A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
I'm impressed that you can tell the difference between a Labour Brexit and the government's version. No-one else can.
You cannot have been paying attention. Labour has a policy of unilaterally establishing the rights of settlement of EU citizens here, and I work with a good number of these who are decidedly unsettled at the moment. They also have a more positive approach to human rights and workers rights, as well as being prepared to negotiate productively over these issues and remain in the customs union.
These would be a significant step back from the mean spiritedness of the Tories, and their planned bonfire of consumer and environmental protections.
There would also be the schadenfreude of demonstrating to the kippers what "take back control" means.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
Yes, but I m not one of those people. We voted for it as a nation, and I have said from Day One that we must own the result as a nation. I have accepted it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. There are some (not you) who use the result to close down debate, or hand wave away legitimate questions of genuine interest. It is also done when you say Labour have a point on tuition fees or housing. "But they didn't win, so there." It is not an argument. And it is bloody annoying.
Do not let Sunil get to you.The official result Leave 51.89% Remain 48.11 %.Slightly better than his dodgy bar chart.
A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
I'm impressed that you can tell the difference between a Labour Brexit and the government's version. No-one else can.
You cannot have been paying attention. Labour has a policy of unilaterally establishing the rights of settlement of EU citizens here, and I work with a good number of these who are decidedly unsettled at the moment. They also have a more positive approach to human rights and workers rights, as well as being prepared to negotiate productively over these issues and remain in the customs union.
These would be a significant step back from the mean spiritedness of the Tories, and their planned bonfire of consumer and environmental protections.
There would also be the schadenfreude of demonstrating to the kippers what "take back control" means.
Ah yes, you are right. There is one minor difference, namely that Labour doesn't give a toss about whether UK citizens would get reciprocal rights. My mistake for forgetting that.
On the other points, Labour have shilly-shallied around, depending on who spoke last, but have never said we should aim to stay in the customs union.
A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
I'm impressed that you can tell the difference between a Labour Brexit and the government's version. No-one else can.
Labour brexit is perfect for those who dislike Tories....
Otherwise, doesn't it change depending on how many times Jezza has spoken on the telly box in a day?
Not really. It isn't real as Labour is not in power, so it has the luxury of being all things to all people. It can shapeshift to the prevailing wind.
I have all the time for people like Richard Navabi, SouthamObserver and even Alastair Meeks who accept the decision whilst still arguing it was wrong and will be to the detriment of the country. That is not what some true Remoaners are doing.
I am bemused by this construction. Unless you are claiming that some people are actually denying reality, everyone accepts the decision. It happened. It cannot unhappen.
.
Clearly that us not the case. Blair is a case in point. And there are plenty of others like him.
A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
I'm impressed that you can tell the difference between a Labour Brexit and the government's version. No-one else can.
You cannot have been paying attention. Labour has a policy of unilaterally establishing the rights of settlement of EU citizens here, and I work with a good number of these who are decidedly unsettled at the moment. They also have a more positive approach to human rights and workers rights, as well as being prepared to negotiate productively over these issues and remain in the customs union.
These would be a significant step back from the mean spiritedness of the Tories, and their planned bonfire of consumer and environmental protections.
There would also be the schadenfreude of demonstrating to the kippers what "take back control" means.
Ah yes, you are right. There is one minor difference, namely that Labour doesn't give a toss about whether UK citizens would get reciprocal rights. My mistake for forgetting that.
On the other points, Labour have shilly-shallied around, depending on who spoke last, but have never said we should aim to stay in the customs union.
They have proposed staying in the customs union for an indefinite transition, I agree not tenable, but more willing to do compromise than David Davis. Starmer or Davis? Its a no brained for me.
Brexit would still be bad, just not quite so bad as a Tory one, and there would be other non Brexit policies to enjoy too.
I have shifted my assets away from the UK, and disengaged from ties that will keep me here much longer. I will keep a place here so I can vote and collect my pension, at least until Fox Jr is sorted, after that I will be a carefree citizen of nowhere.
I have shifted my assets away from the UK, and disengaged from ties that will keep me here much longer. I will keep a place here so I can vote and collect my pension, at least until Fox Jr is sorted, after that I will be a carefree citizen of nowhere.
Very wise. You are well placed for the ultimate disaster of a chaotic Brexit followed by Jeremy Corbyn. I recommend everyone who is in a position to protect themselves against that risk, or at least to mitigate the potential damage to their families, to do so.
Just one tip, though: don't choose to skip off to anywhere Corbyn admires, such as Cuba or Venezuela.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
Yes, but I m not one of those people. We voted for it as a nation, and I have said from Day One that we must own the result as a nation. I have accepted it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. There are some (not you) who use the result to close down debate, or hand wave away legitimate questions of genuine interest. It is also done when you say Labour have a point on tuition fees or housing. "But they didn't win, so there." It is not an argument. And it is bloody annoying.
Do not let Sunil get to you.The official result Leave 51.89% Remain 48.11 %.Slightly better than his dodgy bar chart.
I have shifted my assets away from the UK, and disengaged from ties that will keep me here much longer. I will keep a place here so I can vote and collect my pension, at least until Fox Jr is sorted, after that I will be a carefree citizen of nowhere.
Very wise. You are well placed for the ultimate disaster of a chaotic Brexit followed by Jeremy Corbyn. I recommend everyone who is in a position to protect themselves against that risk, or at least to mitigate the potential damage to their families, to do so.
Just one tip, though: don't choose to skip off to anywhere Corbyn admires, such as Cuba or Venezuela.
I was planning more sub Saharan Africa as I do have mission connections there, as well as having nicer weather, but I still have valid permanent residence for Australia too, albeit with a need to get medical registration updated. The Gulf pays well, but not my cup of tea long term, possibly doable for a year or so to replenish funds. Of EU countries ROI seems the best bet, but it seems the Netherlands needs people of my speciality, so other possibilities.
I have shifted my assets away from the UK, and disengaged from ties that will keep me here much longer. I will keep a place here so I can vote and collect my pension, at least until Fox Jr is sorted, after that I will be a carefree citizen of nowhere.
Very wise. You are well placed for the ultimate disaster of a chaotic Brexit followed by Jeremy Corbyn. I recommend everyone who is in a position to protect themselves against that risk, or at least to mitigate the potential damage to their families, to do so.
Just one tip, though: don't choose to skip off to anywhere Corbyn admires, such as Cuba or Venezuela.
I was planning more sub Saharan Africa as I do have mission connections there, as well as having nicer weather, but I still have valid permanent residence for Australia too, albeit with a need to get medical registration updated. The Gulf pays well, but not my cup of tea long term, possibly doable for a year or so to replenish funds. Of EU countries ROI seems the best bet, but it seems the Netherlands needs people of my speciality, so other possibilities.
You despise a post referendum UK for no longer being the progressive utopia you thought it was yet are happy to work in one of the gulf states? What a warped moral compass.
I have all the time for people like Richard Navabi, SouthamObserver and even Alastair Meeks who accept the decision whilst still arguing it was wrong and will be to the detriment of the country. That is not what some true Remoaners are doing.
I am bemused by this construction. Unless you are claiming that some people are actually denying reality, everyone accepts the decision. It happened. It cannot unhappen.
.
Clearly that us not the case. Blair is a case in point. And there are plenty of others like him.
I hope that the explanation is that there was a misunderstanding, or a miscommunication, or a delay, or a breakdown in communications. I want to know Amber Rudd's version of events, and timings (perhaps the timings have been wrongly reported?).
But if the facts are as reported and as alleged, then Amber Rudd should resign immediately.
What a bizarre attitude. If Jeremy Corbyn becomes prime minister, it will not diminish my patriotism one jot. If anything, it will motivate me to resist our new Chavez-style regime to save the country from what it has voted for.
If you stop being a patriot because your team loses an election or referendum, I don't think you were a patriot in the first place.
Identity, and patriotism is an aspect of identity, is rooted in values and culture.
How do you feel when you find that what you believe is not shared by your countrymen (though Leicester did vote Remain)?
The values persist, but are now shown to be discordant with a majority, rather than a minority. Hence I feel less in common with my country, and less patriotic. How will that manifest? At the moment, I am not in a position to change either my own or the national situation.
A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
Otherwise, I may well take retirement as soon as I can, and leave for somewhere more congenial.
It should have come as no surprise that that the EU is unpopular with your countrymen.
What a bizarre attitude. If Jeremy Corbyn becomes prime minister, it will not diminish my patriotism one jot. If anything, it will motivate me to resist our new Chavez-style regime to save the country from what it has voted for.
If you stop being a patriot because your team loses an election or referendum, I don't think you were a patriot in the first place.
Identity, and patriotism is an aspect of identity, is rooted in values and culture.
How do you feel when you find that what you believe is not shared by your countrymen (though Leicester did vote Remain)?
The values persist, but are now shown to be discordant with a majority, rather than a minority. Hence I feel less in common with my country, and less patriotic. How will that manifest? At the moment, I am not in a position to change either my own or the national situation.
A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
Otherwise, I may well take retirement as soon as I can, and leave for somewhere more congenial.
It should have come as no surprise that that the EU is unpopular with your countrymen.
well it's a bit silly
as ever all those people who threaten to leave the country rarely do
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, which is why I expect young Britons to become more European in outlook over time, despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be accelerated by a felt grievance against the older generation that have excluded them from the mainstream of European life.
And you would have said similarly in 1975.
Yet the young Britons of 1975 swung massively towards Leave by 2016.
Are the young Britons of 2016 going to have the same increase in European outlook as the young Britons of 1975 ?
I rather doubt it - it was the young Britons of 1975 who had the big increase in European experiences whether that was taking European holidays or driving European cars or working for European companies. Butt despite all that their change was anti-EU.
What a bizarre attitude. If Jeremy Corbyn becomes prime minister, it will not diminish my patriotism one jot. If anything, it will motivate me to resist our new Chavez-style regime to save the country from what it has voted for.
If you stop being a patriot because your team loses an election or referendum, I don't think you were a patriot in the first place.
Identity, and patriotism is an aspect of identity, is rooted in values and culture.
How do you feel when you find that what you believe is not shared by your countrymen (though Leicester did vote Remain)?
The values persist, but are now shown to be discordant with a majority, rather than a minority. Hence I feel less in common with my country, and less patriotic. How will that manifest? At the moment, I am not in a position to change either my own or the national situation.
A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
Otherwise, I may well take retirement as soon as I can, and leave for somewhere more congenial.
It should have come as no surprise that that the EU is unpopular with your countrymen.
well it's a bit silly
as ever all those people who threaten to leave the country rarely do
How many times has Malkie threatened to leave nowadays? Lost count!
Comments
These would be a significant step back from the mean spiritedness of the Tories, and their planned bonfire of consumer and environmental protections.
There would also be the schadenfreude of demonstrating to the kippers what "take back control" means.
On the other points, Labour have shilly-shallied around, depending on who spoke last, but have never said we should aim to stay in the customs union.
Very much like Leave before the referendum.
Brexit would still be bad, just not quite so bad as a Tory one, and there would be other non Brexit policies to enjoy too.
I have shifted my assets away from the UK, and disengaged from ties that will keep me here much longer. I will keep a place here so I can vote and collect my pension, at least until Fox Jr is sorted, after that I will be a carefree citizen of nowhere.
Just one tip, though: don't choose to skip off to anywhere Corbyn admires, such as Cuba or Venezuela.
The problem really is quite simple. Well done Mr Peter Rawlings from Chalfont St Peter, Bucks, UK. You nailed it;
https://www.ft.com/content/b453154c-9d42-11e7-9a86-4d5a475ba4c5
https://twitter.com/LBC/status/910602464813973505
I hope that the explanation is that there was a misunderstanding, or a miscommunication, or a delay, or a breakdown in communications. I want to know Amber Rudd's version of events, and timings (perhaps the timings have been wrongly reported?).
But if the facts are as reported and as alleged, then Amber Rudd should resign immediately.
as ever all those people who threaten to leave the country rarely do
Yet the young Britons of 1975 swung massively towards Leave by 2016.
Are the young Britons of 2016 going to have the same increase in European outlook as the young Britons of 1975 ?
I rather doubt it - it was the young Britons of 1975 who had the big increase in European experiences whether that was taking European holidays or driving European cars or working for European companies. Butt despite all that their change was anti-EU.