@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Well of course it doesn’t matter how many boycott so long as you can act afterwards - see Pride’s Purge. (Granted, those were boycotted, rather than choosing to boycot)
I don't see him having a cat in hells chance of winning the leadership. For all that I like some of the things he stands for constitutionally, like Gove he would be electoral poison. If the Tories chose him he will perform even worse than IDS did in the polls.
Which is why he will not be chosen. No woman should be forced into having a child as a result of rape..
What about the rights of the child?
This is where the ethics specialist and such like come in. Does a full grown woman who is fully self-aware and building her life have exactly the same rights as a foetus which may not be self-aware (if early in the process) or that cannot support itself outside of her womb?
It is a messy business and there are rarely any good answers
I'm not sure whether we will ever reliably know if a foetus is self-aware. But for me viability is the logical place to draw the line (which is where I infer you are). That's probably earlier than 20 weeks, but not much - it should be an entirely objective judgement that is reviewed every few years by an independent body
I think viability is as good as any a place to start.
Good choice to declare today Catalonia - that way any future holiday to commemorate will enable a three day weekend celebration.
In all seriousness, Madrid was about to suspend them and probably arrest a number of them too? So things were about to get even more disruptive regardless. best wishes to the people of any political stripe there right now, it’s in for a bumpy ride.
This is extremely troubling. It's also very troubling that those on the Brexit right don't think it worthy of comment.
If you get a condemnation, it's of the "of course it's terrible" variety and then five minutes later the same people turn back to heaping odium on Remain supporters.
It is indeed extremely troubling, and part of a wider and very worrying trend for MPs (especially women MPs) to be subject to severe abuse, physical harassment, and even violence or death threats.
However, it's odd to relate it to Brexit. It's not new, and has been getting steadily worse for several years.
I don't see how you can avoid relating it to Brexit. Last year an MP prominent in the Remain cause was killed a week before the referendum by someone shouting "Britain First" and the group behind this plot appears to be linked to that attack.
I don't see him having a cat in hells chance of winning the leadership. For all that I like some of the things he stands for constitutionally, like Gove he would be electoral poison. If the Tories chose him he will perform even worse than IDS did in the polls.
Which is why he will not be chosen. No woman should be forced into having a child as a result of rape..
What about the rights of the child?
This is where the ethics specialist and such like come in. Does a full grown woman who is fully self-aware and building her life have exactly the same rights as a foetus which may not be self-aware (if early in the process) or that cannot support itself outside of her womb?
It is a messy business and there are rarely any good answers
I'm not sure whether we will ever reliably know if a foetus is self-aware. But for me viability is the logical place to draw the line (which is where I infer you are). That's probably earlier than 20 weeks, but not much - it should be an entirely objective judgement that is reviewed every few years by an independent body
My sympathies lie with the mother, but I think that any abortion should be as early as possible, partly because it may resolve some of the ethics issues (is a foetus with an as-yet undeveloped brain self-aware?) and partly because it is safer and easier for the mother and partly because she needs to feel that she has control of her life again as a step in her recovery.
He assumes returns on capital employed are constant, and do not diminish as the amount of capital employed increases.
Picketty can be can be debunked in many ways, my faverat is he does not understand the interrelation between supply and demand, (on page 8 IIRC) he confuses a moving of the demand curve with a moving up and down the demand curve, i.e. the moving of the supply curve.
Sadly the effect of corrupting a generation of 'want to be inspired' mostly young idealists, is harder to larfe at
A few days ago I had lunch with some of my older family members. My elderly grandad, a life-long Labour voter, was singing the praises of JRM... Other family members (more Conservative leaning) find him quite impressive too. I was the only person at the table who dislikes him... but I kept quiet. I've learned that family is the one arena it's best not to hold a political debate in.
My elderly father, who has voted all across the spectrum (including Con, green, OMRLP) has turned unto quite the Corbynista along with his latest wife - she is very much of the ‘hang the Tories’ vibe, so it was quite awkward at their place before the GE and I decided not to reveal I planned to vote Tory for the first time.
Its not something I think we can meaningfully do prior to Brexit due to the current state of the Treaties. The ECtHR is occasionally very irritating (prisoners votes comes to mind) but the disruption withdrawing from it would cause is deeply unattractive.
Our membership of the EU entails adherence to the Charter of Fundamental Rights regulated by the ECJ, which is a different charter from the Charter of Human Rights regulated by the European Court of Human Rights, There is no formal connection between the two, although there were moves to get the EU to sign up to the ECHR, which I think has been sytmied by the ECJ. So our leaving the EU should be neutral as far as our membership of the ECHR is concerned.
The basic question is why would we want to remove ourselves from oversight on our government's respect for human rights when we are promoting human rights as an objective good. It's partly because of a small number of decisions from ECtHR that irritate us and mainly because of a misunderstanding deliberately promoted by parts of our media and the Conservative Party about what the ECtHR actually does.
There is actually considerable overlap. The Charter of Fundamental Rights references the ECHR several times and at article 52(3) provides: "In so far as this Charter contains rights which correspond to rights guaranteed by the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, the meaning and scope of those rights shall be the same as those laid down by the said Convention. This provision shall not prevent Union law providing more extensive protection."
So if we abolished the Human Rights Act at the moment it would come into our law through the EU anyway.
A few days ago I had lunch with some of my older family members. My elderly grandad, a life-long Labour voter, was singing the praises of JRM... Other family members (more Conservative leaning) find him quite impressive too. I was the only person at the table who dislikes him... but I kept quiet. I've learned that family is the one arena it's best not to hold a political debate in.
My elderly father, who has voted all across the spectrum (including Con, green, OMRLP) has turned unto quite the Corbynista along with his latest wife - she is very much of the ‘hang the Tories’ vibe, so it was quite awkward at their place before the GE and I decided not to reveal I planned to vote Tory for the first time.
But future events and future prime ministers are not determined by betting markets. Mogg will almost certainly not be Tory leader -because of his views and overall image.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
I don't see how you can avoid relating it to Brexit. Last year an MP prominent in the Remain cause was killed a week before the referendum by someone shouting "Britain First" and the group behind this plot appears to be linked to that attack.
I don't think National Action is 'linked' to that attack, but some of the NA nutjobs have praised it, just at they have praised the Anders Breivik murders. They mainly seem to be motivated by anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim hate:
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
Just imagine Holyrood voting for independence and Westminster voting to abolish it and impose direct rule and arrest Sturgeon and you will get an idea of what is about to happen in Catalonia.
A few days ago I had lunch with some of my older family members. My elderly grandad, a life-long Labour voter, was singing the praises of JRM... Other family members (more Conservative leaning) find him quite impressive too. I was the only person at the table who dislikes him... but I kept quiet. I've learned that family is the one arena it's best not to hold a political debate in.
My elderly father, who has voted all across the spectrum (including Con, green, OMRLP) has turned unto quite the Corbynista along with his latest wife - she is very much of the ‘hang the Tories’ vibe, so it was quite awkward at their place before the GE and I decided not to reveal I planned to vote Tory for the first time.
Your father sounds fun.
Certainly more fun than me.
Never ever ever put yourself down on the internet. There will always be others queuing up to do that job.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
Just imagine Holyrood voting for independence and Westminster voting to abolish it and impose direct rule and arrest Sturgeon and you will get an idea of what is about to happen in Catalonia.
I'm sure the FCA has assured whoever will listen that you won't be able to fit a fag paper between what the EU decides is appropriate FinSec regulation, and the regs that the FCA implements. For now and ever more (as we are of a slightly religious flavour on here).
Well it makes my life simpler.
I actually dreamt about Brexit last night.
Dreaming about minimum capital adequacy levels was a new experience.
Professionally, I'll be glad when Brexit is over, it is close to occupying 99% of my day job.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
@Richard_Nabavi@AlastairMeeks My MP isn't doing preadvertised or public Surgeries citing security concerns. You can see her via appointment only and only at her office. She's been widely criticized for it though that's I suspect as much to do with poor presentation of the policy and the location of her office in a sprawling rural constituency. Of course this is not new in general terms. However we all know if Brown Terrorists had been charged with plotting the murder of an ex Services Tory MP how the would be covered in the media via a visit the second female Labour MP to be ( allegedly ) targeted by far right alleged terrorists in two years. We certainly won't be hearing calls for " the White community " to speak out and do more.
I'm sure the FCA has assured whoever will listen that you won't be able to fit a fag paper between what the EU decides is appropriate FinSec regulation, and the regs that the FCA implements. For now and ever more (as we are of a slightly religious flavour on here).
Well it makes my life simpler.
I actually dreamt about Brexit last night.
Dreaming about minimum capital adequacy levels was a new experience.
Professionally, I'll be glad when Brexit is over, it is close to occupying 99% of my day job.
@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout Europe
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.
I don't see him having a cat in hells chance of winning the leadership. For all that I like some of the things he stands for constitutionally, like Gove he would be electoral poison. If the Tories chose him he will perform even worse than IDS did in the polls.
Which is why he will not be chosen. No woman should be forced into having a child as a result of rape..
What about the rights of the child?
This is where the ethics specialist and such like come in. Does a full grown woman who is fully self-aware and building her life have exactly the same rights as a foetus which may not be self-aware (if early in the process) or that cannot support itself outside of her womb?
It is a messy business and there are rarely any good answers
I'm not sure whether we will ever reliably know if a foetus is self-aware. But for me viability is the logical place to draw the line (which is where I infer you are). That's probably earlier than 20 weeks, but not much - it should be an entirely objective judgement that is reviewed every few years by an independent body
A foetus at 20 weeks is 'viable' only with massive medical interventions, and babies born so early often have lifelong health problems and disabilities.
Yes - but the point is it is viable without the support of the mother, which is why it should have equal rights at that point as a human life
But it is not viable without massive amounts of support, initially, and often long into their lives. It isn't 'naturally' viable.
Personally I'd pick a time at which half of the babies can be expected to survive with minimal medical intervention and without long-term health problems.
@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout Europe
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.
Standing - the degree of personal stake in the issue. All citizens have a stake in Brexit or Sindy. What standing do I have to claim a personal stake in some stranger's abortion?
Or in her wish to commit infanticide on her new-born baby?
What about her viewpoint? Having to feel the child of her rapist moving within her every day? A reminder 24/7 for months of what was done to her. The impact on her career as she is forced to have time off for a pregnancy she does not want. The danger of medical complications that may stay with her for life - pregnancy is not risk free and women still die from childbirth.
To be sure, the child is innocent but the child is a life-long reminder of a vicious, life-changing assault and with the world these days, the father might even claim visitation rights and another whole legal battle ensues.
This is a highly complex and life changing issue. In some instances, your life is in ruins for years afterwards - as well as recovering from the rape and the mental damage and trauma that causes.
If you believe an unborn child is a soul-endowed moral being in the full sense of the term, it's understandable why you'd oppose abortion across the board, even while having sympathy for the plight of the mother.
If you believe it's just biological matter that is not yet a person in any meaningful sense, then abortion isn't a moral question regardless of the reasons the mother seeks one.
I find it more difficult to understand those who are against abortion except in cases like rape, than those who are consistent on this point tbh.
In Mormonism, there is no definitive answer on when the spirit enters the body. Abortion is not considered equivalent to murder, but there is sufficient ambiguity over the foetus' status to warrant banning it (within the church) except in cases of rape, incest or threat to the mother's life. Even then it's not a decision to be taken lightly. So there are coherent positions not at either extreme depending on theology
I'm sure the FCA has assured whoever will listen that you won't be able to fit a fag paper between what the EU decides is appropriate FinSec regulation, and the regs that the FCA implements. For now and ever more (as we are of a slightly religious flavour on here).
Dreaming about minimum capital adequacy levels was a new experience.
@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout Europe
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.
'Barely half’ is enough, surely. That’s what was enough here!
I don't see him having a cat in hells chance of winning the leadership. For all that I like some of the things he stands for constitutionally, like Gove he would be electoral poison. If the Tories chose him he will perform even worse than IDS did in the polls.
Which is why he will not be chosen. No woman should be forced into having a child as a result of rape..
What about the rights of the child?
This is where the ethics specialist and such like come in. Does a full grown woman who is fully self-aware and building her life have exactly the same rights as a foetus which may not be self-aware (if early in the process) or that cannot support itself outside of her womb?
It is a messy business and there are rarely any good answers
I'm not sure whether we will ever reliably know if a foetus is self-aware. But for me viability is the logical place to draw the line (which is where I infer you are). That's probably earlier than 20 weeks, but not much - it should be an entirely objective judgement that is reviewed every few years by an independent body
A foetus at 20 weeks is 'viable' only with massive medical interventions, and babies born so early often have lifelong health problems and disabilities.
Yes - but the point is it is viable without the support of the mother, which is why it should have equal rights at that point as a human life
But it is not viable without massive amounts of support, initially, and often long into their lives. It isn't 'naturally' viable.
Personally I'd pick a time at which half of the babies can be expected to survive with minimal medical intervention and without long-term health problems.
@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout Europe
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.
At best a little over a majority want to be independent, at worst a significant minority do, but it’s definitely a schism. Whether it is a boost is far less clear, to say the least.
@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout Europe
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.
'Barely half’ is enough, surely. That’s what was enough here!
The next Barcelona v Real Madrid match will be interesting
@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout Europe
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.
At best a little over a majority want to be independent, at worst a significant minority do, but it’s definitely a schism. Whether it is a boost is far less clear, to say the least.
Wonder if Nicola will be the first to recognise the new Republic of Catalonia
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
@ianbirrell: Seems like the #Catalan parliament has voted for independence. Spain plans to take direct control. Fasten your seatbelts
Live on Sky - huge schism in Spain and boost to Independence movements throughout Europe
A little OTT - barely half the MPs voted for it. Massive opposition both within Catalonia and the rest of Spain. As ever Sky is getting carried away by the 'democracy of the crowd'.
I don't see him having a cat in hells chance of winning the leadership. For all that I like some of the things he stands for constitutionally, like Gove he would be electoral poison. If the Tories chose him he will perform even worse than IDS did in the polls.
Which is why he will not be chosen. No woman should be forced into having a child as a result of rape..
What about the rights of the child?
This is where the ethics specialist and such like come in. Does a full grown woman who is fully self-aware and building her life have exactly the same rights as a foetus which may not be self-aware (if early in the process) or that cannot support itself outside of her womb?
It is a messy business and there are rarely any good answers
I'm not sure whether we will ever reliably know if a foetus is self-aware. But for me viability is the logical place to draw the line (which is where I infer you are). That's probably earlier than 20 weeks, but not much - it should be an entirely objective judgement that is reviewed every few years by an independent body
A foetus at 20 weeks is 'viable' only with massive medical interventions, and babies born so early often have lifelong health problems and disabilities.
Yes - but the point is it is viable without the support of the mother, which is why it should have equal rights at that point as a human life
But it is not viable without massive amounts of support, initially, and often long into their lives. It isn't 'naturally' viable.
Personally I'd pick a time at which half of the babies can be expected to survive with minimal medical intervention and without long-term health problems.
Surely that would be well over 30 weeks.
Yes, quite possibly. It seems a perfectly logical position to take.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.
BBC says 10 MPs remained to vote against Catalan Independence and 2 abstentions. How do you abstain on an issue of such importance?
Easy. If you think declaring independence is ultra vires and unconstitutional boycotting the vote is the logical thing to do. Taking part legitimises it.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.
Of course he's not very pro-life when it comes to capital punishment. He seems to pick and choose which of the Holy Father's pronouncements to adhere to. He's an idiot and the fact that he's being discussed at all shows the state of the modern Tory party and the loopiness of its members.
I may have misheard but I'm sure JRM said he opposed capital punishment on last night's QT?
He said he opposed the indiscriminate use of the death penalty.
(Five points for who can identify which politician did actually say that.)
BBC says 10 MPs remained to vote against Catalan Independence and 2 abstentions. How do you abstain on an issue of such importance?
Easy. If you think declaring independence is ultra vires and unconstitutional boycotting the vote is the logical thing to do. Taking part legitimises it.
You misunderstand - boycotting makes sense to me. But abstaining is not boycotting (it counts as being present). Most of those opposed to indy left, 10 who opposed it (or at least the declaration) voted against, but 2 stayed in the room but didn’t vote either way. They still took part, they just expressed no view.
If they didn’t want to boycott, and they didn’t as they stayed in the room, why not express a vote? I’m curious if they are nominal supporters of indy, but not in this way, or opponents of indy who didn’t want to let the vote happen without them, but didn’t want to dignify the declaration with an actual decision, or what?
But it is not viable without massive amounts of support, initially, and often long into their lives. It isn't 'naturally' viable.
Personally I'd pick a time at which half of the babies can be expected to survive with minimal medical intervention and without long-term health problems.
Surely that would be well over 30 weeks.
Yes, quite possibly. It seems a perfectly logical position to take.
Come on @rcs1000 - we haven't had your usual 2p on this subject...
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.
Very complacent
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
BBC says 10 MPs remained to vote against Catalan Independence and 2 abstentions. How do you abstain on an issue of such importance?
Easy. If you think declaring independence is ultra vires and unconstitutional boycotting the vote is the logical thing to do. Taking part legitimises it.
You misunderstand - boycotting makes sense to me. But abstaining is not boycotting (it counts as being present). Most of those opposed to indy left, 10 who opposed it (or at least the declaration) voted against, but 2 stayed in the room but didn’t vote either way. They still took part, they just expressed no view.
If they didn’t want to boycott, and they didn’t as they stayed in the room, why not express a vote? I’m curious if they are nominal supporters of indy, but not in this way, or opponents of indy who didn’t want to let the vote happen without them, but didn’t want to dignify the declaration with an actual decision, or what?
I suspect the abstainers probably wanted dialogue about more powers for Catalonia short of independence.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
According to Wikipedia it's one of only four lyric-less national anthems, along with those of Bosnia, Kosovo and San Marino, and it's fairly obvious why the first two of those don't have lyrics. I had thought that Japan's didn't either but apparently I am wrong.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.
Very complacent
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
On topic, when I was at school I remember there was a debate on abortion with different views on it and no "right and wrong answer".
Since then it has been decided (no idea by whom) what the correct answer is and everyone with a valid but different opinion is branded a nutjob.
The problem is there are still millions of people with these views, so each time someone calls them a bunch of lunatics then they come across as complete arseholes.
JRM already said it is a personal matter and he won't impose his views on anyone else so what exactly is the problem to the wanky thought police?
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.
Very complacent
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.
Very complacent
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.
Mucho complaciente.
I think 'muy complaciente' is the phrase you're looking for!
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.
Very complacent
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.
Very complacent
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.
Very complacent
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.
Mucho complaciente.
I think 'muy complaciente' is the phrase you're looking for!
On-topic: if Corbyn goes for it the next PM could be a man who marched with banners of a genocidal dictator and who described himself as a friend of Hamas and Hezbollah, who throw people from rooftops for being homosexual.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
The rule of law is just what they decide it is, many laws have been unjust throughout history.
They could easily have changed the law to allow a legal referendum as asked for by the Catalonian parliament, but they decided not to which has created this situation.
@nickeardleybbc: Catalonia's parliament has just voted in favour of declaring independence from Spain (vote boycotted by some anti-independence MPs)
Which will last 24 hours until the Spanish Parliament abolishes the Catalan Parliament tomorrow and arrests the Catalan President.
If so I really fear that this will turn very nasty very quickly
I'm not so sure. I don't see how the Catalan government has the means to oppose the central government right now. All they have is the Mossos d'Esquadra regional police who are most likely going to obey Madrid, even if some of the actual officers might be pro-independence in their personal politics. Other than that there's no, AFAIAA, tradition of "physical force" Catalan nationalism on the model of ETA or the IRA. We might well see some mass civil disobedience but even there Catalonia is very split, vide the mass demonstrations against independence after the vote.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
If you hear the Parliament singing the Catalonian anthem ' live' just now you realise this is a very serious moment in Spain's history
About as bloody as the Marseillaise. Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
Absurd. We heard just over half of the Catalan MPs singing - all the rest had boycotted the vote. Of course it's a serious crisis but less than half of Catalonians support independence in all recent polls. This will end after a lot of huffing and puffing in some more devolved powers for Catalonia.
Very complacent
I live in Spain which helps in this case but either way it's always a good idea these days not to get over-excited by soundbites for the 24 hours news channels. even most of the pro-independence rebels anticipate pretty much what I posted.
CNN now calling it a real crisis
Lol - CNN - whatever next.
World wide story and coverage
It's been in the news for weeks. Get over yourself. What matters now are the reactions of the Spanish people as a whole, the national politicians, the EU and European countries.
'It's been in the news for weeks. Get over yourself. What matters now are the reactions of the Spanish people as a whole, the national politicians, the EU and European countries'
What matters now is how Spain reacts. They need to offer a legitimate referendum to Catalonia as David Cameron did for Scotland. Anything less will be a disaster for Spain and self determination of peoples
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
Well, perhaps we should enact a law making Gibraltar a part of the United Kingdom in perpetuity and see just how deeply principled the Spanish government’s position is.
Comments
In all seriousness, Madrid was about to suspend them and probably arrest a number of them too? So things were about to get even more disruptive regardless. best wishes to the people of any political stripe there right now, it’s in for a bumpy ride.
Sadly the effect of corrupting a generation of 'want to be inspired' mostly young idealists, is harder to larfe at
So if we abolished the Human Rights Act at the moment it would come into our law through the EU anyway.
Nationalist might want to try to boycott paying their taxes perhaps, but how do you do that in a modern state where they're deducted from your paycheque before you even see the rest of the money?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews/2381165/national-action-neo-nazi-terror-group-banned-uk-jo-cox-killer-thomas-mair/
It seems to be most of all an offshoot from the most extreme elements of the BNP.
History shows that abortions will happen regardless.
I actually dreamt about Brexit last night.
Dreaming about minimum capital adequacy levels was a new experience.
Professionally, I'll be glad when Brexit is over, it is close to occupying 99% of my day job.
Personally I'd pick a time at which half of the babies can be expected to survive with minimal medical intervention and without long-term health problems.
So there are coherent positions not at either extreme depending on theology
https://twitter.com/benglaze/status/923908623524392960
@PickardJE: To lose one Dexeu minister bad: to lose David Jones, Lord Bridges, and now Baroness Anelay (as well as perm sec Olly Robbins) even worse.
Funny, I never hear the Spanish national anthem sung out loud.
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/10/joyce-anelay-a-farewell-to-ministerial-office.html?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter
Imagine Westminster doing that over Scotland
What we calling this ?
Cataschism.
Sounds like a retirement due to health reasons, rather than anything to do with the department.
If they didn’t want to boycott, and they didn’t as they stayed in the room, why not express a vote? I’m curious if they are nominal supporters of indy, but not in this way, or opponents of indy who didn’t want to let the vote happen without them, but didn’t want to dignify the declaration with an actual decision, or what?
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
A Catatonic for the Troops?
https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/923914819631271936
(Since "Lysis" In Greek means "separation")
Since then it has been decided (no idea by whom) what the correct answer is and everyone with a valid but different opinion is branded a nutjob.
The problem is there are still millions of people with these views, so each time someone calls them a bunch of lunatics then they come across as complete arseholes.
JRM already said it is a personal matter and he won't impose his views on anyone else so what exactly is the problem to the wanky thought police?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-lancashire-41771010/hundreds-attend-veteran-s-funeral-in-accrington-after-appeal
Sounds like the perfect CV to be a Brexit minister to me.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/10/pervert-politicians-why-weinstein-effect-could-hit-westminster-hardest
There is a Catalan saying:
Eat well. Shit hard.
On-topic: if Corbyn goes for it the next PM could be a man who marched with banners of a genocidal dictator and who described himself as a friend of Hamas and Hezbollah, who throw people from rooftops for being homosexual.
They could easily have changed the law to allow a legal referendum as asked for by the Catalonian parliament, but they decided not to which has created this situation.
Cabinet minister to go?
(No naming names, obviously).
What matters now is how Spain reacts. They need to offer a legitimate referendum to Catalonia as David Cameron did for Scotland. Anything less will be a disaster for Spain and self determination of peoples