The election follows 8 years of the Grand Coalition and 12 years of Merkel as Chancellor. Are we seeing anything other than a long standing government recieving a sharp anti government swing after a decent period in power ? Yes and No. The swing for m Grand Coalition to opposition parties is stark but that happens in democracies all the time. The differing factor is that most though not all ( Left, Greens and FDP are all up ) of that sent is going to the AfD.
We shouldn't deconstruct the AfD surge. It's big. But equally it will get disproportionate notice because of novelty, passing the 5% threshold for the first time and Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties. I'm not sure we can strictly apply Godwin's Law to discussing German elections. The comparisons may be gross exaggerations but are never ridiculous. Hitler was elected.
"Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties."
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
If a pay rise for the nurses and a huge increase in the number of pen-pushers counts as ‘investment’, then maybe. Any pay rises heading to doctors will likely be swallowed up and more by their tax rises - especially on their sideline private work.
Of course, all this needs to be paid for from somewhere, I wonder what the feverant Corbyn supporters think is an acceptable level of current government borrowing outside a recession?
Do you think a single Corbyn supporter has the slightest clue that that's even a question that should be asked?
The election follows 8 years of the Grand Coalition and 12 years of Merkel as Chancellor. Are we seeing anything other than a long standing government recieving a sharp anti government swing after a decent period in power ? Yes and No. The swing for m Grand Coalition to opposition parties is stark but that happens in democracies all the time. The differing factor is that most though not all ( Left, Greens and FDP are all up ) of that sent is going to the AfD.
We shouldn't deconstruct the AfD surge. It's big. But equally it will get disproportionate notice because of novelty, passing the 5% threshold for the first time and Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties. I'm not sure we can strictly apply Godwin's Law to discussing German elections. The comparisons may be gross exaggerations but are never ridiculous. Hitler was elected.
The Green Party calling the AfD Nazis are playing into their hands. As the EU Referendum showed it's hard to convince people to vote for you after you've insulted them.
Not sure the Greens and AfD are fishing in the same electoral waters. But it was crass to say the least!
The Green Party calling the AfD Nazis are playing into their hands. As the EU Referendum showed it's hard to convince people to vote for you after you've insulted them.
The election follows 8 years of the Grand Coalition and 12 years of Merkel as Chancellor. Are we seeing anything other than a long standing government recieving a sharp anti government swing after a decent period in power ? Yes and No. The swing for m Grand Coalition to opposition parties is stark but that happens in democracies all the time. The differing factor is that most though not all ( Left, Greens and FDP are all up ) of that sent is going to the AfD.
We shouldn't deconstruct the AfD surge. It's big. But equally it will get disproportionate notice because of novelty, passing the 5% threshold for the first time and Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties. I'm not sure we can strictly apply Godwin's Law to discussing German elections. The comparisons may be gross exaggerations but are never ridiculous. Hitler was elected.
The Green Party calling the AfD Nazis are playing into their hands. As the EU Referendum showed it's hard to convince people to vote for you after you've insulted them.
Not sure the Greens and AfD are fishing in the same electoral waters. But it was crass to say the least!
The greens have to go into the governing coalition. It was a stupid idea.
The election follows 8 years of the Grand Coalition and 12 years of Merkel as Chancellor. Are we seeing anything other than a long standing government recieving a sharp anti government swing after a decent period in power ? Yes and No. The swing for m Grand Coalition to opposition parties is stark but that happens in democracies all the time. The differing factor is that most though not all ( Left, Greens and FDP are all up ) of that sent is going to the AfD.
We shouldn't deconstruct the AfD surge. It's big. But equally it will get disproportionate notice because of novelty, passing the 5% threshold for the first time and Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties. I'm not sure we can strictly apply Godwin's Law to discussing German elections. The comparisons may be gross exaggerations but are never ridiculous. Hitler was elected.
The Green Party calling the AfD Nazis are playing into their hands. As the EU Referendum showed it's hard to convince people to vote for you after you've insulted them.
Not sure the Greens and AfD are fishing in the same electoral waters. But it was crass to say the least!
Apologies; I was a little careless with my words. Going overboard on attacking the AfD will rebound on all the establishment parties, because current AfD supporters will see it as an attack on themselves.
The Green Party calling the AfD Nazis are playing into their hands. As the EU Referendum showed it's hard to convince people to vote for you after you've insulted them.
The election follows 8 years of the Grand Coalition and 12 years of Merkel as Chancellor. Are we seeing anything other than a long standing government recieving a sharp anti government swing after a decent period in power ? Yes and No. The swing for m Grand Coalition to opposition parties is stark but that happens in democracies all the time. The differing factor is that most though not all ( Left, Greens and FDP are all up ) of that sent is going to the AfD.
We shouldn't deconstruct the AfD surge. It's big. But equally it will get disproportionate notice because of novelty, passing the 5% threshold for the first time and Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties. I'm not sure we can strictly apply Godwin's Law to discussing German elections. The comparisons may be gross exaggerations but are never ridiculous. Hitler was elected.
The Green Party calling the AfD Nazis are playing into their hands. As the EU Referendum showed it's hard to convince people to vote for you after you've insulted them.
Not sure the Greens and AfD are fishing in the same electoral waters. But it was crass to say the least!
Apologies; I was a little careless with my words. Going overboard on attacking the AfD will rebound on all the establishment parties, because current AfD supporters will see it as an attack on themselves.
No, no, no. I did not mean to imply YOU were being crass. I meant the Greens. Any German Party should be careful about inflammatory language. The AfD may be extreme, but Nazi they are not. That is a different level of extreme.
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
I am sure he'd be right to think that - who do you think voters trust most with the NHS, the Tories or Labour?
You think the voters are infallible? It's a view, I suppose. Were they infallible in the referendum, in your opinion?
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Ben - I've looked at that image for some time, and unless I'm being daft it doesn't bear out what you are saying - I make it 7 out of 10 of the top 10 are in Labour years.
Also, a worrying graph, no? Pretty much ALWAYS real terms increases in health spending. Can't go on indefinitely, surely?
Yes apologies you're right, it's 7/10 - sorry.
It's a good question re always real terms increases. A few thoughts (and I'm no expert of course):
Spending could indefinitely rise above inflation to the extent there is growth in the economy, so that might mean an average 2-3% real terms spend increase has been sustainable historically (not since 2010 sadly).
Maybe we just need to spend more of our national wealth share on health as the demographics age. Appreciate there will be a limit to that eventually, but what is more important than health?
We still have a very cheap health service in the country compared to most other developed countries - certainly much cheaper than the US!
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
The election follows 8 years of the Grand Coalition and 12 years of Merkel as Chancellor. Are we seeing anything other than a long standing government recieving a sharp anti government swing after a decent period in power ? Yes and No. The swing for m Grand Coalition to opposition parties is stark but that happens in democracies all the time. The differing factor is that most though not all ( Left, Greens and FDP are all up ) of that sent is going to the AfD.
We shouldn't deconstruct the AfD surge. It's big. But equally it will get disproportionate notice because of novelty, passing the 5% threshold for the first time and Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties. I'm not sure we can strictly apply Godwin's Law to discussing German elections. The comparisons may be gross exaggerations but are never ridiculous. Hitler was elected.
The Green Party calling the AfD Nazis are playing into their hands. As the EU Referendum showed it's hard to convince people to vote for you after you've insulted them.
Not sure the Greens and AfD are fishing in the same electoral waters. But it was crass to say the least!
Apologies; I was a little careless with my words. Going overboard on attacking the AfD will rebound on all the establishment parties, because current AfD supporters will see it as an attack on themselves.
No, no, no. I did not mean to imply YOU were being crass. I meant the Greens. Any German Party should be careful about inflammatory language. The AfD may be extreme, but Nazi they are not. That is a different level of extreme.
There was a revealing exchange with Alexander Gauland (of 'proud of the achievements of German soldiers in two world wars' fame) on one of the post-election discussions. He was asked whether his party had any constructive policies about how to make Germany better to which he responded that this is not his party's job. After an audibly shocked reaction from the studio audience he snapped at them, "You can all stop laughing!" using the familiar 'du' form of address.
The election follows 8 years of the Grand Coalition and 12 years of Merkel as Chancellor. Are we seeing anything other than a long standing government recieving a sharp anti government swing after a decent period in power ? Yes and No. The swing for m Grand Coalition to opposition parties is stark but that happens in democracies all the time. The differing factor is that most though not all ( Left, Greens and FDP are all up ) of that sent is going to the AfD.
We shouldn't deconstruct the AfD surge. It's big. But equally it will get disproportionate notice because of novelty, passing the 5% threshold for the first time and Germany's suboptimal record n far right political parties. I'm not sure we can strictly apply Godwin's Law to discussing German elections. The comparisons may be gross exaggerations but are never ridiculous. Hitler was elected.
The Green Party calling the AfD Nazis are playing into their hands. As the EU Referendum showed it's hard to convince people to vote for you after you've insulted them.
Not sure the Greens and AfD are fishing in the same electoral waters. But it was crass to say the least!
Apologies; I was a little careless with my words. Going overboard on attacking the AfD will rebound on all the establishment parties, because current AfD supporters will see it as an attack on themselves.
No, no, no. I did not mean to imply YOU were being crass. I meant the Greens. Any German Party should be careful about inflammatory language. The AfD may be extreme, but Nazi they are not. That is a different level of extreme.
There was a revealing exchange with Alexander Gauland (of 'proud of the achievements of German soldiers in two world wars' fame) on one of the post-election discussions. He was asked whether his party had any constructive policies about how to make Germany better to which he responded that this is not his party's job. After an audibly shocked reaction from the studio audience he snapped at them, "You can all stop laughing!" using the familiar 'du' form of address.
OK. But they have not yet burned down the Reichstag or put anyone in a concentration camp. Name-calling was a strategy of the Tory party at the recent election. Not sure it works.
....Highly paid, but public sector, so swings and roundabouts for me. Less take home pay, but better investmentat work.....
Dear me. The sad thing is that I'm quite sure you sincerely believe that a Corbyn government will produce more 'investment' in the NHS.
If a pay rise for the nurses and a huge increase in the number of pen-pushers counts as ‘investment’, then maybe. Any pay rises heading to doctors will likely be swallowed up and more by their tax rises - especially on their sideline private work.
Of course, all this needs to be paid for from somewhere, I wonder what the feverant Corbyn supporters think is an acceptable level of current government borrowing outside a recession?
Do you think a single Corbyn supporter has the slightest clue that that's even a question that should be asked?
Ha, maybe a few dozen, out of the 12m that voted for him in June?
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
@Benpointer That's an excellent point Ben. It's often misunderstood ( and on the right often wilfully so ) how cheap the NHS is by international standards. A chunk of right wing theology is wedded to the ' Pen Pusher ' and ' unsustainable ' nonsense so they ignore the stark facts of what the NHS costs as a % of GDP and how that compares internationally.
It's facing huge challenges now and needs a new and adjusted settlement. But the idea the NHS s either expensive or bloated for what it does is absurd. If the Tories were serious they'd call the NHS " the world's cheapest Health insurance " recasting it as both a product and celebrating it's thrift.
But there is a reason they are called the " Stupid Party ". That they can be tarred with an anti NHS brush is much more to do with their rhetoric than their record in office.
So not only have we got a cowering and pathetic waste of space "leading" the UK in the form of drippy Theresa we've now basically got a lame duck leading Germany as well.
So not only have we got a cowering and pathetic waste of space "leading" the UK in the form of drippy Theresa we've now basically got a lame duck leading Germany as well.
Brilliant!
That's no way to talk about "the new leader of the free world" as she has been called by some in recent weeks.
Surely a continuation of Grand Coalition? For the last time as on current trends if that does happen then even a grand coalition won't get 50% next time at this rate.
So not only have we got a cowering and pathetic waste of space "leading" the UK in the form of drippy Theresa we've now basically got a lame duck leading Germany as well.
Brilliant!
No.
Theresa May is a weak leader for requiring DUP support.
Angela Merkel is a strong leader for having to require the support of an assortment of political parties.
@Benpointer That's an excellent point Ben. It's often misunderstood ( and on the right often wilfully so ) how cheap the NHS is by international standards. A chunk of right wing theology is wedded to the ' Pen Pusher ' and ' unsustainable ' nonsense so they ignore the stark facts of what the NHS costs as a % of GDP and how that compares internationally.
It's facing huge challenges now and needs a new and adjusted settlement. But the idea the NHS s either expensive or bloated for what it does is absurd. If the Tories were serious they'd call the NHS " the world's cheapest Health insurance " recasting it as both a product and celebrating it's thrift.
But there is a reason they are called the " Stupid Party ". That they can be tarred with an anti NHS brush is much more to do with their rhetoric than their record in office.
Indeed, but many Tories are still following a deluded 'private enterprise always knows best, the market is king' philosophy. However, the pendulum is inexorably swinging back to a more balanced mixed-economy view... Some things best left to free enterprise; some things best run as a public service by the state.
@Benpointer That's an excellent point Ben. It's often misunderstood ( and on the right often wilfully so ) how cheap the NHS is by international standards. A chunk of right wing theology is wedded to the ' Pen Pusher ' and ' unsustainable ' nonsense so they ignore the stark facts of what the NHS costs as a % of GDP and how that compares internationally.
It's facing huge challenges now and needs a new and adjusted settlement. But the idea the NHS s either expensive or bloated for what it does is absurd. If the Tories were serious they'd call the NHS " the world's cheapest Health insurance " recasting it as both a product and celebrating it's thrift.
But there is a reason they are called the " Stupid Party ". That they can be tarred with an anti NHS brush is much more to do with their rhetoric than their record in office.
Indeed, but many Tories are still following a deluded 'private enterprise always knows best, the market is king' philosophy. However, the pendulum is inexorably swinging back to a more balanced mixed-economy view... Some things best left to free enterprise; some things best run as a public service by the state.
Only if free enterprise florishes can the state pay for public services
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
It appears Merkel has considered a minority government and put the feelers out on it this evening. Reportedly, shes been told to go try to find a coalition first.
Will have to be Jamaica. FDP and Greens will extract a high price for having to pretend to like each other. But secretly love it, cos they'll get Ministries and their pet projects though. In the meantime, the SPD will spend 4 years shouting from the sidelines, and girding themselves for a run at a non-Merkel led 2021 election. Or I could be wrong.
So not only have we got a cowering and pathetic waste of space "leading" the UK in the form of drippy Theresa we've now basically got a lame duck leading Germany as well.
Brilliant!
No.
Theresa May is a weak leader for requiring DUP support.
Angela Merkel is a strong leader for having to require the support of an assortment of political parties.
Well blowing her majority in June was bad enough but Theresa May's real problem is more the grovelling on her hands and knees to Juncker and co on Friday, not to mention squandering away unlimited amounts of UK tax payers money to keep locked in EU purgatory years and years and years...
Oh and the fact she hood-winked me into voting for her by saying Brexit means Brexit and all that cr*p and now she's doing an about turn.
I don't take kindly to being lied to... I want her gone!
Surely a continuation of Grand Coalition? For the last time as on current trends if that does happen then even a grand coalition won't get 50% next time at this rate.
They've already ruled it out and sad they are going back into opposition. Which seems reasonable after 8 years of carrying the Can. It's the Greens and FDP's turn to take the flak now.
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
How does one upload a photo btw. Tried on the iPad, but no good.
Surely a continuation of Grand Coalition? For the last time as on current trends if that does happen then even a grand coalition won't get 50% next time at this rate.
They can't. If the SPD go into a coalition it means that AfD become the official opposition party which gives them a huge role in German public life.
@Benpointer That's an excellent point Ben. It's often misunderstood ( and on the right often wilfully so ) how cheap the NHS is by international standards. A chunk of right wing theology is wedded to the ' Pen Pusher ' and ' unsustainable ' nonsense so they ignore the stark facts of what the NHS costs as a % of GDP and how that compares internationally.
It's facing huge challenges now and needs a new and adjusted settlement. But the idea the NHS s either expensive or bloated for what it does is absurd. If the Tories were serious they'd call the NHS " the world's cheapest Health insurance " recasting it as both a product and celebrating it's thrift.
But there is a reason they are called the " Stupid Party ". That they can be tarred with an anti NHS brush is much more to do with their rhetoric than their record in office.
Indeed, but many Tories are still following a deluded 'private enterprise always knows best, the market is king' philosophy. However, the pendulum is inexorably swinging back to a more balanced mixed-economy view... Some things best left to free enterprise; some things best run as a public service by the state.
Only if free enterprise florishes can the state pay for public services
I agree with that but... where we went wrong was in assuming everything needed to be tendered out to free enterprise, and by trying to create artificial competition in services that are natural monopolies (e.g. utilities). We need both free enterprise and centrally run public services.
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
Ben - so sorry about your loss -- all our family adore animals especially dogs. We have loved and lost so many but it was always a priviledge to have had them integral to our family. We do not have a pet at home anymore but we do, my wife especially, interact with all dogs and my wife was in her element this morning as virtually the whole of Llandudno, with their dogs, took to the new lifeboat station to welcome our new shannon class lifeboat 'William F Yates'
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
Ben - so sorry about your loss -- all our family adore animals especially dogs. We have loved and lost so many but it was always a priviledge to have had them integral to our family. We do not have a pet at home anymore but we do, my wife especially, interact with all dogs and my wife was in her element this morning as virtually the whole of Llandudno, with their dogs, took to the new lifeboat station to welcome our new shannon class lifeboat 'William F Yates'
My avatar is my latest pup (although he now looks all grown up, just a few months on).
@Benpointer The NHS is the Aldi of international health systems. It's cheap, good quality and has patches of excellence. But it delivers that by massively restricting choice and having none of the frills that more up market chains offer. The Tories are historically stuck between misrepresenting the NHS and not being bright enough to recast it. Which just leaves them occilating between administrating the Status Quo and occasionally starving it of funds. Thus they defacto buy into the post war settlement but never rightly get as much credit as they deserve for keeping it in place. As an external observer it seems like the worst of both possible worlds for them.
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
Ben - so sorry about your loss -- all our family adore animals especially dogs. We have loved and lost so many but it was always a priviledge to have had them integral to our family. We do not have a pet at home anymore but we do, my wife especially, interact with all dogs and my wife was in her element this morning as virtually the whole of Llandudno, with their dogs, took to the new lifeboat station to welcome our new shannon class lifeboat 'William F Yates'
Sounds like a great event and for such a good cause! Yes we have had four dogs now - always said 'never again' after each one died, but then we relent. We have another english pointer now - he's not Ben but he's a lovely dog nonetheless!
So not only have we got a cowering and pathetic waste of space "leading" the UK in the form of drippy Theresa we've now basically got a lame duck leading Germany as well.
Brilliant!
No.
Theresa May is a weak leader for requiring DUP support.
Angela Merkel is a strong leader for having to require the support of an assortment of political parties.
Well blowing her majority in June was bad enough but Theresa May's real problem is more the grovelling on her hands and knees to Juncker and co on Friday, not to mention squandering away unlimited amounts of UK tax payers money to keep locked in EU purgatory years and years and years...
Oh and the fact she hood-winked me into voting for her by saying Brexit means Brexit and all that cr*p and now she's doing an about turn.
I don't take kindly to being lied to... I want her gone!
But she has to steer the exit with care. A 2 year transition is very sensible and seems to have been accepted. Anyone else overseeing Brexit at present, especially Boris, would see it fail as there is not a Parliamentary majority for a hard Brexit
So not only have we got a cowering and pathetic waste of space "leading" the UK in the form of drippy Theresa we've now basically got a lame duck leading Germany as well.
Brilliant!
No.
Theresa May is a weak leader for requiring DUP support.
Angela Merkel is a strong leader for having to require the support of an assortment of political parties.
Well blowing her majority in June was bad enough but Theresa May's real problem is more the grovelling on her hands and knees to Juncker and co on Friday, not to mention squandering away unlimited amounts of UK tax payers money to keep locked in EU purgatory years and years and years...
Oh and the fact she hood-winked me into voting for her by saying Brexit means Brexit and all that cr*p and now she's doing an about turn.
I don't take kindly to being lied to... I want her gone!
But she has to steer the exit with care. A 2 year transition is very sensible and seems to have been accepted. Anyone else overseeing Brexit at present, especially Boris, would see it fail as there is not a Parliamentary majority for a hard Brexit
Wise words Big_G
Why so grumpy @GIN1138 ? You're still going to get your wish in the end (probably )
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
Ben - so sorry about your loss -- all our family adore animals especially dogs. We have loved and lost so many but it was always a priviledge to have had them integral to our family. We do not have a pet at home anymore but we do, my wife especially, interact with all dogs and my wife was in her element this morning as virtually the whole of Llandudno, with their dogs, took to the new lifeboat station to welcome our new shannon class lifeboat 'William F Yates'
My avatar is my latest pup (although he now looks all grown up, just a few months on).
He looks like a wired hair fox terrier we had in our family in the 1960's, bless him
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
Ben - so sorry about your loss -- all our family adore animals especially dogs. We have loved and lost so many but it was always a priviledge to have had them integral to our family. We do not have a pet at home anymore but we do, my wife especially, interact with all dogs and my wife was in her element this morning as virtually the whole of Llandudno, with their dogs, took to the new lifeboat station to welcome our new shannon class lifeboat 'William F Yates'
My avatar is my latest pup (although he now looks all grown up, just a few months on).
He looks like a wired hair fox terrier we had in our family in the 1960's, bless him
Yep. Great dog, but a typical terrier - lives life on his terms!
So not only have we got a cowering and pathetic waste of space "leading" the UK in the form of drippy Theresa we've now basically got a lame duck leading Germany as well.
Brilliant!
No.
Theresa May is a weak leader for requiring DUP support.
Angela Merkel is a strong leader for having to require the support of an assortment of political parties.
Well blowing her majority in June was bad enough but Theresa May's real problem is more the grovelling on her hands and knees to Juncker and co on Friday, not to mention squandering away unlimited amounts of UK tax payers money to keep locked in EU purgatory years and years and years...
Oh and the fact she hood-winked me into voting for her by saying Brexit means Brexit and all that cr*p and now she's doing an about turn.
I don't take kindly to being lied to... I want her gone!
Well Brexit still means Brexit. Just as cheese still means cheese. It was entirely vacuous. How can you claim you were lied to?
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
Ben - so sorry about your loss -- all our family adore animals especially dogs. We have loved and lost so many but it was always a priviledge to have had them integral to our family. We do not have a pet at home anymore but we do, my wife especially, interact with all dogs and my wife was in her element this morning as virtually the whole of Llandudno, with their dogs, took to the new lifeboat station to welcome our new shannon class lifeboat 'William F Yates'
Sounds like a great event and for such a good cause! Yes we have had four dogs now - always said 'never again' after each one died, but then we relent. We have another english pointer now - he's not Ben but he's a lovely dog nonetheless!
My Father always used to say ' The more you see of people, the more you like your dog'
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
Ben - so sorry about your loss -- all our family adore animals especially dogs. We have loved and lost so many but it was always a priviledge to have had them integral to our family. We do not have a pet at home anymore but we do, my wife especially, interact with all dogs and my wife was in her element this morning as virtually the whole of Llandudno, with their dogs, took to the new lifeboat station to welcome our new shannon class lifeboat 'William F Yates'
My avatar is my latest pup (although he now looks all grown up, just a few months on).
He looks like a wired hair fox terrier we had in our family in the 1960's, bless him
Yep. Great dog, but a typical terrier - lives life on his terms!
@Benpointer The NHS is the Aldi of international health systems. It's cheap, good quality and has patches of excellence. But it delivers that by massively restricting choice and having none of the frills that more up market chains offer. The Tories are historically stuck between misrepresenting the NHS and not being bright enough to recast it. Which just leaves them occilating between administrating the Status Quo and occasionally starving it of funds. Thus they defacto buy into the post war settlement but never rightly get as much credit as they deserve for keeping it in place. As an external observer it seems like the worst of both possible worlds for them.
Yes, not a bad analysis. We can't really afford the Waitrose NHS can we.
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
How does one upload a photo btw. Tried on the iPad, but no good.
Sorry, can't really remember how I did it - went into settings then it must have been pretty straightforward cos I managed it! I'm using a Macbook though - not sure if that's easier than on an iPad.
Suggest you ask again when TSE is around - he's always changing his avatar.
@Benpointer The NHS is the Aldi of international health systems. It's cheap, good quality and has patches of excellence. But it delivers that by massively restricting choice and having none of the frills that more up market chains offer. The Tories are historically stuck between misrepresenting the NHS and not being bright enough to recast it. Which just leaves them occilating between administrating the Status Quo and occasionally starving it of funds. Thus they defacto buy into the post war settlement but never rightly get as much credit as they deserve for keeping it in place. As an external observer it seems like the worst of both possible worlds for them.
Yes, not a bad analysis. We can't really afford the Waitrose NHS can we.
Why not? We're a low taxed country and can well afford to pay more for much better public services all round.
@Benpointer The NHS is the Aldi of international health systems. It's cheap, good quality and has patches of excellence. But it delivers that by massively restricting choice and having none of the frills that more up market chains offer. The Tories are historically stuck between misrepresenting the NHS and not being bright enough to recast it. Which just leaves them occilating between administrating the Status Quo and occasionally starving it of funds. Thus they defacto buy into the post war settlement but never rightly get as much credit as they deserve for keeping it in place. As an external observer it seems like the worst of both possible worlds for them.
Yes, not a bad analysis. We can't really afford the Waitrose NHS can we.
Why not? We're a low taxed country and can well afford to pay more for much better public services all round.
Fair point - and we're the 5th largest economy in the world (though much further down the list in terms of GDP per capita).
Voters are certainly not infallible (that's why we have a Tory govt lol) but I was just pointing out that Labour are more trusted than the Tories as far as the NHS is concerned. And the facts bear that out - all but one of the top 10 years for real increases in NHS spending have been under Labour:
Extrapolating from relatively or in some cases very sane previous Labour governments to a Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne hard-left Militant-Tendency-reborn government is brave. You do know the difference between Corbyn and Blair, I guess?
I'd be happy to see the Labour manifesto implemented. You may say that Corbyn would do something different and to some extent I guess that's probable (every government renegs on something). But I either decide on the basis of the manifestos or what? Listen to dear old Big_G chanting Venezuela? Or the Sun: “Don't chuck Britain in the Cor-bin”??
(PS, I appreciate the manifestos will be different next GE - I'll read them and decide then)
Not so much of the old Ben - if the next manifesto is less hard left without handing power to the unions, borrowing billions, and excessive taxing of British business labour would have a good chance but who knows these days.
Sorry Big_G, I was misled by that picture of the old geezer you use as your avatar
And that is one of my better photos !!!!
Haha, I wouldn't want to inflict a photo of me on you lot! Hence my old pal Ben, sadly no longer with us, stands in for me. And very cool I think he looks too!
How does one upload a photo btw. Tried on the iPad, but no good.
Sorry, can't really remember how I did it - went into settings then it must have been pretty straightforward cos I managed it! I'm using a Macbook though - not sure if that's easier than on an iPad.
Suggest you ask again when TSE is around - he's always changing his avatar.
@dixiedean click on your name in he thread. Then click on your profile photo. Then click on the" Change Photo " bit. You then just upload the photo you want from the device you are using.
@dixiedean click on your name in he thread. Then click on your profile photo. Then click on the" Change Photo " bit. You then just upload the photo you want from the device you are using.
Comments
Understatement of the day. Chapeau!
It's a good question re always real terms increases. A few thoughts (and I'm no expert of course):
Spending could indefinitely rise above inflation to the extent there is growth in the economy, so that might mean an average 2-3% real terms spend increase has been sustainable historically (not since 2010 sadly).
Maybe we just need to spend more of our national wealth share on health as the demographics age. Appreciate there will be a limit to that eventually, but what is more important than health?
We still have a very cheap health service in the country compared to most other developed countries - certainly much cheaper than the US!
It's facing huge challenges now and needs a new and adjusted settlement. But the idea the NHS s either expensive or bloated for what it does is absurd. If the Tories were serious they'd call the NHS " the world's cheapest Health insurance " recasting it as both a product and celebrating it's thrift.
But there is a reason they are called the " Stupid Party ". That they can be tarred with an anti NHS brush is much more to do with their rhetoric than their record in office.
Brilliant!
That's 2 more than UKIP managed to win in general elections.
Theresa May is a weak leader for requiring DUP support.
Angela Merkel is a strong leader for having to require the support of an assortment of political parties.
In the meantime, the SPD will spend 4 years shouting from the sidelines, and girding themselves for a run at a non-Merkel led 2021 election.
Or I could be wrong.
Oh and the fact she hood-winked me into voting for her by saying Brexit means Brexit and all that cr*p and now she's doing an about turn.
I don't take kindly to being lied to... I want her gone!
Why so grumpy @GIN1138 ? You're still going to get your wish in the end (probably
Suggest you ask again when TSE is around - he's always changing his avatar.
https://www.google.com/search?q=german+election+2017