I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
Can I have a source for the 75% of youngsters voted Remain please?
As far as I knew nowhere near 75% of youngsters voted in the first let alone voted Remain.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
es us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
It's certainly a poorly understood aspect of the EU, and not just in the UK. People don't like consensus. It's hard work and involves compromise. I would say the EU is vulnerable on that point, bit the alternatives are the superstate that no-one wants or abandoning any meaningful cooperation.
the superstate is the end result
it;s not an alternative it;s the destination
It might be, because that's how the contains resolve themselves.The USA became a clear superstate after the civil war, a hundred years after its founding. Nevertheless none of the EU countries including Germany and France want a superstate. The members are still collectively in charge. There's no reason to disbelieve them, nor is it actually happening.
we have a flag, a president, ambassadors, an army in the making, a common currency, a parliament an anthem
which bit isnt the formation of a superstate ?
The EU is arguably a confederation, but it isn't like any real country. It's partly perception and terminology - what you understand by superstate . The member states are clear that they, and not the EU, ARE the states and the EU serves them and not the other way round.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
I just got back from Switzerland, a country I knew well but haven't been to much recently. I mention this because their system doesn't involve functioning oppositions, yet the country is typically held up as the most democratic of all.
Switzerland might seem the epitome of strong and stable where nothing much changes from one decade to the next. But there is a lot of tension bubbling away below the surface. There are religious, linguistic, historical and cultural differences, often at the commune level. There's little national demos, to use a term that gets bandied around on PB. It consists of a national flag that people are happy to put up next to those of their commune and canton, Migros supermarkets, a kind of vegan spice powder that they sprinkle their food with and a willingness to claim Roger Federer as their own, and that's about it for the collective national enterprise. In another context Switzerland could be a Yugoslavia. But it obviously isn't. The reason it isn't is because of an intense and continuing effort to compromise. The federal government exists essentially to resolve those tensions with regular constitutional tinkering and judicious allocation of federal moneys.
and all those referendums
are you sure you want an encore ?
I don't want an encore, nor, to be clear, to go back on a democratic decision. Democracy allows us to do stupid things and, believe me, it is stupid to leave the EU without considering the alternatives or having a viable plan or even direction in place.
possibly, but then it was an idiot conservative goverment which called a slam dunk referendum and made no plans as it assumed it had already won
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, which is why I expect young Britons to become more European in outlook over time, despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be accelerated by a felt grievance against the older generation that have excluded them from the mainstream of European life.
Well lets look at it from the other end
do their parents travel any less ? Do they have holidays and go to stag dos ? Do they have houses and flats in european countries ?
And yet they feel no more threatened by Europe than their kids, it's just with more experience they have drawn different conclusions.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
Can I have a source for the 75% of youngsters voted Remain please?
As far as I knew nowhere near 75% of youngsters voted in the first let alone voted Remain.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
They will be the same 75% of youngsters who are angry about housing supply and costs for young people whilst simultaneously being happy to create further pressure on housing by supporting unlimited FOM from the EU. The link seems to escape them.
Perhaps they see the benefits too. After all there was an inverse relationship between inward migration and and voting leave, indeed many of the strongest Leave areas have declining population.
There was also an inverse geographic relationship between house prices and voting leave.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
es us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
It's certainly a poorly understood aspect of the EU, and not just in the UK. People don't like consensus. It's hard work and involves compromise. I would say the EU is vulnerable on that point, bit the alternatives are the superstate that no-one wants or abandoning any meaningful cooperation.
the superstate is the end result
it;s not an alternative it;s the destination
It might be, because that's how the contains resolve themselves.The USA became a clear superstate after the civil war, a hundred years after its founding. Nevertheless none of the EU countries including Germany and France want a superstate. The members are still collectively in charge. There's no reason to disbelieve them, nor is it actually happening.
we have a flag, a president, ambassadors, an army in the making, a common currency, a parliament an anthem
which bit isnt the formation of a superstate ?
The EU is arguably a confederation, but it isn't like any real country. It's partly perception and terminology - what you understand by superstate . The member states are clear that they, and not the EU, ARE the states and the EU serves them and not the other way round.
If the EU was a clear confederation I could happily have voted to stay, but I dont agree with your analysis
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
Can I have a source for the 75% of youngsters voted Remain please?
As far as I knew nowhere near 75% of youngsters voted in the first let alone voted Remain.
Regretably that just repeats the claim it doesn't actually have any polling or link to the polling. The polling evidence I've seen in the past said that that while overall turnout for the UK was 73%, only 36% of 18-24 year olds voted, 64% of them could not be arsed to vote. That leaves the breakdown:
Remain: 26% Leave: 10% Can't be arsed: 64%
So 74% of young people either wanted to Leave or can't be arsed to vote. Can't really blame the elderly for the decision then.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
es us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
Introducing a Shadow European Commission would be a bold reform proposal.
but no one is proposing it
the key positions are chosen by a political fix, the parliament doesnt want dissent and the rules obstruct criticism
it's Austria Hungary 1900 rather than USA 1776
It's a valid criticism but that's because the EU isn't a superstate. It does and it has to work by consensus of the 27 or 28 countries.
except it doesnt
maybe it's closer to Imperial Germany lots of small supposedly independent states dominated by a big beast Prussia then Germany today.
The bigger ones were thrown prestige scraps to save face - Bavaria then France today - but ultimatlely all did what they were told.
It's certainly a poorly understood aspect of the EU, and not just in the UK. People don't like consensus. It's hard work and involves compromise. I would say the EU is vulnerable on that point, bit the alternatives are the superstate that no-one wants or abandoning any meaningful cooperation.
the superstate is the end result
it;s not an alternative it;s the destination
It might be, because that's how the contains resolve themselves.The USA became a clear superstate after the civil war, a hundred years after its founding. Nevertheless none of the EU countries including Germany and France want a superstate. The members are still collectively in charge. There's no reason to disbelieve them, nor is it actually happening.
we have a flag, a president, ambassadors, an army in the making, a common currency, a parliament an anthem
which bit isnt the formation of a superstate ?
The EU is arguably a confederation, but it isn't like any real country. It's partly perception and terminology - what you understand by superstate . The member states are clear that they, and not the EU, ARE the states and the EU serves them and not the other way round.
Like the US States and the Tenth Amendment they put into the Constitution?
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, which is why I expect young Britons to become more European in outlook over time, despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be accelerated by a felt grievance against the older generation that have excluded them from the mainstream of European life.
Well lets look at it from the other end
do their parents travel any less ? Do they have holidays and go to stag dos ? Do they have houses and flats in european countries ?
And yet they feel no more threatened by Europe than their kids, it's just with more experience they have drawn different conclusions.
Clearly there was a major generational split over Brexit, and one with no sign of shifting.
Do you really expect them to transform into Faragists? Or (as I expect) for them to become increasingly resentful of what has been inflicted on them?
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
Can I have a source for the 75% of youngsters voted Remain please?
As far as I knew nowhere near 75% of youngsters voted in the first let alone voted Remain.
Regretably that just repeats the claim it doesn't actually have any polling or link to the polling. The polling evidence I've seen in the past said that that while overall turnout for the UK was 73%, only 36% of 18-24 year olds voted, 64% of them could not be arsed to vote. That leaves the breakdown:
Remain: 26% Leave: 10% Can't be arsed: 64%
So 74% of young people either wanted to Leave or can't be arsed to vote. Can't really blame the elderly for the decision then.
They did on June 8th, and will again. Give people enough to be angry about and they will again, surely that is one of the lessons of Brexit.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, which is why I expect young Britons to become more European in outlook over time, despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be accelerated by a felt grievance against the older generation that have excluded them from the mainstream of European life.
Well lets look at it from the other end
do their parents travel any less ? Do they have holidays and go to stag dos ? Do they have houses and flats in european countries ?
And yet they feel no more threatened by Europe than their kids, it's just with more experience they have drawn different conclusions.
Clearly there was a major generational split over Brexit, and one with no sign of shifting.
Do you really expect them to transform into Faragists? Or (as I expect) for them to become increasingly resentful of what has been inflicted on them?
No idea
I simply look at how people change their views as they get older and wiser
when I was 18, I was very pro european, as time went on I picked up 5 or 6 european languages and have lived in France and Germany for the best part of 8 years. I voted Leave as my views on what Europe means for us changed with experience.
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, which is why I expect young Britons to become more European in outlook over time, despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be accelerated by a felt grievance against the older generation that have excluded them from the mainstream of European life.
Well lets look at it from the other end
do their parents travel any less ? Do they have holidays and go to stag dos ? Do they have houses and flats in european countries ?
And yet they feel no more threatened by Europe than their kids, it's just with more experience they have drawn different conclusions.
Clearly there was a major generational split over Brexit, and one with no sign of shifting.
Do you really expect them to transform into Faragists? Or (as I expect) for them to become increasingly resentful of what has been inflicted on them?
I expect them to move on just as the young people in the 1970s did.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
That's a fundamentally flawed argument as transition is basically equal to extension.
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
Surely the lesson is that young people care about housing and debt more than they care about the European Union?
The EU was a minor issue for almost everyone until Cameron called the referendum. The way the negotiations are going, everyone will care about it soon, and they won't be sympathetic to those who told them leaving the EU would improve their lives.
Surely the lesson is that young people care about housing and debt more than they care about the European Union?
The EU was a minor issue for almost everyone until Cameron called the referendum. The way the negotiations are going, everyone will care about it soon, and they won't be sympathetic to those who told them leaving the EU would improve their lives.
Nor will they be sympathetic to a union that is breaking its treaty obligations to a nation that has been bankrolling it for years....
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, which is why I expect young Britons to become more European in outlook over time, despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be accelerated by a felt grievance against the older generation that have excluded them from the mainstream of European life.
Well lets look at it from the other end
do their parents travel any less ? Do they have holidays and go to stag dos ? Do they have houses and flats in european countries ?
And yet they feel no more threatened by Europe than their kids, it's just with more experience they have drawn different conclusions.
Clearly there was a major generational split over Brexit, and one with no sign of shifting.
Do you really expect them to transform into Faragists? Or (as I expect) for them to become increasingly resentful of what has been inflicted on them?
I expect them to move on just as the young people in the 1970s did.
Surely the lesson is that young people care about housing and debt more than they care about the European Union?
The EU was a minor issue for almost everyone until Cameron called the referendum. The way the negotiations are going, everyone will care about it soon, and they won't be sympathetic to those who told them leaving the EU would improve their lives.
Nor will they be sympathetic to a union that is breaking its treaty obligations to a nation that has been bankrolling it for years....
May told them before she triggered Article 50 what the future framework would be: outside the single market and customs union. What a mess she's made of the whole thing...
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, so their European identities will not be curtailed.
these days theyre as likely to travel to Vietnam or India does that give them an Asian identity
Isn't "Freedom of movement" racist against citizens of non-EU nations?
Surely the lesson is that young people care about housing and debt more than they care about the European Union?
The EU was a minor issue for almost everyone until Cameron called the referendum. The way the negotiations are going, everyone will care about it soon, and they won't be sympathetic to those who told them leaving the EU would improve their lives.
Nor will they be sympathetic to a union that is breaking its treaty obligations to a nation that has been bankrolling it for years....
May told them before she triggered Article 50 what the future framework would be: outside the single market and customs union. What a mess she's made of the whole thing...
So? There is a treaty obligation to work for strong future close collaboration (I can't remember the terms, it's late and I'm on hols tomorrow), isn't there?
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, so their European identities will not be curtailed.
these days theyre as likely to travel to Vietnam or India does that give them an Asian identity
Isn't "Freedom of movement" racist against citizens of non-EU nations?
Surely the lesson is that young people care about housing and debt more than they care about the European Union?
The EU was a minor issue for almost everyone until Cameron called the referendum. The way the negotiations are going, everyone will care about it soon, and they won't be sympathetic to those who told them leaving the EU would improve their lives.
Nor will they be sympathetic to a union that is breaking its treaty obligations to a nation that has been bankrolling it for years....
May told them before she triggered Article 50 what the future framework would be: outside the single market and customs union. What a mess she's made of the whole thing...
So? There is a treaty obligation to work for strong future close collaboration (I can't remember the terms, it's late and I'm on hols tomorrow), isn't there?
There's an obligation to seek good relations with neighbouring countries not in the union. It's not related to withdrawal per se.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
That's a fundamentally flawed argument as transition is basically equal to extension.
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
Extension has to be approved by all EU27 for it to be extended.
By triggering A50 we set the clock ticking. There are two possible outcomes, deal or no deal. Deal may incorporate transition, but no deal does not.
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/was famously a dual national with a kaleidoscopic pedigree, but that passage raised my class hackles more than anything. It's as if he was saying, "How am I supposed to lead my people into battle against my nemesis's people if they too have complex identities and don't see the neighbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, so their European identities will not be curtailed.
these days theyre as likely to travel to Vietnam or India does that give them an Asian identity
Isn't "Freedom of movement" racist against citizens of non-EU nations?
Like Australians, Canadians and Americans etc?
And Chinese, Indians, Nigerians, Pakistanis, Vietnamese, etc?
I think the most interesting part of Boris' article was the fretting about the nascent European identity of younger Europeans.
I agree. A lot of people latched onto the hypocrisy as Boris is/waghbouring tribe as the enemy?"
Perhaps Boris was as much worried by our own emerging European idenity amongst the young:
" His complaint about the “split allegiances” of the “young people with the 12 stars lipsticked on their faces” may have appealed to the “Land of Hope and Glory” wing of the Tory party, but it will alienate the very people Johnson was once able to attract as Mayor of London."
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, so their European identities will not be curtailed.
these days theyre as likely to travel to Vietnam or India does that give them an Asian identity
Isn't "Freedom of movement" racist against citizens of non-EU nations?
I'm against freedom of movement for people from Yorkshire
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
The referendum result was as good as it got for the Leave contingent, so no wonder that's all they ever hark back to. There's been diddly squat to cheer about since then.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
The referendum result was as good as it got for the Leave contingent, so no wonder that's all they ever hark back to. There's been diddly squat to cheer about since then.
But I want out. I want out to live out my days in a responsive proper democracy, and I'm not optimistic about that in the EU.
Genuine question: do you think there are any proper democracies in the EU? Perhaps the most powerful like Germany, or the small like Luxembourg? In other words is there something unique about the UK that makes us unsuited to the EU, or do you think the whole think is an abomination?
the thing which marks out a democracy is a functioning opposition
the EU parlt doesnt have one
I just got back from Switzerland, a country I knew well but haven't been to much recently. I mention this because their system doesn't involve functioning oppositions, yet the country is typically held up as the most democratic of all.
Switzerland might seem the epitome of strong and stable where nothing much changes from one decade to the next. But there is a lot of tension bubbling away below the surface. There are religious, linguistic, historical and cultural differences, often at the commune level. There's little national demos, to use a term that gets bandied around on PB. It consists of a national flag that people are happy to put up next to those of their commune and canton, Migros supermarkets, a kind of vegan spice powder that they sprinkle their food with and a willingness to claim Roger Federer as their own, and that's about it for the collective national enterprise. In another context Switzerland could be a Yugoslavia. But it obviously isn't. The reason it isn't is because of an intense and continuing effort to compromise. The federal government exists essentially to resolve those tensions with regular constitutional tinkering and judicious allocation of federal moneys.
Yes, that's very well-described (and I'm a product of it, really, as I spent a lot of my adult life there). The presidential system is typical - the current president rotates each year among the governing parties, and many people struggle to remember who the current one is. Referenda come every 3 months with a leaflet to every household setting out the case for and against: many couples accordingly set aside four evenings a year to study the literature and decide.
It works very well, with very little demos, as you say. I'm not sure whether the civic-minded population are the chicken or the egg in this amicable arrangement.
I think the emerging Europeanisation of the young will continue despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be spurred on as part of generational grievances.
Only amongst the middle classes.
But of course, those are the only ones that lefties care about now, eh?
Not true.
75% of youngsters voted Remain, many of them working class. These are the people on stag weekends in Estonia or Prague, who summer in Ibiza or Malia. They see nothing to fear in the way Europeans live.
does travel stop when we leave ?
No, which is why I expect young Britons to become more European in outlook over time, despite Brexit. Indeed it may well be accelerated by a felt grievance against the older generation that have excluded them from the mainstream of European life.
Well lets look at it from the other end
do their parents travel any less ? Do they have holidays and go to stag dos ? Do they have houses and flats in european countries ?
And yet they feel no more threatened by Europe than their kids, it's just with more experience they have drawn different conclusions.
Clearly there was a major generational split over Brexit, and one with no sign of shifting.
Do you really expect them to transform into Faragists? Or (as I expect) for them to become increasingly resentful of what has been inflicted on them?
I expect them to do what previous age cohorts have done, and become more eurosceptic as they age.
In 1975, 61% of 18-29 year olds voted Remain. 41 years on, about 36% of the same group (now aged 59-70) did so.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
That's a fundamentally flawed argument as transition is basically equal to extension.
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
Extension has to be approved by all EU27 for it to be extended.
By triggering A50 we set the clock ticking. There are two possible outcomes, deal or no deal. Deal may incorporate transition, but no deal does not.
I repeat, no deal is in no-ones interest.
Malta are not going to say 'nah...' in 2019, are they?
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
The referendum result was as good as it got for the Leave contingent, so no wonder that's all they ever hark back to. There's been diddly squat to cheer about since then.
really ?
Osborne fked, Boris backwatered, record employment, continued growth etc,
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
That's a fundamentally flawed argument as transition is basically equal to extension.
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
Extension has to be approved by all EU27 for it to be extended.
By triggering A50 we set the clock ticking. There are two possible outcomes, deal or no deal. Deal may incorporate transition, but no deal does not.
I repeat, no deal is in no-ones interest.
Malta are not going to say 'nah...' in 2019, are they?
The EU27 position has been arrived at by consensus. This is a process that is slow, but very strong. In practice we have to decide if we accept the EU27 proposal, or to reject it and go for no deal. There is no prospect of splitting that EU27 consensus. Malta will vote the same way as Germany, after all that is what they have agreed already. The EU is a union and understands the power of solidarity.
They will not be punishing us. We chose this outcome.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
That's a fundamentally flawed argument as transition is basically equal to extension.
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
Extension has to be approved by all EU27 for it to be extended.
By triggering A50 we set the clock ticking. There are two possible outcomes, deal or no deal. Deal may incorporate transition, but no deal does not.
I repeat, no deal is in no-ones interest.
Malta are not going to say 'nah...' in 2019, are they?
What would the UK say if the terms were something like this?
- Settling of accounts, ~€50bn - Special status for Northern Ireland in the EU - Mutual citizens rights protected by treaty (no ECJ for GB) - Transition with status quo minus all representation and full annual payments - Commitment to work towards future FTA
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
That's a fundamentally flawed argument as transition is basically equal to extension.
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
Extension has to be approved by all EU27 for it to be extended.
By triggering A50 we set the clock ticking. There are two possible outcomes, deal or no deal. Deal may incorporate transition, but no deal does not.
I repeat, no deal is in no-ones interest.
Malta are not going to say 'nah...' in 2019, are they?
What would the UK say if the terms were something like this?
- Settling of accounts, ~€50bn - Special status for Northern Ireland in the EU - Mutual citizens rights protected by treaty (no ECJ for GB) - Transition with status quo minus all representation and full annual payments - Commitment to work towards future FTA
Hmm, the second point is the killer. No way the union is split like that.
Otherwise I wouldn't have a problem with it. Providing the transition has a time limit.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
That's a fundamentally flawed argument as transition is basically equal to extension.
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
Extension has to be approved by all EU27 for it to be extended.
By triggering A50 we set the clock ticking. There are two possible outcomes, deal or no deal. Deal may incorporate transition, but no deal does not.
I repeat, no deal is in no-ones interest.
Malta are not going to say 'nah...' in 2019, are they?
What would the UK say if the terms were something like this?
- Settling of accounts, ~€50bn - Special status for Northern Ireland in the EU - Mutual citizens rights protected by treaty (no ECJ for GB) - Transition with status quo minus all representation and full annual payments - Commitment to work towards future FTA
I suspect the DUP would veto 2 all the way down the river Bann.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
That's a fundamentally flawed argument as transition is basically equal to extension.
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
Extension has to be approved by all EU27 for it to be extended.
By triggering A50 we set the clock ticking. There are two possible outcomes, deal or no deal. Deal may incorporate transition, but no deal does not.
I repeat, no deal is in no-ones interest.
Malta are not going to say 'nah...' in 2019, are they?
What would the UK say if the terms were something like this?
- Settling of accounts, ~€50bn - Special status for Northern Ireland in the EU - Mutual citizens rights protected by treaty (no ECJ for GB) - Transition with status quo minus all representation and full annual payments - Commitment to work towards future FTA
I suspect the DUP would veto 2 all the way down the river Bann.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
That's a fundamentally flawed argument as transition is basically equal to extension.
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
Extension has to be approved by all EU27 for it to be extended.
By triggering A50 we set the clock ticking. There are two possible outcomes, deal or no deal. Deal may incorporate transition, but no deal does not.
I repeat, no deal is in no-ones interest.
Malta are not going to say 'nah...' in 2019, are they?
What would the UK say if the terms were something like this?
- Settling of accounts, ~€50bn - Special status for Northern Ireland in the EU - Mutual citizens rights protected by treaty (no ECJ for GB) - Transition with status quo minus all representation and full annual payments - Commitment to work towards future FTA
I suspect the DUP would veto 2 all the way down the river Bann.
It might depend how much of our money gets earmarked for them?
National vetos still exist in many areas. Trade agreements being perhaps the most pertinent perhaps, but also for accession.
QMV was pushed through by Maggie as part of her Single Market reforms. It is of our making.
As far as I know national vetoes do not exist for trade agreements. Only for the sorts of comprehensive agreements that go far beyond just trade. Indeed this was recently confirmed by an ECJ judgement.
National vetos still exist in many areas. Trade agreements being perhaps the most pertinent perhaps, but also for accession.
QMV was pushed through by Maggie as part of her Single Market reforms. It is of our making.
As far as I know national vetoes do not exist for trade agreements. Only for the sorts of comprehensive agreements that go far beyond just trade. Indeed this was recently confirmed by an ECJ judgement.
Yes I think that's right, but the Commission needs to get a mandate from the Council before entering into trade negotiations to begin with.
Can someone try and give us a view of what "no deal means" from the leave side, what do they actually think will happen. Remember no deal means nothing is agreed
I don't think anyone actively wants no deal, do they?
Au contraire! I get the impression that some Leavers are all up for WTO. Certainly Boris's recent actions I interpreted as supporting WTO and some of JRM's statements too and those pair are certainly not shy of supporters.
There are also plenty of PB Levears who seem to want Brexit at almost any cost and if that means WTO then so be it. I keep getting told that any pain is worth it as long as we take back control.
Going in to a transition period is a total no brainer, since we triggered article 50 without being prepared. It will be costly for us, so it cannot be an end state, but it helps everyone move on and removes the risk of a total crash. I don't understand what people are arguing about because they actually all want the same thing. It is symptomatic of the poisoned political discourse that people can't just agree that it is a good idea to have a transition period.
A transition deal only exists if a deal has been agreed. No deal means no transition, and that is the default.
That's a fundamentally flawed argument as transition is basically equal to extension.
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
Extension has to be approved by all EU27 for it to be extended.
By triggering A50 we set the clock ticking. There are two possible outcomes, deal or no deal. Deal may incorporate transition, but no deal does not.
I repeat, no deal is in no-ones interest.
Malta are not going to say 'nah...' in 2019, are they?
What would the UK say if the terms were something like this?
- Settling of accounts, ~€50bn - Special status for Northern Ireland in the EU - Mutual citizens rights protected by treaty (no ECJ for GB) - Transition with status quo minus all representation and full annual payments - Commitment to work towards future FTA
I suspect the DUP would veto 2 all the way down the river Bann.
It might depend how much of our money gets earmarked for them?
Dunno. They might see it as existential so money not a persuader. In fairness they may not if the streets of Antrim are paved with gold.
I expect them to do what previous age cohorts have done, and become more eurosceptic as they age.
In 1975, 61% of 18-29 year olds voted Remain. 41 years on, about 36% of the same group (now aged 59-70) did so.
Even if they don't become more eurosceptic with age, they have been motivated to vote. That's the most important thing.
The UK withdraws now, and suppose the young people do like it less & less as we go forward. So eventually there will be a whole-hearted consensus for joining the EU fully.
That will be a really good outcome, far better than a population which has been smothered into a union they don't want.
National vetos still exist in many areas. Trade agreements being perhaps the most pertinent perhaps, but also for accession.
QMV was pushed through by Maggie as part of her Single Market reforms. It is of our making.
As far as I know national vetoes do not exist for trade agreements. Only for the sorts of comprehensive agreements that go far beyond just trade. Indeed this was recently confirmed by an ECJ judgement.
I think the difference in veto depends whether a deal is part of Brexit (QMV) or post Brexit where national vetoes apply.
In practice it is a moot point, as the EU27 will approach this as a consensual body, so the distinction is likely to be trivial.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
The referendum result was as good as it got for the Leave contingent, so no wonder that's all they ever hark back to. There's been diddly squat to cheer about since then.
really ?
Osborne fked, Boris backwatered, record employment, continued growth etc,
seems ok so far
Ah yes, the vanquished, inconsequential Mr Osborne. I've never heard a Leaver even bother to mention him since.
I expect them to do what previous age cohorts have done, and become more eurosceptic as they age.
In 1975, 61% of 18-29 year olds voted Remain. 41 years on, about 36% of the same group (now aged 59-70) did so.
Even if they don't become more eurosceptic with age, they have been motivated to vote. That's the most important thing.
The UK withdraws now, and suppose the young people do like it less & less as we go forward. So eventually there will be a whole-hearted consensus for joining the EU fully.
That will be a really good outcome, far better than a population which has been smothered into a union they don't want.
Yes, that is the silver lining. When we restart the accession process, we will be going in with our eyes open.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
And if Leave had lost, Farage, Davis, JRM etc would never have raised the topic again, obviously.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
And if Leave had lost, Farage, Davis, JRM etc would never have raised the topic again, obviously.
The country is split over Brexit, with no sign of significant shift in opinion over the last year. That split will persist. As that split is so finely poised, and generational in aspect, then it is certain to arise again electorally.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
And if Leave had lost, Farage, Davis, JRM etc would never have raised the topic again, obviously.
The country is split over Brexit, with no sign of significant shift in opinion over the last year. That split will persist. As that split is so finely poised, and generational in aspect, then it is certain to arise again electorally.
Alternatively it will be history and forgotten as a live issue by 2021
It spends milliseconds in the daily consciousness of the average person.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
And if Leave had lost, Farage, Davis, JRM etc would never have raised the topic again, obviously.
The country is split over Brexit, with no sign of significant shift in opinion over the last year. That split will persist. As that split is so finely poised, and generational in aspect, then it is certain to arise again electorally.
Alternatively it will be history and forgotten as a live issue by 2021
If Brexit goes well, and I hope it does, then you'll probably be right; if it goes badly, and I fear it will, it will be the hottest of hot topics in 2021!
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
And if Leave had lost, Farage, Davis, JRM etc would never have raised the topic again, obviously.
Of course they wouldn't - actually I think Davis probably would. But they would be rightly reviled for seeking to overturn or frustrate a legitimate democratic decision.
I have all the time for people like Richard Navabi, SouthamObserver and even Alastair Meeks who accept the decision whilst still arguing it was wrong and will be to the detriment of the country. That is not what some true Remoaners are doing.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
Yes, but I m not one of those people. We voted for it as a nation, and I have said from Day One that we must own the result as a nation. I have accepted it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. There are some (not you) who use the result to close down debate, or hand wave away legitimate questions of genuine interest. It is also done when you say Labour have a point on tuition fees or housing. "But they didn't win, so there." It is not an argument. And it is bloody annoying.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
And if Leave had lost, Farage, Davis, JRM etc would never have raised the topic again, obviously.
I think Boris Gove and Farage would have preferred a narrow loss.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
And if Leave had lost, Farage, Davis, JRM etc would never have raised the topic again, obviously.
The country is split over Brexit, with no sign of significant shift in opinion over the last year. That split will persist. As that split is so finely poised, and generational in aspect, then it is certain to arise again electorally.
Alternatively it will be history and forgotten as a live issue by 2021
If Brexit goes well, and I hope it does, then you'll probably be right; if it goes badly, and I fear it will, it will be the hottest of hot topics in 2021!
If it goes wrong the focus will be on the cures for the situation, not the causes, I suspect.
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
I don't feel aggrieved about losing. That's democracy and there's no injustice in that. I think it will be a long, long time before I can ever come to terms with the result as it takes the country in directions that don't match my values - but I wouldn't want anyone to mistake my sadness for any sense of unfairness. I accept the result.
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
I don't feel aggrieved about losing. That's democracy and there's no injustice in that. I think it will be a long, long time before I can ever come to terms with the result as it takes the country in directions that don't match my values - but I wouldn't want anyone to mistake my sadness for any sense of unfairness. I accept the result.
Kudos - you have an attitude that should be applauded.
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
I don't feel aggrieved about losing. That's democracy and there's no injustice in that. I think it will be a long, long time before I can ever come to terms with the result as it takes the country in directions that don't match my values - but I wouldn't want anyone to mistake my sadness for any sense of unfairness. I accept the result.
It has changed my attitude to my country. It has made me less patriotic as I simply do not like the values that are driving the country the way it is going.
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
I don't feel aggrieved about losing. That's democracy and there's no injustice in that. I think it will be a long, long time before I can ever come to terms with the result as it takes the country in directions that don't match my values - but I wouldn't want anyone to mistake my sadness for any sense of unfairness. I accept the result.
It has changed my attitude to my country. It has made me less patriotic as I simply do not like the values that are driving the country the way it is going.
Absolutely baffling, by contrast. Same people, same values; you just didn't understand them before...
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
I don't feel aggrieved about losing. That's democracy and there's no injustice in that. I think it will be a long, long time before I can ever come to terms with the result as it takes the country in directions that don't match my values - but I wouldn't want anyone to mistake my sadness for any sense of unfairness. I accept the result.
It has changed my attitude to my country. It has made me less patriotic as I simply do not like the values that are driving the country the way it is going.
I would posit that the values of the country have hardly moved in twenty years.
It has changed my attitude to my country. It has made me less patriotic as I simply do not like the values that are driving the country the way it is going.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
No one feels aggrieved with the referendum result - Leave won and it's ancient history. It's the subsequent bungling that appals. Leave are divided, hopelessly confused and unable to take a lead on absolutely anything. In fact, this most critical of political developments in decades has become, in the hands of the chief Leavers, little more than the farcical psycho-drama of Boris Johnson's leadership ambitions. The Leavers have brought about something that is clearly beyond their capabilities to manage. It's depressing and grim.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
Yes, but I m not one of those people. We voted for it as a nation, and I have said from Day One that we must own the result as a nation. I have accepted it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. There are some (not you) who use the result to close down debate, or hand wave away legitimate questions of genuine interest. It is also done when you say Labour have a point on tuition fees or housing. "But they didn't win, so there." It is not an argument. And it is bloody annoying.
Do not let Sunil get to you.The official result Leave 51.89% Remain 48.11 %.Slightly better than his dodgy bar chart.
What a bizarre attitude. If Jeremy Corbyn becomes prime minister, it will not diminish my patriotism one jot. If anything, it will motivate me to resist our new Chavez-style regime to save the country from what it has voted for.
If you stop being a patriot because your team loses an election or referendum, I don't think you were a patriot in the first place.
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
I don't feel aggrieved about losing. That's democracy and there's no injustice in that. I think it will be a long, long time before I can ever come to terms with the result as it takes the country in directions that don't match my values - but I wouldn't want anyone to mistake my sadness for any sense of unfairness. I accept the result.
Kudos - you have an attitude that should be applauded.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
No one feels aggrieved with the referendum result - Leave won and it's ancient history. It's the subsequent bungling that appals. Leave are divided, hopelessly confused and unable to take a lead on absolutely anything. In fact, this most critical of political developments in decades has become, in the hands of the chief Leavers, little more than the farcical psycho-drama of Boris Johnson's leadership ambitions. The Leavers have brought about something that is clearly beyond their capabilities to manage. It's depressing and grim.
There is no such thing as a leave group with powers or influence now the referendum is over.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
No one feels aggrieved with the referendum result - Leave won and it's ancient history. It's the subsequent bungling that appals. Leave are divided, hopelessly confused and unable to take a lead on absolutely anything. In fact, this most critical of political developments in decades has become, in the hands of the chief Leavers, little more than the farcical psycho-drama of Boris Johnson's leadership ambitions. The Leavers have brought about something that is clearly beyond their capabilities to manage. It's depressing and grim.
There is no such thing as a leave group with powers or influence now the referendum is over.
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
I don't feel aggrieved about losing. That's democracy and there's no injustice in that. I think it will be a long, long time before I can ever come to terms with the result as it takes the country in directions that don't match my values - but I wouldn't want anyone to mistake my sadness for any sense of unfairness. I accept the result.
I'm inclined to think that, however much it damages us economically, the Leave vote was the only way to lance the boil of historic mishandling.
Over the 40 years we've been a member, the weight of opinion against the EU has been growing. What would have stopped it continuing to grow? A cohort of young people who saw no reason to go & vote?
Once we've actually left, we can move forward to a more consensual position. It should be easier for those who wish to rejoin to make the case in a positive light.
It will probably take more than a decade, but it will be much better to achieve a greater consensus.
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
No one feels aggrieved with the referendum result - Leave won and it's ancient history. It's the subsequent bungling that appals. Leave are divided, hopelessly confused and unable to take a lead on absolutely anything. In fact, this most critical of political developments in decades has become, in the hands of the chief Leavers, little more than the farcical psycho-drama of Boris Johnson's leadership ambitions. The Leavers have brought about something that is clearly beyond their capabilities to manage. It's depressing and grim.
Plenty of folk feel very aggrieved...Haven't you been glued to the Lib Dem conference?
What a bizarre attitude. If Jeremy Corbyn becomes prime minister, it will not diminish my patriotism one jot. If anything, it will motivate me to resist our new Chavez-style regime to save the country from what it has voted for.
If you stop being a patriot because your team loses an election or referendum, I don't think you were a patriot in the first place.
For once I can agree wholeheartedly with you! Second paragraph.
What a bizarre attitude. If Jeremy Corbyn becomes prime minister, it will not diminish my patriotism one jot. If anything, it will motivate me to resist our new Chavez-style regime to save the country from what it has voted for.
If you stop being a patriot because your team loses an election or referendum, I don't think you were a patriot in the first place.
For once I can agree wholeheartedly with you! Second paragraph.
Brexit is hard, for sure, and very risky, certainly.
All the same, the anti-government, anti-Theresa May hysteria is getting so over-the-top that expectations are being calibrated at such a low level that any outcome short of the four horsemen of the apocalypse laying waste to the City, the whore of Babylon bidding for refuse collection in Birmingham, and the Beast rising out of the sea to ravage Blackpool is going to look like a triumph. Since I think there's only about a 10% chance of the four horsemen appearing, we should bear in mind the possibility that the political risk is on the upside for the government.
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
I don't feel aggrieved about losing. That's democracy and there's no injustice in that. I think it will be a long, long time before I can ever come to terms with the result as it takes the country in directions that don't match my values - but I wouldn't want anyone to mistake my sadness for any sense of unfairness. I accept the result.
I'm inclined to think that, however much it damages us economically, the Leave vote was the only way to lance the boil of historic mishandling.
Over the 40 years we've been a member, the weight of opinion against the EU has been growing. What would have stopped it continuing to grow? A cohort of young people who saw no reason to go & vote?
Once we've actually left, we can move forward to a more consensual position. It should be easier for those who wish to rejoin to make the case in a positive light.
It will probably take more than a decade, but it will be much better to achieve a greater consensus.
It was only growing in the press and you know who owns them (i.e. a really old person). It's only the old or those trapped in a historic mindset who voted no. Reading what I see here I'm pretty sure that I can sell a few tulip bulbs to most of you. I've got a few blue ones spare, how apt!
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
No one feels aggrieved with the referendum result - Leave won and it's ancient history. It's the subsequent bungling that appals. Leave are divided, hopelessly confused and unable to take a lead on absolutely anything. In fact, this most critical of political developments in decades has become, in the hands of the chief Leavers, little more than the farcical psycho-drama of Boris Johnson's leadership ambitions. The Leavers have brought about something that is clearly beyond their capabilities to manage. It's depressing and grim.
It is depressing, but Leave was only ever a single-issue campaign, not even a political party.
Mr Cameron was right to resign, simply because he utterly failed in his duty to make contingency plans.
What a bizarre attitude. If Jeremy Corbyn becomes prime minister, it will not diminish my patriotism one jot. If anything, it will motivate me to resist our new Chavez-style regime to save the country from what it has voted for.
If you stop being a patriot because your team loses an election or referendum, I don't think you were a patriot in the first place.
Identity, and patriotism is an aspect of identity, is rooted in values and culture.
How do you feel when you find that what you believe is not shared by your countrymen (though Leicester did vote Remain)?
The values persist, but are now shown to be discordant with a majority, rather than a minority. Hence I feel less in common with my country, and less patriotic. How will that manifest? At the moment, I am not in a position to change either my own or the national situation.
A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
Otherwise, I may well take retirement as soon as I can, and leave for somewhere more congenial.
A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
I'm impressed that you can tell the difference between a Labour Brexit and the government's version. No-one else can.
Brexit is hard, for sure, and very risky, certainly.
All the same, the anti-government, anti-Theresa May hysteria is getting so over-the-top that expectations are being calibrated at such a low level that any outcome short of the four horsemen of the apocalypse laying waste to the City, the whore of Babylon bidding for refuse collection in Birmingham, and the Beast rising out of the sea to ravage Blackpool is going to look like a triumph. Since I think there's only about a 10% chance of the four horsemen appearing, we should bear in mind the possibility that the political risk is on the upside for the government.
I've actually detected a slight shift in recent days and some sympathy towards Theresa. It's Boris who everything now thinks is the prize twonk. Theresa has a golden opportunity to turn things round this Friday: utterly disavow Boris's dangerous hard-Brexit rabble rousing and propose a sensible, pragmatic compromise that will re-engage us with our EU friends. If Boris wants to resign let him; he's damaged goods anyway. That might save us from compete catastrophe.
I have all the time for people like Richard Navabi, SouthamObserver and even Alastair Meeks who accept the decision whilst still arguing it was wrong and will be to the detriment of the country. That is not what some true Remoaners are doing.
I am bemused by this construction. Unless you are claiming that some people are actually denying reality, everyone accepts the decision. It happened. It cannot unhappen.
That being said, Brexit was a bad idea before the vote, and remains a bad idea after the vote. It's not unpatriotic, or a rejection of the decision to say so. And keep saying so.
It's the people who say just cos other people voted for it makes it a good idea that baffle me.
It was a dumb idea. It is a dumb idea. It will always be a dumb idea.
Wishing it well will not make it work. Handwaving will not make it great. Brexiteers who answer every question about how to make it work with the line "but we have to do it" are the true saboteurs.
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
I don't feel aggrieved about losing. That's democracy and there's no injustice in that. I think it will be a long, long time before I can ever come to terms with the result as it takes the country in directions that don't match my values - but I wouldn't want anyone to mistake my sadness for any sense of unfairness. I accept the result.
It has changed my attitude to my country. It has made me less patriotic as I simply do not like the values that are driving the country the way it is going.
Absolutely baffling, by contrast. Same people, same values; you just didn't understand them before...
Perhaps you are right. Perhaps I did not understand them beforehand, but I understand them better now and I cannot say that I like the result of the clarification. I had thought better of us as a nation....
As regards my view of the referendum - I was a fence-sitter who spent years slightly more on the "Leave" side who, when push came to shove, actually looked at the consequences and decided that "Remain" was less damaging.
Now I see our govt blundering towards the exit with no apparent consideration of the effects it will have and, quite frankly, I am appalled. Utterly despondent that we are on the verge of colossal self-harm and no one in government seems to worry.
I appreciate that no one wants to be re-run the referendum so I do not put the case that it should be re-run. Instead I have decided to insulate myself and my family as much as possible from the effects of Brexit and that is my focus.
A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
I'm impressed that you can tell the difference between a Labour Brexit and the government's version. No-one else can.
Labour brexit is perfect for those who dislike Tories....
Otherwise, doesn't it change depending on how many times Jezza has spoken on the telly box in a day?
Brexit is hard, for sure, and very risky, certainly.
All the same, the anti-government, anti-Theresa May hysteria is getting so over-the-top that expectations are being calibrated at such a low level that any outcome short of the four horsemen of the apocalypse laying waste to the City, the whore of Babylon bidding for refuse collection in Birmingham, and the Beast rising out of the sea to ravage Blackpool is going to look like a triumph. Since I think there's only about a 10% chance of the four horsemen appearing, we should bear in mind the possibility that the political risk is on the upside for the government.
I've actually detected a slight shift in recent days and some sympathy towards Theresa. It's Boris who everything now thinks is the prize twonk. Theresa has a golden opportunity to turn things round this Friday: utterly disavow Boris's dangerous hard-Brexit rabble rousing and propose a sensible, pragmatic compromise that will re-engage us with our EU friends. If Boris wants to resign let him; he's damaged goods anyway. That might save us from compete catastrophe.
Remember the golden rule of Brexit. Everything that heartens those who oppose it comes back to hurt the Remain cause.
Why would we go for soft Brexit now, after Lancaster House speech and position papers? It would be lunacy.
Brexit is hard, for sure, and very risky, certainly.
All the same, the anti-government, anti-Theresa May hysteria is getting so over-the-top that expectations are being calibrated at such a low level that any outcome short of the four horsemen of the apocalypse laying waste to the City, the whore of Babylon bidding for refuse collection in Birmingham, and the Beast rising out of the sea to ravage Blackpool is going to look like a triumph. Since I think there's only about a 10% chance of the four horsemen appearing, we should bear in mind the possibility that the political risk is on the upside for the government.
I've actually detected a slight shift in recent days and some sympathy towards Theresa. It's Boris who everything now thinks is the prize twonk. Theresa has a golden opportunity to turn things round this Friday: utterly disavow Boris's dangerous hard-Brexit rabble rousing and propose a sensible, pragmatic compromise that will re-engage us with our EU friends. If Boris wants to resign let him; he's damaged goods anyway. That might save us from compete catastrophe.
I think that's right. In the last few days Theresa May seems to have slightly recovered her mojo, maybe precisely because of Boris. She seems to be taking control again, and, amazingly, has even got some favourable coverage from the Evening Standard. The Conservative Party seems to have been goaded into at least a show of unity by the intervention of Boris.
It might not last, of course, and to a large extent it's a sideshow compared with the core issues of the negotiation and the attitudes of the various players in the EU. But there too there seems to be a bit of a change of tone and a smidgen of recognition of reality.
We shall see. Lots of people tell us with great certainty how it will all turn out. "I wish I were as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything."
We all know the referendum result... Your side won, my side lost. I wish someone would confiscate that jar of salt that you keep pouring into our open wounds though... I say this as a Remain voter who accepts the result but is still very upset by it. You really don't make it easy for us to move on.
Could not agree more.
I have genuine sympathy for those who lost as I can easily imagine how I would feel were the situation reversed. But the salt is not brought out to pour on your wounds. It is used becausevfar too many Remain voters have decided to try and circumvent, reverse or discredit the referendum result. This is not just a case of expressong their dismay - that is entirely understandable. But it is the refusal to accept the legitimacy of the vote and to do everything to stop it being fulfilled which is beyond the pale.
When it comes to losing, I've been there and done that. One feels aggrieved. But, one just has to get over it.
It is not the losing that irks me. It is our govts dedication and commitment to national self-harm that irritates me.
Brexit is hard, for sure, and very risky, certainly.
All the same, the anti-government, anti-Theresa May hysteria is getting so over-the-top that expectations are being calibrated at such a low level that any outcome short of the four horsemen of the apocalypse laying waste to the City, the whore of Babylon bidding for refuse collection in Birmingham, and the Beast rising out of the sea to ravage Blackpool is going to look like a triumph. Since I think there's only about a 10% chance of the four horsemen appearing, we should bear in mind the possibility that the political risk is on the upside for the government.
I've actually detected a slight shift in recent days and some sympathy towards Theresa. It's Boris who everything now thinks is the prize twonk. Theresa has a golden opportunity to turn things round this Friday: utterly disavow Boris's dangerous hard-Brexit rabble rousing and propose a sensible, pragmatic compromise that will re-engage us with our EU friends. If Boris wants to resign let him; he's damaged goods anyway. That might save us from compete catastrophe.
You refer to "our EU friends", but the Brexit vote and proceeding with A50 is a rebuttal of friendship with the EU27. The UK cannot expect to be regarded by the EU any differently to Russia, the other major European country which is outside the EU, doesn't desire to join the EU and is hostile to it.
The UK cannot expect to be regarded by the EU any differently to Russia, the other major European country which is outside the EU, doesn't desire to join the EU and is hostile to it.
Fair enough.
So, like Russia, we pay them zero, don't give their citizens any special rights, and don't engage in any special cooperation over security. What more is there to discuss?
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do their parents travel any less ? Do they have holidays and go to stag dos ? Do they have houses and flats in european countries ?
And yet they feel no more threatened by Europe than their kids, it's just with more experience they have drawn different conclusions.
There was also an inverse geographic relationship between house prices and voting leave.
it;s the EU not the EC
Remain: 26%
Leave: 10%
Can't be arsed: 64%
So 74% of young people either wanted to Leave or can't be arsed to vote. Can't really blame the elderly for the decision then.
Do you really expect them to transform into Faragists? Or (as I expect) for them to become increasingly resentful of what has been inflicted on them?
I simply look at how people change their views as they get older and wiser
when I was 18, I was very pro european, as time went on I picked up 5 or 6 european languages and have lived in France and Germany for the best part of 8 years. I voted Leave as my views on what Europe means for us changed with experience.
They did not on June 23rd when the EU was the issue being voted on.
Surely the lesson is that young people care about housing and debt more than they care about the European Union?
No deal is in no-one's interest unless the EU are going against treaty obligations and trying to keep us in against our will...
By triggering A50 we set the clock ticking. There are two possible outcomes, deal or no deal. Deal may incorporate transition, but no deal does not.
It works very well, with very little demos, as you say. I'm not sure whether the civic-minded population are the chicken or the egg in this amicable arrangement.
they nod their heads when their remainer dads bang on relentlessly about it but in real life they worry about i phones, totty, social media and money,
and so they should
In 1975, 61% of 18-29 year olds voted Remain. 41 years on, about 36% of the same group (now aged 59-70) did so.
Malta are not going to say 'nah...' in 2019, are they?
Osborne fked, Boris backwatered, record employment, continued growth etc,
seems ok so far
They will not be punishing us. We chose this outcome.
- Settling of accounts, ~€50bn
- Special status for Northern Ireland in the EU
- Mutual citizens rights protected by treaty (no ECJ for GB)
- Transition with status quo minus all representation and full annual payments
- Commitment to work towards future FTA
Otherwise I wouldn't have a problem with it. Providing the transition has a time limit.
he voted Leave
The UK withdraws now, and suppose the young people do like it less & less as we go forward. So eventually there will be a whole-hearted consensus for joining the EU fully.
That will be a really good outcome, far better than a population which has been smothered into a union they don't want.
In practice it is a moot point, as the EU27 will approach this as a consensual body, so the distinction is likely to be trivial.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/20/exclusive-philip-hammonds-brexit-manoeuvres-risk-bad-deal-nick/
It spends milliseconds in the daily consciousness of the average person.
I have all the time for people like Richard Navabi, SouthamObserver and even Alastair Meeks who accept the decision whilst still arguing it was wrong and will be to the detriment of the country. That is not what some true Remoaners are doing.
There are some (not you) who use the result to close down debate, or hand wave away legitimate questions of genuine interest.
It is also done when you say Labour have a point on tuition fees or housing.
"But they didn't win, so there."
It is not an argument.
And it is bloody annoying.
If you stop being a patriot because your team loses an election or referendum, I don't think you were a patriot in the first place.
Over the 40 years we've been a member, the weight of opinion against the EU has been growing. What would have stopped it continuing to grow? A cohort of young people who saw no reason to go & vote?
Once we've actually left, we can move forward to a more consensual position. It should be easier for those who wish to rejoin to make the case in a positive light.
It will probably take more than a decade, but it will be much better to achieve a greater consensus.
All the same, the anti-government, anti-Theresa May hysteria is getting so over-the-top that expectations are being calibrated at such a low level that any outcome short of the four horsemen of the apocalypse laying waste to the City, the whore of Babylon bidding for refuse collection in Birmingham, and the Beast rising out of the sea to ravage Blackpool is going to look like a triumph. Since I think there's only about a 10% chance of the four horsemen appearing, we should bear in mind the possibility that the political risk is on the upside for the government.
Mr Cameron was right to resign, simply because he utterly failed in his duty to make contingency plans.
How do you feel when you find that what you believe is not shared by your countrymen (though Leicester did vote Remain)?
The values persist, but are now shown to be discordant with a majority, rather than a minority. Hence I feel less in common with my country, and less patriotic. How will that manifest? At the moment, I am not in a position to change either my own or the national situation.
A collapse of the Tory government, to be replaced by a Corbyn one would restore my faith to a degree, as the Labour Brexit is more aligned to my values.
Otherwise, I may well take retirement as soon as I can, and leave for somewhere more congenial.
That being said, Brexit was a bad idea before the vote, and remains a bad idea after the vote. It's not unpatriotic, or a rejection of the decision to say so. And keep saying so.
It's the people who say just cos other people voted for it makes it a good idea that baffle me.
It was a dumb idea. It is a dumb idea. It will always be a dumb idea.
Wishing it well will not make it work. Handwaving will not make it great. Brexiteers who answer every question about how to make it work with the line "but we have to do it" are the true saboteurs.
As regards my view of the referendum - I was a fence-sitter who spent years slightly more on the "Leave" side who, when push came to shove, actually looked at the consequences and decided that "Remain" was less damaging.
Now I see our govt blundering towards the exit with no apparent consideration of the effects it will have and, quite frankly, I am appalled. Utterly despondent that we are on the verge of colossal self-harm and no one in government seems to worry.
I appreciate that no one wants to be re-run the referendum so I do not put the case that it should be re-run. Instead I have decided to insulate myself and my family as much as possible from the effects of Brexit and that is my focus.
I am "happy" to watch the whole thing unfold.
Otherwise, doesn't it change depending on how many times Jezza has spoken on the telly box in a day?
Why would we go for soft Brexit now, after Lancaster House speech and position papers? It would be lunacy.
It might not last, of course, and to a large extent it's a sideshow compared with the core issues of the negotiation and the attitudes of the various players in the EU. But there too there seems to be a bit of a change of tone and a smidgen of recognition of reality.
We shall see. Lots of people tell us with great certainty how it will all turn out. "I wish I were as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything."
So, like Russia, we pay them zero, don't give their citizens any special rights, and don't engage in any special cooperation over security. What more is there to discuss?