Strange thing is - while this government is, by far, the most dysfunctional and incompetent of my lifetime, I don't think it makes a material difference to the eventual Brexit outcome. Even a competent government would struggle and we would still end up taking whatever the EU gave us.
A disturbing thought, actually.
Very much so, though given you list it as the most dysfunctional I have to know from when you are counting 'this government'? If solely from the May ministry then it is an impressive accomplishment to be the most incompetent after barely more than a year.
I am coming to the opinion that the Country should 'sigh in relief' that TM continues to take all the flack and shows amazing fortitude under enormous duress.
Who on earth in their right mind would want to be PM at this time
Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.
Parliamentary sovereignty shall thankfully return on the day we leave the EU.
I’ve no objection at all with allowing the viewing of sensitive negotiation documents under Privy Council terms, but that’s not what Kier Starmer wants. He wants us to go into the most difficult and delicate negotiations in decades with all our cards face up on the table.
I would imagine that, were they so inclined, the EU negotiators could figure out the impact of Brexit on our prospects for themselves.
What the Brexiters are really terrified of is the voters' reactions if the impact assessments are made public.
I'm sure that is true, although that doesn't necessarily mean that Starmer's request via arcane rules are less game playing - I'm not parliamentary expert and I imagine he has taken advice from those who are (though expert government lawyers have been wrong before, no reason parliamentary procedure experts cannot be wrong), plus I think if it is questioned Bercow would always err on the side of the House rather than the government on such a matter, but at best from the reading of the procedure in Erskine May it is overwhelmingly historically used by government, and it is a clever loophole that it turns out it can be used by others, and if it is just a government power, it isn't a derogation of parliament.
And apparently now it has been decided the rule can be used in that way, so the clerks had better update the explanatory text in Erskine May for the next edition.
Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.
Parliamentary sovereignty shall thankfully return on the day we leave the EU.
I’ve no objection at all with allowing the viewing of sensitive negotiation documents under Privy Council terms, but that’s not what Kier Starmer wants. He wants us to go into the most difficult and delicate negotiations in decades with all our cards face up on the table.
I would imagine that, were they so inclined, the EU negotiators could figure out the impact of Brexit on our prospects for themselves.
What the Brexiters are really terrified of is the voters' reactions if the impact assessments are made public.
I'm sure that is true, although that doesn't necessarily mean that Starmer's request via arcane rules are less game playing - I'm not parliamentary expert and I imagine he has taken advice from those who are (though expert government lawyers have been wrong before, no reason parliamentary procedure experts cannot be wrong), plus I think if it is questioned Bercow would always err on the side of the House rather than the government on such a matter, but at best from the reading of the procedure in Erskine May it is overwhelmingly historically used by government, and it is a clever loophole that it turns out it can be used by others, and if it is just a government power, it isn't a derogation of parliament.
You are a parliamentary expert, you have a copy of Erskine May.
Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.
Parliamentary sovereignty shall thankfully return on the day we leave the EU.
I’ve no objection at all with allowing the viewing of sensitive negotiation documents under Privy Council terms, but that’s not what Kier Starmer wants. He wants us to go into the most difficult and delicate negotiations in decades with all our cards face up on the table.
I would imagine that, were they so inclined, the EU negotiators could figure out the impact of Brexit on our prospects for themselves.
What the Brexiters are really terrified of is the voters' reactions if the impact assessments are made public.
I'm sure that is true, although that doesn't necessarily mean that Starmer's request via arcane rules are less game playing - I'm not parliamentary expert and I imagine he has taken advice from those who are (though expert government lawyers have been wrong before, no reason parliamentary procedure experts cannot be wrong), plus I think if it is questioned Bercow would always err on the side of the House rather than the government on such a matter, but at best from the reading of the procedure in Erskine May it is overwhelmingly historically used by government, and it is a clever loophole that it turns out it can be used by others, and if it is just a government power, it isn't a derogation of parliament.
You are a parliamentary expert, you have a copy of Erskine May.
That's all it takes?! I should start a blog. Quote random passages, say it could mean x, but of course could mean y, job done.
I am assuming so. Annoyingly our mortgage offer is going to lapse before our new (and first) home is built so we will have to reapply under worse interest rates!
I do hope the budget excludes first time buyers from stamp duty because that will save us a lot of money...
Strange thing is - while this government is, by far, the most dysfunctional and incompetent of my lifetime, I don't think it makes a material difference to the eventual Brexit outcome. Even a competent government would struggle and we would still end up taking whatever the EU gave us.
A disturbing thought, actually.
Very much so, though given you list it as the most dysfunctional I have to know from when you are counting 'this government'? If solely from the May ministry then it is an impressive accomplishment to be the most incompetent after barely more than a year.
I am coming to the opinion that the Country should 'sigh in relief' that TM continues to take all the flack and shows amazing fortitude under enormous duress.
Who on earth in their right mind would want to be PM at this time
https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/925790291713495040 Look at the replies - it’s responses like that which is why so many victims don’t come forward. Saw similar responses (though they were less numerous) to poor Bex Bailey’s tweet earlier on today.
A few places excepted (PB is one of them, thank God - almost everyone was very encouraging when I had a few pieces published), it is wise advice to never read the comments. I was in the Guardian last week for work related stuff - the few comments that I read before shrugging my shoulders and laughing it off were pretty harsh.
Yep, that’s true. For the most part CIF and the DM comments section always seem to be a mess. I nearly always regret reading them. Commentators on both sites always seem so angry, even about frivolous things.
The amusing thing is CIF and DM comments disagree on virtually everything you can possibly think of apart from the fact they both hate Tony Blair and David Cameron.
If you want some half sane comments read the Times and occasionally the BBC.
I’ve accessed Times articles before (they allow you to see two per week if you sign up via email). Perhaps I’ve just had bad experiences, but the comments on the Times website come across as very bitter - particularly on issues concerning young people. They also get very defensive when Douglas Murray is criticised as well, as if you’ve just insulted god.
I am assuming so. Annoyingly our mortgage offer is going to lapse before our new (and first) home is built so we will have to reapply under worse interest rates!
I do hope the budget excludes first time buyers from stamp duty because that will save us a lot of money...
I have a gut feeling it might be put off for another month....
Strange thing is - while this government is, by far, the most dysfunctional and incompetent of my lifetime, I don't think it makes a material difference to the eventual Brexit outcome. Even a competent government would struggle and we would still end up taking whatever the EU gave us.
A disturbing thought, actually.
Very much so, though given you list it as the most dysfunctional I have to know from when you are counting 'this government'? If solely from the May ministry then it is an impressive accomplishment to be the most incompetent after barely more than a year.
I am coming to the opinion that the Country should 'sigh in relief' that TM continues to take all the flack and shows amazing fortitude under enormous duress.
Who on earth in their right mind would want to be PM at this time
https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/925790291713495040 Look at the replies - it’s responses like that which is why so many victims don’t come forward. Saw similar responses (though they were less numerous) to poor Bex Bailey’s tweet earlier on today.
A few places excepted (PB is one of them, thank God - almost everyone was very encouraging when I had a few pieces published), it is wise advice to never read the comments. I was in the Guardian last week for work related stuff - the few comments that I read before shrugging my shoulders and laughing it off were pretty harsh.
Yep, that’s true. For the most part CIF and the DM comments section always seem to be a mess. I nearly always regret reading them. Commentators on both sites always seem so angry, even about frivolous things.
It's even the case with local papers and the like, it is astonishing. I don't know how people who get so angry over even minor things would respond to things that actually are significant.
Exactly!
I think that there may be a lot of angry people out there, who are angry about the way their lives have gone and use these stories as a means to convey an anger that really has nothing to do with said story.
Strange thing is - while this government is, by far, the most dysfunctional and incompetent of my lifetime, I don't think it makes a material difference to the eventual Brexit outcome. Even a competent government would struggle and we would still end up taking whatever the EU gave us.
A disturbing thought, actually.
Every government for the last 30 years has taken what the EU has given it.
Strange thing is - while this government is, by far, the most dysfunctional and incompetent of my lifetime, I don't think it makes a material difference to the eventual Brexit outcome. Even a competent government would struggle and we would still end up taking whatever the EU gave us.
A disturbing thought, actually.
Very much so, though given you list it as the most dysfunctional I have to know from when you are counting 'this government'? If solely from the May ministry then it is an impressive accomplishment to be the most incompetent after barely more than a year.
I am coming to the opinion that the Country should 'sigh in relief' that TM continues to take all the flack and shows amazing fortitude under enormous duress.
Who on earth in their right mind would want to be PM at this time
TSE
"in their right mind"???
I'll be the greatest Prime Minister, I'll make the UK great again, it's going to be bigly.
Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.
Parliamentary sovereignty shall thankfully return on the day we leave the EU.
I’ve no objection at all with allowing the viewing of sensitive negotiation documents under Privy Council terms, but that’s not what Kier Starmer wants. He wants us to go into the most difficult and delicate negotiations in decades with all our cards face up on the table.
I would imagine that, were they so inclined, the EU negotiators could figure out the impact of Brexit on our prospects for themselves.
What the Brexiters are really terrified of is the voters' reactions if the impact assessments are made public.
I'm sure that is true, although that doesn't necessarily mean that Starmer's request via arcane rules are less game playing - I'm not parliamentary expert and I imagine he has taken advice from those who are (though expert government lawyers have been wrong before, no reason parliamentary procedure experts cannot be wrong), plus I think if it is questioned Bercow would always err on the side of the House rather than the government on such a matter, but at best from the reading of the procedure in Erskine May it is overwhelmingly historically used by government, and it is a clever loophole that it turns out it can be used by others, and if it is just a government power, it isn't a derogation of parliament.
You are a parliamentary expert, you have a copy of Erskine May.
That's all it takes?! I should start a blog. Quote random passages, say it could mean x, but of course could mean y, job done.
What would be hilarious would be for Bercow to claim that his hands were tied by the EU Policy Papers (Disclosure Of) Directive 2011. But provided he sticks to Erskine May then his decision, whatever it is, has no implications for any theory of sovereignty.
Very unlikely. Which is why May will not survive until Brexit day and the scenario we discussed earlier, in which Corbyn succeeds her as PM without an election, is a serious possibility.
In which case Corbyn has to do the Brexit negotiations leading the weakest government since the war propped up by the SNP, PC, Greens, LDs and DUP and 56 seats behind the Tories.
A swift GE would follow, and in those circumstances a Tory collapse likely at the polls. A government collapse wouldn't help Tory prospects, and PM Corbyn would be in his honeymoon period.
Really? Not one poll shows Corbyn anywhere near a majority, a new general election would make little difference and in purely partisan terms if it is Corbyn who has to pay £50 billion plus to the EU for a FTA and Corbyn who agrees to leave free movement uncontrolled for up to 5 years as the price of a transition deal that would not be a bad result for the Tories.
Polls would shift very quickly were The Tories to fail a vote of NC. Voters do not reward failure.
Strange thing is - while this government is, by far, the most dysfunctional and incompetent of my lifetime, I don't think it makes a material difference to the eventual Brexit outcome. Even a competent government would struggle and we would still end up taking whatever the EU gave us.
A disturbing thought, actually.
Very much so, though given you list it as the most dysfunctional I have to know from when you are counting 'this government'? If solely from the May ministry then it is an impressive accomplishment to be the most incompetent after barely more than a year.
I am coming to the opinion that the Country should 'sigh in relief' that TM continues to take all the flack and shows amazing fortitude under enormous duress.
Who on earth in their right mind would want to be PM at this time
TSE
"in their right mind"???
I'll be the greatest Prime Minister, I'll make the UK great again, it's going to be bigly.
[after allowing the simulated Tory Majority to be destroyed]
Theresa: Permission to speak freely, sir?
TSE: Granted.
Theresa: I do not believe this was a fair test of my Prime Ministerial abilities.
TSE: And why not?
Theresa: Because... there was no way to win.
TSE: A no-win situation is a possibility every PM may face. Has that never occurred to you?
Theresa: No, sir, it has not.
TSE: And how we deal with Brexit is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?
Theresa: As I indicated, Admiral, that thought had not occurred to me.
TSE: Well, now you have something new to think about. Carry on.
Surely the PM can just classify them as cabinet papers, or top secret?
I’d have them marked TS and released completely redacted bar the title of each document.
The respect for Parliamentary sovereignty among these Leavers is flaky. It's almost as if that isn't the real motivation of many Leavers.
Parliamentary sovereignty shall thankfully return on the day we leave the EU.
I’ve no objection at all with allowing the viewing of sensitive negotiation documents under Privy Council terms, but that’s not what Kier Starmer wants. He wants us to go into the most difficult and delicate negotiations in decades with all our cards face up on the table.
I would imagine that, were they so inclined, the EU negotiators could figure out the impact of Brexit on our prospects for themselves.
What the Brexiters are really terrified of is the voters' reactions if the impact assessments are made public.
I'm sure that is true, although that doesn't necessarily mean that Starmer's request via arcane rules are less game playing - I'm not parliamentary expert and I imagine he has taken advice from those who are (though expert government lawyers have been wrong before, no reason parliamentary procedure experts cannot be wrong), plus I think if it is questioned Bercow would always err on the side of the House rather than the government on such a matter, but at best from the reading of the procedure in Erskine May it is overwhelmingly historically used by government, and it is a clever loophole that it turns out it can be used by others, and if it is just a government power, it isn't a derogation of parliament.
You are a parliamentary expert, you have a copy of Erskine May.
That's all it takes?! I should start a blog. Quote random passages, say it could mean x, but of course could mean y, job done.
What would be hilarious would be for Bercow to claim that his hands were tied by the EU Policy Papers (Disclosure Of) Directive 2011. But provided he sticks to Erskine May then his decision, whatever it is, has no implications for any theory of sovereignty.
I suspect many things in Erskine May are, as it describes the UK's constitutional arrangements in its preface, not immutable and that things are primarily 'but not exclusively'' based on precedent. So flexibility may well be the order of the day, and as you say neither really impacts on sovereignty, not when its a point on arcane procedure.
Very unlikely. Which is why May will not survive until Brexit day and the scenario we discussed earlier, in which Corbyn succeeds her as PM without an election, is a serious possibility.
In which case Corbyn has to do the Brexit negotiations leading the weakest government since the war propped up by the SNP, PC, Greens, LDs and DUP and 56 seats behind the Tories.
A swift GE would follow, and in those circumstances a Tory collapse likely at the polls. A government collapse wouldn't help Tory prospects, and PM Corbyn would be in his honeymoon period.
Really? Not one poll shows Corbyn anywhere near a majority, a new general election would make little difference and in purely partisan terms if it is Corbyn who has to pay £50 billion plus to the EU for a FTA and Corbyn who agrees to leave free movement uncontrolled for up to 5 years as the price of a transition deal that would not be a bad result for the Tories.
Polls would shift very quickly were The Tories to fail a vote of NC. Voters do not reward failure.
The conservatives are not going to fail a vote of NC
Seems a little extreme a reaction from Sir Michael. Presumably out completely then, since if his actions do not permit him to remain in post there, he can hardly go elsewhere.
Very unlikely. Which is why May will not survive until Brexit day and the scenario we discussed earlier, in which Corbyn succeeds her as PM without an election, is a serious possibility.
In which case Corbyn has to do the Brexit negotiations leading the weakest government since the war propped up by the SNP, PC, Greens, LDs and DUP and 56 seats behind the Tories.
A swift GE would follow, and in those circumstances a Tory collapse likely at the polls. A government collapse wouldn't help Tory prospects, and PM Corbyn would be in his honeymoon period.
Really? Not one poll shows Corbyn anywhere near a majority, a new general election would make little difference and in purely partisan terms if it is Corbyn who has to pay £50 billion plus to the EU for a FTA and Corbyn who agrees to leave free movement uncontrolled for up to 5 years as the price of a transition deal that would not be a bad result for the Tories.
Polls would shift very quickly were The Tories to fail a vote of NC. Voters do not reward failure.
Utter rubbish. The Tory vote is entrenched on 40%+ while Corbyn leads Labour, the idea losing a vote of no confidence because the DUP decided to throw its hand in with Labour would shift that is absurd.
I’m aware of the hand on knee story, but even I’m shocked that’s he’s resigning over that, given JHB’s response. That’s why I thought is something worse than that story coming out?
Wow! Fallon gone without anyone calling for him to do so. I wonder if there was more to come out. What he's been accused of is hardly the top end of the scale.
Damien Green follows it would be a game changer for a long needed reshuffle
For it to be a real game changer one of the big beasts needs to be implicated.
Neither Green nor Fallon are in that category.
Game changer in regard to a cabinet reshuffle
But it isn't, is it? She dare not reshuffle extensively right now in case others are forced to go. She doesn't want a Blair style shambles. She can only really do a minor reshuffle and only promote somebody she knows isn't going to be caught out. That must be a pretty short list at this moment.
Edit - that wasn't a pun, but Priti Patel must be a strong candidate to take over.
Also, I wonder if Fallon maybe simply wanted to leave anyway? He's getting on and he was not likely to be promoted further.
Wow! Fallon gone without anyone calling for him to do so. I wonder if there was more to come out. What he's been accused of is hardly the top end of the scale.
No way he would have gone for a bit of hand on knee action 15 years ago. One of the tabloids must have had more to come.
Damien Green follows it would be a game changer for a long needed reshuffle
For it to be a real game changer one of the big beasts needs to be implicated.
Neither Green nor Fallon are in that category.
Game changer in regard to a cabinet reshuffle
But it isn't, is it? She dare not reshuffle extensively right now in case others are forced to go. She doesn't want a Blair style shambles. She can only really do a minor reshuffle and only promote somebody she knows isn't going to be caught out. That must be a pretty short list at this moment.
I’m aware of the hand on knee story, but even I’m shocked that’s he’s resigning over that, given JHB’s response. That’s why I thought is something worse than that story coming out?
I’m aware of the hand on knee story, but even I’m shocked that’s he’s resigning over that, given JHB’s response. That’s why I thought is something worse than that story coming out?
Hence why my initial reaction is did he just want out - if not that or that there is worse to come out, it does seem very odd. Sure, as the first big name to own up to something there might have been pressure to resign, but given JHB's response, I really didn't get the impression there was that much pressure, in fact I don't recall anyone even suggesting it.
Damien Green follows it would be a game changer for a long needed reshuffle
For it to be a real game changer one of the big beasts needs to be implicated.
Neither Green nor Fallon are in that category.
Game changer in regard to a cabinet reshuffle
But it isn't, is it? She dare not reshuffle extensively right now in case others are forced to go. She doesn't want a Blair style shambles. She can only really do a minor reshuffle and only promote somebody she knows isn't going to be caught out. That must be a pretty short list at this moment.
Edit - that wasn't a pun, but Priti Patel must be a strong candidate to take over.
Also, I wonder if Fallon maybe simply wanted to leave anyway? He's getting on and he was not likely to be promoted further.
That’s a good point. Promoting someone who lasts a week would be a nightmare, I imagine the PM will have the new minister look her in the eye and say they’re clean before confirming their appointment!
Resigns, for putting his hand on Julia Hartley Brewer's Knee? I didn't think there was any honour left in the place but that really is a minor misdemeanour to forsake one's ministerial career for.
Resigns, for putting his hand on Julia Hartley Brewer's Knee? I didn't think there was any honour left in the place but that really is a minor misdemeanour to forsake one's ministerial career for.
I wonder if one of the tabloids had a bigger story ready to run on Fallon.
Many years ago, a Chinese war lord was leading an invasion force when he realised that he had extended his supply lines too far. After considering his options, he called for his faithful quartermaster. The War Lord told his retainer, "I am sorry, but I have made a mistake, to correct it I need your head. Your family name, reputation and finances will be honoured". The troops realised that if the war lord was able to kill a good friend for making an error, then they should be aware what would be done to a dissenter. The War Lord went on to many victories...... Meanwhile, in the present, the Tories continue to collapse...
Comments
And apparently now it has been decided the rule can be used in that way, so the clerks had better update the explanatory text in Erskine May for the next edition.
I do hope the budget excludes first time buyers from stamp duty because that will save us a lot of money...
I think that there may be a lot of angry people out there, who are angry about the way their lives have gone and use these stories as a means to convey an anger that really has nothing to do with said story.
Remainers = Real Madrid
Blogging, trolling
And now I'm all alone
In Brexit-Land
My only home
Theresa: Permission to speak freely, sir?
TSE: Granted.
Theresa: I do not believe this was a fair test of my Prime Ministerial abilities.
TSE: And why not?
Theresa: Because... there was no way to win.
TSE: A no-win situation is a possibility every PM may face. Has that never occurred to you?
Theresa: No, sir, it has not.
TSE: And how we deal with Brexit is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?
Theresa: As I indicated, Admiral, that thought had not occurred to me.
TSE: Well, now you have something new to think about. Carry on.
Wait what? Is something worse coming out or something?
Michael Fallon resigns
Finally at least gives May the excuse for a much needed reshuffle and kudos to Fallon acting honourably.
Though I don't think its necessary re inflation though on the other hand I don't think these interest rates are doing the economy any benefit.
Emre Can to score a hat-trick
325/1 with Paddy Power.
only Fallon on his way.
Neither Green nor Fallon are in that category.
Edit - that wasn't a pun, but Priti Patel must be a strong candidate to take over.
Also, I wonder if Fallon maybe simply wanted to leave anyway? He's getting on and he was not likely to be promoted further.
Baxter Basics lives!
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