I thought Macron's victory was meant to have drawn an ineradicable line under under Trumpy Brexity alt right naughtiness. This is not a happy result for the bien pensant.
But even the Macron victory was a rejection of politics as usual. It's not so much a right versus left issue, as an established parties versus upstarts. If there is any overall lesson it's that across the world parties and people who "can't win" are doing better than expected. People are fed up with parties of all colours and willing to give alternatives a go, or at least give the incumbents a kick up the arse.
Kicking the chair away from the establishment is a short lived atavistic pleasure. A bit like pissing your pants, a brief warm feeling followed by discomfort and embarrassment.
Pretty much. Look at Trump for example.
Or Corbyn, Leftist populusm to teach a lesson to the right wing populists? I'm in
I thought you were highly paid and rented out a property ? And an active Christian.
If so I'd be careful what you wish for
So, such a person cannot support the left ?
They're likely to find that the Left in government is less to their liking than the Left in opposition.
I thought Macron's victory was meant to have drawn an ineradicable line under under Trumpy Brexity alt right naughtiness. This is not a happy result for the bien pensant.
But even the Macron victory was a rejection of politics as usual. It's not so much a right versus left issue, as an established parties versus upstarts. If there is any overall lesson it's that across the world parties and people who "can't win" are doing better than expected. People are fed up with parties of all colours and willing to give alternatives a go, or at least give the incumbents a kick up the arse.
Kicking the chair away from the establishment is a short lived atavistic pleasure. A bit like pissing your pants, a brief warm feeling followed by discomfort and embarrassment.
Pretty much. Look at Trump for example.
Or Corbyn, Leftist populusm to teach a lesson to the right wing populists? I'm in
I thought you were highly paid and rented out a property ? And an active Christian.
If so I'd be careful what you wish for
Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work. No rental income, so not an issue. I am an active Christian, but affiliated with the Christian Socialist movement rather than Opus Dei.
But I do not vote just my own interest. Corbyn or May? no contest! I do have some regard for a few Tory MPs, but just a few of them.
I so hate to interrupt the merkelbashing, but the first series of "Star Trek: Discovery" is tonight, and the title sequence is online now (unless it's fake ). Have a butchers...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9E2olGqUlU
I still can't get over the fact that one of the cast members described herself as the first black lead in Star Trek, completely forgetting Avery Brooks as Sisko. Especially ironic given that star trek was supposed to be beyond all that stuff.
Tuvok, Uhura, Worf, LaForge... Millennials have no memory, bless 'em.
I so hate to interrupt the merkelbashing, but the first series of "Star Trek: Discovery" is tonight, and the title sequence is online now (unless it's fake ). Have a butchers...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9E2olGqUlU
I still can't get over the fact that one of the cast members described herself as the first black lead in Star Trek, completely forgetting Avery Brooks as Sisko. Especially ironic given that star trek was supposed to be beyond all that stuff.
Tuvok, Uhura, Worf, LaForge... Millennials have no memory, bless 'em.
He mentioned him because he was the lead character in DS9. Like Kirk was head honcho in TOS and Picard in TNG.
I know, Sunil.
Let's start this again:
@RobD said: I still can't get over the fact that one of the cast members described herself as the first black lead in Star Trek, completely forgetting Avery Brooks as Sisko
A little disingenuous to consider the French Senate contest an "election" as the electorate is heavily restricted and likely to favour established local parties such as the French centre right.
Fillon's figure to mop up an election that should have been his for the taking was perhaps a greater failure for centre right politics than either May or now Merkel failing to convert strong poll numbers into parliamentary majorities.
Kicking the chair away from the establishment is a short lived atavistic pleasure. A bit like pissing your pants, a brief warm feeling followed by discomfort and embarrassment, then a mess to clean up.
It doesn't mean people won't do it. And if one alternative fails there will be others waiting for the following election.
I thought Macron's victory was meant to have drawn an ineradicable line under under Trumpy Brexity alt right naughtiness. This is not a happy result for the bien pensant.
But even the Macron victory was a rejection of politics as usual. It's not so much a right versus left issue, as an established parties versus upstarts. If there is any overall lesson it's that across the world parties and people who "can't win" are doing better than expected. People are fed up with parties of all colours and willing to give alternatives a go, or at least give the incumbents a kick up the arse.
Kicking the chair away from the establishment is a short lived atavistic pleasure. A bit like pissing your pants, a brief warm feeling followed by discomfort and embarrassment.
Pretty much. Look at Trump for example.
Or Corbyn, Leftist populusm to teach a lesson to the right wing populists? I'm in
I thought you were highly paid and rented out a property ? And an active Christian.
If so I'd be careful what you wish for
Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work. No rental income, so not an issue. I am an active Christian, but affiliated with the Christian Socialist movement rather than Opus Dei.
But I do not vote just my own interest. Corbyn or May? no contest! I do have some regard for a few Tory MPs, but just a few of them.
Apologies for my error on the rented property - but I'm sure someone said you did.
I suspect you would be wrong about Labour investment in the NHS - it would get spent on higher pay and they would have higher priorities to begin with as well.
Can't stop laughing at the German federal election result.
Perhaps she'll deal with May now with a bit more humility.
I doubt it. If anything she will try and assert herself on the international stage instead of fixing her domestic problems. One imagines that the average AfD voter sympathises with or supports Brexit, but she probably doesn't want to see it.
Yes, the Twitterati view seems to be whatever the election result in Germany it's bad for Britain, and Brexit.
Latest view from pundits (all of whom detest the AfD, of course) is that she must act even tougher on Brexit to avoid encouraging them still further.
*facepalm*
One imagines that will produce the opposite of the intended effect. The only way to make herself look strong and, err, stable in respect of Brexit would be to take a pro-EU line. I don't see that going down well with the CDU right wing or with AfD voters. It is her domestic problems which have produced this result and the only way to fix it will be to get her domestic issues under control.
A little disingenuous to consider the French Senate contest an "election" as the electorate is heavily restricted and likely to favour established local parties such as the French centre right.
Fillon's figure to mop up an election that should have been his for the taking was perhaps a greater failure for centre right politics than either May or now Merkel failing to convert strong poll numbers into parliamentary majorities.
People go on about Corbyn Labour having the strongest membership of any centre left party in Europe but after tonight's result May's Tories also surprisingly have the highest voteshare of any centre right party in Europe
Kicking the chair away from the establishment is a short lived atavistic pleasure. A bit like pissing your pants, a brief warm feeling followed by discomfort and embarrassment, then a mess to clean up.
It doesn't mean people won't do it. And if one alternative fails there will be others waiting for the following election.
Which is why Corbynism appealed more to UKIP voters more than many here anticipated.
People go on about Corbyn Labour having the strongest membership of any centre left party in Europe but after tonight's result May's Tories also surprisingly have the highest voteshare of any centre right party in Europe
And yet May is weak and Merkel strong if you believe the political pundits. Hmmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.
I thought Macron's victory was meant to have drawn an ineradicable line under under Trumpy Brexity alt right naughtiness. This is not a happy result for the bien pensant.
But even the Macron victory was a rejection of politics as usual. It's not so much a right versus left issue, as an established parties versus upstarts. If there is any overall lesson it's that across the world parties and people who "can't win" are doing better than expected. People are fed up with parties of all colours and willing to give alternatives a go, or at least give the incumbents a kick up the arse.
Kicking the chair away from the establishment is a short lived atavistic pleasure. A bit like pissing your pants, a brief warm feeling followed by discomfort and embarrassment.
Pretty much. Look at Trump for example.
Or Corbyn, Leftist populusm to teach a lesson to the right wing populists? I'm in
I thought you were highly paid and rented out a property ? And an active Christian.
If so I'd be careful what you wish for
Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work. No rental income, so not an issue. I am an active Christian, but affiliated with the Christian Socialist movement rather than Opus Dei.
But I do not vote just my own interest. Corbyn or May? no contest! I do have some regard for a few Tory MPs, but just a few of them.
Apologies for my error on the rented property - but I'm sure someone said you did.
I suspect you would be wrong about Labour investment in the NHS - it would get spent on higher pay and they would have higher priorities to begin with as well.
I so hate to interrupt the merkelbashing, but the first series of "Star Trek: Discovery" is tonight, and the title sequence is online now (unless it's fake ). Have a butchers...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9E2olGqUlU
I still can't get over the fact that one of the cast members described herself as the first black lead in Star Trek, completely forgetting Avery Brooks as Sisko. Especially ironic given that star trek was supposed to be beyond all that stuff.
Tuvok, Uhura, Worf, LaForge... Millennials have no memory, bless 'em.
Has The Orville hit the UK? Mildly amusing for Trekkies ...
A little disingenuous to consider the French Senate contest an "election" as the electorate is heavily restricted and likely to favour established local parties such as the French centre right.
Fillon's figure to mop up an election that should have been his for the taking was perhaps a greater failure for centre right politics than either May or now Merkel failing to convert strong poll numbers into parliamentary majorities.
Fillon failed to win either pro-establishment change voters or anti-establishment change voters and was left only with party loyalists.
People go on about Corbyn Labour having the strongest membership of any centre left party in Europe but after tonight's result May's Tories also surprisingly have the highest voteshare of any centre right party in Europe
And yet May is weak and Merkel strong if you believe the political pundits. Hmmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.
Merkel is extremely weak now. This is a disaster for her.
I so hate to interrupt the merkelbashing, but the first series of "Star Trek: Discovery" is tonight, and the title sequence is online now (unless it's fake ). Have a butchers...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9E2olGqUlU
I still can't get over the fact that one of the cast members described herself as the first black lead in Star Trek, completely forgetting Avery Brooks as Sisko. Especially ironic given that star trek was supposed to be beyond all that stuff.
Tuvok, Uhura, Worf, LaForge... Millennials have no memory, bless 'em.
Has The Orville hit the UK? Mildly amusing for Trekkies ...
It's on YouTube. Surprisingly good. Have seen first three eps.
People go on about Corbyn Labour having the strongest membership of any centre left party in Europe but after tonight's result May's Tories also surprisingly have the highest voteshare of any centre right party in Europe
And yet May is weak and Merkel strong if you believe the political pundits. Hmmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.
Yes, May's 42% does not look so bad now, even if below expectations most centre right parties around the developed world would kill for that voteshare (plus to be fair to Corbyn most centre left parties would kill for 40% too)
I thought Macron's victory was meant to have drawn an ineradicable line under under Trumpy Brexity alt right naughtiness. This is not a happy result for the bien pensant.
But even the Macron victory was a rejection of politics as usual. It's not so much a right versus left issue, as an established parties versus upstarts. If there is any overall lesson it's that across the world parties and people who "can't win" are doing better than expected. People are fed up with parties of all colours and willing to give alternatives a go, or at least give the incumbents a kick up the arse.
Kicking the chair away from the establishment is a short lived atavistic pleasure. A bit like pissing your pants, a brief warm feeling followed by discomfort and embarrassment.
Pretty much. Look at Trump for example.
Or Corbyn, Leftist populusm to teach a lesson to the right wing populists? I'm in
I thought you were highly paid and rented out a property ? And an active Christian.
If so I'd be careful what you wish for
Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work. No rental income, so not an issue. I am an active Christian, but affiliated with the Christian Socialist movement rather than Opus Dei.
But I do not vote just my own interest. Corbyn or May? no contest! I do have some regard for a few Tory MPs, but just a few of them.
Apologies for my error on the rented property - but I'm sure someone said you did.
I suspect you would be wrong about Labour investment in the NHS - it would get spent on higher pay and they would have higher priorities to begin with as well.
Higher pay suits me
You're more likely to get a tax rise - the higher pay will be for the low paid.
Maybe Corbyn would go all Dave Nellist and reduce your pay to that of a skilled manual worker
I so hate to interrupt the merkelbashing, but the first series of "Star Trek: Discovery" is tonight, and the title sequence is online now (unless it's fake ). Have a butchers...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9E2olGqUlU
I still can't get over the fact that one of the cast members described herself as the first black lead in Star Trek, completely forgetting Avery Brooks as Sisko. Especially ironic given that star trek was supposed to be beyond all that stuff.
Tuvok, Uhura, Worf, LaForge... Millennials have no memory, bless 'em.
He mentioned him because he was the lead character in DS9. Like Kirk was head honcho in TOS and Picard in TNG.
I know, Sunil.
Let's start this again:
@RobD said: I still can't get over the fact that one of the cast members described herself as the first black lead in Star Trek, completely forgetting Avery Brooks as Sisko
People go on about Corbyn Labour having the strongest membership of any centre left party in Europe but after tonight's result May's Tories also surprisingly have the highest voteshare of any centre right party in Europe
And yet May is weak and Merkel strong if you believe the political pundits. Hmmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.
Merkel is extremely weak now. This is a disaster for her.
It must be bad when the BBC are saying it is bad for her.
My worry is the prospect of confrontation between the AFD and the left in the streets. Seems it is going on already.
People go on about Corbyn Labour having the strongest membership of any centre left party in Europe but after tonight's result May's Tories also surprisingly have the highest voteshare of any centre right party in Europe
And yet May is weak and Merkel strong if you believe the political pundits. Hmmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.
Merkel is extremely weak now. This is a disaster for her.
It must be bad when the BBC are saying it is bad for her.
My worry is the prospect of confrontation between the AFD and the left in the streets. Seems it is going on already.
This cannot be good for the markets tomorrow
What Germany needs surely is some 'strong and stable leadership'?
It would be hard not to laugh if it was not so serious!
People go on about Corbyn Labour having the strongest membership of any centre left party in Europe but after tonight's result May's Tories also surprisingly have the highest voteshare of any centre right party in Europe
And yet May is weak and Merkel strong if you believe the political pundits. Hmmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.
Merkel is extremely weak now. This is a disaster for her.
It must be bad when the BBC are saying it is bad for her.
My worry is the prospect of confrontation between the AFD and the left in the streets. Seems it is going on already.
This cannot be good for the markets tomorrow
If it results in the Euro falling, I think it is market turmoil I can live with...
I see that the Labour party is declining to debate Brexit at their conference. Will they decline to debate UBER too? Their policy on innovative change in the market has always been the same. Unions Block Every Reform or UBER for short.
The number of MPs keep increasing. It has now reached 690 from 598. The SPD is actually picking up seats from the CDU on the FPTP part of the elections. However, since overall it is proportional, therefore there will be many "overhang" seats.
BBC have AFD at 93 seats - isn't that a big blow for Merkel
You are not noticing the size of the Bundestag itself increasing as it is possible in the German system. It is 93 out of 690 now. So it remains at 13.5%
BBC have AFD at 93 seats - isn't that a big blow for Merkel
You are not noticing the size of the Bundestag itself increasing as it is possible in the German system. It is 93 out of 690 now. So it remains at 13.5%
What is the point of having a constituency element? This doesn't happen in Wales or Scotland.
BBC have AFD at 93 seats - isn't that a big blow for Merkel
You are not noticing the size of the Bundestag itself increasing as it is possible in the German system. It is 93 out of 690 now. So it remains at 13.5%
To be honest I know little about German politics but this seems like a big moment for Europe. Merkel dimished and confusion abounds
BBC have AFD at 93 seats - isn't that a big blow for Merkel
You are not noticing the size of the Bundestag itself increasing as it is possible in the German system. It is 93 out of 690 now. So it remains at 13.5%
What is the point of having a constituency element? This doesn't happen in Wales or Scotland.
The system was devised by the..........British !!! They have the famous constituency link so beloved of the FPTP supporters.
I thought Macron's victory was meant to have drawn an ineradicable line under under Trumpy Brexity alt right naughtiness. This is not a happy result for the bien pensant.
But even the Macron victory was a rejection of politics as usual. It's not so much a right versus left issue, as an established parties versus upstarts. If there is any overall lesson it's that across the world parties and people who "can't win" are doing better than expected. People are fed up with parties of all colours and willing to give alternatives a go, or at least give the incumbents a kick up the arse.
Kicking the chair away from the establishment is a short lived atavistic pleasure. A bit like pissing your pants, a brief warm feeling followed by discomfort and embarrassment.
Pretty much. Look at Trump for example.
Or Corbyn, Leftist populusm to teach a lesson to the right wing populists? I'm in
Yes, the populist left are alive and well. Labour moderates haven't a hope in hell of 'getting their party back'. And while I do sympathise with their plight to a degree, I also think they've brought a lot of it on themselves. Some of the people on the so-called right of Labour just have some unbelievable positions for people who call themselves left. I'm reminded of Oliver Kamm who supported the re-election of Bush in 2004. You don't have to be on the very left of the Labour Party to see the likes of him seeing themselves as 'left', or as 'Labour' as being ridiculous.
The Labour establishment forgot about fairness. The Conservative establishment forgot about aspiration.
More,evidence of freedom loving Brits.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41319683 "But in only two countries, China and the UK, did a majority want their governments to regulate the internet..."
BBC have AFD at 93 seats - isn't that a big blow for Merkel
You are not noticing the size of the Bundestag itself increasing as it is possible in the German system. It is 93 out of 690 now. So it remains at 13.5%
What is the point of having a constituency element? This doesn't happen in Wales or Scotland.
The system was devised by the..........British !!! They have the famous constituency link so beloved of the FPTP supporters.
Sounds like the bill for the Bundestag will be going up.
BBC have AFD at 93 seats - isn't that a big blow for Merkel
You are not noticing the size of the Bundestag itself increasing as it is possible in the German system. It is 93 out of 690 now. So it remains at 13.5%
What is the point of having a constituency element? This doesn't happen in Wales or Scotland.
The system was devised by the..........British !!! They have the famous constituency link so beloved of the FPTP supporters.
I am rather jealous of the Germans with their range of parties to vote for, with wasted votes. I suspect that I would vote Die Grune there. PR is such a better system.
What this says for us is that UKIP or a successor party will ultimately make the leap and become an overtly anti-Muslim party, even if that doesn't happen this time around. Of course FPTP limits their chances, but no reason to think that such a party in the UK, if it can maintain a fair appearance of civic respectability can not hit underlying support of 15%, perhaps even more in a serious Brexit or Corbyn triggered crisis. The BNP, with very little by way of civic fig leaf, polled 7% a couple of Euros ago.
That could be enough for strong presences in the Welsh assembly, plenty of councillors, and AV second round places in some mayoral elections (Middleborough and Doncaster spring to mind). Winning any mayoral polls would be a stretch, but the lack of a formal second round, as in the French presidency, may be both a blessing (less chance for serious street protest) and a curse (little realisation of the possibility or need for tactical voting to prevent a hard right mayor until too late).
People go on about Corbyn Labour having the strongest membership of any centre left party in Europe but after tonight's result May's Tories also surprisingly have the highest voteshare of any centre right party in Europe
And yet May is weak and Merkel strong if you believe the political pundits. Hmmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.
Yes, May's 42% does not look so bad now, even if below expectations most centre right parties around the developed world would kill for that voteshare (plus to be fair to Corbyn most centre left parties would kill for 40% too)
Yes but has to be put into the context of our FPTP system which discourages wasted votes for minor parties.
More,evidence of freedom loving Brits.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41319683 "But in only two countries, China and the UK, did a majority want their governments to regulate the internet..."
I suspect that is in part because our papers are full of rubbish stories about terrorists buying the bits to make bombs from Amazon, as though the retailer is somehow relevant and explosives can't be made from widely available materials.
People go on about Corbyn Labour having the strongest membership of any centre left party in Europe but after tonight's result May's Tories also surprisingly have the highest voteshare of any centre right party in Europe
And yet May is weak and Merkel strong if you believe the political pundits. Hmmm, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that.
Yes, May's 42% does not look so bad now, even if below expectations most centre right parties around the developed world would kill for that voteshare (plus to be fair to Corbyn most centre left parties would kill for 40% too)
Yes but has to be put into the context of our FPTP system which discourages wasted votes for minor parties.
More,evidence of freedom loving Brits.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41319683 "But in only two countries, China and the UK, did a majority want their governments to regulate the internet..."
I suspect that is in part because our papers are full of rubbish stories about terrorists buying the bits to make bombs from Amazon, as though the retailer is somehow relevant and explosives can't be made from widely available materials.
Also, terrorism cannot occur without Facebook. God knows how the IRA ever got anything done.
Am I right in thinking that little old Brexity xenophobic horrid Britain has a much lower percentage of far right voters than full on EU paragons of virtue such as Germany and France?
Am I right in thinking that little old Brexity xenophobic horrid Britain has a much lower percentage of far right voters than full on EU paragons of virtue such as Germany and France?
No. in PR elections like the Euros the far right gets more support. Quite a lot on the far right vote Tory in FPFT elections.
More,evidence of freedom loving Brits.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41319683 "But in only two countries, China and the UK, did a majority want their governments to regulate the internet..."
I suspect that is in part because our papers are full of rubbish stories about terrorists buying the bits to make bombs from Amazon, as though the retailer is somehow relevant and explosives can't be made from widely available materials.
Also, terrorism cannot occur without Facebook. God knows how the IRA ever got anything done.
Surely some scamp will dig out that Twitter exchange regarding Gerry Adam's Christmas lights to definitively prove otherwise.
Am I right in thinking that little old Brexity xenophobic horrid Britain has a much lower percentage of far right voters than full on EU paragons of virtue such as Germany and France?
No. in PR elections like the Euros the far right gets more support. Quite a lot on the far right vote Tory in FPFT elections.
I think that is far too simplistic a way of looking at it.
Labour voters in certain parts of the country have often lent support to the NF in the past. And we have seen a significant number of UKIP votes coming from previous Labour voters.
So perhaps we need to stop looking at things in strictly left-right terms. It is often more like a Möbius strip!
Also, terrorism cannot occur without Facebook. God knows how the IRA ever got anything done.
Yes it's strange how we had more terrorism before the Internet was widely available, and more people were reading newspapers back then as well.
I think the nature of terrorism has somewhat shifted. The word may be the same but the acts attributed it have changed in terms of scope, style and planning.
What this says for us is that UKIP or a successor party will ultimately make the leap and become an overtly anti-Muslim party, even if that doesn't happen this time around. Of course FPTP limits their chances, but no reason to think that such a party in the UK, if it can maintain a fair appearance of civic respectability can not hit underlying support of 15%, perhaps even more in a serious Brexit or Corbyn triggered crisis. The BNP, with very little by way of civic fig leaf, polled 7% a couple of Euros ago....
In principle I think you are correct, but the key proviso is your phrase 'if it can maintain a fair appearance of civic respectability'. Very unlikely in the case of UKIP now; just look at the leadership candidates.
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
Maybe, maybe not.
I have had enough of the Tories though. They need teaching a lesson, and thanks to the June election, Jezza is in pole position to do so. I am sure that a Corbyn government will get some things wrong, but they could reset a lot of things in five years back onto the right path.
I have had enough of the Tories though. They need teaching a lesson, and thanks to the June election, Jezza is in pole position to do so. I am sure that a Corbyn government will get some things wrong, but they could reset a lot of things in five years back onto the right path.
I am sure they can reset a lot of things. 'Back on to the right path' is another matter altogether. But perhaps you need the lesson direct from experience today rather than experience elsewhere, and here in the 1970s.
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
Maybe, maybe not.
I have had enough of the Tories though. They need teaching a lesson, and thanks to the June election, Jezza is in pole position to do so. I am sure that a Corbyn government will get some things wrong, but they could reset a lot of things in five years back onto the right path.
Evening. Just catching up, the German election seems not to be going quite according to plan for Mrs Merkel. From the data so far it seems remarkably similar to what happened in the UK in June and NZ only the other day.
I guess it’s either the ‘Jamaica’ coalition or a second election from here?
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
Maybe, maybe not.
I have had enough of the Tories though. They need teaching a lesson, and thanks to the June election, Jezza is in pole position to do so. I am sure that a Corbyn government will get some things wrong, but they could reset a lot of things in five years back onto the right path.
One word - Venezuela
If you're considering emigration, it seems a rather poor choice, Big G...
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
I am sure he'd be right to think that - who do you think voters trust most with the NHS, the Tories or Labour?
You think the voters are infallible? It's a view, I suppose. Were they infallible in the referendum, in your opinion?
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
I think the nature of terrorism has somewhat shifted. The word may be the same but the acts attributed it have changed in terms of scope, style and planning.
Sure, but the idea that the Internet is the problem is bonkers. Terrorism has existed for a very, very long time, and it has thrived in much less technologically sophisticated eras than now.
If terrorists avoided the Internet, because it was no longer a "safe space", I suspect that they would actually prove harder to catch.
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
Maybe, maybe not.
I have had enough of the Tories though. They need teaching a lesson, and thanks to the June election, Jezza is in pole position to do so. I am sure that a Corbyn government will get some things wrong, but they could reset a lot of things in five years back onto the right path.
One word - Venezuela
If you're considering emigration, it seems a rather poor choice, Big G...
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
The Corbynistas can't have it both ways - if Blair was a Tory, then you need to put the Blair years in the Tory column, right?
Read this about the AFD. I don't consider the AfD as being particularly Nazi or far right. They are just saying 'no more muslim migration'.
Irrespective of what has happened in Germany over the last few years, it is legitimate that this viewpoint should be represented in the political system, and an open discussion must be had about the future of migration. To try and close down the viewpoint as being wrong in principle is fundamentally anti democratic. It makes little sense that there is no centre right party that can represent a more moderated point of view, the main centre right party being the CDU who are led by Merkel.
Read this about the AFD. I don't consider the AfD as being particularly Nazi or far right. They are just saying 'no more muslim migration'.
Irrespective of what has happened in Germany over the last few years, it is legitimate that this viewpoint should be represented in the political system, and an open discussion must be had about the future of migration. To try and close down the viewpoint as being wrong in principle is fundamentally anti democratic. It makes little sense that there is no centre right party that can represent a more moderated point of view, the main centre right party being the CDU who are led by Merkel.
But it is the easy way to attack them. Don't challenge them on the ideas - put a label on them and the media will do the rest.
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
If a pay rise for the nurses and a huge increase in the number of pen-pushers counts as ‘investment’, then maybe. Any pay rises heading to doctors will likely be swallowed up and more by their tax rises - especially on their sideline private work.
Of course, all this needs to be paid for from somewhere, I wonder what the feverant Corbyn supporters think is an acceptable level of current government borrowing outside a recession?
I think the nature of terrorism has somewhat shifted. The word may be the same but the acts attributed it have changed in terms of scope, style and planning.
Sure, but the idea that the Internet is the problem is bonkers. Terrorism has existed for a very, very long time, and it has thrived in much less technologically sophisticated eras than now.
If terrorists avoided the Internet, because it was no longer a "safe space", I suspect that they would actually prove harder to catch.
From speaking to young people (those who have grown-up with it), the rhetoric around controlling the Internet is entirely alien and, frankly creepy. None think it is practically feasible without a massive curtailing of civil liberties, This is another manifestation of the generation gap. Any government attempting this can kiss goodbye to many, many young voters.
Read this about the AFD. I don't consider the AfD as being particularly Nazi or far right. They are just saying 'no more muslim migration'.
Irrespective of what has happened in Germany over the last few years, it is legitimate that this viewpoint should be represented in the political system, and an open discussion must be had about the future of migration. To try and close down the viewpoint as being wrong in principle is fundamentally anti democratic. It makes little sense that there is no centre right party that can represent a more moderated point of view, the main centre right party being the CDU who are led by Merkel.
But it is the easy way to attack them. Don't challenge them on the ideas - put a label on them and the media will do the rest.
I think that may describe the treatment of UKIP for many years, and look what happened in the end.
Of course, all this needs to be paid for from somewhere, I wonder what the feverant Corbyn supporters think is an acceptable level of current government borrowing outside a recession?
My dear fellow, what a naive question. The higher the borrowing, the better, in all circumstances. The supply is infinite, although of course those who are lending it (such as workers' pension funds) are capitalist scum leeching off the workers.
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
If a pay rise for the nurses and a huge increase in the number of pen-pushers counts as ‘investment’, then maybe. Any pay rises heading to doctors will likely be swallowed up and more by their tax rises - especially on their sideline private work.
Of course, all this needs to be paid for from somewhere, I wonder what the feverant Corbyn supporters think is an acceptable level of current government borrowing outside a recession?
It's not just spending versus borrowing - the government has the power to determine tax levels too!
PS despite appearances, I am not a fervant Corbyn supporter, but the Labour manifesto had a lot in it I liked.
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
You might be happy, or at least you might be happy in advance. I doubt very much that you'd be happy with the consequences once they happened - strikes, unemployment, tax revenues crashing etc etc.
However, you've evaded my point. Whatever else the Corbyn manifesto was, it wasn't anything like the programmes of the Labour governments of the past which you cited as evidence. Which might be good for increasing real-terms spending on the NHS: Corbyn's policies, or Blair's (the latter implementing Ken Clarke's financial plans for the first term, remember)? You can't have it both ways.
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Of course, all this needs to be paid for from somewhere, I wonder what the feverant Corbyn supporters think is an acceptable level of current government borrowing outside a recession?
My dear fellow, what a naive question. The higher the borrowing, the better, in all circumstances. The supply is infinite, although of course those who are lending it (such as workers' pension funds) are capitalist scum leeching off the workers.
Of course, you’re right. Winter is summer, right is wrong, truth is lies and debt is investment! Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm were instruction manuals.
The election follows 8 years of the Grand Coalition and 12 years of Merkel as Chancellor. Are we seeing anything other than a long standing government recieving a sharp anti government swing after a decent period in power ? Yes and No. The swing for m Grand Coalition to opposition parties is stark but that happens in democracies all the time. The differing factor is that most though not all ( Left, Greens and FDP are all up ) of that sent is going to the AfD.
We shouldn't deconstruct the AfD surge. It's big. But equally it will get disproportionate notice because of novelty, passing the 5% threshold for the first time and Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties. I'm not sure we can strictly apply Godwin's Law to discussing German elections. The comparisons may be gross exaggerations but are never ridiculous. Hitler was elected.
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
If a pay rise for the nurses and a huge increase in the number of pen-pushers counts as ‘investment’, then maybe. Any pay rises heading to doctors will likely be swallowed up and more by their tax rises - especially on their sideline private work.
Of course, all this needs to be paid for from somewhere, I wonder what the feverant Corbyn supporters think is an acceptable level of current government borrowing outside a recession?
The problem of penpushers is that they were needed to administer the internal market, privatised outsourcing and centrally driven targets. Abolish those and be rid of the pen pushers.
Though there are some oddly Stalinist purges going on at the moment. CEOs being sacked for failing to meet targets. The singing though is odder still...
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
I am sure he'd be right to think that - who do you think voters trust most with the NHS, the Tories or Labour?
You think the voters are infallible? It's a view, I suppose. Were they infallible in the referendum, in your opinion?
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Ben - I've looked at that image for some time, and unless I'm being daft it doesn't bear out what you are saying - I make it 7 out of 10 of the top 10 are in Labour years.
Also, a worrying graph, no? Pretty much ALWAYS real terms increases in health spending. Can't go on indefinitely, surely?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
You might be happy, or at least you might be happy in advance. I doubt very much that you'd be happy with the consequences once they happened - strikes, unemployment, tax revenues crashing etc etc.
However, you've evaded my point. Whatever else the Corbyn manifesto was, it wasn't anything like the programmes of the Labour governments of the past which you cited as evidence. Which might be good for increasing real-terms spending on the NHS: Corbyn's policies, or Blair's (the latter implementing Ken Clarke's financial plans for the first term, remember)? You can't have it both ways.
Er... I don't really see them as opposites. The Blair government did a lot of good, socially progressive, invested in public services and the economy grew. He fucked up over Iraq and his reputation will be forever tarnished because of it. But the labour government was streets ahead of the piss-poor administrations we have had since 2010. The Corbyn Labour manifesto is more left-wing for sure, but not imo outrageously so.
We'll not convince each other but this is my opinion.
The election follows 8 years of the Grand Coalition and 12 years of Merkel as Chancellor. Are we seeing anything other than a long standing government recieving a sharp anti government swing after a decent period in power ? Yes and No. The swing for m Grand Coalition to opposition parties is stark but that happens in democracies all the time. The differing factor is that most though not all ( Left, Greens and FDP are all up ) of that sent is going to the AfD.
We shouldn't deconstruct the AfD surge. It's big. But equally it will get disproportionate notice because of novelty, passing the 5% threshold for the first time and Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties. I'm not sure we can strictly apply Godwin's Law to discussing German elections. The comparisons may be gross exaggerations but are never ridiculous. Hitler was elected.
The Green Party calling the AfD Nazis are playing into their hands. As the EU Referendum showed it's hard to convince people to vote for you after you've insulted them.
Comments
But I do not vote just my own interest. Corbyn or May? no contest! I do have some regard for a few Tory MPs, but just a few of them.
Apologies in advance if it is blindingly obvious.
@RobD said: I still can't get over the fact that one of the cast members described herself as the first black lead in Star Trek, completely forgetting Avery Brooks as Sisko
Fillon's figure to mop up an election that should have been his for the taking was perhaps a greater failure for centre right politics than either May or now Merkel failing to convert strong poll numbers into parliamentary majorities.
H = eighth letter of alphabet so 88 = HH or Heil Hitler !
http://wahlatlas.net/btw/17/#!wkrGewinner17
https://www.bundeswahlleiter.de/en/bundestagswahlen/2017/ergebnisse/ergebniseingaenge.html
I suspect you would be wrong about Labour investment in the NHS - it would get spent on higher pay and they would have higher priorities to begin with as well.
It was a lamentable performance.
Maybe Corbyn would go all Dave Nellist and reduce your pay to that of a skilled manual worker
My worry is the prospect of confrontation between the AFD and the left in the streets. Seems it is going on already.
This cannot be good for the markets tomorrow
It would be hard not to laugh if it was not so serious!
https://twitter.com/CasMudde/status/912042441724825601
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Party_(1947)
and which was part of the Adenauer government from 1949 to 1960:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Adenauer_cabinet
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41319683
"But in only two countries, China and the UK, did a majority want their governments to regulate the internet..."
That could be enough for strong presences in the Welsh assembly, plenty of councillors, and AV second round places in some mayoral elections (Middleborough and Doncaster spring to mind). Winning any mayoral polls would be a stretch, but the lack of a formal second round, as in the French presidency, may be both a blessing (less chance for serious street protest) and a curse (little realisation of the possibility or need for tactical voting to prevent a hard right mayor until too late).
https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2017/sep/24/german-elections-2017-latest-results-live-merkel-bundestag-afd
Labour voters in certain parts of the country have often lent support to the NF in the past. And we have seen a significant number of UKIP votes coming from previous Labour voters.
So perhaps we need to stop looking at things in strictly left-right terms. It is often more like a Möbius strip!
I have had enough of the Tories though. They need teaching a lesson, and thanks to the June election, Jezza is in pole position to do so. I am sure that a Corbyn government will get some things wrong, but they could reset a lot of things in five years back onto the right path.
I guess it’s either the ‘Jamaica’ coalition or a second election from here?
(source: https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2016/05/how-does-this-years-nhs-budget-compare-historically)
If terrorists avoided the Internet, because it was no longer a "safe space", I suspect that they would actually prove harder to catch.
The Corbynistas can't have it both ways - if Blair was a Tory, then you need to put the Blair years in the Tory column, right?
Read this about the AFD. I don't consider the AfD as being particularly Nazi or far right. They are just saying 'no more muslim migration'.
Irrespective of what has happened in Germany over the last few years, it is legitimate that this viewpoint should be represented in the political system, and an open discussion must be had about the future of migration. To try and close down the viewpoint as being wrong in principle is fundamentally anti democratic. It makes little sense that there is no centre right party that can represent a more moderated point of view, the main centre right party being the CDU who are led by Merkel.
Of course, all this needs to be paid for from somewhere, I wonder what the feverant Corbyn supporters think is an acceptable level of current government borrowing outside a recession?
Any government attempting this can kiss goodbye to many, many young voters.
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
PS despite appearances, I am not a fervant Corbyn supporter, but the Labour manifesto had a lot in it I liked.
However, you've evaded my point. Whatever else the Corbyn manifesto was, it wasn't anything like the programmes of the Labour governments of the past which you cited as evidence. Which might be good for increasing real-terms spending on the NHS: Corbyn's policies, or Blair's (the latter implementing Ken Clarke's financial plans for the first term, remember)? You can't have it both ways.
Of course, you’re right. Winter is summer, right is wrong, truth is lies and debt is investment! Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm were instruction manuals.
We shouldn't deconstruct the AfD surge. It's big. But equally it will get disproportionate notice because of novelty, passing the 5% threshold for the first time and Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties. I'm not sure we can strictly apply Godwin's Law to discussing German elections. The comparisons may be gross exaggerations but are never ridiculous. Hitler was elected.
Though there are some oddly Stalinist purges going on at the moment. CEOs being sacked for failing to meet targets. The singing though is odder still...
https://www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/nhs-leaders-chant-we-can-do-this-at-aande-improvement-summit/7020633.article
Also, a worrying graph, no? Pretty much ALWAYS real terms increases in health spending. Can't go on indefinitely, surely?
We'll not convince each other but this is my opinion.