfactory for large groups in society.
Mr. Meeks, there are only three alternatives. The vote passes and a deal of some sort is done, the vote fails and we leave with no deal, or there's an attempt by the Commons to either revoke Article 50 or to have a second referendum.
Do you think the last option is plausible? Because if the numbers are dicey then it'd be madness to seek to harm the UK as much as possible, and as the rebels are pro-EU it seems nigh on certain they'd prefer to Remain than Leave as hard as possible.
[If anyone is wondering about doing that so we come 'crawling back' to the EU, I'd argue that's psychologically problematic. One reason gangs have such severe trials to join is because it heightens the perceived reward by making the applicant suffer. Suffering a lot of pain and then have it be for nothing is a very difficult thing with which to deal, and very undesirable].
It's all getting very volatile. I'm unwilling to make predictions.
The damage was caused by the government failing to reach out to Remain supporters and seek to include them in their Brexit thinking. So they're looking at all options, including wild ones.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
I object to this we are superior intelligent people and the leavers are peasants
Absolutely no respect for an opposing view
Isn’t it a point of honour among Leavers that they are the peasants?
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Something gives me the feeling that those using terms like 'batshit mental' won't be reachable anyway.
Pretty much all but my most instranisgent champagne socialist pals have come around to accepting Brexit.
If, like @Sandpit, you want their co-operation or acquiescence, you have to try to mend fences with them. "We hate you and despise you, now do as we say" is rarely a good way to get people to work to help shape implementation.
Corbyn still has a bet unfavourable rating though and May still beats him with Yougov as best PM
Er! Firstly the incumbent always has an advantage as the best PM, they are in situ while the opposition is an unknown quantity, especially as these days it has become habitual for any losing leader in an election to stand down. Corbyn exceeded by far the expectations of many.
Secondly, may I wish you well on your upcoming op., and I hope to be continuing the arguments for some time to come.
Thanks so much but I think it is me having the op not Hyufd unless he is having one to
May I add my voice (*) to the chorus wishing you all the best and a fast recovery.
(*) Although if you ever hear my voice, you may prefer me to type it instead ...
Everyone has been so amazing and thank you. I share your problem with voice. As a young choirboy I was only allow to carry the cross and mouth the words on strict orders from the vicar
Bah! That's nothing. My singing was mentioned in a published book:
It starts: "We had just passed a sign telling us to beware of a blind cat when I first heard the strange noise ..."
Mr. Meeks, there are only three alternatives. The vote passes and a deal of some sort is done, the vote fails and we leave with no deal, or there's an attempt by the Commons to either revoke Article 50 or to have a second referendum.
Do you think the last option is plausible? Because if the numbers are dicey then it'd be madness to seek to harm the UK as much as possible, and as the rebels are pro-EU it seems nigh on certain they'd prefer to Remain than Leave as hard as possible.
[If anyone is wondering about doing that so we come 'crawling back' to the EU, I'd argue that's psychologically problematic. One reason gangs have such severe trials to join is because it heightens the perceived reward by making the applicant suffer. Suffering a lot of pain and then have it be for nothing is a very difficult thing with which to deal, and very undesirable].
It's all getting very volatile. I'm unwilling to make predictions.
The damage was caused by the government failing to reach out to Remain supporters and seek to include them in their Brexit thinking. So they're looking at all options, including wild ones.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
I object to this we are superior intelligent people and the leavers are peasants
Mr. Meeks, there are only three alternatives. The vote passes and a deal of some sort is done, the vote fails and we leave with no deal, or there's an attempt by the Commons to either revoke Article 50 or to have a second referendum.
Do you think the last option is plausible? Because if the numbers are dicey then it'd be madness to seek to harm the UK as much as possible, and as the rebels are pro-EU it seems nigh on certain they'd prefer to Remain than Leave as hard as possible.
[If anyone is wondering about doing that so we come 'crawling back' to the EU, I'd argue that's psychologically problematic. One reason gangs have such severe trials to join is because it heightens the perceived reward by making the applicant suffer. Suffering a lot of pain and then have it be for nothing is a very difficult thing with which to deal, and very undesirable].
It's all getting very volatile. I'm unwilling to make predictions.
The damage was caused by the government failing to reach out to Remain supporters and seek to include them in their Brexit thinking. So they're looking at all options, including wild ones.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Oh yes we have, and will continue to do so. The EU is an inward looking, rapidly diminishing and protectionist part of the world economy. Our future is as an internationally trading nation that takes advantage of what the rest of the world has to offer.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Oh yes we have, and will continue to do so. The EU is an inward looking, rapidly diminishing and protectionist part of the world economy. Our future is as an internationally trading nation that takes advantage of what the rest of the world has to offer.
Do talk me through the strenuous efforts that you think that Leavers have made to reach out to Remain voters. Screaming "YOU'RE WRONG" doesn't count.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK. How can I believe that and support "Leave"? Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise? [Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question. It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
Absolutely, Mr Sandpit. Let us all work together to achieve our common objective and make Brexit work for us! Mr J Corbyn is a well-known Brexiteer who wants to leave the EU so that there is nothing to stop us from developing a full-blown Socialist paradise. Get into step there, Mr Sandpit, and do what you are told! We must all work together on this, you know, That is what you yourself said.
Or would everybody like to go to the other extreme, and fall in behind the Dyson model of Brexit - nothing to protect the rights of employees, hire and fire at will, abolition of corporation tax, none of this health and safety nonsense, and as for the environment..... Very much the T May line really. This may be very much more your cup of tea. But it would not be the ideal objective for most people.
What you are really calling for is the Mussolini model, where everybody stops thinking for themselves, and just does what the dictator decides, whatever that may be. That was the objective behind the holding of the recent general election, wasn`t it?
And it would help, of course, if Mrs May knew what she wanted and informed the rest of us.
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Something gives me the feeling that those using terms like 'batshit mental' won't be reachable anyway.
Pretty much all but my most instranisgent champagne socialist pals have come around to accepting Brexit.
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything?
These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision.
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
Corbyn must feel he is untouchable to try such a shamefully woeful response to hate language and imagery. He can lie about anti-semitism being an issue for Labour, he can oversee a party that tells rape victims to pretend it never happened, he can condone overt racism.
I absolutely respect your view and indeed can understand it. It must alarm you and many others but as a remain voter I believe we need to carry out the referendum and if your fears are realised (as they could be) then I do not think it will be long before some approach will be made to the EU to improve our membership.
However, we must also accept the EU have their own crisis, not only with Brexit, but the rise of the hard right, trouble in Spain, Austria rejecting the EU, moves in Italy to leave and some of the Balkan Countries making noises towards Russia.
David Cameron gets a lot of stick over the referendum but the one person, more than any other, who should have been fired with no pension as well is Junckers. He is a disaster.
Anyway, as I said the other night, he who lives longest sees the most
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Something gives me the feeling that those using terms like 'batshit mental' won't be reachable anyway.
Pretty much all but my most instranisgent champagne socialist pals have come around to accepting Brexit.
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything?
These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision.
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this.
Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
If a good Brexit required a national effort, perhaps a 50% + 1 referendum wasn't a sound basis upon which to decide to do it.
We know that it's possible to leave the EU if we need to. The problem is that we don't need to, and not enough people even want to.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK. How can I believe that and support "Leave"? Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise? [Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question. It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
Absolutely, Mr Sandpit. Let us all work together to achieve our common objective and make Brexit work for us! Mr J Corbyn is a well-known Brexiteer who wants to leave the EU so that there is nothing to stop us from developing a full-blown Socialist paradise. Get into step there, Mr Sandpit, and do what you are told! We must all work together on this, you know, That is what you yourself said.
Or would everybody like to go to the other extreme, and fall in behind the Dyson model of Brexit - nothing to protect the rights of employees, hire and fire at will, abolition of corporation tax, none of this health and safety nonsense, and as for the environment..... Very much the T May line really. This may be very much more your cup of tea. But it would not be the ideal objective for most people.
What you are really calling for is the Mussolini model, where everybody stops thinking for themselves, and just does what the dictator decides, whatever that may be. That was the objective behind the holding of the recent general election, wasn`t it?
And it would help, of course, if Mrs May knew what she wanted and informed the rest of us.
Exactly.
I fully expect for all the PB Tories to be thoroughly supportive of PM Corbyn and his politburo, once they have been democratically elected. The will of the people must be obeyed.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Oh yes we have, and will continue to do so. The EU is an inward looking, rapidly diminishing and protectionist part of the world economy. Our future is as an internationally trading nation that takes advantage of what the rest of the world has to offer.
Do talk me through the strenuous efforts that you think that Leavers have made to reach out to Remain voters. Screaming "YOU'RE WRONG" doesn't count.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK. How can I believe that and support "Leave"? Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise? [Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question. It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
Absolutely, Mr Sandpit. Let us all work together to achieve our common objective and make Brexit work for us! Mr J Corbyn is a well-known Brexiteer who wants to leave the EU so that there is nothing to stop us from developing a full-blown Socialist paradise. Get into step there, Mr Sandpit, and do what you are told! We must all work together on this, you know, That is what you yourself said.
Or would everybody like to go to the other extreme, and fall in behind the Dyson model of Brexit - nothing to protect the rights of employees, hire and fire at will, abolition of corporation tax, none of this health and safety nonsense, and as for the environment..... Very much the T May line really. This may be very much more your cup of tea. But it would not be the ideal objective for most people.
What you are really calling for is the Mussolini model, where everybody stops thinking for themselves, and just does what the dictator decides, whatever that may be. That was the objective behind the holding of the recent general election, wasn`t it?
And it would help, of course, if Mrs May knew what she wanted and informed the rest of us.
Exactly.
I fully expect for all the PB Tories to be thoroughly supportive of PM Corbyn and his politburo, once they have been democratically elected. The will of the people must be obeyed.
Corbyn still has a bet unfavourable rating though and May still beats him with Yougov as best PM
Er! Firstly the incumbent always has an advantage as the best PM, they are in situ while the opposition is an unknown quantity, especially as these days it has become habitual for any losing leader in an election to stand down. Corbyn exceeded by far the expectations of many.
Secondly, may I wish you well on your upcoming op., and I hope to be continuing the arguments for some time to come.
Thanks so much but I think it is me having the op not Hyufd unless he is having one to
May I add my voice (*) to the chorus wishing you all the best and a fast recovery.
(*) Although if you ever hear my voice, you may prefer me to type it instead ...
Everyone has been so amazing and thank you. I share your problem with voice. As a young choirboy I was only allow to carry the cross and mouth the words on strict orders from the vicar
Bah! That's nothing. My singing was mentioned in a published book:
It starts: "We had just passed a sign telling us to beware of a blind cat when I first heard the strange noise ..."
If a good Brexit required a national effort, perhaps a 50% + 1 referendum wasn't a sound basis upon which to decide to do it.
We know that it's possible to leave the EU if we need to. The problem is that we don't need to, and not enough people even want to.
Brexit is not going to happen.
Our EU friends are doing a tremendous job in making sure that the whole issue becomes so toxic that there is very soon not going to be the faintest possibility of an amicable relationship between the UK and the EU, let alone Brexit not happening or the UK rejoining. I reckon they've got about three weeks to change their approach, otherwise it is going to get very nasty indeed.
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
If a good Brexit required a national effort, perhaps a 50% + 1 referendum wasn't a sound basis upon which to decide to do it.
We know that it's possible to leave the EU if we need to. The problem is that we don't need to, and not enough people even want to.
Brexit is not going to happen.
If Brexit gets binned after another referendum, then that's fine and dandy. If it gets binned by some sort of back door method with MPs finding a way to get out of it, I reckon that will cause havoc, the like of which we haven't seen in this country in a long while. I'm all for staying in, if that's what the majority of the country want- hell, I could be persuaded to vote remain if some fucker stops calling me a racist, xenophobic, knuckle dragging thicko and gives me an EU that isn't as wanky as it is now. We're in interesting times.....
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Something gives me the feeling that those using terms like 'batshit mental' won't be reachable anyway.
Pretty much all but my most instranisgent champagne socialist pals have come around to accepting Brexit.
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything?
These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision.
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question. It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Something gives me the feeling that those using terms like 'batshit mental' won't be reachable anyway. Pretty much all but my most instranisgent champagne socialist pals have come around to accepting Brexit.
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything? These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision. These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this. Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
Moreover, Mr L, you Conservatives lost the Referendum. It was yours from beginning to end.
Why do you expect everybody else to pile in and rescue you?
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything?
These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision.
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this.
Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
I would expect people who thought, for example, that being in the Customs Union, or the Patents Court or various research programs to make the case loudly and publically not as a means to try to reverse the decision but to mitigate its effects and influence what the government is seeking to achieve in the negotiations. Instead they have remained every bit as partisan as the government ministers appointed. We will have a worse Brexit than we might have done as a result.
Which is hardly surprising, given that the Remainers still think they can sabotage the whole thing. The hardline Remainers would love a no-deal crash-out, just so they could say they told us so.
Although I am more of a passive observer these days (being as Brexit-proof as I can manage), I still believe that Brexit will be very, very damaging to the UK.
How can I believe that and support "Leave"?
Based on my beliefs I will support any initiative that keeps us in the EU. How can I do otherwise?
[Note that I am NOT asking anyone else to change their mind. I am just outlining why I refuse to change mine]
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Oh yes we have, and will continue to do so. The EU is an inward looking, rapidly diminishing and protectionist part of the world economy. Our future is as an internationally trading nation that takes advantage of what the rest of the world has to offer.
Do talk me through the strenuous efforts that you think that Leavers have made to reach out to Remain voters. Screaming "YOU'RE WRONG" doesn't count.
My view is that the time for arguing about whether we should leave or remain in the EU was before the referendum. The decision was made, by the largest number of votes ever for anything in the UK, and now it falls to the government to implement the decision of the people.
You’re free to argue that the people were wrong in that decision, but it isn’t going to change the outcome. Suggesting that the great and the good of Britain should somehow be able to override the wishes of the public and submit to the continuing EU common programme of an Army and a Treasury, will show itself up very quickly by the return of the likes of Farage, something that neither of us want to see.
Personally, I’ve tried my best to convince people that free trade with 84% of the world economy is better than being stuck with an inward-looking and diminishing 16%.
Both apalling not to say risible instances of Russian propaganda. The fault on the side of our own authorities lies in the pretence that such activity is one-sided (was there not an instance of a similar use of a videogame recently?) and the utterly cynical use of it to undermine dissenting media sources.
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything? These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision. These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this. Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
Moreover, Mr L, you Conservatives lost the Referendum. It was yours from beginning to end.
Why do you expect everybody else to pile in and rescue you?
I voted Leave so I didn't lose. People can be as bitter as they like on here but is it really too much for our elected officials to act in the national interest? There are lots of mistakes on both sides. I thought the government made a serious mistake in not involving Mandelson for example.
Personally, I’ve tried my best to convince people that free trade with 84% of the world economy is better than being stuck with an inward-looking and diminishing 16%.
Perhaps your argument would carry more weight if it wasn't a false choice based on a false premise.
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Oh yes we have, and will continue to do so. The EU is an inward looking, rapidly diminishing and protectionist part of the world economy. Our future is as an internationally trading nation that takes advantage of what the rest of the world has to offer.
Do talk me through the strenuous efforts that you think that Leavers have made to reach out to Remain voters. Screaming "YOU'RE WRONG" doesn't count.
My view is that the time for arguing about whether we should leave or remain in the EU was before the referendum. The decision was made, by the largest number of votes ever for anything in the UK, and now it falls to the government to implement the decision of the people.
You’re free to argue that the people were wrong in that decision, but it isn’t going to change the outcome. Suggesting that the great and the good of Britain should somehow be able to override the wishes of the public and submit to the continuing EU common programme of an Army and a Treasury, will show itself up very quickly by the return of the likes of Farage, something that neither of us want to see.
Personally, I’ve tried my best to convince people that free trade with 84% of the world economy is better than being stuck with an inward-looking and diminishing 16%.
What has been heard from the elected government? I can recall:
"Brexit is Brexit" Abandoning freedom of movement [NB this is the one thing I think the government was correct to do] A refusal to secure the position of EU immigrants Citizens of the world are citizens of nowhere Proposing to name and shame employers who employ EU immigrants Belatedly accepting that Britain would be outside the single market A red line over the CJEU
What is the coherent vision that the government - or any political Leaver - has of life in Brexit Britain in 2030? At least James Slash-And-Burn Dyson has expressed one, even if it does sound abysmal.
Remarkable that he hasn't been thrown out by the good folk of Birkenhead.
In reply to a witty quip by Benn the younger saying he doesn't arrange a closing date for buying a house without knowing which house he's buying a shaking and rattled Field said at least he buys his houses he doesn't inherit them.
I felt embarrassed for him. It didn't go down well and sounded cheap. The man's got Brexit written all over him
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything?
These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision.
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this.
Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
I would expect people who thought, for example, that being in the Customs Union, or the Patents Court or various research programs to make the case loudly and publically not as a means to try to reverse the decision but to mitigate its effects and influence what the government is seeking to achieve in the negotiations. Instead they have remained every bit as partisan as the government ministers appointed. We will have a worse Brexit than we might have done as a result.
Until the government outlines something approaching a coherent vision about what Brexit might look like, why should those on the opposite side try? All that's going to happen is that they are going to be labelled quislings for their pains.
I would expect people who thought, for example, that being in the Customs Union, or the Patents Court or various research programs to make the case loudly and publically not as a means to try to reverse the decision but o mititgate its effects and influence what the government is seeking to achieve in the negotiations. Instead they have remained every bit as partisan as the government ministers appointed. We will have a worse Brexit than we might have done as a result.
That's rubbish. For one thing, it's easy to think those things, and more, and think the best solution is not to plead the case one-by-one, but to remain in the EU. You may disagree with that, but it's a valid view.
For another, government ministers have massively loud voices (and sadly, often lack the intellect to go with their voice). 'People' lack that voice, unless they're given it (a la referendum). I don't see a public consultation on the form and shape of Brexit anywhere.
And also, voices for one cause or another drown each other out in the general hubbub, often allowing politicians to ignore them.
I'm growing increasingly dishearted at the chances of the fools we have in charge of Brexit to come up with a good deal. Don't blame those who want to remain within the EU for that; blame those who campaigned to leave.
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything? These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision. These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this. Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
Moreover, Mr L, you Conservatives lost the Referendum. It was yours from beginning to end.
Why do you expect everybody else to pile in and rescue you?
I voted Leave so I didn't lose. People can be as bitter as they like on here but is it really too much for our elected officials to act in the national interest? There are lots of mistakes on both sides. I thought the government made a serious mistake in not involving Mandelson for example.
That`s some kind of progress, I suppose.
But the Remain side was headed by leading Conservatives. Therefore Conservatives lost the Referendum.
[snip] Citizens of the world are citizens of nowhere[snip]
What she actually said had precisely zero to do with EU migrants, Brexit or indeed immigration in general:
But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.
But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.
So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff… An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra… A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism… A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust… I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.
Remarkable that he hasn't been thrown out by the good folk of Birkenhead.
In reply to a witty quip by Benn the younger saying he doesn't arrange a closing date for buying a house without knowing which house he's buying a shaking and rattled Field said at least he buys his houses he doesn't inherit them.
I felt embarrassed for him. It didn't go down well and sounded cheap. The man's got Brexit written all over him
If a good Brexit required a national effort, perhaps a 50% + 1 referendum wasn't a sound basis upon which to decide to do it.
We know that it's possible to leave the EU if we need to. The problem is that we don't need to, and not enough people even want to.
Brexit is not going to happen.
Our EU friends are doing a tremendous job in making sure that the whole issue becomes so toxic that there is very soon not going to be the faintest possibility of an amicable relationship between the UK and the EU, let alone Brexit not happening or the UK rejoining. I reckon they've got about three weeks to change their approach, otherwise it is going to get very nasty indeed.
^^^ THIS.
There needs to be a decision about a deal or no deal before Christmas, otherwise companies are going to start making plans for a crash out in the new year. We are better off admitting that there’s not going to be a trade deal and spending the remaining time working to facilitiate a WTO Brexit.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this.
Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
I would expect people who thought, for example, that being in the Customs Union, or the Patents Court or various research programs to make the case loudly and publically not as a means to try to reverse the decision but to mitigate its effects and influence what the government is seeking to achieve in the negotiations. Instead they have remained every bit as partisan as the government ministers appointed. We will have a worse Brexit than we might have done as a result.
Until the government outlines something approaching a coherent vision about what Brexit might look like, why should those on the opposite side try? All that's going to happen is that they are going to be labelled quislings for their pains.
I am going to stop with the brick wall soon because it is starting to hurt but just maybe they should try because the government does indeed give the clear impression of not having the faintest idea of what it is doing or what it wants?
Personally, I’ve tried my best to convince people that free trade with 84% of the world economy is better than being stuck with an inward-looking and diminishing 16%.
Perhaps your argument would carry more weight if it wasn't a false choice based on a false premise.
Exactly. Germany manages large amounts of trade, for its size, very successfully.
17.4 million people voted that we leave the EU, and the government is tasked with implementing the will of the people on that specific question.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
First you have to persuade that large number of intelligent people that it isn't completely malign and/or batshit mental. But Leavers haven't tried to do that.
Oh yes we have, and will continue to do so. The EU is an inward looking, rapidly diminishing and protectionist part of the world economy. Our future is as an internationally trading nation that takes advantage of what the rest of the world has to offer.
Do talk me through the strenuous efforts that you think that Leavers have made to reach out to Remain voters. Screaming "YOU'RE WRONG" doesn't count.
My view is that the time for arguing about whether we should leave or remain in the EU was before the referendum. The decision was made, by the largest number of votes ever for anything in the UK, and now it falls to the government to implement the decision of the people.
You’re free to argue that the people were wrong in that decision, but it isn’t going to change the outcome. Suggesting that the great and the good of Britain should somehow be able to override the wishes of the public and submit to the continuing EU common programme of an Army and a Treasury, will show itself up very quickly by the return of the likes of Farage, something that neither of us want to see.
Personally, I’ve tried my best to convince people that free trade with 84% of the world economy is better than being stuck with an inward-looking and diminishing 16%.
What has been heard from the elected government? I can recall:
"Brexit is Brexit" Abandoning freedom of movement [NB this is the one thing I think the government was correct to do] A refusal to secure the position of EU immigrants Citizens of the world are citizens of nowhere Proposing to name and shame employers who employ EU immigrants Belatedly accepting that Britain would be outside the single market A red line over the CJEU
What is the coherent vision that the government - or any political Leaver - has of life in Brexit Britain in 2030? At least James Slash-And-Burn Dyson has expressed one, even if it does sound abysmal.
I think it is the same as the Dyson one, Mr Meeks, except that they dare not say so.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this.
Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
I would expect people who thought, for example, that being in the Customs Union, or the Patents Court or various research programs to make the case loudly and publically not as a means to try to reverse the decision but to mitigate its effects and influence what the government is seeking to achieve in the negotiations. Instead they have remained every bit as partisan as the government ministers appointed. We will have a worse Brexit than we might have done as a result.
Until the government outlines something approaching a coherent vision about what Brexit might look like, why should those on the opposite side try? All that's going to happen is that they are going to be labelled quislings for their pains.
I am going to stop with the brick wall soon because it is starting to hurt but just maybe they should try because the government does indeed give the clear impression of not having the faintest idea of what it is doing or what it wants?
Having defeated Remain with xenophobic lies, it's up to Leave to come up with ways of bridging the chasm that they willingly opened up. Or, if they are unable to, to admit failure.
Why you think Remain supporters should work hard to secure Leave's dream when Leave supporters have proved wholly inadequate for their self-appointed task is quite beyond me.
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything? These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision. These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this. Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
Moreover, Mr L, you Conservatives lost the Referendum. It was yours from beginning to end.
Why do you expect everybody else to pile in and rescue you?
I voted Leave so I didn't lose. People can be as bitter as they like on here but is it really too much for our elected officials to act in the national interest? There are lots of mistakes on both sides. I thought the government made a serious mistake in not involving Mandelson for example.
That`s some kind of progress, I suppose.
But the Remain side was headed by leading Conservatives. Therefore Conservatives lost the Referendum.
They ought to recognise their own responsibility.
Sigh, so was the Leave side. But yes, as the government they are responsible.
Thanks everyone, a genuinely entertaining read as I catch up.The Honda comments - and the way that the likes of HFUYD have treated them - is indicative of what is to come. Fact based reality from the people wo run our economy is that hard Brexit loads so much cost and delay as to make their business untenable in its current form from day 1. "Ah but we'll have an FTA" is the response. Not that anyone who have to negotiate such a thing believe its remotely possible...
So here we are. A fantasy. Vs reality. The good news for "who is correct" questioners is that we don't have long to wait. The "we will have a deal" position will be swept away by the EU not giving us a deal. Then after Christmas the likes of Honda start to pull the plug on the basis of no deal means the end.
Going to be a fun 2018. When the fantasist bullshit hits the wall of reality and starts to slide off, I expect various people here to insist that everything is still according to plan. Its like Comical Ali all over again
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything?
These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision.
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this.
Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
I would expect people who thought, for example, that being in the Customs Union, or the Patents Court or various research programs to make the case loudly and publically not as a means to try to reverse the decision but to mitigate its effects and influence what the government is seeking to achieve in the negotiations. Instead they have remained every bit as partisan as the government ministers appointed. We will have a worse Brexit than we might have done as a result.
It would help if when people say we should remain in the customs union Leavers don't immediately call such people traitors and wreckers.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this.
Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
I would expect people who thought, for example, that being in the Customs Union, or the Patents Court or various research programs to make the case loudly and publically not as a means to try to reverse the decision but to mitigate its effects and influence what the government is seeking to achieve in the negotiations. Instead they have remained every bit as partisan as the government ministers appointed. We will have a worse Brexit than we might have done as a result.
Until the government outlines something approaching a coherent vision about what Brexit might look like, why should those on the opposite side try? All that's going to happen is that they are going to be labelled quislings for their pains.
I am going to stop with the brick wall soon because it is starting to hurt but just maybe they should try because the government does indeed give the clear impression of not having the faintest idea of what it is doing or what it wants?
Having defeated Remain with xenophobic lies, it's up to Leave to come up with ways of bridging the chasm that they willingly opened up. Or, if they are unable to, to admit failure.
Why you think Remain supporters should work hard to secure Leave's dream when Leave supporters have proved wholly inadequate for their self-appointed task is quite beyond me.
Remarkable that he hasn't been thrown out by the good folk of Birkenhead.
In reply to a witty quip by Benn the younger saying he doesn't arrange a closing date for buying a house without knowing which house he's buying a shaking and rattled Field said at least he buys his houses he doesn't inherit them.
I felt embarrassed for him. It didn't go down well and sounded cheap. The man's got Brexit written all over him
I haven't seen it, so don't know the context of it, but the retort by Field looks pretty good on paper. Perhaps it didn't go down well because he hit a nerve? I'm interested to know why Field has "Brexit written all over him". It's not your well known snobbery manifesting itself, is it Rog?
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
If a good Brexit required a national effort, perhaps a 50% + 1 referendum wasn't a sound basis upon which to decide to do it.
We know that it's possible to leave the EU if we need to. The problem is that we don't need to, and not enough people even want to.
Brexit is not going to happen.
If Brexit gets binned after another referendum, then that's fine and dandy. If it gets binned by some sort of back door method with MPs finding a way to get out of it, I reckon that will cause havoc, the like of which we haven't seen in this country in a long while. I'm all for staying in, if that's what the majority of the country want- hell, I could be persuaded to vote remain if some fucker stops calling me a racist, xenophobic, knuckle dragging thicko and gives me an EU that isn't as wanky as it is now. We're in interesting times.....
There will be another referendum.
I agree with you. A verdict by the people through a referendum can only be changed by another referendum.
Even though legally power vests with Parliament [ SC verdict ]. Parliament can pass legislation asking for a referendum.
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything? These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision. These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this. Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
Moreover, Mr L, you Conservatives lost the Referendum. It was yours from beginning to end.
Why do you expect everybody else to pile in and rescue you?
I voted Leave so I didn't lose. People can be as bitter as they like on here but is it really too much for our elected officials to act in the national interest? There are lots of mistakes on both sides. I thought the government made a serious mistake in not involving Mandelson for example.
That`s some kind of progress, I suppose.
But the Remain side was headed by leading Conservatives. Therefore Conservatives lost the Referendum.
They ought to recognise their own responsibility.
Sigh, so was the Leave side. But yes, as the government they are responsible.
The problem is that the Conservatives were and are simultaneously responsible and irresponsible. How about that?!!!
Both apalling not to say risible instances of Russian propaganda. The fault on the side of our own authorities lies in the pretence that such activity is one-sided (was there not an instance of a similar use of a videogame recently?) and the utterly cynical use of it to undermine dissenting media sources.
Sorry, are you claiming the British ministry of defence used video game footage?
The vast majority have accepted that the decision has been made and it will happen. But the question of what form of Brexit remains up for grabs. Do we want to remain in the Customs Union, even for a little while whilst our Border Service gets up to speed, do we want to remain in or more likely very closely aligned to the Single Market, even if that means that much of our regulatory legislation would still have to be compatible with the EUs, what are we willing to offer in terms of a "fast track" for EU citizens who want to come here to work, if anything?
These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision.
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
The side to blame is the side that wishes to implement this.
Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
I would expect people who thought, for example, that being in the Customs Union, or the Patents Court or various research programs to make the case loudly and publically not as a means to try to reverse the decision but to mitigate its effects and influence what the government is seeking to achieve in the negotiations. Instead they have remained every bit as partisan as the government ministers appointed. We will have a worse Brexit than we might have done as a result.
It would help if when people say we should remain in the customs union Leavers don't immediately call such people traitors and wreckers.
Yes it would. It would help if those who don't agree weren't called "batshit mental".
Comments
In that situation you'd need consistent 20% leads in the polls for that PLUS a prominent Leaver advocating it.
I have a horrible feeling that, if flogging you publicly was Conservative policy, you would be on here enthusiastically endorsing it.
It might be the Irish Republican in me, but I find myself becoming less enamoured of "Privilege by Birth" which many seem to admire and aspire to
Simpler times.....
Their fathers were Knights and Viscounts.
As I keep saying, the referendum was fought on a pack of lies and a tide of bigotry. An alliance of xenophobes, Little Englanders and thickos swung the campaign decisively.
We have to honour the vote (whatever my personal view). I just feel sorry for the many who did not want this calamity to happen.
I am not a Remainer. I believe we must leave. The only way things will change is for the calamity to be experienced. And it will be a calamity largely caused by this government’s complete ineptitude and total dysfunctionality.
As we all know nothing major happens when Mike goes on an overseas holiday, I plan to do some eclectic threads.
There maybe a thread thread that suggests the Brexit deal has a referendum conducted under AV that appears during that fortnight.
It would be better for everyone if the large number of intelligent people currently trying to undo or veto the result of the referendum, instead worked to help shape the implementation of it.
And we can have a FTA with New Zealand so we'll actually be better off.
And we don't need foreign nurses.
And Britons are just gagging to pick cabbages and strawberries in the rain.
And I think the Leave Crystal Ball is defective.
And LALALALALALA not listening EFTA NORWAY ECJ TAKE BACK CONTROL BRITISH VALUES NO FOREIGNERS EU BAD UK GOOD RULE BRITANNIA IT WAS BETTER WHEN WE HAD AN EMPIRE.
'We all know how this will end sadly.
As I keep saying, the referendum was fought on a pack of lies and a tide of bigotry. An alliance of xenophobes, Little Englanders and thickos swung the campaign decisively.
We have to honour the vote (whatever my personal view). I just feel sorry for the many who did not want this calamity to happen.
I voted remain but we do need to honour the result
I do accept Farage was outrageous but to be fair many people voted to have our laws made in the UK and to control our borders and do not fit the more extreme description you make above
I know this is just shouting into the void, but I'll try: Repeating a thing, especially a thing with no evidence to support it (but plenty to undermine it), just because you want it to be true, will not make it true.
Pretty much all but my most instranisgent champagne socialist pals have come around to accepting Brexit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04l0gc5
https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/930417600806440961
I discuss
He rants
They aren't listened to?
Absolutely no respect for an opposing view
But not enough.
It starts:
"We had just passed a sign telling us to beware of a blind cat when I first heard the strange noise ..."
Or would everybody like to go to the other extreme, and fall in behind the Dyson model of Brexit - nothing to protect the rights of employees, hire and fire at will, abolition of corporation tax, none of this health and safety nonsense, and as for the environment..... Very much the T May line really. This may be very much more your cup of tea. But it would not be the ideal objective for most people.
What you are really calling for is the Mussolini model, where everybody stops thinking for themselves, and just does what the dictator decides, whatever that may be. That was the objective behind the holding of the recent general election, wasn`t it?
And it would help, of course, if Mrs May knew what she wanted and informed the rest of us.
https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/930505437191065600
These questions go on and on and it is frankly frustrating that people who have valid points are instead sitting in the huff and saying, well it's up to you, you Brexit, you fix it and other such inanities. It really doesn't matter what we say on here where few minds are changed but those representing people have to be clear that they accept but wish to mitigate the consequences of the decision.
These frustrations are enhanced when we have a negotiating team that, to put it kindly, don't exactly inspire confidence that they are up on the detail. A good Brexit required a national effort but instead we have pointless and largely childish bickering and I frankly blame both sides. It's disappointing but there we are.
When will this start hurting him?
Beverley
I absolutely respect your view and indeed can understand it. It must alarm you and many others but as a remain voter I believe we need to carry out the referendum and if your fears are realised (as they could be) then I do not think it will be long before some approach will be made to the EU to improve our membership.
However, we must also accept the EU have their own crisis, not only with Brexit, but the rise of the hard right, trouble in Spain, Austria rejecting the EU, moves in Italy to leave and some of the Balkan Countries making noises towards Russia.
David Cameron gets a lot of stick over the referendum but the one person, more than any other, who should have been fired with no pension as well is Junckers. He is a disaster.
Anyway, as I said the other night, he who lives longest sees the most
Why on earth do you expect anyone to get behind something they don't believe in that is being badly led in a highly partisan way?
We know that it's possible to leave the EU if we need to. The problem is that we don't need to, and not enough people even want to.
Brexit is not going to happen.
I fully expect for all the PB Tories to be thoroughly supportive of PM Corbyn and his politburo, once they have been democratically elected. The will of the people must be obeyed.
We're in interesting times.....
Wow. Are Europe's leaders having a competition to lose support as quickly as possible?
Why do you expect everybody else to pile in and rescue you?
You’re free to argue that the people were wrong in that decision, but it isn’t going to change the outcome. Suggesting that the great and the good of Britain should somehow be able to override the wishes of the public and submit to the continuing EU common programme of an Army and a Treasury, will show itself up very quickly by the return of the likes of Farage, something that neither of us want to see.
Personally, I’ve tried my best to convince people that free trade with 84% of the world economy is better than being stuck with an inward-looking and diminishing 16%.
"Brexit is Brexit"
Abandoning freedom of movement [NB this is the one thing I think the government was correct to do]
A refusal to secure the position of EU immigrants
Citizens of the world are citizens of nowhere
Proposing to name and shame employers who employ EU immigrants
Belatedly accepting that Britain would be outside the single market
A red line over the CJEU
What is the coherent vision that the government - or any political Leaver - has of life in Brexit Britain in 2030? At least James Slash-And-Burn Dyson has expressed one, even if it does sound abysmal.
In reply to a witty quip by Benn the younger saying he doesn't arrange a closing date for buying a house without knowing which house he's buying a shaking and rattled Field said at least he buys his houses he doesn't inherit them.
I felt embarrassed for him. It didn't go down well and sounded cheap. The man's got Brexit written all over him
For another, government ministers have massively loud voices (and sadly, often lack the intellect to go with their voice). 'People' lack that voice, unless they're given it (a la referendum). I don't see a public consultation on the form and shape of Brexit anywhere.
And also, voices for one cause or another drown each other out in the general hubbub, often allowing politicians to ignore them.
I'm growing increasingly dishearted at the chances of the fools we have in charge of Brexit to come up with a good deal. Don't blame those who want to remain within the EU for that; blame those who campaigned to leave.
But the Remain side was headed by leading Conservatives. Therefore Conservatives lost the Referendum.
They ought to recognise their own responsibility.
But today, too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street.
But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means.
So if you’re a boss who earns a fortune but doesn’t look after your staff… An international company that treats tax laws as an optional extra… A household name that refuses to work with the authorities even to fight terrorism… A director who takes out massive dividends while knowing that the company pension is about to go bust… I’m putting you on warning. This can’t go on anymore.
But you know that.
THIS.
There needs to be a decision about a deal or no deal before Christmas, otherwise companies are going to start making plans for a crash out in the new year. We are better off admitting that there’s not going to be a trade deal and spending the remaining time working to facilitiate a WTO Brexit.
They would lose the support of Mr Corbyn.
Why you think Remain supporters should work hard to secure Leave's dream when Leave supporters have proved wholly inadequate for their self-appointed task is quite beyond me.
So here we are. A fantasy. Vs reality. The good news for "who is correct" questioners is that we don't have long to wait. The "we will have a deal" position will be swept away by the EU not giving us a deal. Then after Christmas the likes of Honda start to pull the plug on the basis of no deal means the end.
Going to be a fun 2018. When the fantasist bullshit hits the wall of reality and starts to slide off, I expect various people here to insist that everything is still according to plan. Its like Comical Ali all over again
I'm interested to know why Field has "Brexit written all over him". It's not your well known snobbery manifesting itself, is it Rog?
I agree with you. A verdict by the people through a referendum can only be changed by another referendum.
Even though legally power vests with Parliament [ SC verdict ]. Parliament can pass legislation asking for a referendum.
http://www.ifop.com/media/poll/3880-1-study_file.pdf