A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
If we rejoin, we'd have to join the Euro, not to mention being forced to drive on the right and to speak French.
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
Whilst i agree with youre sentiment if not your expression i remain amazed at the number of people who want a "hard brexit" when you point out the potential implications they don't give a damn. They believe it can all be sorted out afterwards when the EU has learned its lesson. No consideration of no border deal, not concerned that key jobs will remain unfilled and no concern that our planes can't fly. Apparently in 20 yeats time it will all be worth it!
planes arent flying next week and were still in the EU
Can we assume that what ever agreement is come to over the Northern Ireland/Eire border will apply to the Gibraltar/Spain border? (Perhaps I should add, if not, why not?)
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
Whilst i agree with youre sentiment if not your expression i remain amazed at the number of people who want a "hard brexit" when you point out the potential implications they don't give a damn. They believe it can all be sorted out afterwards when the EU has learned its lesson. No consideration of no border deal, not concerned that key jobs will remain unfilled and no concern that our planes can't fly. Apparently in 20 yeats time it will all be worth it!
planes arent flying next week and were still in the EU
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
Whilst i agree with youre sentiment if not your expression i remain amazed at the number of people who want a "hard brexit" when you point out the potential implications they don't give a damn. They believe it can all be sorted out afterwards when the EU has learned its lesson. No consideration of no border deal, not concerned that key jobs will remain unfilled and no concern that our planes can't fly. Apparently in 20 yeats time it will all be worth it!
planes arent flying next week and were still in the EU
Only ryanair who screwed up their staff rotas
It's Ryanair leading the screaming about no flights post Brexit
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
If we rejoin, we'd have to join the Euro, not to mention being forced to drive on the right and to speak French.
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
Whilst i agree with youre sentiment if not your expression i remain amazed at the number of people who want a "hard brexit" when you point out the potential implications they don't give a damn. They believe it can all be sorted out afterwards when the EU has learned its lesson. No consideration of no border deal, not concerned that key jobs will remain unfilled and no concern that our planes can't fly. Apparently in 20 yeats time it will all be worth it!
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engage with Cameron. A lot of people have thought about this a long time and were just blatantly dismissed for years as we were salami sliced further and further without ever being asked our consent. I want a sensible Brexit, I'm prepared to do Norway for instance to stage things, be flexible with the money issue etc. But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU. Life is not just money and will there be anyone to serve me in Costa Coffee or wherever ( whilst totally accepting we will need immigration and probably quite a lot of it still - but under my democratic control as a British citizen).
I had a very civil discussion with Dubliner earlier about the English Civil war. I doubt Parliament in 1642 was concerned about decimal points over fifteen years on growth anymore than George Washington was over a century later. Some things are deeper.
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
Whilst i agree with youre sentiment if not your expression i remain amazed at the number of people who want a "hard brexit" when you point out the potential implications they don't give a damn. They believe it can all be sorted out afterwards when the EU has learned its lesson. No consideration of no border deal, not concerned that key jobs will remain unfilled and no concern that our planes can't fly. Apparently in 20 yeats time it will all be worth it!
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engage with Cameron. A lot of people have thought about this a long time and were just blatantly dismissed for years as we were salami sliced further and further without ever being asked our consent. I want a sensible Brexit, I'm prepared to do Norway for instance to stage things, be flexible with the money issue etc. But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU. Life is not just money and will there be anyone to serve me in Costa Coffee or wherever ( whilst totally accepting we will need immigration and probably quite a lot of it still - but under my democratic control as a British citizen).
I had a very civil discussion with Dubliner earlier about the English Civil war. I doubt Parliament in 1642 was concerned about decimal points over fifteen years on growth anymore than George Washington was over a century later. Some things are deeper.
I happen to agree with you on that one, nothing to see here.
At the risk of appearing insensitive to those suffering terribly in the Caribbean, it feels like we are in the lull before storm of news & speculation that will rage over the next two weeks with the party conferences and the Florence speech.
When is Vince's big speech - will he wear his hat!!
Saw the LibDem ppb, was it done by (or in homage to) the people who produce 2012 and W1A.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole thing is an abomination?
Usually put in that situation by the proceeding government, or would you have had them cut spending by £100bn in 2010?
The could have raised taxes on those of us who have seen our incomes grow significantly over the past 7 years... Or maybe not given so much away in corporation tax cuts.
"Look how the Cameron and May administrations have diminished the basic decencies of civilised government. Their perverse response to the great squeeze has been an £18bn cut in income tax, mainly for the better off, and a £9bn cut in corporation tax."
The top 10% of earners have indeed seen substantial tax increases since 2010.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
Whilst i agree with youre sentiment if not your expression i remain amazed at the number of people who want a "hard brexit" when you point out the potential implications they don't give a damn. They believe it can all be sorted out afterwards when the EU has learned its lesson. No consideration of no border deal, not concerned that key jobs will remain unfilled and no concern that our planes can't fly. Apparently in 20 yeats time it will all be worth it!
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engage with Cameron. A lot of people have thought about this a long time and were just blatantly dismissed for years as we were salami sliced further and further without ever being asked our consent. I want a sensible Brexit, I'm prepared to do Norway for instance to stage things, be flexible with the money issue etc. But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU. Life is not just money and will there be anyone to serve me in Costa Coffee or wherever ( whilst totally accepting we will need immigration and probably quite a lot of it still - but under my democratic control as a British citizen)
spot on
Well if you have any faith in a UK government geting it right well good luck to you. We are where we are because succesve governments dodged the difficult decisions. The current lot are as bad as it can get. In the end we get the governments we desrve
Asked whether the Government will manage to agree a deal with the EU before 30 March 2019, Mr Murphy said: "I don't think Brexit will happen. I don't think the Government has the votes."
Whoever this man is, what he says is utter nonsense. He's yet another fool who thinks that everything important happens in the Westminster bubble.
We are leaving the EU. Whether MPs like it or not doesn't change that. They might as well repeal the Indian Independence Act 1947.
It's not like Indian Independence. We can and will rejoin if we do leave.
Unlikely, I'd say. Once we leave, it becomes the status quo.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
Whilst i agree with youre sentiment if not your expression i remain amazed at the number of people who want a "hard brexit" when you point out the potential implications they don't give a damn. They believe it can all be sorted out afterwards when the EU has learned its lesson. No consideration of no border deal, not concerned that key jobs will remain unfilled and no concern that our planes can't fly. Apparently in 20 yeats time it will all be worth it!
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engatrol as a British citizen)
spot on
Well if you have any faith in a UK government geting it right well good luck to you. We are where we are because succesve governments dodged the difficult decisions. The current lot are as bad as it can get. In the end we get the governments we desrve
why should I have any faith in UK governments re Europe ?
they have duped themselves and the electorate consistently about what the project is about and screwed it up
it remains to be seen whether the recent two fingered salute to the UK political establishment brings about a reasonable change, but at least its a chance to avoid more of the same
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I happen to agree with you on that one, nothing to see here.
At the risk of appearing insensitive to those suffering terribly in the Caribbean, it feels like we are in the lull before storm of news & speculation that will rage over the next two weeks with the party conferences and the Florence speech.
When is Vince's big speech - will he wear his hat!!
Saw the LibDem ppb, was it done by (or in homage to) the people who produce 2012 and W1A.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
If we rejoin, we'd have to join the Euro, not to mention being forced to drive on the right and to speak French.
Asked whether the Government will manage to agree a deal with the EU before 30 March 2019, Mr Murphy said: "I don't think Brexit will happen. I don't think the Government has the votes."
Whoever this man is, what he says is utter nonsense. He's yet another fool who thinks that everything important happens in the Westminster bubble.
We are leaving the EU. Whether MPs like it or not doesn't change that. They might as well repeal the Indian Independence Act 1947.
It's not like Indian Independence. We can and will rejoin if we do leave.
Unlikely, I'd say. Once we leave, it becomes the status quo.
Yes. It's the power of the status quo that almost got REMAIN over the line. Once we are out I would expect that the new status quo will assert itself very strongly. Those who demand we immediately rejoin will come across as slightly mad.
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
people who were so clever they were otwitted by a bus
We were outwitted because we were too optimistic, we underestimated the number of thick uneducated whiny bitch ass plebs out there.
We should have told those lazy twats 'If someone who can't speak English beats you to a job, then look in the mirror, stop blaming immigrants and learn a vocation.'
We won't make that mistake in the rejoining referendum.
If we rejoin, we'd have to join the Euro, not to mention being forced to drive on the right and to speak French.
parler en français n'est pas un probleme
[Gallic shrug] Mais je ne comprends pas le français!
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engage with Cameron. A lot of people have thought about this a long time and were just blatantly dismissed for years as we were salami sliced further and further without ever being asked our consent. I want a sensible Brexit, I'm prepared to do Norway for instance to stage things, be flexible with the money issue etc. But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU. Life is not just money and will there be anyone to serve me in Costa Coffee or wherever ( whilst totally accepting we will need immigration and probably quite a lot of it still - but under my democratic control as a British citizen).
I had a very civil discussion with Dubliner earlier about the English Civil war. I doubt Parliament in 1642 was concerned about decimal points over fifteen years on growth anymore than George Washington was over a century later. Some things are deeper.
Why would we want to reincarnate a civil war? (Actually three civil wars in three countries). I just don't get it. The consensus afterwards was never to go through anything like that again.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
Indeed it is remarkable how quickly a functioning opposition developed within America. Instead it is fudge after fudge in Europe.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole thing is an abomination?
Actually I quite admire the German ( and Welsh!) electoral system of top up seats - it might've made us more responsive ironically to the growing disquiet, rather than Blair/Brown ploughing on with Lisbon with a 66 seat majority on 36% and a lead under 3%. I'd add we have much to learn from Germany on education especially technical education.
But there's no demos. How do we have electoral debate and cut thrust between through 25 languages? There's no media accordingly to shed light on power? No common law ( no pun intended!) In these circumstances the bureaucracy will prevail. The apparatchiks who work the back rooms like Juncker or Selmayr or Verhofstadt will come to the fore.How have we got ourselves into a position where a German civil servant,and two ex Low Countries' PM's are wielding real power over my life. I've never voted for them, I can't fire them, neither can my fellow countrymen. It sucks. At least I can participate in firing Jezza if the old so and so makes it into power.
Cooperation is great. We have much in common, but it's gone way too far in its present guise.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
Indeed it is remarkable how quickly a functioning opposition developed within America. Instead it is fudge after fudge in Europe.
the daft thing is, by suppressing opposition they're killing their legitimacy at the same time
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engage with Cameron. A lot of people have thought about this a long time and were just blatantly dismissed for years as we were salami sliced further and further without ever being asked our consent. I want a sensible Brexit, I'm prepared to do Norway for instance to stage things, be flexible with the money issue etc. But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU. Life is not just money and will there be anyone to serve me in Costa Coffee or wherever ( whilst totally accepting we will need immigration and probably quite a lot of it still - but under my democratic control as a British citizen).
I had a very civil discussion with Dubliner earlier about the English Civil war. I doubt Parliament in 1642 was concerned about decimal points over fifteen years on growth anymore than George Washington was over a century later. Some things are deeper.
Why would we want to reincarnate a civil war? (Actually three civil wars in three countries). I just don't get it. The consensus afterwards was never to go through anything like that again.
Since when was that the consensus?
That was the consensus after WWII. The consensus about the Civil War and the War of Independence etc was that freedom was worth fighting for.
We don't need to physically fight for ours but we do need to metaphorically.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engage with Cameron. A lot of people have thought about this a long time and were just blatantly dismissed for years as we were salami sliced further and further without ever being asked our consent. I want a sensible Brexit, I'm prepared to do Norway for instance to stage things, be flexible with the money issue etc. But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU. Life is not just money and will there be anyone to serve me in Costa Coffee or wherever ( whilst totally accepting we will need immigration and probably quite a lot of it still - but under my democratic control as a British citizen).
I had a very civil discussion with Dubliner earlier about the English Civil war. I doubt Parliament in 1642 was concerned about decimal points over fifteen years on growth anymore than George Washington was over a century later. Some things are deeper.
Why would we want to reincarnate a civil war? (Actually three civil wars in three countries). I just don't get it. The consensus afterwards was never to go through anything like that again.
I used it to illustrate. I am not cleaning my matchlock musket and sharpening my twelve foot pike in preparation.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engage with Cameron. A lot of people have thought about this a long time and were just blatantly dismissed for years as we were salami sliced further and further without ever being asked our consent. I want a sensible Brexit, I'm prepared to do Norway for instance to stage things, be flexible with the money issue etc. But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU. Life is not just money and will there be anyone to serve me in Costa Coffee or wherever ( whilst totally accepting we will need immigration and probably quite a lot of it still - but under my democratic control as a British citizen).
I had a very civil discussion with Dubliner earlier about the English Civil war. I doubt Parliament in 1642 was concerned about decimal points over fifteen years on growth anymore than George Washington was over a century later. Some things are deeper.
Why would we want to reincarnate a civil war? (Actually three civil wars in three countries). I just don't get it. The consensus afterwards was never to go through anything like that again.
I used it to illustrate. I am not cleaning my matchlock musket and sharpening my twelve foot pike in preparation.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
It'll be fine. We've got plenty of wild animals like muntjak deer, badgers, and squirrels, as well as millions of dogs and cats that can be eaten, if food deliveries from the Continent come to an end.
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engage with Cameron. A lot of people have thought about this a long time and were just blatantly dismissed for years as we were salami sliced further and further without ever being asked our consent. I want a sensible Brexit, I'm prepared to do Norway for instance to stage things, be flexible with the money issue etc. But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU. Life is not just money and will there be anyone to serve me in Costa Coffee or wherever ( whilst totally accepting we will need immigration and probably quite a lot of it still - but under my democratic control as a British citizen).
I had a very civil discussion with Dubliner earlier about the English Civil war. I doubt Parliament in 1642 was concerned about decimal points over fifteen years on growth anymore than George Washington was over a century later. Some things are deeper.
Why would we want to reincarnate a civil war? (Actually three civil wars in three countries). I just don't get it. The consensus afterwards was never to go through anything like that again.
I used it to illustrate. I am not cleaning my matchlock musket and sharpening my twelve foot pike in preparation.
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engage with Cameron. A lot of people have thought about this a long time and were just blatantly dismissed for years as we were salami sliced further and further without ever being asked our consent. I want a sensible Brexit, I'm prepared to do Norway for instance to stage things, be flexible with the money issue etc. But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU. Life is not just money and will there be anyone to serve me in Costa Coffee or wherever ( whilst totally accepting we will need immigration and probably quite a lot of it still - but under my democratic control as a British citizen).
I had a very civil discussion with Dubliner earlier about the English Civil war. I doubt Parliament in 1642 was concerned about decimal points over fifteen years on growth anymore than George Washington was over a century later. Some things are deeper.
Why would we want to reincarnate a civil war? (Actually three civil wars in three countries). I just don't get it. The consensus afterwards was never to go through anything like that again.
I used it to illustrate. I am not cleaning my matchlock musket and sharpening my twelve foot pike in preparation.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans. It's a combination of growing up with the Euro, free movement, low cost airlines and for the middle/upper-middle classes, the Anglicisation of most professions.
We can savour the fact that England has played her part in the creation of a European demos by giving it a common language and getting out of the way!
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
It'll be fine. We've got plenty of wild animals like muntjak deer, badgers, and squirrels, as well as millions of dogs and cats that can be eaten, if food deliveries from the Continent come to an end.
Well at least it an answe, we could always eat each other based on an algorithim which measure youre value
A Canadian perspective on Mrs May's trip to Canada and her attempt to drum up interest in a Brexit deal with TheRestOfTheWorld. Canada is happy to take the EU deal as a template and recast it to Canada's advantage because they know we're in a weak position. So we will have no deal or a worse deal with the EU and no deal or a worse deal with everyone else. Thus confirming what some of us knew all the long.
That assumes what the EU wants from a deal with Canada is the same as what the UK would want.
I doubt, for example, that the UK would be as concerned as much for the well-being of French farmers.
Undoubtedly we don't, but Canada might if doing so gives them access to the bigger market of the EU. The point is we might be flexible about getting less from the Canadians, but the Canadians don't have any incentive to offer us more. In fact we will certainly get less from any new deal than we have under CETA during the 18 months until we leave the EU. Some of the reasons are technical, but also because the Canadians will want to recast the deal to their advantage and will be able to do so.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans. It's a combination of growing up with the Euro, free movement, low cost airlines and for the middle/upper-middle classes, the Anglicisation of most professions.
We can savour the fact that England has played her part in the creation of a European demos by giving it a common language and getting out of the way!
An Iberian Union makes far more sense than your crazy EU contraption.
Would they still be in different time zones?
The Portuguese twice tried switching to CET but it proved massively unpopular with an increase in accidents and very adverse effects on childrens schooling. On both occasions they switched back.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
It'll be fine. We've got plenty of wild animals like muntjak deer, badgers, and squirrels, as well as millions of dogs and cats that can be eaten, if food deliveries from the Continent come to an end.
Well at least it an answe, we could always eat each other based on an algorithim which measure youre value
The Tories could resume their Swiftian feasting on babies ....
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It is wrong to turn democracy into an absolute, there are always rules and degrees. In our democracy we have FPTP and safe as well as marginal constituencies. Unelected lords are appointed to powerful positions. In the EU the countries act as constituencies, with transnational party groupings that we have voluntarily kept out of. The Commissioners and Ministers have a cabinet like power, separate from the legislature, but each chosen by a democratic government.
It is a democracy, but different to Westminster. In particular the rules are structured to build consensus across national boundaries and parties. This collaborative and compromising style can be rather lumbering, but the unity behind such decisions makes for a much more unified politic.
We have chosen to exile ourselves from this body, but when it comes to negotiation between our own binary and fractious parties and the consensual approach of the EU27 it does have implications. The EU27 will not be split because the whole structure is opposed to that.
In practice the unified yet inflexible approach will mean that our own whealer-dealer, fly by the seat of the pants will get nowhere. We have to choose between the EU27 deal and WTO hard Brexit. I see the WTO option is the only one a Tory party can go with. As transition only exists when a deal is agreed, there will be no transition, though there may be a period of non enforcement.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
It'll be fine. We've got plenty of wild animals like muntjak deer, badgers, and squirrels, as well as millions of dogs and cats that can be eaten, if food deliveries from the Continent come to an end.
Well at least it an answe, we could always eat each other based on an algorithim which measure youre value
The Tories could resume their Swiftian feasting on babies ....
Just as well then that the immigrants have so many
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
It'll be fine. We've got plenty of wild animals like muntjak deer, badgers, and squirrels, as well as millions of dogs and cats that can be eaten, if food deliveries from the Continent come to an end.
Well at least it an answe, we could always eat each other based on an algorithim which measure youre value
The Tories could resume their Swiftian feasting on babies ....
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It is wrong to turn democracy into an absolute, there are always rules and degrees. In our democracy we have FPTP and safe as well as marginal constituencies. Unelected lords are appointed to powerful positions. In the EU the countries act as constituencies, with transnational party groupings that we have voluntarily kept out of. The Commissioners and Ministers have a cabinet like power, separate from the legislature, but each chosen by a democratic government.
It is a democracy, but different to Westminster. In particular the rules are structured to build consensus across national boundaries and parties. This collaborative and compromising style can be rather lumbering, but the unity behind such decisions makes for a much more unified politic.
We have chosen to exile ourselves from this body, but when it comes to negotiation between our own binary and fractious parties and the consensual approach of the EU27 it does have implications. The EU27 will not be split because the whole structure is opposed to that.
In practice the unified yet inflexible approach will mean that our own whealer-dealer, fly by the seat of the pants will get nowhere. We have to choose between the EU27 deal and WTO hard Brexit. I see the WTO option is the only one a Tory party can go with. As transition only exists when a deal is agreed, there will be no transition, though there may be a period of non enforcement.
wheres the opposition, wheres the chance to change direction ?
there isnt one
I feel much happier living in a country where dissent is the norm than one where you bite your lip
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
It's certainly a poorly understood aspect of the EU, and not just in the UK. People don't like consensus. It's hard work and involves compromise. I would say the EU is vulnerable on that point, bit the alternatives are the superstate that no-one wants or abandoning any meaningful cooperation.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
It's certainly a poorly understood aspect of the EU, and not just in the UK. People don't like consensus. It's hard work and involves compromise. I would say the EU is vulnerable on that point, bit the alternatives are the superstate that no-one wants or abandoning any meaningful cooperation.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
It'll be fine. We've got plenty of wild animals like muntjak deer, badgers, and squirrels, as well as millions of dogs and cats that can be eaten, if food deliveries from the Continent come to an end.
Well at least it an answe, we could always eat each other based on an algorithim which measure youre value
The Tories could resume their Swiftian feasting on babies ....
Just as well then that the immigrants have so many
On a more serious note as i live in Spain i would not be able to buty my malt loaf because iceland would go bust, no problem. Theire would be no british beer or fags, no problem, i'm under 65 so no issues with health care. I might not be able to come back or have visitors but no problem. The impacts on this side are surmountable, i hope they are in the UK
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
It'll be fine. We've got plenty of wild animals like muntjak deer, badgers, and squirrels, as well as millions of dogs and cats that can be eaten, if food deliveries from the Continent come to an end.
Well at least it an answe, we could always eat each other based on an algorithim which measure youre value
The Tories could resume their Swiftian feasting on babies ....
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
I don't see how we solve the problems thrown up by the Brexit vote without leaving SM and CU, as well as enacting a FTA with the EU, eventually. I suspect in the meantime we'll have a status quo transition. I'd prefer, given that I have more allegiance to the taxpayers of this country than the bureaucrats of the EU, that it doesn't cost us the earth (either financially or politically) - but I'm not going to die in a ditch for the transition.
This is the hard Brexit that Remainers tried to scare people with. Until, like previous guaranteed winning strategies e.g. Obama, Gina Miller and James Chapman, it didn't. And instead people embraced the idea that freedom actually means freedom.
I mean, FFS, only a metropolitan elite out of touch with the majority of the population could imagine that terming something 'soft' but not actually fulfilling the vision of Vote Leave would automatically attract voters. Its Gene Hunt all over again.... (This sentence is only partly a joke).
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
It's certainly a poorly understood aspect of the EU, and not just in the UK. People don't like consensus. It's hard work and involves compromise. I would say the EU is vulnerable on that point, bit the alternatives are the superstate that no-one wants or abandoning any meaningful cooperation.
No that's the point. The superstate is what they want. Any compromise, or fudge, or fiddle is fine as long as it leads in that direction. Any step back is an affront, impossible, verboten. We are close to the event horizon of the Black Hole. I think we just fired the engines in time to still escape.
Well that ladies and gentlemen is absolutely typical of Amber Rudd. A lady with zero compassion, as evidenced by her wretched business career too when to put it politely, she mastered the art of destroying shareholder value. The thought of that woman ever becoming prime minister doesn't bear thinking about. That was the saddest moment of general election night for me, when many of us thought she'd lost her seat, only to find that she'd hung on by 300 odd votes.
Mr Ethical, the HSBC whistleblower Nicholas Wilson well and truly demolished her at the hustings in Hastings, when she was in cahoots with the debate chairman to shut him up when he was only stating the truth about how awful she truly is.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It is wrong to turn democracy into an absolute, there are always rules and degrees. In our democracy we have FPTP and safe as well as marginal constituencies. Unelected lords are appointed to powerful positions. In the EU the countries act as constituencies, with transnational party groupings that we have voluntarily kept out of. The Commissioners and Ministers have a cabinet like power, separate from the legislature, but each chosen by a democratic government.
It is a democracy, but different to Westminster. In particular the rules are structured to build consensus across national boundaries and parties. This collaborative and compromising style can be rather lumbering, but the unity behind such decisions makes for a much more unified politic.
We have chosen to exile ourselves from this body, but when it comes to negotiation between our own binary and fractious parties and the consensual approach of the EU27 it does have implications. The EU27 will not be split because the whole structure is opposed to that.
In practice the unified yet inflexible approach will mean that our own whealer-dealer, fly by the seat of the pants will get nowhere. We have to choose between the EU27 deal and WTO hard Brexit. I see the WTO option is the only one a Tory party can go with. As transition only exists when a deal is agreed, there will be no transition, though there may be a period of non enforcement.
What if you disagree? Juncker stated last week in his template he wanted to cut funds to parties that opposed the prevailing view - "extremists" I guess in his view? Wow.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
I don't see how we solve the problems thrown up by the Brexit vote without leaving SM and CU, as well as enacting a FTA with the EU, eventually. I suspect in the meantime we'll have a status quo transition. I'd prefer, given that I have more allegiance to the taxpayers of this country than the bureaucrats of the EU, that it doesn't cost us the earth (either financially or politically) - but I'm not going to die in a ditch for the transition.
This is the hard Brexit that Remainers tried to scare people with. Until, like Obama, Gina Miller and James Chapman, it didnt. And instead people embraced the idea that freedom actually means freedom.
I mean, FFS, only a metropolitan elite out of touch with the majority of the population could imagine that terming something 'soft' but not actually fulfilling the vision of Vote Leave would automatically attract voters. Its Gene Hunt all over again.... (This sentence is only partly a joke).
Well thank you for trying it makes a change for a non partisan serious question to get an answe.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It is wrong to turn democracy into an absolute, there are always rules and degrees. In our democracy we have FPTP and safe as well as marginal constituencies. Unelected lords are appointed to powerful positions. In the EU the countries act as constituencies, with transnational party groupings that we have voluntarily kept out of. The Commissioners and Ministers have a cabinet like power, separate from the legislature, but each chosen by a democratic government.
It is
wheres the opposition, wheres the chance to change direction ?
there isnt one
I feel much happier living in a country where dissent is the norm than one where you bite your lip
There is plenty of scope for opposition, provided you remain a member. This can be rather negative by means of the veto that applies over many areas, or more positive such as the breaking down of trade barriers by the Single Market act by persuading others of its merits.
In a consensual approach to politics everyone is listened to and has influence, but no one can force the pace. In many ways this is a more powerful influence for minorities than the tyranny of the majority that we see in our own system.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It is wrong to turn democracy into an absolute, there are always rules and degrees. In our democracy we have FPTP and safe as well as marginal constituencies. Unelected lords are appointed to powerful positions. In the EU the countries act as constituencies, with transnational party groupings that we have voluntarily kept out of. The Commissioners and Ministers have a cabinet like power, separate from the legislature, but each chosen by a democratic government.
It is
wheres the opposition, wheres the chance to change direction ?
there isnt one
I feel much happier living in a country where dissent is the norm than one where you bite your lip
There is plenty of scope for opposition, provided you remain a member. This can be rather negative by means of the veto that applies over many areas, or more positive such as the breaking down of trade barriers by the Single Market act by persuading others of its merits.
In a consensual approach to politics everyone is listened to and has influence, but no one can force the pace. In many ways this is a more powerful influence for minorities than the tyranny of the majority that we see in our own system.
You've clearly not heard of QMV. And the fact that Eurozone generally vote as a bloc.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It is wrong to turn democracy into an abbut each chosen by a democratic government.
It is
wheres the opposition, wheres the chance to change direction ?
there isnt one
I feel much happier living in a country where dissent is the norm than one where you bite your lip
There is plenty of scope for opposition, provided you remain a member. This can be rather negative by means of the veto that applies over many areas, or more positive such as the breaking down of trade barriers by the Single Market act by persuading others of its merits.
In a consensual approach to politics everyone is listened to and has influence, but no one can force the pace. In many ways this is a more powerful influence for minorities than the tyranny of the majority that we see in our own system.
you cant oppose, you are going in only one direction, all you can do is slow the pace
which problem do they face where the answer isnt more Europe ?
Juncker was at it once again this week.
there is no fundamental questioning or rethinking of the project only conformity and falling in to line
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
I don't see how we solve the problems thrown up by the Brexit vote without leaving SM and CU, as well as enacting a FTA with the EU, eventually. I suspect in the meantime we'll have a status quo transition. I'd prefer, given that I have more allegiance to the taxpayers of this country than the bureaucrats of the EU, that it doesn't cost us the earth (either financially or politically) - but I'm not going to die in a ditch for the transition.
This is the hard Brexit that Remainers tried to scare people with. Until, like previous guaranteed winning strategies e.g. Obama, Gina Miller and James Chapman, it didn't. And instead people embraced the idea that freedom actually means freedom.
I mean, FFS, only a metropolitan elite out of touch with the majority of the population could imagine that terming something 'soft' but not actually fulfilling the vision of Vote Leave would automatically attract voters. Its Gene Hunt all over again.... (This sentence is only partly a joke).
Nobody needs to want "no deal", that is the default and the clock is ticking.
All that is needed to make it happen is for no other deal to be agreed.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It is wrong to turn democracy into an absolute, there are always rules and degrees. In our democracy we have FPTP and safe as well as marginal constituencies. Unelected lords are appointed to powerful positions. In the EU the countries act as constituencies, with transnational party groupings that we have voluntarily kept out of. The Commissioners and Ministers have a cabinet like power, separate from the legislature, but each chosen by a democratic government.
It is
wheres the opposition, wheres the chance to change direction ?
there isnt one
I feel much happier living in a country where dissent is the norm than one where you bite your lip
There is plenty of scope for opposition, provided you remain a member. This can be rather negative by means of the veto that applies over many areas, or more positive such as the breaking down of trade barriers by the Single Market act by persuading others of its merits.
In a consensual approach to politics everyone is listened to and has influence, but no one can force the pace. In many ways this is a more powerful influence for minorities than the tyranny of the majority that we see in our own system.
You've clearly not heard of QMV. And the fact that Eurozone generally vote as a bloc.
National vetos still exist in many areas. Trade agreements being perhaps the most pertinent perhaps, but also for accession.
QMV was pushed through by Maggie as part of her Single Market reforms. It is of our making.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
...? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It is wrong to turn democracy into an absolute, there are always rules and degrees. In our democracy we have FPTP and safe as well as marginal constituencies. Unelected lords are appointed to powerful positions. In the EU the countries act as constituencies, with transnational party groupings that we have voluntarily kept out of. The Commissioners and Ministers have a cabinet like power, separate from the legislature, but each chosen by a democratic government.
It is
wheres the opposition, wheres the chance to change direction ?
there isnt one
I feel much happier living in a country where dissent is the norm than one where you bite your lip
There is plenty of scope for opposition, provided you remain a member. This can be rather negative by means of the veto that applies over many areas, or more positive such as the breaking down of trade barriers by the Single Market act by persuading others of its merits.
In a consensual approach to politics everyone is listened to and has influence, but no one can force the pace. In many ways this is a more powerful influence for minorities than the tyranny of the majority that we see in our own system.
You've clearly not heard of QMV. And the fact that Eurozone generally vote as a bloc.
National vetos still exist in many areas. Trade agreements being perhaps the most pertinent perhaps, but also for accession.
QMV was pushed through by Maggie as part of her Single Market reforms. It is of our making.
Do you honestly think a form of politics without an opposition is sensible? How do you see the EU allowing for error correction and course changing?
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
I don't want WTO as I hope is clear,but if it's a 100% binary choice forced on me of all in or all out, then yes so be it. I'm not selling my soul or bending the knee to Juncker et al. Let's all hope we are not heading there though.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
I just got back from Switzerland, a country I knew well but haven't been to much recently. I mention this because their system doesn't involve functioning oppositions, yet the country is typically held up as the most democratic of all.
Switzerland might seem the epitome of strong and stable where nothing much changes from one decade to the next. But there is a lot of tension bubbling away below the surface. There are religious, linguistic, historical and cultural differences, often at the commune level. There's little national demos, to use a term that gets bandied around on PB. It consists of a national flag that people are happy to put up next to those of their commune and canton, Migros supermarkets, a kind of vegan spice powder that they sprinkle their food with and a willingness to claim Roger Federer as their own, and that's about it for the collective national enterprise. In another context Switzerland could be a Yugoslavia. But it obviously isn't. The reason it isn't is because of an intense and continuing effort to compromise. The federal government exists essentially to resolve those tensions with regular constitutional tinkering and judicious allocation of federal moneys.
The point is we've been taken on a 25 year journey since Maastricht a lot of people never wanted to go on, and increasing numbers agreed as time went on. I myself started thinking "hmm" when we were fiddled out of a referendum on Lisbon and was pushed completely over the edge by the EU's refusal to meaningfully engage with Cameron. A lot of people have thought about this a long time and were just blatantly dismissed for years as we were salami sliced further and further without ever being asked our consent. I want a sensible Brexit, I'm prepared to do Norway for instance to stage things, be flexible with the money issue etc. But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU. Life is not just money and will there be anyone to serve me in Costa Coffee or wherever ( whilst totally accepting we will need immigration and probably quite a lot of it still - but under my democratic control as a British citizen).
I had a very civil discussion with Dubliner earlier about the English Civil war. I doubt Parliament in 1642 was concerned about decimal points over fifteen years on growth anymore than George Washington was over a century later. Some things are deeper.
Why would we want to reincarnate a civil war? (Actually three civil wars in three countries). I just don't get it. The consensus afterwards was never to go through anything like that again.
I used it to illustrate. I am not cleaning my matchlock musket and sharpening my twelve foot pike in preparation.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
I just got back from Switzerland, a country I knew well but haven't been to much recently. I mention this because their system doesn't involve functioning oppositions, yet the country is typically held up as the most democratic of all.
Switzerland might seem the epitome of strong and stable where nothing much changes from one decade to the next. But there is a lot of tension bubbling away below the surface. There are religious, linguistic, historical and cultural differences, often at the commune level. There's little national demos, to use a term that gets bandied around on PB. It consists of a national flag that people are happy to put up next to those of their commune and canton, Migros supermarkets, a kind of vegan spice powder that they sprinkle their food with and a willingness to claim Roger Federer as their own, and that's about it for the collective national enterprise. In another context Switzerland could be a Yugoslavia. But it obviously isn't. The reason it isn't is because of an intense and continuing effort to compromise. The federal government exists essentially to resolve those tensions with regular constitutional tinkering and judicious allocation of federal moneys.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
It's certainly a poorly understood aspect of the EU, and not just in the UK. People don't like consensus. It's hard work and involves compromise. I would say the EU is vulnerable on that point, bit the alternatives are the superstate that no-one wants or abandoning any meaningful cooperation.
the superstate is the end result
it;s not an alternative it;s the destination
It might be, because that's how the contradictions resolve themselves.The USA became a clear superstate after the civil war, a hundred years after its founding. Nevertheless none of the EU countries including Germany and France want a superstate. The members are still collectively in charge. There's no reason to disbelieve them, nor is it actually happening.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
It's certainly a poorly understood aspect of the EU, and not just in the UK. People don't like consensus. It's hard work and involves compromise. I would say the EU is vulnerable on that point, bit the alternatives are the superstate that no-one wants or abandoning any meaningful cooperation.
the superstate is the end result
it;s not an alternative it;s the destination
It might be, because that's how the contains resolve themselves.The USA became a clear superstate after the civil war, a hundred years after its founding. Nevertheless none of the EU countries including Germany and France want a superstate. The members are still collectively in charge. There's no reason to disbelieve them, nor is it actually happening.
we have a flag, a president, ambassadors, an army in the making, a common currency, a parliament an anthem
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, so their European identities will not be curtailed.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
It's certainly a poorly understood aspect of the EU, and not just in the UK. People don't like consensus. It's hard work and involves compromise. I would say the EU is vulnerable on that point, bit the alternatives are the superstate that no-one wants or abandoning any meaningful cooperation.
the superstate is the end result
it;s not an alternative it;s the destination
It might be, because that's how the contains resolve themselves.The USA became a clear superstate after the civil war, a hundred years after its founding. Nevertheless none of the EU countries including Germany and France want a superstate. The members are still collectively in charge. There's no reason to disbelieve them, nor is it actually happening.
we have a flag, a president, ambassadors, an army in the making, a common currency, a parliament an anthem
which bit isnt the formation of a superstate ?
We had an opt out from several key components of that, and a specific opt out from "Ever closer Union".
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
I just got back from Switzerland, a country I knew well but haven't been to much recently. I mention this because their system doesn't involve functioning oppositions, yet the country is typically held up as the most democratic of all.
Switzerland might seem the epitome of strong and stable where nothing much changes from one decade to the next. But there is a lot of tension bubbling away below the surface. There are religious, linguistic, historical and cultural differences, often at the commune level. There's little national demos, to use a term that gets bandied around on PB. It consists of a national flag that people are happy to put up next to those of their commune and canton, Migros supermarkets, a kind of vegan spice powder that they sprinkle their food with and a willingness to claim Roger Federer as their own, and that's about it for the collective national enterprise. In another context Switzerland could be a Yugoslavia. But it obviously isn't. The reason it isn't is because of an intense and continuing effort to compromise. The federal government exists essentially to resolve those tensions with regular constitutional tinkering and judicious allocation of federal moneys.
and all those referendums
are you sure you want an encore ?
I don't want an encore, nor, to be clear, to go back on a democratic decision. Democracy allows us to do stupid things and, believe me, it is stupid to leave the EU without considering the alternatives or having a viable plan or even direction in place.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, so their European identities will not be curtailed.
these days theyre as likely to travel to Vietnam or India does that give them an Asian identity
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, so their European identities will not be curtailed.
these days theyre as likely to travel to Vietnam or India does that give them an Asian identity
Worse. It might make them feel like 'citizens of the world'.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, which is why I expect young Britons to become more European in outlook over time, despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be accelerated by a felt grievance against the older generation that have excluded them from the mainstream of European life.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
Youth turnout was pathetic in the referendum. You imagine that the young working classes who couldn't even be bothered to vote in the referendum have an EU identity? Laughable.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
It's certainly a poorly understood aspect of the EU, and not just in the UK. People don't like consensus. It's hard work and involves compromise. I would say the EU is vulnerable on that point, bit the alternatives are the superstate that no-one wants or abandoning any meaningful cooperation.
the superstate is the end result
it;s not an alternative it;s the destination
It might be, because that's how the contains resolally happening.
we have a flag, a president, ambassadors, an army in the making, a common currency, a parliament an anthem
which bit isnt the formation of a superstate ?
We had an opt out from several key components of that, and a specific opt out from "Ever closer Union".
which successive british governments have had to regularly defend and bit by bit see pieces chipped away
as ever its the british politicos being dishonest with the electorate = or who knows even themselves- about what the project is about. I can respect European politicians since theyre totally upfront about what it means
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, so their European identities will not be curtailed.
these days theyre as likely to travel to Vietnam or India does that give them an Asian identity
In the last decade I've travelled to the Dominican Republic, Turkey, Egypt, Canada, Iceland and Mexico.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
I just got back from Switzerland, a country I knew well but haven't been to much recently. I mention this because their system doesn't involve functioning oppositions, yet the country is typically held up as the most democratic of all.
Switzerland might seem the epitome of strong and stable where nothing much changes from one decade to the next. But there is a lot of tension bubbling away below the surface. There are religious, linguistic, historical and cultural differences, often at the commune level. There's little national demos, to use a term that gets bandied around on PB. It consists of a national flag that people are happy to put up next to those of their commune and canton, Migros supermarkets, a kind of vegan spice powder that they sprinkle their food with and a willingness to claim Roger Federer as their own, and that's about it for the collective national enterprise. In another context Switzerland could be a Yugoslavia. But it obviously isn't. The reason it isn't is because of an intense and continuing effort to compromise. The federal government exists essentially to resolve those tensions with regular constitutional tinkering and judicious allocation of federal moneys.
and all those referendums
are you sure you want an encore ?
I don't want an encore, nor, to be clear, to go back on a democratic decision. Democracy allows us to do stupid things and, believe me, it is stupid to leave the EU without considering the alternatives or having a viable plan or even direction in place.
possibly, but then it was an idiot conservative goverment which called a slam dunk referendum and made no plans as it assumed it had already won
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
They will be the same 75% of youngsters who are angry about housing supply and costs for young people whilst simultaneously being happy to create further pressure on housing by supporting unlimited FOM from the EU. The link seems to escape them.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
Can I have a source for the 75% of youngsters voted Remain please?
As far as I knew nowhere near 75% of youngsters voted in the first let alone voted Remain.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, so their European identities will not be curtailed.
these days theyre as likely to travel to Vietnam or India does that give them an Asian identity
In the last decade I've travelled to the Dominican Republic, Turkey, Egypt, Canada, Iceland and Mexico.
What identity does that give me william?
dunno. I just spend my days in my KKK garb driving a bus around
Comments
(Perhaps I should add, if not, why not?)
I had a very civil discussion with Dubliner earlier about the English Civil war. I doubt Parliament in 1642 was concerned about decimal points over fifteen years on growth anymore than George Washington was over a century later. Some things are deeper.
SLab are no fun.
https://twitter.com/RossMcCaff/status/910577027576729601
the EU parlt doesnt have one
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
But there's no demos. How do we have electoral debate and cut thrust between through 25 languages? There's no media accordingly to shed light on power? No common law ( no pun intended!) In these circumstances the bureaucracy will prevail. The apparatchiks who work the back rooms like Juncker or Selmayr or Verhofstadt will come to the fore.How have we got ourselves into a position where a German civil servant,and two ex Low Countries' PM's are wielding real power over my life. I've never voted for them, I can't fire them, neither can my fellow countrymen. It sucks. At least I can participate in firing Jezza if the old so and so makes it into power.
Cooperation is great. We have much in common, but it's gone way too far in its present guise.
i
That was the consensus after WWII. The consensus about the Civil War and the War of Independence etc was that freedom was worth fighting for.
We don't need to physically fight for ours but we do need to metaphorically.
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
We can savour the fact that England has played her part in the creation of a European demos by giving it a common language and getting out of the way!
It is a democracy, but different to Westminster. In particular the rules are structured to build consensus across national boundaries and parties. This collaborative and compromising style can be rather lumbering, but the unity behind such decisions makes for a much more unified politic.
We have chosen to exile ourselves from this body, but when it comes to negotiation between our own binary and fractious parties and the consensual approach of the EU27 it does have implications. The EU27 will not be split because the whole structure is opposed to that.
In practice the unified yet inflexible approach will mean that our own whealer-dealer, fly by the seat of the pants will get nowhere. We have to choose between the EU27 deal and WTO hard Brexit. I see the WTO option is the only one a Tory party can go with. As transition only exists when a deal is agreed, there will be no transition, though there may be a period of non enforcement.
there isnt one
I feel much happier living in a country where dissent is the norm than one where you bite your lip
it;s not an alternative it;s the destination
I don't see how we solve the problems thrown up by the Brexit vote without leaving SM and CU, as well as enacting a FTA with the EU, eventually. I suspect in the meantime we'll have a status quo transition. I'd prefer, given that I have more allegiance to the taxpayers of this country than the bureaucrats of the EU, that it doesn't cost us the earth (either financially or politically) - but I'm not going to die in a ditch for the transition.
This is the hard Brexit that Remainers tried to scare people with. Until, like previous guaranteed winning strategies e.g. Obama, Gina Miller and James Chapman, it didn't. And instead people embraced the idea that freedom actually means freedom.
I mean, FFS, only a metropolitan elite out of touch with the majority of the population could imagine that terming something 'soft' but not actually fulfilling the vision of Vote Leave would automatically attract voters. Its Gene Hunt all over again.... (This sentence is only partly a joke).
Mr Ethical, the HSBC whistleblower Nicholas Wilson well and truly demolished her at the hustings in Hastings, when she was in cahoots with the debate chairman to shut him up when he was only stating the truth about how awful she truly is.
We need to break away from this odd idea of 'rights'.
In a consensual approach to politics everyone is listened to and has influence, but no one can force the pace. In many ways this is a more powerful influence for minorities than the tyranny of the majority that we see in our own system.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
which problem do they face where the answer isnt more Europe ?
Juncker was at it once again this week.
there is no fundamental questioning or rethinking of the project only conformity and falling in to line
All that is needed to make it happen is for no other deal to be agreed.
Remain 48%
Yes 45%
QMV was pushed through by Maggie as part of her Single Market reforms. It is of our making.
Switzerland might seem the epitome of strong and stable where nothing much changes from one decade to the next. But there is a lot of tension bubbling away below the surface. There are religious, linguistic, historical and cultural differences, often at the commune level. There's little national demos, to use a term that gets bandied around on PB. It consists of a national flag that people are happy to put up next to those of their commune and canton, Migros supermarkets, a kind of vegan spice powder that they sprinkle their food with and a willingness to claim Roger Federer as their own, and that's about it for the collective national enterprise. In another context Switzerland could be a Yugoslavia. But it obviously isn't. The reason it isn't is because of an intense and continuing effort to compromise. The federal government exists essentially to resolve those tensions with regular constitutional tinkering and judicious allocation of federal moneys.
Good evening, everyone.
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-telegraph-article-350m-nhs-floundering-leadership-not-going-to-happen-a7950546.html?amp
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
are you sure you want an encore ?
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
which bit isnt the formation of a superstate ?
REMAIN 48%
as ever its the british politicos being dishonest with the electorate = or who knows even themselves- about what the project is about. I can respect European politicians since theyre totally upfront about what it means
What identity does that give me william?
As far as I knew nowhere near 75% of youngsters voted in the first let alone voted Remain.