The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
Well, perhaps we should enact a law making Gibraltar a part of the United Kingdom in perpetuity and see just how deeply principled the Spanish government’s position is.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
With 43% turning out, its highly unlikely that the majority boycotted. An 86% turnout would be unheard of, and that's not taking into account those who were excluded from voting by the violence of the Spanish state.
Sounds like there is a case for having Parliament deal with HR stuff.
No doubt something like that will happen after the furore that is likely to follow Sunday's papers.
Cabinet minister to go?
Speculation? Or we expect dirt on one?
(No naming names, obviously).
Speculation, based on the idea that this is the weekend when it all comes tumbling out thanks to Weinstein and #metoo effect. Difficult to believe there wont be at least one senior minister involved.
Spain have pushed this to the limit now. They still hold most the cards but everything depends on how the people of Catalonia act, particularly those in public positions. It's not going to be easy for them.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
I don't dispute that but as you say the Catalans are divided and the rest of Spain have rights too. The overwhelming view seems to be one of 'better together' to coin a phrase.
Spain have pushed this to the limit now. They still hold most the cards but everything depends on how the people of Catalonia act, particularly those in public positions. It's not going to be easy for them.
I think it may be more accurate to say that Catalonia has pushed it to the limit. rather like Brexit it seems to me to be an act of self-harm.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
I don't dispute that but as you say the Catalans are divided and the rest of Spain have rights too. The overwhelming view seems to be one of 'better together' to coin a phrase.
And then the answer is a proper referendum agreed by Spain. If you are correct, and you know much more than I do, than the matter would be resolved sensibly and more importantly, democratically.
As I returned from the cruise port to the airport in Barcelona last Saturday I passed a fire station with a large banner 'Democracia'. A vote is the essence of democracy
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
I don't dispute that but as you say the Catalans are divided and the rest of Spain have rights too. The overwhelming view seems to be one of 'better together' to coin a phrase.
Then they should allow the Catalans to have a free vote unconstrained by police brutality and threats and se what the Catalan people really want. If they wish to Remain part of Spain then that will be the result of the referendum.
And you are right there are similarities to Brexit. An elite with vested interests in the status quo are trying to stop people having their say for fear they might be rejected. That is no basis for democracy.
Spain have pushed this to the limit now. They still hold most the cards but everything depends on how the people of Catalonia act, particularly those in public positions. It's not going to be easy for them.
I think it may be more accurate to say that Catalonia has pushed it to the limit. rather like Brexit it seems to me to be an act of self-harm.
Its hard to judge from a distance but the Catalans were the ones who seemed to be looking for compromise and negotiations every step of the way. They were given no options other than give in or declare independence. That's what they have done now. It is unclear where we go next. Will the Mossos d'Esquadra take their instructions from Barca or Spain? Will they seek to stop the Guarda Civil arresting leaders etc? Some violence looks inevitable. We can only hope it is minor.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted.
Indeed, although that they came not a million miles away from a majority of voters despite people being beaten in the street somewhat undermined the valid arguments against the turnout figure (and indeed the process of the vote itself). Law is definitely on the Madrid side, but if they couldn’t physically stop the vote, it might have been better to let it happen peacefully and jus point to flaws in the process and the boycott by non-indy voters. As it is, the Catalan separatists have a partial excuse for the lower turnout.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
Well, perhaps we should enact a law making Gibraltar a part of the United Kingdom in perpetuity and see just how deeply principled the Spanish government’s position is.
I thought that is what the Treaty of Utrecht did, legally giving it to us in perpetuity. I’d always assumed that other than some disputes over where the line was, and archaic provisions (like not allowing Jews onto the Rock!) the spanishposition on Gibraltar was that politically they want it, but that they don’t have a legal claim, as opposed to the Falklands where Argentina maintains they have a legal claim.
Spain have pushed this to the limit now. They still hold most the cards but everything depends on how the people of Catalonia act, particularly those in public positions. It's not going to be easy for them.
I think it may be more accurate to say that Catalonia has pushed it to the limit. rather like Brexit it seems to me to be an act of self-harm.
What’s the Spanish for ‘it takes two to tango’?
The Catalans make the initial provocation for the immediate crisis with the referendum, but the response of Madrid up to and from them do appear to have contributed. Indeed, the Catalan leaders have seemed somewhat reluctant to take this next step.
But as others have noted what in effect can they do? Unless there’s some overwhelming mass civil disobedence when Madrid takes direct control, which doesn’t seem to be predicted, what do they think is going to happen? They were going to be dissolved anyway, and merely organising a referendum which wasn’t stated to lead to a UDI was enough to convict the last Catalan president, so most of the leaders were to be banned from public office as well I expect, so I assume they felt the ram had already touched the wall.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
I don't dispute that but as you say the Catalans are divided and the rest of Spain have rights too. The overwhelming view seems to be one of 'better together' to coin a phrase.
The rest of the UK would have had no rights if the Scots had decided to go their own way with a legitimate Referendum, sanctioned by Westminster. What are the rights that Spain have too?
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
I don't dispute that but as you say the Catalans are divided and the rest of Spain have rights too. The overwhelming view seems to be one of 'better together' to coin a phrase.
Then they should allow the Catalans to have a free vote unconstrained by police brutality and threats and se what the Catalan people really want. If they wish to Remain part of Spain then that will be the result of the referendum.
And you are right there are similarities to Brexit. An elite with vested interests in the status quo are trying to stop people having their say for fear they might be rejected. That is no basis for democracy.
Yes and this is the version of "democracy" that remainers were happy to sign up to.
Once the EU police and army have been created it would be British pensioners that would be beaten up trying to vote to leave.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
I don't dispute that but as you say the Catalans are divided and the rest of Spain have rights too. The overwhelming view seems to be one of 'better together' to coin a phrase.
And then the answer is a proper referendum agreed by Spain. If you are correct, and you know much more than I do, than the matter would be resolved sensibly and more importantly, democratically.
As I returned from the cruise port to the airport in Barcelona last Saturday I passed a fire station with a large banner 'Democracia'. A vote is the essence of democracy
Yes and Puidgemont has ruled out democratic elections no doubt because everyone expects his party would lose heavily.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
Sounds like there is a case for having Parliament deal with HR stuff.
No doubt something like that will happen after the furore that is likely to follow Sunday's papers.
Cabinet minister to go?
Speculation? Or we expect dirt on one?
(No naming names, obviously).
Speculation, based on the idea that this is the weekend when it all comes tumbling out thanks to Weinstein and #metoo effect. Difficult to believe there wont be at least one senior minister involved.
Wonder if these two, whom Guido fingered several years ago, are involved. (Embarrassing for Theresa if so.)
Sounds like there is a case for having Parliament deal with HR stuff.
No doubt something like that will happen after the furore that is likely to follow Sunday's papers.
Cabinet minister to go?
Speculation? Or we expect dirt on one?
(No naming names, obviously).
Speculation, based on the idea that this is the weekend when it all comes tumbling out thanks to Weinstein and #metoo effect. Difficult to believe there wont be at least one senior minister involved.
Wonder if these two, whom Guido fingered several years ago, are involved. (Embarrassing for Theresa if so.)
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
I don't dispute that but as you say the Catalans are divided and the rest of Spain have rights too. The overwhelming view seems to be one of 'better together' to coin a phrase.
The rest of the UK would have had no rights if the Scots had decided to go their own way with a legitimate Referendum, sanctioned by Westminster. What are the rights that Spain have too?
The Spanish constitution enshrines their rights. Not the same as the UK arrangement. However, if the Catalans had acted legally - the'd eventually have been able to secede. They chose not to - perhaps motivated by polling which suggests there is not a majority for full independence.
Is May waiting until after this weekend to resign so that the field of her potential successors has narrowed?
For those that believe there are going to be sensational revelations about senior Conservatives this weekend (NB this does not include me), backing senior Conservative women politicians for next leader would seem marked.
Sounds like there is a case for having Parliament deal with HR stuff.
No doubt something like that will happen after the furore that is likely to follow Sunday's papers.
Cabinet minister to go?
Speculation? Or we expect dirt on one?
(No naming names, obviously).
Speculation, based on the idea that this is the weekend when it all comes tumbling out thanks to Weinstein and #metoo effect. Difficult to believe there wont be at least one senior minister involved.
Wonder if these two, whom Guido fingered several years ago, are involved. (Embarrassing for Theresa if so.)
Is May waiting until after this weekend to resign so that the field of her potential successors has narrowed?
For those that believe there are going to be sensational revelations about senior Conservatives this weekend (NB this does not include me), backing senior Conservative women politicians for next leader would seem marked.
Ever since Weinstein the world has been gorging itself in a 'male witch-hunt' of epic proportions. As DavidL noted earlier about Spain and Catalonia 'it takes two to ...'
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Developers with the relevant programming skills utterly coined it iirc.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Aside from the religious stuff, another concern I have (and I can see and once indeed did list several reasons why he is appealing and wouldn't be the worst choice out there) is in fact Brexit. And it's related to the religion bit. He is a smart bloke, made a ton of money in the Far East and global markets, and is alive to the issues facing the UK today.
He should be perfectly aware both of how much damage Brexit will do to the economy, and the chimera that is "reclaiming sovereignty" (we never lost it). His Brexit belief is just that, a belief that transcends logic or interrogation, and just is.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Like Trump, Mogg would be a mildly amusing arse if he weren't anywhere near political power.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
The referendum apparently was illegal under the Catalan as well as the Spanish Constitution. Changes to the status of Catalonia require a two thirds majority in parliament.
In general, I think states should allow a clearly expressed desire to secede, but they don't have to make it easy.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
I seem to remember the Millennium Bug was a very anglo-centric panic. France and Italy didn't really bother with it in the same way and didn't suffer much for it.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Like Trump, Mogg would be a mildly amusing arse if he weren't anywhere near political power.
While Jacob has his idiosyncrasies he is nowhere near as crazy as Trump
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Like Trump, Mogg would be a mildly amusing arse if he weren't anywhere near political power.
While Jacob has his idiosyncrasies he is nowhere near as crazy as Trump
And would still be a mildly amusing arse were he nowhere near political power.
BBC says 10 MPs remained to vote against Catalan Independence and 2 abstentions. How do you abstain on an issue of such importance?
Easy. If you think declaring independence is ultra vires and unconstitutional boycotting the vote is the logical thing to do. Taking part legitimises it.
Abstaining isn't boycotting though.
(A shout out to Captain Boycott, whole alongside Colonel Shrapnel, is one of the many unremembered British military officers)
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
I don't dispute that but as you say the Catalans are divided and the rest of Spain have rights too. The overwhelming view seems to be one of 'better together' to coin a phrase.
The rest of the UK would have had no rights if the Scots had decided to go their own way with a legitimate Referendum, sanctioned by Westminster. What are the rights that Spain have too?
The Spanish constitution enshrines their rights. Not the same as the UK arrangement. However, if the Catalans had acted legally - the'd eventually have been able to secede. They chose not to - perhaps motivated by polling which suggests there is not a majority for full independence.
Er no. There was no legal route for the Catalans to secede under the Spanish Constitution. Any demands for a legal route are continually rebuffed by the Constitutional Court by reference to Article 2 of the Constitution:
"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards."
And the PP had already blocked any attempts by the Spanish Parliament to give more autonomy to Catalonia by appealing to the Constitutional court to strike down laws passed by the Spanish Parliament.
The root of all of this strife is the PP. Their Franco era founders would be proud of them.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
I seem to remember the Millennium Bug was a very anglo-centric panic. France and Italy didn't really bother with it in the same way and didn't suffer much for it.
Daft comment. Did France or Italy use a different calendar? It wasn't a panic, because it was planned for months if not years ahead and the work was done methodically and it was fixed.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Odd. Why would British party leaders comment on an internal Spanish matter?
Even odder is Leanne Wood's comment: "I congratulate the Catalan people on gaining their independence through peaceful and democratic means." Somewhat premature, to say the least.
Odd. Why would British party leaders comment on an internal Spanish matter?
Even odder is Leanne Wood's comment: "I congratulate the Catalan people on gaining their independence through peaceful and democratic means." Somewhat premature, to say the least.
Quite. There's a good reason for delays in comments sometimes.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Like Trump, Mogg would be a mildly amusing arse if he weren't anywhere near political power.
Nah, weird religious convictions aside he seems quite an affable chap. Certainly he managed to win over the young SNP MP when she entered Parliament and he is generally regarded as very popular.
Trump on the other hand is a complete arse who seems to sneer at all around him.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
Down to the level at which they could be a viable independent country. Obviously Cornwall might be a step too far which is why I don't think they would ever go for it but certainly Scotland is not.
You see the difference between you and me is I trust the good sense of the people whereas time and again it appears that you do not.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
Down to the level at which they could be a viable independent country. Obviously Cornwall might be a step too far which is why I don't think they would ever go for it but certainly Scotland is not.
You see the difference between you and me is I trust the good sense of the people whereas time and again it appears that you do not.
There are more people in Cornwall than the Vatican City and Luxembourg, Brunei and Antigua.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
They only want independence from their local council. Basically they want their own local council so they are not continually outvoted by the rest of the area. Seems a very reasonable argument to me.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Like Trump, Mogg would be a mildly amusing arse if he weren't anywhere near political power.
Nah, weird religious convictions aside he seems quite an affable chap. Certainly he managed to win over the young SNP MP when she entered Parliament and he is generally regarded as very popular.
Trump on the other hand is a complete arse who seems to sneer at all around him.
He is quite friendly with Jess Phillips too, though politically miles apart.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
Down to the level at which they could be a viable independent country. Obviously Cornwall might be a step too far which is why I don't think they would ever go for it but certainly Scotland is not.
You see the difference between you and me is I trust the good sense of the people whereas time and again it appears that you do not.
No actually, the difference is that you have ideals that are, well idealistic and therefore bonkers unrealisable when tested in real life, whereas I am pragmatic.
Look at your views on independence. In theory, the ideal is great: let everyone be independent. But in practice, as you at least concede, it is not practical or viable in many cases. You don't distinguish between a fantasy wouldn't it be nice (eg. Brexit/independence for Hough on the Hill) and reality.
It's not a bad trait to have, sullied when you berate people for not buying into your fantasies, but it is, sadly, just that - a fantasy.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
Down to the level at which they could be a viable independent country. Obviously Cornwall might be a step too far which is why I don't think they would ever go for it but certainly Scotland is not.
You see the difference between you and me is I trust the good sense of the people whereas time and again it appears that you do not.
There are more people in Cornwall than the Vatican City and Luxembourg
Very true. Which is why when Topping asked about Cornwall I said yes they should have that right. I just don't think they would go for it not least as I believe they are the poorest county in England?
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
They only want independence from their local council. Basically they want their own local council so they are not continually outvoted by the rest of the area. Seems a very reasonable argument to me.
Odd. Why would British party leaders comment on an internal Spanish matter?
Even odder is Leanne Wood's comment: "I congratulate the Catalan people on gaining their independence through peaceful and democratic means." Somewhat premature, to say the least.
Ah, but the accent. The trick is to hear the music and not the words.
Sounds like there is a case for having Parliament deal with HR stuff.
No doubt something like that will happen after the furore that is likely to follow Sunday's papers.
Cabinet minister to go?
Speculation? Or we expect dirt on one?
(No naming names, obviously).
Speculation, based on the idea that this is the weekend when it all comes tumbling out thanks to Weinstein and #metoo effect. Difficult to believe there wont be at least one senior minister involved.
Wonder if these two, whom Guido fingered several years ago, are involved. (Embarrassing for Theresa if so.)
No actually, the difference is that you have ideals that are, well idealistic and therefore bonkers unrealisable when tested in real life, whereas I am pragmatic.
Look at your views on independence. In theory, the ideal is great: let everyone be independent. But in practice, as you at least concede, it is not practical or viable in many cases. You don't distinguish between a fantasy wouldn't it be nice (eg. Brexit/independence for Hough on the Hill) and reality.
It's not a bad trait to have, sullied when you berate people for not buying into your fantasies, but it is, sadly, just that - a fantasy.
No I do not say 'let everyone be independent'. I say let everyone have the right to choose and trust them to make the right choice. Hence my comments about Cornwall.
That is a fundamental difference. It is not a fantasy to give people the right to choose their own future and trust them to understand what is best for them and their neighbours.
By the way, how closely are you stalking me? Hough on the Hill is the next village over from where I live.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity. If the Catalans want to be independent (and of course that is very much debatable at the moment) then Spain should allow them to go through the process of deciding whether they will be or not. If the law prevents that then the law needs to change.
And the Cornish?
Why not? The principle is the same. Of course the difference at the moment is that beyond a tiny number, there is no real support for Cornish Independence. But if it developed then they should have that right.
Down to what level would you support independence? County? Town? Pimlico? No. 9 Acacia Avenue?
Down to the level at which they could be a viable independent country. Obviously Cornwall might be a step too far which is why I don't think they would ever go for it but certainly Scotland is not.
You see the difference between you and me is I trust the good sense of the people whereas time and again it appears that you do not.
No actually, the difference is that you have ideals that are, well idealistic and therefore bonkers unrealisable when tested in real life, whereas I am pragmatic.
Look at your views on independence. In theory, the ideal is great: let everyone be independent. But in practice, as you at least concede, it is not practical or viable in many cases. You don't distinguish between a fantasy wouldn't it be nice (eg. Brexit/independence for Hough on the Hill) and reality.
It's not a bad trait to have, sullied when you berate people for not buying into your fantasies, but it is, sadly, just that - a fantasy.
I am realistic.
You are a fantasist.
He is being detained under the Mental Health Act...
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass. https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
Like Trump, Mogg would be a mildly amusing arse if he weren't anywhere near political power.
Nah, weird religious convictions aside he seems quite an affable chap. Certainly he managed to win over the young SNP MP when she entered Parliament and he is generally regarded as very popular.
Trump on the other hand is a complete arse who seems to sneer at all around him.
He is quite friendly with Jess Phillips too, though politically miles apart.
I've just been reading about the BBC's apology over Lord Lawson's bare faced lies during an interview about climate change. So dishonest was it that his own organisation of climate change deniers called it 'erroneous'.
What's interesting though is that he did exactly the same thing in the early skirmish over Brexit. On Question Time he said it was agreed for the EU to accept Turkey as a full member and that claim became the centre piece of the 'Leave' campain. It was by a distance the most effective of all their untruths. Even more than the much vaunted £350,000,000 to the NHS.
The Spanish should have given the Catalans a legal referendum which they would have won. Even then they could have negotiated afterwards sensibly. Instead they have made a complete pig's ear of it.
If you deny people the right to self determination then this is the result.
The Catalonian government organised an illegal referendum which the majority of voters boycotted. In Spain they value the rule of law for very sound historical reasons.
Illegal because it was literally impossible for them to hold a legal one.
Spain is a democracy which believes in the rule of law. Sad that you don't get that.
'The law' derives from the people or it has no validity.
Comments
Catalonia and Westminster sex harassment stories look like they will dominate
As I returned from the cruise port to the airport in Barcelona last Saturday I passed a fire station with a large banner 'Democracia'. A vote is the essence of democracy
And you are right there are similarities to Brexit. An elite with vested interests in the status quo are trying to stop people having their say for fear they might be rejected. That is no basis for democracy.
The Catalans make the initial provocation for the immediate crisis with the referendum, but the response of Madrid up to and from them do appear to have contributed. Indeed, the Catalan leaders have seemed somewhat reluctant to take this next step.
But as others have noted what in effect can they do? Unless there’s some overwhelming mass civil disobedence when Madrid takes direct control, which doesn’t seem to be predicted, what do they think is going to happen? They were going to be dissolved anyway, and merely organising a referendum which wasn’t stated to lead to a UDI was enough to convict the last Catalan president, so most of the leaders were to be banned from public office as well I expect, so I assume they felt the ram had already touched the wall.
She may yet be Last Man Standing!
Perhaps the good Lady just wasn’t up to it ?
Once the EU police and army have been created it would be British pensioners that would be beaten up trying to vote to leave.
https://order-order.com/tag/shaggable/
More than the usual chaff.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, an outspoken Conservative MP, sits firmly within the Brexit camp, and recently described the consequences of a no-deal exit scenario as being exaggerated “much like the millennium bug.” The complicated realities of Brexit aside, this remark has annoyed developers d’un certain age who remember the Y2K panic, and dedicated years of their lives to ensuring the worst predictions never came to pass.
https://thenextweb.com/dd/2017/10/26/developers-wish-people-remember-big-deal-y2k-bug/
He should be perfectly aware both of how much damage Brexit will do to the economy, and the chimera that is "reclaiming sovereignty" (we never lost it). His Brexit belief is just that, a belief that transcends logic or interrogation, and just is.
And for that reason, I'm out.
In general, I think states should allow a clearly expressed desire to secede, but they don't have to make it easy.
(A shout out to Captain Boycott, whole alongside Colonel Shrapnel, is one of the many unremembered British military officers)
I don't find that remarkable - few will want to get involved in this powder keg.
"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards."
And the PP had already blocked any attempts by the Spanish Parliament to give more autonomy to Catalonia by appealing to the Constitutional court to strike down laws passed by the Spanish Parliament.
The root of all of this strife is the PP. Their Franco era founders would be proud of them.
Did France or Italy use a different calendar?
It wasn't a panic, because it was planned for months if not years ahead and the work was done methodically and it was fixed.
Even odder is Leanne Wood's comment: "I congratulate the Catalan people on gaining their independence through peaceful and democratic means." Somewhat premature, to say the least.
Plaid Cymru...
https://mobile.twitter.com/LeanneWood/status/923925928979369986
Trump on the other hand is a complete arse who seems to sneer at all around him.
Because Tories understood no argument but force
To Cambridge he sent a cart of books instead
For Whigs allow no force but argument
You see the difference between you and me is I trust the good sense of the people whereas time and again it appears that you do not.
That said, plenty of scope for engine and fuel sandbagging.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41691003
bonkersunrealisable when tested in real life, whereas I am pragmatic.Look at your views on independence. In theory, the ideal is great: let everyone be independent. But in practice, as you at least concede, it is not practical or viable in many cases. You don't distinguish between a fantasy wouldn't it be nice (eg. Brexit/independence for Hough on the Hill) and reality.
It's not a bad trait to have, sullied when you berate people for not buying into your fantasies, but it is, sadly, just that - a fantasy.
http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/portal/Congreso/Congreso/Hist_Normas/Norm/const_espa_texto_ingles_0.pdf
...and it’s broken already, lasted half an hour. Second new engine going in now, so he’s at least 50 places in penalties now.
That is a fundamental difference. It is not a fantasy to give people the right to choose their own future and trust them to understand what is best for them and their neighbours.
By the way, how closely are you stalking me? Hough on the Hill is the next village over from where I live.
I am realistic.
You are a fantasist.
He is being detained under the Mental Health Act...
*ducks*
http://www.niemanlab.org/2017/10/civil-the-blockchain-based-journalism-marketplace-is-building-its-first-batch-of-publications/
What's interesting though is that he did exactly the same thing in the early skirmish over Brexit. On Question Time he said it was agreed for the EU to accept Turkey as a full member and that claim became the centre piece of the 'Leave' campain. It was by a distance the most effective of all their untruths. Even more than the much vaunted £350,000,000 to the NHS.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/24/bbc-apologises-over-interview-climate-sceptic-lord-nigel-lawson