Er no. There was no legal route for the Catalans to secede under the Spanish Constitution. Any demands for a legal route are continually rebuffed by the Constitutional Court by reference to Article 2 of the Constitution:
"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards."
And the PP had already blocked any attempts by the Spanish Parliament to give more autonomy to Catalonia by appealing to the Constitutional court to strike down laws passed by the Spanish Parliament.
The root of all of this strife is the PP. Their Franco era founders would be proud of them.
It is unusual for constitutions to allow secession, mostly by not providing a mechanism for it rather than an interdiction. Sensible governments, ie NOT the Parti Popular, usually leave it to their supreme courts to deal with the matter.
I've just been reading about the BBC's apology over Lord Lawson's bare faced lies during an interview about climate change. So dishonest was it that his own organisation of climate change deniers called it 'erroneous'.
What's interesting though is that he did exactly the same thing in the early skirmish over Brexit. On Question Time he said it was planned for the EU to accept Turkey as a full member and that claim became the centre piece of the 'Leave' campain. It was by a distance the most effective of all their untruths. Even more than the much vaunted £350,000,000 to the NHS.
Really? It was a nonsense claim, at least I'm the implication of imminent admission, but I haven't heard nearly as much persisting outrage over it so didn't realise it was so effective.
Plaid seems to have the most dedicated voters in the whole of Wales, they control: 10% of the parliamentary seats (2 won very bloody narrowly) 16% of the councillors; 17% of the National assembly 25% of the Welsh european parliament seats and 50% of the police and crime commissioners.
It seem the less consequencial the election, the more likely Plaid are to get their vote out relative to everyone else.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
Down to the level at which they could be a viable independent country. Obviously Cornwall might be a step too far which is why I don't think they would ever go for it but certainly Scotland is not.
You see the difference between you and me is I trust the good sense of the people whereas time and again it appears that you do not.
There are more people in Cornwall than the Vatican City and Luxembourg
Very true. Which is why when Topping asked about Cornwall I said yes they should have that right. I just don't think they would go for it not least as I believe they are the poorest county in England?
It would require Mebyon Kernow to win most seats in the county certainly.
No actually, the difference is that you have ideals that are, well idealistic and therefore bonkers unrealisable when tested in real life, whereas I am pragmatic.
Look at your views on independence. In theory, the ideal is great: let everyone be independent. But in practice, as you at least concede, it is not practical or viable in many cases. You don't distinguish between a fantasy wouldn't it be nice (eg. Brexit/independence for Hough on the Hill) and reality.
It's not a bad trait to have, sullied when you berate people for not buying into your fantasies, but it is, sadly, just that - a fantasy.
No I do not say 'let everyone be independent'. I say let everyone have the right to choose and trust them to make the right choice. Hence my comments about Cornwall.
That is a fundamental difference. It is not a fantasy to give people the right to choose their own future and trust them to understand what is best for them and their neighbours.
By the way, how closely are you stalking me? Hough on the Hill is the next village over from where I live.
What? haha total coincidence; it's a melodically-named village in your constituency. But do you see that blacked out Ford Transit parked outside the Cafe...?
I am not 100% sure what the difference between "let everyone be independent" and "let everyone have the right to choose [to be independent]".
The principle is fine, but the practicality is impossible. Oh but of course you don't care about that, as we have seen with Brexit. And that's still fine, but you are inconsistent. Just like in the discussion about abortion. Understand if people don't like abortion; don't understand people who don't like abortion "unless"...
You support peoples' right to choose to be independent if it is a region of Spain, or a viable county (Cornwall), but don't if it is, say Borough Market*.
Case and canister were the same thing, (a sort of giant shotgun round) but Shrapnel didn't invent it.
The weapon Shrapnel is associated with was called Spherical Case Shot - a spherical shell full of explosive and musket balls designed to detonate [hopefully] over an enemy formation.
Plaid seems to have the most dedicated voters in the whole of Wales, they control: 10% of the parliamentary seats (2 won very bloody narrowly) 16% of the councillors; 17% of the National assembly 25% of the Welsh european parliament seats and 50% of the police and crime commissioners.
It seem the less consequencial the election, the more likely Plaid are to get their vote out relative to everyone else.
Nicola Sturgeon seems to be staying well clear of this issue despite widespread support for the Catalan cause in her party. I think she is a more serious politician than Leanne Woods and doesn't see an upside to her getting involved.
Judging from wiki, canister emerged from the gun as 100s of little bullets; shrapnel's wheeze was to put explosives and a fuse in the shell (along with the little bullets) so that it got closer to the enemy before dispersal.
Plaid seems to have the most dedicated voters in the whole of Wales, they control: 10% of the parliamentary seats (2 won very bloody narrowly) 16% of the councillors; 17% of the National assembly 25% of the Welsh european parliament seats and 50% of the police and crime commissioners.
It seem the less consequencial the election, the more likely Plaid are to get their vote out relative to everyone else.
Nicola Sturgeon seems to be staying well clear of this issue despite widespread support for the Catalan cause in her party. I think she is a more serious politician than Leanne Woods and doesn't see an upside to her getting involved.
Both politicians and their parties seem to be going backwards; Nicola obviously would like the rate of change to be slower than Leanne's.
Does the European Court of Human Rights have any standing to consider the inalienable right of people to band together in democratic entities of their choosing?
Plaid seems to have the most dedicated voters in the whole of Wales, they control: 10% of the parliamentary seats (2 won very bloody narrowly) 16% of the councillors; 17% of the National assembly 25% of the Welsh european parliament seats and 50% of the police and crime commissioners.
It seem the less consequencial the election, the more likely Plaid are to get their vote out relative to everyone else.
Nicola Sturgeon seems to be staying well clear of this issue despite widespread support for the Catalan cause in her party. I think she is a more serious politician than Leanne Woods and doesn't see an upside to her getting involved.
Both politicians and their parties seem to be going backwards; Nicola obviously would like the rate of change to be slower than Leanne's.
Independence is not an issue in Wales - not on the agenda anytime soon
Plaid seems to have the most dedicated voters in the whole of Wales, they control: 10% of the parliamentary seats (2 won very bloody narrowly) 16% of the councillors; 17% of the National assembly 25% of the Welsh european parliament seats and 50% of the police and crime commissioners.
It seem the less consequencial the election, the more likely Plaid are to get their vote out relative to everyone else.
Nicola Sturgeon seems to be staying well clear of this issue despite widespread support for the Catalan cause in her party. I think she is a more serious politician than Leanne Woods and doesn't see an upside to her getting involved.
Both politicians and their parties seem to be going backwards; Nicola obviously would like the rate of change to be slower than Leanne's.
I suspect Sturgeon sees complication both at the UK and European level. At the UK level she wants her independence efforts to be absolutely constitutional so she won't want to endorse non-constitutional action that could get out of hand. At the European level, she wants to present Scotland as a quasi-independent country, which means adopting international norms, which operate through nation states.
Does the European Court of Human Rights have any standing to consider the inalienable right of people to band together in democratic entities of their choosing?
Thought the UN concurs with the right of self determination
@nickeardleybbc: PM's spokesperson: “UK does not and will not recognise the Unilateral Declaration of Independence made by the Catalan regional parliament"
Does the European Court of Human Rights have any standing to consider the inalienable right of people to band together in democratic entities of their choosing?
Thought the UN concurs with the right of self determination
The UN supports decolonisation, which is a territory declaring independence from another remote state. It doesn't support fracture within a state. In general it is probably somewhat opposed.
Does the European Court of Human Rights have any standing to consider the inalienable right of people to band together in democratic entities of their choosing?
Thought the UN concurs with the right of self determination
The UN supports decolonisation, which is a territory declaring independence from another remote state. It doesn't support fracture within a state. In general it is probably somewhat opposed.
It certainly seems to be a more nuanced position than lofty rhetoric about self determination would perhaps lead people to believe.
Does the European Court of Human Rights have any standing to consider the inalienable right of people to band together in democratic entities of their choosing?
Plaid seems to have the most dedicated voters in the whole of Wales, they control: 10% of the parliamentary seats (2 won very bloody narrowly) 16% of the councillors; 17% of the National assembly 25% of the Welsh european parliament seats and 50% of the police and crime commissioners.
It seem the less consequencial the election, the more likely Plaid are to get their vote out relative to everyone else.
Nicola Sturgeon seems to be staying well clear of this issue despite widespread support for the Catalan cause in her party. I think she is a more serious politician than Leanne Woods and doesn't see an upside to her getting involved.
Both politicians and their parties seem to be going backwards; Nicola obviously would like the rate of change to be slower than Leanne's.
I suspect Sturgeon sees complication both at the UK and European level. At the UK level she wants her independence efforts to be absolutely constitutional so she won't want to endorse non-constitutional action that could get out of hand. At the European level, she wants to present Scotland as a quasi-independent country, which means adopting international norms, which operate through nation states.
Does the European Court of Human Rights have any standing to consider the inalienable right of people to band together in democratic entities of their choosing?
No. Human rights are quite narrowly defined and states are allowed considerable discretion over how they control individuals. It is more common for appellants to fail to establish a perceived human right than for the ECtHR to call out governments, assuming they generally respect democratic norms, like the UK government.
Does the European Court of Human Rights have any standing to consider the inalienable right of people to band together in democratic entities of their choosing?
Thought the UN concurs with the right of self determination
The UN supports decolonisation, which is a territory declaring independence from another remote state. It doesn't support fracture within a state. In general it is probably somewhat opposed.
Not sure that is entirely the case. They supported Namibia, East Timor, Eritrea and South Sudan in recent years. And of course they actively supported the breakup of Yugoslavia.
@nickeardleybbc: At the exact same time, Scottish Government says it respects and understands vote... says Catalonia must be able to decide its future
We understand and respect the position of the Catalan Government. While Spain has the right to oppose independence, the people of Catalonia must have the ability to determine their own future. Today’s Declaration of Independence came about only after repeated calls for dialogue were refused.
"Now, more than ever, the priority of all those who consider themselves friends and allies of Spain should be to encourage a process of dialogue to find a way forward that respects democracy and the rule of law. The imposition of direct rule cannot be the solution and should be of concern to democrats everywhere.
"The European Union has a political and moral responsibility to support dialogue to identify how the situation can be resolved peacefully and democratically.”
I appreciate everyone needs to tread carefully on this one, but the EU backs one side over the other, how can it support dialogue to find a solution, and Spain would say they are respecting democracy and the rule of law so what is there to talk about?
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Very true. The reason the millennium bug didn't cause problems is because we spent tens of billions solving it.
Mr. Charles, ah, it is. Canister, I believe, essentially sprays from the barrel, whereas case is a timed affair, with the outer case of the cannonball exploding and showering the ground with Colonel Shrapnel's offering.
F1: Raikkonen unhelpfully being sixth at the moment. However, the Red Bull pace and Ferrari sometimes sandbagging mean all hope for the other bets are not lost.
Committee Stage is limited to 8 days (by the Programme Motion) so many / most of these amendments will never be discussed at all.
However it does illustrate why it was so important to pass the Programme Motion.
What it shows is that the rebels and the opposition are grandstanding. If they were serious, they'd propose a realistic and limited number of amendments on the key issues.
Is May waiting until after this weekend to resign so that the field of her potential successors has narrowed?
For those that believe there are going to be sensational revelations about senior Conservatives this weekend (NB this does not include me), backing senior Conservative women politicians for next leader would seem marked.
Ever since Weinstein the world has been gorging itself in a 'male witch-hunt' of epic proportions. As DavidL noted earlier about Spain and Catalonia 'it takes two to ...'
What? haha total coincidence; it's a melodically-named village in your constituency. But do you see that blacked out Ford Transit parked outside the Cafe...?
I am not 100% sure what the difference between "let everyone be independent" and "let everyone have the right to choose [to be independent]".
The principle is fine, but the practicality is impossible. Oh but of course you don't care about that, as we have seen with Brexit. And that's still fine, but you are inconsistent. Just like in the discussion about abortion. Understand if people don't like abortion; don't understand people who don't like abortion "unless"...
You support peoples' right to choose to be independent if it is a region of Spain, or a viable county (Cornwall), but don't if it is, say Borough Market*.
*You don't work there do you?
I think the difference for me is clear. Catalonia is actually a case in point. If the Spanish Government had just let them have their referendum then there is an almost overwhelming likelihood they would have voted no. That would have been the end of the matter - at least in the medium term or until and unless the Spanish Government decided to do something really dumb. The majority of the people thought they were better off with Spain and if they had been given the chance to vote on that freely then this issue would be dead now. Scotland is another good example of this.
But the important point is to give people the right to make that decision. I have no doubt at all that if you gave Cornwall (to use your example) the chance to vote for independence they would say thanks but no thanks. People are not dumb. That is also why I don't see any issue with your attempts to undermine the argument by citing smaller and smaller examples. In all those cases the people would look around and realise they had nothing to gain either economically or politically from independence and would say no thanks.
Nation states are generally the expression of a shared demos, a viable self sustaining entity that represents the aspirations of their citizens. If they are too small then essentially their independence disappears, too large and diverse and there is an increasing disconnect between the people and central government. But if a region believes they would be better off (not just economically either) as an independent state then why should they be denied that opportunity?
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
They only want independence from their local council. Basically they want their own local council so they are not continually outvoted by the rest of the area. Seems a very reasonable argument to me.
Canvey just wants its own district council for local services separate from Benfleet and Thundersley and the rest of Castle point on the mainland - the major services like social care and schools would still be run by Essex county council.
Rutland has fewer people than Canvey and is a unitary authority - so it's hardly a radical idea at all. Canvey is a distinct community so why not if the locals want it.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Very true. The reason the millennium bug didn't cause problems is because we spent tens of billions solving it.
Does the European Court of Human Rights have any standing to consider the inalienable right of people to band together in democratic entities of their choosing?
Thought the UN concurs with the right of self determination
The UN supports decolonisation, which is a territory declaring independence from another remote state. It doesn't support fracture within a state. In general it is probably somewhat opposed.
Not sure that is entirely the case. They supported Namibia, East Timor, Eritrea and South Sudan in recent years. And of course they actively supported the breakup of Yugoslavia.
Good point. I think there may be a tension between promoting self-determination and preserving territorial integrity, which are both UN objectives. The second is more about not interfering in other countries' territories, such as Russia has been doing in the Ukraine. If the EU or other governments get involved in disputes between in this case Catalonia and Spain, even if Catalonia is arguably exercising the right of self-determination, that could be seen as interference in the territorial integrity of Spain.
Plaid seems to have the most dedicated voters in the whole of Wales, they control: 10% of the parliamentary seats (2 won very bloody narrowly) 16% of the councillors; 17% of the National assembly 25% of the Welsh european parliament seats and 50% of the police and crime commissioners.
It seem the less consequencial the election, the more likely Plaid are to get their vote out relative to everyone else.
Nicola Sturgeon seems to be staying well clear of this issue despite widespread support for the Catalan cause in her party. I think she is a more serious politician than Leanne Woods and doesn't see an upside to her getting involved.
Both politicians and their parties seem to be going backwards; Nicola obviously would like the rate of change to be slower than Leanne's.
Leanne Wood wants, no, is desperate for the publicity to raise the profile of Plaid, Nicola wants a legal separation and has to show she, and the SNP, are a legitimate government which takes it's international responsibilities, seriously.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Very true. The reason the millennium bug didn't cause problems is because we spent tens of billions solving it.
I'm sure that helped and indeed had positive side effect such as increased IT investment generally.
But the millenium bug was certainly overhyped.
For example I remember reading that the Saudi oilfields would stop production because they had taken no precautions believing it was a 'Christian problem'.
And there has been no shortage of other 'doom and disaster is imminent' predictions which didn't come to pass.
What? haha total coincidence; it's a melodically-named village in your constituency. But do you see that blacked out Ford Transit parked outside the Cafe...?
I am not 100% sure what the difference between "let everyone be independent" and "let everyone have the right to choose [to be independent]".
The principle is fine, but the practicality is impossible. Oh but of course you don't care about that, as we have seen with Brexit. And that's still fine, but you are inconsistent. Just like in the discussion about abortion. Understand if people don't like abortion; don't understand people who don't like abortion "unless"...
You support peoples' right to choose to be independent if it is a region of Spain, or a viable county (Cornwall), but don't if it is, say Borough Market*.
*You don't work there do you?
I think the difference for me is clear. Catalonia is actually a case in point. If the Spanish Government had just let them have their referendum then there is an almost overwhelming likelihood they would have voted no. That would have been the end of the matter - at least in the medium term or until and unless the Spanish Government decided to do something really dumb. The majority of the people thought they were better off with Spain and if they had been given the chance to vote on that freely then this issue would be dead now. Scotland is another good example of this.
But the important point is to give people the right to make that decision. I have no doubt at all that if you gave Cornwall (to use your example) the chance to vote for independence they would say thanks but no thanks. People are not dumb. That is also why I don't see any issue with your attempts to undermine the argument by citing smaller and smaller examples. In all those cases the people would look around and realise they had nothing to gain either economically or politically from independence and would say no thanks.
Nation states are generally the expression of a shared demos, a viable self sustaining entity that represents the aspirations of their citizens. If they are too small then essentially their independence disappears, too large and diverse and there is an increasing disconnect between the people and central government. But if a region believes they would be better off (not just economically either) as an independent state then why should they be denied that opportunity?
Can't wait for a federal Europe - should be laugh a minute..
What? haha total coincidence; it's a melodically-named village in your constituency. But do you see that blacked out Ford Transit parked outside the Cafe...?
I am not 100% sure what the difference between "let everyone be independent" and "let everyone have the right to choose [to be independent]".
The principle is fine, but the practicality is impossible. Oh but of course you don't care about that, as we have seen with Brexit. And that's still fine, but you are inconsistent. Just like in the discussion about abortion. Understand if people don't like abortion; don't understand people who don't like abortion "unless"...
You support peoples' right to choose to be independent if it is a region of Spain, or a viable county (Cornwall), but don't if it is, say Borough Market*.
*You don't work there do you?
I think the difference for me is clear. Catalonia is actually a case in point. If the Spanish Government had just let them have their referendum then there is an almost overwhelming likelihood they would have voted no. That would have been the end of the matter - at least in the medium term or until and unless the Spanish Government decided to do something really dumb. The majority of the people thought they were better off with Spain and if they had been given the chance to vote on that freely then this issue would be dead now. Scotland is another good example of this.
But the important point is to give people the right to make that decision. I have no doubt at all that if you gave Cornwall (to use your example) the chance to vote for independence they would say thanks but no thanks. People are not dumb. That is also why I don't see any issue with your attempts to undermine the argument by citing smaller and smaller examples. In all those cases the people would look around and realise they had nothing to gain either economically or politically from independence and would say no thanks.
Nation states are generally the expression of a shared demos, a viable self sustaining entity that represents the aspirations of their citizens. If they are too small then essentially their independence disappears, too large and diverse and there is an increasing disconnect between the people and central government. But if a region believes they would be better off (not just economically either) as an independent state then why should they be denied that opportunity?
Can't wait for a federal Europe - should be laugh a minute..
Juncker is not keen on it being broken up into too many units - an EU of 95 smallish states would be a pain in the but to adminster.
"Fears over the future of EU citizens in the UK after Brexit have been blown out of proportion, the head of Germany's UK-based industry body has told the Telegraph, as he praised Theresa May's "genuine offer" of settled status and called for trade talks to begin "as soon as possible."
Dr Bernd Atenstaedt, the chairman of German Industry UK, warned that businesses were increasingly frustrated by the EU's refusal to open discussions on trade, which are being held up until the bloc decides "sufficient progress" has been made on the key issues of citizens rights, Ireland and the so-called Brexit bill. "
The business leader said he could not see why Brussels was pushing for more assurances from Mrs May on citizens rights, as Britain had a better track record for honoring its obligations to the bloc than Germany.
@nickeardleybbc: At the exact same time, Scottish Government says it respects and understands vote... says Catalonia must be able to decide its future
We understand and respect the position of the Catalan Government. While Spain has the right to oppose independence, the people of Catalonia must have the ability to determine their own future. Today’s Declaration of Independence came about only after repeated calls for dialogue were refused.
"Now, more than ever, the priority of all those who consider themselves friends and allies of Spain should be to encourage a process of dialogue to find a way forward that respects democracy and the rule of law. The imposition of direct rule cannot be the solution and should be of concern to democrats everywhere.
"The European Union has a political and moral responsibility to support dialogue to identify how the situation can be resolved peacefully and democratically.”
I appreciate everyone needs to tread carefully on this one, but the EU backs one side over the other, how can it support dialogue to find a solution, and Spain would say they are respecting democracy and the rule of law so what is there to talk about?
Hard to know how there's a solution
The EU has fomented division in the former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, leading to many deaths. Its behaviour in the Ukraine in 2013-4 influenced me to vote No in the Brexit referendum. The EU has also promoted rebellion in other states, including Syria, and was sympathetic to the secession of South Sudan and East Timor.
However, it is two-faced regarding secessionist movements, in that it is opposed to the break-up of its own member states, and has not recognised the clearly independent states of Abkhazia and Somaliland.
I suspect that the EU will actively support Scottish independence and Irish re-unification once the UK leaves the EU.
Regarding Spain, I suspect that the Madrid government will eventually need to resort to the Generalissimo's methods if it wants to keep Spain united.
You support peoples' right to choose to be independent if it is a region of Spain, or a viable county (Cornwall), but don't if it is, say Borough Market*.
The problem with this argument is that could just as easily work the other way around. If it is a bad thing for Catalonia to be independent then you could apply the same logic to Ireland, India, US, Kenya, Zimbabwe etc.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Very true. The reason the millennium bug didn't cause problems is because we spent tens of billions solving it.
I'm sure that helped and indeed had positive side effect such as increased IT investment generally.
But the millenium bug was certainly overhyped.
For example I remember reading that the Saudi oilfields would stop production because they had taken no precautions believing it was a 'Christian problem'.
And there has been no shortage of other 'doom and disaster is imminent' predictions which didn't come to pass.
It was somewhat over-hyped in terms of some so-called 'embedded' applications. Planes were not going to fall out of the sky because the date was wrong. On the other hand, it certainly wasn't over-hyped in terms of financial, banking, insurance, tax, retail, stock-control, and similar applications, which were absolutely riddled with Y2K bugs and would most certainly have given rise to utter chaos if a huge amount of work hadn't been done. Probably also telephone systems, air-traffic control, etc - any applications where there was old software which really did depend on dates being correctly handled.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Very true. The reason the millennium bug didn't cause problems is because we spent tens of billions solving it.
ROFL
yeah right
Yeah. We really did.
The computer science literature has lots of interesting case studies based on the massive one off maintenance effort to fix the bug.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Very true. The reason the millennium bug didn't cause problems is because we spent tens of billions solving it.
I'm sure that helped and indeed had positive side effect such as increased IT investment generally.
But the millenium bug was certainly overhyped.
For example I remember reading that the Saudi oilfields would stop production because they had taken no precautions believing it was a 'Christian problem'.
And there has been no shortage of other 'doom and disaster is imminent' predictions which didn't come to pass.
It was somewhat over-hyped in terms of some so-called 'embedded' applications. Planes were not going to fall out of the sky because the date was wrong. On the other hand, it certainly wasn't over-hyped in terms of financial, banking, insurance, tax, retail, stock-control, and similar applications, which were absolutely riddled with Y2K bugs and would most certainly have given rise to utter chaos if a huge amount of work hadn't been done. Probably also telephone systems, air-traffic control, etc - any applications where there was old software which really did depend on dates being correctly handled.
Yup! Anyone who thinks the Y2K problem was irrelevant or overhyped wasn’t involved in it. It went off smoothly, only because of a *massive* amount of time and effort put in over a number of years running up to 1999.
Does the European Court of Human Rights have any standing to consider the inalienable right of people to band together in democratic entities of their choosing?
No. Human rights are quite narrowly defined and states are allowed considerable discretion over how they control individuals. It is more common for appellants to fail to establish a perceived human right than for the ECtHR to call out governments, assuming they generally respect democratic norms, like the UK government.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Very true. The reason the millennium bug didn't cause problems is because we spent tens of billions solving it.
ROFL
yeah right
Yeah. We really did.
The computer science literature has lots of interesting case studies based on the massive one off maintenance effort to fix the bug.
IIRC the first realisation of the problem was when, around 1993, American Express issued cards with an expiry date of 01/2000 and a number of merchants couldn’t deal with it.
What? haha total coincidence; it's a melodically-named village in your constituency. But do you see that blacked out Ford Transit parked outside the Cafe...?
I am not 100% sure what the difference between "let everyone be independent" and "let everyone have the right to choose [to be independent]".
The principle is fine, but the practicality is impossible. Oh but of course you don't care about that, as we have seen with Brexit. And that's still fine, but you are inconsistent. Just like in the discussion about abortion. Understand if people don't like abortion; don't understand people who don't like abortion "unless"...
You support peoples' right to choose to be independent if it is a region of Spain, or a viable county (Cornwall), but don't if it is, say Borough Market*.
*You don't work there do you?
I think the difference for me is clear. Catalonia is actually a case in point. If the Spanish Government had just let them have their referendum then there is an almost overwhelming likelihood they would have voted no. That would have been the end of the matter - at least in the medium term or until and unless the Spanish Government decided to do something really dumb. The majority of the people thought they were better off with Spain and if they had been given the chance to vote on that freely then this issue would be dead now. Scotland is another good example of this.
But the important point is to give people the right to make that decision. I have no doubt at all that if you gave Cornwall (to use your example) the chance to vote for independence they would say thanks but no thanks. People are not dumb. That is also why I don't see any issue with your attempts to undermine the argument by citing smaller and smaller examples. In all those cases the people would look around and realise they had nothing to gain either economically or politically from independence and would say no thanks.
Nation states are generally the expression of a shared demos, a viable self sustaining entity that represents the aspirations of their citizens. If they are too small then essentially their independence disappears, too large and diverse and there is an increasing disconnect between the people and central government. But if a region believes they would be better off (not just economically either) as an independent state then why should they be denied that opportunity?
Can't wait for a federal Europe - should be laugh a minute..
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Very true. The reason the millennium bug didn't cause problems is because we spent tens of billions solving it.
I'm sure that helped and indeed had positive side effect such as increased IT investment generally.
But the millenium bug was certainly overhyped.
For example I remember reading that the Saudi oilfields would stop production because they had taken no precautions believing it was a 'Christian problem'.
And there has been no shortage of other 'doom and disaster is imminent' predictions which didn't come to pass.
A considerable number of Oil installations in the North Sea had issues with their safety systems on the night. These had been older systems which people thought would not be affected but which had had software upgrades which made them vulnerable. A number of drilling rigs including my own on Norway had to stop operations when the self testing safety systems failed and the equipment just stopped working.
Genuine question, have the Gibraltarian government been commenting on this whole affair, or have they wisely decided to stay right the heck out of this?
Would be potentially disastrous for Barcelona if thrown out of La Liga.
They wouldn't be admitted to Premier League / Serie A etc - and if they had to play in their own Catalan League they would lose vast majority of their domestic TV revenues.
Plus gate receipts would also be at major risk playing a load of no hope teams.
It's the same as Celtic's situation - they can never compete seriously at European level because whatever they do the Scottish game can't generate significant revenues.
Would be potentially disastrous for Barcelona if thrown out of La Liga.
They wouldn't be admitted to Premier League / Serie A etc - and if they had to play in their own Catalan League they would lose vast majority of their domestic TV revenues.
Plus gate receipts would also be at major risk playing a load of no hope teams.
Genuine question, have the Gibraltarian government been commenting on this whole affair, or have they wisely decided to stay right the heck out of this?
Would be potentially disastrous for Barcelona if thrown out of La Liga.
They wouldn't be admitted to Premier League / Serie A etc - and if they had to play in their own Catalan League they would lose vast majority of their domestic TV revenues.
Plus gate receipts would also be at major risk playing a load of no hope teams.
But surely La Liga will be pressuring Madrid to do a deal à la BMW & Angie?
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Very true. The reason the millennium bug didn't cause problems is because we spent tens of billions solving it.
I'm sure that helped and indeed had positive side effect such as increased IT investment generally.
But the millenium bug was certainly overhyped.
For example I remember reading that the Saudi oilfields would stop production because they had taken no precautions believing it was a 'Christian problem'.
And there has been no shortage of other 'doom and disaster is imminent' predictions which didn't come to pass.
It was somewhat over-hyped in terms of some so-called 'embedded' applications. Planes were not going to fall out of the sky because the date was wrong. On the other hand, it certainly wasn't over-hyped in terms of financial, banking, insurance, tax, retail, stock-control, and similar applications, which were absolutely riddled with Y2K bugs and would most certainly have given rise to utter chaos if a huge amount of work hadn't been done. Probably also telephone systems, air-traffic control, etc - any applications where there was old software which really did depend on dates being correctly handled.
Yup! Anyone who thinks the Y2K problem was irrelevant or overhyped wasn’t involved in it. It went off smoothly, only because of a *massive* amount of time and effort put in over a number of years running up to 1999.
Fair enough, but the software community was responsible for the problem in the first place. It's not as if it wasn't reasonably foreseeable, from quite a long way out, what would come after 99 in a last two digits out of four series.
What? haha total coincidence; it's a melodically-named village in your constituency. But do you see that blacked out Ford Transit parked outside the Cafe...?
I am not 100% sure what the difference between "let everyone be independent" and "let everyone have the right to choose [to be independent]".
The principle is fine, but the practicality is impossible. Oh but of course you don't care about that, as we have seen with Brexit. And that's still fine, but you are inconsistent. Just like in the discussion about abortion. Understand if people don't like abortion; don't understand people who don't like abortion "unless"...
You support peoples' right to choose to be independent if it is a region of Spain, or a viable county (Cornwall), but don't if it is, say Borough Market*.
*You don't work there do you?
I think the difference for me is clear. Catalonia is actually a case in point. If the Spanish Government had just let them have their referendum then there is an almost overwhelming likelihood they would have voted no. That would have been the end of the matter - at least in the medium term or until and unless the Spanish Government decided to do something really dumb. The majority of the people thought they were better off with Spain and if they had been given the chance to vote on that freely then this issue would be dead now. Scotland is another good example of this.
But the important point is to give people the right to make that decision. I have no doubt at all that if you gave Cornwall (to use your example) the chance to vote for independence they would say thanks but no thanks. People are not dumb. That is also why I don't see any issue with your attempts to undermine the argument by citing smaller and smaller examples. In all those cases the people would look around and realise they had nothing to gain either economically or politically from independence and would say no thanks.
Nation states are generally the expression of a shared demos, a viable self sustaining entity that represents the aspirations of their citizens. If they are too small then essentially their independence disappears, too large and diverse and there is an increasing disconnect between the people and central government. But if a region believes they would be better off (not just economically either) as an independent state then why should they be denied that opportunity?
Your arbitrary cut off based on size logically makes no sense but I must away to the weekend so Bon Conversation!
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Very true. The reason the millennium bug didn't cause problems is because we spent tens of billions solving it.
ROFL
yeah right
I think that the only problem IT specialists had was how were they ever going to make so much money ever again.
Your arbitrary cut off based on size logically makes no sense but I must away to the weekend so Bon Conversation!
It is not arbitrary and I am not the one making the distinction. I am saying that the people themselves would decide that. If they felt they were large enough economically and politically to make a success of independence then they would have a case to call for a vote. Clearly both Scotland and Catalonia feel this is the case and therefore they should have the right to make their own choice in a referendum. My view from the outside is that Cornwall do not. But were they to decide they were then it would be their right to do so.
It is about the choice resting with the people not the national government.
I can see why you object to the idea of course given your equating of Catalan independence and Brexit but your dislike for the outcome of Brexit has blinded you to the basic democratic need to allow people to make their own choices about how they are governed.
In other and more important news Dundee has been identified as one of the top 10 coolest places to visit next year by the Wall Street Journal no less. Their description did make me wonder if they had ever been here but hey, it’s the closest to trendy I have been for a while.
In other and more important news Dundee has been identified as one of the top 10 coolest places to visit next year by the Wall Street Journal no less. Their description did make me wonder if they had ever been here but hey, it’s the closest to trendy I have been for a while.
I shall be spending two nights in Dundee next year.
In other and more important news Dundee has been identified as one of the top 10 coolest places to visit next year by the Wall Street Journal no less. Their description did make me wonder if they had ever been here but hey, it’s the closest to trendy I have been for a while.
I shall be spending two nights in Dundee next year.
In other and more important news Dundee has been identified as one of the top 10 coolest places to visit next year by the Wall Street Journal no less. Their description did make me wonder if they had ever been here but hey, it’s the closest to trendy I have been for a while.
I shall be spending two nights in Dundee next year.
In other and more important news Dundee has been identified as one of the top 10 coolest places to visit next year by the Wall Street Journal no less. Their description did make me wonder if they had ever been here but hey, it’s the closest to trendy I have been for a while.
I'm sure Dundee will be delighted. Especially Ms. Muffy English....
A quick search on wiki for Catalan Republic is illuminating: Catalan Republic (1641): a proclaimed independent state, but shortly thereafter incorporated into the Kingdom of France. Catalan State (1873): a state within the First Spanish Republic. Catalan Republic (1931): a proclaimed state declared in anticipation of the imminent formation of a Spanish republic. Within days, this territory voluntarily became an autonomous area within the Second Spanish Republic. Catalan State (1934): a "Catalan State within the Spanish Federal Republic" proclaimed during the failed Revolution of 1934. Catalan Republic (2017): an independent nation proclaimed during the 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis. Currently unrecognised by the Kingdom of Spain or other nations.
For its supporters, I suspect 5th time won't be the charm.
More depressingly for Leanne Wood, the wikipedia page on the present, unrecognised republic, finds space to note the Minister-President of Flanders supporting them, and the Scottish government's statement, among others, but nothing about her statement.
Would be potentially disastrous for Barcelona if thrown out of La Liga.
They wouldn't be admitted to Premier League / Serie A etc - and if they had to play in their own Catalan League they would lose vast majority of their domestic TV revenues.
Plus gate receipts would also be at major risk playing a load of no hope teams.
It's the same as Celtic's situation - they can never compete seriously at European level because whatever they do the Scottish game can't generate significant revenues.
GIrona and RCD Espanyol are also based in Catalonia so they would depart La liga as well we assume.
Comments
Meanwhile, on page 1,262,356 of the Constitution, it says ...
10% of the parliamentary seats (2 won very bloody narrowly)
16% of the councillors;
17% of the National assembly
25% of the Welsh european parliament seats and
50% of the police and crime commissioners.
It seem the less consequencial the election, the more likely Plaid are to get their vote out relative to everyone else.
I am not 100% sure what the difference between "let everyone be independent" and "let everyone have the right to choose [to be independent]".
The principle is fine, but the practicality is impossible. Oh but of course you don't care about that, as we have seen with Brexit. And that's still fine, but you are inconsistent. Just like in the discussion about abortion. Understand if people don't like abortion; don't understand people who don't like abortion "unless"...
You support peoples' right to choose to be independent if it is a region of Spain, or a viable county (Cornwall), but don't if it is, say Borough Market*.
*You don't work there do you?
The weapon Shrapnel is associated with was called Spherical Case Shot - a spherical shell full of explosive and musket balls designed to detonate [hopefully] over an enemy formation.
"Democrats reacted to Trump’s rhetoric by sprinting in the opposite direction."
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/symmetric-polarization/544059/
Committee Stage is limited to 8 days (by the Programme Motion) so many / most of these amendments will never be discussed at all.
However it does illustrate why it was so important to pass the Programme Motion.
"Now, more than ever, the priority of all those who consider themselves friends and allies of Spain should be to encourage a process of dialogue to find a way forward that respects democracy and the rule of law. The imposition of direct rule cannot be the solution and should be of concern to democrats everywhere.
"The European Union has a political and moral responsibility to support dialogue to identify how the situation can be resolved peacefully and democratically.”
I appreciate everyone needs to tread carefully on this one, but the EU backs one side over the other, how can it support dialogue to find a solution, and Spain would say they are respecting democracy and the rule of law so what is there to talk about?
Hard to know how there's a solution
According to Wikipedia, which is not infallible, it was case shot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrapnel_shell
F1: Raikkonen unhelpfully being sixth at the moment. However, the Red Bull pace and Ferrari sometimes sandbagging mean all hope for the other bets are not lost.
But the important point is to give people the right to make that decision. I have no doubt at all that if you gave Cornwall (to use your example) the chance to vote for independence they would say thanks but no thanks. People are not dumb. That is also why I don't see any issue with your attempts to undermine the argument by citing smaller and smaller examples. In all those cases the people would look around and realise they had nothing to gain either economically or politically from independence and would say no thanks.
Nation states are generally the expression of a shared demos, a viable self sustaining entity that represents the aspirations of their citizens. If they are too small then essentially their independence disappears, too large and diverse and there is an increasing disconnect between the people and central government. But if a region believes they would be better off (not just economically either) as an independent state then why should they be denied that opportunity?
SATURDAY 23RD DECEMBER 12:00
Real Madrid v Barcelona
Rutland has fewer people than Canvey and is a unitary authority - so it's hardly a radical idea at all. Canvey is a distinct community so why not if the locals want it.
yeah right
But the millenium bug was certainly overhyped.
For example I remember reading that the Saudi oilfields would stop production because they had taken no precautions believing it was a 'Christian problem'.
And there has been no shortage of other 'doom and disaster is imminent' predictions which didn't come to pass.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41783238
Hypocrites if they don't.
"Fears over the future of EU citizens in the UK after Brexit have been blown out of proportion, the head of Germany's UK-based industry body has told the Telegraph, as he praised Theresa May's "genuine offer" of settled status and called for trade talks to begin "as soon as possible."
Dr Bernd Atenstaedt, the chairman of German Industry UK, warned that businesses were increasingly frustrated by the EU's refusal to open discussions on trade, which are being held up until the bloc decides "sufficient progress" has been made on the key issues of citizens rights, Ireland and the so-called Brexit bill. "
The business leader said he could not see why Brussels was pushing for more assurances from Mrs May on citizens rights, as Britain had a better track record for honoring its obligations to the bloc than Germany.
However, it is two-faced regarding secessionist movements, in that it is opposed to the break-up of its own member states, and has not recognised the clearly independent states of Abkhazia and Somaliland.
I suspect that the EU will actively support Scottish independence and Irish re-unification once the UK leaves the EU.
Regarding Spain, I suspect that the Madrid government will eventually need to resort to the Generalissimo's methods if it wants to keep Spain united.
Catalonia aspires to be a proper country.
Barcelona should no more play in the Spanish league than Benfica does.
The computer science literature has lots of interesting case studies based on the massive one off maintenance effort to fix the bug.
The Trelawny League Division Four would be more appropriate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trelawny_League
and they could work their way up like everyone else has to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports_clubs_playing_in_the_league_of_another_country#Association_football
They wouldn't be admitted to Premier League / Serie A etc - and if they had to play in their own Catalan League they would lose vast majority of their domestic TV revenues.
Plus gate receipts would also be at major risk playing a load of no hope teams.
It's the same as Celtic's situation - they can never compete seriously at European level because whatever they do the Scottish game can't generate significant revenues.
Maybe not.
Kenya's electoral commission says fewer than 34% of registered voters took part in Thursday's re-run of the presidential election.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-41773919
It is about the choice resting with the people not the national government.
I can see why you object to the idea of course given your equating of Catalan independence and Brexit but your dislike for the outcome of Brexit has blinded you to the basic democratic need to allow people to make their own choices about how they are governed.
That news from Kenya is depressing.
I shall be spending two days at Carnoustie.
http://townofdundee.com/
Catalan Republic (1641): a proclaimed independent state, but shortly thereafter incorporated into the Kingdom of France.
Catalan State (1873): a state within the First Spanish Republic.
Catalan Republic (1931): a proclaimed state declared in anticipation of the imminent formation of a Spanish republic. Within days, this territory voluntarily became an autonomous area within the Second Spanish Republic.
Catalan State (1934): a "Catalan State within the Spanish Federal Republic" proclaimed during the failed Revolution of 1934.
Catalan Republic (2017): an independent nation proclaimed during the 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis. Currently unrecognised by the Kingdom of Spain or other nations.
For its supporters, I suspect 5th time won't be the charm.
More depressingly for Leanne Wood, the wikipedia page on the present, unrecognised republic, finds space to note the Minister-President of Flanders supporting them, and the Scottish government's statement, among others, but nothing about her statement.